Barton Creek bike bridge
T. Thayer
bike bridge at MoPac because it would involve laying columns into the creek area
and possibly disturbing the aquifer.
The need for columns arises because for some reason the bridge cannot be hung
from the existing MoPac bridge in a structurally sound way.
Does anyone know anything more about this? Do other environmental groups also
oppose the bridge?
The Barton Creek bridge would be a much needed link from SW Austin to the
central city. US 290/71 and parts of S Lamar to a lesser extent are barriers
for people coming from the SW. A bridge over Barton Creek with some kind of
bicycle facility along the MoPac frontage road would be a quick link to Zilker
Park and Austin HS (which draws from parts of SW Austin).
I think there should be a way to do the project where it is environmentally
friendly, unless there are karst features right where the columns are planned.
I think a short term disturbance from building the bridge is outweighed by the
long term benefits of increasing cycling and promoting bike commuting in this
area. I would hate to see environmental groups working against bike projects.
Tom Thayer
Doug McLaren
| I recently heard that the Austin Sierra Club voted to oppose the Barton Creek
| bike bridge at MoPac because it would involve laying columns into the creek area
| and possibly disturbing the aquifer.
| The need for columns arises because for some reason the bridge cannot be hung
| from the existing MoPac bridge in a structurally sound way.
The existing bridge isn't very tall. There may not be room to put it
underneath and yet have enough space below and above the new bridge
bits. At least that's what I recall from my very limited time down
there -- I could be wrong.
| Does anyone know anything more about this? Do other environmental groups also
| oppose the bridge?
It's just a hunch, but I'm guessing the Sierra Club generally opposes
any construction near or on the greenbelt or aquifer, whatever the
benefits.
Looks like our old friend M1EK has already weighed in on this --
http://mdahmus.monkeysystems.com/blog/archives/000668.html
| The Barton Creek bridge would be a much needed link from SW Austin to the
| central city.
Yup. I'd be one of those to benefit greatly, living in Oak Hill and
working at Mopac and Barton Skyway. If I were to take Lamar (or the
other roads near it) to work, it would double the length of my
commute.
--
Doug McLaren, dou...@frenzied.us
"Bother," said Pooh as he pushed Christopher Robin over the cliff.
Kedron Jerome Touvell
committee voted on this project, so perhaps I can shed some light on
this. It was reported to us that there were two methods staff was
looking at:
1. A cantilever design - this would require us to shore the pilings
up. Test drills show its all karst at least 90 feet down. This could
be extremely destructive as we are directly in the recharge zone here
and we have no idea what
2. Build a separate structure for bikes. This would require new
pilings but they'd be smaller. They could also possibly move them
away from the creek bed.
We heard some speculative options for this - one from Bruce Melton
which would be a pressure pylon placed directly on top of the ground.
We decided to oppose any construction that drills through karst - we
would be happy to support a variant of #2 away from the karst or a
solution such as Melton's above ground pylons. A further reason for
our opposition is that we are currently in a lawsuit with the City of
Austin over karst drilling for WTP #4 - for consistency we can hardly
support drilling for this project, even though we laud its goals.
Another factor for our position was the Lamar corridor, which we feel
is a better use of the large amount of money allocated for Mopac.
Although m1ek points out that this won't be as convenient for Oak Hill
Commuters, it certainly will serve a larger population that is already
proven to bike in larger numbers. We feel it is a better investment,
though in our discussion we mentioned many times the need for further
information from staff.
I love m1ek, but once again he paints with a too-broad brush. The
members of our excomm hardly fit in with the ridiculous stereotypes he
promulgates on his blog (only 1 out of 7 lived in the suburbs at the
time of the meeting - it may be zero now that we've had fresh
elections). We discussed this matter for nearly 45 minutes, weighing
the points for and against, and finally coming to the decision we made
with some reluctance. I don't feel like our decision is final - we
oppose the bridge in its current incarnation, but remain hopeful that
modifications removing the requirement to drill through the karst will
be found.
Anyway, this is just my opinion, not the opinion of the entire excomm.
Kedron
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Kedron Jerome Touvell
On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Kedron Jerome Touvell
<m...@kedrontouvell.com> wrote:
> 1. A cantilever design - this would require us to shore the pilings
> up. Test drills show its all karst at least 90 feet down. This could
> be extremely destructive as we are directly in the recharge zone here
> and we have no idea what
This could be extremely destructive as we are directly in the recharge
zone here and we have no idea what lies underneath the ground, as
shown by the test well last year that dried up a spring.
T. Thayer
too.
I don't know for sure, but I think more people from SW Austin would bike if they
felt they had a safer route. Coming from Oak Hill, US 290/71 to S Lamar can be
intimidating for less than experienced cyclists, even with partial bike lanes on
S Lamar. Add lots of turning traffic into parking lots, and I think some kind
of bike infrastructure along the outer lanes of the MoPac frontage road would
feel safer. The safest route from SW Austin to the central city would be to
take bike route 82 to route 31, but that is a lot longer than a more direct
route and includes more hills.
Of course, I still support improvement to the S Lamar corridor, but I am not
sure what plans there are other than expanding the current bike lanes.
Tom Thayer
Wes Robinson
The bridge over Barton Creek is a significant barrier to a lot of cyclists in S.W. and West Austin. I would say that after we open up N.W. Austin via infrastructure at 183/360/Mopac, S.W. and West Austin is the most isolated area within the city limits and this bridge is the only solution that I have seen that will solve the problem. Does it make sense for the Sierra Club to come out in opposition to this project when they "have no idea what lies underneath the ground?" I mean, from what I read below, it all seems very speculative at best.
Wes Robinson
-----Original Message-----
From: austi...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Kedron Jerome Touvell
Sent: Wed 12/29/2010 4:45 PM
To: doug.m...@gmail.com
Cc: T. Thayer; austi...@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: [AustinBAC] Barton Creek bike bridge
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Peter Wall
Kedron Jerome Touvell
out what is in the next chamber is to pull the trigger, often with
inconvenient results. In this case, the only way to find out what's
underneath is to drill, often with damaging results. Get it?
Kedron
Laura Pierce Carbonneau
It might be good to educate the folks on the list about the fragile nature of the Karst aquifer. Pretty much anything that sits on top of it and is then rained upon will likely end up in the aquifer and then in Barton Springs. OIl, silt, dirt, etc. And then there is the unique ecosystem with all of the wildlife there.
It would be great to take away some space from cars on that bridge to give to bicycles. Politically not feasible though. We need unique thinkers and engineers IMHO.
Are there any studies that show if a bike bridge is built there, it will *reduce* car traffic?
Laura
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Wes Robinson
Laura said, “Are there any studies that show if a bike bridge is built there, it will *reduce* car traffic?” Are there any bicycle facilities in Austin that were built because there was a study that showed that if we built that particular project, it would reduce car traffic? Careful what you ask for. That’s not the standard and if we start pushing to use that standard, no bicycle facilities will ever be built in this city. Is there a study that shows a reduction in car trips if we build a bike boulevard over Lady Bird Lake? How about one that supports bicycle/pedestrian improvements to the 183/360/Mopac intersections, the downtown bike boulevard, pfluger bridge, or Lance Armstrong Bikeway? The standard is and should be connectivity and, if you simply look at the COA bicycle map, you’ll see that a bicycle/pedestrian bridge over Barton Creek at Mopac will open up a whole section of the city to cyclists. A section that was largely ignored by Prop. 1 as far as non-motor vehicle projects go.
In regard to the question about do we get it, I think we do. It appears that the Sierra Club is concerned about possible negative impacts to Barton Springs. I think we all understand that. However, the concern is speculative at best. First, it sounds like there are alternative construction methods being considered that would mitigate the impact to the creek. Rather than support alternative construction methods, it sound like the Sierra Club just decided to jump out and oppose the bridge. Second, nobody has explained why we were able to build two bridges each 60 feet wide and more than a quarter mile long with dozens of support beams drilled into the creek bed that support 7 lanes of traffic but we can’t build a bike/ped bridge over the same section of the creek without committing Russian Roulette suicide.
The Sierra Club’s leadership is certainly entitled to make that judgment call, but organizations responsible for supporting bicycling like the BAC, ACA, LOBV, etc. should be educating its members on why the Sierra Club’s decision is wrong. They should be telling their members why supporting bicycle connectivity into and out of S.W. Austin is an important part of Austin’s bicycle network. While I don’t care much for the rhetoric, it seems like that’s what M1EK is trying to do in his post.
Wes Robinson
Laura Pierce Carbonneau
As for the building of the MOPAC bridge over Barton Creek - Mopac Expressway was built in the 70s, before there was concerted, organized effort to protect the aquifer and Barton Springs, so you can't really use that in your argument.
I personally do really hope that the City can find a low-impact way to build the bike bridge.
C Denise Shaw
http://www.bridgemeister.com/pic.php?pid=1176 (don't think metal grating would make a good riding surface, especially when wet)
Imagine if it could be a landmark structure in Austin ... Like the Pennymaker bridge at 360 ... This is a bike bridge in Germany:
http://www.123rf.com/photo_2773098_modern-suspension-bridge--gelsenkirchen-germany--european-cultural-capital-2010--the-bridge-was-buil.html
Date: Thu, 30 Dec 2010 09:35:18 -0600
Subject: Re: [AustinBAC] Barton Creek bike bridge
To: wrob...@jsitel.com
CC: ked...@gmail.com; stu...@gmail.com; doug.m...@gmail.com; tom_t...@yahoo.com; austi...@googlegroups.com
Walker, David [APD]
can we look into a small suspension bridge ? I think that would make the Sierra Club happy.. make for some killer P.R. photos.
> ------------------------------
>
> *From:* Laura Pierce Carbonneau [mailto:laur...@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Thursday, December 30, 2010 8:05 AM
> *To:* ked...@gmail.com
> *Cc:* Stuart Werbner; Wes Robinson; doug.m...@gmail.com; T. Thayer;
> austi...@googlegroups.com
>
> *Subject:* Re: [AustinBAC] Barton Creek bike bridge
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Kedron Jerome Touvell
and we actually have a guy (Roy Waley) who has been engaging city
staff on this issue and trying to find something that works. Our
opposition was to the current design at this time. Believe me, there
was a lot of heartache on the committee to even state a preliminary
opposition to a bike project. Also as I mentioned, I consider our
position a somewhat temporary one, with the expectation that there
will be some give and take with staff.
Regarding the second part, yes we fought against the original
placement of Mopac as well in addition to the massive amount of
development it prompted in the region, and we still do as seen in the
recent SH 45 SW wars or any number of other projects in the last few
years. We lost. Water quality suffered terribly as a result.
Kedron
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 8:48 AM, Wes Robinson <wrob...@jsitel.com> wrote:
Wes Robinson
Thanks.
Kedron Jerome Touvell
environmental groups, asking if there were any concerns about the
project. I haven't read my newsletter yet - is the only mention of it
in the excomm minutes or is there an article?
Kedron
Ricardo
landmark size, but yes, an attraction for sure.
Ask TxDOT to look for sources (engineers/architects) who can input
unique and proven ideas.
Maybe a design contest between engineering and architectural
students.
Just my humble 2cents.
ricardo t.
Wes Robinson
Wes
Thumbed on a Droid
-----Original message-----
From: Kedron Jerome Touvell <m...@kedrontouvell.com>
To: Wes Robinson <wrob...@jsitel.com>
Cc: Laura Pierce Carbonneau <laur...@gmail.com>, Stuart Werbner <stu...@gmail.com>, doug.m...@gmail.com, "T. Thayer" <tom_t...@yahoo.com>, austi...@googlegroups.com
Sent: Thu, Dec 30, 2010 22:52:30 GMT+00:00
Subject: Re: [AustinBAC] Barton Creek bike bridge
From what I understand, the city bicycle staff contacted all the
environmental groups, asking if there were any concerns about the
project. I haven't read my newsletter yet - is the only mention of it
in the excomm minutes or is there an article?
Kedron
On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 4:41 PM, Wes Robinson wrote:
> Had someone come to the Sierra Club asking them to weigh in on the proposed Mopac bike/ped bridge? If not, why did the Sierra Club feel compelled to jump out and oppose it? Are they about to break ground on the project or something? I just don't understand the decision to come out and oppose a project that, to my knowledge, is a long way from being considered. Particularly when it risks isolating the club's bicycling friends. What was the motivation for vocalizing opposition?
>
> Thanks.
>
> Wes Robinson
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: ked...@gmail.com [mailto:ked...@gmail.com] On Behalf Of Kedron Jerome Touvell
> Sent: Thursday, December 30, 2010 4:31 PM
> To: Wes Robinson
> Cc: Laura Pierce Carbonneau; Stuart Werbner; doug.m...@gmail.com; T. Thayer; austi...@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: [AustinBAC] Barton Creek bike bridge
>
> Hi y'all, yes as I mentioned we are certainly open to other designs
> and we actually have a guy (Roy Waley) who has been engaging city
> staff on this issue and trying to find something that works. Our
> opposition was to the current design at this time. Believe me, there
> was a lot of heartache on the committee to even state a preliminary
> opposition to a bike project. Also as I mentioned, I consider our
> position a somewhat temporary one, with the expectation that there
> will be some give and take with staff.
>
> Regarding the second part, yes we fought against the original
> placement of Mopac as well in addition to the massive amount of
> development it prompted in the region, and we still do as seen in the
> recent SH 45 SW wars or any number of other projects in the last few
> years. We lost. Water quality suffered terribly as a result.
>
> Kedron
>
>> wrote:
>>
>> That's the problem. It's like russian roulette. The only way to find
>> out what is in the next chamber is to pull the trigger, often with
>> inconvenient results. In this case, the only way to find out what's
>> underneath is to drill, often with damaging results. Get it?
>>
>> Kedron
>>
>> On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 10:16 PM, Stuart Werbner wrote:
>>> Maybe the solution is to figure out what exactly is under the ground there
>>> instead of speculatin one way or the other.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 8:17 PM, Wes Robinson
>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The bridge over Barton Creek is a significant barrier to a lot of
>>>> cyclists
>>>> in S.W. and West Austin. I would say that after we open up N.W. Austin
>>>> via
>>>> infrastructure at 183/360/Mopac, S.W. and West Austin is the most
>>>> isolated
>>>> area within the city limits and this bridge is the only solution that I
>>>> have
>>>> seen that will solve the problem. Does it make sense for the Sierra Club
>>>> to
>>>> come out in opposition to this project when they "have no idea what lies
>>>> underneath the ground?" I mean, from what I read below, it all seems
>>>> very
>>>> speculative at best.
>>>>
>>>> Wes Robinson
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: austi...@googlegroups.com on behalf of Kedron Jerome Touvell
>>>> Sent: Wed 12/29/2010 4:45 PM
>>>> To: doug.m...@gmail.com
>>>> Cc: T. Thayer; austi...@googlegroups.com
>>>> Subject: Re: [AustinBAC] Barton Creek bike bridge
>>>>
>>>> oops forgot to finish this sentence:
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Dec 29, 2010 at 4:43 PM, Kedron Jerome Touvell
Tom Wald
To be fair to the Sierra Club, all that I know about what decision they have made is through the exchange of e-mails and the blog report that Doug posted yesterday and I have already stated that I did not care much for the blog's rhetoric. Maybe things have been misreported and the Sierra Club has merely stated that it has some concerns with the current design and it has not decided to oppose the bridge outright. If staff was merely asking if anybody had concerns with the current design, that would seem to be a reasonable response. Maybe when you get something official from the Sierra Club we will see a softer position than what has been attributed to them. Thank you for helping us better understand the situation.
Wes
Thumbed on a Droid
From what I know through conversations with city staff and the e-mails from Kedron about the Sierra Club decision, this assessment sounds correct. I recommend not basing your concerns about bike issues on a flaming blog.
-Tom