Wyllie / Wylie, Morton, Wotherspoon, Kerr & Gray - Caddle Farm, East Muirshiel, Skellyhill, High Linn farms

[Perplexed1]

Hi all, I'm interested in the family of Thomas Wyllie who married Jean/
Jane Morton (daughter of George Morton and possibly Jean Wotherspoon)
in April 1806. Banns were callled at Craigie by Kilmarnock and
Kilmaurs. Thomas and Jane had the following children:

George christened 4 Dec 1808 Craigie
Mary born 09 JAN 1811 Symington
Margaret born 12 Feb 1813 christened in Dunlop.
John Wylie born 18 April 1815, christened in Dunlop
Thomas born 14 May 1817, christened in Dunlop
David born 22 JUN 1819 Morshead
Jean born 16 Sept 1821 Stewarton.

Jean married James Whiteford at Mid Glencraig Campbeltown Argyll in
July 1849. They married at one of her brother's home in Campbeltown.
James and Jean emigrated to Australia in 1852. They are my great,
great grandparents.

I have Thomas, George and Jean at Caddell Farm on the 1841 census.
The other Wyllies listed there may be George's wife and children.
Thomas died in 1846 and I have a copy of his inventory from Caddell
Farm. I haven't been able to find a confirmed record of George after
the census record at Caddell farm in 1841. Jean and James had an
article in the Melbourne newspaper on their golden wedding anniversary
and Jean mentions Caddle Park (which we assume is Caddle farm) and
also her father George and Skylahill which we think might have been
Skellyhill farm.

Margaret Wyllie, Jean's sister, married Robert KERR. This family
farmed High Linn, Dalry and Cranberrymoss (sometimes Cranberry Moss),
Kilwinning. Robert Kerr (i) b.1808 married Margaret WYLLIE 25 May
1837(?) d. 12 Nov 1880. Their children included Jane 1838; Margaret 31
May 1840, Mary 24 Jul 1842, Robert born 16 Nov 1844 who married
Elizabeth HAMILTON. Elizabeth HAMILTON b. 1845 d. 16 Jun 1888;
Janet x. 18 Apr 1847 married Archibald GRAY 23 Dec 1875 died 21 Sep
1935. Archibald GRAY born 01 Jan 1841 died 22 Apr 1918 (second
wife). John born 02 Sep 1849; James 01 Mar 1852 ; Elizabeth born 25
Jun 1854.

I am hoping to spend a couple of weeks in Scotland next year having a
look at archives and records. Before I arrive, I'm intetrested in
determining what information might be available for farming families
in the early 1800s and where I should look for that information.

I am very interested in finding any connections - it would be great to
find some cousins, however many times removed. I'd also appreciate
advice on where to find information about the farms I've listed and
about Ayrshire farming families.

Thanks all

Anne

[minotaur]

Hi Anne.
Archibald GRAY and Janet KERR are among my ggrandparents.
They had seven children including Jeannie Kerr GRAY who married John Alexander BOGIE, my grandfather and namesake.
Archibald and Janet took over Cranberrymoss which I visited when I was very young.
The house is now a community centre for the housing estate that was build on the rest of the farm.

I'd be pleased to share more.

John A Bogie
 

[Perplexed1]

Hi John - not sure how I missed this. I've not done an awful lot on the
Wyllies and associated families including the Kerr and Gray families
instead concentrating on my mother's families, mostly Irish but one lot
of Smith/MacDonalds from Ardnamurchan and a German family. I was just
doing a search for Caddle farm and came across this email.

I dond't know a lot about the Grays and Kerrs other than what can be
found on IGI but would be really pleased to swap information about the
various branches of the family. Jean Wyllie, Thomas Wyllie's daughter
and the sister of Margaret Wyllie who married Robert Kerr, married James
Whiteford in Campbeltown in 1849 and they emigrated to Australia in 1852
with their two children.

Regards
Anne Whiteford

[Francisco Haro]

Hi, Anne & John ....Although not really associated with this research, I've
got an old photo of Cranberry Moss farm if it's any use to you ? I can
attach to an email ...The roads round Cranberry Moss were my old stamping
ground when I was wee and lived in the Blacklands....

Kind regards, Francisco Haro.

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[John Bogie]

Francisco, thank you. I would be interested in the picture.

Anne, my apologies for not having responded recently.

John Bogie

[Francisco Haro]

Hello again and sorry for the delay in getting back to you .......

However, here is the photo that I have ....

Hope it helps in some way.

Kind regards,

Francisco.

[John Bogie]

Francisco, thank you again for the picture.
I wonder if you can give an estimate as to the year this picture was taken.

Regards

John Bogie.

[Francisco Haro]

Hello again John ....

The information I have is that the photograph was taken in 1969 and
Cranberry Moss was partially demolished in 1971. That is all the info I
have. Perhaps the "partially demolished" refers to the outbuildings ? I do
know that the building was used as offices of the developers when the
Pennyburn scheme was being built. If I come across any other info I'll
forward it ...

[John Bogie]

Hi Francisco.
Thank you for the year.
You are probably right about the outbuildings being demolished. The main
building was still standing when I visited about four/five years ago; it was
/is used as the community centre for the surrounding housing estate.

Regards
John

[Francisco Haro]

Hello again John ...

Happy to help .... if I come across any more information I'll forward it ...

[Debbie]

Hi,

I note that you are going to be in Scotland next year so am wondering where you are from?  I have some Kerrs/Wylies on my tree (Ayrshire Shields) so if you need to know where to go when in Scotland please let me know.  I go up there every year so kinda know where to go!

Regards,

Debbie Rea

[eirlys lloyd]

[Francisco Haro]

Although no connection to this topic, is this the same person I forwarded the Cranberrymoss photo to ??

 

Regards,  Francisco Haro.

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[Perplexed1]

Hi DFebbie

Apologies for the delay in responding.  I haven't been doing too much family history of late.  I will however be in Scotland for a few days from 1 October 2014.  I'm flying back to Australia within the week though.  I will fly from London to Edinburgh and spend one or two days researching there and then travel to Ayrshire and visit the Burns Monument Centre to check their records.  I have written to them about this.

I've been looking on Trip Advisor and will probably hire a car from Edinburgh and drive to Ayrshire to visit some of the places listed below.

Any recommendations you might be able to make about where I could do family history in Ayrshrie would be most appreciated.

Do you have any of the Wyllies/Kerrs listed in my original email in your families? 
Regards

Anne

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[T Hunter and D Godfrey]

On an non genealogical note I would say take the train to Glasgow and then hire a car there. The roads in Ayrshire are not fast ones, and you should take the time saved by going by train to get a feel for the land in your ancestral areas. The towns are small and the area is quite rural - we didn't find many hotels or B&B's in the areas we were in, or even around Robbie Burns land. Mind you it was 25 years ago !

The connections between your various family villages and towns and the countryside surrounding them will help you set your ancestors in their time and place. Parish boundaries are not real for people looking for the shortest route - to the pub, their fields, the neighbouring farm or the midwife ! Once we saw the land, we could see why the family married and had the children in different parishes to where the census showed them living. They probably moved around not just to work, but to change houses as their family grew - but all centred on the work place - a coal mine on a private estate.

And don't forget that by October the light or weather may limit driving times. We visited from Canada in October, and found ourselves driving out to Irvine in the dark on a winding road with only one gas station for miles around. A very slow road too, despite being marked as an"A" road.  Our visit was great though - the days were sunny,  windy, stormy and cold. Not to say we didn't fall in love with Ayrshire ! The Hudson's Bay Company said it picked people from Ayrshire as immigrants because it look just like their future home - Vancouver Island - and they were right. I felt right at home -  it was really astonishing - only the red shaggy long haired cows made it  look different. We stayed in a hotel in Irvine that was being built while my ancestor waited for the boat to his new life. I imagined him taking his kids down to watch the building to pass the time.

While travelling, check out the closest local libraries for info. You want to know if there are remains of small chapels that they might have used instead of the parish church where the register was written up.  I know of a church in Ayrshire that was packed up and sent to Japan as a wedding chapel - from Dreghorn - so don't assume the present or old parish church was the only one, especially after the mid l850's. Check the library shelves for local books/booklets you won't find anywhere else. 

You will want to know if there was a big house - a local mansion, nearby, possibly in the countryside, whom your family might have worked for, and then see if the estate or that family have any records deposited in any archives. Ask if there is a librarian on duty who knows local history - I was once show the secret files a librarian didn't want the county archives to know the local branch had! (But that was in England).   And don't forget to attend a meeting of the local history or genealogy society, if you are there on the right evening. 

It being October, we happened on the Harvest Festival preparations in the church my ancestors had been married in, and we took the time to sit and commune with the old church as we watched that age old tradition repeated.   That was one of many highlights. Enjoy your trip ! 

Terri in the other Victoria (BC)

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[Perplexed1]

Thanks for the advice - I will look at the train to Galsgow option.

Anne

[JOHN WATSON]

Hi,

This information is completely misleading. Ayrshire is full of suitable Hotels etc. The Ayrshire tourist board is online and will send you a tourist brochure with plenty of accommodation.

Regards

John N Watson

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From: "Perplexed1" <awhi...@bigpond.net.au>
To: ayrshir...@googlegroups.com

[Deborah Rea]

Hello Anne,

Well, the Burns Centre should be your first port of call.  My distant cousin Ann Frew Wyllie lives in Kilmarnock however she used to live in Stewarton and before that, Glasgow.  She might be a good source for you.  

Unfortunately, I have discovered that most of the people on our Ayrshire Shields were put down in error so I have had to start another tree.  As a result, I don't have the same people I once had on the AS tree down on my new Burns Family tree.  They will eventually be on the tree, but slowly, slowly....

Read abt the Kerrs of Kersland - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Barony_of_Kersland.  This might help.  You should try to meet up with the folk from the Stewarton Historical Museum... they have lots of information.

I will probably disagree with T Hunter and D Godfrey about the roads in Ayrshire not being fast ones.  Actually, the roads in Ayrshire are fantastic compared to those in England where you would see 3x as many drivers on the roads!  

It's a shame you are spending so little time here.... I come up for 3 weeks every year and find that I just don't have time enough to gather what I needed. 

Regards,

Debbie 

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[Deborah Rea]

I agree with John!  There are so many B & Bs around.  I am, at present staying at Langside in Fenwick - a fabulous place (http://www.tripadvisor.co.uk/ShowUserReviews-g2155135-d4232382-r164866081-Langside-Fenwick_East_Ayrshire_Ayrshire_Scotland.html). 

Regards,

Debbie Rea 

[Caroline Arnold]

Hi Folks,

I'm local too and have already sent a message to Anne basically agreeing with John and Debbie..giving a few pointers ...I do wish people (however well intentioned) would desist from giving the impression that Scotland is some sort of 'faerie isle' living in the mists of the dark ages.. romantic as it may seem...

Regards,

Nan Arnold

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Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2014 10:40:40 +0100

Subject: Re: [Ayrshire History] Re: Wyllie / Wylie, Morton, Wotherspoon, Kerr & Gray - Caddle Farm, East Muirshiel, Skellyhill, High Linn farms

From: debora...@gmail.com
To: ayrshir...@googlegroups.com

[fhist...@gmail.com]

Hi John & also Sheena particularly as you have Kerr relatives

John & Sheena we have corresponded previously about our Kerr/Wyl(l)ie connections. Robert Kerr married Margaret Wyl(l)ie in 1837.  She was the daughter of Thomas Wyl(l)ie and Jean/Jane Morton.  Her sister Jean was my g grandmother and both Jean and her husband as well as her brother George and his family (Mary Leggat and their children) emigrated to Melbourne.

 I was in Ayrshire last year, had a great time and really enjoyed the places I visited - Stewarton, Craigie (I have some really  lovely photos from there across the churchyard in the late afternoon sun), Kilmaurs and Dunlop.  I was writing to say I picked up OPRs and Valuation Roll copies for the Kerrs and some extra information on Jean Morton's parents, so if you are interested in getting scans please let me know.  These are mainly for the children of Robert Kerr and Margaret Wyl(l)ie who married 1837.  I will be back in Scotland in about 7 weeks and am looking forward to spending time at ScotlandsPeople and chasing down extra records.  

Anne

[Deborah Rea]

Hi Ann,

Just read your post about the Kerrs/Wyllies as well as the Fergusons, Gillies, Leggats, Mortons.  I, too am related to them as are others whom I'm meeting up with in Fenwick.  I'm driving up tomorrow and will be there for 3 weeks doing Shields research.  Next Thursday I am putting on a buffet night for abt 20 cousins!  We will all be bringing documents to share.  I would love to know what information you might have on the Kerrs/Wyllies (and of course anything else!).

Regards,

[fhist...@gmail.com]

Hi Debbie

Lovely to hear from you.  You can see from my email above how I'm related.  I have OPRs for Margaret and Robert's banns in 1837 and for the following children, Margaret born 1840, Janet born 1847, Elizabeth born 1854 plus a number of others I just can't lay my hands on at present. I have a copy of the Valuation Roll for Robert Kerr and possibly his son Robert at Giffordland Mill and High Linn in 1875-76, a printout of the 1841 Census for Ardrossan showing Thomas Wyllie and his family (George, his wife Mary Leggatt and their two children) at Caddel farm.  Jean my great grandmother is listed as a 15 year old but there is also a Janet 15 years old and I have no idea who she is.  My aunt who was the holder of many fo the family records in Australia, said there was a twin left in Scotland and this also shows an Alexander Wyllie and his family from the 1841 Census at Holmbyre farm which I understand backed onto Caddel farm.  I also have a scan of a post card from the Mortons to James Whiteford (married Jean Wylie) and a post card of Newmilns which has been written on with a house/land pointed out as belonging to Grandfather Whiteford (if I remember correctly).  

I have a copy of the Valuation Roll for Loudon for Skellyhill farm in 1875-6.  James Hastings is the farmer. I took this because my great grandmother Jean Wyllie noted on her 50th wedding anniversary in an article in The Argus, a Melbourne newspaper, that her grandfather was from Skylahill farm which I now understand to reference Skellyhill farm.  Although this Valuation Roll does not have Mortons mentioned, I have corresponded with a Hastings descendant whose great grandparents emigrated and who has said the farm was associated with Mortons.   I also picked up a copy of the 1875-6 Valuation Roll for Loudon and a James Hastings as the farmer/occupier at a farm called South Kellyhill with James Moron as the proprietor.  So I'm unsure whether my great grandmothers reference was to South Kellyhill or Skellyhill and need to do further research.

I have a copy from ScotlandsPeople of Thomas Wylie's Inventory following his death in 1845 at Caddel farm.  It notes that George, who married Mary Leggatt, was his oldest son, but IGI has a James born in September 1806 and I have the OPR for this.  I'm not sure whether James died or emigrated as Jean, George and John, all Wylie siblings did.  John went to the US and Jean and George went to Australia.  I'm in touch with US cousins and also cousins in Victoria descended from George and Mary Leggatt.  They have photos of George and Mary and also James Whiteford and Jean Wylie (his wife).

I would love to be involved, as would I think our Victorian and US cousins, in any swapping of information.

I am more than happy to have my email given to family members which is ......"     fhist...@gmail.com....."

and if anyone wants scans of the documents mentioned I am happy to provide them.

I am very interested in information about the Mortons and the Leggatts - Mary Leggatt who married George Wylie was born in Craig Dow, Loch Head, Kirkoswald, Ayr on 27 December 1825, the daughter of James Leggatt and Catharine Brown.  James according to Ancestry was the son of Alexander Leggatt and Ann Earl.

I will be in Scotland in about 5 weeks.  I'm in Edinburgh on 25th to about 28th July then going up to Inverness (had families from Ardnamurchan who are almost impossible to trace (Smith and McDonald) and across to Skye where Whitefords remained until the mid 1900s and then down to Campbeltown where Jean Wylie and James Whiteford married.  They married at her brother George's farm, Mid Glencraig (have the Census record for the family there in 185)1.  James and Jean emigrated in 1852 and George and his family followed later in the 1850s.  I believe, but have not confirmed this myself that Mid Glencraig was part of property purchased by Paul McCartney.  I am hoping to drive out and get some photos of the area/farm if possible while I am in Campbeltown.  I will take the Sunday ferry to Ayrshire and spend a few days in Ayrshire before travelling back to Edinburgh and then home to Australia.

I'd be very interested in your research.  I was planning at ScotslandsPeople to do further work on the Leggatts as well as on the Whitefords and associated families (McDougall, McLeod, McIsaacs, MacDougall, from Raasay and Skye and Peacocks as well.

Look forward to hearing back from you.

Anne

[Deborah Rea]

Hi Anne,

My cousin Rosemary and I are just going out to see Ann Wyllie (her husband is Drew Wyllie and she was a Frew).  She's my 'partner in crime' and is an excellent researcher.  I forwarded your emails to me and I believe Rosemary has already replied to you as she has a Wyllie contact back home in Vancouver!

Where do you live?  If Ayrshire, can you give me your contact details?  My mobile is 07891918927.

I'll be in contact later this evening - I really haven't had much time to read your email probably!

Regards,

Debbie

[Perplexed1]

Hi Debbie and Rosemary

I live in Australia.

Jean Wyllie,  born Stewarton 1821, daughter of Thomas Wyllie and Jean/Jane Morton, married James Whiteford in 1849 and they emigrated with their two children to Melbourne Australia in 1852.  Jean and James married at her brother George Wyllie's farm, Mid Glencraig near Campbeltown.  George married Mary Leggatt who was born in Craig Dow, Loch Head, Kirkoswald, Ayr on 27 December 1825, the daughter of James Leggatt and Catharine Brown.  James according to Ancestry was the son of Alexander Leggatt and Ann Earl. 

George, Mary and their children, Jean and their father Thomas are at Caddell farm in Ardrossan on the 1841 Census and Thomas died there in 1845 or 1846.  There is also another 15 year old, Janet and I have no idea where she fits in the family. 

George, his wife and family and Jean moved at some point after their father's death to Mid Glencraig farm near Campbeltown.  George and his wife and family are there on the 1851 Census.  George and his family followed Jean and James out to Melbourne later in the 1850s.  He farmed near a place called Wild Duck Creek in Victoria.

So there's two lots of Wyllie/Morton descendants out here, as well as Leggatt descendants.

I am leaving Australia on Wednesday 8 July but am going on a cruise with friends which gets back into Southampton on 25 July when we fly to Edinburgh.  I will be in Edinburgh for 3 or 4 days, mostly digging around ScotlandsPeople.  I am then going to Portree and Raasay (29 July to 31 July)  where Whitefords remained until the 1950s.  From there I go down to Campbeltown for a couple of days, hoping to get out and take photos of Mid Glencraig and the streets where the Whitefords lived in Campbeltown.  I am on the Sunday evening ferry on 2 August from Campbeltown to Ayrshire and have 3 days in Ayrshire before travelling back to Edinburgh to fly back to Australia.  I have nothing booked for Ayrshire yet, although I was planning to go up to Caddell farm in Ardrossan and get some photos hopefully and up to Craigie where Thomas Wyllie and Jean Morton's banns were recorded. 

From the information you have do you think we share the same family?  It would be great to make connections however distant.

My mobile is an Australian one +61410326930.  I will get a sim card once I get to Scotland and will advise you of the number once I am there.  If you think there is a family connection I would be very happy to meet up while I am in Ayrshire and share information.  I will have a hire car

As Ann is an excellent researcher and your "partner in crime" maybe both of you could tell me whether the Wyllies and Mortons on the OPRs for Craigie in the latter part of the 1700s and early 1800s were related to Thomas Wyllie and Jean Morton.  I only found their details recently and would love to go further back than Thomas and Jean but I only have the names and birthdates.

I would also love to know how we are related.  Thomas and Jean had a number of children some of whom I know about and others I don't.  John born emigrated to the US and I am in touch with a cousin in the US.  Margaret born 1813 in Dunlop married Robert Kerr in 1837 and I have a list of family members from that marriage.  On Thomas Wyllie's inventory in 1845 it notes that George is his oldest son, but I have found an OPR for James born 1806 (Craigie), so am unsure whether he died or also emigrated.  Then there is Mary Wyllie born 1811 Kilmarnock, John born 1815 in Dunlop - he emigrated to the US and I am in contact with relatives there, Thomas born 1817 in Dunlop and David born 1819 in Stewarton as was Jean Wyllie.

Looking forward to hearing back from you.

Regards
Anne

[fhist...@gmail.com]

Hi Debbie

Just wondering whether you had managed to sort out whether we are related through the Wyllies?  I've had a look at a family tree on Ancestry called "Ayrshire Shields", don't know if it has any relationship to your Ayrshire Shields but couldn't find a connection to my Wyllies.

I'm leaving Australia on Wednesday and would love to know if there is any relationship.  I will have Monday 3 August to midday Wednesday 6 August in Ayrshire if there is a chance of meeting up with any, however distantly related cousins who might be interested.

Thanks

Anne