Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

[Bill Seidler]

This is asking a lot, but I am hoping someone will take up interest and offer me an opinion or guidance.  I suspect my wife's 2d Great Grandfather left the Azores in the 1860s and ended up in New Zealand.  

He is mentioned on his last child's baptism (João)  in 1854.  Then he is the father of the groom on the same child's marriage in 1882.  It does not say he was absent, but I don't think it would since the groom was of age.  If my theory is correct he would have already been gone.  He is also mentioned as the paternal grandfather on the baptisms of the four children of his son João.  His first son, Manuel, left around 1869 and ended up in Sacramento, CA under the name Manuel J. Lamb.  His second son died as an infant.

He is next mentioned in his wife's (Maria Isabel) Obit which states that she is still married to Francisco José Cordeiro.  It confirms that she is leaving two sons which concurs with the baptisms and obit I have found for their children.

Then on the list of inventories available on Sãojorgegenealogy.org (image attached), her son João (Manuel was already in Sacramento) is listed as the one doing the inventory.  Would this have been her husband if he were present?  If the theory I am attempting to test in true, her husband was already married to someone else in New Zealand by this time.  In New Zealand, Francis Joseph (who I suspect is Francisco José Cordeiro) reported that he was married before but was widowed. 

My wife is a close DNA match to descendants of the Francis Joseph in New Zealand.  There is one descendant of Antonio José Cordeiro (Francisco's father on Gracioisa) that matches both my wife and the descendants of Francis Joseph in New Zealand.

I have attached links to the CCA records that tracked Francisco José Cordeiro to the extent I was able and a .jpg image in the inventory list for any that would be willing to help me sort this out.

His baptism in 1828 São Mateus da Praia, Graciosa: (Francisco, starting just below top right).

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1826-1833/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1826-1833_item1/P30.html

His marriage in 1849 in São Sebastião, Ponta Delgada, S. Miguel (starts bottom left)

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SMG-PD-SAOSEBASTIAO-C-1841-1854/SMG-PD-SAOSEBASTIAO-C-1841-1854_item1/P121.html

First child baptism in 1849 São Mateus da Praia, Graciosa (starts bottom right)

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1841-1855/GRA-SC-SAOMATEUS-B-1841-1855_item1/P179.html

Second child baptism in 1852 Urzelina, São Jorge (Third on left)

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1841-1855_item1/P82.html

Second child’s obit in Urzelina a month later: (second on right)

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1841-1858_item1/P41.html

Third child’s baptism in 1854 in Urzelina (bottom left)

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1855-1860/SJR-VL-URZELINA-B-1855-1860_item1/P14.html

Third child’s marriage in 1882 in Urzelina (left side)

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-C-1880-1889/SJR-VL-URZELINA-C-1880-1889_item1/P24.html

Wife’s obit in 1901 in Urzelina (bottom right)

http://culturacores.azores.gov.pt/biblioteca_digital/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1900-1911/SJR-VL-URZELINA-O-1900-1911_item1/P14.html

Thanks to anyone who just took the time to read this.

Bill Seidler

[Anthony Silver]

what are the names in that second column ?

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From: azo...@googlegroups.com <azo...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Bill Seidler <bsei...@gmail.com>
Sent: Friday, 17 January 2020 3:45 PM
To: Azores Genealogy <azo...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

 

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[Cheri Mello]

Bill S,

Can you also attach a family group sheet for this family? It would make it a bit easier to follow. Thanks! Cheri

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Bill Seidler]

Thanks for the suggestion Cheri.  Is this what you meant (I'm a newbie at genealogy software).

Bill

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[linda]

Hi Bill,

Just some thoughts:

Have you tried drawing out timelines for your Francisco Jose Cordeiro and for the NZ Francisco Jose?  Sometimes that helps clarify things. 

What documents exist for the New Zealand Francisco Jose? 

I'm struck by how much Francisco Jose and Maria Isabel seemed to be moving around.  I'd look at a timeline of events in the Azores to see if there might be external reasons for their island hopping.  Personal/economic reasons would be harder to identify-- not that this would help you figure it out, but I like to think about context...  I also think it's interesting that Maria is significantly older than Francisco and that their first child is born only about 5 months after the wedding.   And that he was only in his late 20's when he may have vanished from the Azorean records. 

You don't explicitly say, but I assume you haven't found an obit for Francisco Jose, and you're trying to use other evidence to confirm his presence or absence in the Azores? 

Circumstantial evidence and supposition aside, the DNA links seem compelling.  Is there another way to explain them?

I doubt there's anything here you haven't already considered, but maybe it will spark an idea.

What an interesting mystery!

best of luck,

Linda

[Bill Seidler]

Thank you Linda, your insight is always appreciated and helpful.  Sorry for the delay in responding.  You are correct that I search for an Azorean obit for him.  I looked through 1911 in Urzelina where he last lived and in Praia, Graciosa where he was born.  The DNA evidence coupled with the name and occupation circumstance seems very compelling.  Another coincidence is that the New Bedford Whaling Museum database show that the was a crew member on a Whaler in 1867 named Francisco Jose Cordeiro from Sao Jorge, Azores, whose job was "cooper".

Attached are timelines of what I have for him in the Azores and what Tony (my New Zealand contact) provided from his records.

Thanks again,

Bill

[JesseAndDeborah Mendonca]

Bill,

I have nothing to add except to tell you that you are a masterful researcher.  The way you connect with people is a lesson in itself.   

Debbie

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[Margaret Vicente]

Hi Bill,

You’ve built a strong case.  I’m addressing your question in your opening email “if the husband and not the son should have been named on the inventory” because I think this a key question to the answer you seek.  According to my own experience the answer is, yes, it should be the husband, unless he is deceased, incapacitated or is absent. 

The list is actually an index of Judicial Processes related to inheritances [orfanologico] related to minors or absent heirs.  One other type shown on the page, lists reason as ‘emancipation. ‘

Maria Isabel’s son was cited as the head of the couple.  Orfanologico Inventories, were destined for the protection of minors or heirs that may have not been present at the time of death.  The brother Manuel was absent and the answer that you seek regarding the husband Francisco Jose should make part of the Judicial findings.

The left side columns list the process number and its location in the public library or its respective registry.  Use the information to order your copies.

It should contain:

• Declarations from the head of the couple [this declaration should identify all the heirs and related persons]
• Related assets [ identification of assets for division amongst heirs]
• Conference/Meeting of the Interested parties
• Map of inheritance divisions [ here it states who gets what]
• Sentence [judicial decision]

 

Margaret v

From: Bill Seidler
Sent: January 17, 2020 6:45 PM
To: Azores Genealogy
Subject: [AZORES-Genealogy] Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

 

This is asking a lot, but I am hoping someone will take up interest and offer me an opinion or guidance.  I suspect my wife's 2d Great Grandfather left the Azores in the 1860s and ended up in New Zealand.  

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[Bill Seidler]

Hello Margaret, once again thank you very much.  

I am strongly leaning toward concluding that Francis and Francisco are the same person, but I would like to feel I have eliminated other possibilities to whatever extent possible. 

I am hoping to visit Terceira and São Jorge later this year, but just in case I don't make it, can you tell me how I might order a copy of the inventory? 

Bill 

[Margaret Vicente]

Hello Bill,

Here is the information:

Biblioteca Pública e Arquivo Regional de Angra do Heroísmo - ilhas Terceira, Graciosa e São Jorge |

Endereço eletrónico: bparah....@azores.gov.pt

Margaret v

From: Bill Seidler
Sent: January 22, 2020 10:08 PM
To: Azores Genealogy

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[Brian Margarit]

Hi Bill,

I wish I could've seen this sooner.

I'm still in the process of getting everything together on MyHeritage and can let you know so you can match up.

I have a very abridged timeline for you since I know you have a lot of this information.  This is just base facts for you.

Carpenter

Born in 1828 (Santa Cruz) died 1887 (Urzelina)

Married Maria Isabel in Ponta Delgado 1849 but they lived in Santa Cruz still.  My grandmother said it was "because no one could marry them on the island".  That's the extent of the reasoning that I know or have found.

Lean crops & small famine in Graciosa and death of their son Joao as a result, prompted their move to Sao Jorge.  The family lore is that they were supposed to go to Faial, but couldn't for some reason.  

Francisco dies in 1887, Urzelina.  My aunt has two photos from 1910 of his gravestone in Sao Mateus cemetery, as well as another Cordeiro that I've never been able to make out the first name or dates for. 

I don't have any information of a Francis Cordeiro, he's not in the records I have of the family.   

If you have any more questions, you know how to reach me.  I'll be going to Sao Jorge, Graciosa and Terceira in two months and will be covering all parishes.

- Brian

On Wednesday, 22 January 2020 22:31:49 UTC-5, Mara wrote:

Hello Bill,

Here is the information:

Biblioteca Pública e Arquivo Regional de Angra do Heroísmo - ilhas Terceira, Graciosa e São Jorge |

Endereço eletrónico: bparah.arquivo@azores.gov.pt

Margaret v

From: Bill Seidler
Sent: January 22, 2020 10:08 PM
To: Azores Genealogy
Subject: Re: [AZORES-Genealogy] Tracing Francisco José Cordeiro

 

Hello Margaret, once again thank you very much.  

 

I am strongly leaning toward concluding that Francis and Francisco are the same person, but I would like to feel I have eliminated other possibilities to whatever extent possible. 

 

I am hoping to visit Terceira and São Jorge later this year, but just in case I don't make it, can you tell me how I might order a copy of the inventory? 

 

Bill 

 

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[Brian Margarit]

I forgot to mention - Maria was pregnant at the time of her marriage.  The Ponta Delgado locale, I've always assumed, is because the priest in Guadalupe wouldnt marry them because of that.  Who knows, though.

[Bill Seidler]

I have some issues with your timeline, especially concerning Francisco's 1887 death.  I sent a message to your email.

Bill

[linda]

Thanks Bill S. and Brian M.,

I enjoyed spending some time last week looking at your records and thinking about this couple.  To help me envision where they were in their first years together, I printed out a map and added some arrows.

(I can't seem to attach or insert the map... try this: https://drive.google.com/open?id=1AEyfltgiF106yoPM1awIJEuUM4JKCHM2 )

According to their (self-reported) marriage record:

1847: Maria was in Urzelina; Francisco was on Graciosa
1848: Maria was in Urzelina: Francisco was on Graciosa
1849: Maria was in Ponta Delgada; Francisco was in Ponta Delgada

Lent in 1849 was between 22 February and 8 Easter (give or take a day-- the date conversion program I used had a problem plotting the 19th dates on the calendar)
Maria's conception date was probably between 21 to 28 March 1849 (using Manuel's birth/baptismal dates and assuming the pregnancy carried to a normal term)

So, Maria and Francisco conceived their first child during Lent in 1849.  According to their marriage record, that Lenten season they were both in Ponta Delgada (economic migration?).

But, it crossed my mind to wonder if the couple went to Ponta Delgada -- the largest town on the most populous island-- to mitigate the scandal of a hasty marriage and a very "short" pregnancy.   Maria would have realized and become certain that she was pregnant in April/May.  The marriage would then have had to have been arranged between late April and late June/early July because the marriage banns would have been read at the end of June or beginning of July before they were able to wed.

Utter speculation, but I enjoyed thinking about it, and I hope you don't mind me gossiping about them.  No disrespect intended.

best wishes,

Linda

[Brian Margarit]

Hey Linda,

I appreciate you looking into it!

The running story in our family was that no one on Graciosa would marry them (whatever that means) and she was indeed pregnant at the time.  With Graciosa being so insular and small, it's a very convincing theory that they may have had to leave

[Bill Seidler]

Sorry but in my memory I co-mingled some whaling crew entries.  There are many Francis Joseph, Francisco Jose, or other iterations in the whaling crew database.  Many can be eliminated by age or residence.  I also eliminated any entry before 1855 since he was listed as a carpenter and not a mariner his son's baptisms that year.  That left several that didn't have enough data to be eliminated, but two that had additional data consistent with being my Francisco Jose.  It was these two I co-mingled.  First was 1855 on the Ship Seconet who was listed as a COOPER but it did not give his age or residence.  A cooper would be consistent with Francisco Jose being a carpenter and with Francis Joseph in New Zealand being a cooper.  The second was a Francis Joseph on the Bark Gazelle in 1870 which gives his age as 43 and his residence as Sao Jorge, Azores.  Either or both of these could fit (or not) my wife's ancestor.

Bill Seidler

[linda]

Probably this is the source for that info in the database about the Gazelle, 1870:

https://www.worldcat.org/title/logbook-of-the-ship-gazelle-1870-oct-26-1872-nov-28/oclc/71254679&referer=brief_results

I can't see where the logbook itself is held, but it must still exist.

It seems that the whaling museum has a logbook database in an excel file (hope this link will work):

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=16&ved=2ahUKEwik0OSjx6TnAhWhna0KHcvrA3AQFjAPegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.whalingmuseum.org%2Fsites%2Fdefault%2Ffiles%2FDocuments%2FLogbook%2520Database%2520Master_web.xls&usg=AOvVaw3aUTqkSiGAaEq18He9SVHv

It comes up near the top of a google search on the terms

ship seconet logbook 1855

I have to run, but hope this provides a lead. 

:)

Linda

[Cheri Mello]

I looked up a calendar for 1849 and yes, Lent would have been from 22 February and 8 April (Easter Sunday). You couldn't marry during Lent. However, it didn't matter where you married, as the marriage banns had to be posted at both the bride and groom's home churches. Maybe they moved around trying to conceive her pregnancy (that's a bit expensive), but a possibility.

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[linda]

Thanks Cheri!

I'm sure you're right, and that there were other factors that determined why they ended up on S. Miguel for the wedding.  Such a mystery!

:D

Linda

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[linda]

So, I have a general question about Azorean whalers and Portuguese passports.  Does anyone know whether passports were taken -- or at least supposed to be taken-- by the men shipping out on the American (and other) whale ships of the 19th century. 

If so, those records might be worth going through for another clue about Francisco Jose Cordeiro.

Last night in my local TV market, Genealogy Roadshow repeated the episode (season 3, Providence, RI) which has the segment with the family descended from an Azorean whale man.  In that case, the whaler emigrated to the US in the 1860's (thus his Passport entry) and was based there, but it caused me to wonder whether men based in the Azores would also have had to have documents to work the ships.

:)

just wondering,

Linda

[Cheri Mello]

Something tells me that *most* whalers are not on listed on the passaportes. I can't remember why I think that. Maybe when I was bugging Paul Cyr in New Bedford for information?

I do know that these sites list the crewmen on the whaling ships. I'm sure they are NOT comprehensive. They are American based.

From the New Bedford Public Library:

https://www.newbedford-ma.gov/library/whaling-database/

From the New Bedford Whaling Museum:

https://www.whalingmuseum.org/online_exhibits/crewlist/

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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[Bill Seidler]

My understanding is the same as Cheri's and a I am also unable to source what brought me to that understanding.  I am sure I read somewhere that the whalers would stop by the island after leaving New Bedford to take on crew and that there were no emigration documents.

I have contacted the New Bedford Whaling Museum who referred me to the Special Collections section of the New Bedford Public Library where many ship logbooks are kept on microfilm.  They provided me with some details from index cards about Manuel J. Cordeiro (possibly the son of Francisco) but they did not include age or birthplace.  They said the full logbook for that voyage is available at their library on microfilm, but they cannot perform extended research.  They gave me a list of local researchers that are familiar with their research resources but I haven't contacted any yet.

Bill Seidler 

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[linda]

Thank you both.

That's what I suspected-- "Papers? We don't need no stinkin' papers!"

:D

Linda 

[bsei.azo...@gmail.com]

Just in case anyone is interested in an update, I accessed Maria Isabel's 1901 inventory in Angra's archive which gave contradictory information.  The cover said she was a widow; but the first document inside was a certificate of her obit that said she was still married to Francisco Jose Cordeiro.  Francisco and Isabel's son Joao was named the head of the family for the inventory and he reported that his father died sometime in the past, had nothing, and did not do an inventory.  No records were offered to substantiate his claim.  

I then accessed the inventory of Antonio Jose Cordeiro, the father of Francisco that died in 1881 on Graciosa.  It named Antonio's living children from his first two wives and named his third wife that he married at 75 years old and had no children. It also stated that four of the children, including Francisco, could not be located.  it had copies of a newspaper dated 30 days apart that announced the death of Antonio and that the whereabouts of Francisco and the others was being sought.  In a page specifically about Francisco it stipulated that they made contact with his wife, Maria Isabel, in Urzelina on Sao Jorge Island but she reported that he went to America and his whereabouts were unknown.  Maria Isabel then named her brother-in-law on Graciosa to be her power of attorney for the inventory.

This shows that Francisco was already absent twenty years before his wife died and certainly implies that he was still absent, but presumed dead, in 1901 when his wife died.  It appears he certainly could be Francis Joseph who appeared in New Zealand in the 1860s and eventurally started a new family.  I think he may have left shortly after Joao was born in 1854 because I found a Francis Joseph that joined a whaling ship in 1855 to serve as a cooper.  Francisco Jose Cordeiro was a carpenter on Sao Jorge, which is related to being a cooper; and Francis Joseph did work as a cooper in New Zealand.

I only have one more update I'm waiting for and that is a Y-DNA of my wife's brother.  I hope to get it in the mail to FTDNA tomorrow.  Even without that though, the many coincidences (DNA Match, name, age, father's name, occupation, and unexplained absence from Sao Jorge) are overwhelming.  

Best wishes to all,

Bill Seidler

[Cheri Mello]

A very interesting find!

Cheri Mello
Listowner, Azores-Gen
Researching: São Miguel island: Vila Franca, Ponta Garca, Ribeira Quente, Ribeira das Tainhas, Achada

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