Austrains Pullman Cars?
Bob
On a similar note to my previous posting I ask the question, What era if
any ,does the tuscan pullman car represent. The red and cream is obvious
but the tuscan has me wondering. These cars (CBC) were built by the
NSWGR in 1937. What livery would have been applied at new? Cars 1089 and
1090 were transferad to vintage train duties in March 1962. I assume
this is when the "Blood and Custard " was applied., so where does the
tuscan era fit in???
Allan Brown
Three CBC cars, 1088 - 1090 were built in 1902, along with three CFXs,
1091 - 1093. the "blood and custard" cars Bob refers to were the X class
of cars, converted in 1937 from stock originally constructed around
1902. These cars were coded CVX-BVX-RHX-FVX, painted red and cream, and
so marshalled for use on the ICE (Inter City Express) and NCL (Northern
Commercial Limited) sets, between Sydney and Newcastle.
The cars in these three sets, whilst having externally similar
appearances to the CBCs, differed considerably in their window
arrangements. Modellers using the Austrains "blood and custard" Pullman
cars to represent the NCL sets do so with 'tongue in cheek'. They are
the wrong cars.
Chapter 5 of Len Clark's "Passenger Cars of the NSWR" covers the Pullman
cars in some detail.
Cheers,
Allan
geoff
Bob wrote:
> On a similar note to my previous posting I ask the question, What era if
> any ,does the tuscan pullman car represent. The red and cream is obvious
> but the tuscan has me wondering. These cars (CBC) were built by the
> NSWGR in 1937. What livery would have been applied at new? Cars 1089 and
> 1090 were transferad to vintage train duties in March 1962. I assume
> this is when the "Blood and Custard " was applied., so where does the
> tuscan era fit in???
Bob
The CBC/CFX cars (CBC 1088-1090 and CFX 1091-1093) were built by the Rwys
in 1902 (ref Len Clark's Passenger Cars of the NSWGR, page 49).
The HX was originally built as AD 1006 (sleeper) in 1899-1900, converted to
observation car BAM 2 in 1934, then again altered to a cetre aisle tourist
car and coded HX in 1943.
So where did the built date of 1937 come from?
Regarding the red and cream livery, some cars may well have carried this
livery at least twice in their lives. Refer pic on page 35, in "36" by John
Thompson, at the bottom of the page is a shot of the ICE crossing the NCL
at Hornsby c.1935. At the right hand side of the pic is Pullman car #1089
(a CBC) in what appears to be the red and cream livery of the day.
According to Len's book the ICE/NCL sets for these cars were vestibule cars
CVX-BVX-RHX-FVX, but as far as I can ascertain 1089 was always an open
end-platforn car (ie no vestibules). Then of course the cars used for the
vintage train were painted red and cream in the 60s.
So therefore 1089 may well have had carried the red and cream livery twice
in its lifetime. The cars would have carried the various liveries of the
day from 1902 to 1960.
The HX would probably only have been, tuscan and russet when altered to
this code in 1943, and some of the various changes in livery up to its
inclusion in the vintage train of the 60s.
The published information of these cars is not all that conclusive and
perhaps a definitive history will be in the much-awaited Passenger Car
Book.
Cheers
Geoff
Bob
geoff wrote:
The 1937 date is a mistake in my bookwork. This date refers to a
conversion, my reference says "COMPO" which I think means it became a
composite car. Any clues on this guys?
Bob
geoff
Bob wrote:
> The 1937 date is a mistake in my bookwork. This date refers to a
> conversion, my reference says "COMPO" which I think means it became a
> composite car. Any clues on this guys?
> Bob
There is a rather muddy pic of CBC 1090 in Len's book (undated of course
:-) ), showing it as a composite, i.e. one end is lettered second and the
other is lettered first. It appears to have a fine buff(?) line above the
windows, but can't tell if there is one below the window sills.
I've never understood the codes for these cars, as if what Len says is true
CBC was a first class car and CFX was a second class car, and the
abovementioned pix shows a car letter for both cars and coded CBC?????
Furthermore I seem to remember seeing/reading somewhere that the cars as
built had two windows per compartment and ONE crown light over each of the
2 windows! The abovementioned pic shows the car as having separate crown
lights for each window.
Any comments anyone?
BTW: I haven't seen the Austrains models.
Geoff
Ceridwen Jones
Bob wrote:
> On a similar note to my previous posting I ask the question, What era if
> any ,does the tuscan pullman car represent. The red and cream is obvious
> but the tuscan has me wondering. These cars (CBC) were built by the
> NSWGR in 1937. What livery would have been applied at new? Cars 1089 and
> 1090 were transferad to vintage train duties in March 1962. I assume
> this is when the "Blood and Custard " was applied., so where does the
> tuscan era fit in???
First of all the Pullman car liveries as portrayed on the models;
Red and Cream-This portrays the two CBCs and the HX as they were painted in
the early sixties for vintage train use, when they were still independent
cars. i.e. before they were permanently coupled into the Vintage set and
repainted into what was probably their original livery in the late sixties.
This livery has considerable differences to the red and cream livery carried
by the Newcastle carsets in the 30s, more latter.
Lined Tuscan Red-This livery is correct only for the HX. The CBCs went
straight from tuscan and russet to unlined red when they were repainted in
the late 50s/early 60s. A colour photo of the HX in this livery is on P18
of Steam in the Sixties (RTM, 1994), don't be misled, the other two cars in
the train are a VAM and an EAM, not the CBCs. I have seen photos of the two
unlined CBCs and the lined HX on a tour somewhere but I cant find it at the
moment.
Conclusions:
Red and Cream cars correct for Vintage Train from 1962 to repaint, close
coupling and recodeing in late 60s. Not correct for Newcastle expresses of
1930s, different codes and different styles of red and cream.
Lined Tuscan Red CBCs not correct for anything. Can be altered to
prototypical appearance for period late 50s to 1962 by overpainting or
removing cream line. At least one CBC was still in Tuscan and Russet in
1961, as it was used on the ARHS tour to the west on 10-12/3/61. There is a
photo of this tour in one of the old RTM calendars.
Lined Tuscan Red HX. This one is OK for late fifties to 1962.
The CBCs and HX were still in use as independent cars at this stage and were
used in various combinations on tours and singly to strengthen ordinary
trains.
Pullman Car livery timeline:
When built till 1920s-Lining style as per Vintage cars pre most recent
repaint. Colour being debated, but probably a shade of red not far distant
from as restored.
Some of the Sleeping cars may have been painted Purple Brown with full
lining out.
1920s to just postwar(except Newcastle Express cars)-Fully lined Russet and
Tuscan Red. Fully lined means fine (yellow, buff, gold?) lines around every
panel (see P54 of Len Clark's passenger car book for a pullman in this
style, though not in Tuscan and Russet). I have seen some official railway
(b&w) photos that show this style quite clearly, though I don't think any of
them have been published.
1946 till first repaint after 1954- Tuscan and Russet, simple lined.
Then as set out above in notes on model.
Red and Cream- There have actually been three styles of red and cream. The
original can be seen quite clearly in the photo on P35 of the 36 book (John
B Thompson, RTM, 1988). This was fully lined, had red above the windows,
and had (probably) red window frames. About 1936 they were repainted and
the lining was left off, but they still had red above the windows, and the
window frames may have been red or cream, this is still unclear. See the
colour photo on P3 of the 36 class book. This livery apparently lasted till
they were repainted during or just after the war. Then there was the
Vintage Train livery of the sixties that had the cream all the way to the
roof, as per the Austrains models.
As an aside, David Cooke tells me that the livery currently carried by the
Vintage Cars, while a good interpretation of Purple Brown, was never
actually carried by the CBCs, though the HX, when it was still a Sleeping
Car, would probably have carried this livery.
Livery notes from information supplied by John Beckhaus, David Cooke and
various published and unpublished photos.
Ceridwen Jones
James McInerney wrote:
>
>
> 1920s to just postwar(except Newcastle Express cars)-Fully lined Russet and
> Tuscan Red. Fully lined means fine (yellow, buff, gold?) lines around every
> panel (see P54 of Len Clark's passenger car book for a pullman in this
> style, though not in Tuscan and Russet). I have seen some official railway
> (b&w) photos that show this style quite clearly, though I don't think any of
> them have been published.
>
> 1946 till first repaint after 1954- Tuscan and Russet, simple lined.
>
Further on this (forgot to include it in previous posting).
I painted a sample CBC for John in simple Tuscan and Russet on one side and
fully lined Russet and Tuscan Red on the other. Ask him to show it to you when
you see him and tell him that's how we want the next batch (one or the other
obviously!). James.
Ceridwen Jones
geoff wrote:
>
>
> Regarding the red and cream livery, some cars may well have carried this
> livery at least twice in their lives. Refer pic on page 35, in "36" by John
> Thompson, at the bottom of the page is a shot of the ICE crossing the NCL
> at Hornsby c.1935. At the right hand side of the pic is Pullman car #1089
> (a CBC) in what appears to be the red and cream livery of the day.
> According to Len's book the ICE/NCL sets for these cars were vestibule cars
> CVX-BVX-RHX-FVX, but as far as I can ascertain 1089 was always an open
> end-platforn car (ie no vestibules). Then of course the cars used for the
> vintage train were painted red and cream in the 60s.
>
Some of the independent cars were painted to match the
ICE/NCL sets, and used
for strengthening purposes. If you look at the colour photo
on P3 you will see
a 4 car set with a CBC at each end. James.
>
>
>
geoff
Ceridwen Jones wrote:
Further to the above and previous I have just been lent a sample of the HX and
CBC cars. Impressive BUT!
After comparing the model with Data Sheets plans I see a problem with the CBC. The
space between the windows which would have been the compartment walls, as they
were built as side-corridor compartment cars, is the same size/width. However the
Data sheet plans show that the first space between the windows on each end is
narrower than the rest. There are excellent pix of CBC 1090 before and after
restoration in Roundhouse October 95, page 33.
The model as supplied represents these cars in the period from ??-1968 as there
are no windows in the clerestories. Does anyone know when the windows in the
clerestories was removed?
BTW: published photods of these cars are somewhat hard, but those I've seen show
that some cars had buffing plates instead of buffers. As always find a photo of
the period you want and model from that!
The HX has minor differences between the plan and the model, but who cares!
What about kit-bashing an HX into an AL. Have a side elevation only of AL 1040 and
it looks near enough!! For pic of AL 1040 at Canberra (rather what's left of it)
see carriage page on my new web site as follows:
http://members.tripod.com/~alcohead/index.html
Cheers
Geoff
Eben Levy
geoff wrote:
BE warned, do not enter this site without and i'll repeat without sun glasses on.
Could you please do someting about the colours?
--
Bye for now,
Eben
Ceridwen Jones
geoff wrote:
> After comparing the model with Data Sheets plans I see a problem with the CBC. The
> space between the windows which would have been the compartment walls, as they
> were built as side-corridor compartment cars, is the same size/width.
I don't quite understand what you mean? The window spacings
were not altered when the
cars were rebuilt with tourist type interiors.
> However the
> Data sheet plans show that the first space between the windows on each end is
> narrower than the rest. There are excellent pix of CBC 1090 before and after
> restoration in Roundhouse October 95, page 33.
Some of the earlier Data sheets were not 100% reliable, as
Greg will readily admit,
however, on comparison with photos it appears that the
pattern maker didn't get this
bit quite correct, and the distance between the ends and the
first pair of windows is
about 3" to much. Since to alter would be a major job, I
can live with that.
> The model as supplied represents these cars in the period from ??-1968 as there
> are no windows in the clerestories. Does anyone know when the windows in the
> clerestories was removed?
>
The clerestory windows were not removed, they were merely
covered with strips of
masonite, the small vertical strips on the sides of the
clerestories are the cover
strips over the ends of the sheets of masonite. Restoration
of the windows on the
vintage cars was achieved by merely removing the covering of
masonite. I don't know
for sure, but logic and photographic evidence indicates that
this was a wartime
measure. For cars in pre-war condition it would be a fairly
simple matter to strip
off the paint, mask out the window areas with tape and then
respray with body
colour. As the roof castings are transparent removal of
the tape should result in
windows restored! I'll be doing this with my HX (which I
intend to convert back to an
AD sleeping car in fully lined Purple Brown) and CBC which
will be in pre-war fully
lined Russet and Tuscan Red. The cars as purchased only
represent the cars in the
period 1940s to restoration in the late 60s.The photo on P50
in Len Clark's Passenger
Cars of the NSWR(Traction Publications, 1972, long out of
print) of CBC1090, with
covered clerestories, but painted pre-war Russet and Tuscan
red, was probably taken
during, or just before the war to illustrate the work done.
If 1090 had been painted
red and cream like 1089 this may have been its post
repainting shot. Some one who has
access to paint dates may like to confirm or deny this for
me.
> BTW: published photods of these cars are somewhat hard, but those I've seen show
> that some cars had buffing plates instead of buffers. As always find a photo of
> the period you want and model from that!
>
I think that the CBCs always had buffers, the CFXs had
buffing plates and the
vestibuled cars had a form of buffing plate unique to
vestibuled cars. The drawgear
of the Vintage cars was altered when they were close coupled
in the late 60s rebuild.
> The HX has minor differences between the plan and the model, but who cares!
I agree, I intend to fix up the ends of the end platforms,
which have not been
correctly modelled, add the appropriate u/f detail, new
truss rods, superdetail the
rest of the model to my usual standards and add a basic
interior. I am not even going
to replace the end platform handrailing as I did with my AM
conversion, as the pullman
cars version is much finer and quite usable as it is with
the outer handrail painted
brass colour. I may change the bogies to the Eddie Garde
etched brass items, but at
about $50 a pair, I may not either!
> What about kit-bashing an HX into an AL. Have a side elevation only of AL 1040 and
> it looks near enough!! For pic of AL 1040 at Canberra (rather what's left of it)
> see carriage page on my new web site as follows:
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~alcohead/index.html
>
> Cheers
> Geoff
A combination of the u/f and bogies from the AM and a
shortened and modified body
and roof from the CBC would give a very nice result for both
the AL and the Dental
Clinic Cars.
Appropriate colours for CBC as purchased.
1940 till first repaint after 1946- Pre-war Russet and
Tuscan Red, fully lined.
Then until early 1960s- Post-war Tuscan and Russet, simple
lining.
Then until 1962- Plain overall Tuscan Red, no lining.
1962 till restoration in late sixties- Red and Cream as
purchased.
Appropriate colours for HX as purchased.
1943 till first repaint after 1946- possibly pre-war Russet
and Tuscan Red, fully
lined, but possibly wartime economy scheme if repainted at
time of conversion.
Then until next repaint in mid to late 1950s- Post-war
Tuscan and Russet, simple lining.
Then until 1962- Plain overall Tuscan Red, one yellow line
under window sill.
1962 till restoration in late sixties- Red and Cream as
purchased.
Ceridwen Jones
geoff wrote:
> Re buffing plates, see page 55 of len's book, there is a pic of a CBC erroneously
> captioned as a CVX and it has buffing plates, also the pix on the data sheet plan show
> some cars as having buffing plates. Also this pic shows 2 vents over the washrooms and
> toilet (i.e. over each window) a detail which is missing from the data sheet plan but
> which are shown in the accompanying pix, but which are missing from the model.
>
> Cheers
> Geoff
You're quite right Geoff, I should have counted the windows, it is a CBC, which raises an
interesting question, which one of the three was it, and when was the photo taken?Roof vents
are something that should always be modelled from photos, as they had a disconcerting habit
of moving around and changing shape!
In answer to your other question, I'm using Netscape, for what its worth.
Geoff has sent me a photo of one of the CBCs just prior to their restoration in Purple
Brown, if anyone would like a copy, please E-mail me or Geoff.
James McInerney