How many times has the "Indian Pacific" derailed?
tramwayjohn
newsgroup on two matters. Those being, the fact that I offered him a
public appology, due to my mistaken belief that I was the only person
who took photos of the derailed IP in 1973, and suggesting that he
might like to consider doing an article for RD, using his fathers
photos and mine, of the said derailment.
Perhaps Andrew can explain why he hasn't responded to my message, via
this newsgroup, so that othe users of the group can be aware of what I
have said, and Andrews opinion on the idea of doing a article on the
derailment.
I have a simple question for users of this newsgroup. How many times
has the IP derailed? If the answer is ONCE, then isn't THAT a good
reason for a magazine, such as RD to publish the photos that were taken
by Andrews father and myself?
John Coyle
*******************************************************************
Andrew,
Think about what you have said. I always get annoyed when I see
something in the media that I know to be wrong. But, your fathers
photos were not published in any railway magazine, such as "Railway
Digest". Please correct me if I am wrong about that. Indeed, I would
like to be wrong, because they deserve to be published!
The incident took place over 30 years ago, and I had never seen another
photo taken of the derailed train, except for the ones that I took. Can
you really blame me for believing that I had in fact, taken the only
photos of the train?
Perhaps you can go onto aus.rail and say that we have discussed the
matter by E-Mail and that it is only reasonable that as I didn't SEE
any other person taking photos, it was fair to believe that my photos
were the only ones taken.
Although my slides are "somewhere" in my very large collection, I would
be prepared to get a couple out and have prints made, if you would like
to do a brief article for RD, using both your fathers photos and mine.
Having a photo of the diesels on the train, and color photos of the
carriages would help make the article more interesting to rail fans.
Just an idea, Andrew!
I will check aus.rail for your comments, now that I have done two
things.
Offered a public apology for incorrectly assuming that I took the only
photos of the derailed IP in 1973.
Offered to work with you in having the historic photos published in a
magazine such as RD, using your fathers and my photos of the incident.
Best regards,
John
shane...@austmg.com
To say you and even Andrew's dad are the only ones to take a photo of
the IP is a big call and most likley very very wrong. Think about it,
the railway operator probably took photos as part of the investigation,
the local media may have taken photos, even if they did not publish,
what the recovery guys etc etc...
However if the IP was in revenue service what I cannot understand and
honestly cannot believe you even stated you were the only photographer
in the first place. But about the passengers, surely a few of them
would have taken a few, again probably sitting at home going yellow in
a family album and never published.
You should have stated from the start, "likely to be the only person to
have photos published of the IP crash in 1973".
As for how many IP derailments have their been, does this include he IP
vs freighter of only a few years back?
Shane
tramwayjohn
we awaited the buses, I took the photos. I didn't see ANY other
passengers taking photos at all!
Plus, as I have said, I have NOT heard of any photos being published in
railway magazines, which is why I suggested to Andrew that HE contact
RD to see if they would be interested in doing an article on the
derailment.
The IP has been involved in the "rear ender" at Glenbrook, but I
haven't heard of any derailment of the train, other than the 1972
incident. That isn't to say that hasn't happended. Which is WHY I have
asked the question.
John Coyle
David Bromage
> Shane, all of the passengers were taken by bus into Broken Hill. While
> we awaited the buses, I took the photos. I didn't see ANY other
> passengers taking photos at all!
"I didn't see it, therefore it didn't happen."
Cheers
David
tramwayjohn
to see every person at the site at all times. But, as I have said, I
didn't see any other passengers taking photos.
Why carry on the debate on the matter, anyhow? Show me ONE ARTICLE in
ANY rail journal that has PUBLISHED any photos of the derailed train!
Come on David, accept the challenge! Read my messages with more care.
What do the words "Didn't see", mean? Did I say that nobody else took
any photos FOR SURE? No, I only said that I THINK that I was the only
peson who took photos. It turns out that one other person took some
photos. So what? I notice that Andrew is missing in action!
I simply asked the question, how many times has the IP derailed? Here
is a second question, would RD be interested in publishing the photos
IF no ther magazine has not done so? After all, it IS a bit of rail
history.
John Coyle
ro...@no.span.com
I quote selectively:
>
> I have a simple question for users of this newsgroup. How many times
> has the IP derailed? If the answer is ONCE, then isn't THAT a good
> reason for a magazine, such as RD to publish the photos that were taken
> by Andrews father and myself?
>
> John Coyle
Well I guess the 18th August 1999 head-on collision of
the IP with a standing freight at Zanthus on the Trans
Australian might qualify.
NR15 wacked NR51 when the Indian was "accidently" sent
into the crossing loop. Coach HM311 was bent like a
banana and not sitting on the rails all that well.!
....tell
DaveB
"tramwayjohn" <tramw...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1114479895.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> I simply asked the question, how many times has the IP derailed? Here
> is a second question, would RD be interested in publishing the photos
> IF no ther magazine has not done so? After all, it IS a bit of rail
> history.
>
> John Coyle
On the second question, why don't you ask RD? How would we know?
As a reader of RD, I wouldn't be particularly interested in derailment
pictures of the 1970s. It's stale news.
Regards
David Bennetts
shane...@austmg.com
for christs sake. Did you alight first and stand there watching
everyone like a hawk incase they took a photo, no. You even say it
yourself you were not watching everyone all the time. So its quite
possible that someone else may have taken a photo, including the media
and inspection team after you left. These photos may or maynot have
been published but without going through every journal or newspaper and
TV report we wouldn't know.
Howlong does it take to rattle off a couple of snaps, 10 sec?
Not every person on that train was a rail buff if other photos had been
taken, they are probably at home in the family album or long tossed
out.
I challenge you John to prove that only two people took photos in
total. You have already been proved wrong when you claimed you were the
ONLY photographer, hence you not Dave B have the lower credability and
its your claim.
I'm sure the old ANR records where ever they maybe have plenty of
pictures.
Shane
duffo21
somewhere. I think the truck may have run into the side of the train and
derailed a few carriages but I'm not 100% sure.
duffo21
jsh...@westpac.com.au
More detail. From www.atsb.gov.au
At 1706 hours on 18 August 1999 the Indian Pacific passenger train No.
3AP88, Adelaide to Perth, was inadvertently directed onto the loop line
at Zanthus where a freight train, No. 3PW4N, Perth to Whyalla was
standing and as a consequence a low speed collision occurred between
the two trains. The collision resulted in seventeen passengers and four
train crew members being conveyed to Kalgoorlie Hospital by the Royal
Flying Doctor, luggage/smoking lounge car HM311, on the Indian Pacific
passenger train derailing and sustaining extensive damage and
significant damage sustained to locomotives NR51, NR15 and passenger
coaches. The east west rail link at Zanthus was closed to train
operations until 1305 hours on August 19, 1999.
Big End
> I sent the following E-Mail to Andrew, asking him to comment at this
> newsgroup on two matters. Those being, the fact that I offered him a
> public appology, due to my mistaken belief that I was the only person
> who took photos of the derailed IP in 1973, and suggesting that he
> might like to consider doing an article for RD, using his fathers
> photos and mine, of the said derailment.
>
> Perhaps Andrew can explain why he hasn't responded to my message, via
> this newsgroup, so that othe users of the group can be aware of what I
> have said, and Andrews opinion on the idea of doing a article on the
> derailment.
>
hours a week, a house and two cars to maintain, and a 19 month baby
daughter which takes up the bulk of the remainder of his time.
> I have a simple question for users of this newsgroup. How many times
> has the IP derailed? If the answer is ONCE, then isn't THAT a good
> reason for a magazine, such as RD to publish the photos that were taken
> by Andrews father and myself?
The derailment to which you refer, is but one of many which involved
the Indian Pacific.
A far more spectacular derailment occurred on 23 January 1978 when No1
derailed at Daroobalgie (Between Parkes and Forbes). This derailment
was caused by a washaway on the line. The interesting thing is that
the train was diverted onto this route owing to flood waters over the
line at Nullungaloo. I also have several photos of this derailment.
The subsequent re railing and track repairs took six days to complete
owing to the amount and depth of the mud surrounding the line.
>
>
> *******************************************************************
>
>
> Andrew,
>
> Think about what you have said. I always get annoyed when I see
> something in the media that I know to be wrong. But, your fathers
> photos were not published in any railway magazine, such as "Railway
> Digest". Please correct me if I am wrong about that. Indeed, I would
> like to be wrong, because they deserve to be published!
Correct. To the best of my knowledge none of my fathers photo's were
ever published into the public forum, however, they undoubtedly wre
used as part of the official Investigation which either he, Jack
Marshall, or Jack Haley would have been tasked to carry out.
>
> The incident took place over 30 years ago, and I had never seen another
> photo taken of the derailed train, except for the ones that I took. Can
> you really blame me for believing that I had in fact, taken the only
> photos of the train?
A belief based on a false premise would be an assumption
>
> Perhaps you can go onto aus.rail and say that we have discussed the
> matter by E-Mail and that it is only reasonable that as I didn't SEE
> any other person taking photos, it was fair to believe that my photos
> were the only ones taken.
And why would I say that it was a reasonable assumption when I dont
think it was. (Was this a cash for comment offer, if so where's the
cash) Millions of photographs are taken by people every year. Very few
are ever published, in fact, of the 20,000 plus photographs in mine
and my fathers collections I can say with a fair degree of certanty
that only 3 have ever been published into public media.
I would never claim that any of these photographs are the only ones in
existance depicting the events captured in them. They may well be, but
you never really know who else was there with a camera. Although many
of them may well be as my father never took a photograph of a train in
regular operation. The majority of them are of one off events in which
he was involved in some way.
>
> Although my slides are "somewhere" in my very large collection, I would
> be prepared to get a couple out and have prints made, if you would like
> to do a brief article for RD, using both your fathers photos and mine.
> Having a photo of the diesels on the train, and color photos of the
> carriages would help make the article more interesting to rail fans. (Yawn)
>
It would be a very brief article at that as there was nothing unusual
regarding this derailment. The track spread under the train near the
Broken Hill Down Distant Signal. Nil fatalities. Minimal Damage. These
events were not uncommon, especially in those days. Article written.
It may well have been exciting for the passengers being disturbed by
the derailment of a train at the breakneck speed of 30mph, but thats
about as far as it goes.
A far more interesting article would be the Incidents and Accidents
involving the IP of which there are many, including the Head in the
Culvert, The Trida Mud Cod Debarkle, and of course the two accients to
which I have referred.
> Just an idea, Andrew!
>
> I will check aus.rail for your comments, now that I have done two
> things.
>
> Offered a public apology for incorrectly assuming that I took the only
> photos of the derailed IP in 1973.
Apology accepted.
Roger Jones
Parkes on the Forbes line. The truck driver died in the accident. From
memory two coaches on WL2 derailed at one end. There were few injuries, the
most significant being to rail crew who were returning pass' to Coota or
Junee.
Interesting that two of the most significant accidents/incidents involving
the IP in NSW happened on the Parkes - Forbes section, a stretch of line the
IP didn't normally traverse. (Andrew has already referred elsethread to the
Daroobalgie-Gidgeera derailment, which left one coach leaning at a a sharp
angle against an embankment)
I have photos of both of these and doubt that any more than a few dozen
other photographers also got shots.
Roger
"duffo21" <duf...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Egmbe.25191$5F3....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
tramwayjohn
involving the IP being hit head on and in the rear, I didn't know about
any other derailments. So, now that those incidents have been outlined,
the RD idea is out of the question!
Wow, Anfrew, you sure do have a huge photo collection! Although I have
no real idea of the total number of railway slides that I have, I
would think it would be at least 5,000. These days, I take very few
photos, and then they are prints, due the high cost of slides.
I am pleased that you have accepted my appology Andrew. I had no
intention of causing such a reaction by my comments about the issue of
who took photos of the derailed IP!
I hope that the matter is now closed, and we can all just enjoy
discussing our great hobby, railways! Life is too short to be upset by
any misunderstandings, such as the IP incident.
John Coyle
David Johnson
wrote:
>What a stupid response! I walked around taking photos and wasn't able
>to see every person at the site at all times. But, as I have said, I
>didn't see any other passengers taking photos.
You originally said you were the only person to take photos. Then you
jumped on a bus and went to Broken Hill while everybody else came and
took photos. You may well have been correct in stating that you were
the first to take photos, but you didn't say that.
> Here
>is a second question, would RD be interested in publishing the photos
>IF no ther magazine has not done so?
I love double negatives.
ro...@no.span.com
>
> More detail. From www.atsb.gov.au
>
I haven't checked that site, but a few years ago I
pulled a 1.7 MB PDF file with the complete report from;
http://www.transport.wa.gov.au/linking/pdfs/zanthus.pdf
....tell
Mark
>I have a simple question for users of this newsgroup. How many times
>has the IP derailed? If the answer is ONCE, then isn't THAT a good
>reason for a magazine, such as RD to publish the photos that were taken
>by Andrews father and myself?
How far back do you want to go? I recall when I lived in Broken Hill as
a kid in the 70's, it derailed at least twice within a few years. I
remember asking my dad "Why does the Indian Pacific always come off the
tracks?" when it happened the second time. Somewhere I have a clipping
from the "Barrier Miner" of people offloading baggage from the IP after
one of the derailments.
-Mark