Digital TV
Richard Wray
in the UK?
Stephen Oakes
>
> When are you guys in Oz going to be getting Digital TV like we have here
> in the UK?
As soon as our politicians have settled on an appropriately ludicrous
set of standards.
--
Stephen Oakes Stephe...@dbce.csiro.au
Fish!
says...
> Richard Wray wrote:
> >
> > When are you guys in Oz going to be getting Digital TV like we have here
> > in the UK?
>
> As soon as our politicians have settled on an appropriately ludicrous
> set of standards.
>
>
we can, regardless of what is broadcast and costs.
I hope your UK DTV setup is better than your phone system otherwise you
guys are in deep shit.
The Grouch
Fish! wrote in message ...
The Grouch sticks his nose in: Actually (as far as I can recall) according
the some reports I read from the whichever australian government department
is handling the HDTV thing...the UK version of HDTV is one of the worst
quality wise.......it has to do with how the bandwith is broken up
(apparently you can have a number of lower quality channels or two good or
one extermely clear picture it depends on how you want to split up the one
stations signal).....there are also a number different types of HDTV
transmission systems some are compatible with channel spliting others others
are not I dont no which we choose
If anyone is really interested go to the aust gov website and get the
reports
The first HDTV telecast in oz is set for the Sydney game in
2000.......general telecasts start 2001 or so the ads of my old tv say...
The Grouch
Wollongong Quokka
>When are you guys in Oz going to be getting Digital TV like we have here
>in the UK?
Never, thankfully!
Digital TV "like you have there in the UK" is a completely shithouse
implementation in my not-humble-at-all opinion. For various reasons, I
consider the US implementation to be somewhat less shithouse, but their use
of ASTC is a predictable and disappointing mistake.
Before I go any further I want to clear up some misconceptions already aired
in this thread.
Stephen Oakes wrote in message <36772C87...@dbce.csiro.au>...
>As soon as our politicians have settled on an appropriately ludicrous
>set of standards.
I'm not really sure where that one came from Stephen... The Digital
Television legislation has been *passed* by the parliament. Having been
amended by the Senate, the amended Bills were approved by the House of
Representatives on July 15, 1998.
As for standards themselves, the FACTS group given the job of recommending
standards has done so, suggesting the use of DVB-T on June 18, with a few
more specific audio and video standards following on July 30.
No, as far as I am aware, these haven't been officially ratified by the
government, but as it's not an issue of controversy (all involved are in
agreement), there doesn't seem to be any doubt that it will be rubber
stamped at some juncture.
This decision is *not* listed on the ABA's timetable of things to be done by
all the parties involved http://www.aba.gov.au/what/digital/time.htm ...
which further suggests that this isn't an issue for one reason or another.
There is a fair bit of new material on the ABA site which I've yet to read
though, so I'll look into it.
In any case, the legislation stipulates that digital transmissions are to
commence on 1/1/2001 in metro areas, and at some point between 1/1/2001 and
1/1/2004 in regional areas.
Perhaps you'd care to elaborate on what you meant by your statement?
Fish! wrote in message ...
>Becuase hey, we're all going to run out and get HDTV aren't we as soon as
>we can, regardless of what is broadcast and costs.
Um... Fish... if you, or anyone, is planning to use digital television at
some stage, does it not follow that at some point it actually has to be
*introduced*?
If you're in that group of people which thinks Digital Television is a fad
which will come and go, I apologise, I'll let you go back to your strange
ideas. If it's done right, it won't go away.
If you're just in that group that likes to whinge that it will be too
expensive for anyone, then I equally apologise, I'll let you watch while it
sorts itself out.
No... I don't think most Australians will have Digital TV in 2001, as for
later, it all depends on how this thing is done. If done right I don't
think many people will still be buying PAL televisions in 2004, no. Sure,
Stereo receivers didn't really take off, but Colour sure as hell did.
Widescreen HDTV is quite a carrot to get a new television set... and if we
can get multi-channelling available to the ABC and SBS, then that combined
with snow and ghosting-free pictures should be quite a carrot to get a
Digital Set Top Unit at the very least.
I'm sure Closed Caption Subtitles will also see an increase in popularity
now that access will be easier *and* there will be quite high minimum
requirements of subtitling. It's a common misconception that these are only
for the totally deaf... but there are many potential uses. I sure wish my
parents had it... then I'd actually be able to enjoy the programs I watch
rather than having to constantly Shush them when they ask "What did he/she
just say?" every 5 minutes. Subtitles also offer an alternative when you
need to have the sound down to avoid disturbing someone... or when you are
in an environment which is too noisy to hear the TV.
>I hope your UK DTV setup is better than your phone system otherwise you
>guys are in deep shit.
The UK setup is shithouse... more in a moment.
The Grouch wrote in message <36775...@139.134.5.33>...
>The Grouch sticks his nose in: Actually (as far as I can recall) according
>the some reports I read from the whichever Australian government department
>is handling the HDTV thing...the UK version of HDTV is one of the worst
>quality wise
Um... the UK version is interesting in that it isn't HDTV really. Whereas
in the US and in Australia there will be minimum requirements of HDTV
material, the UK setup makes HDTV commercially unviable, or at the very
least... rare.
>it has to do with how the bandwith is broken up
>(apparently you can have a number of lower quality channels or two good or
>one extermely clear picture it depends on how you want to split up the one
>stations signal).....
Ah... see this is where the UK concept diverges quite significantly from the
US and Australian approaches... and indeed from the traditional approaches
to television anywhere.
In the UK, a new regime has been set up for Digital Transmission. There are
the companies who actually broadcast the "digital channels". These
companies can, in turn, on sell space in their capacity for use by the
actual program creators.
That is, the traditional idea of a television station being program source
*and* broadcaster has been split into two.
This is where HDTV becomes unviable. To do HDTV properly, you must use a
*full* digital channel. If one of these new broadcasters is going to fill
their entire product with one program source, they'd want to charge quite a
hefty premium! They are far more likely to pull in more money by selling
space separately for different program streams at what is known as SDTV
quality... or Standard Definition TV... or "similar to PAL" quality.
>there are also a number different types of HDTV
>transmission systems some are compatible with channel spliting others
others
>are not I dont no which we choose
It's quite simple really. With PAL, one 7MHz channel can carry one program
stream. With DTTB, one 7Mhz channel carries a digital data stream with a
certain data capacity.
Hmm... analogy time. With my sister overseas for most of the past couple of
years, I've become quite familiar with the concept of filling up a Postpak
with emergency supplies from Australia.
Now some people know what they want to send, and get packaging to suit...
with me, I get the Postpak, sit it in front of me, then work out how I'm
going to use the space.
In this way, my Postpak is a bit like a digital channel. (Sheesh... is this
an analogy or what???) There's a finite amount of space... and I can either
fill it with something pretty big and cool, or I can fill it with several
smaller items. With Digital Television, you can either have one big fat
HDTV channel, or you can have several "smaller" channels. Just how many
smaller channels depends on a number of factors. Mainly, this is just how
much resolution you want to send the pictures at as well as the actual
content of the pictures. If the pictures don't change much (say The 7:30
Report for example), then the digital format will be able to compress the
signal quite a bit, leaving more room for other things.
If the pictures change all the time (say, sport), then it won't compress as
well and will hog more space in the digital data stream.
>If anyone is really interested go to the aust gov website and get the
>reports
There are many relevant sites... refer to my Digital Television in Australia
site, and from there the Related Sites page.
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~quokka/dtvaus/
(Yeah sure, self promotion, but it's popular and is producing a continual
stream of feedback from people in Australia and the UK).
>The first HDTV telecast in oz is set for the Sydney game in
>2000.......general telecasts start 2001 or so the ads of my old tv say...
Unlikely. Official transmissions in the major cities start *on* 1/1/2001.
Official transmissions elsewhere in the country will start on dates between
1/1/2001 and 1/1/2004. These dates will be set in advance.
*Test* transmissions can start earlier, but I'm note sure if Olympics
coverage counts as a test transmission. With HDTV already being introduced
in the US, I'd say it's a sure bet that there will be HDTV broadcasts of the
Sydney games... it's just these broadcasts may not be in Australia.
Now... back to why the UK Digital TV implementation is shithouse (Nope... I
am *not* finished with them yet)...
Simple really... in Australia, Digital broadcasts must also be simulcasts...
of the PAL transmission. The Digital Channels are *not* new channels... a
concept many appear to have problems understanding.
In the UK, the Digital channels are in *addition* to the PAL channels.
In Australia, for the time being, Subscription television is banned from the
DTTB broadcasts.
In the UK, Subscription is the norm.
When I get feedback from UK correspondents, complaining about Digital TV,
they are *always* complaining about these aspects.
Once again, the Digital Television in Australia page can be found at:
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~quokka/dtvaus/
I will read the new ABA stuff and consider appropriate changes and additions
to the site when I have time.
--
Robs the Wollongong Quokka
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~quokka/
--
"Nice one Quokka!"
-- Tony Squires
AndrewR
<The_Grouch(REMOVE2SEND)@bigpond.com> wrote:
>
>Fish! wrote in message ...
>>In article <36772C87...@dbce.csiro.au>, Stephe...@dbce.csiro.au
>>says...
>>> Richard Wray wrote:
>>> >
>>> > When are you guys in Oz going to be getting Digital TV like we have
>here
>>> > in the UK?
>>>
>>> As soon as our politicians have settled on an appropriately ludicrous
>>> set of standards.
>>>
>>>
>>Becuase hey, we're all going to run out and get HDTV aren't we as soon as
>>we can, regardless of what is broadcast and costs.
>>
Is this the Same HDTV - that the Japanese had on display in the
Japanese Pavilion at Expo 88 - If so I couldn't see much difference -
but I'm sure there was.
>>I hope your UK DTV setup is better than your phone system otherwise you
>>guys are in deep shit.
>
>
>The Grouch sticks his nose in: Actually (as far as I can recall) according
>the some reports I read from the whichever australian government department
>is handling the HDTV thing...the UK version of HDTV is one of the worst
>quality wise.......it has to do with how the bandwith is broken up
>(apparently you can have a number of lower quality channels or two good or
>one extermely clear picture it depends on how you want to split up the one
>stations signal).....there are also a number different types of HDTV
>transmission systems some are compatible with channel spliting others others
>are not I dont no which we choose
>
>If anyone is really interested go to the aust gov website and get the
>reports
>
>The first HDTV telecast in oz is set for the Sydney game in
>2000.......general telecasts start 2001 or so the ads of my old tv say...
>
>
>The Grouch
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Stephen Oakes
> Stephen Oakes wrote in message <36772C87...@dbce.csiro.au>...
> >As soon as our politicians have settled on an appropriately ludicrous
> >set of standards.
>
> I'm not really sure where that one came from Stephen...
It was kind of a joke...but based upon reality. Wherever commercial
interests have an influence upon government decsisions, the government
rarely makes the right decisions as far as the technology is concerned.
You yourself, in your lengthy and interesting post, said a number of
times "If done right...".
> http://www.zipworld.com.au/~quokka/dtvaus/
This is good.
--
Stephen Oakes Stephe...@dbce.csiro.au
10024...@compuserve.com
>
> When are you guys in Oz going to be getting Digital TV like we have here
> in the UK?
To be pedantic we have it already, and have had it for
some 3 years.
The satellite Pay TV here is DVB digital with 36 channels
on 3 transponders.
The ABC (Government Network) and several commercial
DTH satellite stations are on digital satellite (DVB)
now.
There have been tests of Digital Terrestial TV to allow the
standards to be chosen and these tests are continuing
even though the COFDM transmission system with DVB
has been already decided. The current tests are to determine
the required carrier to noise ratios and hence transmitter
powrs required in differing terrain.
There should be substantial programming on air by the
end of 1999. The major difference here to the UK is that
we are "Required" to transmit HDTV and not multi-channel.
Fish!
Yawn. You're getting rather verbose in your young age quokka. I was
pointing out that Australia (as you have beaten us round the head with)
is taking it's time for a REASON, that reason hopefully is that waiting
tends to highlight problems with technology as seen in the US and the UK.
The guy from the UK seemed to be saying 'what is Aus taking so long for
in implmenting HDTV'. I'm sure that the programming and quality in the
UK is horrendous.
Either way HTDV is doomed in a society that defends TEAC tv's. Can you
honestly say in all your touting of it that you can AFFORD HTDV? It will
be expensive and only the rich will be able to see it/subscribe to it.
Oh and the ABA are becoming a pain in the arse. Don't believe me? ask
HITZ KIX and KISS-FM how long they've been waiting for a temp license
from them (6 years) only to be told this year that the ABA are
concentrating on HTDV.
Stephen Oakes
...although I disagree with your choice of coffee. I prefer Vic Bitter.
--
Stephen Oakes Stephe...@dbce.csiro.au
Roy Wilke
<Stephe...@dbce.csiro.au> wrote:
>Stephen Oakes wrote:
>> > http://www.zipworld.com.au/~quokka/dtvaus/
>> This is good.
>...although I disagree with your choice of coffee. I prefer Vic Bitter.
What? Boiling hot Victoria Bitter wth milk and sugar? Yuk! :)
-
Roy
zaphy
regurgitated the following:
Victoria Bitter is yuck - hot or otherwise. :)
Erin Baker
> Victoria Bitter is yuck - hot or otherwise. :)
VB is the lifeblood of this country. If it ran out, riots would quickly
spread throughout the country and we would have to resort to drinking XXXX. :
)
Deacon
> VB is the lifeblood of this country. If it ran out, riots would quickly
> spread throughout the country and we would have to resort to drinking XXXX. :)
No. No! NO!! Anything but that!!!
Then again, there's always Wild Turkey...
Deacon
(enough off-topic postings now...)
peeby
> > Victoria Bitter is yuck - hot or otherwise. :)
>
> VB is the lifeblood of this country. If it ran out, riots would quickly
> spread throughout the country and we would have to resort to drinking XXXX. :
> )
The best beer in the land is James Boags. I refuse to drink any CUB
product as it all tastes like the river yarra. Even the taste of Cascade
has changed since CUB took them over and that nice fresh Tassie taste is
no longer in the two-dog brand. Boags is best. Mind you, that Hahn
Premium's a nice drop! Matter of fact I've got one now...!
--
peeby
Wollongong Quokka
>> Stephen Oakes wrote in message <36772C87...@dbce.csiro.au>...
>> >As soon as our politicians have settled on an appropriately ludicrous
>> >set of standards.
>
>interests have an influence upon government decsisions, the government
>rarely makes the right decisions as far as the technology is concerned.
>
>You yourself, in your lengthy and interesting post, said a number of
>times "If done right...".
Ah... apologies Stephen... as you correctly point out, I wasn't commenting
about them making the right or wrong decision, merely the fact that I
sincerely don't think the introduction date is an issue. It's 1/1/2001.
The reason I'm so convinced is that according to the legislation, if this
date is missed then the broadcasters automatically surrender their new
digital spectrum. I therefore suspect they will make darn sure they are
ready to go, if at all possible.
I must say (while I'm here)... I don't personally agree that they "rarely"
make the right decisions... but I certainly think you have to watch them
very very carefully while they are making the decisions... and they do
"often" get it wrong.
>> http://www.zipworld.com.au/~quokka/dtvaus/
>
>This is good.
Thank you. Needs more work though. (And I've just been e-mailed another
URL to add to my collection of Digital TV stuff to look over during the new
year break).
Wollongong Quokka
>...although I disagree with your choice of coffee. I prefer Vic Bitter.
Sheesh!
Unfortunately the first beer someone handed me was a VB. I didn't drink
beer for another three years or so, when someone forced a Carlton Cold onto
me and I suddenly discovered that not all beer was undrinkable. :)
zaphy
regurgitated the following:
>> Victoria Bitter is yuck - hot or otherwise. :)
>
> VB is the lifeblood of this country. If it ran out, riots would quickly
>spread throughout the country and we would have to resort to drinking XXXX. :
>)
Ah bollocks - you'd just drink Tooheys then.
zaphy
<lvin...@hornet.net.au> regurgitated the following:
>Erin Baker wrote:
>>
>> > Victoria Bitter is yuck - hot or otherwise. :)
>>
>> VB is the lifeblood of this country. If it ran out, riots would > quickly
>> spread throughout the country and we would have to resort to drinking > XXXX. :)
>
>VB = Vitamin B. 98% water, so it's good for the complection too!
>XXXX Gold is a good drop, but it MUST be icy cold. It's mid strength,
>tho...
XXXX Original Draught is the solution - smoother than XXXX Bitter - and
its full-strength.
Lindsay Vincent
>
> > Victoria Bitter is yuck - hot or otherwise. :)
>
> VB is the lifeblood of this country. If it ran out, riots would > quickly
> spread throughout the country and we would have to resort to drinking > XXXX. :)
VB = Vitamin B. 98% water, so it's good for the complection too!
XXXX Gold is a good drop, but it MUST be icy cold. It's mid strength,
tho...
Lindsay
Thudd
> If anyone is really interested go to the aust gov website and get the
> reports
Yeah, if you can find the bloody things, and then they tell you nothing
when you do.
--
Brian Kelty
Th...@tassie.net.au.nospam <- remove nospam to reply
www.parsol.com.au
Everybody has to believe in something - I believe I'll have another
drink.
Thudd
>
> The best beer in the land is James Boags. I refuse to drink any CUB
> product as it all tastes like the river yarra. Even the taste of Cascade
> has changed since CUB took them over and that nice fresh Tassie taste is
> no longer in the two-dog brand. Boags is best. Mind you, that Hahn
> Premium's a nice drop! Matter of fact I've got one now...!
...and not only that, Boags is about the only independant brewer left in
Australia, apart from micro-breweries (does St.Ives in Hobart still brew
their own?). I think Coopers in S.A. is the other one. Reason enough
to support them. And the beer is good, too.
Ian Galbraith
wrote:
:peeby wrote:
:> The best beer in the land is James Boags. I refuse to drink any CUB
:> product as it all tastes like the river yarra. Even the taste of Cascade
:> has changed since CUB took them over and that nice fresh Tassie taste is
:> no longer in the two-dog brand. Boags is best. Mind you, that Hahn
:> Premium's a nice drop! Matter of fact I've got one now...!
I've tried it, but I don't like it very much.
:...and not only that, Boags is about the only independant brewer left in
:Australia, apart from micro-breweries (does St.Ives in Hobart still brew
:their own?). I think Coopers in S.A. is the other one. Reason enough
:to support them. And the beer is good, too.
Coopers aaaaaahh now there's a beer..... mothers milk :-). Obviously my
favorite beer.
Be Seeing You
--
Ian Galbraith
Email: igalb...@ozonline.com.au ICQ#: 7849631
"Masturbation is clean, cheap, convenient, and free of any possibility of
wrongdoing - and you don't have to go home in the cold. But it's lonely."
- Robert Heinlein
KenSiko
> > Victoria Bitter is yuck - hot or otherwise. :)
>
> VB is the lifeblood of this country. If it ran out, riots would quickly
> spread throughout the country and we would have to resort to drinking XXXX. :
> )
Dont tell the yanks that!! They think that Fosters is the beer we all drink. Silly
buggers believe what the fosters people tell them.
Besides, VB is the second, possibly third, best beer in WA. The best is made in my
backroom!
--
Ken *antisocial prick* Siko.
** for the Spammers:
gilo...@webtv.net
jos...@bigpond.com.au
om...@senalink.com.au
Wollongong Quokka
>The Grouch wrote:
>
>> If anyone is really interested go to the aust gov website and get the
>> reports
>
>Yeah, if you can find the bloody things, and then they tell you nothing
>when you do.
Not that hard to find... and if you use my Related Sites page it's very easy
indeed. :)
As for telling you nothing... what is it that you wanted them to tell you?
There's a fair bit out there.
If you're looking for reports of the technical tests, go to the DoCA
Communications Lab page (which is NOT part of the main department page).
Umm... can't remember exact urls... again, my Digital Television in
Australia/Related Sites page has the link.
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~quokka/dtvaus/
http://www.zipworld.com.au/~quokka/dtvaus/links.html
There are also some new discussion papers on the ABA website which I haven't
linked to yet, but I should have enough links there for you to find them
anyway.
John Whear
>peeby wrote:
>>
>> The best beer in the land is James Boags. I refuse to drink any CUB
>> product as it all tastes like the river yarra. Even the taste of Cascade
>> has changed since CUB took them over and that nice fresh Tassie taste is
>> no longer in the two-dog brand. Boags is best. Mind you, that Hahn
>> Premium's a nice drop! Matter of fact I've got one now...!
>
>Australia, apart from micro-breweries (does St.Ives in Hobart still brew
>their own?). I think Coopers in S.A. is the other one. Reason enough
>to support them. And the beer is good, too.
Isn't Matilda Bay (WA) an independant brewer as well? Red Backs are a damn
fine beer, and I've just tried the Pilsner as well, noy bad, but a little
hard to come by in Sydney.
Hunter
> The best beer in the land is James Boags. I refuse to drink any CUB
> product as it all tastes like the river yarra. Even the taste of Cascade
> has changed since CUB took them over and that nice fresh Tassie taste is
> no longer in the two-dog brand. Boags is best. Mind you, that Hahn
> Premium's a nice drop! Matter of fact I've got one now...!
Nothing goes past Hahn Dark Ice... Very nice drop and something you can drink at any
temperature...
zaphy
regurgitated the following:
*Dark* Ice? That a new brewskie?
peeby
> Coopers aaaaaahh now there's a beer..... mothers milk :-). Obviously my
> favorite beer.
>
the ale for a while on a regular basis but always got bloated before I
got merry. Prefer the Euro Pilsener/Lager style now. Favourite import is
a ridiculously cheap Polish beer called Hansa but have ridden the odd
Elephant beer too!. Too often too hard to get though. Prefer Boags Hahn.
Ooops that's my initials
--
peeby
"""
Q Q
!
~
peeby
> Isn't Matilda Bay (WA) an independant brewer as well? Red Backs are a damn
> fine beer, and I've just tried the Pilsner as well, noy bad, but a little
> hard to come by in Sydney.
>
Oooh.. that sounds different! A Redback Pilsner. Anyone seen any in
Melb?
--
peeby
Hunter
> >Nothing goes past Hahn Dark Ice... Very nice drop and something you can drink at any
> >temperature...
>
> *Dark* Ice? That a new brewskie?
Not that new, I've been drinking it for around 2 years. Very nice... The only problem is
the lighter coloured beers all taste like water in comparison now... (Although I can
still drink Toohey's Red and enjoy it, just much prefer the Dark Ice...)
KenSiko
<367DF374...@vianet.net.au>...
My 3 day old brew is dark!! 8]
And yeasty... and warm... 8[~~
--
Ken *Antisocial Prick* Siko
Power Mad
having Australia's most repulsive beers, BUT it is also home of the best
beer in Australia, ie *Cooper's Sparkling Ale*.
Now how this relates to Aus.TV I'm not sure, except I have a Cooper's
screen saver, which is on my monitor, which is a bit like a small TV...
Gully Foyle
wrote:
>peeby wrote:
>>
>> The best beer in the land is James Boags. I refuse to drink any CUB
>> product as it all tastes like the river yarra. Even the taste of Cascade
>> has changed since CUB took them over and that nice fresh Tassie taste is
>> no longer in the two-dog brand. Boags is best. Mind you, that Hahn
>> Premium's a nice drop! Matter of fact I've got one now...!
>
>...and not only that, Boags is about the only independant brewer left in
>Australia, apart from micro-breweries (does St.Ives in Hobart still brew
>their own?). I think Coopers in S.A. is the other one. Reason enough
>to support them. And the beer is good, too.
A thousand times better than that mass produced pish. The only good
thing about Vic Bitter is that ads.
XXIII
_________________________________________________________________
To email me remove the Z after the @ in my email address.
_________________________________________________________________
IDIOT, n.
A member of a large and powerful tribe whose
influence in human affairs has always been dominant
and controlling. The Idiot's activity is not confined to
any special field of thought or action, but "pervades
and regulates the whole." He has the last word in
everything; his decision is unappealable. He sets the
fashions and opinion of taste, dictates the limitations
of speech and circumscribes conduct with a
dead-line.
Ambrose Bierce
_________________________________________________________________
zaphy
regurgitated the following:
>What amuses me is that South Australia has a (deseved) reputation for
>having Australia's most repulsive beers, BUT it is also home of the best
>beer in Australia, ie *Cooper's Sparkling Ale*.
>
>Now how this relates to Aus.TV I'm not sure, except I have a Cooper's
>screen saver, which is on my monitor, which is a bit like a small TV...
And that you'd probably drink beer sometimes while watching TV.