Freeway demolition in Australia

[#130km/hforthehume]

It's a concept that's practically unheard of in Australia, but one that I've been thinking recently about a lot after reading https://thefifthestate.com.au/urbanism/infrastructure/why-australia-needs-to-have-a-conversation-about-removing-freeways/. There was a lot of talk before the 2023 state election in NSW about demolishing the Cahill Expy after the W Harbour Tunnel opens, but that soon fizzled. I'd love to see this happen (with the City Circle railway and Circular Quay moved underground), but I'm partial to more pedestrian- and bike-friendly cities from my experience in more walkable cities (particularly those in Europe and Asia).

Are there any plans on removing/demolishing freeways (other than the Cahill Expy)? Even if there isn't, I'm interested to know what everyone else thinks about this relatively-new urban concept. Though I don't think we'll be able to transform an existing freeway corridor into a Cheonggyecheon (I haven't been to SK, but I've heard that it's one of Seoul's more popular urban recreation areas), it's an interesting concept to think about.

[Sam L]

Demolishing the Cahill Expressway has been raised every year for the past 20 years. I get the feeling that most who suggest the idea don't realise what would actually be involved in relocating the railway line, and the gigantic cost for zero benefit. We are talking billions to completely rebuild the City Circle from Town Hall to St James, to place it ~10m lower, with no increase in capacity etc. - can't possibly be justified. 

There is an argument that the Cahill Expressway is now redundant as a strategic transport link, although it is very useful when the SHT is closed for regular maintenance, crashes etc. Perhaps a better approach would be to retain the structure but close the roadway and use it as public space ala New York's High Line. 

---

From: aussie-...@googlegroups.com <aussie-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of #130km/hforthehume <thenorthernt...@gmail.com>
Sent: Monday, 24 July 2023 7:39 PM
To: Aussie Highways <aussie-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: [Aussie Highways] Freeway demolition in Australia

 

[#130km/hforthehume]

Ofc, I don't see the immediate benefits of moving the railway line underground. It doesn't cause too much of a nuisance unlike the expressway (which will almost be completely redundant after the WHT opens). I didn't think about the budget, but I agree it will be in the billions. The high-line approach, as you mentioned, has already been proposed by Clover Moore, and it would be cool to see happening. 

In saying that, though, the Cahill Walk is a very good place to take uninterrupted photos of Sydney Harbour, so it does still have some tourist appeal, but if only there were more pedestrian signs! 

[Paulg]

I have always thought a 'high line' type solution for the Cahill Expressway is a great idea, but the new Labor government isn't keen apparently: https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/labor-to-scrap-circular-quay-makeover-and-cahill-expressway-high-line-20230321-p5cty9.html

[Lachlan Sims]

Some possible contenders could be:

- Eastern end of West Gate Freeway in Melbourne

- Mitchell Freeway from The Narrows to Wellington St in Perth

- Riverside Expressway/Coro Dr/Hale St, Brisbane

All of the above are of course key through traffic routes so could not be demolished or truncated without significant diversions, reconstruction and alternative alignments.  Cost - benefit is unlikely to stack up.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Aussie Highways" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to aussie-highwa...@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/aussie-highways/SL2P216MB19462E4B4E4B57986D84D13CB103A%40SL2P216MB1946.KORP216.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM.

[Sam L]

Arguably Perth has already done this to some extent, with the development of Elizabeth Quay, and before that the construction of the Mandurah Line. What used to be a free-flowing set of freeway ramps west of Barrack Street has been replaced by an inlet with pedestrianised public space and 8 new development sites. 

---

From: aussie-...@googlegroups.com <aussie-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Lachlan Sims <lachl...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 July 2023 12:55 PM
To: aussie-...@googlegroups.com <aussie-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Freeway demolition in Australia

 

[Peter Freeman]

When demolition of Cahill Expressway first came up all those years ago, its highest profile proponent was Paul Keating, who is well-known for his many daft and non-mainstream ideas. Clover Moore is simply anti-roads: she would probably like to include the Harbour Bridge on her demolition list.

Comparison with NYC High-Line is spurious. That's delightful - I've walked it twice, but nothing there needed to be closed and nothing was demolished. The railway had shut down for economic reasons many years before, and the conversion from ugly decaying leftover to pedestrian strollway was simple and low-cost. The comparison with the well-known Japanese example is only slightly better.

Regarding the Expressway's value as a vantage point - it already is. Just use the currently-underused footway.

Regarding these:

" - Eastern end of West Gate Freeway in Melbourne

- Mitchell Freeway from The Narrows to Wellington St in Perth

- Riverside Expressway/Coro Dr/Hale St, Brisbane", 

the suggestion leaves me speechless! "Cost - benefit is unlikely to stack up" is the understatement of the century.

Regarding "I have always thought a 'high line' type solution for the Cahill Expressway is a great idea", I'd ask: 'solution' to what problem? Keating's, and presumably Moore's, issue was the visual intrusion and obscuration of Circular Quay. What has "a high line type of solution" got to do with that? The structure would still be there.

Although most first-world cities wouldn't build an obtrusive Cahill-like structure these days, the motorway network in Sydney is the envy of many around the world. Leave it alone - it's working fine, and the city council and state government have no shortage of worthy projects waiting for funds and imaginative designers.

[Albert Alcoceba]

It forms part of the Milson’s Point - Harbour Bridge - Botanical Gardens pedestrian walkway, albeit rather cramped over Circular Quay.  Closing the road and making it a pedestrian only place would have some benefits.

[Sam L]

Yes - the existing walkway is very underutilised, mainly because it doesn't go anywhere useful (aside from being a tourist/exercise route), it is not easy to get to and the amenity is very poor - it's a relatively narrow path right next to a busy expressway. Closing it to traffic and developing a High Line style public space with a Sydney flavour would change the amenity significantly and give more people a reason to access the space and linger there.

However, as Peter noted the main public proponents of demolishing the Expressway always talk about the interruption to visual connections between the City and the Quay, which a High Line type project would not address at all.

So it will probably go nowhere until the structure reaches the end of its life and then maybe...

---

From: aussie-...@googlegroups.com <aussie-...@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Albert Alcoceba <alber...@gmail.com>
Sent: Wednesday, 26 July 2023 5:54 PM
To: Aussie Highways <aussie-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Freeway demolition in Australia

 

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/aussie-highways/F8AC55A6-FB02-4916-8E7C-EF855AC063AE%40gmail.com.

[#130km/hforthehume]

Regarding the existing Cahill Walk, in addition to what Sam mentioned, anecdotally, I only found the walkway a few years ago by chance. It's been a few years since I went there, but IIRC (correct me if I'm wrong), the primary way to access the walk was through https://goo.gl/maps/LC2qGTiajWvEwg6W8, a set of stairs that you have to discover by chance and know its existence (which was my case) to know it leads to the Cahill Walk. It's also probably why not many people know of Pylon Lookout's existence. 

Also, Peter, while there are a lot of things I disagree with you in that thread (you only have to ask Sam for endless examples of my unpopular opinions that I've expressed on this group!), where are you getting the notion that "the motorway network in Sydney is the envy of many around the world"? Nowhere have I ever seen or heard anything like this elsewhere in Aus and overseas. Syd has more tunnels than most other cities, but it is nothing compared to Norway or the Faroe Islands, two places known for their obsession with building tunnels (not a bad thing). 

[Peter Freeman]

Notion from?  (a) Many friends and associates overseas, especially in the UK, which I visit, and drive in, frequently.

(b)  Another forum in which I participate,

Norway's and Faroe Islands' extremely impressive tunnels are quite different from, and built for entirely differnt reasons to, Sydney's; and their traffic environments are in no way comparable to Sydney's.

[#130km/hforthehume]

Okay, maybe Sydney's motorway network might be good for Australian or UK standards, but it's not for Asian, European, or North American standards, which is a far cry from "the world".

[Albert Alcoceba]

You can now access the walkway via a set of lifts next to the Cahill Expressway/Railway opposite the walkway to the Opera House here:

https://goo.gl/maps/JfesWLvpJz7uuud46

and from a ramp in the Botanical Gardens here:

https://goo.gl/maps/xuT1SPU1EgYP34N89

To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/aussie-highways/1f2295ef-02a8-488c-8af0-87fccab42156n%40googlegroups.com.