Hume Hwy, Longwood East bypass - when

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Ben Renegar

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Mar 8, 2023, 2:05:00 AM3/8/23
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As far as I know the route for the Hume Highway between Euroa and Seymour went through Longwood, Locksley and Avenel until being bypassed in 1984. The old road is now Avenel-Longwood Rd.
On the current highway is itself another tiny bypass of the town Longwood East. The old highway sits largely abandoned - due to the incline looked to be a 4 lane carriageway, and its a lot of bitumen. This section just ends abruptly near Berrys Lane.

Does anybody know when Longwood East was bypassed and why? Does this mean duplication between Longwood and Avenel happened after/separately to the bypass of those towns?

IMG_1365.jpg
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Longwood - until 1984.png

Csanad Csutoros

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Mar 8, 2023, 3:08:00 AM3/8/23
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Longwood East / Old Longwood bypassed in 1984.
Avenel - Longwood Road (ie. top pink line) wasn't Hume Highway, although it is understandable why it would appear so. The current Melbourne bound carriageway between the Longwood East bypass and the substandard intersection (currently speed limited to 80 due to increased traffic) at Avenel is the original two way Hume carriageway, with the Wodonga bound side constructed as a duplication in late 70s / very early 80s.
Csanad

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Lachlan Sims

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Mar 8, 2023, 3:47:25 AM3/8/23
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Further to this - I believe the old Hume Hwy route followed the now Seymour-Avenel Road, then Henry Street through Avenel and along what is now Spencer Rd.  The google street view imagery on Spencer Road at Avenel shows generally old style rural highway conditions.

There's a gap in the online historical aerial photography coverage between Avenel and Euroa, but the screenshot below from the 1945 imagery shows the main road through Avenel on that alignment referenced above.

If anyone is interested, the online historical imagery for Victoria can be found here http://mapshare.vic.gov.au/webmap/historical-photomaps/


Lachlan

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Ben Renegar

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Mar 10, 2023, 9:46:33 PM3/10/23
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Before the intersection at Avenel was constructed referred to by Csanad, as part of the bypass of Seymour to Tallarook, the Hume did go into Avenel via what is now Spencer Rd (doesn't connect with the Hume Fwy).
They should have kept this road as the northbound ramp out of Avenel - rather than the 80km/h intersection, but that's another topic.

Avenel - until 1989.png

Southbound - toward Avenel

2022_0306_235553.JPG

Northbound

2022_0326_203750.JPG

Csanad Csutoros

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Mar 10, 2023, 10:49:01 PM3/10/23
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Perhaps upgrading all intersections with appropriate interchanges (for current and medium future term traffic volumes) along designated "M" routes should be the next massive road construction project. A combined effort by governments at all levels and all persuasions working together for the good of the nation. <sigh> I imagine though that such a project would both cost way more than expected (I readily admit I haven't the faintest idea of co$t even in general terms) and without the positive publicity of a shiny, new major project (it'd be widely considered as maintenance rather than new construction), no politician would countenance such a program. So that leaves the slow attritional improvement process where tolerance of a few known black spots and/or bottlenecks, eventually reaches a nadir so an upgrade at that particular location is unavoidable.
Still, it's nice to dream.... 😀

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#130km/hforthehume

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Mar 14, 2023, 9:48:27 AM3/14/23
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@Csanad You're not alone in thinking this. I'm one of the believers who find situations like Rockbank (on M8), Calder Park (on M79), or Kalkallo, all three of which are near Melbourne, as failures of long-term planning.
 
If my comments from a few other threads did not ultimately convey my POV, major intercity highways, such as the Hume between Kalkallo and Wangaratta (and maybe even Wodonga, though it's mostly a proper freeway north of Wangaratta with a few at-grade junctions tbf) or the Federal/Hume between Sydney and Canberra, or even other roads such as Mt Ousley Rd between NSW's largest and fourth-largest cities, should be proper freeways like the Sydney–Newcastle, SE Fwys or Bruce Hwy south of Curra. I recognise that new freeways are becoming increasingly rare in today's society, and in no way or form am I suggesting we build more in cities, but if road connectivity between regional cities isn't great, then I guess we should stop wondering about why some states like NSW or SA are super centralised (obviously, there are other factors at play too, but connectivity is also a key factor).

I've paid a blind eye to cost here, though, so don't quote me on how much it'll cost to remove the at-grade junctions. Probably more than it did to upgrade the road in the first place, but as with missing links in public transit, the best time to build something properly is when it's constructed. 

That's the end of my rant; apologies to everyone who had to put through that. 

Csanad Csutoros

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Mar 15, 2023, 3:03:43 AM3/15/23
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These types of intersections also make a mockery of their roads' M classification. Especially ones like eg. the "M"420 through Cranbourne. Talk about deceptive (for anyone not familiar with that bit of road), and I'd  even go as far as saying their classifications are disingenuous. I don't agree with giving an M grading to otherwise freeway/motorway standard roads with even a small number of inconsequential and minor at-grade intersections but I can at least understand the reasoning behind classifying these roads. However, anywhere the deficiencies of a section of dual carriageway are such that the road has a reduced limit (eg. the now multiple 80 zones on the Hume), these should automatically be disqualified from having an M status until such time as they're properly and suitably upgraded. If the budget doesn't allow this, then fine just be up-front wrt to classification and service levels..

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#130km/hforthehume

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Mar 15, 2023, 3:18:55 AM3/15/23
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M780 is probably more of an egregious case, IMO. None of what is Western Port Highway resembles anything like a freeway or even an expressway like James Ruse Drive north of Vic Rd in Sydney. 

That also brings me to my next point: what about cases like the Hume Hwy between Albury and Goulburn? There are no sudden speed limit drops, but https://goo.gl/maps/ZRaKganibDCT7Fz59 is very unbecoming of an M-route, and how is this any different from the Sturt Hwy between Nuriootpa and the Northern Expy? Thankfully NSW at least recognises what a true motorway/freeway is, though the new Pacific Mwy between Iluka and Woodburn with LILOs and U-turn bays, but no right-turns, is somehow signed as M1 Pacific Mwy (correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this section of "motorway" only opened in the last decade?). At least that's better than some of NSW and Victoria's other dual carriageways which have right-turns.

Either way, NSW and Victoria both need to rethink their "M" classification and align it with places like SA or QLD, though Victoria has it worse in this regard.

Csanad Csutoros

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Mar 15, 2023, 3:57:48 AM3/15/23
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Yes, yes Western Port Hy also, forgot that one. Totally agree re Victoria being the worst offender overall out of all the states in this regard.

Notwithstanding, for the Hume in NSW the intersection with the Federal Highway (for Canberra bound traffic heading away from Yass), not to mention the Lachlan Valley Way are the worst ones. Without traffic and collision data, but from personal observation I'd say the latter might even be in a poorer state than those 80 zoned ones in Victoria, certainly from a safety point of view. This intersection would be sub-standard for an A road, never mind one that is well known as having M status and arguably the most well known, busiest through route in the nation.

(I do seem to recall discussion of a "study" and "planning" being considered for the LVW and Hume intersection <rolls eyes>. If they haven't started considering the possibility of perhaps one day maybe making this one grade separated then they definitely need to do so, and without delay.)


#130km/hforthehume

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Mar 15, 2023, 4:12:15 AM3/15/23
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Forgot the Federal Hwy U-turn. I don't know how that, as well as many other important junctions, have managed to stay like that for so long.

It seems to me that NSW seemed to be focusing on upgrading the Pacific Hwy before coming back to a road that's already 2 lanes in each way, which is typical of NSW, but I knew someone who drives down to Griffith every three or so months and one of the few nerve-wracking parts of the drive for them is the right turn onto Burley Griffin Way from the Hume (I haven't met them for a while, though).

I can't not bring up this, but to enlighten this discussion, there's Tasmania chilling out 400 kilometres from Victoria, the most egregious offender, having freeways signed as A-routes (Tasman Hwy and Southern Outlet), and even one B-route (Kingston Bypass).

Csanad Csutoros

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Mar 15, 2023, 4:39:37 AM3/15/23
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Lol, sounds like Tassie undervaluing road status is the inverse of what happens in Victoria.

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lachl...@gmail.com

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Mar 15, 2023, 4:45:27 AM3/15/23
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The Pacific Hwy/Pacific Mwy A1/M1 in NSW is not a good example and is highly inconsistent.  Most of the new upgrades are all signed M1 while the entire route between Beresfield and the Oxley Highway is exclusively signed A1.

 

This is a result of the gradual upgrading of the route over many years with standards constantly changing and improving, adding to that the implementation of the M/A/B route designations in NSW in the midst of the works.

 

There are sections that are fully grade separated freeway/motorway standard that are still signed Pacific Highway A1 (the older upgraded sections in mainly the southern half) while there are sections (more recent upgrades, mainly the northern half) that are Victoria style freeways (with at grade intersections and right turns)  that are signed Pacific Motorway M1.

 

Similar to the seemingly nonsensical speed limit changes on the southern sections that bounce from 110 to 100 to 90 to 80 and back (mainly due to badly designed intersections and crash histories), there are other sections with 110km/h speed limits with at grade intersections as well.  So I think to avoid bouncing around between M1-A1-M1-A1 it just makes sense to have it all one or the other.

 

From: aussie-...@googlegroups.com <aussie-...@googlegroups.com> On Behalf Of #130km/hforthehume
Sent: Wednesday, 15 March 2023 6:19 PM
To: Aussie Highways <aussie-...@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Hume Hwy, Longwood East bypass - when

 

M780 is probably more of an egregious case, IMO. None of what is Western Port Highway resembles anything like a freeway or even an expressway like James Ruse Drive north of Vic Rd in Sydney. 

 

That also brings me to my next point: what about cases like the Hume Hwy between Albury and Goulburn? There are no sudden speed limit drops, but https://goo.gl/maps/ZRaKganibDCT7Fz59 is very unbecoming of an M-route, and how is this any different from the Sturt Hwy between Nuriootpa and the Northern Expy? Thankfully NSW at least recognises what a true motorway/freeway is, though the new Pacific Mwy between Iluka and Woodburn with LILOs and U-turn bays, but no right-turns, is somehow signed as M1 Pacific Mwy (correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't this section of "motorway" only opened in the last decade?). At least that's better than some of NSW and Victoria's other dual carriageways which have right-turns.

 

Either way, NSW and Victoria both need to rethink their "M" classification and align it with places like SA or QLD, though Victoria has it worse in this regard.

 

On Wednesday, March 15, 2023 at 6:03:43 PM UTC+11 Csanad Csutoros wrote:

These types of intersections also make a mockery of their roads' M classification. Especially ones like eg. the "M"420 through Cranbourne. Talk about deceptive (for anyone not familiar with that bit of road), and I'd  even go as far as saying their classifications are disingenuous. I don't agree with giving an M grading to otherwise freeway/motorway standard roads with even a small number of inconsequential and minor at-grade intersections but I can at least understand the reasoning behind classifying these roads. However, anywhere the deficiencies of a section of dual carriageway are such that the road has a reduced limit (eg. the now multiple 80 zones on the Hume), these should automatically be disqualified from having an M status until such time as they're properly and suitably upgraded. If the budget doesn't allow this, then fine just be up-front wrt to classification and service levels..

 

On Wed, 15 Mar 2023, 12:48 am #130km/hforthehume, <thenorthernt...@gmail.com> wrote:

@Csanad You're not alone in thinking this. I'm one of the believers who find situations like Rockbank (on M8), Calder Park (on M79), or Kalkallo, all three of which are near Melbourne, as failures of long-term planning.

 

If my comments from a few other threads did not ultimately convey my POV, major intercity highways, such as the Hume between Kalkallo and Wangaratta (and maybe even Wodonga, though it's mostly a proper freeway north of Wangaratta with a few at-grade junctions tbf) or the Federal/Hume between Sydney and Canberra, or even other roads such as Mt Ousley Rd between NSW's largest and fourth-largest cities, should be proper freeways like the Sydney–Newcastle, SE Fwys or Bruce Hwy south of Curra. I recognise that new freeways are becoming increasingly rare in today's society, and in no way or form am I suggesting we build more in cities, but if road connectivity between regional cities isn't great, then I guess we should stop wondering about why some states like NSW or SA are super centralised (obviously, there are other factors at play too, but connectivity is also a key factor).

 

I've paid a blind eye to cost here, though, so don't quote me on how much it'll cost to remove the at-grade junctions. Probably more than it did to upgrade the road in the first place, but as with missing links in public transit, the best time to build something properly is when it's constructed. 

 

That's the end of my rant; apologies to everyone who had to put through that. 

On Saturday, March 11, 2023 at 2:49:01 PM UTC+11 Csanad Csutoros wrote:

Perhaps upgrading all intersections with appropriate interchanges (for current and medium future term traffic volumes) along designated "M" routes should be the next massive road construction project. A combined effort by governments at all levels and all persuasions working together for the good of the nation. <sigh> I imagine though that such a project would both cost way more than expected (I readily admit I haven't the faintest idea of co$t even in general terms) and without the positive publicity of a shiny, new major project (it'd be widely considered as maintenance rather than new construction), no politician would countenance such a program. So that leaves the slow attritional improvement process where tolerance of a few known black spots and/or bottlenecks, eventually reaches a nadir so an upgrade at that particular location is unavoidable.

Still, it's nice to dream.... 😀

 

On Sat, 11 Mar 2023, 1:46 pm Ben Renegar, <benre...@gmail.com> wrote:

Before the intersection at Avenel was constructed referred to by Csanad, as part of the bypass of Seymour to Tallarook, the Hume did go into Avenel via what is now Spencer Rd (doesn't connect with the Hume Fwy).

They should have kept this road as the northbound ramp out of Avenel - rather than the 80km/h intersection, but that's another topic.

 

 

Southbound - toward Avenel

 

 

Northbound

 

 

On Wednesday, March 8, 2023 at 7:47:25 PM UTC+11 Lachlan Sims wrote:

Further to this - I believe the old Hume Hwy route followed the now Seymour-Avenel Road, then Henry Street through Avenel and along what is now Spencer Rd.  The google street view imagery on Spencer Road at Avenel shows generally old style rural highway conditions.

 

There's a gap in the online historical aerial photography coverage between Avenel and Euroa, but the screenshot below from the 1945 imagery shows the main road through Avenel on that alignment referenced above.

 

If anyone is interested, the online historical imagery for Victoria can be found here http://mapshare.vic.gov.au/webmap/historical-photomaps/

 

 

Lachlan

 

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023 at 7:08 PM Csanad Csutoros <csanad....@gmail.com> wrote:

Longwood East / Old Longwood bypassed in 1984.

Avenel - Longwood Road (ie. top pink line) wasn't Hume Highway, although it is understandable why it would appear so. The current Melbourne bound carriageway between the Longwood East bypass and the substandard intersection (currently speed limited to 80 due to increased traffic) at Avenel is the original two way Hume carriageway, with the Wodonga bound side constructed as a duplication in late 70s / very early 80s.

Csanad

 

On Wed, 8 Mar 2023, 6:05 pm Ben Renegar, <benre...@gmail.com> wrote:

As far as I know the route for the Hume Highway between Euroa and Seymour went through Longwood, Locksley and Avenel until being bypassed in 1984. The old road is now Avenel-Longwood Rd.

On the current highway is itself another tiny bypass of the town Longwood East. The old highway sits largely abandoned - due to the incline looked to be a 4 lane carriageway, and its a lot of bitumen. This section just ends abruptly near Berrys Lane.

 

Does anybody know when Longwood East was bypassed and why? Does this mean duplication between Longwood and Avenel happened after/separately to the bypass of those towns?


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Sam L

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Mar 15, 2023, 4:59:49 AM3/15/23
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'M' doesn't mean Motorway or Freeway. 

From Ozroads, quoting the 1997 agreement between states: "M Routes - These are divided carriageway roads, generally forming part of the main links between capital cities, or from a capital city to a key regional centre. All Freeways and Motorways should be designated as M Roads."

At the time, M780 was designated as such as it was a mostly rural divided carriageway and the key link between the M1 and the port/industrial area at Hastings. Suburban development has caught up so now it should probably be an 'A' route as it is an urban arterial rather than a rural divided highway. 

M420 was similar, being divided highway connection from the M1 to Phillip Island. The section through Cranbourne was always an isolated non-compliance but there is no value whatseover in changing the prefix for a few kilometres, so it stayed M420. That will change with A21 replacing M420 anyway in the future. 

However, M23 and M31 in NSW are entirely consistent with the standard quoted above. 

The question of whether certain intersections are suitable for the current traffic speeds and volumes is irrelevant to whether the route should be coded as 'M' or 'A' for the purposes of navigation. 

You also mention Tasmania which doesn't have a single freeway as far as I know, and signing the very short sections of A3 and A6 which might be considered 'freeway standard' doesn't help navigation in any way. 

Note in the UK there are numerous sections of A roads that are 'motorway standard' but not signed as motorways, as motorways are a specific legal designation under their road rules. 
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Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Hume Hwy, Longwood East bypass - when

Sam L

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Mar 15, 2023, 5:02:12 AM3/15/23
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Agree with this - the route numbering and the prefix is to aid navigation. Jumping between the two doesn't provide any benefit to drivers, just makes it more confusing. 

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#130km/hforthehume

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Mar 15, 2023, 5:32:39 AM3/15/23
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Regarding Tasmania, you're right that Tas doesn't have any official "freeways", but those roads (plus a few others like parts of the Brooker, Midland, and Bass Hwys) do fulfil the criteria of a freeway. However, just because a road isn't signed a freeway (or any other terms such as motorway, expressway, autoroute, whatever), does not translate to not being one. Alberta, for example, is full of freeways within Calgary and Edmonton, yet there are no roads designated as freeways (nor is there any distinction in route numbering).

Sam L

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Mar 15, 2023, 7:33:53 AM3/15/23
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So as you noted, Canada does not differentiate its freeways from other roads with special route numbering. Neither does the US. The UK only does so on the basis of legally gazetted motorways, not road standards. Other European countries are similar. So why do you think it's necessary here?

Sent: Wednesday, 15 March 2023 5:32 PM

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Subject: Re: [Aussie Highways] Hume Hwy, Longwood East bypass - when

Csanad Csutoros

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Mar 15, 2023, 9:48:14 AM3/15/23
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Apologies, I honestly wasn’t aware that M doesn't officially mean freeway / motorway standard (while freeways / motorways in turn *are* always recommended an M designation). My bad, and thanks heaps for the clarification :) .
However, even though the primary purpose of the MABC system is to aid with navigation (and to that end fair enough), I still reckon the majority of motorists including the many who are far more erudite than I, but who also have little interest in the subject of route numbering and would not be bothered to access supporting information even if they were made aware of its availability, would automatically associate the M prefix, specifically, and only, with the highest standard of road, ie freeway/motorway (despite the well documented exceptions to this, their interest wouldn't typically extend as far as noticing these, hence they continue to be none the wiser). The authorities must surely have appreciated this and given there was no specific intent to have a category reserved exclusively for freeway standard roads the choice of M for their designated top tier seems odd, even misleading. A bit strange in this context to use a letter thst in many parts of the world is either associated with, or formally applied to motorway standard roads *only*. It surely would have made more sense to choose a different letter, or better still *start* with A for what are currently M routes, B for current A routes and so on, down the alphabet as far as needed.


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Paul R

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Mar 31, 2023, 4:56:37 AM3/31/23
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Agreed about the average punter 

Paul Rands
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Paul Rands

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May 1, 2023, 4:39:31 AM5/1/23
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