Nigger Brown
Chris Parslow
Canberra to defy UN on 'nigger' sign
By Ashleigh Wilson
April 24, 2003
THE federal Government is likely to thumb its nose at a UN decision
that the word "Nigger" on a grandstand in Toowoomba is offensive and
should be taken down.
At the centre of the dispute is a sign at Toowoomba sports ground in
Queensland commemorating a white footballer: "The E.S. 'Nigger' Brown
Stand."
Aboriginal activist Stephen Hagan last year appealed to the UN's
Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination after having his
objection to the sign dismissed by a Federal Court judge, the full
bench of the Federal Court and the High Court.
Mr Hagan yesterday claimed a "huge victory" in his four-year campaign.
"This is a historic day," Mr Hagan said. "All the courts in Australia
said 'nigger' wasn't offensive, and now they've been told by more
learned judges that it is."
Edward Stanley "Nigger" Brown was a blond-haired Australian rugby
league player who toured Great Britain in the early 1920s.
The UN committee said the use of his nickname was "offensive and
insulting" and recommended it be removed.
But a spokesperson for Attorney-General Daryl Williams said while the
Government would look at the decision, the case had been "thoroughly
considered by our Australian courts". "The Government is confident
that Australia's domestic processes, which found no racial
discrimination in this case, are second to none in the world," the
spokesperson said.
"The Government notes that the committee is not a court and its views
are not binding. In particular, it does not adopt the rigorous
judicial standards employed by our own domestic courts.
"The Government's serious concerns regarding the quality and standards
applied by UN com plaint bodies are a matter of public record. In the
absence of real reform of the UN treaty body system, those concerns
remain."
Mr Hagan said displaying the word was racist and offensive, and
reflected poorly on the city of Toowoomba, west of Brisbane.
"Toowoomba is probably known as the racism capital of Queensland, if
not Australia," Mr Hagan said.
The chairman of the Toowoomba Sports Ground Trust, John McDonald, said
he would not move the sign unless he was compelled to.
...
I posted this on behalf of of Ossie. I believe he's on the move at
present, otherwise he never would have missed this.
This brouhaha has been going on for some time now, and it aint over
yet.
My view on it is quite straight forward. And it's this: lotsa things
offend lotsa people.
The question is: when should something that offends somebody be
something that should be suppressed.
In this case, IMO the answer is this.: 'Nigger" is a word that
genuinely offends a whole buncha people.
Not annoys; genuinely offends.
That being so, what's so hard about omitting it from the sign over the
stand?
The fact it don't offend whitefellas such as meself is neither here
nor there.
A pork pie don't offend me either, but I wouldn't offer one to a
Muslim or a Jew.
The fact that "Nigger" was just the (white)fella's nickname is
trotted out as a supposedly killing rebuttal to the fact that some
find the name offensive.
My view is SFW; all that says is; those who find it offensive are in
the minority.
But consider this.
Do you reckon the stand would be known as simply the "E.S. Brown
Stand" if the fella's nickname was "Cuntface"?
CP
Pete
> THE federal Government is likely to thumb its nose at a UN decision
> that the word "Nigger" on a grandstand in Toowoomba is offensive and
> should be taken down.
>
And rightly so, I don't hear the UN bitching about "Coon" cheese.
-- Pete --
>> Souths - running like a well oiled machine..... just no fuel. <<
Chris Parslow
"Pete" <pe...@footycentral.com.spamsux> wrote in message
news:WH8qa.10843$8K2.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Chris Parslow wrote:
> > THE federal Government is likely to thumb its nose at a UN
decision
> > that the word "Nigger" on a grandstand in Toowoomba is offensive
and
> > should be taken down.
> >
>
> And rightly so, I don't hear the UN bitching about "Coon" cheese.
That would be because Coon is a recognised surname and, in fact, the
surname of the fella who first marketed that particular cheese.
If E.S. Brown was born E.S. Nigger, I doubt anyone would be bitching
either...
CP
Marcus
news:b8b4ld$8fbbg$1...@ID-102354.news.dfncis.de...
> "The Australian": 24/4/03
>
> THE federal Government is likely to thumb its nose at a UN decision
> that the word "Nigger" on a grandstand in Toowoomba is offensive and
> should be taken down.
What decision? Recommendation!
> Aboriginal activist Stephen Hagan
...who is an alcoholic, wife-beating rapist...
> last year appealed to the UN's
> Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination after having his
> objection to the sign dismissed by a Federal Court judge, the full
> bench of the Federal Court and the High Court.
>
> Mr Hagan yesterday applied for a job, and is planning to sue for racial
discrimination after being un-
> successful in his application. "They don't want any black rocket
scientists," he spat.
>
> "This is a historic day," Mr Hagan said. "All the courts in Australia
> said 'nigger' wasn't offensive, and now they've been told by more
> learned judges that it is."
More learned judges than the ones which will hear his rape case this year?
> The UN committee said the use of his nickname was "offensive and
> insulting" and recommended it be removed.
They should threaten to invade. Let's see what the French say. Why the
hell are France in the permanent security council anyway?
> But a spokesperson for Attorney-General Daryl Williams said while the
> Government would look at the decision, the case had been "thoroughly
> considered by our Australian courts".
Yes, all of them!
> "The Government notes that the committee is not a court and its views
> are not binding. In particular, it does not adopt the rigorous
> judicial standards employed by our own domestic courts.
Particularly when there's a chance to sink the slipper into Australia.
> Mr Hagan said displaying the word was racist and offensive, and
> reflected poorly on the city of Toowoomba, west of Brisbane.
He'd do better to remove his indigenous cousins and their bongs and empties
from Queen's Park during summer evenings, if he was concerned about the
image of Toowoomba.
> "Toowoomba is probably known as the racism capital of Queensland, if
> not Australia," Mr Hagan said.
Actually, it's known as the Garden City. Wonder if he knows where it is?
> The chairman of the Toowoomba Sports Ground Trust, John McDonald, said
> he would not move the sign unless he was compelled to.
> The question is: when should something that offends somebody be
> something that should be suppressed.
Offensive does not equal illegal. There's no provision in any statute or
common law for any form of remedy on the basis of being offended. The sign
is on private land and it doesn't incite racism.
> The fact that "Nigger" was just the (white)fella's nickname is
> trotted out as a supposedly killing rebuttal to the fact that some
> find the name offensive.
Well, the sign has been there a loooong time. This whole shebang is more
about Hagan getting his face on TV for something other than indecent
dealings with minors.
> Do you reckon the stand would be known as simply the "E.S. Brown
> Stand" if the fella's nickname was "Cuntface"?
"Nugget" shoe polish was originally "Nigger" brand. "Fags" are now "Fads"
and even they don't exist any more. Times change, sure. But until there's
more than one whinging loudmouth trying very hard to get his head in the
papers, we really don't have an issue IMO. In Brown's time he was never
referred to as anything other than "Nigger" by anyone but his mother. He's
been gone a while so the impact of the word has perhaps returned. The whole
thing in Toowoomba itself is a non-issue. It simply doesn't get talked
about; nobody gives a shit.
Slippery Sam
>> Mr Hagan said displaying the word was racist and offensive, and
>> reflected poorly on the city of Toowoomba, west of Brisbane.
Is it such a crime that Nigger Brown has made the word non-offensive in
Toowoomba? Seems to me declaring the word offensive only empowers it.
Sam
muzza
common law for any form of remedy on the basis of being offended. The sign
is on private land and it doesn't incite racism.
-----
I find the words...private land....amusing in this post.
When has those words bothered people before when claiming land.
--------------------------------------
Ya can,t bend over backwards any further,when you are flat on your back and
we have been flat on our backs for years.
Hard to beat....attitude and nit picking.
Slippery Sam
> Offensive does not equal illegal. There's no provision in any
> statute or common law for any form of remedy on the basis of being
> offended. The sign is on private land and it doesn't incite racism.
Nigger Brown obviously wasn't offended by the name.
Sam
Nippo
"Marcus" <nyuk...@stooge.com> wrote in message
news:%Feqa.22415$1s1.3...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> "Chris Parslow" <chr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:b8b4ld$8fbbg$1...@ID-102354.news.dfncis.de...
> > "The Australian": 24/4/03
> >
> > THE federal Government is likely to thumb its nose at a UN decision
> > that the word "Nigger" on a grandstand in Toowoomba is offensive and
> > should be taken down.
>
> What decision? Recommendation!
>
> > Aboriginal activist Stephen Hagan
>
> ...who is an alcoholic, wife-beating rapist...
Sounds like he'd make it as ATSIC chairman then.
Josh Button
"Slippery Sam" <so...@nospam2me.com> wrote in message
news:3ea9...@news.comindico.com.au...
Because he was a whitie, Was I offended when kids at school called me sambo
and nigger? Yes.
Jarkko Altonen
>"The Australian": 24/4/03
>Canberra to defy UN on 'nigger' sign
I think they should drop the word.
PC
how long ? And to how many aboriginals or other races of people has the term
been offensive ? It is not as if Mr Hagan is the first to be offended - and
if no-one else has stood up and said they find it offensive, well then why
change it for one dropkick ? Hagan finds it offensive but not one of his
relatives or not one person from the day the sign was put up to the day
Hagan took his stance have come forward and wanted the name dropped. Your
reference to if his nickname was ****face - is pie in the sky sort of stuff.
The facts are - Browns nickname wasn't ****face - it was Nigger ; Hagan is
the first to complain ; how come he stopped short of that ? Surely - Gin
Gin, Coon, Blackbutt etc should be changed too - or Hagan should be arguing
those names too.
He isn't and to me he is a deadshit - the UN doesn't make the laws of this
country. If it did we would still be deciding the constitution.
"Chris Parslow" <chr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:b8b4ld$8fbbg$1...@ID-102354.news.dfncis.de...
Pete
So do I, All of the nations are certainly not UNITED.
muzza
"Josh Button" <yo...@panthers.net.au> wrote in message
news:3ea9...@news.comindico.com.au...
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
and pray tell...did you say anything then when it would have meant something
to you and just you........or did you wait eons,untill it was flavour of the
month.
Josh Button
"muzza" <muz...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:3eaa0683$0$1031$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
I said something at the time.
I haven't been in Toowoomba, but from what I could make out, it has been a
big deal for quite a while.
muzza
"PC" <dri...@thepub.com> wrote in message
news:Glmqa.374$lD4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Chris I disagree with your post. The term "nigger" has been offensive for
how long ?
------
nip...geek....fagart....poofter....*gay*(don,t ya just love to hate that
fake word)camp....chink....dyke......etc..etc...etc
and the list goes on.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
PC
"Josh Button" <yo...@panthers.net.au> wrote in message
Chris Parslow
> Offensive does not equal illegal. There's no provision in any
statute or
> common law for any form of remedy on the basis of being offended.
The fact Hagan thought the term offensive didn't convince the courts
it was illegal. But to say "There's no provision in any statute or
common law for any form of remedy on the basis of being offended" is
just plain bollocks.
CRIMES ACT 1914 SECT 85ZE
85ZE Improper use of carriage services
(1)
A person must not intentionally use a carriage service supplied by a
carrier:
(a)
with the result that another person is menaced or harassed; or
(b)
in such a way as would be regarded by reasonable persons as being, in
all the circumstances, offensive.
Penalty: Imprisonment for 1 year.
I chose this one because it was an amendment to apply to 'on-line
services'. There's lots of equivalent provsions in other legislation.
Whole generations of cops scored easy arrests by attending plays,
movies, art exhibitions etc and then telling the Magistrate just how
offensive they found whatever it was...
>>The sign is on private land
Pfffft. My house is on private land. If I put up a Biiiig sign
saying <insert politician of choice> was a paedophile, do ya reckon
I'd have a long before the boyzinblue arrived?
>>and it doesn't incite racism.
No, but how is that an essential component of an argument for the sign
to be amended?
However, keeping 'nigger' in circulation as a word with no attached
taboo certainly don't help combat racism.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------
--------
> -----
> I find the words...private land....amusing in this post.
> When has those words bothered people before when claiming land.
And which 'people' would these people be?
CP
Chris Parslow
offensive for
> how long ?
Offensive to who? Some people still use the word in all seriousness,
as a term intended to offend.
From the PTV of the folk on the receiving end, it's probable been
offensive for as long as they realised it was more than just a
dispassionate description of dark-skinned people.
>>And to how many aboriginals or other races of people has the term
been offensive ? It is not as if Mr Hagan is the first to be
offended - and if no-one else has stood up and said they find it
offensive, well then why change it for one dropkick ?
So you are saying here ....what? That "nigger" generally has been
offensive to "aboriginals or other races of people", or just the sign?
And if, as you say, "It is not as if Mr Hagan is the first to be
offended", then this is reason to keep the sign, or keep using
"nigger" in general conversation?
Whichever you mean, neither you nor I know that someone *hasn't*
"stood up and said they find it offensive". The point was Hagan took
the matter to court, not simply told somebody...
> Hagan took his stance have come forward and wanted the name dropped.
Your
> reference to if his nickname was ****face - is pie in the sky sort
of stuff.
> The facts are - Browns nickname wasn't ****face - it was Nigger ;
Correct, and if his nickname among his mates was "Cuntface", the
papers wouldn't have used it then or now, nor would they have used it
on the sign. Because it's considered offensive, then & now.
Otherwise, why would you type "nigger" in full, but then type
"****face"
CP
PC
"Chris Parslow" <chr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:b8dacj$8scfv$1...@ID-102354.news.dfncis.de...
Because courtesy would suggest not typing C U N T ! Nigger is not a swear
word - to the majority of people anyway.
Shit if this is our biggest concern in Australia 2003 then things like
rapes, murders, pedophilia are really unimportant.
Sharknimflt
To the majority of rednecks.
>
> Shit if this is our biggest concern in Australia 2003 then things like
> rapes, murders, pedophilia are really unimportant.
Hello PC, meet logic. I assume you've never met.
P.S. Is PC CP's bizarro world counterpart?
--
Sharknimflt
*The americans brought the Iraqi war live into our lounge room --
and we didn't even have a TV. *
>
>
>
Colin Lord
> "The Australian": 24/4/03
>
> My view on it is quite straight forward. And it's this: lotsa things
> offend lotsa people.
>
> The question is: when should something that offends somebody be
> something that should be suppressed.
>
> In this case, IMO the answer is this.: 'Nigger" is a word that
> genuinely offends a whole buncha people.
>
> Not annoys; genuinely offends.
"Coon" genuinely offends too. Do you support the case to rename Coon Cheese
despite it being named after a Mr Coon the maker (or Dr Coon?). Yes, someone
did actually take them to court over "Coon" if I'm not mistaken (and lost).
> That being so, what's so hard about omitting it from the sign over the
> stand?
Nothing, its the easy thing to do.
> The fact it don't offend whitefellas such as meself is neither here
> nor there.
>
> The fact that "Nigger" was just the (white)fella's nickname is
> trotted out as a supposedly killing rebuttal to the fact that some
> find the name offensive.
[Spanish, and Portuguese negro, black, Black person from Latin niger, nigr-,
black. See nekw-t- in Indo-European Roots. Fench: negre]
It depends entirely on the origin of the word Nigger in ES "Nigger" Brown. I
know is based on Nigger Brown boot polish. But where did the boot polish get
its name. If its named "Nigger" Brown because it resemembled the colour of
the a dark skinned person then I'd say its time to replace the "Nigger"
part. If however its a genuine nonracist term for a darkish brown colour
then it should stay (like Coon can stay).
The question is was the racist term taken from the colour (ie blacks could
mean aboriginals, but we don't ban the word black), or was the colour taken
from the racist term (ie this boot polish is the colour of a nigger)? If
anyone knows the origins post them up.
> My view is SFW; all that says is; those who find it offensive are in
> the minority.
>
> But consider this.
>
> Do you reckon the stand would be known as simply the "E.S. Brown
> Stand" if the fella's nickname was "Cuntface"?
Of course not, there is no way a swear word would be allowed. Try something
anti-white such as honky or redneck (or someother antiwhite word)? Would ES
"Honky" Brown be OK, ES "Redneck" Brown?
Colin Lord
>
> "PC" <dri...@thepub.com> wrote in message
> news:Glmqa.374$lD4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > Chris I disagree with your post. The term "nigger" has been
> offensive for
> > how long ?
> Your
> > reference to if his nickname was ****face - is pie in the sky sort
> of stuff.
> > The facts are - Browns nickname wasn't ****face - it was Nigger ;
>
> Correct, and if his nickname among his mates was "Cuntface", the
> papers wouldn't have used it then or now, nor would they have used it
> on the sign. Because it's considered offensive, then & now.
>
> Otherwise, why would you type "nigger" in full, but then type
> "****face"
A lot of people consider "boy" a racist term "Y'all come over here and clean
my shoes, yeh hear now boy". Ali near clocked Bert Newton at the Logies for
saying something like "I really like the boy". If it was ES "Boy" Brown
would that be a problem?
Chris Cox
news:3ea9ed7f.18745919@news-server...
I agree. ES is rarely said anyway, so it should be dropped from the name.
Chris Cox
>
> "PC" <dri...@thepub.com> wrote in message
> news:Glmqa.374$lD4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > Chris I disagree with your post. The term "nigger" has been
> offensive for
> > how long ?
>
> Offensive to who? Some people still use the word in all seriousness,
> as a term intended to offend.
Ah, but now you get into the awkward world of context. In the context of
the stand it's not _meant_ in a way to cause offence. Does that excuse it?
Obviously the courts think no and the UN thinks yes. Stephen Hagan, despite
a lot of the assaults (valid or otherwise) on his character in this thread,
is entitled to that opinion also.
Does it mean Athletic Oval should change the sign? All the court rulings
and UN recommendations has shown is that it's still up to them.
> Correct, and if his nickname among his mates was "Cuntface", the
> papers wouldn't have used it then or now, nor would they have used it
> on the sign. Because it's considered offensive, then & now.
>
> Otherwise, why would you type "nigger" in full, but then type
> "****face"
This is the crux of the argument. We're talking about a name that wasn't
offensive to the majority of the time (and by majority, I mean only white
people because the opinions of aborigines was completely unconsidered in
those days, and in a lot of ways not much has changed). Is that same
majority offended by it now? You'd have to ask the people who live in
Toowoomba, visit and play at the venue. I did broach the subject with a few
locals last year I was there, and they, not surprisingly, said the sign
should stay. One of them was an aborigine himself. Four people ain't a
sizeable representation of course, just relaying my own experiences there.
I think some of Stephen Hagan's comments (eg Toowoomba is the racist capital
of Queensland) only hurt his cause. I've been to Blacksoil, Barcaldine (the
birthplace of the Labor party in Australia) and Longreach, and even then as
a kid of 12 years I was shocked by the way some of the locals spoke of the
"nigger element". I've never heard anything of the sort in Toowoomba, and
I've visited there a lot more frequently than the country.
Hagan's penchant for dramatisation, sensationalism and publicity simply lift
the barriers he's trying to overcome even higher. It doesn't matter what
about a person/people you're trying to change, if you do it while attacking
them you'll fail (please note that fact Mr Dubya).
My personal view? Save us all a lot of trouble and change the sign. And
while you're at it, do something about Coonabarabran. I get filled with
embarrassment whenever I see it on a map.
Cheers,
Chris
Chris Cox
news:u0sqa.31370$mZ4.3...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>
> > > Otherwise, why would you type "nigger" in full, but then type
> > > "****face"
> > >
> > > CP
> >
> > Because courtesy would suggest not typing C U N T ! Nigger is not a
swear
> > word - to the majority of people anyway.
>
> To the majority of rednecks.
Agreed. It is an offensive term - and if I used that term in the presence
of aborigines, african americans, west indians or africans I'd expect - and
deserve - a thorough caning. What isn't helping is the growing trend,
particularly in some R&B and hip hop music, of the artists referring to
their friends as "niggas". If anything that just blurs the line even
further. Context and intent. It's the whole problem with classifying terms
as insults or not.
Chris Cox
news:WIuqa.1470$lD4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > Do you reckon the stand would be known as simply the "E.S. Brown
> > Stand" if the fella's nickname was "Cuntface"?
>
> Of course not, there is no way a swear word would be allowed. Try
something
> anti-white such as honky or redneck (or someother antiwhite word)? Would
ES
> "Honky" Brown be OK, ES "Redneck" Brown?
Another example of context. What about if a venue in Melbourne was named
the ES "Wog" Brown stand about 20 years ago. The Greek community would have
been greatly offended no doubt. However, that term, due to their own
mocking and acceptance of it, has largely been ignored as being offensive.
However, if you walked up to someone and called them a "dirty stinking wog"
you would still be in trouble for racial vilification.
How can you objectively judge between an insult and a term of endearment?
Chris
Slippery Sam
>
> And while you're at it, do something about Coonabarabran. I get
> filled with embarrassment whenever I see it on a map.
I find that pretty rich coming from a bloke with your surname.
Sam
Slippery Sam
>> Nigger Brown obviously wasn't offended by the name.
>>
>> Sam
>
> Because he was a whitie, Was I offended when kids at school called me
> sambo and nigger? Yes.
I think if it's okay for a darkie to call another darkie "nigger" - which it
appears it is - then it follows that it must be okay for a whitie to call
another whitie "nigger." Or something.
But seriously, if the High Court of Australia is telling you not it's not
meant to be offensive why should you insist on being offended? Surely, when
the opportunity arises to disempower such a word, you should take it. By
ruling the term "nigger" racially offensive, the UN gave credibility to the
notion of a perceived inferiority based on colour.
Sam
Sharknimflt
"Chris Cox" <cj...@dontspamme.optushome.com.oz> wrote in message
news:3eaa9d70$0$26869$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Agreed. It's okay for one white guy to call another honky. If a negro called
you one, it's different. Context and intent. Also the difference between
manslaughter & murder?
Chris Cox
If my name offends you, take it to the UN and if they want me to change it
I'll gladly fill out the necessary papers.
Slippery Sam
I can see them getting pretty excited over "Nigger Cox".
Sam
Danish Moo Cow
> "Chris Parslow" <chr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:b8b4ld$8fbbg$1...@ID-102354.news.dfncis.de...
>> "The Australian": 24/4/03
>>
>> My view on it is quite straight forward. And it's this: lotsa
>> things offend lotsa people.
>>
>> The question is: when should something that offends somebody be
>> something that should be suppressed.
>>
>> In this case, IMO the answer is this.: 'Nigger" is a word that
>> genuinely offends a whole buncha people.
>>
>> Not annoys; genuinely offends.
>> the stand?
>> nor there.
>>
>> The fact that "Nigger" was just the (white)fella's nickname is
>> trotted out as a supposedly killing rebuttal to the fact that some
>> find the name offensive.
>> the minority.
>>
>> But consider this.
>>
>> Do you reckon the stand would be known as simply the "E.S. Brown
>> Stand" if the fella's nickname was "Cuntface"?
If the grandstand's name has to be changed, do we have to change the name of
this thread?
DMC.
trigrhappi
Slippery Sam
Yairs.
Sam Bo Xao
Colin Lord
"Chris Cox" <cj...@dontspamme.optushome.com.oz> wrote in message
And if you called a mexicam a "dirty stinking mexican"......
And if you called a mexicam a "dirty stinking aboriginal"......
And if you called a mexicam a "dirty stinking negro"......
And if you called a mexicam a "dirty stinking caucasian"......
And if you called a mexicam a "dirty stinking whitey"......
And if you called a mexicam a "dirty stinking asian"......
Negro, aboriginal, mexican, whitey, asian, caucasion are acceptable words.
I'd suggest its the "Dirty Stinking" part that is causing the problem both
directly (dirty-stinking) and racistly to nationality/ethinic group.
> How can you objectively judge between an insult and a term of endearment?
You can't. But we live in a society that changes a word when ever we don't
like it. Crippled became mobility disadvantaged which became mobility
challenged. You can't refer to people as spastic any more, despite there
actually being a spastic society, because of attached stigma.
Colin Lord
> Josh Button <yo...@panthers.net.au> wrote:
> >> Nigger Brown obviously wasn't offended by the name.
> >>
> >> Sam
> >
> > Because he was a whitie, Was I offended when kids at school called me
> > sambo and nigger? Yes.
>
> I think if it's okay for a darkie to call another darkie "nigger" - which
it
> appears it is - then it follows that it must be okay for a whitie to call
> another whitie "nigger." Or something.
>
> But seriously, if the High Court of Australia is telling you not it's not
> meant to be offensive why should you insist on being offended?
And if the High Court tells you the moon is made of blue cheese do you
agree. Just because the High Court does agree with you doesn't mean you have
to change your view. Its a free society after all.
>Surely, when
> the opportunity arises to disempower such a word, you should take it. By
> ruling the term "nigger" racially offensive, the UN gave credibility to
the
> notion of a perceived inferiority based on colour.
Thats a little simplistic.
Oswald P Wrong
"Chris Parslow" <chr...@bigpond.com>, Fri, 25 Apr 2003 20:33:32
+1000,
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>"The Australian": 24/4/03
>
>Canberra to defy UN on 'nigger' sign
>
>By Ashleigh Wilson
>
>April 24, 2003
>
>THE federal Government is likely to thumb its nose at a UN decision
>that the word "Nigger" on a grandstand in Toowoomba is offensive and
>should be taken down.
>
>At the centre of the dispute is a sign at Toowoomba sports ground in
>Queensland commemorating a white footballer: "The E.S. 'Nigger' Brown
>Stand."
>
>Aboriginal activist Stephen Hagan last year appealed to the UN's
>Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination after having his
>objection to the sign dismissed by a Federal Court judge, the full
>bench of the Federal Court and the High Court.
>
>Mr Hagan yesterday claimed a "huge victory" in his four-year campaign.
>
>"This is a historic day," Mr Hagan said. "All the courts in Australia
>said 'nigger' wasn't offensive, and now they've been told by more
>learned judges that it is."
>
>Edward Stanley "Nigger" Brown was a blond-haired Australian rugby
>league player who toured Great Britain in the early 1920s.
>
>The UN committee said the use of his nickname was "offensive and
>insulting" and recommended it be removed.
>
>But a spokesperson for Attorney-General Daryl Williams said while the
>Government would look at the decision, the case had been "thoroughly
>considered by our Australian courts". "The Government is confident
>that Australia's domestic processes, which found no racial
>discrimination in this case, are second to none in the world," the
>spokesperson said.
>
>"The Government notes that the committee is not a court and its views
>are not binding. In particular, it does not adopt the rigorous
>judicial standards employed by our own domestic courts.
>
>"The Government's serious concerns regarding the quality and standards
>applied by UN com plaint bodies are a matter of public record. In the
>absence of real reform of the UN treaty body system, those concerns
>remain."
>
>Mr Hagan said displaying the word was racist and offensive, and
>reflected poorly on the city of Toowoomba, west of Brisbane.
>"Toowoomba is probably known as the racism capital of Queensland, if
>not Australia," Mr Hagan said.
>
>The chairman of the Toowoomba Sports Ground Trust, John McDonald, said
>he would not move the sign unless he was compelled to.
>...
>
>I posted this on behalf of of Ossie. I believe he's on the move at
>present, otherwise he never would have missed this.
>
Thanks mate. It's been a hectic few days.
>This brouhaha has been going on for some time now, and it aint over
>yet.
>
>My view on it is quite straight forward. And it's this: lotsa things
>offend lotsa people.
>
>The question is: when should something that offends somebody be
>something that should be suppressed.
>
>In this case, IMO the answer is this.: 'Nigger" is a word that
>genuinely offends a whole buncha people.
>
>Not annoys; genuinely offends.
>
>That being so, what's so hard about omitting it from the sign over the
>stand?
>
>The fact it don't offend whitefellas such as meself is neither here
>nor there.
>
>A pork pie don't offend me either, but I wouldn't offer one to a
>Muslim or a Jew.
>
>The fact that "Nigger" was just the (white)fella's nickname is
>trotted out as a supposedly killing rebuttal to the fact that some
>find the name offensive.
>
>My view is SFW; all that says is; those who find it offensive are in
>the minority.
>
>But consider this.
>
>Do you reckon the stand would be known as simply the "E.S. Brown
>Stand" if the fella's nickname was "Cuntface"?
>
Kia Ora
Too bad your argument makes so much sense.
Stupid white men think an a whole different level.
>
>
>CP
>
Actress Susan Sarandon: "I'd like a regime change in the United
States, but I would really resent Iraq coming in, throwing out Bush
and then telling us who to have." [Jan. 3, 2003]
Oswald P Wrong
+1000,
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>
>"Pete" <pe...@footycentral.com.spamsux> wrote in message
>news:WH8qa.10843$8K2.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> Chris Parslow wrote:
>> > THE federal Government is likely to thumb its nose at a UN
>decision
>> > that the word "Nigger" on a grandstand in Toowoomba is offensive
>and
>> > should be taken down.
>> >
>>
>> And rightly so, I don't hear the UN bitching about "Coon" cheese.
>
>
>That would be because Coon is a recognised surname and, in fact, the
>surname of the fella who first marketed that particular cheese.
>
>If E.S. Brown was born E.S. Nigger, I doubt anyone would be bitching
>either...
>
>
>CP
See what I mean.
Oswald P Wrong
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>- the UN doesn't make the laws of this
>country. If it did we would still be deciding the constitution.
What constitution?
Oswald P Wrong
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>Because courtesy would suggest not typing C U N T ! Nigger is not a swear
>word - to the majority of people anyway.
>
I see. So as long as you are in the majority then you are all right.
Tell me, what do you think of minority rights? It sounds like they
don't exist, or are at best irrelevant.
>Shit if this is our biggest concern in Australia 2003 then things like
>rapes, murders, pedophilia are really unimportant.
Typical of the looney right, what you don't understand you
trivialities.
Oswald P Wrong
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>P.S. Is PC CP's bizarro world counterpart?
LoL
Oswald P Wrong
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>
>Of cour
Hi Colin,
You know if you leave dogsh!t to dry in the sun on our farm it goes
white.
Coincidence or what?
Oswald P Wrong
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>> Agreed. It is an offensive term - and if I used that term in the presence
>> of aborigines, african americans, west indians or africans I'd expect -
>and
>> deserve - a thorough caning. What isn't helping is the growing trend,
>> particularly in some R&B and hip hop music, of the artists referring to
>> their friends as "niggas". If anything that just blurs the line even
>> further. Context and intent. It's the whole problem with classifying
>terms
>> as insults or not.
>
>Agreed. It's okay for one white guy to call another honky. If a negro called
>you one, it's different. Context and intent. Also the difference between
>manslaughter & murder?
Who was the bloke who offended all those Jews when he called New York
Hymietown?
Jesse Jackson perhaps.
The point being it's always the other guy who reckons that the words
they use aren't offensive and they are always wrong.
Didn't we have this conversation (or something similar) when you first
came on board asr-hell?
Oswald P Wrong
08:44:25 +1000,
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>"Slippery Sam" <so...@nospam2me.com> wrote in message
LoL
Sam's just p!ssed off because he's got a similar last name.
Slippery Sam
>> But seriously, if the High Court of Australia is telling you not
>> it's not meant to be offensive why should you insist on being
>> offended?
>
> And if the High Court tells you the moon is made of blue cheese do you
> agree.
Er yes, actually I probably would.
>Just because the High Court does agree with you doesn't mean
> you have to change your view. Its a free society after all.
No, but I might consider changing my view, especially when it's based on a
fallacy at law.
>> Surely, when
>> the opportunity arises to disempower such a word, you should take
>> it. By ruling the term "nigger" racially offensive, the UN gave
>> credibility to the notion of a perceived inferiority based on colour.
>
> Thats a little simplistic.
Not really. The more you intellectualize it, the more ridiculous it becomes.
If you want to give weight to the word as an insult, you're basically
affirming your need for it as an insult. And what purpose does that serve?
You want to preseve the notion that there's a word that so accurately
visualizes everything that is flawed about people with dark skin? Or would
you prefer to inch by inch water it down. Like wog, for example.
I'll give you another parallel. Suppose you called a West Indian a "slave."
How do you think he would react?
Now call an Aussie a "convict" and compare the response. Which is worse: a
criminal or a slave? I'd pick the former. Yet, we couldn't care less about
it.
So is it a matter of skin colour or thickness?
Sam
Slippery Sam
> I couldn't help but notice that
> "PC" <dri...@thepub.com>, Sat, 26 Apr 2003 08:45:52 GMT,
> blew it out his posterior thusly:
>
>> Because courtesy would suggest not typing C U N T ! Nigger is not a
>> swear word - to the majority of people anyway.
>>
>
> I see. So as long as you are in the majority then you are all right.
>
> Tell me, what do you think of minority rights? It sounds like they
> don't exist, or are at best irrelevant.
>
>> Shit if this is our biggest concern in Australia 2003 then things
>> like rapes, murders, pedophilia are really unimportant.
>
> Typical of the looney right, what you don't understand you
> trivialities.
You just need to fuck a black girl and get it out of your system.
Sam
Slippery Sam
And none more stupider than the self-loathing.
Sam
Slippery Sam
> "Colin Lord" <cl...@metz.une.edu.au>, Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:12:38 GMT,
> blew it out his posterior thusly:
>
>>
>> Of cour
>
> Hi Colin,
>
> You know if you leave dogsh!t to dry in the sun on our farm it goes
> white.
>
> Coincidence or what?
What that both you and dogshit are white? Er, good point. I think.
Sam
Marcus
>
> I think if it's okay for a darkie to call another darkie "nigger" - which
it
> appears it is - then it follows that it must be okay for a whitie to call
> another whitie "nigger." Or something.
Actually, tongue-in-cheek as it appears, that's a good point. There's
nothing about the word itself that is intrinsically offensive, as evidenced
by the lack of offence taken when it's said between two blacks. 'Nigger'
Brown on the grandstand isn't calling any person a nigger. Given that the
word is not intrinsically offensive, it follows that only an axe-grinding
aboriginal politician would bother to get offended by it.
BTW I've lived in Toowoomba four years and for the first two I wasn't even
aware there was such a grandstand. The only time I've heard about it is on
the news and that's the way basically the rest of Toowoomba knows about this
issue. Most simply see it as I do - a case of one small man trying to push
everyone else around. He's the only one talking about it and he's
determined us evil whities will do his bidding, or some such yawnishness.
He's against racism, but he hates white people, go figure.
Marcus
> The fact Hagan thought the term offensive didn't convince the courts
> it was illegal. But to say "There's no provision in any statute or
> common law for any form of remedy on the basis of being offended" is
> just plain bollocks.
Snipping your attached info, althoug it's interesting. After receiving an
insulting letter I checked into the legal way of dealing with it (ie the one
where you don't lay the smack down) and learned via the state govt's legal
site that just being insulted or offended by something or someone gives you
no right to sue. No tort has taken place. That's the basis of my
statement.
> >>The sign is on private land
>
> Pfffft. My house is on private land. If I put up a Biiiig sign
> saying <insert politician of choice> was a paedophile, do ya reckon
> I'd have a long before the boyzinblue arrived?
That's different, that would be (presumably) libellous. A house in
Toowoomba has had its development curtailed by a council ruling relating to
heritage values and the owner has emblazoned the mayor's name and that of
one of the other councillors with a statement like "offensive...pig's ear"
or something like that. The mayor might be offended that her name is used
in that way, but there's stuff-all she can do about it. Returning to
relevant matters, if you put a sign outside your house saying "Niggers
Welcome", I wonder what would happen. I don't think anyone could make you
take it down, although you'd have no windows within a week.
>
> >>and it doesn't incite racism.
>
> No, but how is that an essential component of an argument for the sign
> to be amended?
If the sign said "kill the niggers", it'd be gone. If it encouraged racial
prejudice, it'd be gone.
> However, keeping 'nigger' in circulation as a word with no attached
> taboo certainly don't help combat racism.
I am mystified by that comment. Outside this thread, and outside poor
impressions of boyz 'n' the hood, the word 'nigger' never leaves my mouth.
It's virtually dead as it is. To suggest that allowing the sign at
Toowoomba Sports Ground would be to remove the taboo of using the word as a
racist slur is ridiculous.
Marcus
"Chris Cox" <cj...@dontspamme.optushome.com.oz> wrote in message
> Agreed. It is an offensive term - and if I used that term in the presence
> of aborigines, african americans, west indians or africans I'd expect -
and
> deserve - a thorough caning.
Disagree - violence is not warranted on the basis of using words. You'd be
an insensitive arsehole, but you wouldn't *deserve* a caning. If your
missus cheats on you, does she deserve a caning? Of course not. Violence
doesn't follow as a logical result of anything other than self-defence.
Colin Lord
> Colin Lord <cl...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
> >> But seriously, if the High Court of Australia is telling you not
> >> it's not meant to be offensive why should you insist on being
> >> offended?
> >
> > And if the High Court tells you the moon is made of blue cheese do you
> > agree.
>
> Er yes, actually I probably would.
>
> >Just because the High Court does agree with you doesn't mean
> > you have to change your view. Its a free society after all.
>
> No, but I might consider changing my view, especially when it's based on a
> fallacy at law.
Fallacy at law? Whether a person is offended or not has nothing to do with
the law. Just because the high court says a name is legal doesn't mean the
person wasn't offended. If someone murders my family and the high court says
he can get away with it on technicality, does that mean I should shake the
guys hand and offer to buy him a beer and tell him "sorry mate, no hard
feelings?"
> >> Surely, when
> >> the opportunity arises to disempower such a word, you should take
> >> it. By ruling the term "nigger" racially offensive, the UN gave
> >> credibility to the notion of a perceived inferiority based on colour.
> >
> > Thats a little simplistic.
>
> Not really. The more you intellectualize it, the more ridiculous it
becomes.
> If you want to give weight to the word as an insult, you're basically
> affirming your need for it as an insult. And what purpose does that serve?
>
> You want to preseve the notion that there's a word that so accurately
> visualizes everything that is flawed about people with dark skin? Or would
> you prefer to inch by inch water it down. Like wog, for example.
>
> I'll give you another parallel. Suppose you called a West Indian a
"slave."
> How do you think he would react?
>
> Now call an Aussie a "convict" and compare the response. Which is worse: a
> criminal or a slave? I'd pick the former. Yet, we couldn't care less about
> it.
No, its a matter of what that word now means. Convict means bugger all as a
insult because it don't have the same malicous, degrading conotations
attached to it.
> So is it a matter of skin colour or thickness?
Its a matter of common courtesy.
Colin Lord
"Oswald P Wrong" <ossie...@spamawayexposures.co.nz> wrote in message
news:3ec4a036...@news.akl.ihug.co.nz...
I wonder if she actually appreciated the true irony of her own statement.
Slippery Sam
Unless you're a Kiwi (please note, racial slur intended).
Sam
Colin Lord
> I couldn't help but notice that
> "Colin Lord" <cl...@metz.une.edu.au>, Sat, 26 Apr 2003 12:12:38 GMT,
> blew it out his posterior thusly:
>
> >
> >Of cour
>
> Hi Colin,
>
> You know if you leave dogsh!t to dry in the sun on our farm it goes
> white.
And if let a wound fester and rot it goes black.
Coincidence or what?
Chris Parslow
"Danish Moo Cow" <Du...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:3eab2...@news.iprimus.com.au...
That's a genuine toughie, DMC.
CP
Slippery Sam
>> No, but I might consider changing my view, especially when it's
>> based on a fallacy at law.
>
> Fallacy at law? Whether a person is offended or not has nothing to do
> with the law. Just because the high court says a name is legal
> doesn't mean the person wasn't offended. If someone murders my family
> and the high court says he can get away with it on technicality, does
> that mean I should shake the guys hand and offer to buy him a beer
> and tell him "sorry mate, no hard feelings?"
No-one's family was murdered. It's a word on a sign, that one person is
making a big fuss over because he wants to take it out of context. The
courts refused to take it out of context, and rightly so.
I have less respect for the UN's kangaroo courts - with Human Rights
presided over by Libya - than the Australian legal system, who at least
understand the nuances of the Australian language.
> No, its a matter of what that word now means. Convict means bugger
> all as a insult because it don't have the same malicous, degrading
> conotations attached to it.
Get out of here. It means a criminal, a lowlife, someone you can't trust, so
you lock them away from society. In our case, it meant someone so
undesirable they were shipped to the other side of the world. The only
reason it doesn't work as an insult is because we decided not to let it get
to us.
A slave on the other hand, was a victim of injustice. They didn't do
anything wrong and have no reason to be shamed. On top of that white men
fought a bloody war against their own to liberate them.
Sometimes, maybe, you should call a sook, a sook.
If you want to witness real racism try somewhere there's a different price
for locals and foreigners. Hint: that's none of the countries run by "stupid
white men"
Sam
Colin Lord
> Colin Lord <cl...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
> >> No, but I might consider changing my view, especially when it's
> >> based on a fallacy at law.
> >
> > Fallacy at law? Whether a person is offended or not has nothing to do
> > with the law. Just because the high court says a name is legal
> > doesn't mean the person wasn't offended. If someone murders my family
> > and the high court says he can get away with it on technicality, does
> > that mean I should shake the guys hand and offer to buy him a beer
> > and tell him "sorry mate, no hard feelings?"
>
> No-one's family was murdered. It's a word on a sign, that one person is
> making a big fuss over because he wants to take it out of context. The
> courts refused to take it out of context, and rightly so.
No, but you seem to think that just because the High Court ruled the sign
didn't have to be taken down the man is not allowed to be offended.
> I have less respect for the UN's kangaroo courts - with Human Rights
> presided over by Libya - than the Australian legal system, who at least
> understand the nuances of the Australian language.
What are the "nuances" of nigger in the Australian context?
> > No, its a matter of what that word now means. Convict means bugger
> > all as a insult because it don't have the same malicous, degrading
> > conotations attached to it.
>
> Get out of here. It means a criminal, a lowlife, someone you can't trust,
so
> you lock them away from society. In our case, it meant someone so
> undesirable they were shipped to the other side of the world. The only
> reason it doesn't work as an insult is because we decided not to let it
get
> to us.
>
> A slave on the other hand, was a victim of injustice. They didn't do
> anything wrong and have no reason to be shamed. On top of that white men
> fought a bloody war against their own to liberate them.
And nigger means a black skinned person of almost subhuman status. Someone
genetically inferior to white person and deserving no respect. Even the
great American Jefferson thought they were subwhite.
I'm sure the KKK is writing down your arguments for a legal defense next
time they feel like having a go at a few of them thar "niggers". Y'all come
back now Sam.
Slippery Sam
> No, but you seem to think that just because the High Court ruled the
> sign didn't have to be taken down the man is not allowed to be
> offended.
Sure, he's allowed to be offended by whatever he likes, but his case that
others should be equally offended isn't convincing when the country's
highest courts disagree. Unless you buy into the concept that Australia is
rotten to the core, which again is your perogative, but you might like to
compare it to other countries, say any country in Africa, South America, the
Middle East, or Asia, before jumping to that conclusion. It's my observation
that few countries go to greater pains to fret about even the most petty
signs of racism than us.
I can tell you this much. It's not only uncommon, but against the law in
this country to rip off someone based on race, whereas it's standard
practice in more than half the rest of the world.
>> I have less respect for the UN's kangaroo courts - with Human Rights
>> presided over by Libya - than the Australian legal system, who at
>> least understand the nuances of the Australian language.
>
> What are the "nuances" of nigger in the Australian context?
That it's an Americanism that bears little relevance here. Just because
Aboriginals have black skin doesn't mean they have anything else in common
with Afro-Americans. Making that assumption is highly racist in itself.
> And nigger means a black skinned person of almost subhuman status.
> Someone genetically inferior to white person and deserving no
> respect. Even the great American Jefferson thought they were subwhite.
Yes, that's its history, but it doesn't mean you need to preserve it. If
anything, the Nigger Brown stand serves to destroy this meaning. How can
that be bad?
> I'm sure the KKK is writing down your arguments for a legal defense
> next time they feel like having a go at a few of them thar "niggers".
> Y'all come back now Sam.
Bollocks. Making a word taboo only empowers it. Besides which your argument
is ridiculous. Are you implying the KKK rely on the word "nigger" to
operate? Just stupid. These are people who in varying degrees want a white
America, and are prepared to use criminal force to achieve it. It's a lot
more than name-calling.
Sam
Colin Lord
> > No, but you seem to think that just because the High Court ruled the
> > sign didn't have to be taken down the man is not allowed to be
> > offended.
>
> Sure, he's allowed to be offended by whatever he likes, but his case that
> others should be equally offended isn't convincing when the country's
> highest courts disagree.
When did the High Court rule it wasn't offense? They ruled it wasn't
illegal, big difference.
> >> I have less respect for the UN's kangaroo courts - with Human Rights
> >> presided over by Libya - than the Australian legal system, who at
> >> least understand the nuances of the Australian language.
> >
> > What are the "nuances" of nigger in the Australian context?
>
> That it's an Americanism that bears little relevance here. Just because
> Aboriginals have black skin doesn't mean they have anything else in common
> with Afro-Americans. Making that assumption is highly racist in itself.
Answer the question.
> > I'm sure the KKK is writing down your arguments for a legal defense
> > next time they feel like having a go at a few of them thar "niggers".
> > Y'all come back now Sam.
>
> Bollocks. Making a word taboo only empowers it. Besides which your
argument
> is ridiculous.
If wandering around calling every black person you see a Nigger is
disempowering the word, then I suggest you trot off to Redfern and
disempower it some more.
Oswald P Wrong
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>"Slippery Sam" <so...@nospam2me.com> wrote in message
KAPOW!!!
Sams one of those shortarsed whiners who like to act tough on the
Internet with mummys computer but you've hit the nail on the head
here.
Stupid white men like him think it's cool to try and sound clever as
they repeat hillbilly rhetoric about them darn niggrahs getting
upitty, but really they are just rednecks in a nice shirt.
I remember when I was a kid we used to drive around and one of the
jokers who hung around with us, Honky Hudson, used to get a buzz out
of yelling 'Nigger' as we drove past brown blokes walking down the
street.
He'd always do this in someone elses car of course because he was a
really brave piece of sh!t.
I was driving down Otahuhu by Westfield one day and Honky leaned out
the window and screamed 'Nigger' at this bloke walking on the
footpath.
I stopped the car, got out and opened the passenger door and told him
to get the fugg out of my car.
The look on his face was priceless and the bloke he'd insulted came
running up to the car and asked Honky to repeat what he'd just yelled
out the window.
Honky shut up like the racist coward he was other than apologizing to
the 'nigger' saying it was just a joke.
I still made him walk home.
You wont see Sam down Redfern way calling it as he sees it but very
good call on your part Lordy.
I must buy you a beer on my next trip to Ockerville.
Cheers.
- - -
"I can't understand the squeamishness about using poison gas against
uncivilized tribes"
-- Winston Churchill on gassing Kurds early last century
rourkster
>
>If wandering around calling every black person you see a Nigger is
>disempowering the word, then I suggest you trot off to Redfern and
>disempower it some more.
>
mention here. Wouldn't be your own racial stereotypes coming out would
it? Are you suggesting that Redfern is full of Aboriginals roaming
around in packs waiting to assault white people? Shame on you.....
Rourkster
Colin Lord
"rourkster" <rour...@NOSPAMbigpond.com> wrote in message
news:ubaqavoukausqsbrf...@4ax.com...
> <snip>
> >
> >If wandering around calling every black person you see a Nigger is
> >disempowering the word, then I suggest you trot off to Redfern and
> >disempower it some more.
> >
> I'm interested to know why you singled out the suburb of Redfern for
> mention here.
Redfern does have a larger Aboriginal population that North Sydney. Yelling
'nigger' at a bunch of BMW driving yuppies will hardly disempower the word
as much as yelling it at a bunch of Aboriginals. So why not go where he can
do the most disempowering good.
> Wouldn't be your own racial stereotypes coming out would
> it? Are you suggesting that Redfern is full of Aboriginals roaming
> around in packs waiting to assault white people? Shame on you
> Rourkster
Nothing of the sort, that seems to be your stereotype.
Slippery Sam
> You wont see Sam down Redfern way calling it as he sees it but very
> good call on your part Lordy.
Dunno mate. My girlfriend, who's what you might like to class an Aboriginal,
and someone you no doubt would be falling over yourself to patronize, isn't
as hung up about this issue as you.
Nonetheless, it's true, I don't go around calling her relatives "niggers."
But I see no point in perpetuating this word as an insult. The more people,
and they have to be white, who refuse to give racial insults validity, the
sooner we move on from the ridiculous premise. I'm not saying you deny that
people get upset by racial remarks, of course they do, but it's more
constructive to water down the meaning of the word, than try to preserve it.
Sam
DaNRL
that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
> Josh Button <yo...@panthers.net.au> wrote:
>>> Nigger Brown obviously wasn't offended by the name.
>> Because he was a whitie, Was I offended when kids at school
>> called me sambo and nigger? Yes.
> I think if it's okay for a darkie to call another darkie "nigger" -
> which it appears it is - then it follows that it must be okay for a
> whitie to call another whitie "nigger." Or something.
> But seriously, if the High Court of Australia is telling you not
it's
> not meant to be offensive why should you insist on being
> offended? Surely, when the opportunity arises to disempower
> such a word, you should take it. By ruling the term "nigger"
> racially offensive, the UN gave credibility to the notion of a
> perceived inferiority based on colour.
Do you seriously believe the shit that comes out of your own
keyboard?
Daniel.
DaNRL
that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
> Colin Lord <cl...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote:
>> What are the "nuances" of nigger in the Australian context?
> That it's an Americanism that bears little relevance here.
> Just because Aboriginals have black skin doesn't mean
> they have anything else in common with Afro-Americans.
> Making that assumption is highly racist in itself.
Apart from having the same word used against them in
the same context for generations ...
>> And nigger means a black skinned person of almost subhuman
>> status. Someone genetically inferior to white person and
>> deserving no respect. Even the great American Jefferson
>> thought they were subwhite.
> Yes, that's its history, but it doesn't mean you need to preserve
it.
> If anything, the Nigger Brown stand serves to destroy this
> meaning. How can that be bad?
How can it do anything but the opposite. This word is beyond
the bounds of being rectified as being anything other than what
it was and always will be, that's the point. Call it the ES Brown
Stand and be done with it. Any other stands around with
non-racist Nicknames on them in Toowomba?
Daniel.
DaNRL
that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
> Marcus <nyuk...@stooge.com> wrote:
>> BTW I've lived in Toowoomba four years and for the first two
>> I wasn't even aware there was such a grandstand. The only
>> time I've heard about it is on the news and that's the way
>> basically the rest of Toowoomba knows about this issue. Most
>> simply see it as I do - a case of one small man trying to
>> push everyone else around. He's the only one talking about
>> it and he's determined us evil whities will do his bidding,
>> or some such yawnishness. He's against racism, but he hates
>> white people, go figure.
> I heard him on the radio talking about it, and of course, he
> does have a point. In his eyes the word "nigger" is the worst
> word in the world. Ironic really, because he must have used
> the word thirty times in the space of five minutes. And it has
> to be said, without being taken off air for using offensive
> language.
> In all fairness, the point is the word "nigger" doesn't neccessarily
> mean "black" even though it's a contraction of "negro" (Spanish for
> Black). It really means slave, which carries with it a class, rather
> than racial connotation. You don't get any lower class than being
> a slave. That's pretty much only one up from a dog, so you can
> imagine how a free black man would've liked being called a
> "nigger."
> Nowadays, I don't know. I'm not even sure what it's supposed
> to mean. But I do know we don't have to buy into the notion
> that calling someone Nigger as a nickname somehow offends
> everyone with dark skin. If the name was good enough for
> Nigger Brown, and Nigger Brown was good enough to have
> a stand named after him, what does that tell you about the
> name as an insult?
He wasn't given the Nickname nowadays though was he?
Ask yourselves the reason why he was given the nickname
harking back to your own claims on the high-courts
intrinsic vision into the Australian phsyci ... his name is
brown ... he's a 100% stand-up good bloke ... what
could be more "Aussie" that calling this obviously white,
obviously good bloke the worst name in the world
because his name is a description of the skin colour
of those evil dark dirty niggers.
But there's nothing negative in it's use there is there
Sam?
No
Really.
Daniel.
DaNRL
sweet wood moaned:
> "Chris Parslow" <chr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:b8dacj$8scfv$1...@ID-102354.news.dfncis.de...
>> "PC" <dri...@thepub.com> wrote in message
>> news:Glmqa.374$lD4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>> Chris I disagree with your post. The term "nigger" has been
>>> offensive for how long ?
>> Offensive to who? Some people still use the word in all
>> seriousness, as a term intended to offend.
>> From the PTV of the folk on the receiving end, it's probable
>> been offensive for as long as they realised it was more than
>> just a dispassionate description of dark-skinned people.
>>>> And to how many aboriginals or other races of people has
>>>> the term
>> been offensive ? It is not as if Mr Hagan is the first to be
>> offended - and if no-one else has stood up and said they find
>> it offensive, well then why change it for one dropkick ?
>> So you are saying here ....what? That "nigger" generally has
>> been offensive to "aboriginals or other races of people", or
>> just the sign? And if, as you say, "It is not as if Mr Hagan
>> is the first to be offended", then this is reason to keep the
>> sign, or keep using "nigger" in general conversation?
>> Whichever you mean, neither you nor I know that someone
>> *hasn't* "stood up and said they find it offensive". The
>> point was Hagan took the matter to court, not simply told
>> somebody...
>>> Hagan took his stance have come forward and wanted the name
>>> dropped. Your reference to if his nickname was ****face - is
>>> pie in the sky sort of stuff. The facts are - Browns
>>> nickname wasn't ****face - it was Nigger ;
>> Correct, and if his nickname among his mates was "Cuntface",
>> the papers wouldn't have used it then or now, nor would they
>> have used it on the sign. Because it's considered offensive,
>> then & now.
>> Otherwise, why would you type "nigger" in full, but then type
>> "****face"
> Because courtesy would suggest not typing C U N T ! Nigger is
> not a swear word - to the majority of people anyway.
Ask yourself why not ... no one can argue that they both haven't
been used with the same negative venom.
Daniel.
DaNRL
that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
> "Chris Parslow" <chr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:b8dacj$8scfv$1...@ID-102354.news.dfncis.de...
>> "PC" <dri...@thepub.com> wrote in message
>> news:Glmqa.374$lD4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>> Chris I disagree with your post. The term "nigger" has been
>>> offensive for how long ?
>>> Hagan took his stance have come forward and wanted the name
>>> dropped. Your reference to if his nickname was ****face - is
>>> pie in the sky sort of stuff. The facts are - Browns
>>> nickname wasn't ****face - it was Nigger ;
>> Correct, and if his nickname among his mates was "Cuntface",
>> the papers wouldn't have used it then or now, nor would they
>> have used it on the sign. Because it's considered offensive,
>> then & now.
>> Otherwise, why would you type "nigger" in full, but then type
>> "****face"
> A lot of people consider "boy" a racist term "Y'all come over
> here and clean my shoes, yeh hear now boy". Ali near clocked
> Bert Newton at the Logies for saying something like "I really
> like the boy". If it was ES "Boy" Brown would that be a
> problem?
Perhaps not ... although the negative use of boy would hardly
be the norm.
Daniel.
Slippery Sam
> because his name is a description of the skin colour
> of those evil dark dirty niggers.
This is the bit that's about you, and nothing to do with me.
Sam
Colin Lord
"DaNRL" <asrlto...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:b8kvjn$aroq2$1...@ID-158646.news.dfncis.de...
> Colin Lord <cl...@metz.une.edu.au> whilst enjoying the feel of
> that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
>
> > "Chris Parslow" <chr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> > news:b8dacj$8scfv$1...@ID-102354.news.dfncis.de...
>
> >> "PC" <dri...@thepub.com> wrote in message
> >> news:Glmqa.374$lD4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> > here and clean my shoes, yeh hear now boy". Ali near clocked
> > Bert Newton at the Logies for saying something like "I really
> > like the boy". If it was ES "Boy" Brown would that be a
> > problem?
>
> Perhaps not ... although the negative use of boy would hardly
> be the norm.
I think is where this debate should be settle. If origin of the word
"nigger" in ES Nigger Brown is from a clean origin (ala Coon in Coon cheese)
I think there is a case to be made for avoiding PC. I suspect its not so
clean.
DaNRL
that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
> DaNRL <asrlto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Anyhow that's me for the issue. But before I sign off, I'd
> like to point out that if one were to get overly sensitive then
> the word "redneck" is equally as bad, being an insult of social
> class, wealth and race, and an implication of a lower associated
> intellectual class. Accepting different semantic rules for different
> races is a negative symptom of racism in itself. It assumes
> superiority of a white masterclass, and that's what this whole
> issue is supposedly about.
I'd only like the make this point in regards to the term
Redneck ... nobody's really driving around yelling at
white people calling them a RedNeck just because
they're white.
The usually have to espouse some sort of "RedNeck"
view first.
In fact the term RedNeck was probably developed
by a white person.
Daniel.
DaNRL
that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
> DaNRL <asrlto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
I didn't give him the Nickname.
Daniel.
DaNRL
Bing-Go
Daniel.
Slippery Sam
> I'd only like the make this point in regards to the term
> Redneck ... nobody's really driving around yelling at
> white people calling them a RedNeck just because
> they're white.
>
> The usually have to espouse some sort of "RedNeck"
> view first.
>
> In fact the term RedNeck was probably developed
> by a white person.
DaNRL
that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
> DaNRL <asrlto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd only like the make this point in regards to the term
>> Redneck ... nobody's really driving around yelling at
>> white people calling them a RedNeck just because
>> they're white.
>> The usually have to espouse some sort of "RedNeck"
>> view first.
>> In fact the term RedNeck was probably developed
>> by a white person.
> Dunno, but at any rate my point is it's a class insult, same
> as "nigger." Implying "low class."
> And that it's ironic, even hypocritical, that the extreme
> left, who supposedly represent a working class struggle
> against elitism, use this word to define their position of
> intellectual white elitism. And this brand of extreme leftism
> is an almost uniquely white (psuedo) intellectual politic.
> Michael Moore is the prime opportunistic example.
From the link ...
As The Redneck Manifesto boldly points out and brilliantly
demonstrates, America's dirty little secret isn't racism, but
classism. While pouncing incessantly on racial themes, most major
media are silent about America's widening class rifts, a problem which
negatively affects more people of all colors than does racism. In a
nation obsessed with race, this book switches the focus firmly back
toward class, and it warns in a voice loud and clear that America will
never learn the true meaning of tolerance until it learns to embrace
the redneck. Until this book, no one has so fully explained why white
trash exists in America. Tracing the unique historical diaspora of
America's white poor, The Redneck Manifesto offers evidence that mass
forceful deportations of white slaves and convict laborers from the
British Isles formed the bulk of America's white underclass. Tracing
the history of these people, the book probes the hidden cultural
meanings behind jokes about inbreeding and bestiality. It gets its
hands dirty with blue-collar frustration, recreational desperation,
and religious salvation. It discusses the value of Elvis, Bigfoot, and
space aliens as objects of spiritual veneration. It offers solid
logical defenses of tax protest, gun ownership, and antigovernment
"hate speech." And it lists surprising reasons for why rednecks and
blacks have more in common with each other than either group does with
white liberals.
......
There's some truth in the last sentence, for example, it wasn't poor
black people protesting against Eminem.
The only real problem I have with any of that is the assumption that
you're a redneck merely by virtue of the fact you're white and poor.
I would assert that you can be white, poor and still not be a redneck.
Do you think you could be poor and black and not be called a nigger by
those with the propensity to use the word?
Daniel.
DaNRL
that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
> DaNRL <asrlto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> I'd only like the make this point in regards to the term
>> Redneck ... nobody's really driving around yelling at
>> white people calling them a RedNeck just because
>> they're white.
>> The usually have to espouse some sort of "RedNeck"
>> view first.
>> In fact the term RedNeck was probably developed
>> by a white person.
> Dunno, but at any rate my point is it's a class insult, same
> as "nigger." Implying "low class."
> And that it's ironic, even hypocritical, that the extreme
> left, who supposedly represent a working class struggle
> against elitism, use this word to define their position of
> intellectual white elitism. And this brand of extreme leftism
> is an almost uniquely white (psuedo) intellectual politic.
> Michael Moore is the prime opportunistic example.
From the link ...
Anthony Swann
> "Colin Lord" <cl...@metz.une.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:WIuqa.1470$lD4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > > Do you reckon the stand would be known as simply the "E.S. Brown
> > > Stand" if the fella's nickname was "Cuntface"?
> >
> > Of course not, there is no way a swear word would be allowed. Try
> something
> > anti-white such as honky or redneck (or someother antiwhite word)? Would
> ES
> > "Honky" Brown be OK, ES "Redneck" Brown?
>
> Another example of context. What about if a venue in Melbourne was named
> the ES "Wog" Brown stand about 20 years ago. The Greek community would have
> been greatly offended no doubt. However, that term, due to their own
> mocking and acceptance of it, has largely been ignored as being offensive.
> However, if you walked up to someone and called them a "dirty stinking wog"
> you would still be in trouble for racial vilification.
>
> How can you objectively judge between an insult and a term of endearment?
Like the word "bastard".
"Which one of you bastards called this bastard a bastard?"
Attributed to Victor Richardson, talking to his Australia team-mates
while referring to Douglas Jardone during the Bodyline series. Although
apparently he didn't actually say this, it's still a classic one-liner
that outlines the blurred nature of such words...
Ant.
--
to reply, use "aDOTswannATqutDOTeduDOTau", but replace "DOT" with "." and
"AT with "@" (I'm sick of getting spam!!).
Ossie
"Mike 'What Me, Sorry?' Burke"
<no.stolen....@my.watch.net.au>
wrote in message news:k7evavs0v43tdjvtu...@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 04:56:40 GMT, "My Good Mate and Fellow neoCon Slippery
Sam" <so...@nospam2me.com>
> wrote:
>
<Snip stupid white angst designed at changing the gist of the thread to yet
another whinge on behalf of whitey>
>
> Like all such pejoratives, it tells us more about the people who use
> it than about those to whom it's applied.
>
> Mike
Hey Mike when you have finished sticking up for your fellow neo-Con rednecks
in the terrorist boys club called the KKK how about telling the good people
of asr-l what your thoughts are about a stand in your country being called
the Nigger Brown stand.
It should be interesting as you defend that.
OTY Redneck.
Ossie
"Mike Burke" <miq...@pacific.net.au> wrote in message
news:r8s3bvkiuf7bak1f8...@4ax.com...
>
> Mike
Typo fixed.
Please stop sending your trademark patronising garbage to my email address.
If you want to apologise for your appallingly racist and Conservative posts
do it publicly or shut tf up.
If you really feel so appalled at the shower of sh!t you have lined up with
publicly then have the balls to say so publicly or stop fuggen whinging.
You and your fellow human rights activists must feel good this morning
reading the paper finding your heroic Israeli military shooting 2 year olds
in the head to prevent terrorism.
Oh, and seeing as how you have chosen to avoid answering the question I'll
pencil you in as being proud that Australia has a sports ground that
celebrates the term Nigger.
You may now go and apply more skid marks to your bright red neck.
Have a nice day.
DaNRL
that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
> Oi, answer your email.
Good luck.
Daniel
Michael Burke
>On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:55:42 GMT, "Colin Lord" <cl...@metz.une.edu.au>
>wrote:
>
>
>>You can't. But we live in a society that changes a word when ever we don't
>>like it. Crippled became mobility disadvantaged which became mobility
>>challenged. You can't refer to people as spastic any more, despite there
>>actually being a spastic society, because of attached stigma.
>>
>I can remember when *spastic* was considered a flippant kind of insult
>and then it eventually became clear that it was taken as an insult by
>many people who had cerebal palsy. So I made an effort to stop using
>the term.
>
>If the guy's nickname had been Spastic Brown, or even Spaz Brown I'd
>think the name was just as inappropriate now as Nigger Brown. Even
>though it had its origins in a time when it was used without
>maliciously negative connotations.
I think this is the whole point: times change, and names that are
_now_ known to be _now_ offensive to others, however few, or for
whatever reason, should no longer be used. It's irrelevant what might
have been the situation at any other time. That was then, this is
now.
Change the sign.
Mike
Slippery Sam
> On Sun, 27 Apr 2003 08:55:42 GMT, "Colin Lord" <cl...@metz.une.edu.au>
> think the name was just as inappropriate now as Nigger Brown. Even
> though it had its origins in a time when it was used without
> maliciously negative connotations.
You were saying?
http://www.sportaid.com/catalog/page16.shtml
http://www.spazzo.com/spazzo.cfm
Or perhaps you'd like to read a whole lot of guff intellectualizing the
subject:
http://www.salon.com/books/feature/2002/01/22/kennedy/
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375713719/
Or maybe you could just let go of your natural instinct to angst and beat
yourself up, and see that it isn't actually hurting anyone. And it isn't.
The only way to make this stand insulting is for people like you to insist
that it MUST BE insulting. Then we have to ask, what is it about this word
that makes it so unintentionally insulting? Oh, that's right, white folks
are supposed to not like black folks. Yes, keep reminding us so we don't
forget.
You want to maintain the status quo of idiocy like this, you preserve the
sanctity of this word, even out of context.
Sam
Oswald P Wrong
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>Slippery Sam <so...@nospam2me.com> whilst enjoying the feel of
>that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
>
>> DaNRL <asrlto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Anyhow that's me for the issue.
What's the bet that the Anonymous Troll is lying again?
Sambo couldn't stay out of a thread where someone was suggesting the
niggrahs had any rights any more than he could stay out of a thread
calling Michael Moore an American patriot.
- - -
His (Saddam Hussein’s) military planning allows for some of the WMD to
be ready within 45 minutes of an order to use them.
Tony Blair, Foreword to Iraq Dossier
Slippery Sam
>> You want to maintain the status quo of idiocy like this, you
>> preserve the sanctity of this word, even out of context.
>
>>
> As grumpy ol' man Burke says: Change the sign.
I'm not completely stupid. I do get your argument. And I do understand why
you would assume it to be the right thing to do. But I don't think you get
mine.
Never mind, I'm sure your's is the prevailing view. But I don't necessarily
think that indicates you have clean hands. I think this is just your way of
trying to exorcise some sense of guilt, that you've probably acquired by way
of privilege, rather than wrongdoing.
I'll leave you with one example to ponder. In the UK, "Paki" is like
"Nigger." If you say it inadvertantly, people will duck for cover. In
Australia, however, it's benign, as witnessed by its use in cricket
commentary. And so it should be. It's no different from "Aussie" or "Kiwi,"
and certainly not in the potentially offensive category of "Pommy."
Now my question is which country is hiding its racial prejudice: the country
that censors the word "Paki," or the one that refuses to embrace it as an
insult?
Sam
Oswald P Wrong
blew it out his posterior thusly:
>On Wed, 07 May 2003 05:13:00 GMT, "Slippery Sam" <so...@nospam2me.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>Or perhaps you'd like to read a whole lot of guff intellectualizing the
>>subject:
>
>You sling off at intellectualising -- and then wind up with this:
>
>>The only way to make this stand insulting is for people like you to insist
>>that it MUST BE insulting. Then we have to ask, what is it about this word
>>that makes it so unintentionally insulting? Oh, that's right, white folks
>>are supposed to not like black folks. Yes, keep reminding us so we don't
>>forget.
>>
>>You want to maintain the status quo of idiocy like this, you preserve the
>>sanctity of this word, even out of context.
>
>Stop treating logic like a Gumby doll.
ROLF.
Go easy on the poor begger DebS
Geez Sambo, what afre the lads at the local KKK gonna say when you get
fined for getting hammered by a liberal sheila.
>>
>As grumpy ol' man Burke says: Change the sign.
Yes, I read Mikes post on that. Very patronising as usual (loved the
'no matter how few' bit) but at least he has dissasociated himself
from his fellow rednecks over an issue he clearly has problems coming
to terms with.
It must have been very difficult for him to do that.
No doubt he's done a round of private emails and cleared up what he
really meant :-)
>
>DebS
Slippery Sam
> Geez Sambo, what afre the lads at the local KKK gonna say when you get
> fined for getting hammered by a liberal sheila.
Odd conclusion given what was snipped. Perhaps if you turned off your kill
file you might be able to follow the thread.
As for your persistant KKK remarks. I can only put that down to you being a
fuckwit.
Sam
DaNRL
enjoying the feel of that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
> I couldn't help but notice that
> "DaNRL" <asrlto...@hotmail.com>, Wed, 30 Apr 2003 13:16:20
> +1000, blew it out his posterior thusly:
>> Slippery Sam <so...@nospam2me.com> whilst enjoying the feel of
>> that sweet, sweet wood moaned:
>>> DaNRL <asrlto...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anyhow that's me for the issue.
> What's the bet that the Anonymous Troll is lying again?
> Sambo couldn't stay out of a thread where someone was
> suggesting the niggrahs had any rights any more than he
> could stay out of a thread calling Michael Moore an
> American patriot.
To be fair he only posted 10/15 more posts since he said he
was finished on the issue ...
Daniel.