North Arrow orientation

Ron C

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Apr 21, 2004, 2:42:26 PM4/21/04

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Hello All,

Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the
North Arrow. I've always been taught, formally and informally that id should
always point up or to the right or any angle in between.

Where can I find documentation to support this?

Thanks for the help,

RCM

doug k

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Apr 21, 2004, 3:49:00 PM4/21/04

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i set orientation to hold the dominant base line (usually a R.O.W.) at 0
degrees, unless otherwise dictated by local codes. Practicality supersedes
convention - in this case. YMMV

"Ron C" <ronme...@sdii-global.com> wrote in message
news:4086c093$1_3@newsprd01...

Tom Smith

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Apr 21, 2004, 3:43:22 PM4/21/04

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> Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the
> North Arrow. I've always been taught, formally and informally that id
should
> always point up or to the right or any angle in between.

This has been beaten to death at least once, though I can't find the thread
now.

As far as I know, there isn't a universal rule on this. If you're trying to
win an argument, you might eventually find some rule that covers your
specific discipline, but I'm quite sure there isn't any law that covers all
drafting.

I've been practicing architecture for about 25 years, and every set of
building plans I've ever seen have been squared up with the sheet, with the
front of the building at the bottom of the sheet. Nobody cares where north
is. If an arrow is included, for orientation on a large project, it nearly
always shows true north vs "plan" north -- so that the elevations can be
labeled north, south, etc even though they aren't exactly oriented that way.

The contrary school of thought comes from surveyors or mapmakers, who aren't
drawing anything but undeveloped ground. Some of them will tell you that
north "MUST" be straight up in all cases. But my buddy the highway engineer
says he's never seen engineering drawings for a highway done that way --
they're drawn with north generally pointing to the upper right, as you say,
and the sheet aligned to that section of road.

It depends on your discipline. If you're drawing a map, people expect north
to be up. If you're drawing man-made objects like buildings, people expect
the object to determine the orientation, with no regard at all to where
north is. You don't draw the object that you're designing all cockeyed just
because of compass directions. You draw it to fit on the sheet nicely and --
mainly -- to be understandable.

On large scale built developments, the normal practice is to orient whatever
is the major axis of the development -- usually the principal highway --
horizontally on the sheet, with the "entrance" to the development at the
bottom. If that puts north pointing down, so be it.

Allen Jessup

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Apr 21, 2004, 4:21:52 PM4/21/04

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As someone working in Surveying I would agree with your friend. Mostly up
and right unless there is an overriding reason for another orientation. Also
with highway work you usually have stationing increasing to the right. That
can sometimes conflict with the up/right rule.

I wish your were correct about Surveyors only drawing undeveloped ground.
around 80% of my time locating and drawing existing features. At someplace
like the Bronx Zoo that can get complicated.

North up the page for Cartography is mainly so the users can orient
themselves quickly.

Allen

"Tom Smith" <nospam> wrote in message news:4086ceda$1_1@newsprd01...

Tom Smith

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Apr 21, 2004, 5:11:22 PM4/21/04

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No offense intended. In my field most of the "surveys" I see are bare sites,
the drawings you describe would be included in what I'd call development
drawings, i.e. the existing conditions.

jackshield

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Apr 21, 2004, 5:52:01 PM4/21/04

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I point mine north?

Tom Whatley

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Apr 21, 2004, 6:42:06 PM4/21/04

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"Ian A. White" <s...@sig.below> wrote in message
news:cpqd80tdpqgarjoll...@4ax.com...

> I would be surprised if this is the case. The convention taught here in
> Australia is that north should generally point to the top or LEFT of the
> page. This is so that text can be read right way up as text should
> generally flow horizontally left to right or vertically bottom to top.
>

Thats the way I was taught. For the same reason you indicated as well as
plans being bound on the left. Of course I'm in surveying, so north is
instinctively up. I've only seen a few prints in my career with north
pointing down. I guess some people can't orient themselves on the ground
unless the plans are just the way they are standing. It always reminds me of
a friend of mine who, when following a street map, has to keep turning it
around every corner to orient himself. {:-o
____
Tom

Anne Brown

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Apr 21, 2004, 7:17:14 PM4/21/04

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Go to http://discussion.autodesk.com/index2.jspa?categoryID=22.
Put in "North arrow" with out the "" as search words and take a
look at all the past conversations on this subject.
---

Anne Brown
Discussion Groups Administrator
Autodesk, Inc.

Ron C wrote:
>
> Hello All,
>
> Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the

> North Arrow. (snip)

TALSKY

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Apr 22, 2004, 2:20:48 AM4/22/04

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If I remember correctly it was long.

Jack Talsky

"Anne Brown" <discussio...@autodesk.com> wrote in message
news:408700FA...@autodesk.com...

TALSKY

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Apr 22, 2004, 2:16:10 AM4/22/04

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Made me laugh to read your question....
A year or so ago, there was a major conversation here about that very subject.

I was taught to make North either Up or to the LEFT. pointing it to the right is
like pointing it down when the paper is turned to portrait position.

There seemed to me last time around that there is no set law that it has to be this
or that. At least none that will get you sent to jail without passing Go.

I have an architect friend who insists that North always should point in the
direction of the entry or front door. His view is that contractors are a stupid lot,
and that is the only way to get them to know the correct orientation of the building
to North. Maybe he once had an experience where the the building was built
backwards.

Another friend agrees with me about up and to the left.

I have found others who agree with my first friend about pointing it toward the entry
direction.

Jack Talsky

"Ron C" <ronme...@sdii-global.com> wrote in message news:4086c093$1_3@newsprd01...

OLD-CADaver

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Apr 22, 2004, 10:34:29 AM4/22/04

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Ditto here. The first drafting class I attended back in, geez, '67, we were instructed that North was ALWAYS UP OR TO THE LEFT. Been doing it that way ever since, although I've seen the arrow pointed in every way you can imagine.

I even drew one down once. After we'd completed the entire package, the owner decided he wanted the front door facing North instead of West. With hand drawings it was loads easier to rotate the North arrow than it was to re-draw all the building plans.

Tom Smith

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Apr 22, 2004, 10:40:15 AM4/22/04

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Good old hand drawings :-)

Did you go through the Pinbar Dark Ages?

Maverick91

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Apr 22, 2004, 11:00:01 AM4/22/04

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I was disappointed that I could not find a definitive answer in my old textbooks, or even in the Architectural Graphics Standards.

The practice I was taught was to have the drawing “readable” from either the bottom or the right side of the page. Typically this means to have north pointing up, to the left, or somewhere in between. Just keep the plan clear and easy to read.

Doug Draper
Lea+Elliott, Inc.
www.leaelliott.com

OLD-CADaver

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Apr 22, 2004, 11:37:41 AM4/22/04

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>>Did you go through the Pinbar Dark Ages?<<

Oh yeah.... puke.

Sleeve garters, split blade inking pens, mixing my own ink, blow dryers, and razor blades for erasers.....
AAAARRRRRRGGGGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1
<shudder>
<breathe deep>
<count to 3,147>

Oh how I love CAD...
happy happy joy joy happy happy joy joy

Terry Scanlon

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Apr 22, 2004, 11:50:14 AM4/22/04

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Just another vote for UP and LEFT.

Terry Scanlon

Gary Lafreniere

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Apr 22, 2004, 1:32:34 PM4/22/04

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I agree with you. Quite frankly I don't see what difference it makes which
direction the North Arrow points on the sheet. In my 25+ years in this
field (architectural), I've never worked in an office that required the
North Arrow to be oriented UP or RIGHT (or LEFT). I've always drawn the
building with the front wall(s) parallel to the bottom or right side of the
sheet. It all depends on the shape of the building. The North Arrow is
then aligned with the north arrow shown on the site plans based on the
building orientatiuon on the site. We've never had any problems with
consultants or builders who couldn't marry-up the building plans with the
site plans.

I pulled out some of my old architectural drafting textbooks from school,
and every single floorplan example is drawn with the front of the building
parallel to the bottom of the sheet with the north arrow pointing to true
north. And I don't any statements that say the North Arrow must point
upward.

--
Gary Lafrenière
CAD Manager
Plan B Retail Design
Remove NO SPAM from address before replying

"Walt Engle" <wen...@houston.rr.com> wrote in message
news:4086D6BB...@houston.rr.com...
> There is no ANSI requirement. However, the usual treatment is to show the
> building/structure aligned with the drawing(s) and true north oriented
> accordingly in reference to the building/structure, such as the attached.
>
>
>

Ron C

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Apr 22, 2004, 1:53:57 PM4/22/04

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Hello again,

Just wanted to say thanks for all of the input. I wasn't sure if there was a
"standard or not, but will agree, as long as the drawings are easy to read
and logical it won't matter that much.

Regards,

Ron C

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Apr 23, 2004, 1:09:36 PM4/23/04

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I have seen some oddly angled buildings where the "front" wasn't clearly
defined, and sometimes pieces of a building oriented differently from the
rest, in order to fit on the sheet, with a "plan north" arrow and/or key
plan to indicate the relationship to the overall building.

But again, in 25 years of architectural practice in the US, I am quite sure
I have never seen any architect anywhere draw, for instance, a rectangular
floor plan oriented at an oddball angle on the drawing sheet because of the
direction of north. Site plans may show north up with the building angled,
sometimes, but not building plans. It would be an absurd use of paper, for
one thing.

The convention of squaring up the building with the sheet was well
established by the many hundreds of years of manual drafting that came
before CAD. No drafter in his right mind would voluntarily tape his sheet
down diagonally on the drafting board, with the corners hanging off the
board, so that he could use his t-square or parallel bar to draw the
right-angled building at an angle to the sheet. Again, you might see that on
a site plan, but never on any other architectural drawing.

And as every other response in this thread from the architectural field has
indicated, the universal practice is to locate the predominant "entrance" or
"front" of the thing being portrayed -- whether it's a playground or a
building -- at the bottom of the sheet.

Do a web search on "house plans" and 100% of all the plans you see will have
the front door at the bottom of the plan. That's how everyone, whether or
not they're skilled at reading plans, orients themselves to plans. Turn the
plan any other way, and the great majority of people will have a hard time
identifying the front.

I don't know where you are, or whose drawings you're looking at, or why
they're the way you describe, but it's not standard practice.

N33W117

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Apr 23, 2004, 2:24:22 PM4/23/04

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See replies in line:

"Tom Smith" <nospam> wrote in message news:40894dd0$1_2@newsprd01...

> I have seen some oddly angled buildings where the "front" wasn't clearly
> defined, and sometimes pieces of a building oriented differently from the
> rest, in order to fit on the sheet, with a "plan north" arrow and/or key
> plan to indicate the relationship to the overall building.

OK, I agree.

>
> But again, in 25 years of architectural practice in the US, I am quite
sure
> I have never seen any architect anywhere draw, for instance, a rectangular
> floor plan oriented at an oddball angle on the drawing sheet because of
the
> direction of north. Site plans may show north up with the building angled,
> sometimes, but not building plans. It would be an absurd use of paper, for
> one thing.

OK, I agree. Never said they did.

>
> The convention of squaring up the building with the sheet was well
> established by the many hundreds of years of manual drafting that came
> before CAD. No drafter in his right mind would voluntarily tape his sheet
> down diagonally on the drafting board, with the corners hanging off the
> board, so that he could use his t-square or parallel bar to draw the
> right-angled building at an angle to the sheet. Again, you might see that
on
> a site plan, but never on any other architectural drawing.

OK, I agree. Never said they did.

>
> And as every other response in this thread from the architectural field
has
> indicated, the universal practice is to locate the predominant "entrance"
or
> "front" of the thing being portrayed -- whether it's a playground or a
> building -- at the bottom of the sheet.

I reviewed the other responses to this thread any found very few that even
mentioned it.

>
> Do a web search on "house plans" and 100% of all the plans you see will
have
> the front door at the bottom of the plan. That's how everyone, whether or
> not they're skilled at reading plans, orients themselves to plans. Turn
the
> plan any other way, and the great majority of people will have a hard time
> identifying the front.

No thanks, no really that concerned about it.

>
> I don't know where you are, or whose drawings you're looking at, or why
> they're the way you describe, but it's not standard practice.

I looked at a dozen different architects drawing in our current jobs and
found that most were not located with the front of the building at the
bottom, but most with north up, and no, none where cock-eyed. I am in San
Diego, going to the beach now, bye.

>
>

Tom Smith

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Apr 23, 2004, 3:32:44 PM4/23/04

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Front at the bottom is by far the most common convention, and though you
seem eager to argue the point because of some architects' drawings in your
office, you're not "interested" enough to do a 2 minute exercise on seeing
what is in fact the near-universal convention. So why argue?

On occasion, I've turned a plan sideways on a sheet, if that's the only way
it would fit. It's better to contradict the convention than to break a plan
in pieces, or reduce the scale, to make it fit the paper. But in those cases
I've generally included an indication like "Front" or "Entrance" to clarify
the atypical orientation.

You seem to be saying that these buildings all happen to sit orthogonal to
the sheet, and coincidentally have north pointing up. This could only happen
if the building lots were laid out on an orthogonal north-south grid. I made
the natural assumption that you were talking about a cockeyed arrangement of
the building on the sheet, because it is extraordinarily rare, in general,
for a piece of property to be square with the compass.

A quick check of Mapquest shows that most of San Diego's streets are indeed
on a grid which appears to be perfectly on compass directions. Mystery
solved! In your city, most buildings are laid out by the compass, because
they have to be.

Now if you think this layout is true of the great majority of cities and
towns in the world, or that this particular town's plan determines what is
standard practice for all architects in the world, you're completely
mistaken. You're looking at a small selection of plans based on an unusual
situation.

Many urban areas are laid out on a rectangular grid, but it's seldom aligned
with the compass, and once you get outside the central business district and
encounter some topography -- even in San Diego -- the grid quickly breaks
down. Most new green-field development, out in the burbs, doesn't have
property lines that are anywhere near rectangular, or in any relationship to
north.

TALSKY

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Apr 24, 2004, 12:14:26 AM4/24/04

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Without a major war over this, because in fact, it is a humorous fact that is often
a subject of argument, I am only aware of two architects at this time who are adamant
about forcing the entry at the bottom of the sheet, and placing north where ever it
falls.

One is here in this group, and one is a friend in Los Angeles.

Of course so much has changed with regard to good sense in the past 30 years,
starting
with the air-head 60's and forward, that most rules went out the window a long time
ago.

Most buildings are oriented either by plan or accident to have one axis less than 45
degree
off of True North. Rotating the building so that it is orthogonal to the sheet is
common
practice, as you stated, but forcing the entry to be facing down is only common to
those who
chose to do so, and not by actual drafting tradition, or drafting rules.

On a recent project that my friend needed help producing, he insisted on North being
DOWN.
The civil engineer had already drawn the site plan a year ahead of this project, and
North was UP.

The architect, my friend, was adamant. North is down. The civil somehow became
confused, and
flipped the site plan left to right, inside of top to bottom, and then turned the
North arrow down.

I drew the architectural site plan from that plan, and then located all the existing
to be removed structures.

Two weeks into drawing the floor plans, I noticed something was odd about the site
plan that was in conflict with something else.

The result was that everything had to be drawn over. Well, being on a computer
helped for once, but still, the
civil engineer was pissed off, and the architect and the civil each thinks the other
is an idiot as a result.

The entry to this project wasn't even on the top or bottom.....in its correct
position, according to the compass, it should have been on the left, but placing
North Down, placed the entry to the right edge of the sheet. Well that was the entry
to the site plan...via the security gate, and a driveway, but the structure did have
its entry side facing the bottom of the sheet.

I have other architect friends who are just as adamant about the Up or to the Left of
the North Arrow.

Everyone seems to have their own reasoning on this, but it seems to me that there
should be some common consist points of reference
between the orientation of the site and the orientation of the building, from sheet
to sheet when at all possible, and also between disciplines whenever possible.

Any confusion over this controversy when actually trying to use the plans to build
something is usually not long lasting. The problem is that an assumption can be made
without realizing for a week that there is a conflict between two sheets that show
North in two different directions. By then it could be costly.

What I am really trying to say here is that so far in the past 50 years at least,
most buildings get built facing the correct direction, regardless of conflicts
between disciplines, or inconsistencies between sheets. It is not a subject worthy
of anger or stress, or flinging insults, but it is a subject, much like decimal scale
vs. architectural scale....that is better suited to be laughed at, and tolerated at
the time someone tells you to locate the North arrow facing the opposite of your own
preference.

So have a laugh over this, and enjoy the great weekend weather....at least it is
fantastic out here on the west coast, San Diego included, and even here near LAX
where I am.

Jack Talsky

TALSKY

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Apr 24, 2004, 12:15:10 AM4/24/04

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You did this on purpose didn't you? Did you know you would start a war over this
question?

Jack Talsky

"Ron C" <ronme...@sdii-global.com> wrote in message news:4086c093$1_3@newsprd01...

> Hello All,
>
> Does anybody know if there is ANSI (or other) standard for orienting the

Tom Smith

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Apr 26, 2004, 10:29:49 PM4/26/04

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Thanks, Jack. Kind words and good sense.

Actually I had a lovely weekend, working on my watercolor paintings, my personal relief from the hard-line world. It was beautiful here on the East coast as well.

My current painting effort is trying to learn to portray foliage, even as our oak trees leaf out. A small sketch is at http://thewareplace.com/tsmith/oak2ndtrylores.jpg

Protector

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Apr 27, 2004, 3:08:58 AM4/27/04

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Oh to be able to unwind.

"Tom Smith" <nos...@address.withheld> wrote in message
news:24814903.108303302...@jiveforum2.autodesk.com...

TALSKY

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Apr 27, 2004, 10:50:57 AM4/27/04

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That is really nice.

In case you need a place to post them for friends, etc., Epson has a free site...
www.photo.epson.com 100 mb of free space.

I have tried my hand at watercolor, but never could get it right...it takes a lot of
practice.

If you have more, send me the site where I can see them. j.ta...@comcast.net

Check this site out: http://tinyurl.com/v3yz

Jack

"Tom Smith" <nos...@address.withheld> wrote in message
news:24814903.108303302...@jiveforum2.autodesk.com...

DFrank

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Apr 29, 2004, 3:41:55 PM4/29/04

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If you reorientated your desk would you need to redraw???