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Fossil Fuel Duel: Sid Harth

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navanavonmilita

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Jun 29, 2010, 4:34:11 PM6/29/10

Fossil Fuel Duel:Sid Harth
http://navanavonmilita.wordpress.com/2010/06/29/fossil-fuel-duelsid-harth/

Wis. company hopes Obama intervenes in India deal
By SCOTT BAUER (AP) – 2 hours ago

MADISON, Wis. — The chief executive of manufacturer Bucyrus
International Inc. said Tuesday that he hopes President Barack Obama
will intervene to save a $600 million international power plant deal
put in jeopardy by a Congress-funded bank.

Bucyrus received cancellation letters from Reliance Power Inc., with
which Bucyrus is building the coal-fired plant in India, shortly after
the U.S. Export-Import Bank voted late last week to deny the project
hundreds of millions of dollars in loan guarantees.

Losing the deal could cost Bucyrus and its manufacturers 1,000 jobs in
Wisconsin and 13 other states, CEO Tim Sullivan told The Associated
Press.

Sullivan said he hoped Obama would address the issue Wednesday during
his town hall meeting on the economy in Racine, only about 15 miles
from Bucyrus' headquarters in South Milwaukee. Sullivan said he's
asked the Indian company to give Bucyrus until after Obama's visit to
possibly rescue the deal.

"I don't understand politics," Sullivan said. "I'm just a business guy
who builds machinery. I don't care what happens, I don't care if I'm
the bad guy, all I care about is that we don't lose these jobs."

A message left Tuesday by the AP with the White House press office was
not immediately returned.

Sullivan said he's been in talks with officials from the bank, which
promotes U.S. exports with loan guarantees, ever since its 2-1 vote on
Thursday denying loan guarantees to Reliance Power, which runs the
power plant and coal mine in India.

The bank's decision effectively wiped out about $600 million in
equipment sales from Bucyrus, a mining equipment maker. Losing that
order could put about 300 jobs at the South Milwaukee plant in
jeopardy, along with about 700 others at suppliers around the country,
Sullivan said.

"I honestly think they're trying to figure out how to do this, not
just logistically but how to do this so as not to lose complete face
politically," Sullivan said of the bank.

The plant is under construction in Sasan, in central India, and is
scheduled to be up and running in 2012.

The fossil fuel project was the first to come before the government-
run bank since it adopted a climate-change policy to settle a lawsuit
and to meet Obama administration directives.

A spokeswoman for the bank had no immediate comment Tuesday on the
status of reconsideration of the vote.

Sullivan said he believes that the bank overstepped its own guidelines
in judging the project and he hopes that it will reconsider the vote,
even though there is no appeals process.

"It's really kind of a mess," Sullivan said.

The vote, which came just days before Obama was due in Wisconsin to
discuss the economy, is garnering strong reaction in Wisconsin.
Several prominent Democrats, including U.S. Sen. Russ Feingold, Gov.
Jim Doyle and Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett, a candidate for governor,
along with U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan, R-Wis., have voiced their displeasure
with the bank's vote.

Feingold said in a letter to the bank's president and chairman Fred P.
Hochberg that denial of the loan guarantee won't stop the project but
could convince Reliance Power to turn to manufacturers outside the
U.S. to get the equipment it was originally to receive from Bucyrus.

"At a time when our economy is only beginning to recover from the
worst recession since the Great Depression, it would be tragic to miss
this opportunity for bolstering employment," Feingold said.

Both Doyle and Barrett have said they hope to discuss the issue with
the president during his visit to Racine. The United Steelworkers of
America, which represents Bucyrus employees, is also urging the bank
to reverse its decision.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5igZdDYznZ5UFyH7ml56ReEXVRH0wD9GL2F2O0

Talks ongoing over Wis. business deal
Associated Press - June 29, 2010 3:05 PM ET

MADISON, Wis. (AP) - A White House official says talks are ongoing
about salvaging a deal involving Wisconsin-based Bucyrus (boo-SIGH-
rus) that could save about 1,000 jobs in Wisconsin and 13 other
states.

The deal is in jeopardy after the U.S. Export-Import Bank voted
against loan guarantees for a coal-fired power plant and mine in
India. Without those, the Indian business could not follow through
with its $600 million deal to buy equipment from Bucyrus.

A White House official said Tuesday that the bank is in discussions
with the Indian company about its application and is exploring whether
it might be resubmitted with new information. The official spoke on
the condition of anonymity to discuss the ongoing talks.

http://www.wkowtv.com/Global/story.asp?S=12728689

Tuesday, June 29, 2010

Calls mount for Export-Import Bank to reverse Bucyrus decision
By Rick Barrett of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: June 29, 2010 11:44 a.m.

Former Michigan Gov. John Engler has urged the U.S. Export-Import Bank
to reverse its recent decision that denied loan guarantees for mining
equipment that would be made by Bucyrus International to supplying
coal for a power plant in India.

Engler, now president of the National Association of Manufacturers,
said he spoke with Bank Chairman Fred Hochberg.

At risk is about $600 million in equipment sales for Bucyrus, of South
Milwaukee. Without the loan guarantees, for an Indian power plant
developer, Bucyrus says it will lose the equipment order and up to
1,000 U.S. jobs will be in jeopardy.

The Export-Import Bank denied the loan guarantees because it did not
want to finance a fossil fuel project that would harm the environment.

"This is a case of ideology winning over common sense and 1,000
American jobs," Engler said. "The mine will be dug and the plant will
be built. Advanced technology will be put to use to minimize the
environmental impact. The only question is whether U.S. companies will
supply the equipment or if Reliance Power will turn to non-U.S.
suppliers."

Export-Import Bank officials say they have limited options because a
Congressional mandate and past litigation require them to consider
environmental impacts of projects they finance.

"If there is indeed a law that prevents the bank's approval, based on
narrow environmental concerns, then Congress should immediately act to
provide the bank more flexibility so it can finance the project and
support U.S. jobs," Engler said.

Look for updates to this story on Jsonline and in Wednesday's paper.

Business
Calls mount for Export-Import Bank to reverse Bucyrus decision
By Rick Barrett of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: June 29, 2010 11:44 a.m. |(36) Comments

Engler, now president of the National Association of Manufacturers,
said he spoke with Bank Chairman Fred Hochberg.

The Export-Import Bank denied the loan guarantees because it did not
want to finance a fossil fuel project that would harm the environment.

Export-Import Bank officials say they have limited options because a
Congressional mandate and past litigation require them to consider
environmental impacts of projects they finance.

Look for updates to this story on Jsonline and in Wednesday's paper.

36 CommentsPost a Comment. Sort by: Oldest | Newest | Most Thumbs
UpPrev 1 2 Next All
Geo - Jun 29, 2010 11:53 AM» Report abuse
1 2 Click thumb to rate
1
2 Please login to rate Agreed. Open up the purse string "guarantees",
and help get us all back to work. Crazy to turn down ANYthing because
of environmental concerns.
SkunkyBunny - Jun 29, 2010 11:59 AM» Report abuse
2 4 Click thumb to rate
2
4 Please login to rate Welcome to the new normal. Chaos presented to
you by The Almighty One.
donttreadonme - Jun 29, 2010 12:01 PM» Report abuse
1 3 Click thumb to rate
1
3 Please login to rate Again, thank you UNIONS! Without you, none of
these tax and spending democrats would be office. They do not care
about you! Just wait until your employer drops your health coverage
and you have to buy it from the 'pool' - you'll love that.

Hmmm, maybe Doyle's energy plan could help eliminate all of the
remaining jobs in Wisconsin.
jimtherepublican - Jun 29, 2010 12:04 PM» Report abuse
2 4 Click thumb to rate
2
4 Please login to rate It's little more than a political gift to
Barrett. When Finegold, Barrett and Obama are together Wednesday you
will hear how the loan is back on and that Barrett was the hero,
convincing Obama to push the loan.

Has anyone asked why Barrett is helping Bucyrus to keep job in South
Milwaukee but has nothing to say when Miller, Harley, Johnson
Controls, Rockwell and any number of Milwaukee based firms leave or
propose leaving? This is simply a Chicago style political move. Watch
out. Not only will Bucyrus get the loan, there will be a deal for
light rail or some other train transit option that no one besides BI's
CEO feels they need.

Scam, scam, scam. A vote for Barrett is a Vote for Chicago style
corruption and a third term for Doyle.
GhostofTimJim - Jun 29, 2010 12:06 PM» Report abuse
3 0 Click thumb to rate
3
0 Please login to rate Take it easy on the kool aid, jim.
vino2015 - Jun 29, 2010 12:11 PM» Report abuse
2 2 Click thumb to rate
2
2 Please login to rate The Left wants to destroy what is left of
manufacturing in the United States because we commit to much carbon
emmisions. Save the world and starve the people. The left is
redistributing all our good paying jobs to China and Russia.
Silentbutdeadly - Jun 29, 2010 12:12 PM» Report abuse
1 3 Click thumb to rate
1
3 Please login to rate "donttreadonme" Are you Stupid or could you not
find the appropriate article to add your comments?
This is about dumb fossel fuel ideology and the repercussions of
implementing them.
A Mohrfeld - Jun 29, 2010 12:14 PM» Report abuse
1 1 Click thumb to rate
1
1 Please login to rate Awfully ironic that Obama and the Dems have
long railed against "greedy" corporations moving jobs overseas. Yet
their radical environmental policies will now be the cause of
precisely about which they have complained. What a joke.
jimtherepublican - Jun 29, 2010 12:21 PM» Report abuse
0 1 Click thumb to rate
0
1 Please login to rate Now hold on. Why wouldn't the unions support
the President's moves against big coal? That's about the only thing he
was honest on during the campaign, his desire to destroy the coal
industry. This is how it's done. Good luck getting into the wind
machine world....
jimtherepublican - Jun 29, 2010 12:23 PM» Report abuse
0 0 Click thumb to rate
0
0 Please login to rate GhostofTimJim
I don't like Kool-aid. How about coffee?
wilber - Jun 29, 2010 12:23 PM» Report abuse
2 0 Click thumb to rate
2
0 Please login to rate Jim, The black helicopters are coming!

BTW, A while ago (before the downturn), Harley was talking about
selling cycles in India. How long do you think it will be before they
tap into that low wage market? Even if the union here agreed to $8.00
an hour, do you think that would compete with wages in India? Maybe
you can convince Harley to stay here under those circumstances.
Despite a huge offer from the state, county and Janesville, GM played
us like a fiddle, getting over a billion dollars in incentives from
Michigan to move there. Mercury Marine did the same thing to get the
best deal to stay here. Spring Hill, TN lost out in the bid for the GM
plant too. I guess they didn't try either, eh?
MilwDave - Jun 29, 2010 12:28 PM» Report abuse
1 1 Click thumb to rate
1
1 Please login to rate This smells like orchestrated political
theatre. I'll be shock if "The Almighty One" does not announce a
reversal tomorrow.
DreamPolice - Jun 29, 2010 12:30 PM» Report abuse
1 0 Click thumb to rate
1
0 Please login to rate @Geo:
> Open up the purse string ...

Translation:
"Tax and spend ..."
outoftowner - Jun 29, 2010 12:37 PM» Report abuse
1 0 Click thumb to rate
1
0 Please login to rate I think Jim is on the right track here. I
wouldn't be a bit surprised if later today or perhaps during Obamas
visit to Racine that it is announced that the deal is back on. This
gives Barrett a much needed boost and makes Obama look good at the
same time.
Redman - Jun 29, 2010 12:42 PM» Report abuse
1 1 Click thumb to rate
1
1 Please login to rate "Silentbutdeadly", do you recall who elected
these bozos implementing these fossil fuel ideologies? It was the
unions and this would be considered a case of IRONY (check Websters).
How ironic that the unions helped to elect those that would rather
ship their jobs over seas for ideological reasons.

I'm thinking they are now wishing they had elected Hillary instead.
Hemant Kulkarni - Jun 29, 2010 12:49 PM» Report abuse
1 0 Click thumb to rate
1
0 Please login to rate BUCY down by 3.3 points (->6%) as of this
writing. Reader and politician optimism/buttering does not seem to
work with knowledgeble minds on the wall street. Imagine what'll
happen if the loan guaranty ultimtately fizzles (most likey it will).
Even the Govt lending bank has been questioning high end possible job
losses claimed by BUCY (today's JS Print edition). Fraud everywhere!
jimbo123 - Jun 29, 2010 12:51 PM» Report abuse
0 0 Click thumb to rate
0
0 Please login to rate Before Bucyrus does any business with India
they really need to look at India's Immigration policy. They do not
tolerate illegal immigrants so Bucyrus shouldn't do any business
there, no matter how many jobs it costs.

So much for green jobs.
peppers - Jun 29, 2010 12:54 PM» Report abuse
0 0 Click thumb to rate
0
0 Please login to rate If Bucryes is not allowed to build these,
someother country will. This is more than just jobs here. This is a
way of life, so many companies have moved manufacturing, and customer
service to countrys that not only pay less to their workers, but are
willing to build manufacting.

I am going to go out and increase my carbon foot print by riding my
bike 50 miles and expending lots of carbon dioxide into the air.
Adam J - Jun 29, 2010 12:58 PM» Report abuse
1 0 Click thumb to rate
1
0 Please login to rate jimtherepo see's liberals everywhere, "LOOK,
there's one now behind that bush!"...

Probably lies awake at night in a cold sweat wondering when the "great
one" will come to get him...

Sorry, lunch is over, gotta go back to work...
BrewCityGillz - Jun 29, 2010 12:59 PM» Report abuse
1 1 Click thumb to rate
1
1 Please login to rate Policies and decisions like this are exactly
why we need to stop giving in to extreme environmentalists.

Thousands upon thousands of American jobs have been lost due to our
government siding with environmental groups. The EPA itself is a
government body that is NOT elected yet has made countless decisions
that have killed American jobs and raised prices for Americans
especially hurting lower and middle class families.

Start taking a stand for jobs and for private business. It is not too
late to begin growing the US economy.

Engler, now president of the National Association of Manufacturers,
said he spoke with Bank Chairman Fred Hochberg.

The Export-Import Bank denied the loan guarantees because it did not
want to finance a fossil fuel project that would harm the environment.

Export-Import Bank officials say they have limited options because a
Congressional mandate and past litigation require them to consider
environmental impacts of projects they finance.

Look for updates to this story on Jsonline and in Wednesday's paper.

36 Comments

Steve O53158 - Jun 29, 2010 1:00 PM»

Whether there comes an 11th hour "job saving measure" by any of the
lefties in power or not...at SOME point lunch bucket voters (union or
not) need to realize that Democrats are no longer the friend of the
working man/woman. God help us all if cap & trade gets jammed
through.
Our government of, by, and for the people needs to support private
sector growth...since, after all, that is where the lion's share of
taxes come from.
Do a little research on the illusion that is "green" energy. What a
scam...
Hemant Kulkarni - Jun 29, 2010 1:01 PM»

How naive to say 'boycot' doing business in India over silly reasons.
Such things don't work -particularly if BUCY's intent is to make a
PROFIT BY SELLING (meaning NOT BUYING). India is the BUYER & shall
take this business to China or one of those struggling Soviet bloc
countries -per JS front page article and admittance by BUCY. Join
school!
peppers - Jun 29, 2010 1:08 PM»

HMMMMM Cap and Trade,

How much is this going to cost me for breathing?
Silentbutdeadly - Jun 29, 2010 1:11 PM»

"Redman" Was Hillary EVEN electable? Was McCain?
Chucksa - Jun 29, 2010 1:13 PM»

Maybe I missed the point? Is it conditions on the Government bonding a
loan to an American Company (Bucyrus)? So no matter how much
conservatives scream about the 'rules' imposed for taking Government
money, they do know that they are entitled to it and don't want
conditions attached.

Who is this import/export bank that has the ability to put US at risk
lending money? If it is such a low risk, why does it need US
government backing at all? I would guess it's just got to do with
providing a lower interest rate because there's no risk to the
companies profiting from it.
ktkof08 - Jun 29, 2010 1:15 PM»

The Export-Import Bank needs to pull its head out of its arrogant rear
end and realize that their decision will have NO impact on the
environment. The only thing they're deciding is whether or not this
equipment will be supplied by US manufacturing jobs or foreign ones.

So far, they've decided they don't want the jobs here in the States.
immigrant5 - Jun 29, 2010 1:19 PM»

The over-reaching by our government in this case is absolutely
breathtaking. It is obstructing a private corporation from selling its
product to an overseas buyer.

Bucyrus was one of four competing bids for this contract. And they did
a great job to sell the product and get the business awarded to
them...only to have the rug pulled out from under them by their own
government.

Who could have conceived of such a thing?

While the governments of the other competing firms are subsidizing the
product, the Obama administration is doing just the opposite. For
example, Germany is providing much more than just loan guarantees for
Krupp. Germany is doing everything in its power to see Krupp win this
contract; absorbing the VAT tax, subsidizing the transportation,
subsidizing the training, etc. At $600 million, this contract will
make a significant impact to the German economy. But Germany is not
alone in its desire to see it's business succeed. This has been a
standard operating practice for decades...until the Obama
administration, who prefers to see its corporations fail.
z71truck - Jun 29, 2010 1:32 PM»

Which came first? Ecology or economy. Which do we need more, the earth
or a job??? Hmm which do we only have one of and thanks to you
capitalists have polluted the crap out of. Screw the private sector.
All the money in the world wont buy clean air, water and planet. I
work hard for a living but I also know my priorities are to my kids
and grandkids future not to some greedy SOB sitting in an office.
not2oltyet - Jun 29, 2010 1:32 PM»

Party lines aside, if those in power are serious about keeping /
creating jobs and stabilizing the economy, it should be a slam dunk to
over ride the banks restrictions and keep 6 million of revenue and
1000 jobs here in the USA. All you hear about is jobs being shipped
over seas and products from abroad being shipped in. If this one
(contract) gets away, both parties better take a good look at
themselves and ask "how am I representing my constituents"? They also
should think about other employment.
snazzy1 - Jun 29, 2010 1:43 PM»

I see the brainless Limbaugh, sycopath, smelling, listeners are out in
full
force making brilliant comments again.
snazzy1 - Jun 29, 2010 1:59 PM»

Guys like donttread on me slamming unions, blaming all our countries
woes
on unions. Probably a corp. owner who would prefer to pay his
employees
$3/hr. Also unaware that his very existence of growing up in a middle
class family was brought to him because of unions. These are just
plain
ignorant stupid comments that I expect from Tea party idiots.
immigrant5 - Jun 29, 2010 2:00 PM»

Z71truck,
When Krupp provides the mining equipment to India instead of Bucyrus,
how exactly does this improve the Global environment? Pardon my
ignorance, but I am having difficulties seeing an impact to the
environment.
Star56 - Jun 29, 2010 2:06 PM»

Z71rtuck...That's right screw the working folk by making everything we
do in the USA ecologically unsafe for the environment. The
environmental controls work well if they are enforced. I bet coal
somehow fuels your house and work? How about the electricity you used
to write your BLOG. Made with coal from WE Energies or another coal or
nuclear plant I bet. The wind and solar plants will not support the
industry in any state 100%. What are your alternatives?

The USA government will not control India's buying of this equipment.
Bucyrus builds equipment for mining. The mine and equipment will be
built anyway you look at it. Do you want 1,000 people or so to loose
there job?

The world has been around for a long time and will go on with your
kids, grand kids, and future generations to boot. Companies should not
be denied loans for ridiculous government policies.

Repeal this decision and keep the jobs in the state of Wisconsin.
AtomicPop - Jun 29, 2010 2:07 PM»

Amusing how many here will be upset angry with the President if the
decision is reversed, and, you guessed it, angry with him if the deal
doesn't get done. Same posters expressing the same opinions almost
regardless of topic. Why do you bother?

My guess is your disdain is motivated by something much deeper and
more sinister than a corporate subsidy.
YAFF1 - Jun 29, 2010 2:18 PM»

Snazzy1,

What's wrong with $3 hour wages if that's what it takes to be
competitive globally. It beats not working, right?

And, if sub-minimum wages are so unattractive, why do we need to build
fences on the Mexican border to keep people from sneaking into this
country, desperate for the chance to snag a $3 per hour job.

I think a lot of the anger from displaced low-skill workers is because
they haven't yet figured out that their labor might only be worth $3
per hour in the global market.

Whose fault is that? Certainly not the business owner who needs to
compete globally.

Despite what a lot of people think, corporations don't set wage rates,
competition does.
harleyultra - Jun 29, 2010 2:25 PM»

jimtherepublican - Jun 29, 2010 12:04 PM»
It's little more than a political gift to Barrett. When Finegold,
Barrett and Obama are together Wednesday you will hear how the loan is
back on and that Barrett was the hero, convincing Obama to push the
loan."

Wilbur - If the above is not correct, then this is the time (six
months before the election) to announce the possible layoffs of 1000
people?

Atomic - The only people who will be upset if the decision is reversed
are the lefty environmentalists. So Obama and Barrett have to decide
which is more important, union support or environmentalists. You cant
have both on this one. Its a no brainer who has the power in Wisconsin
- Unions. If that is not the case, then Obama should have the guts to
hold a press conference at Bucyrus and say "The price of my
environmental virtue is one thousand of your jobs from this factory".
Barrett can then make plans for life after politics which should by
shortly.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/97399649.html

Business
U.S. agency's action may kill Bucyrus deal, cost 1,000 jobs
Export-Import Bank denies loan guarantees for coal project in India
By Rick Barrett of the Journal Sentinel

Posted: June 26, 2010 |(210) Comments

Wider impact
Bucyrus has 250 suppliers in Wisconsin that employ 15,000 people

Source: Metropolitan Milwaukee Association of Commerce
Up to 1,000 jobs at Bucyrus International Inc. and its suppliers could
be in jeopardy as the result of a decision by the U.S. Export-Import
Bank, funded by Congress, to deny several hundred million dollars in
loan guarantees to a coal-fired power plant and mine in India.

About 300 of those jobs are at the Bucyrus plant in South Milwaukee,
where the company has 1,410 employees and its headquarters. The
remaining jobs are spread across 13 states, including Illinois,
Minnesota and Indiana.

On Thursday, the Export-Import Bank denied financing for Reliance
Power Ltd., an Indian power plant company, effectively wiping out
about $600 million in coal mining equipment sales for Bucyrus, chief
executive Tim Sullivan said.

The fossil fuel project was the first to come before the government-
run bank since it adopted a climate-change policy to settle a lawsuit
and to meet Obama administration directives.

"President Obama has made clear his administration's commitment to
transition away from high-carbon investments and toward a cleaner-
energy future," Export-Import Bank Chairman Fred Hochberg said in a
statement. "After careful deliberation, the Export-Import Bank board
voted not to proceed with this project because of the projected
adverse environmental impact."

The bank's decision is puzzling, Sullivan said, because the power
plant will meet international standards and the bank's environmental
criteria.

The plant is under construction in Sasan, central India, and is
scheduled to be up and running in 2012. Coal mining will take place
for the plant whether it's done with Bucyrus machines or equipment
from China and Belarus, Sullivan said.

"Unless the Obama administration jumps all over this and corrects a
wrong fairly quickly, I am confident this business is going
elsewhere," Sullivan told the Journal Sentinel on Saturday.

"The bank's decision has had no impact on global carbon emissions but
has cost the U.S. nearly 1,000 jobs," he added.

The Export-Import Bank would not elaborate on the board's 2-1 vote -
including Hochberg's - to deny the loan guarantees.

The U.S. State and Treasury departments recommended against making the
loan guarantees. Neither agency could be reached for comment Saturday.

Political backlash
Democratic Gov. Jim Doyle and Sen. Herb Kohl, Republican Rep. Paul
Ryan and Mayor Tom Barrett, the Democratic candidate for governor,
voiced their objections to the Export-Import Bank decision, which may
be irreversible since there isn't an appeals process.

Doyle said he met with Hochberg to stress the importance of the mining
equipment sale, which was contingent on the loan guarantees, for
sustaining jobs here.

"I was absolutely stunned by their decision. It was the most
shortsighted, unconscionable decision you could imagine, and I can't
see any justification for it," the governor said.

Doyle said he hopes the bank's decision can be reversed before India
turns to China or Belarus for mining equipment.

The decision could set a precedent that would keep other nations from
buying U.S. mining equipment, especially since China offers discount
financing on machines built there, which puts the U.S. at a
competitive disadvantage.

"My discussions with the bank chairman were hardly confidence-
building," Doyle said. "They really could not justify their decision
except somehow, somebody told them that if the word coal is anywhere
in a plan, then they can't move forward with it."

Obama is scheduled to be in Racine on Wednesday.

Doyle said he wants to meet with the president and urge him to ask the
Export-Import Bank to reconsider its decision.

"I am a green-energy guy," Doyle said. "But I also understand that we
need coal as a major source of energy. What that means is, we need to
develop and support the technologies and businesses that are involved
in the production of energy from clean coal. Bucyrus is one of those
businesses."

Barrett, too, said he would press the issue with Obama.

"By rejecting the Bucyrus proposal, the bank has guaranteed companies
who care little for carbon emissions in Russia or China will get these
jobs. These are the common-sense arguments I will make to the bank to
reverse this awful decision. And they are points I'll personally share
with the president when he is in Wisconsin this week," Barrett added.

Ryan said he was angered by the "slippery explanation" given by the
Export-Import Bank for denying the loan guarantees.

"This is an ominous preview of the economic damage from Washington's
environmental overreach. Should they fail to overturn this decision,
the administration is sending a clear signal to the Midwest that
political ideology is a higher priority than the livelihoods of
Wisconsin families," Ryan said.

Kohl said he has met with federal officials about the loan guarantees.

"It is surprising and disappointing that, in this difficult economy,
the bank passed on this opportunity to create good-paying jobs. While
I am aware of the environmental concerns, denying this deal doesn't
prevent a coal power plant from being built. It only ensures that the
jobs connected to it are not American," Kohl said in an e-mail.

Environmental lawsuit
Environmentalists praised the Export-Import Bank's decision Saturday,
saying it should not support coal-fired power plants.

"Coal is the dirtiest form of energy that exists. There is no such
thing as 'clean coal,' " said Oliver Bernstein, spokesman for the
Sierra Club, based in San Francisco.

Sierra Club is active in India, working to support solar power and
green energy.

"Green technology is the fastest way to help the environment and
create jobs that will last," Bernstein said.

The bank's decision has its roots in a 2002 lawsuit filed in federal
court in San Francisco by Friends of the Earth, Greenpeace and four
cities claiming they would suffer environmental and economic damage
from global climate change.

The plaintiffs alleged the Export-Import Bank and the Overseas Private
Investment Corp. provided more than $32 billion in financing and loan
guarantees for fossil fuel projects over 10 years without studying
their impact on global warming or the environment as required by the
National Environmental Policy Act.

In 2009, the two agencies agreed to provide a combined $500 million in
financing for renewable-energy projects and take into account the
greenhouse gas emissions associated with projects they support.

But one of the bank's duties is to support the export of U.S.-
manufactured products, such as mining equipment.

"In fact, they are doing just the opposite in steering our customers
to our foreign competition," Sullivan said.

Lining up support
Sullivan plans to seek community support, including help from Bucyrus
suppliers and the United Steelworkers of America, which represents
Bucyrus employees, to urge the Export-Import Bank to change its
decision. Otherwise, Sullivan said, there is no appeals process for
votes by the Export-Import Bank board.

Bucyrus has 250 suppliers in Wisconsin that employ 15,000 people,
according to the Metropolitan Milwaukee Association of Commerce.

"These companies are dependent on Bucyrus' ability to capture
international sales and export their machines," said Tim Sheehy, MMAC
president. "If Bucyrus catches a cold on this, there are hundreds of
employers that get sick."

National Mining Association spokeswoman Carol Raulston called the
Export-Import Bank's decision shortsighted and said it sets a
dangerous precedent for other developing nations wanting to do
business with Bucyrus.

"India has millions of people living in poverty, and coal is going to
be their most affordable source of electricity," Raulston said.

The Bucyrus equipment that was ordered for India included two
draglines, which are machines weighing millions of pounds and tall
enough to loom over a 20-story building.

It takes three years to build a dragline at a cost of more than $100
million.

The initial equipment order also included eight electric-powered rope
shovels and 180 mining trucks. With additional options, services and
other products, the order could exceed $600 million, according to
Bucyrus.

"This is a huge deal for us," Sullivan said. Without the order, he
added, the company must find other work to avoid layoffs.

"We are going to fight hard to keep this order, but frankly, India can
probably find better partners than the U.S. to develop its energy
sector," Sullivan said.

210 Comments

justice reform - Jun 26, 2010 11:35 AM»

Important issue in concern to everyone. Where do the other elected
officials stand such as Sensenbrenner? Need more details on the Export-
Import Bank as to who is running that, how is it funded.
GuthriePride - Jun 26, 2010 11:44 AM»

"defied common sense"- Diamond Jim you are unbelievable. Why dont you
go down to Cassville and talk about common sense and coal. The power
plant that you stopped would have created hundreds of jobs and saved
the city. These communists are killing this country.
seinatra - Jun 26, 2010 11:44 AM»

Why would Doyle be opposed to this decision? Wasn't he behind the
green energy bill push in Wisconsin that had the same rational?
Everyone who believes there are millions of green jobs going to be
created by solar, wind and 'green' energy should take note of this
one.
EastSideJim - Jun 26, 2010 11:45 AM»

More Obama prosperity.

Once they get ahold of Cap and Trade and carbon regulation, Milwaukee
will become the next Detroit.

Most of our electricity comes from coal (prices will go through the
roof) and a large part of the local economy is driven by out of region
dollars coming in to buy mining equipment that we produce.

Government intervention drives misery, not prosperity.
AtomicPop - Jun 26, 2010 11:45 AM»

Good. Let's use the same $250MM towards loans for domestic companies
researching and producing low/no carbon energy technology. That
research, and the resulting products, would produce at least as many
jobs, strengthen our economy and help position the US for even more
future economic growth.
GuthriePride - Jun 26, 2010 11:49 AM»

AtomicPop- read up on Spain.
DreamPolice - Jun 26, 2010 11:50 AM»

@justice reform:
> Need more details on the Export-Import Bank as to who is running that,
> how is it funded.

It's not that hard to learn about it if you'd actually _try_...
www.exim.gov
US Citizen - Jun 26, 2010 12:03 PM»

They need to go through the parking lot and look for the obama bumpers
stickers and lay them off first.
justice reform - Jun 26, 2010 12:04 PM»

Dream Police, OK
Export Import bank is a government handout program. Where is support
from local banks, venture angels and other means to finance? There are
plenty of US companies that get financing from all over the world.
Sounds like the auto makers arriving in private planes for a bailout.
Forum Troll - Jun 26, 2010 12:19 PM»

Thank all the enviro-wackos and their "go green" crap.
AtomicPop - Jun 26, 2010 12:27 PM»

Funny how all the "big government" haters now want this deal to be
financed by big government. I guess you only hate it when you have to
sacrifice something?
CheezHeadChick - Jun 26, 2010 12:34 PM»

Curiouser and curiouser. Last week we were talking about all these
jobs that were allegedly being added due to the acquisition of that
other company. Now we're talking about cutting THE SAME NUMBER. We
also have all of this spare cash sitting around to finance buying the
Midwest Airline offices, funding some silly bicycle ride, and
sponsoring NASCAR. But as soon as some bad news comes...cut jobs
first. Typical. Even stranger is the fact that this customer is India.
The company has manufacturing facilities in India and China, has
redeveloped smaller machines for that market and even had Indian
personnel working hand in hand with the SM group to develop those
machines for manufacture, sale, and support locally in India and
China. So maybe if we weren't building in a recession and counting all
those unhatched chickens we wouldn't be threatening jobs the first
time Obama's policies come home (and if you weren't expecting this
administration to have a negative impact on mining at some point,
maybe there is another job that needs replacing....)
timbercore - Jun 26, 2010 12:45 PM» Report abuse

Those jobs are still available- in the 19th century. Good luck.
fishbait - Jun 26, 2010 12:54 PM»

AtomicPop - these were loan guarantees, not actual loans. Here's a
little economics lesson. The guarantees would allow the project to get
better rates from the actual lenders/investors. It is a subsidy since
it in effects makes someone else competing for that capital have to
pay more for it, but the project is being financed whether the export-
import bank guarantees the loans or not.

Economics is not a vaccuum, which is why any gov't intervention alters
true competition. This is not a question of big government paying the
freight since the project is going forward. It is actually a moot
policy decision to be green since the real issue is whether you want
the work done in American or China.
MOTR - Jun 26, 2010 12:59 PM»

Picking winners and losers. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.
AtomicPop - Jun 26, 2010 1:05 PM»

Fish, Yes I understand the difference. I have an econ degree. ExIm
Bank doesn't do anything with domestic projects either. Those are
clearly outside their charter. I was just trying to make a point.

Guthrie, no need to read about Spain. I travel there once or twice a
year. Fantastic weather, rather cheap travel, amazing food, and lovely
people. Regarding their involvement in solar, they were subsidizing
the purchase of solar technology, not the development of solar
technology. Not at all what I'm advocating we do as a country.
justice reform - Jun 26, 2010 1:05 PM»

Position of Sensenbrenner on this issue would be interesting since he
supported mining lobby where equipment was not bought from Bucyrus.

Big racing here and its curious what is going on in Nascar with
development of bio-fuels as a green technology.
Forum Troll - Jun 26, 2010 1:12 PM»

Hasn't all this global warming crap been sufficiently discredited
yet?
TerryN - Jun 26, 2010 1:28 PM»

Not yet, F. Troll.
Forum Troll - Jun 26, 2010 1:47 PM»

Well, Al Gore will be happy to hear that. If people ever notice that
even he doesn't believe all the crap he feeds them, he won't be able
to afford all his mansions and private jets.

DreamPolice - Jun 26, 2010 1:48 PM»

All you folks who are so worked up over this decision should make sure
President Obama hears you load and clear when he is in SE Wisconsin
next Tuesday and Wednesday.
jsch0602 - Jun 26, 2010 2:24 PM»

Don't worry. The project will continue in India. Just without American
equipment. Obama's got two more years to completely destroy the U.S.
economy.
b4esq - Jun 26, 2010 2:39 PM»

WTF? Are you kidding? Let's just take another 1,000 job loss here in
Milwaukee. Why is Congress so worried about international carbon use?
Um, THERE IS AN OIL LEAK GOING ON HERE STILL!! Why not worry about the
leak first as it is HURRICANE SEASON now. Unbelieveable!

FISHBAIT- Really, get off your ivory tower. Quit sounding condesending
in EVERY SINGLE post you make on JSOnline. You are no guru in Econ.
Sheesh! Really???
b4esq - Jun 26, 2010 2:40 PM»

FISHBAIT- Really, get off your ivory tower. Quit sounding condesending
in EVERY SINGLE post you make on JSOnline. You are no guru in Econ.
Sheesh! Really???
FromWI - Jun 26, 2010 2:40 PM»

We have power generated by our nuclear power plant that you might be
able to use but the politicians of WI don’t like us AZ people so we’ll
just
keep our cheap power.
b4esq - Jun 26, 2010 2:40 PM»

FISHBAIT- Really, get off your ivory tower. Quit sounding condesending
in EVERY SINGLE post you make on JSOnline. You are no guru in Econ.
Sheesh! Really???
Bill Dollar - Jun 26, 2010 3:06 PM»

The decision of the Ex-Im Bank to deny the loan was political. Thus,
the loss of jobs if directly attributable to Barrack Obama. The board
of the Ex-Im Bank voted 2-1 against supporting the project. The bank
board split along party lines. Two Democratic members—Fred Hochberg,
chairman, and Diane Farrell—voted against supporting the project,
while a Republican, Bijan R. Kian, voted in favor.

How is it that the US EX-IM Bank is willing assist the Brazilian oil
company Petrobras with a $2 Billion loan deal in exchange for US
produced off-shore drilling and mining goods that seemingly buck
current energy policy as well? Environmental considerations...really!
Of course, George Soros, Obama's Godfather, has money invested in
Petrobras.

Milwaukee...kiss off 1,000 jobs. Maybe in November, Milwaukee voters
will remember this horrible Democratic decision.
DreamPolice - Jun 26, 2010 3:27 PM»

@b4esq:
> Let's just take another 1,000 job loss here in Milwaukee.

@Bill Dollar:
> Milwaukee...kiss off 1,000 jobs.

Nice spin, except here are the facts in this situation:

Bucyrus International estimated that the India order would _create_ or
_protect_ 984 jobs in 13 U.S. states. BI was not specific about how
many were potential new jobs, how many were existing jobs.

This article says about 300 of the (potential) jobs are in the
Milwaukee area...
milwaukee a - Jun 26, 2010 3:45 PM»

al gore is accused of raping a women in either seattle or
portland........
moony9472 - Jun 26, 2010 3:52 PM»

So we have Jim Doyle and Herb Kohl - both of whom have supported every
cap-and-trade bill proposed - crying foul when their long-held
philosophy causes economic harm in their backyard?

Absolutely stunning. How do these people even show their face in
public?
knowsdev - Jun 26, 2010 3:53 PM»

Per President Osama, he just created another 3500 jobs with this
blunder.
GuthriePride - Jun 26, 2010 4:07 PM»

Atomicpop- Fair enough, well done.
dnickel - Jun 26, 2010 4:41 PM»

@DreamPolice (btw are you going to see Cheap Rick @ Summerfest) ;)

You talk spin, but then leave out the mention that this also threatens
their supply chain of 250 suppliers in Wisconsin that employ 15,000
people.

So, if this could turn out to be worse than a loss of 300 or 1000
jobs, here in Wisconsin. I really don't know how tethered the
suppliers are to this project, but in the current state of the
economy, it realistically could be a make/break for any of these
suppliers.
leftwisconsin - Jun 26, 2010 4:43 PM»

Another clap trap company looking for a government hand out. Us former
Wisconsin folks would lend a hand but we got kicked out in the last
recession.
MKEWI - Jun 26, 2010 4:50 PM»

It only makes sense, liberals have no clue in what ever they do. I am
sorry alot of good hard working people will be affected by a socialist
president.
Bill Marsh - Jun 26, 2010 5:07 PM»

So will Senators Feingold and Kohl, and the rest of the WI democratic
congressional delegation use their wee clout to reverse this deal next
week when Obama is in town? Bucyrus is in Gwen Moore's district, I'm
sure she will make things right.

For all the mindless lefties- As to the the decision- the coal in
India will still get mined and will still get burned, but with
equipment made in China or some other place outside of the US. So how
does this decision make the planet more green?
HereLegally - Jun 26, 2010 5:08 PM»

"About 300 of the jobs are in Milwaukee and South Milwaukee, where
Bucyrus is a large industrial employer. The remaining jobs are spread
across 13 states, including Illinois, Minnesota and Indiana."

Second paragraph. Only 300 jobs lost in Milwaukee area. But it's not
good to lose jobs.
myst2010 - Jun 26, 2010 5:40 PM»

Obama OK'd a loan to Brazil for millions so they could do deep off
shore oil drilling but not for coal mining in India. Seems like a
double standard. Think about it.
dnickel - Jun 26, 2010 6:00 PM»

@HereLegally

You leave out the mention that this also threatens their supply chain
of 250 suppliers in Wisconsin that employ 15,000 people.

So, this could turn out to be a lot worse than a loss of 300 or 1000
jobs, here in Wisconsin. I really don't know how tethered the
suppliers are to this project, but in the current state of the
economy, it realistically could be a make/break for any of these
suppliers.
Carnal Sanders - Jun 26, 2010 7:13 PM»

Peggy West is on it.

We sent her to India so she should be in Fort Wayne by now.

Forum Troll - Jun 26, 2010 7:30 PM»

George Bush's fault.
delafield - Jun 26, 2010 7:55 PM»

What this world really needs is to throw ten million "Drill, baby,
drill Republicans " into the Gulf of Mexico to sop up the 900 million
gallon crude oil mess that they created. I heard that Republicans are
very absorbant.
DrewH - Jun 26, 2010 8:02 PM»

Gov't needs to get out of the f'n way and let private business do it's
job.
delafield - Jun 26, 2010 8:26 PM»

"""""DrewH says, "Gov't needs to get out of the f'n way and let
private business do it's job.""""

That's exactly what Bernard Madoff said just before he was arrested
for stealing $165 billion dollars from his clients.
sick of politicians - Jun 26, 2010 8:47 PM»

Another sick example of political incompetence.
snazzy1 - Jun 26, 2010 9:05 PM» Report abuse
4 4 Click thumb to rate
4
4 Please login to rate Some of you guys really make some stupid
comments;ex;F. troll,U. S. citizen. First off,
Yeah I guess you're right, there's no global warming. Just never mind
the rising oceans, the
melting ice caps, etc. Keep smoking your lefties. The drying up of
wis. lakes, yeah your'e
right! Secondly jobs, lots of jobs can be created even if we change
the way we produce
energy. I find it interesting that liberal politicians came out and
said this is stupid, which
anybody with common sense can see. You don't have to be any political
party to have
common sense; or maybe you do. I believe this will get fixed,
hopefully in time. But more
than that is the fact that other countries are miles ahead of us on
new technology like wind,
solar, hydrogen fuel cells etc. But you republicans that want to stay
in the past will be left
in the dust, and once again we will be importing their technology
rather than being a leader
and exporting ours. Some of you people need to get a brain and figure
it out.
snazzy1 - Jun 26, 2010 9:13 PM»

Please get govt. out of the way, but wait; bring them back to the gulf
we
need help. We need a smaller govt. with less regulation, but can you,
uncle sam give us 700 billion dollars because we couldn't manage our
own
banking system. And please plug the hole in the gulf, wer'e sorry we
screwed up, but could you please fix it?
Annie500 - Jun 26, 2010 9:18 PM»

I hope all you brain dead Union workers are happy with the cap and tax
bill. Keep voting for the Dems until we are a third world
Country.Green jobs an other hoax like global warming. Spain has lost
jobs because there green energies,look it up. The next Greece. The
best green energy is nuclear.
Supreme Commander - Jun 26, 2010 9:32 PM»

Another entire industrial sector eliminated by washington.

Bucyrus beat bankrupcy by hard work and sacrifice, and washington will
destroy it
through policy decisions not favored by the majority .

Our representative government is only representing the will of the
minority.

Hope....Change???
moony9472 - Jun 26, 2010 9:35 PM»

Delafield, as usual your commentary is spot-on with the topic at hand
(sarcasm intended).

As for everybody else: These are the real-world results of an ideology
manifesting itself. The people losing these jobs will be your friends,
neighbors, co-workers - or maybe even yourself.

Talk all you want about "green jobs," we aren't there yet and it will
be a while before we are. For all those pushing "alternative energy" -
Snazzy, are you listening? - how do you propose that we fuel our
industry and transportation right now? The ideology at work here is
pushing us on a path of economic ruin, and the Midwest will suffer
more than anywhere else because of its reliance on manufacturing and
heavy industry.
zapper - Jun 26, 2010 9:36 PM»

jobs are stupid i prefer welfare
frame313 - Jun 26, 2010 9:59 PM»

help me out here. earth has had at least 5 ice ages in the last 2 -
2.4 billion years. were fossil fuels and bucyrus responsible for those
climate changes also?
frame313 - Jun 26, 2010 10:00 PM»

help me out here. earth has had at least 5 ice ages in the last 2 -
2.4 billion years. were fossil fuels and bucyrus responsible for those
climate changes also?
LACROSSEWIMAN - Jun 26, 2010 11:41 PM»

Why do they need government money, aren't there any other banks
lending? I suppose when they go under then they don't have to pay it
back?
LACROSSEWIMAN - Jun 26, 2010 11:47 PM»

Frame-

We are in an ice age right now...we are just in an interglacial...they
(ice sheets) advance and retreat...during a "warm" period, there would
be little/to no ice... It would be a water world. Don't worry. The
sheets will reform and crush our northern cities at some point. party
on!
Tyrell Track Master - Jun 27, 2010 1:25 AM»

Wow, what shocking comments. It's really awful when people blame
economic costs on environmental policy. Sorry guys, it's time to build
a new economy. Aren't you the same people who hate government handouts
and want companies to drive the economy? Well, if we stopped this kind
of handout, we'd have a much stronger renewables sector.

Bucyrus will be fine, there will be no shortage of mining
opportunities for them. They're making a moutain out of a coal hill.

Finally - coal is FILTHY and we should not be basing our economy on
it. Regardless of what India and China do....
DreamPolice - Jun 27, 2010 1:28 AM»

@HereLegally:
> "About 300 of the jobs are in Milwaukee and South
> Milwaukee, where Bucyrus is a large industrial
> employer. The remaining jobs are spread across 13
> states, including Illinois, Minnesota and Indiana."
>
> Second paragraph. Only 300 jobs lost in Milwaukee
> area. But it's not good to lose jobs

"Lost" is not in the second paragraph. Nor any paragraph of the
article. No one used the word lost until your posting.

"Create or protect jobs" is how Bucyrus International describes the
situation, not "lost."
X Man - Jun 27, 2010 1:30 AM»

When asked about clean coal as a viable energy source I remember Obama
saying and I quote "I wouldn't invest in coal"

Of course these political positions could change with the proper
amount of money donated to Obama's re-election campaign.
DreamPolice - Jun 27, 2010 1:33 AM»

Tim Sullivan, the CEO of Bucyrus has said that the order from the
Indian company _depended_ upon the US Government guarantees... it
seems he doesn't think they can compete on the open market?
DreamPolice - Jun 27, 2010 1:37 AM»

@dnickel:
> @DreamPolice (btw are you going to see Cheap Rick @ Summerfest) ;)

Naw... I got down to late on Friday to catch them.

DreamPolice - Jun 27, 2010 1:40 AM»

@AtomicPop:
> Good. Let's use the same $250MM towards loans for domestic
> companies researching and producing low/no carbon energy technology

The US was guaranteeing the loan to the Indian company, which is a far
cry from certain failure of the project and having the ability to use
the money for other purposes.
your daddy - Jun 27, 2010 2:21 AM»

what comes around, goes around.
tazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 2:54 AM»

Where's WALKER on this issue? I know! He and the SHERIFF are trying to
run DAMAGE CONTROL!
more excuses - Jun 27, 2010 3:24 AM»

Bout time us tree-huggers win one. Screw da jobs. If the workers had
gone to college they would have a better future as a state worker.
No.....they chose to be tethered to the PRIVATE economy of
exploitation and environmental destruction. WHY don't folks get it? No
need for manufacturing jobs. We just need more EDUCATED workers at
DPI, DNR, etc. and everyone could live above average and retire at 50
with full bene's.

NOPE...they wanted the easy way out....to actually work for a living.
What's the wold coming to when there are not enough government jobs
for everyone? Go Wisconsin. Go Jim Doyle. Create dem government jobs
for everyone. Abolish cars and trucks ..they pollute. Sell bikes and
for winter, sell sleds.
Steve Paluch - Jun 27, 2010 5:04 AM»

Interesting to see all of Charlie Sykes' minions active over the
weekend. I thought for sure they would be too busy tending to their
trust fund babies.
freidenker - Jun 27, 2010 5:17 AM»

For Bucyrus & its employees, this is not good news. Nevertheless,
sometime, somewhere, you just have to start doing what's right. The
need to be able to "compete" is often cited in these cases (by the big
banks with their obscene bonuses too - "else the 'good' people will go
somewhere else), but that just shows the need for international
coordination & regulation. A Russian or Chinese company should not be
allowed to do the wrong thing and so get an edge on an American
company. The fundamental problem here is the present world business
system does not lend itself to doing what's right. The only thing that
matters is that a profit is made. Until this problem is rectified,
nothing is going to really get better. Maybe we and the rest of the
world need to overcome our nationalist view of things and begin to set
worthy goals and work together toward achieving them. In this case,
there should be an international consensus that coal-fired plants
should not be built at all. They should just simply be beyond the
pale. Instead, environmentally- sound systems should be built and then
companies world-wide can make their bids and do so with a clear
conscience. In the long-run, I don't see any way around not having an
international regulatory system. It's in the interest of our species
to do so. Nevertheless, I'm skeptical that that will ever happen.
Humans are probably too egocentric to be able to do the right thing.
History doesn't lie.
adk - Jun 27, 2010 5:48 AM»

All you Obama voters, how's that working out????????
chipad - Jun 27, 2010 7:20 AM»

I thought repubicans were against governement intervention in private
industry? Isn't it socialist for the government to be investing in
mining and coal plants, especially in foreign countries?

BTW, where are all the teabaggers who scream about the liberal media
and JS as a mouthpeice for the democrats? Now they are taking every
word in this article as total truth.
luisb69 - Jun 27, 2010 7:30 AM»

i happen to work for Bucyrus and have been for over five years now.
This decision will effect me and my family. thanks a lot Obama and you
tree hugging environmentalist
HeavyD - Jun 27, 2010 7:31 AM»

Who is surprised by this? Obama has said he is going to kill coal,
which means killing jobs.

Obama = turn productive workers into wards of the state.
sick of politicians - Jun 27, 2010 7:42 AM»

tazzy1, cheap shot on Walker, grow up and keep to the subject
An Engineer - Jun 27, 2010 7:45 AM»

Please, all you laughable experts who believe we can support 6.8
billion
people and industry with rooftop wind turbines, show me your
engineering
diploma and prove that you studied power generation (of any type) to
substantiate your position.

Oh, you never studied engineering? Never solved an energy equation?
Never worked in a nuclear power plant to understand the cost
implications
relative to coal? Never developed oxidizer and scrubber technologies
that
drive down coal emissions? This ignorance must be your reason to deem
"clean coal" an evil catch phrase.

By all means, run for office so that the rest of the state can benefit
from
your unlimited and professional experience. India desperately needs
to
review your alternative power plant design. I am glad to see that you
geniuses have finally proven incorrect the basic energy conservation
equation. Finally, your emotions have defeated science, or at least
jeopardized 1,000 middle class jobs.

What would we do without your wisdom?
sodey - Jun 27, 2010 7:56 AM»

Atomicpop, shouldn't that be "Atomicpoop" based on your all the BS you
spread around?
harleyultra - Jun 27, 2010 7:58 AM»

"The fundamental problem here is the present world business system
does not lend itself to doing what's right. The only thing that
matters is that a profit is made. Until this problem is rectified,
nothing is going to really get better."

The above is ridiculous. Are liberals only able to immediately scream
ban everytime something they dont agree with is in place?? And of
course without thinking (no thinking is bad) of unintended
consequences of actions. What do you suggest to replace the "profit"
motive. Why do you think companies like Johnson Controls are investing
millions in battery technology? So they can give away free batteries?
China had no profit motive until about 15 years ago. Why did they
change? Longing for the soviet collective system to come back? Get
real and quit with the "medical" marijuana.
harleyultra - Jun 27, 2010 8:03 AM»

Atomic - So now can we finaly put to rest that "green" initiatives
kill jobs and there are no job gains to be had!!!! New technologies
take over and kill off jobs in older industries. I remember when I was
told there would be little unemployment in the future because everyone
would have an "internet" job. How's that working out? You talk about
having green loan guarantees, we already have subsidies for green
energy. Where are all these jobs. I guess first you should define
"green" job. Pretty soon its going to mean anyone that wears a green
jumpsuit to work.
harleyultra - Jun 27, 2010 8:20 AM»

Atomic Pop and an Engineer - I recently saw a story on PBS how China
controls up to 90% of mining for rare earth metals. Without these
metals, it is impossible to build high efficiency batteries or wind
turbines. China is currently reducing exports by 6% a years and
warning the U.S that in the future it should expect price increases
and if it does not want to secure another supplier, turbine and
battery production will have to be moved to the source of supply (ie.
China). So Atomic, the "green" jobs are going to be where again? We
have one mine in the U.S for these metals, it has been shutdown and
will take several years to open again and environmentalists are
fighting it, just like they fight transmission lines to get the
"green" power to people who need it. And even when in production, this
one mine will only supply a fraction of what is needed. Without these
metals there are no green jobs. So the deal will be, U.S, you want
green energy, then it will be manufactured in China (by companies like
Johnson Controls who will bring their technology that was funded by
U.S government loans) and exported to the U.S. Thats where the money
from energy costs will go. This whole "green" industry bs is a scam.
They only thing we will be left with is an empty Bucyrus factory like
the steel mills of pittsburgh.
arndog - Jun 27, 2010 8:26 AM»

how is that hope and change working for you now?
harleyultra - Jun 27, 2010 8:27 AM»

Chipad - so the choice is

1. soviet total control of the economy. All land will be confiscated
from private farms. Private property will be outlawed. (Oops sorry all
you organic people that own your own farm, you dont own it anymore).

2. No government at all.

Hmmmmm they're both so tempting, which to choose, which to
choose......................
JSMill - Jun 27, 2010 8:36 AM»

This was going to be a taxpayer bailout of a foreign power company by
pledging taxpayer money to back a loan (i.e., if it defaults, we pay).
I thought most people in this forum were against bailouts. Or are
positions taken in this forum only partisan opportunism with no
logical or ideological consistency?
harleyultra - Jun 27, 2010 8:43 AM»

JSMill - This is not a bailout. The export bank was created to, guess
what, increase exports and help foreign countries buy our products. I
wonder if this loan guranatee would have been turned down if India
wanted to buy a billion dollars worth of UAW built GM cars.

"Or are positions taken in this forum only partisan opportunism with
no logical or ideological consistency?"

If you dont know that by now, I have to ask. Do you know where Arizona
is in relation to Mexico? I think that will be my standard question to
all assinine leftwing commentary.

DrewH - Jun 27, 2010 9:06 AM»

oliver.b...@sierraclub.org

Send him a message and tell him how wrong he is.

But don't be a d-bag or he'll dig his heels in and never change his
mind.
X Man - Jun 27, 2010 9:06 AM»

JSMill where in the article do you see the word bailout? This became
political when Ex-Im Bank's decision was influenced by the Obama
administration's stance on coal energy and as usual the casualties are
American workers.

I just don't understand why we are tolerating what is happening in
Washington D.C. the government is mandating that you purchase
insurance from a private insurance company and if you refuse you will
be fined $750.00 or 2% of your annual income whichever is greater,
industry is going to be forced to buy carbon tax credits from the
government to operate this equates to mob like extortion, NAFTA has
given a green light to move U.S. manufacturing jobs to cheaper labor
and less restricted parts of the world, clearly our political system
is corrupt from top to bottom there will be a tipping point soon and
people WILL take up arms against their oppressors.
fan64 - Jun 27, 2010 9:20 AM»

Just another Democratic intrusion on free enterprise. If I wanted to
be save I'd say a prayer and not ask a democrat.........
cootersat22 - Jun 27, 2010 9:25 AM»

I hope nobody loses a job! Next week Barack Obambinladen is coming to
our state. Let him know what you think about this issue. I'd like to
know how many of these people that are going to lose their jobw voted
for the socialist (refuse to call him a democrat). I bet most of those
people would take their vote back now.
US Citizen - Jun 27, 2010 9:29 AM»

Hey all you union minions that voted for obama I don't feel one bit
sorry for you. You are getting what you deserve. You should be the
first ones layed off. Obama says outright that the coal industry is
dead before the election and you still voted for him. Rubes!

Maybee you can make a wind shovel that runs on solar.
DonMoney - Jun 27, 2010 9:29 AM»

The redistribution of wealth.......

away from the United States.

Don't blame me, I voted for the American.
namanook - Jun 27, 2010 9:34 AM»

Hey what do I care. Let the bastards freeze in Washington. Ask where
Washington gets it electricity from? Is it from the green turbines in
Nebraska? Is it from the batteries made in China? Nope, it is from
Duke and coal fired plants around Washington. So as soon as Washington
stops socially trying to change the economonic community the sooner
things will get done. Bucyrus as most of you do not know also produces
machines to mine copper, iron ore, and other minerals the US needs.
Notice how many companies in the US that makes machines to mine.
(making the distinction between the small mines and mining and the big
mines) Red my lips. There are only 2. There used to be dozens. Get the
picture. Only 2 to go and we will be making machines overseas. (oops
maybe Bucyrus will relocate to China, or Australia, et al.) Like your
food? Then maybe you should start digging the phosphate used in
fertilizer by hand as Bucyrus also makes machines for them also. Maybe
you would like grapes from Chili in the winter? Hey they mine for
fertilizer there too. Sorry no more grapes for you. So guess again
when you want to cut off a company. We cannot go green overnight, We
cannot redo our food economy overnight. We cannot stop all the mining
for minerals we need overnight. So I ask you will having machines from
overseas help us. I say no. Support US companies. Ask Obama and
congress where is the outline on how to accomplish Cap and Trade
beside cutting our economy.
rags66 - Jun 27, 2010 9:42 AM»

Well...I am not a tree hugger but it seems so logical that we as a
society
start moving to a place we are not dependent on very scarce, very
polluting
mined and pumped resources. It seems somehow right that many of the
jobs
that support these means of production will go away.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 9:44 AM»

The real tragedy is Third World countries will continue to build coal
plants. You can be sure , with more electric power available in India,
more US jobs will be lost.
Keele - Jun 27, 2010 9:46 AM»

So folks, how do you like the "Change" you voted for now? Just wait
this is
only the beginning, the job cuts coming from the "messiah's" health
care
bill have not started yet. Sad time for our country.
ZEEZ BREEZE - Jun 27, 2010 9:49 AM» Report abuse

Hey Troll
I thought everything was still Ned Yosts FAULT!
L O L
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 9:52 AM»

"I wonder if this loan guranatee would have been turned down if India
wanted to buy a billion dollars worth of UAW built GM cars."
Probably not because they are not related to coal. By the way BE is
also Union. That is why the jobs are important, they actually pay
something someone can live on
hemmy9 - Jun 27, 2010 9:54 AM»

The Indian company has to buy its equipment from somewhere. Why will
it not buy it from Bucyrus?.. because the Indian company lost its
subsidy from the US Government.

Subsidize green energy jobs – ‘dem stupid liberal tree huggers tink we
can change da environment, um, no, only Jesus can do dat’

Subsidize the construction of coal mining equipment –
'Wahoooooo!!!!!!! Manufacturin Jobs!!!!!!'

Subsidize health care (like every other industrialized country in the
world) – ‘dem stupid liberals is gunna bankrupt our country. Let da
lazy people die!’ (sorry, had to throw in that bit about health care
because someone else brought it up)

Ah, well I’m at it… Spend a trillion or so on a war in Iraq –
‘Wahooooo!!!! Freedom aint free…. Lets give dem terrorists a boot in
da behind!!!!!!!!!!!!!! USA!USA!USA!
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 10:11 AM»
3 0 Click thumb to rate
3
0 Please login to rate Go back 100 years; the republican wooden
carriage makers and covered
wagon builders screamed at the govt.---You will never be able to
create
jobs with these stupid engine driven automobiles. Shortly after that
the
republican auto makers screamed---Why are you wasting time trying to
build those stupid flying machines; they're never going to produce
jobs.
Fast forward another 65 years and those republican slide rule makers
screamed--Why are you trying to build those fancy calculators and
computers; they're never going to produce jobs..Figure it out you nit-
wits. Keep living in your caves.
LACROSSEWIMAN - Jun 27, 2010 10:15 AM»

The people here are so complacent. In Europe they would go to the
streets and burns entire neighborhoods if you touched their welfare
vacation package... Here you can shut down and entire factory and move
it to Mexico and there isn't a peep... Go job government! You're doing
great :) Keep the sheep in line.
WauwatosaMark - Jun 27, 2010 10:16 AM»

hemmy9 ... Subsidize green energy jobs – ‘dem stupid liberal tree
huggers tink we can change da environment, um, no, only Jesus can do
dat’ ...

Before you slur conservatives over opposing 'green jobs' you better
do
your homework. After a 13 year experiment with green jobs, Spain has
concluded that:
>> 2.2 jobs in Spain were lost for every green job created.
>> Every green job created, cost the government of Spain a little over
$560k. (A fact you probably aren't concerned with, as it's always
other
peoples' money you're talking about.

You characterize (in your language) conservatives as stupid. But
people
like you are stupid if you believe Obama's talking points. Spain has
the
data to support it, this will only further hobble our economy.

I for one am proud of my country and worried when I see people like
you
who sign on to every hair-brained idea that sounds appealing. You are
what VI Lenin called a 'useful idiot'. Someone who can be easily
mobilized, but with a few slogans, to take to the streets for change
they
do not really understand.

20 years from now, you will begin to grasp what the liberal 'statists'
did
to this country. But the it will be too late. We'll be Greece.

And by the way yes ... USA!USA!USA!
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 10:29 AM»

Oh, and by the way Mr. an engineer. I have actually worked on coal
fired power plants. I know everything about scrubbers, electrostatic
precipitators. You should know then that we still don't get rid of
mercury
and in most cases we don't capture co2 emissions. Am I saying to get
rid
of coal fired power plants? Absolutely not! But any intelligent
thinking
person would consistently strive to improve; look for alternatives
and
newer technologies. But that my dear man requires progressive
thinking.
Oh, and also there were thousands of jobs created by adding on
precipitators and scrubbers.
TJD - Jun 27, 2010 10:35 AM»

Kiddie porn and the cocaine trade also provide thousands of jobs - yet
no
moral, rational person defends either such "industy," nor does anyone
bemoan the take down of a kingpin in either of those nefarious
sectors.

Some jobs are simply not good for the overall welfare or our way of
life
(with due respect to the fear and pain of unemployment - I'm there
too!).
The only way to repudiate this is to say that climate study scientists
are
wrong - a claim that no lay person can reasonably make. So what's
left?
How about finding an informational source who's objectivity,
brilliance and
accomplishments are beyond repudiation by the rational individual -
ladies
and gentlemen, I give you our very own National Treasure - N.A.S.A.

http://climate.nasa.gov/warmingworld/

Solutions are possible when we stop the irresponsible practice of
assuming
that those with whom we disagree have sinister motives (and thereby
warrant vilification/demonization). The vast majority of people have
their
hearts in the right place, regardless of political affiliation; we all
want
wants best.

As for fossil fuels and Climate Change - as lay person, I'm going to
find the
source for information that best backs up it's claim. College drop-
outs on
cable stations never put men on the moon, or serviced the Hubble
Telescope with space walks; they never created and piloted Mars
rovers,
not did they build and fly the Space Shuttle. But N.A.S.A. did...and
they
have pretty compelling data.

Some jobs are bad jobs. Let's start creating some good ones to take
their
place.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 10:35 AM»

Change goes through three steps. First it is laughed at. Then it is
violently opposed. Then it becomes the only way to do something, until
another change emerges.
Lead will always have to be in gasoline.
Smoking tobacco is safe.
Asbestos is a necessarily component.

Change is a difficult process but it can not be denied.
TJD - Jun 27, 2010 10:40 AM»

P.S. The words "conservative" and "liberal" no longer have any
reference
point in reality and have in fact become nothing more than a form of
derisive
insult. If your contributions to this thread are nothing more than a
desire to
relive life's anxieties by insulting another's contributions- then I
submit to you
that you are actually part of the problem and not the solution.

Amano - Jun 27, 2010 10:44 AM»

Just the beginning my friends, this is exactly what the head clown
wants, we will be living like a third word county soon. American
Exceptionalism is dead and buried. I hope all of you who voted for
this clown rot in _ _ _ _!
WauwatosaMark - Jun 27, 2010 11:03 AM»

TJD .. The vast majority of people have their
hearts in the right place, regardless of political affiliation; we all
want
wants best.

You're right, all people want what's right, but we must be careful of
what
seems right and logical today .. but might not end up such in the
long
run. Take DDT for example

Rachael Carson's 'Silent Spring' caused the Kennedy Administration to
eventually outlaw DDT. It was more a move of political pandering to
the
growing environmental movement than of real science. (Sound a little
like Global Warming?)

Today, experts are repudiating those findings and determining that
DDT
was NOT the cancer causing villan we suspected. The studies were in
fact
flawed (and they KNEW it in the 60's but it served their agenda -
that
sound familiar?).

In the mean time, the damage has been done, millions upon millions of
children have died in the third world (and continue to) because of
insect
borne illness, which would have been eradicated if they'd used DDT.

So, in the end, Rachael Carson saved some song birds and 1/2 a
billion
people died or were sickened.

Worthy of note >>> The banning of DDT was the foundation of the
modern day environmental movement.
Need I say more?
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 11:06 AM»

Another brilliant comment by Amano. Clearly showing his high intellect
and third grade education. First off, over
the past 30 years with 20 of those being controlled by so-called
conservatives; and I really don't know how they
ever got the word conservative because they are clearly not
conservative; They [republitards] have spent like a
drunken sailor consistently raising the federal debt, without paying
anything off, lowering federal regulations on
companies like banks and oil companies. Oh Oh, but please uncle sam
help us out. Pay off our debts, bail us
out!
willfightforfreedom - Jun 27, 2010 11:07 AM»

I wonder if the jobs lost belong to union members who walked the union
line and voted for Barack Hussein Obama.
They would be discovering that there are consequences to those
actions.
minilea - Jun 27, 2010 11:23 AM»

TJD it's obvious that your only income does not rest on a job from
Bucyrus. For my family our entire income does, and we have already
gone through one layoff in the past year. If this deal does not go
through it will be devastating to hundreds of families in Wisconsin.
In this economy there are no "good jobs" or "bad jobs" and equating
working at a company that produces mining equipment with making kiddie
porn is beyond ignorant.

I can tell you that no one in our family voted for Obama. Saying that
Bucyrus employees deserve to be laid off or lose their jobs because
Obama is in office is a blanket statement that does not take into
account that a majority of Bucyrus employees are intelligent informed
voters that did not vote for Obama because of his views on coal
mining.
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 11:23 AM»

Mr. wauwatosa Mark. FIrst off the recovery of our very own national
bird
is directly linked to the ban of DDT. Any intelligent person
understands
that on our great planet their is what is called a food chain. Toxins
especially chemical toxins which take a very long time to break down
work there way up the food chain. Secondly since we stopped using DDT
in our country, I haven't seen a rise of child deaths directy linked
to
insects. Could it be that there is more than just insects causing the
deaths? Did you ever consider the overall health of our citizens and
the
fact that our own stronger immune systems are better able to fight
off
these infections? Thirdly there is another way of dealing with insect
infestations. That is biologically; another words taking natures very
own
way of controlling itself. But once again that would require that
evil
science thing and intelligent thinkers.
tsab4 - Jun 27, 2010 11:37 AM»

why is the government involved in helping private companies. Just
another case of Private companies looking for another government bail
out. Teaparty members stand up and say no!
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 11:39 AM»

Go back 100 years the Republican wooden carriage makers and the
covered wagon makers screamed --Why are you wasting your time and
money trying to build those stupid engine driven autos; they're never
going to produce jobs. Shortly later the republican automakers were
screaming ---Why are you wasting your time and money making those
stupid flying machines; they're never going to create jobs. Fast
forward
65 yrs.. Those republican slide rule makers were screaming-- why are
you wasting your time and money making those stupid calculators and
computers; they're never going to produce jobs. You Republitards stay
in
your caves. In the meantime I will be playing with my high speed
internet , my smart phone my 55" led/lcd flat screen keeping up with
the
future
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 11:42 AM»

I don't think 3 people should take up the morality of coal mining all
on their own. This is the same as the County Board taking up the
boycott resolution. Why do I feel these people have overstepped their
intended roles.
John Casper - Jun 27, 2010 12:31 PM»

WMark, among many inaccuracies, DDT no longer works. Insects adapted
to it.

We mammals have to learn our sustainable place among various food
chains. If you want a real conservative position, that is sustainable,
google and watch youtubes of Joel Salatin and his Polyface Farms in
Virginia.

OT, regarding nukes, among several intractable problems, how do you
keep the waste out of the water table?

"Tainted nuke plant water reaches major NJ aquifer"
http://www.physorg.com/news192527592.html
harleyultra - Jun 27, 2010 1:01 PM»

Rachael Carson's 'Silent Spring' caused the Kennedy "Administration to
eventually outlaw DDT. It was more a move of political pandering to
the growing environmental movement than of real science. (Sound a
little like Global Warming?)

Today, experts are repudiating those findings and determining that DDT
was NOT the cancer causing villan we suspected. The studies were in
fact flawed (and they KNEW it in the 60's but it served their agenda -
that sound familiar?)."

Wauwatosa - good point. I am familiar with "silent spring". I also saw
a program on PBS which took up the story about 30 years later. And
what sounds familiar today as with "silent spring" is that the
environmetalists, like today, refused to admit that some people died
or were caused harm from diseases like malaria because DDT was
outlawed. These same people today will refuse to admit that climate
change policy has anything to do with job losses even at Bucyrus.
We're all going to be wearing our green jumpsuits on the green train
on the way to our green jobs.

John Caspar - why dont you just euthanize yourself as your
contrubution to the planet. MMSD could probably make some sort of
fertilizer out of you to promote organic farming. Maybe at polyface
farms where they dont believe in meat inspection and all those nasty
regulations like not being able to butcher meat in the open air for
sale to the public. Funny how the left wants an inspector at every
business except theirs.
Hard2Rock - Jun 27, 2010 1:09 PM»

How's this hope and change you voted for working out. 1000's of job
lost, lower tax revenue, more people unemployeed. Thank God I didn't
vote for the idiot.
harleyultra - Jun 27, 2010 1:13 PM»

" You Republitards stay in your caves. In the meantime I will be
playing with my high speed internet , my smart phone my 55" led/lcd
flat screen keeping up with the future"

Snazzy - Arizona is

1. On the border with France

2. On the border with Canada

3. The place where they make the iced tea.

4. Someplace north of a northern state.

5. Ask Peggy West, democrat intelligentsia extraordinaire who because
she is a sponsor of a boycott bill, hispanic and has a mexican flag on
her desk, would surely know.
JamesBurkes - Jun 27, 2010 1:25 PM»

"About 300 of those jobs are at the Bucyrus plant in South Milwaukee,
where the company has 1,410 employees and its headquarters. The
remaining jobs are spread across 13 states, including Illinois,
Minnesota and Indiana."

So, the jobs are being lost in WI, IL, MN, IN, among others. It
strikes me that there is at least one thing these states have in
common: they all voted for Obombah. So, let me ask you, how's that
hopey-changey stuff workin' out for y'all? But remember, when you're
standing in the unemployment line, just keep saying to yourself...

Hope and Change (the change in your pockets will be all you'll have
left)

Change We Can Believe In (if we believe in going broke)

Yes We Can! (go on unemployment)

We Are The Ones We've Been Waiting For (waiting for idiots)
US Citizen - Jun 27, 2010 1:29 PM»

Trent writes "Change is a difficult process but it can not be denied."

This is were there is a big difference between libs and conservatives,
A lib thinks progress can only happen if the Government forces it,
where the people that built this country to be the envy of the world
know it is free enterprise in the private sector that will come up
with the new inovative ideas. Henry Ford, Bill gates etc. didn't work
for the government.

By the government forcing this type of anti business rulings it will
kill the economy even worse. There are thousands of companies spending
millions of their own dollars working to find an alternative energy
source, The first one with a real source that works when it's cloudy
and not windy will win and be a very rich company. Then it will create
employment in the true fasion not in a make work type for a system
that will have a net btu or kilowat loss to cost.
JamesBurkes - Jun 27, 2010 1:31 PM»

"In the meantime I will be playing with my high speed
internet , my smart phone my 55" led/lcd flat screen keeping up with
the
future"

All powered by...electricity, 59% of which comes from...burning coal!
LOL! You're responsible for polluting the planet, running all those
"keeping up with the future" gadgets. Oh, the horror!

Well, short-sighted one, just be careful, the throat you cut may be
your own.
TJD - Jun 27, 2010 2:36 PM»

Also of Interest:

http://environment.change.org/blog/vi
TJD - Jun 27, 2010 2:37 PM»

Opps - this is what I meant:

http://environment.change.org/blog/view/why_dont_americans_believe_in_cli
mate_change
AtomicPop - Jun 27, 2010 2:39 PM»

Again I have to say how interesting it is that to hear posters decry
"big government's" intervention in the issue, and simultaneously
declare, "Keep your big government hands off my business subsidy".
Can't have it both ways kiddies.
DreamPolice - Jun 27, 2010 3:20 PM»

> By the government forcing this type of anti business rulings it will kill the
> economy even worse.

So Bucyrus can't be competitive without a Federal loan guarantee?

If they can't be competitive, why should the Federal government and my
tax dollars be used to support a non-competitive industry and
project?

If they can be competitive without the loan, then don't use my tax
dollars on this project!

DreamPolice - Jun 27, 2010 3:24 PM»

@minilea:
> TJD it's obvious that your only income does not rest on a job from
> Bucyrus. For my family our entire income does, and we have already
> gone through one layoff in the past year. If this deal does not go through
> it will be devastating to hundreds of families in Wisconsin.

Guess what? Your job is already as good as gone.

"We are going to fight hard to keep this order, but frankly, India can
probably find better partners than the U.S. to develop its energy
sector." - - Bucyrus International CEO Tim Sullivan
Bill Dollar - Jun 27, 2010 3:26 PM»

Brings to mind the coal fired plant that had all its permits pulled in
the 4- corners area of the Navajo Nation by this administration. A
whole lot jobs lost to the Navajo’s over that.

Wisconsin voters have the opportunity to signal their displeasure with
the Bucyrus decision by aborting Feingold’s Senate career.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 3:34 PM»

US Citizen,
There is no one brush to paint conservative and liberal people. We'll
see more of this as the tea party gets more members.
Change can not be denied = you can't stop change.
You're statement about the US being the envy of the world is quite
comical. I deal with people all over the world most every week. Most
Europeans I talk with find the US uncouth, violent and backward. Maybe
you missed the world coverage of the 20million people who protested
Mr. Bush's war plan. This Country was the envy of the world before
Vietnam. What this countries Greatest Generation did in the 40's and
50's will probably never be repeated. Change can not be denied.
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 4:00 PM»

I give up. Having an intelligent dialog with a republitard is simply
impossible. Because obviously there are none!
John Casper - Jun 27, 2010 4:14 PM»

Citizen, will you let us know when the benefits of tax breaks for the
top 1% will begin to "trickle down?" All the Bush taxcuts remain in
place.
dad29 - Jun 27, 2010 4:40 PM»

"Secondly since we stopped using DDT
in our country, I haven't seen a rise of child deaths directy linked
to
insects"

You're right, snazzy1.

The children who are dying are just 'little brown people' overseas.
Why worry about THEM?
An Engineer - Jun 27, 2010 4:55 PM» Report abuse

Snazzy1 -

You, Sir, are GRAVELY misleading this audience to conclude that
mercury-
filled smoke is pumped out the stack of a coal fired plant without
any
abatement, in which statement you also try to pass yourself off as an
expert.

You created this distorted statement either because you did not
yourself
participate in recent inventions that abate this mercury OR because
you do
NOT believe that our fellow human brothers and sisters (in India)
should be
allowed to evolve and advance their way of life. Which is it?

As you ponder your answer, please also answer my INITIAL question -
where are the prints to YOUR alternate power plant design that EX-IM
Bank
would have agreed to back? Nothing?

You REALLY need to review modern developments in this mercury
abatement area (i.e. the ICPE proceedings, 2007), which I assume did
not
involve your "expertise", or you would have acknowledged their
existence.

Finally, the main problem with your argument is that you are
intentionally
telling India to WORSEN their INEVITABLE carbon footprint by having
them
buy less power- efficient excavation equipment from China, that
equipment
source currently incapable of building this machinery to the power
efficiency standards that the U.S. reached decades ago. How could any
sane person conclude that this alternate scenario will help the
environment?

Please, explain yourself.

Sincerely,

an ENGINEER
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 5:09 PM»

dad29,
You are implying the lack of ddt caused starvation?
jpsamp1 - Jun 27, 2010 5:26 PM» Report abuse

I just sold my Bucyrus stock on Friday. I wonder if it's going down on
Monday?

Buying opportunity?
namanook - Jun 27, 2010 5:31 PM»

Ask where Washington gets it electricity from? Is it from the green
turbines in Nebraska? Is it from the batteries made in China? Nope, it
is from Duke Energy and AEP and coal fired plants around Washington.
So as soon as Washington stops socially trying to change the
economonic community the sooner things will get done. Bucyrus as most
of you do not know also produces machines to mine copper, iron ore,
and other minerals the US needs. Notice how many companies in the US
that makes machines to mine. (making the distinction between the small
mines and mining and the big mines) Red my lips. There are only 2.
There used to be dozens. Get the picture. Only 2 to go and we will be
making machines overseas. (oops maybe Bucyrus will relocate to China,
or Australia, et al.) Like your food? Then maybe you should start
digging the phosphate used in fertilizer by hand as Bucyrus also makes
machines for them also. Maybe you would like grapes from Chili in the
winter? Hey they mine for fertilizer there too. Sorry no more grapes
for you. So guess again when you want to cut off a company. We cannot
go green overnight, We cannot redo our food economy overnight. We
cannot stop all the mining for minerals we need overnight. So I ask
you will having machines from overseas help us. I say no. Support US
companies. Ask Obama and congress where is the outline on how to
accomplish Cap and Trade beside cutting our economy.
AtomicPop - Jun 27, 2010 5:41 PM»

Namanook (and others), "...support US companies" is a fine enough
sentiment but nothing more than a throw away tag line. US companies
should be supported only if their products are competitive in the
world market WITHOUT government subsidies. If they (and their
products) cannot compete without being propped up by the American
taxpayer, then they should not exist. To subsidize non-competitive
companies is nothing but a grossly inefficient use of capital.
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 5:41 PM»

First off Mr. an ENGINEER, now that everyone knows that you are the
renowned expert in mercury
abatement and I assume you yourself created this invention, perhaps
you would like to share with us
little people how your invention works. Secondly , if you were to
accurately read my blog; I said I
personally realize that we need to have coal fired plants. Perhaps I
didn't make that clear enough
for you. Quite frankly I believe we should become more active in
nuclear plants. But that still
doesn't take away the fact that an intelligent person ALWAYS looks at
other alternatives and ways to
become more efficient; more environmentally conscious etc. I wonder if
you would care to live in
China and breathe there polluted air and drink there polluted water
and eat from there polluted soil?
When has it become a bad thing that we have clean water and clean air
to breathe? Do you believe
there is any chance of a connection that the increase of asthma in
children is related to air pollution?
Do you have kids? Does the future of our planet concern you? Or are
you just that self centered
that you only look at yourself and your life at the moment?
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 5:43 PM»

Nice goofy rant. There is a concern about coal plants, not the
company.
WauwatosaMark - Jun 27, 2010 5:48 PM»

Snazzy1... "Secondly since we stopped using DDT
in our country, I haven't seen a rise of child deaths directy linked
to
insects"

Okay .. how about West Nile?? Have you heard about that perhaps? That
is a mosquito borne virus that's starting to get noticed in this
county and
it kills. Third world countries STILL deal with malaria and Dengue
fever.

My early point was this .. before we sign off on 'hysterical science'
examine the unintended consequences of those actions. DDT saved
lives.
Environmentalists patted themselves on the backs for potentially
saving
lives, when in fact the consequences show over 40 years the ban cost
lives.

If we ban carbon based fuels, what effect will it have on the cost of
producing food for poorer countries? Will it cause more starvation?

Ethanol was another 'hysterical scientific' breakthrough. Great, we
don't
use imported oil .. sounds nice .. except we now know it takes 1.25
gallons of oil to make one gallon of ethanol. Some savings! Plus it
drove
the price of all grains up such that food became too costly for people
in
poorer countries to obtain. Hence more starvation.

It's easy for progressives to discuss feel good esoteric subjects
like
global warming on a full stomach and with access to good health care.
Third world people don't have that luxury.

Examine the consequences of your actions.
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 5:58 PM»

Oh, and by the way Mr. an engineer. I have personally built power
plants
designed by so-called engineers. I can tell you it's hard to believe
the
enormous amount of mistakes these engineers make that a little man
like me has to bring to their attention to fix. If the general
population
really knew what went on at the new construction of the 2.4 billion
dollar
Oak Creek Plant they should be concerned. And this my dear man
because of a lousy design in the first place and just inaccurate
engineering. What concerns me more is if this same contractor starts
building nukes!
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 6:11 PM»

There were and are alternatives to DDT. The idea that a blanket ban
was wrong may look like it now, but to error on the safe side was the
idea. As for other countries, I believe they still used DDT. Our
environment is much better then it was in the '60s. We don't have
incinerators pumping out dioxins every few miles. I remember the
uproar about landfills and the cost. It proved to be worth the
effort.
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 6:14 PM»

Wauwatosa Mark, I have to say I agree with you on looking at the
bigger
picture. Remember there are always extremists on the left and on the
right, but don't lump the majority of progressives with the
extremists. I
really don't believe the views of the far left ever really accomplish
much
of anything; especially if it doesn't add up. Common sense should
prevail. I was always taught that some of the most intelligent people
are
the best listeners. Also namanook you make some good points, but lets
not forget to always look to the future. Be progressive or be left
behind
gthog61 - Jun 27, 2010 6:14 PM»

Didn't Wisconsin vote for hopey-dopey change?

Have a big steaming pile of it!
free tibet - Jun 27, 2010 6:19 PM»

India does not need more pollution that feeds worldwide climate
change. We also should not be shipping over used electronics across
the Pacific to keep our own country clean. Game playing that Russia
and China will compete is stupid. How many made in China or Russian
items really last? Let India buy from the countries with items always
in need of repair, it will keep their pollution machine in check.

Bucyrus build some wind towers or green technology. World is not going
to strip mine everything so find another product line.
WauwatosaMark - Jun 27, 2010 6:28 PM»

Trent611 "There were and are alternatives to DDT. The idea that a
blanket ban was wrong may look like it now, but to error on the safe
side was the idea.

Okay, let's have a little turn around here Trent. Say I accept your
premise the politician's of the 60's were simply: 'erroring on the
safe
side' as you say.

So now let's draw the same conclusion about invading Iraq ... as an
'error on the safe side' that Saddam didn't actually have weapons of
mass destruction.

Does that argument pass your same 'smell test'? Or is that somehow
different. And if you want to argue 'degree', I'd say a global ban on
DDT
has killed many more people from the resulting mosquito borne
illnesses
that the war in Iraq.

So where does your 'being on the safe side' fall? I'll tell you where
it
might fall, 'being on the safe side' is an open ended argument that
can be
used all the way up to marching people into Hitler's gas chambers.

And that is what is wrong with science today. Subject to being overly
politicized and quite capable of being moulded to fit the 'politic du
jour.'

Dangerous thinking my friend - the safe side!

Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 6:35 PM»

That is absurd.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 6:36 PM»

But I got a good laugh out of it.
WauwatosaMark - Jun 27, 2010 6:39 PM»

Great defense of your argument. I'm totally swayed!
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 6:40 PM»

"So now let's draw the same conclusion about invading Iraq ... as an
'error on the safe side' that Saddam didn't actually have weapons of
mass destruction."
That's pretty funny. Maybe you are studying at the Peggy West
Institute.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 6:43 PM»

If there were anything logical about your statement , I can't see
it... sorry. It's just too much of a stretch.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 6:57 PM»

We build custom designed machines and send them all over the world. .
All the operations are designed to "error on the safe side". Tomorrow,
I can't wait to explain how doing this can lead people to a gas
chamber.
You missed my point completely, it's okay. I got a good laugh.
An Engineer - Jun 27, 2010 7:04 PM»

Snazzy1 - So you could not even Google the link that I provided. Too
lazy, or
are you just unable or unwilling to re-examine your own thought
process by
reading public information?
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 7:24 PM»

Please, an engineer share with us what you seem to want to withhold. I
by
the way am not to lazy and am willing to listen to anybody and I have
also
gone to your physics web-site; unable to find your mercury abatement
procedures. Feel free to either give me a direct link or just post it
here;
those findings, that I am so obviously am unaware of.
dbaur - Jun 27, 2010 8:20 PM»

Everyone that is able to, must go to Racine to the townhall meeting
and let Obama know that he must change his ideas about coal to prevent
the Bucyrus calamity, or he can kiss a second term and the control of
congress good bye!

Regarding Doyle's comments, too little to late!
Nobody in Washington gives a crap what he has to say.
dbaur - Jun 27, 2010 8:24 PM»

Oh and by the way all of you environmental wackos on this forum topic,
Please Sod Off!
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 8:45 PM»

Yes I know, dbauer science is above your intellect we won 't go
there.
An Engineer - Jun 27, 2010 9:10 PM»

Snazzy1:

You could find this and other articles yourself.

http://books.google.com/books?id=AtntGjgu-
IQC&pg=PA710&lpg=PA710&dq=oxidizer+power+plant+mercury&sourc
e=bl&ots=4ch5YXT7pG&sig=SkS7TDOQQ2_YQKBxktpceJa8w0U&hl=en&
ei=a_UnTMC9OMT_lgeT3szWBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnu
m=7&ved=0CCkQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=oxidizer%20power%20plant
%20mercury&f=false
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 9:19 PM»

Sorry, engineer; I am not going through every single google book and
have
you take me on some wild goose chase. Please feel free to enlighten
me.
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 9:21 PM»

But really besides this sir; You have not made mention of any of the
other
issues I brought up
dbaur - Jun 27, 2010 9:25 PM»

Snazzy, why aren't you in Toronto with the rest of the Anarchists? Or
are you?
navcdr - Jun 27, 2010 9:30 PM»

Three guys on Meet the Press said "Amen" when the panelist at the end
of the show said "the only way we are going to get out of Afganistan
and out of the Middle East is: to get off foreign oil. He did not say
coal but I am sure he meant it. Both are huge CO2 producers
contaminating the air we breath.

What's more important? Jobs or breathing?
What's more important? War or Peace?
navcdr - Jun 27, 2010 9:39 PM»

Bucyrus employs 15,000 people in Wisconsin. 1,000 jobs may be lost.
Nobody is saying that is not a big deal. It is. But let's face it.
That is only 1/15th of the company. The future is not in coal. Coal is
the energy of the past. It is dirty. There is no such thing as clean
coal, just as there is no such thing as clean oil.

The future is in alternative energy. Bucyrus has to change. They will,
and the alternative energy products they produce will generate many
more than the 1,000 jobs lost.
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 9:42 PM»

dbaur; I'm still in my country trying to protect it from nincomepoops
like
you. And I won't give up on my country, I'm sure I could find a 3rd
world
country with the education similar to yours where you should fit in
comfortably.
dbaur - Jun 27, 2010 9:46 PM»

Snazzy! Democratic Match Dating Personals Profile:Just a college
student. I like to have fun, and love to talk about anything. I am
very open-minded. I was born and raised a democrat, and later when I
started to develop my own morals and ideas, it was the confirmed that
this would be the party that I identified myself with.

Snazzy! you haven't graduated from College yet and you Pretend to know
what is good for the working people in this country. How open minded
are you? If your Parents or Parent worked for Bucyrus would you be
Anti coal or ProCoal?
moony9472 - Jun 27, 2010 10:02 PM»

Wow. It's amazing how quickly some people are willing to throw their
friends and neighbors into the unemployment line for the sake of being
"progressive."

This plant in India will get built. Other nations don't have the
compulsion that some in the United States have about holding back on
coal usage. So the question is, would you rather have the economic
opportunity in this India plant be seized by an American company -
read Milwaukee, as in directly benefiting our local populace and
economy - or handed off to a foreign operation on the altar of
ideological purity?

WauwatosaMark - Jun 27, 2010 10:09 PM»

Trent 611 ... If there were anything logical about your statement , I
can't see it... sorry. It's just too much of a stretch ...

You're right, my argument was an extrapolation and on the surface
absurd. However, think back about the Nazi's. Goebbels spent a lot of
time using science to justify Arian superiority and ethnic cleansing
of the
Jews, homosexuals, mentally handicapped, etc.. That lead to mass
extermination. The purpose of my rant is to remind people to be
suspicious of science, especially when politicians seize upon it to
promote an agenda.

Sir Paul McCartney tells us anyone who questions "Global Warming" is
the same as someone who denies the Holocaust. So ... discussion is no
long allowed? Questions can no longer be asked? Since it's been
written
about often enough .. what .. we now accept it as fact and move on
with
our lives? In the meantime 1000 jobs will be lost. 1000 families will
be
impacted, but we should not question Obama's premise because he says
it is so?

Here's another quote from Hitler's Minster of Propaganda. Remember
this
one, because history is our most honest teacher ...

... "If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will
eventually come to believe it. The lie can be maintained only for
such
time as the State can shield the people from the political, economic
and/or military consequences of the lie. It thus becomes vitally
important
for the State to use all of its powers to repress dissent, for the
truth is
the mortal enemy of the lie, and thus by extension, the truth is the
greatest enemy of the State.” Joseph Goebbels 1937

Politicians are the enemy .. not each other!
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 10:17 PM»

A Clockwork Orange
WauwatosaMark - Jun 27, 2010 10:24 PM»

See, it didn't take us all that long to get on the same wave length,
did it?
Four or five nasty go rounds, but we got there.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 10:25 PM»

"How open minded are you? If your Parents or Parent worked for Bucyrus
would you be Anti coal or ProCoal? '
Open minded? You're views on things like the environment would be
based on your parents paycheck?..Help me out here.
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 10:26 PM»

dbaur, you don't have a clue who I am, on top of that if you care to
read
some of my other postings you would realize that I along with other
so-
called liberals like Doyle and Kohl and I'm sure Feingold; that have
common sense would like to see that Bucyrus is able to go forward on
this deal. Also I think you need to read some of my other posts to get
a
better understanding where i am coming from. As far as knowing what
is
good for the working people of this country; Damn straight I know
what
is right, because I am one. Just because jobs are involved doesn't
mean
you have to be stupid, because jobs are always involved. However this
country needs to move in the right direction!
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 10:32 PM»

Wauwatosa Mark--I think you should do more reading on scientific
theory.
Pretty difficult to dismiss; if not impossible.
WauwatosaMark - Jun 27, 2010 10:38 PM»

Trent611 ... I only want to know what's true and best for my
children/grandchildren. Then I will sacrifice anything to meet that
end as
I have over the last 59 years of my life, building a better world for
them,
for as you see, I brought them into this world and I am bound to look
out
for them.

If sacrificing my job (say at Bucyrus) TODAY gives me a guarantee it
will
better my grandchildrens' lives down the road ... in a heartbeat
mister ..
in a heartbeat!

But ... if you're asking me to participate in destroying their future,
by
racking up uncontrollable debt, that I must blindly trust you, but it
will all
be alright because you say it will ... I'll fight you tooth and nail.

Sorry, I do not believe those in office today have my grandchildrens'
best
interests at heart, only their own.
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 10:56 PM»

Wauwatosa Mark--that debt you are talking about has largely come from
your republicans. Currently Obama is doing nothing that Reagan didn't
do--spend money. The difference is that Reagan didn't have to; seeing
that the debt to GDP ratio was only about 50%, whereas Obama does
have to just to get this country moving and still now the debt to GDP
ratio
is around 80% a far cry from our highest of 120% just after ww2.
Interestingly every Republican administration has added to the debt
since
Reagan. The only ones paying down have been Dems.
snazzy1 - Jun 27, 2010 10:58 PM»

I also think you should do more reading on classical and keynesian
economics--Wauwatosa Mark
namanook - Jun 27, 2010 10:59 PM»

Well, Well, Well, For the good of the environment we should fall on
our sword. Problem is the latest Washington regime (Say Obama) has to
my knowledge not produced a plan to replace the existing fuel mix.
What I have heard is we need to go green, replace the carbon, tax the
dirty producers etc. What I have not seen or heard is how to do this.
To my knowledge to this day if we use all the wind power available it
will only give us about 15-20% electricity. I looked up and found the
2008 DOE National Fuel Mix. Hydro and others 3.5%, Hydro 5.9%, Nuclear
19.6%, Natural Gas 21.3%, and low and behold 48.6% is coal. Remember
coal is not only used for electricity but coal for iron, chemicals,
and highway surfaces, and tires. So if anyone can tell me that coal is
all bad, then how are we to immediately remove almost 50% of our fuel
in the US and replace it and it's use in other industries. An answer
is needed on how long it will take to reduce the coal consumption to
manageable levels? Has the present administration given a deadline?
Has the administration answered what are we to do with all the coal we
presently have? Why can we not use coal as in Europe? As far as the
Bucyrus sale of machines to India, the US has decided what is good for
India, not asking if they want to build a coal plant or not. I am sure
they will. It is for an expanding industrial economy the most
efficient fuel. That being said who is it to say who will build the
machines that dig the coal? For all those who complain we are imposing
our values on other countries here is a prime example. Does India tell
us how to manage our fuel issues? The Bucyrus machine seems like a
business only sale. I am sure the alternatives will be sure to have
India find another source for the machines. Until we see a timetable
to stop digging coal in the world I suggest we do not try an bankgupt
the businesses in the energy field who sell to other nations than the
US.
YAFF1 - Jun 27, 2010 11:07 PM»

I'm not sure whether the decision to not subsidize Bucyrus' business
is good one or not. Sometimes I envy the simple certainty of so many
of the "contributors" to this "dialogue." (Distrust certainty.)

This is a probably a zero-sum game and Bucyrus' loss will be the gain
a foreign competitor. So, from a strictly economic standpoint, this
decision is likely be a loser for the U.S.

From a policy-perspective, there no imperative for the government to
underwrite private enterprise. It certainly wouldn't be a position
supported by any sort of conservative -- at least not if the word
means what it used to mean...

On that note:

TJD, while I probably don't agree with your policy prescriptions, to
the following post I can only say, "Amen, brother!"

"P.S. The words "conservative" and "liberal" no longer have any
reference
point in reality and have in fact become nothing more than a form of
derisive insult. If your contributions to this thread are nothing more
than a desire to relive life's anxieties by insulting another's
contributions- then I submit to you that you are actually part of the
problem and not the solution. "

What he said.
YAFF1 - Jun 27, 2010 11:09 PM»

By the way, silliest digressions of the weekend?

Seemingly sincere debates about DDT on a story about Bucyrus.

Yikes.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 11:15 PM»

YAFF1,
A big thanks from all the readers for straightening everything out.
Your insight is always needed.
Thanks again,
Peggy West
hemmy9 - Jun 27, 2010 11:30 PM»

I think a more fitting title to this article would be “US to stop
subsidizing coal power plants in India in exchange for US contracts.”
This seems to be right up the tea parties ally… But the writer of the
article presented the information in a partisan way to fire up the
‘Real-Americans.’ I can only assume he fanaticizes about being a cult-
like FoxNews anchor.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 11:36 PM»

"I'm not sure whether the decision to not subsidize Bucyrus' business
is good one or not."
If you read the first sentence of the article, you will see the issue
is not about subsidizing anything. Try to understand the first
sentence. Then please go on with more advice and deep thought.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 11:44 PM»

"I'm not sure whether the decision to not subsidize Bucyrus' business
is good one or not."
Three negatives in one sentence wouldn't get past a 3rd grade teacher.
Please give us more of your worldly insights.
Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 11:49 PM»

"This is a probably a zero-sum game and Bucyrus' loss will be the gain
a foreign competitor. So, from a strictly economic standpoint, this
decision is likely be a loser for the U.S."
Well now! Who would have thought of that!
YAFF1 - Jun 27, 2010 11:52 PM»

Trent 611

Really?

A loan guarantee is not a subsidy?

Really?

Don't be simple.

Here is a quick illustrative quiz.

Q: Is Bucyrus' marginal cost of capital higher or lower with a loan
guarantee?

A: Lower

Q: Is it possible to assign a monetary value to a lower marginal
borrowing cost?

A: Duh.

Use your head.
YAFF1 - Jun 28, 2010 12:00 AM»

Trent 611

Wait, I just realized, you're the DDT guy!

This is great!

You just made my night.
Trent 611 - Jun 28, 2010 12:14 AM»

Oh,, you've already impressed me.

snazzy1 - Jun 28, 2010 12:15 AM»

Actually he's not, that was Wauwatosa Mark--yaff1
Trent 611 - Jun 28, 2010 12:18 AM»

"Wait, I just realized, you're the DDT guy!"
Not much gets past you.
YAFF1 - Jun 28, 2010 12:19 AM»

Sorry. I should have said that Trent 611 was ONE of the silly DDT
guys...

"Trent 611 - Jun 27, 2010 6:11 PM
There were and are alternatives to DDT. The idea that a blanket ban
was wrong may look like it now, but to error on the safe side was the
idea. As for other countries, I believe they still used DDT. Our
environment is much better then it was in the '60s. We don't have
incinerators pumping out dioxins every few miles. I remember the
uproar about landfills and the cost. It proved to be worth the effort.
"
WauwatosaMark - Jun 28, 2010 12:33 AM»

Snazzy1 ... I also think you should do more reading on classical and
keynesian economics--Wauwatosa Mark

Oh really sir. Let's see ... Keynesian economics (that would be John
Maynard Keynes, greatly admired by FDR) was the theorist that the
government must spent to stimulate the economy in a period of
sustained economic contraction. Hmmm, on that basis alone and since
no
politician has ever sought to restrain spending, we be in one long
Keynesian slow down all the way back to JFK.

And stop blaming Bush, it's a feeble grasp. I've read your postings,
you're smarter than that. If you want to insist this is a Dem vs
Repub
argument, have at it, knock yourself out, if it helps you sleep
better, who
am I to pop your overly simplified bubble? But that's a 'non thinkers'
cop-
out. Our problems go WAY beyond simple party affiliation now. These
roots sink deep into the halls of Washington with lobbyists, special
interest groups (aka 'self interest' groups) and career political
hacks.

All else is rationalization, granting a pass to those in power.
Trent 611 - Jun 28, 2010 12:40 AM»

Right you are! Again!
So the discussion was about trusting governments which would be part
of the subject involving Mr. Obama's and loan guarantees for coal
projects. But seeing as you can not understand the first sentence of
the article, I can see how you'd fine it out of place. But that's
okay, your insights are remarkable.
Trent 611 - Jun 28, 2010 12:46 AM»
0 1 Click thumb to rate
0
1 Please login to rate YAFF1
Trust me... this line is a classic!

"I'm not sure whether the decision to not subsidize Bucyrus' business
is good one or not."
WauwatosaMark - Jun 28, 2010 12:48 AM»

Trent611, thank you.
I do tend to digress. And all digressions lead to Washington.
It has been a pleasure discussing this f**ked up world with you.
Good night!
YAFF1 - Jun 28, 2010 12:56 AM»

Trent 611

I called the DDT discussion a silly digression precisely because the
article has nothing to do with trusting government.

Who trusts any government overly much these days?

To the substance of the matter:

It is not at all clear that the U.S. federal government should have
any role to play in subsidizing power plants in India -- even, if the
subsidy results in job growth in the U.S.

However, I cannot say that every subsidy is bad policy. The real world
is more complicated than that. Still, we ought to be generally
distrustful of public money used to prop up private enterprises.

Ought we not?
delafield - Jun 28, 2010 1:02 AM»

Why doesn't the government in India guarantee the loan? Why should
American taxpayers be on the hook for a power plant in India?
Al Lindro - Jun 28, 2010 1:19 AM»

When the incoming President has said in his campaign that he'd do
what
he could to make it impossible for anyone in the coal industry to be
profitable (stay in business) I suppose some thought that was just
idle
talk ... that the role of government in this country didn't extend all
the
way to determining whether Company A or XYZ Corporation "deserved"
to exist and what employees would be put out on the street. Well, now
we can be pretty sure that this President DOES claim that power.

Let's hope he doesn't find out about the environmental effect of cows
farting, or people drinking beer and eating bratwurst, or the risks
associated with motorcycles, or all those chemicals SJ Johnson uses
in
their products, or decides that driving more than 20 miles to a
Packers
game is a waste of resources. If so, we may all be moving to the
desert
to make a living putting up solar panels.
Tyrell Track Master - Jun 28, 2010 8:41 AM»

I just don't buy this. There will continue to be huge opportunities
for Bucyrus to make money on other mining opportunities. Rare earth
metals are the next rush.

I think Bucyrus is raising a tempest in a teapot here to get back at
the administration's stance on coal - which is frankly too weak in my
opinion - and to blame it on environmentalists. That's a shameful
ploy.

We need to get off coal, PERIOD. The sooner we start the better we'll
be - economically as well as environmentally!
JNorton45 - Jun 28, 2010 8:47 AM»

According to the Wall Street Journal of the 28th, Reliance Power, the
Indian company who was the potential customer of BE, has made the
decision not to buy the BE equipment because of the XM Bank decision.
That ship has sailed to China or Russia. Did the Obama Administration
think that stopping an American company from getting the deal would
stop the Reliance coal fired power plant? If they did they are at best
stupid and at worst naive to the ways of the rest of the world.

All politics are local. With it's decisions the XM Bank has handed
Wisconsin Republican candidates the perfect bat to beat down any
Democratic candidate in the State for 2010 and again for the
Presidency in 2012. Politically it was the dumbest thing that anyone
in the Obama administration could have done in Wisconsin. It is a
disaster for the Democrats and a windfall for the Republicans. The
State will turn to the Republicans for a new Governor and Senator.
snazzy1 - Jun 28, 2010 8:57 AM»

jnorton --There's your first mistake believing everything out of the
mouth of
Murdoch, much like reading the nat. enquirer
bald n broke - Jun 28, 2010 9:12 AM»

China, since 2008, is opening 250 coal fired power plants...all
without complying to the international standard in which the plant in
India would. This plant will be supplied with mining equipment from
somewhere. Amazing. I happen to work at one of the suppliers. We just
hired 4 people to help out with the manufacturing of this equipment.
Well guess what; instead of 4 more people who would be paying payroll
taxes and spending money, if this order is canceled, they are all gone
and most likely a few more. Those firms in China and Russia will be
reap the benefit of our short-sighted stupidity. This will send a
message to all over the world, if you mine coal or other "dirty
minerals" go buy your heavy industry machines somewhere else...
wadevrman - Jun 28, 2010 9:15 AM»

At the risk of sounding infantile, [ the previous conversations altho
knoledgable, come off as a little over studied.] Forgive me. Mr.
Sullivan at Bucyrus, but Please focus your energy and talent on things
that can be done easily, and out in the open, to immediatly infuse
employment and production of machinery/equipment on a smaller scale.
Things this country needs right now. In the brand new plant built
under your watch maybe what Bucyrus needs most, is a brand new vision.
Bucyrus could be giant, and Tim, you could take us there. Build a tram
way in South Milwaukee, or a pod car system. Driven By electric, [The
two new power units, in oak creek still not running but will be soon].
Simple solutions to high tech problems. INNOVATE. Create the right
model and investment will come. By the way I could use a job.
JNorton45 - Jun 28, 2010 9:45 AM»

Just out of curiosity, have we had any reports on the number of birds
and bats killed by wind turbines? Just a question on full costing.
duckmanpd - Jun 28, 2010 9:57 AM»

I hope all you people know that there are about 70 years of natural
gas left , and 600 years of coal , did you know power plants can buy
scrubbers to capture 93-97% of all sulfer emited from the smoke
stacks !, lets let the power plants burn the coal and clean it, and
let the residential people have the rest of the natural gas that is
left. there is absoutely nothing wrong with coal power plants if you
clean the air before it leaves the plant.there is not enough wind and
solar to replace all of the coal burning power plants in the world and
third world countries will allways go after the cjheapest form of
energy, and fusion is not here yet.
LARFRANCO - Jun 28, 2010 10:14 AM»

FIND WAYS TO HANDLE SMOKE STACK EMMISSIONS AND HEAT.....
stfranlit - Jun 28, 2010 10:27 AM»

Its truly amazing, Doyle objects? Isn't he the one that signed
combined reporting into law and is chasing businesses out of the
state? And when did Herb Kohl ever do anythig productive for the State
of WI? And Tom Barrett is going to "press" Obama on this? Barrett
can't run Milwaukee much less the State of WI. Good Grief!!!!!!!!
MilwDave - Jun 28, 2010 10:58 AM»

We are now seeing the results of the reckless actions of voters
electing a radical left wing administration led by a president with no
experience. Now that the damage is coming home the local lefty
politicians are doing 180 degree turnarounds in their support to avoid
getting caught up in the voter's anger. I would remind the voters that
Doyle, Feingold, Kohl and Barrett are all big cheerleaders of the
Obama administration and need to be held accountable.

This is only one example of the damage these radicals are inflicting
with their wacko beliefs.

CarpieD - Jun 28, 2010 11:43 AM»

I have been laid-off 3 times in my adult working life. In all 3 cases,
Republican administrations were in office. (Ford, Reagan and Bush II)
The economy was in shambles in all 3 cases. In 2008 I changed
direction (somewhat) by being hired by a consumer of the products I
used to be a manufacturer of.

People, whether you like the policies of ANY administration or not,
you may have to ADAPT to what is happening in the world around you.
Just because a company makes a product for a particular industry, does
not mean that the same company should not adapt to other technology.
Johnson Controls is a great example of adaptation to the changing
business scene. BI should take note.
Trent 611 - Jun 28, 2010 11:46 AM»

"there is absoutely nothing wrong with coal power plants if you clean
the air before it leaves the plant."
If it were true, no one would be trying to stop countries from using
coal. There would be another industry building scrubbers, which are
inefficient. As for the "gift" to republican candidates, I'm sure the
people who loose their job won't be voting Democrat. But a majority of
voters believe global warming is one of the most important issues
facing the world today. The attitude of "let the other guy worry about
it" is slowly changing. If anyone actually read the article, it is the
Sierra Club law suit that has a hand in the decision. How equipment
being used to mine coal, not the burning of coal, got on the list is
anyone's guess. It's not going to stop India from burning coal.
Trent 611 - Jun 28, 2010 11:51 AM»

"We are now seeing the results of the reckless actions of voters
electing a radical left wing administration led by a president with no
experience."
I'll take Obama's inexperience over Bush any day. Bush's "experiences"
will be hard to correct for decades.
DONTTHREEPUTT - Jun 28, 2010 12:22 PM»

Un Fn Believable!!! We're letting liberal ideology kill the economy of
this country. If Bucyrus doesn't get the order, someone else will.
Obama's action will not stop the plant from being built or reduce
pollution. Duh! But, it's principle right? This is like the snot nosed
brat that takes his ball and goes home. I'm not sure we can survive
the remainder of this clown's presidency. Even all of the Wisconsin
lefties disagree. They think and act one way but flip flop when people
actually do lose jobs. Global warming, oh I'm sorry climate change, is
the biggest fraud of this century. We'll NEVER eliminate dependancy on
fossil fuels. it's the most widely available and most efficient energy
source available. Ask Gore how many cars, homes and planes he has.
What a joke.
NorthwoodsDweller - Jun 28, 2010 1:38 PM»

This is another case of the government picking the winners and losers.
Your obama has a coal fetish, so BE loses, Milwaukee loses, WI loses,
the workers lose. China wins another 600 mil of our prosperity, the
sierra lawyer's club feels good about themselves, and so does your
manchild Keynesian terrorist attack on America that you call obama
hopenchange.

There is also this rote dem libprog argument that needs to get
snuffed. Because people are for less government doesn't mean that they
are for no government. Even conservatives want roads, the oil cleaned
up, and socialist security. We would fund as we go on SS (invest like
real people do and let the money grow), and use the rule of law and
free market to provide a limited government to do the other things.

What we are not for is your obama's extraconstitutional czars,
executive orders providing blanket amnesty for Mexicans, and meddling
in the free markets. The democrats want to simply not do a budget this
year so that they don't need to account for their graft and drunken
sailor spending on pet projects and payoffs. What the he-- is that?
Didn't we used to have laws?

IN this case he is using the latest green global warming fraud to grab
another 600 mil of our prosperity and hand it right to another country
that cares less about the very things he is sweating. It is moronic at
best.

If you still believe in AGW, go read wattsupwiththat dotcom for a
couple of weeks. Actual scientists, solar physicists, and climate
professionals duke it out daily.

There is no AGW. We should be much more worried about the next Bond
event with the PDO flip and solar minimum. If you don't know what a
Bond event is, or why it should terrify you far more than
Anthropogenic Global Warming, you probably aren't qualified to have an
opinion on AGW.
MilwDave - Jun 28, 2010 2:29 PM»

"I'll take Obama's inexperience over Bush any day. Bush's
"experiences" will be hard to correct for decades."

None of us will live long enough to see the damage to our economy
caused by the Obama administration corrected.
Trent 611 - Jun 28, 2010 2:44 PM»

"Global warming, oh I'm sorry climate change, is the biggest fraud of
this century."
There has been Billions spent in the past 30 years on studying the
effects of man in relation to global warming. It is ironic that
scientist, intellectuals, the academics and World Powers actually
agree on something, and they do on this issue. For you and a few other
comedians to deny a change has been taking place for the past forty
years is fine because it doesn't change a thing.
It's easier to say no one proved cigarettes cause cancer then it is to
quit smoking.
Maybe you have your own "study" done or maybe you like to watch the
Colbert Report. Keep in mind, the US never did land on the moon and
John Kennedy is still alive. I ran into Lennon a few months ago.
bald n broke - Jun 28, 2010 2:48 PM»

Amen Northern woods... Adapt to what? This is a power plant for a
developing nation using the cheapest form of energy it can for a
country without much prosperity. It will be built and mined and
managed for years to come. There is a market in Asia for
mining...Bucyrus is adapting, so are the Russians, Chinese, South
Africans. or would you prefer they pick up and move like P & H to
China? Then all you lefties would complain about corporate greed over
loyalty to American workers. An American firm won a contract over
other countries to build, supply and maintain heavy equipment for
another country's needs...instead of some pride in that, we have a
government pissing in our oatmeal. That sends a clear message to
everyone else...If I owned a heavy equipment firm in Russia, I would
be sending thank you notes to all Democrats...
YAFF1 - Jun 28, 2010 7:05 PM»

Northwoods Dweller,

You said, "What we are not for is...meddling in the free markets."

Would that include subsidies (via loan guarantees) to Bucyrus to build
a coal plant in India.

There's the free market at work!
An Engineer - Jun 28, 2010 9:46 PM»

Snazzy1, let me get this straight - you asked for my source which
defeats
your gross misstatements about mercury emissions. I then fully
disclosed
this source and posted a link to the article.

Subsequently, you stated on this forum that you refuse to read the
article
itself or to be sent on a "wild goose chase".

Was the article that I provided (namely the computations and
references to
more calculations) too difficult for you to read? Yet, you still
consider
yourself qualified to publicly comment about coal emissions?

I'm sorry, but to intelligently converse in this area, you will
require a
technical curiosity that exceeds what I saw in your child-like "goose
chase"
remark. I could have obtained a higher quality response from a D-
average
junior high school student, either pro or con.

I guess I will not be seeing "snazzy1" in any serious articles
involving green
energy alternatives, if this low level response of yours represents
the depth
of your reasoning skills.

http://www.jsonline.com/business/97225544.html?page=1#comments

http://www.jsonline.com/business/97225544.html

...and I am Sid Harth

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