New gadets on ticket barriers

[Matthew Geier]

The ticket barriers at North Ryde station have aquired a widget that wasn't there last time I went though - a little LCD screen in the middle.
<https://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo/ActY-k3WW34bZ-7rwLvKd9MTjNZETYmyPJy0liipFm0?feat=directlink>

I assume it's part of the next attempt at Smart Card ticketing. They are in the wrong place to be part of the ticket scanner, but ideally placed to show you the remaining balance on your ticket.

At the moment they seem to only show 'ready' if you can walk through the gate and closed on a red background if you can't. Seems a lot of effort to got to to add these displays just for that.

[Owen]

Probably will display things like "Ticket accepted", "Money left", "Money added since last use", maybe date and time.



Owen

[Peter]

With advertising to come.
Watch this space..... While you wait for the barrier to open.

--
:-P

[Matthew Geier]

On Tuesday, 10 April 2012 19:04:40 UTC+10, Peter wrote:
>
>
> With advertising to come.
> Watch this space..... While you wait for the barrier to open.
>

Well if they use the same software contractors as Myki, there certainly will be time between scanning the card and opening the gates to throw up a quick addvert while the system thinks about how valid your ticket is.

Melbourne's validators are the slowest I've come across.

[Petzl]

The thugs out our way (Campbelltown platform 3) don't buy tickets they
just open the plastic barrier gates by hand? These "gates" don't
require force open easily? They seem to be there to hinder those that
pay?
--
Petzl
Chattanooga choo choo
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1d2em_chattanooga-choo-choo_fun

[Matthew Geier]

On Wednesday, 11 April 2012 11:52:28 UTC+10, Petzl wrote:

> The thugs out our way (Campbelltown platform 3) don't buy tickets they
> just open the plastic barrier gates by hand? These "gates" don't
> require force open easily? They seem to be there to hinder those that
> pay?

The gates have to be easy to force open for emergency egress reasons. Seems a big red 'emergency exit' button was unsuitable.
The gate actuators have to be weak otherwise Cityrail would be fielding even more claims for injury when a gate closes on some one.

The gates used to make a loud horrible noise if the flaps were forced open, but this nose maker appears to have been disconnected, I haven't heard a forced gate scream for years now.

[Petzl]

You think it could take a photo
A cheap security camera is a digital one, 3mega pixel (cheap 2nd hand
on Ebay) or better with flash.
Needs a "remote" (they are bought cheap from Ebay)
One can easily rig a "passive infrared" (cheap from Ebay) to activate
remote which in turn activates camera
Opening a Barrier could also do this
(at home just positioned inside window looking out, angled protect
from sun, A4 cardboard between window and camera helps do this)
They can also buy proper protective Camera housings (Ebay?)
< http://tinyurl.com/cwdk724 >
4Gig memory cards that transmit via WiFi to computer are also
available but not necessary (Eye Fi)
< http://tinyurl.com/6voeb8s >
These photos are clear you can see the colour of their eyes, the hair
growing out of their nose. Tends to keep crims away advertise they are
WATCHING!!!
--
The Marvelous Toy
www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxeIHcvPmtA

[Matthew Geier]

On Wednesday, 11 April 2012 22:58:32 UTC+10, Petzl wrote:

> You think it could take a photo
> A cheap security camera is a digital one, 3mega pixel (cheap 2nd hand
> on Ebay) or better with flash.
> Needs a "remote" (they are bought cheap from Ebay)
> One can easily rig a "passive infrared" (cheap from Ebay) to activate
> remote which in turn activates camera
> Opening a Barrier could also do this

And probably would not be admissible as evidence. I've been involved in a case where security cameras did capture the 'evil doer' but the police said the recording as largely useless as not only the quality of the recording was poor but mostly due to lack of a verifiable timecode on the recording. (Which they use to detect tampering with the footage). They recognised the perp anyway - he had a 'history'.

Besides many Cityrail stations are already covered with digital video cameras the recording are all stored in a legally approved manner so they can be used as evidence. Campbeltown's barriers are probably covered by more than one camera already.
It would 'simply' be a matter of arranging a 'gate forced' signal to be sent to the digital recording system so it can add a marker to the recordings from the appropriate cameras. Recordings that are being made anyway but only looked at if there is an 'incident'. Presumably no one thinks it worth the trouble.

In Paris 'barrier jumpers' are almost an institution. As a result many stations have full height 'jump proof' gates for entry and exit from the station. And don't toss your ticket once through the barrier (Paris Metro is check on entry only). The ticket inspectors are savage to any one found on a train or at an exit barrier who doesn't have a valid ticket on their person. It's assumed you were a barrier jumper and treated accordingly.

[Petzl]

My problem with these thugs are they only get on trains to mainly
vandalize them and harass passengers.

So it would make sense to do something as opposed to nothing or
consider improving "what is"

Digital cameras 3 meg or better (most are 12 meg or even more) take
time stamped photos, very much superior quality to CCTV cameras, which
so far take poor quality "snaps" (I see them in the local paper when
looking for thug usually for assult & robbery). But are improving.

The videos though are good for jogging witnesses memory of events and
can help identify. Snaps really come into their own for publishing in
paper

As for used for evidence as long as a witness can
state/testifiy/back/confirm them and that they saw the incident
photographs becomes legal so does CCTV. On their own a Judge can still
ask to see them and act on them. Witness's though are still crucial.

Lawyers don't like evidence does them out of a job, that's what the
main objection about them is. If the law worked Lawyers would have to
reduce prices (can't even sue them?)

For the home it only costs $20 at local pub to show the photo to get
the photo'ed thugs ears removed. I'm finding thugs don't like being
photographed

Petzl
--
Australia's parliament needs to obey our Constitutions, the judiciary must apply the law!
Sir John Downer QC stated, when the Australian Constitution was finally adopted and on behalf of future generations, ‘Our Australian Commonwealth from its first stage will be a Christian Commonwealth’.

[Sylvia Else]

Better not be showing money left, etc., given that it's private
information and the screen would be visible to other passengers. Now
Cityrail might feel that was not information that people should be
sensitive about, but it's not their decision to make.

Sylvia.

[Matthew Geier]

On Thursday, 12 April 2012 11:54:41 UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:

>
> Better not be showing money left, etc., given that it's private
> information and the screen would be visible to other passengers. Now
> Cityrail might feel that was not information that people should be
> sensitive about, but it's not their decision to make.

Ticket barriers all over the world show the remaining credit on multi-use tickets. It's a very useful bit of information to know - if you are not running on auto-top up or some sort of periodical, how do you know it's time to put some more credit on the card?

Duck over to the TVM and ask for balance ?. Which it shows on a larger screen that all those in the line behind you could read if they do desired ?

[Sylvia Else]

Go to the web page from the comfort and privacy of your own home. Don't
have a computer or Internet access? Move into the modern age.

Sylvia.

[Matthew Geier]

On Thursday, 12 April 2012 17:01:04 UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>
> Go to the web page from the comfort and privacy of your own home. Don't
> have a computer or Internet access? Move into the modern age.

So one has to login to the web site before leaving home, check the credit left on the card, work out your days travel and caculate if you have enough credit ?.

Rather defeats the entire purpose of the system if you ask me....


I would consider showing the remaining 'pay as you go balance' each time an important feature. All the systems I've used do this. It's convenient and helpful to know.

[Sylvia Else]

Well, CityRail should at least allow users to configure their account so
that the balance is not displayed at the barriers.

That's if, of course, CityRail intend to display tbe balances anyway,
which is at the moment only speculation.

Sylvia.

[Peter]

So would everyone else...
One problem with the "smart tickets" in Melbourne is it takes a full 24
hours for EFT funds to appear on the ticket before is is to be used for
travel.

--
:-P

[john...@nospam.com.au]

In <slo9o7do2j1s9qrsv...@4ax.com>, Petzl <pet...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 13:49:58 -0700 (PDT), Matthew Geier
><mat...@sleeper.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
>>On Tuesday, 10 April 2012 19:04:40 UTC+10, Peter wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> With advertising to come.
>>> Watch this space..... While you wait for the barrier to open.
>>>
>>
>> Well if they use the same software contractors as Myki, there certainly will be time between scanning the card and opening the gates to throw up a quick addvert while the system thinks about how valid your ticket is.
>>
>> Melbourne's validators are the slowest I've come across.
>
>The thugs out our way (Campbelltown platform 3) don't buy tickets they
>just open the plastic barrier gates by hand? These "gates" don't
>require force open easily? They seem to be there to hinder those that
>pay?

What do you do when the machine fails to recognise your valid ticket?

[Matthew Geier]

I have never seen that done. It would appear no system designer considers hiding the balance from the prying eyes of the person behind you a 'problem'.

And beware of adding too many 'features' otherwise the transaction time will be too slow like Melbourne's much maligned Myki.
Myki has got to take twice as long to validate a card than either London Oyster or Singapore's EzLink. (I have a Queensland GoCard too, but only limited use of it, but I don't remember it's transaction times being noticeably long like Melbourne's)

[Petzl]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:27:34 GMT, john...@nospam.com.au wrote:

>>
>>The thugs out our way (Campbelltown platform 3) don't buy tickets they
>>just open the plastic barrier gates by hand? These "gates" don't
>>require force open easily? They seem to be there to hinder those that
>>pay?
>
>What do you do when the machine fails to recognise your valid ticket?

Never happened to me. I have seen some putting them in the wrong way
and during peak times queue's back up.
I understand that in an emergency situation a gate that can't be
opened is no good either.
In Stockholm 1979 one only needed a "monthly" with your photo on it.
These were randomly checked. Seemed to work did not see anyone without
a valid ticket (I watched)

[Petzl]

The Internet is not private either. Gmail reads all email. Never given
them my real name, address or age. They now know age and address from
my email. There adverts target me with woman my age, google maps asked
would I like to see my address clicking on it shows a aerial photo
with my vehicle in driveway. Click street view it shows more?
--
Petzl
The Times They Are A-Changin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mYQZSDOWwww

[Sylvia Else]

On 13/04/2012 12:31 PM, Petzl wrote:
> On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 05:38:54 -0700 (PDT), Matthew Geier
> <mat...@sleeper.apana.org.au> wrote:
>
>> On Thursday, 12 April 2012 17:01:04 UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>
>>> Go to the web page from the comfort and privacy of your own home. Don't
>>> have a computer or Internet access? Move into the modern age.
>>
>> So one has to login to the web site before leaving home, check the credit left on the card, work out your days travel and caculate if you have enough credit ?.
>>
>> Rather defeats the entire purpose of the system if you ask me....
>>
>> I would consider showing the remaining 'pay as you go balance' each time an important feature. All the systems I've used do this. It's convenient and helpful to know.
>
> The Internet is not private either. Gmail reads all email.

So one doesn't use Gmail.

Sylvia.

[Sylvia Else]

On 13/04/2012 7:01 AM, Matthew Geier wrote:
> On Thursday, 12 April 2012 23:25:16 UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>> On 12/04/2012 10:38 PM, Matthew Geier wrote:
>>> On Thursday, 12 April 2012 17:01:04 UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Go to the web page from the comfort and privacy of your own home. Don't
>>>> have a computer or Internet access? Move into the modern age.
>>>
>>> So one has to login to the web site before leaving home, check the credit left on the card, work out your days travel and caculate if you have enough credit ?.
>>>
>>> Rather defeats the entire purpose of the system if you ask me....
>>>
>>>
>>> I would consider showing the remaining 'pay as you go balance' each time an important feature. All the systems I've used do this. It's convenient and helpful to know.
>>
>> Well, CityRail should at least allow users to configure their account so
>> that the balance is not displayed at the barriers.
>>
>> That's if, of course, CityRail intend to display tbe balances anyway,
>> which is at the moment only speculation.
>
> I have never seen that done. It would appear no system designer considers hiding the balance from the prying eyes of the person behind you a 'problem'.
>

> And beware of adding too many 'features' otherwise the transaction time will be too slow...

There is no good reason for validation to take a time that is even
detectable by a human. If it does, it's because the design is rubbish.

Sylvia.

[Petzl]

On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 14:58:04 +1000, Sylvia Else
<syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:

>>
>> The Internet is not private either. Gmail reads all email.
>
>So one doesn't use Gmail.

This is their disadvantage!
Did not know there electronic reading was that good.
I use it for acceptable junk mail from Woolworth's "reward points"
(got a $100 a month ago) Travel agents and so on. As well as a contact
address here, spam protection is excellent.
Also Australian ISP's who always haved sucked at email are turning you
over to "these" type of providers!
http://go.bigpond.com/services/email/
--
Petzl
Bob Carr the most hated politician in NSW
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50667687/BobCarr.png
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50667687/Bob_Carr.png

[Matthew Geier]

On Thursday, 12 April 2012 06:27:34 UTC+10, (unknown) wrote:

>
> What do you do when the machine fails to recognise your valid ticket?

You go to the person manning the gate. If no one is manning the gate one or more of the gates are left open.
At the gated stations in my area they tend to leave the wide gate open if no staff are available for the gatebox.

[Matthew Geier]

On Thursday, 12 April 2012 08:14:47 UTC+10, Petzl wrote:

> Digital cameras 3 meg or better (most are 12 meg or even more) take
> time stamped photos, very much superior quality to CCTV cameras, which
> so far take poor quality "snaps" (I see them in the local paper when
> looking for thug usually for assult & robbery). But are improving.
>

The digital video camera that CityRail use are capable of generating perfect stills from the digital stream.
I get perfect stills out of my own $300 digital video camera.

The 'poor quality snaps' you see in the local paper are off analogue slow scan recording systems that do have poor image quality - and especially so after you generate the still by taking a photograph of the TV screen with the pause button pressed on the video tape deck :-)

The main issue now is that you have to prove the image wasn't tampered with, which in this day and age of 'photo-shopping' is a serious concern.

[Matthew Geier]

On Friday, 13 April 2012 05:40:47 UTC+10, Peter wrote:

> So would everyone else...
> One problem with the "smart tickets" in Melbourne is it takes a full 24
> hours for EFT funds to appear on the ticket before is is to be used for
> travel.

That's cause they decided that being able to 'pick up' the 'recharge' at any location in the system was a good idea. The mobile validators (in the buses and tram) are not live online, the on board systems only 'synchronise' when the vehicle gets back to the depot and is in range of the depot WiFi network.

Probably one of the reasons the Myki validators are so slow - every time you present your card it has to look up it's local copy of 'pending recharges' to see if your card is on the list - a list that will contain EVERY Myki recharge that was pending the last time the vehicle syncronised it's list.

London's Oyster has the 'annoying' feature that you have to nominate the a station to pick up your recharge, and you can't do it on a bus at all. But it does mean the 'pending recharge' list is specific to only that station and is this some what smaller.

[Petzl]

Sounds correct thank you.

Just always got me when the local paper has a "smudgy" image where
the police are looking to identify for questioning.

The court concerns are overridden when a, or witness's can testify the
photo is correct and not tampered.

Were just trying to point out that one can now buy quality digital
cameras for effective security surveillance particularly 2nd hand good
& cheap

[john...@nospam.com.au]

In <sd3fo75ejmk1hvg5o...@4ax.com>, Petzl <pet...@gmail.com> writes:
>On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 20:27:34 GMT, john...@nospam.com.au wrote:
>
>>>
>>>The thugs out our way (Campbelltown platform 3) don't buy tickets they
>>>just open the plastic barrier gates by hand? These "gates" don't
>>>require force open easily? They seem to be there to hinder those that
>>>pay?
>>
>>What do you do when the machine fails to recognise your valid ticket?
>
>Never happened to me. I have seen some putting them in the wrong way
>and during peak times queue's back up.

There are 4 ways to insert a ticket into a pull through reader. Only one of
them works.

A significant proportion of train, bus and ferry users in Sydney CBD are
visitors whose home ticketing system is quite different to Sydney's.

If Sylvia was designing the system it would accept a ticket in any orientation.

[Petzl]

A matter of cost, I see rechargeable credit cards that just have to go
near reader not through it.

Still think that security cams need a dedicated high format camera to
remotely take CLEAR photos. This way you not only identify the thugs
you identify witnesses as well
--
Petzl

[Sylvia Else]

On 14/04/2012 10:03 PM, Matthew Geier wrote:

> Probably one of the reasons the Myki validators are so slow - every time you present your card it has to look up it's local copy of 'pending recharges' to see if your card is on the list - a list that will contain EVERY Myki recharge that was pending the last time the vehicle syncronised it's list.

Only if the programmer was incredibly naive. There are elementary
algorithms that will perform that function in a time too short to be
noticable to a human.

Sylvia.

[john...@nospam.com.au]

I have done that but they cannot explain why the valid ticket is rejected.

[john...@nospam.com.au]

I suppose that if one records the payment on the card, instead of on a central
database, then the ruperts of this world will hack the card and get free
travel.

[Matthew Geier]

On Monday, April 16, 2012 10:35:31 PM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
>
> >
> A matter of cost, I see rechargeable credit cards that just have to go
> near reader not through it.
>

Banks already issue such cards.

> Still think that security cams need a dedicated high format camera to
> remotely take CLEAR photos. This way you not only identify the thugs
> you identify witnesses as well

Digital video security cameras CAN already do this, but not by taking special hires shots, but just pulling a frame out of the digital recording.

If I can do this with a $300 GoPro HeroHD video camera, a $$$$ system monitoring security for real should be able to as well.


Although CityRail / NSW DOT have a long history of being ripped off by their vendors, paying premium prices for obsolete junk. Cityrail's digital video cameras might be running QCIF video or something low res like that instead of a modern HD format or even one of the higher res versions of CIF.

[Matthew Geier]

Given some of the other stupid things Myki has don't don't be so sure. And EVERY BUS AND TRAM has to have the complete list. They can optimize by removing the recharges they have seen, but the majority of the list will not be seen by that vehicle. Ever. And this large lists of card numbers are carried around, never to be used until eventually the data gets purged one evening by a depot re-sync.
I under stand some buses stay out on the road several days with out returning to the depot. I don't know how they are supposed to work. Perhaps the few places that uses buses like that have mobile phone network data connections.

[Matthew Geier]

On Monday, April 16, 2012 11:03:54 AM UTC+10, (unknown) wrote:

>
> I have done that but they cannot explain why the valid ticket is rejected.

Why could they ?. They have no access to any data that would allow this to be determined. If keen they could swipe your ticket in the terminal in the 'gate box' and see what it says, but most staff can't be bothered. It's not as if they can do anything to fix the problem is the terminal says there is one. They don't have that kind of access to the system.

On most occasions why my ticket has misread and been rejected, I try an adjacent gate and usually it works. If it doesn't work in the 2nd gate the error code is usually 'pass back', which means the first gate got as far as marking the ticket as used at this station before having it's dummy spit and rejecting the ticket.

Smart card tickets are not going to solve that problem - although being non contact the tickets and the gates shouldn't suffer the same kind of wear that can make mag stripe tickets dodgy.

[Petzl]

On Mon, 16 Apr 2012 16:36:59 -0700 (PDT), Matthew Geier
<mat...@sleeper.apana.org.au> wrote:

>On Monday, April 16, 2012 10:35:31 PM UTC+10, Petzl wrote:
>>
>> >
>> A matter of cost, I see rechargeable credit cards that just have to go
>> near reader not through it.
>>
> Banks already issue such cards.
>

Post office already sell them. They would make excellent rail tickets
(public Transport)
The stations would be Gateless Photographing those that don't pay. A
proper gate closing only when it detects non-payment The length of
barrier should be such that it can close to do this with-in a time of
detection

>> Still think that security cams need a dedicated high format camera to
>> remotely take CLEAR photos. This way you not only identify the thugs
>> you identify witnesses as well
>
> Digital video security cameras CAN already do this, but not by taking special hires shots, but just pulling a frame out of the digital recording.
>
> If I can do this with a $300 GoPro HeroHD video camera, a $$$$ system monitoring security for real should be able to as well.
>
>
> Although CityRail / NSW DOT have a long history of being ripped off by their vendors, paying premium prices for obsolete junk. Cityrail's digital video cameras might be running QCIF video or something low res like that instead of a modern HD format or even one of the higher res versions of CIF.
>

This is my old Minolta 12 meg pixel camera
< http://dl.dropbox.com/u/50667687/PO-0045.jpg >
I see 45 meg ones by Pentax prety cheap though
Just seeing if this is what you expect general Melbourne street photo
unretouched.
As I said before unimpressed with what I have seen on Cityrail's CCTV
cameras. Still shots taken on movement are far superior IMO
--
Petzl

[Sylvia Else]

On the Myki website it says

"If you do not use your myki within 90 days of topping up online, your
top up is temporarily suspended. Any existing value on your myki card is
unaffected and remains available to use for travel."

I think one can infer from that that the top up is removed from the
buses and trams 90 days after it is generated. This prevents an
otherwise possible endless accumulation of top ups that never get used.

Top ups that have been used presumably get expunged from all vehicles as
a result of a vehicle reporting the use.

I don't see a problem with all the vehicles holding a complete list of
all the pending top ups. The amount of memory required is not great by
today's standards, and as I've indiciated, searching for a topup quickly
is an elementary task.

When you say that the Myki validators are slow, what do you have in
mind? Half a second? Ten seconds?

Sylvia.

[Matthew Geier]

On Tuesday, 17 April 2012 14:49:21 UTC+10, Sylvia Else wrote:

> When you say that the Myki validators are slow, what do you have in
> mind? Half a second? Ten seconds?

London Oyster (which also allows online top ups) read and allow access faster than you notice - it's not slower than the time take for the same gate to read an old magnetic ticket.
Singapore is almost instant. I had one day of using Brisbane's GoCard and didn't notice the validation time at all.

MyKi is noticeably slower than Oyster (or Singapore's EzLink) despite the computers running being 10 years newer.
I also notice a lot of variability in validate time from sub 1 second to 3 or 4, however it was usually longer.
3 or 4 seconds to validate a ticket is too long on a bus or tram and probably seriously affects throughput on a gated station as well.

Myki as currently implemented will frustrate and annoy many users. The fact that the railways called in the police to do crowd control at Flinder St when they turned off the old magnetic system will give you some idea how well the implementation is going :-)
People have been hoarding the old Metcards - a system that when first introduced they all hated as well.

[Noodle]

Hello.

> The ticket inspectors are savage to any one found on a train
> or at an exit barrier who doesn't have a valid ticket on their person.
> It's assumed you were a barrier jumper and treated accordingly.

Actually, the Fines are a *LOT* less than NSW and they don't treat you that bad at all:

http://translate.google.com.au/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fclg-victor-hugo.scola.ac-paris.fr%2Fpedagogie%2Fdp3%2Fratp2.html

35 Euro's maximum =

$45 Australian dollars.

Not $220 like Railcorp Transit Officers give you.

Of course, the SDRO-equivalent in France then starts chasing you, if you do not pay, and the Fine rises accordingly.

And you can pay it "on the spot" with the French "Controlleur" (Transit Officer)!

[Noodle]

Hello.

> In Stockholm 1979 one only needed a "monthly" with your photo on it.
> These were randomly checked. Seemed to work did not see anyone without
> a valid ticket (I watched)

1) Swedish (Nordic, in general) people are a lot different to Australians and are far less multicultural than us (less Chinese, for instance, who have different ideas on how to make money & save money - by living 10 people to a room for instance - compared to Westerners). Very few people rip-off the (heavily-taxed) system in Sweden.

2) NSW Railcorp allows monthly tickets to be transferrable. Hence no photo.