Passenger Information Displays
Alex Borodin
Hi,
Just wondering what sort of thoughts ya'll have about
Passenger Information Displays, especially the Outdoor LED type
displays like they have in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth.
Does anyone have any comments about the usefulness of the
information being displayed on the signs? What sort of
information would YOU display on an LED sign if you were
given a free reign over the project? Imagine that you have
signs which are about 160cm long, 18cm high and can
display 42 characters across and two rows in height (each
char is 8cm high), or 14 characters across in a single row of
characters (each char is 18cm high. )
What sort of info would like to see on there? Imagine that
it's a busy station where trains can be platform-swapped
at any time. Passengers need to know if the train they
are waiting for is now scheduled to go off another
platform.
Are count-down clocks more useful for estimated departure
times than actual times? Do you need the current time on
the sign? Do you need the complete stopping pattern (as is
done in Sydney) or just something like "Express to Caboolture"
or "All Stations Caboolture"?
I want to hear all of your grips, complaints, suggestions,
comments, and kudos about all the different PIDS LED signs
you've ever come in contact with.
We're looking at developing a new system for Brisbane
and we want to make it as useful, reliable and simple to
understand as possible. I shall endeavour to reply to all
suggestions if you care to post your replies both to this
newsgroup and to my email address.
Thanks in advance for your input!
--
o Alex Borodin B.Eng(Hons) o Queensland Rail
o Software and Systems Engineer o Ph: +61-7-3235-2482
o Signal and Operational Systems o Fax:+61-7-3235-2747
"What you do is what you are. As a man thinketh, so he
becomes"
Malcolm Purvis
>>>>> "Alex" == Alex Borodin <alex.b...@qrail.com.au> writes:
Alex> Are count-down clocks more useful for estimated departure times than
Alex> actual times? Do you need the current time on the sign?
I find the combination very useful for working out how late I'm running :-)
More seriously, I'd say that both have their uses and should be included.
Alex> Do you need the complete stopping pattern (as is done in Sydney) or just
Alex> something like "Express to Caboolture" or "All Stations Caboolture"?
I'd prefer to have both, but if there can only be one then the complete
stopping pattern should be displayed. The reason is that while the regulars
easily know that "Express to Caboolture" stops that their station, others
(tourists, irregular users, people off their normal routes, and others the
rail system should be trying to attract) only know (hopefully!) the
destination they're trying to get to. The more positive reenforcement they
have that next train, or the train they are now on, does go to where they want
to the better. The shorter message should also be displayed so that the
regulars can tell in an instant that the next train is theirs, and the others
can learn the same shorthand too.
You learn a lot about the necessity of having lots of feedback when you try
and negotiate the Tokyo and Kyoto rail systems without a printed network map
and not being able to read any Japanese except Romanji!
--
Malcolm Purvis (malc...@abc.gov.au) - ABC Technology Research and Development
"Episcopalians [American Anglicans] will tell you astounding things about
their sexuality but not talk at all about their financial life."
--- Hugh Magers, Christianity Today, May 19, 1997, p23.
David Proctor
Alex Borodin wrote in message <34F61EB7...@qrail.com.au>...
>Hi,
>
>Just wondering what sort of thoughts ya'll have about
>Passenger Information Displays, especially the Outdoor LED type
>displays like they have in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth.
They seem to work fine, as long as they are well shielded from the sun.
>Does anyone have any comments about the usefulness of the
>information being displayed on the signs? What sort of
>information would YOU display on an LED sign if you were
>given a free reign over the project? Imagine that you have
>signs which are about 160cm long, 18cm high and can
>display 42 characters across and two rows in height (each
>char is 8cm high), or 14 characters across in a single row of
>characters (each char is 18cm high. )
The information on the Sydney signs is probably what is required, although a
change that may or may not be desirable would be to say "all stations to . .
. " rather than listing all the stations. It is quite frustrating to have to
wait for every stopping station to be listed if it has just gone past the
station you want (e.g. travelling from Hornsby to Cowan, and the train
stopping all stations to Newcastle - can take a while to get through it
all).
>What sort of info would like to see on there? Imagine that
>it's a busy station where trains can be platform-swapped
>at any time. Passengers need to know if the train they
>are waiting for is now scheduled to go off another
>platform.
As long as the information is kept up to date, and combined with PA
announcements, it should not be a problem.
>Are count-down clocks more useful for estimated departure
>times than actual times?
I believe that the scheduled departure time should be the time displayed, as
well as the estimated time (in minutes) until the arrival of the service.
The practice of some CityRail stations (Granville is notorious for it) of
amending the departure time to the expected departure time sucks. I arrived
at Granville to catch a Blue Mountains train one day, and the indicator said
the departure time was 10.45 - it was 10.36 at the time. I left the station
and went to the shop - the train came and went while I was gone - It was
actually the 10.25 running 20mins late, although it had picked up 6 minutes
time, and left at 10.39. I was not happy, and the station staff soon found
out about it.
> Do you need the current time on
>the sign?
Its a handy thing to have, in case someone's watch has stopped, or is
broken, or left at home, etc.
> Do you need the complete stopping pattern (as is
>done in Sydney) or just something like "Express to Caboolture"
>or "All Stations Caboolture"?
See above.
>We're looking at developing a new system for Brisbane
>and we want to make it as useful, reliable and simple to
>understand as possible. I shall endeavour to reply to all
>suggestions if you care to post your replies both to this
>newsgroup and to my email address.
I believe that the Sydney system is best, as far as concourse displays go,
as it makes it easy for passengers who are unfamiliar with the system to
easily locate a train to their desination, something which may be difficult
if you are not a regular traveller.
Regards
David Proctor
dap...@bigfoot.com
David Proctor
Malcolm Purvis wrote in message ...
>>>>>> "Alex" == Alex Borodin <alex.b...@qrail.com.au> writes:
>I'd prefer to have both, but if there can only be one then the complete
>stopping pattern should be displayed. The reason is that while the
regulars
>easily know that "Express to Caboolture" stops that their station, others
>(tourists, irregular users, people off their normal routes, and others the
>rail system should be trying to attract) only know (hopefully!) the
>destination they're trying to get to.
I agree - the term express should not be used, as it requires a knowledge of
the system and stopping patterns - although I believe that the term "all
stations to . . ." could be used.
Regards
David Proctor
dap...@bigfoot.com
David Johnson
Alex Borodin wrote:
> Do you need the complete stopping pattern (as is
> done in Sydney)
Definately not! The sign at Hurstville takes so long to go through all the
stations between Waterfall and Dapto that people reading the sign to see if the
train goes to their station delay the trains!
--
David Johnson
CityRail Guard
trai...@ozemail.com.au
http://www.ozemail.com.au/~trainman/
David Johnson
David Proctor wrote:
> I believe that the scheduled departure time should be the time displayed, as
> well as the estimated time (in minutes) until the arrival of the service.
> The practice of some CityRail stations (Granville is notorious for it) of
> amending the departure time to the expected departure time sucks. I arrived
> at Granville to catch a Blue Mountains train one day, and the indicator said
> the departure time was 10.45 - it was 10.36 at the time. I left the station
> and went to the shop - the train came and went while I was gone - It was
> actually the 10.25 running 20mins late, although it had picked up 6 minutes
> time, and left at 10.39. I was not happy, and the station staff soon found
> out about it.
The station staff have nothing whatsoever to do with the passenger information
at Granville. It is all run from the signal box. Abusing the station staff
will not be of any help.
David Proctor
David Johnson wrote in message <34F684C1...@ozemail.com.au>...
>The station staff have nothing whatsoever to do with the passenger
information
>at Granville. It is all run from the signal box. Abusing the station
staff
>will not be of any help.
I realise that - I did not abuse the station staff, but I DID ask why they
allowed the train to leave before the departure time stated on the indicator
board, and I also asked the Station Master why he allowed incorrect
information to be displayed on his indicators.
Regards
David Proctor
dap...@bigfoot.com
Simon Buxton
Hi,
As a normal user and not a rail expert, I would like to see a start with
very simple ideas used such as a printed timetable on platforms at all
stations. All too often one hurries to avoid missing a train at newer
stations where there is no next train display at the (or all) barriers
(e.g Town Hall {one barrier only} or Sydney Eastern Suburbs stations).
After arriving on the platform one then never knows how long to wait - I
assume the "time to next train" displays as used on the London
Underground are unlikely to be common in Sydney for a few years (I did
see one at Sydenham once).
Another gripe while I am at it, why can't North Sydney Station have a
conspicuous indicator at the barrier showing the next platform for the
City? Trains can leave from one of 3 platforms and the normal barrier
display does not reflect late running etc. I know it is good exercise
going to one platform then running to the other as a train comes in, but
not all passengers appreciate it.
Simon
Alex Borodin wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Just wondering what sort of thoughts ya'll have about
> Passenger Information Displays, especially the Outdoor LED type
> displays like they have in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth.
>
> Does anyone have any comments about the usefulness of the
> information being displayed on the signs? What sort of
> information would YOU display on an LED sign if you were
> given a free reign over the project? Imagine that you have
> signs which are about 160cm long, 18cm high and can
> display 42 characters across and two rows in height (each
> char is 8cm high), or 14 characters across in a single row of
> characters (each char is 18cm high. )
>
> What sort of info would like to see on there? Imagine that
> it's a busy station where trains can be platform-swapped
> at any time. Passengers need to know if the train they
> are waiting for is now scheduled to go off another
> platform.
>
> Are count-down clocks more useful for estimated departure
> times than actual times? Do you need the current time on
> the sign? Do you need the complete stopping pattern (as is
> done in Sydney) or just something like "Express to Caboolture"
> or "All Stations Caboolture"?
>
> I want to hear all of your grips, complaints, suggestions,
> comments, and kudos about all the different PIDS LED signs
> you've ever come in contact with.
>
> We're looking at developing a new system for Brisbane
> and we want to make it as useful, reliable and simple to
> understand as possible. I shall endeavour to reply to all
> suggestions if you care to post your replies both to this
> newsgroup and to my email address.
>
> Thanks in advance for your input!
>
> --
> o Alex Borodin B.Eng(Hons) o Queensland Rail
> o Software and Systems Engineer o Ph: +61-7-3235-2482
> o Signal and Operational Systems o Fax:+61-7-3235-2747
> "What you do is what you are. As a man thinketh, so he
> becomes"
--
/// Simon Buxton, Sydney, Australia \\\
/// Email : s...@zip.com.au \\\
/// Packet : vk2eii@vk2wi.#syd.nsw.aus.oc \\\
/// Web pages: <http://www.zip.com.au/~sb/w_hobby.htm> \\\
/// <http://www.zip.com.au/~sb/wars/wars1.htm> \\\
Peter MacKenzie
G'day
The problem of waiting for a 'lengthy' period to see if your stop is
listed occurs at most places eg Parramatta especially when a Gosford
service via the Shore is being displayed.
Perhaps an adaption of the Perth system is a good compromise as IIRC
they display something like 'Fremantle A' on the top line and the stops
scrolled on the bottom line. This means that regular travellers, rather
than regular users of a particular service, can see at a glance what the
stops will be. This, of course, does mean that a small number of
stopping patterns must be planned rather than the multitude that
CityRail seem to have.
Some other comments:
a) The entry indicators do not display stopping patterns, can they be
relied on to indicate the service that should arrive earliest at your
destination rather than one which will be overtaken enroute?
b) Handling of delays seem to vary between stations but the most common
I have seen is for 'Due In' to be at either 1 or 0 minutes for upto 10
minutes.
c) The destination is not always complete, eg 'Berowora via Town Hal'.
d) CityRail do not always list all the stations, for the services to
City via Bankstown from the west, Granville displays the stops to
Bankstown then all stations to.... whilst the top line displays
Bankstown as the destination.
e) From what I have seen at Parramatta, each display unit must have a
separate controller as they are not synchronised and appear to be able
to be rebooted individually.
f) They are not always reliable. A frequent display at Parramatta is for
one of the three PID's n platform 3 to show the destination to be City
via Bankstown with the station stops (from the previous train) of Harris
Park, Merrylands, Guildford .......etc
g) The ones I have most experience of are Granville and Parramatta and
they appear to be operated in different manners. (SB vs Station Staff?)
h) Why is it that when a train has been cancelled, it is sometimes not
until or after the scheduled departure time that any announcement is
made? Up until this time it is displayed on the PID's as normal. My most
recent example is the 17:58 Parramatta to City via Bankstown (originates
at Richmond) but was cancelled and started from Granville - surely
plenty of time was available to have not been displaying this train as
if all was normal until its scheduled time. I rarely trust Parramatta
and travel to Granville when services seem to be in disarray, their
advice quite often means a needless delay of upto 30 minutes or more.
i) When the PID's are operated by the Signal Box, who operates the
recorded pa as I have also seen/heard these contradicting each other.
Regards,
Peter MacKenzie
--------------------------
David Johnson wrote:
>
> Alex Borodin wrote:
>
> > Do you need the complete stopping pattern (as is
> > done in Sydney)
>
> Definately not! The sign at Hurstville takes so long to go through all the
> stations between Waterfall and Dapto that people reading the sign to see if the
> train goes to their station delay the trains!
>
Ashley Wright
On Fri, 27 Feb 1998 20:17:53 +1100, David Johnson
<trai...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>David Proctor wrote:
>
>
>The station staff have nothing whatsoever to do with the passenger information
>at Granville. It is all run from the signal box. Abusing the station staff
>will not be of any help.
>
At Parramatta today I (and many other people) were caught out by an
interesting problem with the indicator boards. On platform 3 the
western board was showing basicaly and all stations service to
Berowra, but the eastern sign was showing the next train (at the same
time) as being an express to Gordon (I think). The recorded voice
anouncment was calling the all stations service. However when the
train arrived and people boarded the gaurd told people to ignore the
station announcement and the train was the express. As I was going to
central I didn't care, however there were a number of people that got
off at Granville and went to sit down for the next (presumably all
stations) service!!
Now being a tech of sorts I would have thought that all signs on the
one platform (being identical) would have been feed with the same info
not different like at Paramatta.
Now as for the orginal post: What I need is what the next service
is, stopping pattern (listed in detail), current time, and scheduled
time due and actual time due (countdown like in Sydney is good). On
the last point the time for arrival should include any late running
and not be just a countdown till scheduled arrival time.
-------------------------------------------------------
| Ashley Wright, Sydney Australia |
| ajwr...@ozemail.com.au or |
| a.wr...@student.canberra.edu.au |
| |
| www: http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ajwright |
-------------------------------------------------------
David Johnson
Peter MacKenzie wrote:
> g) The ones I have most experience of are Granville and Parramatta and
> they appear to be operated in different manners. (SB vs Station Staff?)
Granville = SB Parramatta = Station Staff
> I rarely trust Parramatta
> and travel to Granville when services seem to be in disarray, their
> advice quite often means a needless delay of upto 30 minutes or more.
Granville has the SPI operator sitting next to the signaller, so information is very
easy to pass on.
> i) When the PID's are operated by the Signal Box, who operates the
> recorded pa as I have also seen/heard these contradicting each other.
In Blacktown signal box, they are operated from the same computer, and the
announcements are triggered by track circuits.
Translib Pty. Ltd.
Alex Borodin wrote:
> Does anyone have any comments about the usefulness of the
> information being displayed on the signs? What sort of
> information would YOU display on an LED sign if you were
> given a free reign over the project? Imagine that you have
> signs which are about 160cm long, 18cm high and can
> display 42 characters across and two rows in height (each
> char is 8cm high), or 14 characters across in a single row of
> characters (each char is 18cm high. )
The PIDS can only be useful if they are working properly. When PIDS was
installed at Glenferrie (Melbourne) a few year ago, there were many
problems, including some that are just simply outrageous:
* Platform PIDS displayed one thing, but the summary PIDS (located in
the subway) is showing something else. At one time, PIDS up on platform
1 is showing "Not Taking Passengers", while in the subway, it was
showing the correct information.
* PIDS showed info. that is one train behind! From memory, this problem
took sometime to sorted out, as it is related to the signalling matter.
Apparently, the information should change as the corresponding train
leave certain signal section.
Oh, it is better to have PIDS that can display variable length of
messages. For example, the bottom row of the PIDS can display a lot of
information by scrolling slowly. On the other hand, avoid using those
PIDS (like the summary one in the subway) that don't have scrolling
facility. Unfortunately, this is a problem for Glenferrie and other
Melbourne stations that have similar PIDS. For example: During
weekday, we have a "Super" express train to Belgrave (express Richmond -
Glenferrie - Camberwell - Box Hill - Blackburn - Mitcham - Ringwood -
Boronia - Upper Ferntree Gully - Belgrave), the summary PIDS (in the
subway) would show:
9:25 Belgrave (Blank - Suppose to show stopping
conditions) 3 (Fantastic!)
Other example of summary displays as follow:
5.05 Flinders Street Exp. Richmond 1
5.08 Flinders Street Stopping All Stations 1
5.04 Belgrave Limited Express 2 (suppose to be
Express Glenferrie - Camberwell - Box Hill)
5.06 Blackburn Stopping All Stations 3
(The top two rows are usually showing up trains, while the bottom two
are for down trains - though at times, I have seen bottom three rows
displaying down trains!)
A few weekends ago, staff working on the PIDS control at Camberwell
would have a some difficulties in showing stopping pattern of up trains
on the summary PIDS. Due to Jolimont Rationalisation Project, all up
trains stop all stations to Richmond, except East Richmond (normal). It
then stops at Melbourne Central, Spencer Street and Flinders Street
only. Well, the end result is:
10.46 City Loop Not Stop. Flagstaff 1
(Yes, it is true that the train would not stop at Flagstaff, but what
about East Richmond and Parliament? By the way, why pick Flagstaff
instead of the other two??)
> What sort of info would like to see on there? Imagine that
> it's a busy station where trains can be platform-swapped
> at any time. Passengers need to know if the train they
> are waiting for is now scheduled to go off another
> platform.
Yes, it will be useful, provides the travelling public is aware of the
last minute change. At few occasions, I see confused commuters walking
down the ramp and approach the booking office window query about the
"sudden disappearance" of their train. Obviously no announcement was
made at those occasions. The worse would have to be the last minute
platform change, from platform 2 to 3, or vice versa. I know at a few
occasions, my friends have to make announcement to tell drivers to wait
a little longer because there are many passengers still making their way
to the other platform!
> Are count-down clocks more useful for estimated departure
> times than actual times? Do you need the current time on
> the sign? Do you need the complete stopping pattern (as is
> done in Sydney) or just something like "Express to Caboolture"
> or "All Stations Caboolture"?
Count down clocks are useful, again provide they are working properly.
Talking about current time, does any one know when Glenferrie (and
Camberwell?) will receive its large digital clock, like those at other
premium stations? The only clock that is available at Glenferrie
(beside those inside the booking office) is a small classroom clock at
platform 3. Most people would not even realise it is there (don't know
whether it is still working though)! It is not wonder that many people
look into the booking office for time.
Cheers,
I.C.
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Australia Email: enq...@translib.com.au
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Adam Joyce
>Passengers need to know if the train they
> are waiting for is now scheduled to go off another
> platform.
> times than actual times? Do you need the current time on
> the sign? Do you need the complete stopping pattern (as is
> done in Sydney) or just something like "Express to Caboolture"
> or "All Stations Caboolture"?
Why buy and install expensive LED displays that can only display a small
amount of the above information, when for a far lower price (both
installation wise and maintenance) you can display almost ALL of that
information using a regular TV or monitor connected to the right computer
software. There are several monitors in the Adelaide station which give
patrons different information. Firstly, there is the screen displaying the
current time and a list of the closest scheduled departures with
corresponding platforms, ie:
Destination: Departs: Platform:
Gawler Central 2:35pm 8
Belair 2:38pm 2
Grange 2:46pm 6
Noarlunga 2:55pm 4
Brighton 3:00pm 5
This list fills the screen, and so contains times for up to 20 or so
trains. These monitors are placed on the main concourse as well as at
entrances for quick customer reference (you know, when you're running for
the train and you have to check what platform it's on).
Once customers know when their next train departs they can find the details
on the monitors for each destination, which are placed in the main
concourse. These monitors which have a different background colour for each
line, the line/destination in large print, as well as information such as
the stopping sequence, platform, scheduled and actual departure time and
whether there are any bus connections, ie:
BELAIR
PLATFORM 2
SCHEDULED DEPARTURE: 2:51pm
ACTUAL DEPARTURE: 2:51pm
Stopping at:
Mile End
Keswick
Express to Mitcham
Blackwood *
Eden Hills
Belair
* indicates connection for bus
The final monitors are those placed in front of and along each platform.
There are 2 monitors in front of each platform. The first tells the
customer the where the next train from that platform goes in large print,
and when it is scheduled and estimated to depart. The second monitor gives
the information for the particular train (ie stopping pattern etc.).
Essentially there are 3 displays on the monitors:
1) the overall listing of departures
2) the specific details for each train/line
3) the details for each platform
Whilst this may sound complicated, it is all interconnected and managed by
the same software. Although this may sound like a lot of monitors, the cost
of a lot of monitors compared to a lot of large LED displays comes out
favourably (doesn't it?).... unless of course you want to use big screen
TVs to give that full cinema effect. : )
Oh well, I like our system anyway. It's simple and quick to read, yet
supplies all the information you could possible need.
--
Adam Joyce
ad...@senet.com.au
http://www.home.aone.net.au/joyce/photo
(When replying by e-mail please remove "NoSpam_" from e-mail address)
Bill Bolton
On 1 Mar 1998 11:24:27 GMT, "Adam Joyce" <NoSpam...@senet.com.au>
wrote:
>Although this may sound like a lot of monitors, the cost of a lot
>of monitors compared to a lot of large LED displays comes out
>favourably (doesn't it?)
No, it doesn't, either in capital cost or maintenance.
Cheers,
Bill
Bill Bolton billb...@computer.org
Sydney, Australia
Peter Dwyer
>Why buy and install expensive LED displays that can only display a small
>amount of the above information, when for a far lower price (both
>installation wise and maintenance) you can display almost ALL of that
>information using a regular TV or monitor connected to the right computer
>software.
Because of young vandals. Leds would be far easier to replace and
probably more damage resistant. Once they found that monitors go off
with a bang none of them would survive.
Peter Dwyer
David Proctor
Adam Joyce wrote in message <01bd4341$f9261640$0100007f@mikej>...
>Why buy and install expensive LED displays that can only display a small
>amount of the above information, when for a far lower price (both
>installation wise and maintenance) you can display almost ALL of that
>information using a regular TV or monitor connected to the right >computer
software.
Because TV screens are more worse in unfavourable ambient light conditions
than LED screens - also one LED going 'kaput' will not render the whole
monitor unusable - one thingy (highly technical, isn't it?) doing the same
in a TV and the whole thing has to be replaced - witness the banks of TV
monitors at Sydney Terminal - it is very rare to see all 21 on the main
board working at the same time.
> There are several monitors in the Adelaide station which give
>patrons different information. Firstly, there is the screen displaying the
>current time and a list of the closest scheduled departures with
>corresponding platforms, ie:
>
>Destination: Departs: Platform:
>Gawler Central 2:35pm 8
>Belair 2:38pm 2
>Grange 2:46pm 6
>Noarlunga 2:55pm 4
>Brighton 3:00pm 5
>
>This list fills the screen, and so contains times for up to 20 or so
>trains. These monitors are placed on the main concourse as well as at
>entrances for quick customer reference (you know, when you're running for
>the train and you have to check what platform it's on).
This is alright for somewhere like Adelaide, but what about a city with a
far larger system, and infinitely more stopping patterns - the South Coast
line in NSW, for example, has trains stopping just about all stations to
Dapto every second hour - every other hour is an express - with the system
used in Adelaide, you would not be able to tell from the main indicator if
the train is a stopper or an express.
>Once customers know when their next train departs they can find the details
>on the monitors for each destination, which are placed in the main
>concourse. These monitors which have a different background colour for each
>line,
I agree with this - this could easily be done in Sydney (I have spoken to
the programmers - they assure me it can be done, so it MUST be impossible
:-p) Use a red background for Mental (oops, THAT typo again - Central) Coast
services, green for Southern Highlands (all four of them), blue for South
Coast, and a black background with yellow type for the west (a yellow
blackground would be too icky, i think). A different colour could be used
for Countrylink services.
This would have the advantage of allowing commuters to, say Gosford, just
look at the red screens, and would allow them to easily locate their
service.
<Big Snip of reaaly interesting stuff>
Regards
David Proctor
dap...@bigfoot.com
Geoff Lambert
Simon Buxton <s...@zip.com.au> wrote:
>Hi,
>Another gripe while I am at it, why can't North Sydney Station have a
>conspicuous indicator at the barrier showing the next platform for the
>City? Trains can leave from one of 3 platforms and the normal barrier
>display does not reflect late running etc. I know it is good exercise
>going to one platform then running to the other as a train comes in, but
>not all passengers appreciate it.
>Simon
There is a display like this at Circular Quay, for people who want to
get to Central/Redfern on the next available train. However, apart
from a day or two after it was introduced some years ago, it never
seems to have been used or else it has never worked properly. Just
like North Sydney, we all dash up and down the stairs if we make the
wrong decision on which platform to choose.
Geoff Lambert
Geoff Lambert
Alex Borodin <alex.b...@qrail.com.au> wrote:
>Hi,
>Just wondering what sort of thoughts ya'll have about
>Passenger Information Displays, especially the Outdoor LED type
>displays like they have in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth.
>I want to hear all of your gripes, complaints, suggestions,
>comments, and kudos about all the different PIDS LED signs
>you've ever come in contact with.
It is worth thinking about colour and catering for colour-vision
impaired people- a significant proportion of the population. The old
style train indicators on the City Circle in Sydney, which had a white
indicator light beside each station name to indicate that a train
stopped there, were haphazardly replaced some years ago by newer
versions that had a red light instead. A railfan friend of mine said
that, for him, the lights effectively disappeared and could not be
distinguished from positions that had the light extinguished.
Two other points worth thinking about, especially for determining the
stopping pattern
* Apart from the colour problem (above), the system used on many City
Circle indicator boards seems to work quite well. Once one knows the
general layout of the boards at one's stations, it is easy to see at a
single glance, whether the next train has your desired stopping
pattern. There's no need to actually read the station names beside
the lights at all. I would reckon the time for pattern recognition is
much shorter this way. There are a couple of problems, though.
First, to accomodate all the station names, the signs must be rather
large, especially in the vertical direction- you need a high ceiling
to hang them from. Second, being linear in nature, they are not
really very suited to a complex network that has many nodes and
alternative routes. Which leads me to the suggestion (I don't know
whether anyone has tried it) to make an equivalent sign, but one in
which the linear strip of names is substituted by the system map, with
lights lighting up at the stations that are to be called at- rather
like an illuminated track diagram in reverse. For trains travelling
on circular routes, some form of directional indicator would be a
useful adjunct.
* I have always been imprerssed by the amazing LCD displays they have
at Spencer St, they must be the biggest LCD displays in the world....
each "letter" box is the size, shape and appearance of a ceramic tile.
Of course, they require an external light source (but they work well
in daylight (?), but being black and white, they obviate the colour
vision problem.
Geoff Lambert
Alex Borodin
> >
> >Just wondering what sort of thoughts ya'll have about
> >Passenger Information Displays, especially the Outdoor LED type
> >displays like they have in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth.
>
Do you find that the character size is ok?
> The information on the Sydney signs is probably what is required, although a
> change that may or may not be desirable would be to say "all stations to . .
> . " rather than listing all the stations. It is quite frustrating to have to
> wait for every stopping station to be listed if it has just gone past the
> station you want (e.g. travelling from Hornsby to Cowan, and the train
> stopping all stations to Newcastle - can take a while to get through it
> all).
Ok. What about express services? Do you think that all of
the stations in the stopping pattern should be shown, or do
you think that a list of express sections like "Express Sth Brisbane
to Beenleigh, Beenleigh to Gold Coast" would be fine?
> >Are count-down clocks more useful for estimated departure
> >times than actual times?
>
> I believe that the scheduled departure time should be the time displayed, as
> well as the estimated time (in minutes) until the arrival of the service.
> The practice of some CityRail stations (Granville is notorious for it) of
> amending the departure time to the expected departure time sucks. I arrived
> at Granville to catch a Blue Mountains train one day, and the indicator said
> the departure time was 10.45 - it was 10.36 at the time. I left the station
> and went to the shop - the train came and went while I was gone - It was
> actually the 10.25 running 20mins late, although it had picked up 6 minutes
> time, and left at 10.39. I was not happy, and the station staff soon found
> out about it.
Yeah, I see what you mean. So if the train is running late, then
passengers
need some way of knowing that although PIDS estimates it to be arriving
in 10minutes, it's actually late and could arrive anytime.
Ok.. good point.
> > Do you need the current time on
> >the sign?
>
> Its a handy thing to have, in case someone's watch has stopped, or is
> broken, or left at home, etc.
Ok.
> >We're looking at developing a new system for Brisbane
> >and we want to make it as useful, reliable and simple to
> >understand as possible. I shall endeavour to reply to all
> >suggestions if you care to post your replies both to this
> >newsgroup and to my email address.
>
> I believe that the Sydney system is best, as far as concourse displays go,
> as it makes it easy for passengers who are unfamiliar with the system to
> easily locate a train to their desination, something which may be difficult
> if you are not a regular traveller.
It's interesting also how it shows the next FASTEST train to each
destination.
We don't have quite that amount of space for our concourse
displays, nor that many destinations.
David Penna
Alex Borodin wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Just wondering what sort of thoughts ya'll have about
> Passenger Information Displays, especially the Outdoor LED type
> displays like they have in Sydney, Melbourne and Perth.
>
I was relieved when the LED displays started popping up around Sydney. They are
definitely helpful - although they probably reduce fitness levels as they reduce the
need to madly dash up and down platform ramps.
LED type screens seem to be more suited to suburban stations. I think in the city
stations, Melbourne's TV monitor system works better, with monitors dedicated to
each line (definitely better than the indicator boards at Town Hall or Central in
Sydney)
At stations where there is only one line it is 'nice' to have a count-down to actual
departure time (as well as the scheduled time) so we know whether we have time to pop
down the road to a shop or whatever. At busier stations (such as Parramatta, Granville
etc) where there are multiple lines/express services the count-down is almost essential
- so the passenger knows which train will (supposedly) get them to their destination
quicker.
At quieter stations - such as East Richmond in Melbourne - I find that the 'green
button' is enough - where you press a button, and a voice tells you the next train and
its departure time.
As far as info on the LED indicators, if the train stops all stations - then I think
'All stations to ......" will do as long as there is a LARGE EASILY READABLE list of
stations nearby. For limited stop services, a listing of all stopping stations is
probably more useful.
Hope these comments are useful
Alex Borodin
Adam Joyce wrote:
>
> >Passengers need to know if the train they
> > are waiting for is now scheduled to go off another
> > platform.
> > the sign? Do you need the complete stopping pattern (as is
> > done in Sydney) or just something like "Express to Caboolture"
> > or "All Stations Caboolture"?
>
> amount of the above information, when for a far lower price (both
> installation wise and maintenance) you can display almost ALL of that
> information using a regular TV or monitor connected to the right computer
> patrons different information. Firstly, there is the screen displaying the
> current time and a list of the closest scheduled departures with
> Whilst this may sound complicated, it is all interconnected and managed by
> of a lot of monitors compared to a lot of large LED displays comes out
> TVs to give that full cinema effect. : )
> Oh well, I like our system anyway. It's simple and quick to read, yet
> supplies all the information you could possible need.
Thanks for your reply Adam and you have got a good point about using
CRT monitors instead of LEDs. We already have three inner city stations
(soon to be 4) which use this technology very successfully. We love it,
actually, but it's not real useful when you want to show information
at remote stations in full sunlight and weather conditions, and
where there is a vandalism problem.
LED's are available these days which can show in full sunlight, which
are weatherproof, vandalproof and which are so reliable that they
hardly need touching.
Apart from that, you're right, CRT's are great.
Alex Borodin
Thanks for your reply Geoff.
Geoff Lambert wrote:
> It is worth thinking about colour and catering for colour-vision
> impaired people- a significant proportion of the population. The old
> style train indicators on the City Circle in Sydney, which had a white
> indicator light beside each station name to indicate that a train
> stopped there, were haphazardly replaced some years ago by newer
This is indeed a problem. Unfortunately, most of the cost-effective
LED displays which can be used outdoors are Red only. There are
Amber ones, but they are a good deal more expensive.
> * I have always been imprerssed by the amazing LCD displays they have
> at Spencer St, they must be the biggest LCD displays in the world....
> each "letter" box is the size, shape and appearance of a ceramic tile.
> Of course, they require an external light source (but they work well
> in daylight (?), but being black and white, they obviate the colour
> vision problem.
These are actually not LCD's, they are alcohol/water with some
other chemicals for the colouring. They are very expensive
beasts, and I'm not sure how the chemical dyes would stand up
to the constant Queensland sunshine beating down on them.
But they are impressive, I have to agree.
Alex Borodin
Thanks for your reply!
TB wrote:
> The LED style in Sydney is ideal for suburban and inter-urban stations.
> The monitor/screen-style PIDS at Brisbane's Central, Roma St and B'wick St
> stations are the best I have seen, especially after they were changed to
> the current style with the "Next train ---" features.
:-) Thanks.. It's such a relief to hear something GOOD about our
systems for a change!
> >Does anyone have any comments about the usefulness of the
> >information being displayed on the signs? What sort of
> >information would YOU display on an LED sign if you were
> >given a free reign over the project? Imagine that you have
> >signs which are about 160cm long, 18cm high and can
> >display 42 characters across and two rows in height (each
> >char is 8cm high), or 14 characters across in a single row of
> >characters (each char is 18cm high. )
>
> The details on Sydney's LED dispays are just right -- too much information
> thrown at a passenger causes confusion, and he/she is then more likely to
> walk away and use their car or another form of transport.
Ok.. noted.
> >Do you need the current time on the sign?
>
> Absolutely! If not possible, some other form of time display is essential!
Noted.
> >Do you need the complete stopping pattern (as is
> >done in Sydney) or just something like "Express to Caboolture"
> >or "All Stations Caboolture"?
>
> There are new, first-time passengers every day. Never assume everyone
> knows where wherever is. Station listing is essential.
> >I want to hear all of your grips, complaints, suggestions,
> >comments, and kudos about all the different PIDS LED signs
> >you've ever come in contact with.
>
> Keep the information displayed correct and up-to-date!
>
> A bad example is like showing the 16:55 Gold Coast train as having an ETD
> of past 18:00... flashing (meaning it's at the station) at 17:20, like at
> Bne Central last week! :-) Passengers naturally get confused, and it is
> also an appalling display of on-time running and punctuality, even if it
> was an error.
:-(
Sometimes, there are problems with our timetable, especially
if there has recently been a major timetable rework. These problems
are set to change as our PIDS will become integrated with the timetable
generation and capture proving system via the Timetable Distribution
System (TDS). TDS will mean that all timetables across all QR
information
systems will be guaranteed to be consistent. At present, all timetables
are manually updated by us. Sometimes we make mistakes (and thereby
appall our passengers :)
All that should start to change after July.
> >We're looking at developing a new system for Brisbane
> >and we want to make it as useful, reliable and simple to
> >understand as possible.
>
> Keep the PIDS screens in inner-city Brisbane! Use Sydney's LEDs style at
> suburban stations. Brisbane's inner-city stations are the best (in my
> mind) for passenger information displays. Sydney Central's
> (electric/CityRail) are shocking (out-dated, hard to understand, and not
> easy to find or read at the ticket barrier area)!
We aren't going to get rid of the CRT screen system. Actually,
we're planning to expand it to Toowong as well. Unfortunately
we can't use CRT monitors in outdoor situations and where ambient
light is high. LED's are the only practical solution in such situations
(apart from flip-dots which are easier to read in bright sunlight,
but a bit more expensive and slightly less reliable.)
> On the other hand, work on the Citytrain station announcements is
> definitely required, even if recently redone! Use Sydney's CityRail
> announcements as a benchmark, and have them at Central, Roma St and B'wick
> St!
What precisely do you believe would be required of such a system?
What do you feel is wrong with the QR system?
Cheers,
den...@cai.com
In article <34FA36C5...@qrail.com.au>,
Alex Borodin <alex.b...@qrail.com.au> wrote:
>
> Thanks for your reply Geoff.
>
> Geoff Lambert wrote:
>
> > It is worth thinking about colour and catering for colour-vision
> > impaired people- a significant proportion of the population. The old
> > style train indicators on the City Circle in Sydney, which had a white
> > indicator light beside each station name to indicate that a train
> > stopped there, were haphazardly replaced some years ago by newer
>
> This is indeed a problem. Unfortunately, most of the cost-effective
> LED displays which can be used outdoors are Red only. There are
> Amber ones, but they are a good deal more expensive.
>
light signal indications at a distance) I have absolutely no difficulty
reading LED displays. The difficulty is mixing red/green/grey which all
appear similar. Red on a black background is fine for me.
Cheers, John Dennis
-----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==-----
http://www.dejanews.com/ Now offering spam-free web-based newsreading
David Johnson
Geoff Lambert wrote:
> Which leads me to the suggestion (I don't know
> whether anyone has tried it) to make an equivalent sign, but one in
> which the linear strip of names is substituted by the system map, with
> lights lighting up at the stations that are to be called at- rather
> like an illuminated track diagram in reverse. For trains travelling
> on circular routes, some form of directional indicator would be a
> useful adjunct.
There is one of these at Minto. It shows weather the train goes via East Hills,
Regents Park or Granville.
David Johnson
Geoff Lambert wrote:
> There is a display like this at Circular Quay, for people who want to
> get to Central/Redfern on the next available train. However, apart
> from a day or two after it was introduced some years ago, it never
> seems to have been used or else it has never worked properly. Just
> like North Sydney, we all dash up and down the stairs if we make the
> wrong decision on which platform to choose.
The displays at Circular Quay have worked every time I have been there. They
flash as a train is approaching.
There are similar displays at Wynyard, showing the next train to Town Hall /
Central and also at Town Hall shoing a) next train to Central, and b) next train
to Wynyard.
These displays all work off the track circuits. It is not as easy at North
Sydney to set up, because trains stored in the tunnels would trigger the
circuits. I would say the best way to set North Sydney up would be to connect
an indicator light to illuminate upon clearance of the starting signals, but
this may not always provide enough time for passengers to get down the stairs.
David Johnson
Alex Borodin wrote:
> Ok. What about express services? Do you think that all of
> the stations in the stopping pattern should be shown, or do
> you think that a list of express sections like "Express Sth Brisbane
> to Beenleigh, Beenleigh to Gold Coast" would be fine?
How about "All stations to South Brisbane, then Beenleigh and then all stations to
Nerang"
Geoff Lambert
David Johnson <trai...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
>Geoff Lambert wrote:
>> There is a display like this at Circular Quay, for people who want to
>> get to Central/Redfern on the next available train. However, apart
>> from a day or two after it was introduced some years ago, it never
>> seems to have been used or else it has never worked properly. Just
>> like North Sydney, we all dash up and down the stairs if we make the
>> wrong decision on which platform to choose.
>The displays at Circular Quay have worked every time I have been there. They
>flash as a train is approaching.
Now that's an interesting thing- I've never seen them working. There
was no indication on them last night for instance, although a train
was standing at the platform.
Perhaps you are meant to linger at the foot of the stairs until the
rumble of an approaching train is heard and only then will they light
up and only then can you make your mad dash?....but then you don't
need the lights anyway, you can tell by the sound! I would have
thought they ought to be set more in advance than that, so that plenty
of warning could be given, especially in off-peak periods where the
interval may be 10 minutes or so. How long before the train actually
pulls in do the lights come on? I seem to recall that the travel time
to Central either way is 6 min, so presumably the "next train" always
gets you to Central faster than the "next but one"?
And, while we're talking about Circular Quay, it has always seemed to
me that the "number of cars" light on the indicator board is never
used at Circular Quay (at this place in particular). Consequently,
when a 4- or 6-car train pulls up, there is a great converging rush
from the ends of the platform by people who have strung themselves out
along its length expecting an 8-car train. I questioned the attendant
once as to why they never bothered to indicate the number of cars and
she said "nobody knows" (nobody knows how many cars are on a train
until it appears, she presumably meant). The WTT contains this
information, though.
Geoff Lambert
David Johnson
Geoff Lambert wrote:
> Now that's an interesting thing- I've never seen them working. There
> was no indication on them last night for instance, although a train
> was standing at the platform.
It will not flash while a train is at the platform. This is a deliberate attempt
to stop people racing up the escalators and diving on to a departing train. The
indicator for the City Inner platform starts flashing as the train leaves St
James, giving 3 minutes warning of an approaching train. The indicator for the
City Outer starts flashing as the train leaves Wynyard, giving 2 minutes warning.
There is ample time on both to wait at the bottom until one starts flashing.
I have always been curious as to the wording of the indicators. They say "Next
train to Central". When there are two trains approaching, they both say that the
next train is off that platform.
Albert Alcoceba
In the message about Passenger Informatio*****, from G.LA...@UNSW.EDU.AU to ALL!, G.LA...@UNSW.EDU.AU said:"
GG> Which leads me to the suggestion (I don't know
GG> whether anyone has tried it) to make an equivalent sign, but one in
GG> which the linear strip of names is substituted by the system map, with
GG> lights lighting up at the stations that are to be called at- rather
GG> like an illuminated track diagram in reverse. For trains travelling
GG> on circular routes, some form of directional indicator would be a
GG> useful adjunct.
I do recall precisely this system being in use at Leumeah station on the Up
platform (Main South, Sydney) a few years back. With directional arrows on the map
indicating whether the train went via Granville, Regents Park or East Hills
and the direction of travel around the City Circle.
Regards,
Albert.
* RM 1.31 * Albert! alb...@zip.com.au http://www.zip.com.au/~alberta/
Albert Alcoceba
In the message about Passenger Informatio*****, from DJP...@ONE.NET.AU to ALL!, DJP...@ONE.NET.AU said:"
DD> I was relieved when the LED displays started popping up around Sydney. They are
DD> definitely helpful - although they probably reduce fitness levels as they reduce the
DD> need to madly dash up and down platform ramps.
Isn't it interesting that Redfern, one of Sydney's largest and busiest
stations, still relies on the old metal painted pull down signs on the
platforms and the old wooden rotating block indicators on the concourse.
You'd think that Redfern would have been one with the highest priority.
Similarly for say, Platform 3 at Strathfield.