Exit numbering trial (?) on M31 Hume Motorway

[Luke W]

Hi Aussie Hwys folks, long time no see.

Coming home this evening, I noticed that some of the ADs on the Hume (south of the M7/M5 merge) have picked up shiny new exit number patches that weren't there last night.

Similar to QLD's single-line design as opposed to VIC's, but placed in the bottom-left corner of the fork AD signs, kinda like the junction numbers are in the UK. I'm pretty sure this is different to how QLD does it on the few fork sign they have (as they generally don't use that), but I'm not sure how they'll handle double-exit signs like the A28/M7 junction.

They're sequential like VIC's - Brooks Road was Exit 3 and Narellan Road was Exit 6 - which is probably going to spark more grumblings about no common standard...

They haven't bothered doing anything on overhead signs - such as at Campbelltown Road, what would be Exit 5 (probably different contractor even if this was a start of a full implementation) or on the at-slip-road sign yet, which makes me wonder if it's just a trial at the moment.

Not sure if I have much opinion either way at this stage, besides thinking that it's probably a reasonable place to put the exit number seeing that NSW is in a bit of a unique situation with those large fork ADs and such.

~ Luke

[Paul Rands]

Thanks Luke,

It’ll be interesting to see how the implementation works.

I am surprised to see NSW putting them in to be honest and I wonder if they’ll be limited to Sydney only or throughout the state on M1/A1 and M31, etc?


Paul Rands
li...@paulrands.com

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[Nihat]

i would have thought the F3 would be the better one and most useful to have exit numbering to start with?

~ Luke

[Luke W]

Hi Paul,

I'm a bit surprised too to be honest!

Having gone a little further south, I can say that they've gone as far as the Mittagong bypass exit (B79/Old Hume Hwy), as exit 11. I haven't checked northbound yet, and the Berrima south exit (Medway Road) - prospective exit 13 - wasn't done. I doubt they'll bother beyond the end of motorway conditions.

At exits south of Narellan Road they've generally also coverplated the word "Exit" on the last AD sign with the exit number patch, and to be honest it looks a little sloppy to me. The Mittagong turnoff also had an example of "Use Exit 11" (for Wombeyan Caves/Bradman Museum", exit number patch coverplating "Next Exit".

Sequential numbering seems reasonable when most of the interchanges are already settled like on the F3, but it doesn't make sense here when we know there'll likely be new interchanges in the next 5-10 years... expect a slightly messy Exit 6A and 6B for the future proposed interchanges at Gilead and at Wilton Town Centre. They could've chosen to presume they will get built and call Picton Road "Exit 9" instead of Exit 7 - but it wouldn't have needed the hassle if it were Exit 39 or something instead...

~ L

[davis]

That's genuinely hard:

What's an F3? Also how do you do its exit numbering? Is Exit 1 the Pennant Hills Road junction and 2 the Pacific Hwy? And NorthConnex Exit 3? It's also Exit -1 then. Should NorthConnex have continuous exit numbering with it? Presumably not because it will have a different route number (M7? M28?). So what numbers do you apply to NorthConnex?

[Mees Roelofs]

Has a number been attributed to NorthConnex yet? I could imagine it being numbered M1, as it will become the logical extension of the F3 (now M1) and will become the primary route between Sydney and the North. You would then renumber current A1 and M2 to create a continuing M1 between Sydney Airport and Beresfield (if not beyond) via Harbour Tunnel, Lane Cove and NorthConnex. I could imagine that this uncertainty is a principal reason not to start exit numbering yet on the F3 or, in fact, anywhere North of Sydney. 

The Hume Hwy has a terminus that is much easier to designate, so it's an easy place to just crack on. I agree with others that km-based numbers would be best for rural highways, as it's difficult to predict how the road might be extended. In addition to exits being added, it is equally perceivable that at-grade junctions in rural NSW that are initially numbered will fall away as part of future upgrades. 

I'd be interested in seeing a picture of an NSW sign with exit numbering!

Best regards,

Mees

[Michael Mak]

If my memory serves me right in one of promotional video for Northconnex, it has M28 in it. But I think M1 or even M7 would be better than M28. If Lane Cove Tunnel and part of M2 Hills Motorway becomes M1, then the Pacific Highway could get a new alpha marker (A21?), and the M2/A2 route will terminate at the new M1/M2/A28 junction?  

Sent from my iPad

[Brendan Terrett]

DID SOMEONE SAY PHOTOS???

You can see the rest here : https://www.flickr.com/photos/63973275@N03/albums/72157668238460642

I went down to Berrima. I was able to get photos up to Avon Dam Road, but past that I felt unsafe stopping (I was surrounded by trucks which were blowing my little Suzuki Jimny to and fro).

No exit numbering installed northbound yet.

At the Old Hume exit at Mittagong, the "USE NEXT EXIT" part of the sign was replaced by "USE [EXIT 11]". A bit confusing when the next few signs didn't have the exit number! Hopefully they'll fix that in the coming days.

It looks like standard exit signage is very, very easy to retrofit exit numbering. The fact that NSW has "EXIT" already as part of the legend on most signs at the exit makes it really easy for the RMS to place a new coverplate with an exit number on it. It's also nice to see the wasted space on the fork signage being used up. 

I agree that the sequential exit numbering seems very inflexible, especially when the highway goes through Menangle and Douglas Park which may end up receiving one exit each in the distant future. I think it needs work, but I suspect the RMS will probably stick with it on future exit numbering endeavours.

[Aevion]

Interesting. I always had it in my mind that NSW would one day adopt the system. Not sure if I like how it looks, but then again I don't particularly like the QLD look(s) either. Or any QLD sign for that matter. Maybe if it was above the road name I'd like it more.

[Henry Ung]

I am a bit confused on where the exit sequence starts. If Brooks Road is exit 3, then going back the Hume Highway at Liverpool would then be exit 1 and the M7 interchange is exit 2.

--

[davis]

Which makes sense internally (because the declared HW designation starts there), but is going to be confusing in other circumstances if it doesn't follow the route numbering instead of the declared route designation)

[Brendan Terrett]

I think its like this:

M7 (signed nthbnd only) - Exit 1
Camden Valley Way/Campbelltown Road - Exit 2 (signed nthbnd only)
Brooks Road - Exit 3 (signed southbound only)

[Mees Roelofs]

The M7/Hume Mwy/South Western Mwy would in my opinion be a much better point to designate as Exit 1. However, this does tie in with a broader point as far as Sydney's motorway network is concerned: road numbers change at seemingly random places. You'll understand why when you are familiar with the historical background, but will motorists be forever better off with things like the M2/A2/M7 changeover and with the current official start of the M31. I'd say that, with exit numbering, these changes in the middle of some suburb will become more visible than they are now, hence this might be a good moment to reconsider. 

For the M31, I'd propose exit 1 at the M7, while M2 could be completely absorbed by M1 and M7 when NorthConnex will be opened.  The M1 will, by the way, also be challenging. What are they going to pick as Exit 1 there?

As regards the position of the exit number: I like the South African style of using the top left corner of a sign. 

[Paul Rands]

Thanks Brendan

Very QLD style, which is good, leaves the Vic style for dead.

The cover plating seems sloppy though

Paul Rands

li...@paulrands.com

[Sam Laybutt]

Well, looks like I'll be going for a drive down the Hume next time I'm in town!

Interested to see how this plays out. Thanks for grabbing the photos Brendan. 

---

From: li...@paulrands.com
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Exit numbering trial (?) on M31 Hume Motorway
Date: Thu, 19 May 2016 22:37:11 +1000
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com

[Luke W]

On Thursday, 19 May 2016 21:28:24 UTC+10, Brendan Terrett wrote:

I think its like this:

M7 (signed nthbnd only) - Exit 1
Camden Valley Way/Campbelltown Road - Exit 2 (signed nthbnd only)
Brooks Road - Exit 3 (signed southbound only)

That's indeed what it probably would be - northbound M7 interchange as Exit 1 (seeing the AD signs that show the M7 splits from the M5 and not the other way around).
Narellan Road is then Exit 6 because of the new northbound exit to Old Campbelltown Road at Ingleburn/Denham Court, and then Campbelltown Road southbound (which isn't signed as Exit 5 yet presumably because all the signs are overhead).
I presume it'll just be a Queensland-style topknot for the lane-allocation signs, once they get around to it.

As for Mees' suggestion about the South African style of top-left: the other thing about the South African system is the naming of the exits as well as the numbering - something like that would have fit in well on the Pacific Mwy where some of the exits have been traditionally named rather than numbered (and more have been in the past few years), although at the same time you could mount an argument about whether an exit number would relegate names like the "Calga interchange" into redundancy.

In any case, thanks again Brendan for grabbing the photos! :)

[Luke Wright]

Just a very small update to this - in the past few days they've also gone and replaced a sign or two at the exit gores with exit number signs - certainly at Brooks Rd and Campbelltown Rd (This would be the first "Exit 5" signage for the latter). Narellan Rd wasn't done for some reason yet, not sure about any further. Still only southbound.

Nothing too special about them (not really worth taking the photo myself) - but predictably they're sticking to the standard established in Queensland; arrow on top, exit number patch underneath.

~ Luke

[Brendan Terrett]

Yes, most of the exit gore signage has been replaced. Some northbound signage at the A9 interchange has also been patched. Shitty night screenshots from dash cam attached.

--

[davis]

Signage for A9 will no doubt be replaced as part of the interchange upgrade, so coverplates only stands to reason. Hopefully all the Mittagong and Berrima bypass junction signs are done now because previously there were references to "<Focal Point> use <Exit n>" but <Exit n> was not yet numbered.

[Luke Wright]

Adding one final footnote to the exit numbering saga: the M7/M5 (Cutler VC) interchange has finally been signed - northbound only, as that's the only part that's actually M31.

As for which is Exit 1: well, they both are. Signed "Exit 1 North" and "Exit 1 East" (sic) for the M7 and M5 respectively (so much for any sort of standards with them not only using the cardinals but also *spelling them out*...)

This came a few weeks after some more elaborate signs for the Cutler VC interchange were installed - which made me think they were going to skimp on "Exit 1" entirely (because of the three-way interchange thing) and just call it the Cutler interchange. But no, there you go.

May try and grab a vidcap or snap or two tomorrow but no guarantees.

~ Luke

[Luke Wright]

Aaaand here's the serving suggestion. Pardon the icky focus; just testing stuff here.

~ Luke

[Musa Hodzic]

It's actually funny.

On 20 October 2016 at 10:04, Luke Wright <lu...@ltw.id.au> wrote:

Aaaand here's the serving suggestion. Pardon the icky focus; just testing stuff here.

~ Luke

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[Brendan Terrett]

Here is a photograph of the old Menangle Park exit in the year 2026, shortly after the opening of the new Douglas Park exit (many thanks to The Doctor who helped me with the time travel) 

[Paul Rands]

I like that, also reinforces the direction of the routes, much like the old North Coast and South Coast focal points did in the 90s

Paul Rands

li...@paulrands.com

Sent from my iPad

On 20 Oct 2016, at 10:04 AM, Luke Wright <lu...@ltw.id.au> wrote:

Aaaand here's the serving suggestion. Pardon the icky focus; just testing stuff here.

~ Luke

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<2016_1020_085110_008.JPG>

[Musa Hodzic]

HAHAHA Brendan. It was meant to be a flop right from the start. Nothing beats the distance based exits. QLD got that one right!!

On 22 October 2016 at 07:30, Paul Rands <li...@paulrands.com> wrote:

I like that, also reinforces the direction of the routes, much like the old North Coast and South Coast focal points did in the 90s

Paul Rands

li...@paulrands.com

Sent from my iPad

On 20 Oct 2016, at 10:04 AM, Luke Wright <lu...@ltw.id.au> wrote:

Aaaand here's the serving suggestion. Pardon the icky focus; just testing stuff here.

~ Luke

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[Luke Wright]

It'd be funny if it weren't real. :)

I didn't mean "serving suggestion" in a Photoshopped sense - I was testing out a new cam (one of those GoPro clones in the car) and the windshield was a bit smudgy. That's all!

~ Luke

On Friday, 21 October 2016 09:14:44 UTC+11, Musa Hodzic wrote:

It's actually funny.

On 20 October 2016 at 10:04, Luke Wright <lu...@ltw.id.au> wrote:

Aaaand here's the serving suggestion. Pardon the icky focus; just testing stuff here.

~ Luke

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[Luke Wright]

Haha, the amount of writing on that almost looks like the Menangle Park/Gilead job was outsourced to Queensland's TMR ;)

But yeah, pardon the "serving suggestion" comment - I was testing out one of those GoPro Session clones in the car earlier in the week and the windscreen was pretty icky - hopefully the recent rain this weekend will have fixed that - but the photo is indeed real, not shopped :)

~ Luke

On Friday, 21 October 2016 23:55:00 UTC+11, Brendan Terrett wrote:

Here is a photograph of the old Menangle Park exit in the year 2026, shortly after the opening of the new Douglas Park exit (many thanks to The Doctor who helped me with the time travel) 

On Fri, Oct 21, 2016 at 9:14 AM, Musa Hodzic <musah...@gmail.com> wrote:

It's actually funny.

On 20 October 2016 at 10:04, Luke Wright <lu...@ltw.id.au> wrote:

Aaaand here's the serving suggestion. Pardon the icky focus; just testing stuff here.

~ Luke

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[Luke Wright]

For sure - given their situation and the equal split (two lanes to the M7, two to the M5), an "Exit 1N" and "Exit 1E" (or Exit 1A-B possibly) was probably the best they could do.

Although I imagine things would've been easier if they had kept the M5 going as far as Narellan Road, because now you have this mess because there's no continuing road.

We'll have to see if Brendan's mock-up of Exit 6 1/3 eventually comes to fruition (maybe that'll take us to Hogwarts via Gilead :P). I really wished they did it distance-wise like the standard - my hopes were high when I saw Exit 3 at Brooks Road the first time (as it's also roughly 3 km from the Cutler VC interchange), but pretty much crushed when we got to "Exit 5" rather than the distance-based number (which would've been Exit 9 roughly).

RMS still haven't put out a media release regarding it (as to "how simple" it is etc) so I'm still willing to call this a trial, or perhaps just doing it on the sly like the alphas initially were, before inflicting them on the other motorways. It's strange that they picked the M5 given those two extra interchanges that Brendan is alluding to over the next 15 years - something like the Pacific Motorway.

Speaking of Pacific Motorway - I wonder why naming interchanges by location like it does (Calga Interchange, Freemans Waterhole Interchange, etc) didn't catch on? Having both distance numbering and location reminds me of South African motorway signs, and sort-of assuages concerns about people not navigating by number a little too. Of course, those names change too - the "Gosford" interchange is now the "Kariong" interchange, for suburb at the top of the hill - but at least it's not arbitrary like having to slot in "Exit 6A" somewhere.

Small rant/mind-dump over :P

~ Luke

[Luke Wright]

>> It's strange that they picked the M5

Of course I mean the *M31* not the M5 - it's been a few years and I'm still not used to that bit north of Narellan Road having changed, haha. Cheers ~ Luke

[Luke Wright]

Pardon my slight spamming; it's how my mind works sometimes as I find new-to-me stuff to discuss :)

One little footnote regarding sequential vs. distance-based and what is correct: with the most up-to-date MUTCD/AS1742 that I can find (Nov 2013, from Qld TMR's site), the relevant quotes [Part 15, s3.3.4 "Exit numbering"] are:

Where exits are numbered the same number shall be used for all exits at the interchange. If there is more than one exit at an interchange for any one direction of travel, letters A, B ... etc., may be added to the interchange number to indicate successive exits.

• So Exit 1 is probably numbered okay as it is - RMS would probably argue that "Exit 1 North" vs "Exit 1N" is a matter of style and they'll excuse themselves for it (fair enough).
• If RMS eventually bother with marking Narellan Road's split exit as "Exit 6 West" towards Narellan and "Exit 6 East" towards Campbelltown, that'll at least be consistent with what Vicroads did with the revamped Tulla/M80 junction (which has a 14W and 14E for a similar situation). I'm fairly comfortable with this.

Interchange exits shall be numbered sequentially from the start of the route making allowances for any known future extension to the beginning of the route or future intermediate interchanges to be built. (Emphasis mine)

• The actual standard calling for sequential exits a la Victoria seems pretty silly for our capitals where there's a lot of infill likely to still occur. Queensland definitely had it right there in my opinion, but it sounds as if VicRoads and RMS have come in over the top of them. (Ignore NZTA as a precedent as they base their freeway signs explicitly on the American MUTCD first-and-foremost.)
• RMS is probably going to have a facepalm at some point, since the new interchanges are fairly common knowledge even if 5-10 years away - as if they considered that, this would have made Picton Road Exit 9 rather than 7.
  VicRoads likewise potentially if they start infilling between Werribee and Geelong, or between Dandenong and Pakenham, and add new roads in there. (Of course, they can always change the MUTCD since it's essentially a law unto themselves, but still...)