Why minikube, docker, etc. where has simplicity gone?

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Oz Oid

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Apr 12, 2021, 8:41:39 AM4/12/21
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Trying to install AWX - a simple web application with db. on WSL

Why are we pushed towards kubernetes, docker, virtual environments.
There is so much complexity with virtual environments inside each other when at the end of the day this is a simple python web application. This is major overhead of installation packages to get it all working.
I want to learn Ansible not Kubernetes, minikube, docker etc. and spend my time debugging when they do not install or work correctly first go.

What a mess, what a waste of time.

Ill avoid AWX until there is a simple  installawx.sh  or similar.

Regards 

Steve

Christopher Billett

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Apr 12, 2021, 8:52:52 AM4/12/21
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AWX will not provide any mechanism for learning Ansible. It's a UI tool for the purpose of pushing playbooks.

Virtual environments are great, easy to deploy, rebuild and trash with little need to understand the complexity of installing the underline application. Once you have learn core Ansible I would recommend learning Kubernetes ;) 

Oz Oid

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Apr 12, 2021, 9:15:47 AM4/12/21
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I would like to learn AWX to give me more of an overall Ansible knowledge. 
The install page links to other install pages for the pre-requisites some of which link to further installation pages of pre-requisites.
When the install of one of the pre-requisites fail - as it does on WSL(or other non standard system), that leaves me chasing web sites for help.
Are there no alternative installation scripts?
The installation has increased the number of files, complexity, and time taken to install.
Keep it simple is the first thing i learned on the ansible introduction video.

Regards

Steve

Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 12, 2021, 9:22:34 AM4/12/21
to Oz Oid, AWX Project
I think the install has become a lot easier than three docker container. For me it is just installing the operator. And rancher makes the the easy.  Boom the thing goes through. Yes there are some database concepts to understand and I would better feedback but I think the move to kubernetes is a good one. 

@steve.  I think there are some primary key concepts that you will have to learn ie kubernetes. 

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Subject: [awx-project] Re: Why minikube, docker, etc. where has simplicity gone?
 
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Christopher Billett

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Apr 12, 2021, 9:25:52 AM4/12/21
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You wont learn much, you need to know ansible already. Anyway if you want to you can look at a Ansible Tower free trial

Oz Oid

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Apr 12, 2021, 9:30:12 AM4/12/21
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So i am doomed to learn kubernetes when all i want to have is a web interface?
It seems my list of learning grows exponentially with each project I encounter.
Ansible install does not require kubernetes, and so far none of the modules do either.
see you in a few months when i get back to square one again.

Regards
Steve

Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 12, 2021, 9:32:26 AM4/12/21
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I suggest you get a platform to install your kubernetes workloads on. OKD, Rancher, whatever. It has a GUI where you can deploy things with.
It eases the transition.

Christopher Billett

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Apr 12, 2021, 9:38:33 AM4/12/21
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You don't need AWX to learn ansible. most people/companies use native ansible

Oz Oid

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Apr 12, 2021, 9:47:41 AM4/12/21
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I thank you for your advice.
My reason for installing AWX was to get a REST API for Ansible so I can integrate some functions with other projects that can send HTTP GET/POST API calls.
I would like to for example: add hosts, list hosts, or run playbooks from a HTTP json request.
As someone that has not had too much experience with Ansible - i thought this was the best way to go.
I currently have ansible installed within a Windows WSL instance for development on my local machine.
I think this is the major cause of the headache for me WSL does not simply work as expected.
I shall create a proper VM and install from there.

Thanks 
Steve

Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 12, 2021, 9:49:24 AM4/12/21
to Oz Oid, AWX Project
I would suggest then you go with the earlier versions. Like version 17. It just use docker. 

From: 'Oz Oid' via AWX Project <awx-p...@googlegroups.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 1:47:41 AM
To: AWX Project <awx-p...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [awx-project] Re: Why minikube, docker, etc. where has simplicity gone?
 

Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 12, 2021, 9:51:49 AM4/12/21
to Oz Oid, AWX Project
If you are familiar with docker To start 

But comparing the installation of awx with a kubernetes build and its predecessors it feels way easier under a system like okd or rancher 

From: Wei-Yen Tan <weiye...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 1:49:16 AM
To: Oz Oid <ozoi...@googlemail.com>; AWX Project <awx-p...@googlegroups.com>

minsis

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Apr 12, 2021, 4:24:24 PM4/12/21
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I have to agree with some of this. I like the idea of kube and docker (especially docker) as the simplicity of starting up a cluster is easy. I love some of the new ideas coming with the k8s stuff. However, this project is now forcing users towards a k8s environment when they may not even have one, or even want one, or even need one. It would be nice if the project could still maintain the docker component of it all.

Like lots of companies, we're separated by departmental budgets when it comes to needing servers build out in our VM environment, etc. So in order to get this working in a k8s cluster we would need to request this whole build out of servers only to run a single thing inside that cluster. Because of the fact that the operator isn't even a production ready release, we're going to be on 15.0.1 for a very long time and hope that docker is supported again for the newer version in the near future.

Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 12, 2021, 4:33:51 PM4/12/21
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From: awx-p...@googlegroups.com <awx-p...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of minsis <dennis...@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 8:24:23 AM

"Kosala Atapattu (කෝසල අතපත්තු)"

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Apr 12, 2021, 4:49:26 PM4/12/21
to Wei-Yen Tan, AWX Project
Just pitching in, as I can see we completed a full circle. The initial complaint was that there is no simpler installation. For someone who already have a K8s environment, yes it makes sense, but for someone who does not have that level of complexity  in place, you have to agree this is blocker. We almost impose that no K8s/docker? No AWX.

Ko

Sent from my iPhone

On 13/04/2021, at 1:32 AM, Wei-Yen Tan <weiye...@gmail.com> wrote:

I suggest you get a platform to install your kubernetes workloads on. OKD, Rancher, whatever. It has a GUI where you can deploy things with.

Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 12, 2021, 5:01:08 PM4/12/21
to Kosala Atapattu (කෝසල අතපත්තු), AWX Project
The complaint here it seems is that you don't have an installation path for docker. There is a side folder in the project called here that has docker installation documentation for 18-19 if you decide to go down the route.  


Imo I would suggest that as a precursor that this is an indication where things are going and that you guys start the transition to kubernetes for the future

From: Kosala Atapattu (කෝසල අතපත්තු) <kosala....@gmail.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 8:49:19 AM
To: Wei-Yen Tan <weiye...@gmail.com>
Cc: AWX Project <awx-p...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [awx-project] Re: Why minikube, docker, etc. where has simplicity gone?
 

minsis

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Apr 12, 2021, 5:29:22 PM4/12/21
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Docker is no longer supported. Yes there is a way to do it yourself, but its nice to have it all official-like and not marked "only for development".

Not everyone can transition to k8s which is my exact point. My example is a very real-world example here. I would have to requisition tens-of-thousands of dollars for a production ready k8s cluster in our datacenter solely to run a single thing.

This project is now taking away options instead of adding them and that defeats the purpose of easy automation for everyone; it's now 100% rendered unusable for people who cannot setup any kind of k8s (or similar) technology.

Anyways, that's just my 2c and I'm sure I'm not the only one that feels this way about the 180 direction this project took.

Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 12, 2021, 5:35:07 PM4/12/21
to minsis, AWX Project
Then there is a misconception that a k8 cluster is going to cost a lot to implement. In fact it doesn't.  As the documents show you can use Minikube or other smaller versions. Like k3. 

It won't cost 10000 of  dollars. Respectfully, I would suggest using docker install and then look to see how to transitioning to k3 or a smaller variant. 

Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 9:29:22 AM
To: AWX Project <awx-p...@googlegroups.com>

Ryan Petrello

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Apr 12, 2021, 5:53:50 PM4/12/21
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> I would suggest that as a precursor that this is an indication where things are going and that you guys start the transition to kubernetes for the future

I just want to clarify that while the Docker-based install method is not recommended for production installations, it does still work as detailed at the link above, and it's something that will likely continue to work going forward, as the entire group of AWX core maintainers use it on a regular basis to develop against.

With our recent shift in AWX toward playbook execution that is based on containers, a shift to K8S as the default platform just made sense for AWX.  I understand that this feels like a drastic change, and it wasn't one we took lightly, or wanted to rush.  In fact, it's one that we've been talking about for 18+ months in public spaces (like various AnsibleFest community events), and which we announced about six months ago here:


As others have mentioned, for those who don't need this fanciness, the Docker-based deployment at https://github.com/ansible/awx/blob/devel/tools/docker-compose/README.md will continue to work, but will require slightly more more DIY and eblow grease than it did previously (namely, we don't publish official images for it anymore).

Howard Jones

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Apr 12, 2021, 6:08:20 PM4/12/21
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On 12/04/2021 22:35, Wei-Yen Tan wrote:
Then there is a misconception that a k8 cluster is going to cost a lot to implement. In fact it doesn't.  As the documents show you can use Minikube or other smaller versions. Like k3. 

It won't cost 10000 of  dollars. Respectfully, I would suggest using docker install and then look to see how to transitioning to k3 or a smaller variant. 

Yep - my test environment is microk8s installed in 3 minutes on my Ubuntu desktop. Once you have installed the local storage provider, it isn't much different from docker-compose.

There's plenty of other parts of awx that are pretty much "only for development" (e.g. 3 releases with a partial UI, the EE tools seem very rough around the edges), but not this.


Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 12, 2021, 6:20:35 PM4/12/21
to Howard Jones, awx-p...@googlegroups.com
So yoy are just using one server to do this Howard? 

From: awx-p...@googlegroups.com <awx-p...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Howard Jones <ho...@thingy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 10:08:24 AM
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Subject: Re: [awx-project] Re: Why minikube, docker, etc. where has simplicity gone?
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phil.gr...@gmail.com

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Apr 13, 2021, 3:34:14 AM4/13/21
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I think it's important to point out that AWX is an open source, fast moving UPSTREAM DEVELOPMENT product. You should always tell yourself this when deciding on a platform and whether to use it. It will have new, sometimes breaking features. Don't expect stability and expect change, sometimes radical change. 

I keep seeing people mention the word 'production' on this forum. Please see my previous point above!

Considering the plethora of platforms people want to use AWX on and with, now having one simple installer, surely makes more sense. The operator approach can't really make that any simpler and can be maintained far better than a myriad of options. 

Howard Jones

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Apr 13, 2021, 3:39:21 AM4/13/21
to Wei-Yen Tan, awx-p...@googlegroups.com
On 12/04/2021 23:20, Wei-Yen Tan wrote:
> So yoy are just using one server to do this Howard?

For dev, yes. Not even a server - my desktop.

Our actual "prod" AWX instance runs on Azure AKS, along with the things
it is managing. We use it to deploy test environments of AKS and other
Azure resources.

For me, switching to Operator as the standard install method was great!
:-) We've been using it since November with 15.0.1, and I find it much
nicer than the "ansible playbook generating manifests" method, because I
can deploy it using Helm, the same as everything else we deploy, then
Helm again to deploy the awx itself.


Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 13, 2021, 3:41:39 AM4/13/21
to Howard Jones, awx-p...@googlegroups.com
Thank you Howard 

How did you get the operator working with helm? 
From: Howard Jones <ho...@thingy.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 13, 2021 7:39:25 PM
To: Wei-Yen Tan <weiye...@gmail.com>; awx-p...@googlegroups.com <awx-p...@googlegroups.com>

Subject: Re: [awx-project] Re: Why minikube, docker, etc. where has simplicity gone?

Howard Jones

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Apr 13, 2021, 4:05:08 AM4/13/21
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On 13/04/2021 08:41, Wei-Yen Tan wrote:
> Thank you Howard
>
> How did you get the operator working with helm?

I grabbed the deploy/awx-operator.yaml file and chopped it up into the
components:

    helm create awx-operator
    mkdir awx-operator/crds
    # match version below to the operator you are installing! DON'T use
'devel' unless you mean to.
    wget
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/ansible/awx-operator/0.8.0/deploy/awx-operator.yaml

    # remove the leading comments that otherwise break the awk step
    grep -v '^#' < awx-operator.yaml |awk '/\-\-\-/{f=NR".yaml"};
{print >f}'

The resulting numbered files are valid "templates" for a blank helm
chart. The CustomResourceDefinitions go in the crds directory. The rest
go in the templates directory. If you only need the default install, you
can stop there. I usually add at least the '{{ .Release.Namespace }}' as
a parameter, so we can put the operator in a non-default namespace, and
rename the files to normal helm conventions (name.kind.yaml).

Howard Jones

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Apr 13, 2021, 4:32:07 AM4/13/21
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On 13/04/2021 08:34, phil.gr...@gmail.com wrote:
> I think it's important to point out that AWX is an open source, fast
> moving UPSTREAM DEVELOPMENT product. You should always tell yourself
> this when deciding on a platform and whether to use it. It will have
> new, sometimes breaking features. Don't expect stability and expect
> change, sometimes radical change.
>
My problem with this is that the "downstream" product, apart from
lagging behind on features (I actually want execution environments, and
a version of ansible-galaxy that can talk to private git repos), doesn't
seem to be any more supported - 1300 open issues for the ansible
project, and another 1300 for the awx project. It's not like there's a
"secret version" that is more reliable, has all the bugs fixed and works
the way you want. It just lets you righteously blame someone, and maybe
jump the issues queue.


Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 13, 2021, 4:39:03 AM4/13/21
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You seem to mention AWX project as being production. AWX IS the development platform
If you want the stable downstream/commercial product compare it to Ansible Tower.

Howard Jones

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Apr 13, 2021, 4:53:20 AM4/13/21
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On 13/04/2021 09:39, Wei-Yen Tan wrote:
> You seem to mention AWX project as being production. AWX IS the
> development platform
> If you want the stable downstream/commercial product compare it to
> Ansible Tower.

That was a comparison with Ansible Tower. It is not, as far as I can
tell, a fragrant rolling pasture of working features and bug free operation.


Kdu Bonalume

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Apr 14, 2021, 2:55:42 AM4/14/21
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As someone using Nomad as an orchestrator, I do relate at a certain level to the OP points. I can't have a K8s cluster running AWX alone and everything else on Nomad. For that reason we're still at 17.x (which already is a template glued with spit and gum) until we figure out how to Jerry-rig our way thru the latest versions.

Maybe I'll deploy a k3 node inside my Nomad cluster and exceed all levels of abstractions? LOL

Anyways, I understand it was the right move to make and we're just unlucky to be at the margin of the community (in terms of Nomad vs K8s).
Happy automating!

Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 14, 2021, 2:57:15 AM4/14/21
to Kdu Bonalume, AWX Project
I just saw K3s from rancher. That works on a single node 

From: awx-p...@googlegroups.com <awx-p...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Kdu Bonalume <kdu.bm...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, April 14, 2021 6:55:42 PM
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Subject: Re: ARe: [awx-project] Re: Why minikube, docker, etc. where has simplicity gone?
 
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Mathias Homann

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Apr 14, 2021, 3:17:28 AM4/14/21
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Am Mittwoch, 14. April 2021, 08:57:06 CEST schrieb Wei-Yen Tan:
> I just saw K3s from rancher. That works on a single node

I have set up k3s with traefik on a single host, and deployed AWX 19 on it.
Right now that AWX isn't usable (yet) due to some issues with requirements vs.
execution environments, but it works.

Host is only a dual core AMD turion 2 with 8gig ram - seems to be good enough
to run AWX in K3s and a few other odds and ends, but I haven't really been
able to test it because all my plays need stuff that isn't in the EE images
but loading requirememts seems to be broken right now.

If you want details, check here:
https://www.tuxonline.tech/index.php/2021/04/07/from-0-to-kubernetes-why-bother/

I haven't written about the actual AWX deploy yet, tho.
I did manage to deploy WITH import of my "live" awx database from the host
that it is on..

Cheers
MH


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Wei-Yen Tan

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Apr 14, 2021, 3:26:07 AM4/14/21
to Mathias Homann, awx-p...@googlegroups.com
On that note have you thought of building your custom ee resources? There is ansible builder and you can customise your use of it. In your projects you can also being in the missing collections 

 
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Subject: Re: ARe: [awx-project] Re: Why minikube, docker, etc. where has simplicity gone?
 
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phil.gr...@gmail.com

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Apr 14, 2021, 4:20:51 AM4/14/21
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Hi Howard,

Tower, which is now part of Ansible Automation Platform, AAP, is the stable downstream version of AWX. Same model as everything else Red Hat.
AAP has a private Automation Hub, which is supported and provides the private git repo requirement you talk about wanting.

Bear in mind, that those open issues on github, aren't just bugs, they are feature requests and other things as well, for not just AAP but Ansible core as well. Given there are 000s of active contributors, it's no surprise that a large and very successful open source project has this many open things. I see that many requests as a good thing, as it means we're providing someone of value :)

Fixes work both ways, coming from upstream into the downstream projects and vice versa. There is no queue jumping, just a paid for supported option or this community option.

Regards
Phil.

Mathias Homann

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Apr 14, 2021, 5:00:19 AM4/14/21
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Am 2021-04-14 09:26, schrieb Wei-Yen Tan:
> On that note have you thought of building your custom ee resources?
> There is ansible builder and you can customise your use of it. In your
> projects you can also being in the missing collections

I've tried - custom EE's seem to be broken in AWX 19, see
https://github.com/ansible/awx/issues/9864

Cheers
Mathias

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Mona Werling

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Apr 14, 2021, 5:04:01 AM4/14/21
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Hey there,
do you need to use ad-hoc-commands? Because, if not, you can build your
own EE with the EE-Repo of AWX. Just clone the repo, change the
requirement-files and just run docker build and push the new repo.
Worked like a charm for me (though I just needed xenapi for my deployment).
Cheers

Mathias Homann

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Apr 14, 2021, 5:09:04 AM4/14/21
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Am 2021-04-14 11:03, schrieb 'Mona Werling' via AWX Project:
> Hey there,
> do you need to use ad-hoc-commands? Because, if not, you can build
> your own EE with the EE-Repo of AWX. Just clone the repo, change the
> requirement-files and just run docker build and push the new repo.
> Worked like a charm for me (though I just needed xenapi for my
> deployment).
> Cheers

What version of AWX?
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joseph sanchez

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Apr 22, 2021, 10:14:15 PM4/22/21
to AWX Project
I basically followed your suggestions to create the helm chart/templates, and was able to get the awx-operator pod to stay in a running state(finally).  But that's about as far as it gets.  So no errors finally, but also no progression beyond the awx-operator running. I'm assuming I should be seeing more pods showing up in the namespace for db, rabbitmq etc.  I know we have very little to reference from here, as I guess we are the only ones crazy enough to create a helm chart.  But from your experience so far, do you have a rough idea what I may be missing here?  

Howard Jones

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Apr 23, 2021, 3:44:56 AM4/23/21
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On 23/04/2021 03:14, joseph sanchez wrote:
> I basically followed your suggestions to create the helm
> chart/templates, and was able to get the awx-operator pod to stay in a
> running state(finally).  But that's about as far as it gets. So no
> errors finally, but also no progression beyond the awx-operator
> running. I'm assuming I should be seeing more pods showing up in the
> namespace for db, rabbitmq etc.  I know we have very little to
> reference from here, as I guess we are the only ones crazy enough to
> create a helm chart.  But from your experience so far, do you have a
> rough idea what I may be missing here?

Did you create an awx CRD? Installing the operator is only the first
stage of the installation. The actual awx install is triggered by
creating the awx object in the k8s database, as per the awx installation
instructions. I do this with a second (really short!) helm chart, just
so it matches all our other installs.

You are only up to here:
https://github.com/ansible/awx/blob/19.0.0/INSTALL.md#deploy-awx

Jesse Harris

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Apr 25, 2021, 3:23:52 AM4/25/21
to AWX Project
I'm planning on moving my Docker-compose deployed AWX to use awx-operator. So far I have AWX installed using k3s. Using vagrant for this test and want to share it here in case it is help to anyone else:

joseph sanchez

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Jun 30, 2021, 11:07:01 PM6/30/21
to AWX Project
Sorry about the delayed response.  A few higher priority projects took over, and I had to shelve this for a bit.  So yes, I created a crd.  I took a different approach and installed the crd manually before deploying the helm template.  Ultimately, i want this to install before helm install of the chart completes.  So probably use a pre-install hook.  I did get a response back saying the crd was installed correctly.  I then installed the helm chart to a specific namespace.  The pod started, and stayed running.  But thats about as far as it gets.  Note: I did install the CRD to the same namespace as the awx-operator

joseph sanchez

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Jul 5, 2021, 10:43:19 PM7/5/21
to AWX Project
Ok not sure if anyone here is still following this.  I was able to figure out my issues above.  Mostly all on my end, with trying to get awx to play nice with our templates.  Finally got the pvc issue figured out. and all three pods are running now.  So what i'm trying to figure out now is, where to apply the ingress configuration.  I have a template file the takes ingress-nginx config info from values.yaml file and builds ingress from there.  But with awx I'm not sure where to actually apply the ingress configuration.  If that makes any sense.  This awx deploy just in general is somewhat new territory for me, from what I've worked with before.  Does it go in the values file i created for operator?  Or perhaps the awx file that is created that kicks off building pods for postgres etc?
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