Bill Henson, David Hamilton. Are Google breaking any laws?
Addinall
between what is and what is not art. Just a little google around the
art world reveals many organisastions and large galleries hosting much
of the same stuff. Politically, this has been an interesting few days
when we see the leader of the country and the leader of the opposition
outdoing each other at condemming the work of Bill Henson. Having no
interest in child pornography, but being aware of various 'big name'
photographers, I wonder if our national galleries are going to be
subjected to scutiny when they want to display a work. I am aware of a
few photographers who have worked in this genre over the years.
Hmmmmm. Over the years David Hamilton has created works that are
deliberatly erotic in nature, using under age models. So has Sally
Mann,andJock Sturgess.
Google.com.au carries all of this 'porn'. 73, 89 - 97 Jones Street
Ultimo NSW 2007 AUSTRALIA
I believe Telstra carries it over the net for MONEY! So do OPTUS....
http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&q=David+Hamilton&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2
http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&pwst=1&resnum=0&q=Bill%20Henson&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
And the ABC.....
And Amazon....
The Age...
http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/05/24/svHENSON_narrowweb__300x443,0.jpg
And Wiki....
Two dirty old men, or artists? Can't be a Labor - Liberal thing as
both sides of
politics for years have supported these two people publishing. And it
doesn't
seem to be exclusively a 'man' thing. The photographer Sally Mann
seems to
work the same genre..
http://www.bongorama.com/stockholm/uploaded_images/prof_11_sally_mann_pose-769707.jpg
http://www.bunnydesign.com/images/sally_mann.jpg
And from Jock....
http://www.tokinowasuremono.com/tenrankag/izen/tk0710/no-1-l/015.jpg
http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/53/533/533710/bilder_960_1209203511.jpg
http://www.natury.de/nacky/radiant2-500.jpg
http://dimag.no/uploaded_images/JOck_Sturges-741375.jpg
http://www.publico.es/resources/archivos/2008/4/8/120766856700116_STURGESgd.jpg
All of these images are catelogued by www.google.com.au,
and all available for sale through Amazon, Dymocks etc.
Are they art or pornography. I'd be interested in hearing
mostly from the ld regulars of aus.pol, the ones who know how
to present and argument.
If they are indeed pornography, then it seems we have implicated
Wiki, Google, Telstra, OPTUS, several galleries, publishers, ISPs,
TNT, FedEx, Australia Post and several thousand others that are
making a jolly profit from distributing child pornography.
If it is Art, then where is the distinction made?
Are Bill Henson, David Hamilton, Sally Mann and Jock Sturges
pornographers or artists?
This distinction raises some very interesting questions for those
in the art industry, but also for those of us in the comunications
and Web service industries. It certainly raises some questions
for Publishers, Libraries and Galleries.
Rudd has expressed his opinion that he doesn't like it much, but
the legality lies with the Public service. "Absolutely revolting"
I think was the quote.
The Liberal Party's Brendan Nelson, who as leader of the
opposition in parliament is the alternative prime minister,
had also decried the exhibition. He said 52-year-old
Henson's work 'violates all the fundamental values for which we
stand.'
I notice from the Australian poll (polls are notoriously bad
statistics I know) shows that 60% of respondants think that
the pictures are pretty much OK and should be displayed.
What thought from the Shark Pond?
Mark Addinall.
Don H
news:01286bbc-07a3-49f9...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
# We humans are Apes, and nudity reminds us of the fact, whereas we aspire
to be Gods. So, "The stork brings babies", or, Go read about "the birds and
the bees".
"Original Sin" derives from eating from the Tree of Knowledge of Good
and Evil; Eve being tempted by the (trouser) snake, while Adam was tempted
by the apple (breasts). Reproduction is our most powerful instinct, after
that of Self-Preservation. Whence, the taboos.
Most kids are rather mentally tough, and don't have the tender
sensibilities, hang-ups - and hypocrisy - of adults.
They probably couldn't care less about being photographed naked - but
would certainly object to being sexually raped or otherwise abused, by
adults.
Thus plain photos of naked kids is in a different category to photos of
kids being abused by paedophiles.
The group who had Henson's works confiscated vow to continue the fight
to "protect our children". Come again? Whose children? Your own, or
other people's? Certainly, if you don't want your own kids photographed
nude, then no one can object - but other parent's kids?
The UN Declaration of Human Rights states that parents have a prior
right to decide on the education of their children - and if this involves
innocent nude photos, then is it a totalitarian imposition by others to
refuse it? Especially if the kids themselves find it alright?
We shall probably always have Blue-stocking Busybodies with us (they
probably haven't anything better to do), but whether it is nude photos, or
Right-to-Life, or No-Right-to- Die, or Anti-Abortion - no one objects if
they confine their strictures to their own (religious) group. But a blanket
ban on the community at large is another matter.
Life is supposed to be about "choice", we are told by the politicians.
The censorious limit choice to one option - their own; and who is to say
theirs is right, but them.
Yes, Australia is the Laughing Stock of the world.
fasgnadh
Thanks for sharing your soft porn collection with all
the wankers in Usenet, Mark..
..my shares in paper tissues just went
through the roof. Thanks to Doug doggie-style
and Sirvile Handjob I can retire! ;-)
The upside is ..Chris Textor won't be posting for weeks!
But, on a serious note, there is one famous child nude
I believe you have left out.
And it is truly pornographic and obscene, so I warn you
all before looking, be prepared to be shocked and disturbed,
even if you weren't at the time;
http://home.millsaps.edu/mcelvrs/Vietnam_girl_napalm.jpg
It's not the girls nakedness that is obscene, it is not
the vulnerability which her nakedness expresses, and it
is not the fact that some white male recorded it on film..
it is the context.
The boy next her, even though fully clothed, conveys the
same horror...
The War on children is obscene.
> Are they art or pornography.
It's a case by case issue, ultimately.
There was a news report of a woman artist having an exhibition
of her work "in support of Bill Henson"!?
I don't know her work, it could be good and her intentions
admirable, or she could be riding on a bandwagon, at the moment
these decisions are maid by the censors, appointed by those we elect.
Not a perfect system but it beats totalitarian oppression on
one hand or pure capitalist de-regulation on the other.
Moderation in all things. brother..
especially regarding moderation. ;-)
> I'd be interested in hearing
> mostly from the ld regulars of aus.pol, the ones who know how
> to present and argument.
I've already had my say on this one, Mark, so I am simply
pleased about the outcome.. 'convictions would not be
possible under the law' - DPP declining to prosecute.
Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:33:27 +1000
From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
Subject: "Turnbull, Brown join forces in Henson's defence"
Message-ID: <483f238e$0$1023$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
..In which I praise fellow liberals Malcolm Turnbull and
Bob Brown for their cool rationality, and criticise
Elmer Rudd for his gutless and idiotic populism...
(quickly imitated by Brendan Bowdleriser)
Message-ID: <483e88ab$0$13948$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
.."what a piece of work is man", difference between
art and pornography and L'Origine du monde
[I Read the first interesting article by Germaine Greer
for some time on this topic, recently. She copied my
argument by listing famous pubescent art images hanging in
galleries and churches for centuries, but she cited better
examples, because her knowledge of Western Art exceeds
even my own ;-]
"Through a lens darkly' - Germaine Greer 2/6/2008
"Once again it is clear there is no hard and fast
distinction between art and pornography."
http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/through-a-lens-darkly-20080601-2kgo.html
# Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:13:16 +1000
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# Subject: Hetty Petty demands Liberals evict
# 'Child Porn Gallery' from their Party HQ
# Message-ID: <484205b4$0$17506$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# "Gallery has premises in Liberal Party's block"
# - Sunday Herald Sun 1/6/2008
#
# "Witch Witch Burn the Witch!"
#
# "Anti-child abuse campaigner Hetty Johnson called on
# the Liberal Party to evict the gallery."
#
# Let the Liberals Go FREE!
Defending my opponents freedom is the only way to
protect my own!
And, to the great credit of our legal system, the citizen
who made a complaint had it thoroughly investigated, the
police diligently did their duty and investigated it
thoroughly (much to our international embarrassment, oh well),
the case was handled sensibly, passed to the censors,
and the law was upheld.. "nudity is not pornography".
Taken in conjunction with the arrests of 92 Australian
males caught downloading kiddie porn by Operation Centurion
I'd say we have the balance about right!
If Hetty Petty had not filed a police complaint, the art
world would have continued it's pursuit of "Truth is Beauty,
and Beauty, Truth" pretty much undisturbed, and largely
ignored by the masses, as it has done for centuries.
The politicians look decidedly shabby, crude populists
not much better than the shock jocks of talkback radio..
but we understand the cultural and political imperatives
that cause them to act that way... gutless philistines.
An I have to recant my earlier suggestion that there should
be a better way to resolve such issues than dragging away
photos from a gallery and police interviewing artists...
..on reflection I'm not sure there is a 'better way'..
more discrete might equal 'less transparent'.
I was wrong and would not like my error to be taken as
a criticism of the police or legal system.. in this case.
(Damn.. that's twice I have been wrong now!
But once a decade is not a bad run!
Just wait till I start campaigning for nukes as the
solution to post-peak oil energy problems in a post
Howard environment! My enemies will have a field day ;-)
We have a great deal to be thankful in a society which
can handle such complex and finely nuanced issues with
calm, rational, balance.. while all around the
shrill shills are screaming hysterically.
> If they are indeed pornography, then it seems we have implicated
> Wiki, Google, Telstra, OPTUS, several galleries, publishers, ISPs,
> TNT, FedEx, Australia Post and several thousand others that are
> making a jolly profit from distributing child pornography.
Well that's a lot of folk to be prosecuted!
>
> If it is Art, then where is the distinction made?
>
> Are Bill Henson, David Hamilton, Sally Mann and Jock Sturges
> pornographers or artists?
>
> This distinction raises some very interesting questions for those
> in the art industry, but also for those of us in the comunications
> and Web service industries. It certainly raises some questions
> for Publishers, Libraries and Galleries.
>
> Rudd has expressed his opinion that he doesn't like it much, but
> the legality lies with the Public service. "Absolutely revolting"
> I think was the quote.
>
> The Liberal Party's Brendan Nelson, who as leader of the
> opposition in parliament is the alternative prime minister,
> had also decried the exhibition. He said 52-year-old
> Henson's work 'violates all the fundamental values for which we
> stand.'
>
>
> I notice from the Australian poll (polls are notoriously bad
> statistics I know) shows that 60% of respondants think that
> the pictures are pretty much OK and should be displayed.
>
>
>
> What thought from the Shark Pond?
I voted with my feet, years ago, Mark:
# Message-ID: <4281B8E3...@yahoo.com.au>
# Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:48:51 +1000
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com.au>
#
# Sorry I was out when you called on Saturday arvo, Mark,
# as I mentioned I went with a friend to catch the Bill
# Henson exhibition at the NGV. A 30 year retrospective
# of his photographic works.. catch it when you are up
# from Geelong next.
> Mark Addinall.
---------
"Iraq War and the price of petrol" - ABC 23/5/2008
"Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said that not invading
Iraq would have helped keep petrol prices down
-- 'It's a factor in the global supply of oil.'"
Of course it is, Iraq has the second largest reserves of oil
in the world. Even if demand were not rising, which it is,
ANY disruption to supply will cause prices to go up.
As we have all seen at the petrol pump.
"There is no question that disruption in any important
country in the oil universe is going to have some
effect on prices, there is absolutely no doubt about that."
- Vijay Vaitheeswaran, Energy correspondent for
the Economist Magazine and author of
"Zoom: The Global Race to Fuel the Car of the Future"
"Iraq oil output hits a new high
- BBC 26/6/2006,
"Production has risen to 2.5 million barrels per day (bpd)
from a steady 2 million bpd during the US-led invasion,
Iraq's new oil minister said.
"Before the war, output was around 3 million bpd,
peaking at a record of 3.5 million bpd"
So, for four years following Howard and Bush's invasion
based on falsehoods about WMDs, Iraqi oil production was
reduced to FIFTY SEVEN PERCENT of it's pre-invasion peak! 8^o
And now it has only inched upward to 71% of it's pre-invasion peak
"Iraq is a mid-level producer, it's not Saudi Arabia,
for example, which is a king pin of oil, or Russia, those
countries produce 9-10 million barrels of oil a day,
the Iraqi output is maybe 20-30% of that, it's more on par
with a country like Venezuela, but undoubtedly a disruption
of the kind which comes from an invasion would of course,
send prices higher"
You can thank Howard and the Lieberals for those higher petrol
prices every time you fill up, and then don't forget the GST
they put ON TOP of the excise, ON TOP of the Iraq War Petrol
Price Surcharge!!!!!
The Great GST Tax SWINDLE
http://www.geocities.com/wmds_r_us/tory_tax_swindle.htm
All courtesy of the most DISASTROUS economic mis-managers
in post war Australian government.. the Lieberal party.
ABC: "So can our Prime Minister get away with saying that
if we didn't go into Iraq, petrol prices would be cheaper?"
"I think that without this kind of Iraq invasion, this
outcome would not have happened."
"In this case, it's not just Iraq, if there were to be hostile
actions by the US against Iran, something President Cheney has
hinted at, you can bet the prices would go even higher.
It's a question of the global supply balance, that's the reason
why an action like this became so problematic"
---------
The Official [Est. June 2000] aus.culture.true-blue FAQ ;
http://geocities.com/fairdinkum_trueblue/faq.html
The true-blue Homestead;
http://geocities.com/fairdinkum_trueblue/
The true-blue Hall Of Fame;
http://www.geocities.com/trueblue_hall_of_fame/index.html
The Tuckerbox;
http://www.geocities.com/true_blue_tucker_box/index.html
-----------
TomTom
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com> typed:
>
>
> Moderation in all things. brother..
>
> especially regarding moderation. ;-)
Who is the moderator? Public opinion? Hetty Johnston?
fasgnadh
Might as well give the old girl a go, (because
frankly mark there are just not enough of us
in aus.pol who can meet your criteria asking for
the views of 'the ones who know how to present
an argument.'
Here summary in the first two paragraphs is
spot on.
Germaine has said many things I disagree with,
but she is still a formidable intellect and
we all know how Australia has historically
treated females with opinions:
"Through a lens darkly
* Germaine Greer
Once again it is clear there is no hard and fast
distinction between art and pornography.
WHEN the forces of public order march into art galleries and walk off
with exhibits deemed to be offensive, two things are certain: one, that
images which the vast majority would never have seen or wanted to see
will be made famous and will be looked up on the internet by slavering
hordes, and, two, a great deal of nonsense will be talked by a great
many people. When the police removed half the images from Bill Henson's
show at the Roslyn Oxley9 Gallery, the usual babel broke out. Some
averred that the images were art and therefore not pornography, and that
their confiscation was a kind of sacrilege. Others insisted that their
suppression was censorship and not to be countenanced
in a society that respects intellectual freedom. Still others called the
work exploitative and concerned themselves with whether or not the
juvenile subjects were capable of consent. John McDonald declared there
was nothing sexual about Henson's photographs; you might as well say
there is nothing sexual about teenagers. In Florida last year teenagers
who made videos of their own sexual activity were charged "with
producing, directing or promoting a photograph featuring the sexual
conduct of a child". Confused? You bet.
There is no hard and fast distinction between art and pornography. Very
little pornography is art, but a good deal of art is pornographic. Some
of Titian's most lyrical paintings are portraits of the great Venetian
courtesans, which functioned as advertisements for their services and
are therefore pornography in its strictest sense. Something similar
holds true for Caravaggio, whose low-life boys would sell you anything
including themselves and their sisters."
Germs at her most wicked best! B^D
And she is here dealing only with WESTERN art!
We must still account for Japanese pillow books, erotic
hindu statues depicting coitus, Indian masterpieces
illustrating Tantric Sex (My choice for "which book
would be most useful if marooned on a desert island,
with a girl Friday.." or for Chris Textor,
marooned on a desert island on his own ;-)
"Rodin's flagrantly obscene drawings are the most moving artworks he
ever made. Dozens of Picasso engravings exalt the sex act in the most
explicit terms. Practically everything Norman Lindsay drew, apart from
his illustrations to The Magic Pudding and his war posters, was an
incitement to lecherous revelry.
Lindsay's work is truly lacivious!
Even the pudding is not to be trusted alone near children! ;-)
Now if only Rudd had described Lindsay's work as 'revolting',
he would have had no argument! B^D
"Henson's pictures have nothing to do with prostitutes or sex acts; if
they are offensive it is solely because the naked people who posed for
them were under-age at the time. Their nudity is taken by the police to
imply "a sexual context". It doesn't, of course, and any action brought
against Henson or the gallery will fail, after vast amounts of time,
energy and money have been deployed."
And those of us who said 'nakedness alone is not against the law'
were correct.
"Anyone who believes that the great artists of the past waited for their
models to reach puberty before daring to portray them naked is a blind
fool. Renaissance paintings are festooned with the naked bodies of
babies displayed in the most fetching of poses; small naked boys sit
splay-legged on the steps of temples and astride beams and boughs. The
public that saw them included pederasts and pedophiles, but nobody
deemed that a reason for not showing them. The Christ Child sat astride
his mother's knee displaying his perfect genitals. Though dirty old
priests might have taken guilty pleasure from contemplating them, the
rest of us are still allowed to see them.
More reticence is observed with female figures, mainly because female
models were hard to come by, but the first genuinely female nudes were
often pubescent or prepubescent. The closet Venuses of Cranach and
Baldung, for example, have the undeveloped hips, small, hard, high
breasts and pallid nipples of 13-year-olds. Botticelli's Venus is hardly
older. Greuze's girls, with their white bosoms glimpsed through
disordered clothing and tear-filled eyes, are not only very young but
violated as well. Bouguereau's Cupidon (1875) and Child at Bath (1886)
are far more disturbing images of vulnerable immaturity than anything
created by Henson, but paint may do what photography may not. If Henson
had painted his young subjects, the police would have no situation to
investigate.
But Germaine pushes the argument further, beyond Henson's
delicate beauty, fragility and sense of anxiety.. into
the Darkness within our culture.. (NINETY TWO WHITE AUSSIE
MALES, including teachers, and police, arrested for
downloading child pornography .. it's a cultural phenomenon!)
This is the uncomfortable issue that perhaps only a woman as
brave, and reckless, as Germaine has often been, will dare
to raise;
"Any man who calls Henson's pictures "revolting" protests too much. Our
culture sexualises girls from infancy; they learn to flirt and be coy;
the clothing designed for them is flashy, trashy and tarty. Every little
girl is Daddy's little girl and is not allowed to grow up. Kate Moss,
the world's most successful model, is a 34-year-old with the body of a
14-year-old. Signs of sexual maturity, spreading hips, darkened nipples,
body hair, are considered unsightly."
Mothers may look at Henson's pictures and howl with fear; the man who
rejects them with exaggerated horror is denying his own complicity. If
our culture were not pedophilic, if our children were not already
grossly sexualised, we would not be so dismayed by Henson's unerotic
images, or so frantic to persecute and punish him for making them.
In the 1990s American photographer Jock Sturges was pursued by the FBI
on child pornography charges. They failed to make them stick. Sturges'
photographs are now world famous and worth millions. Sturges explains
that he has "always been drawn to and fascinated by physical, social and
sexual change", and Henson echoes him. Even mothers who photograph their
children's bodies are scapegoated. Sally Mann was accused of incestuous
feelings for her prepubescent children simply because she photographed
them without their clothes.
The Saatchi Gallery was threatened with prosecution for showing Tierney
Gieron's photographs of her children, which were described as a
"revolting exhibition of perversion under the guise of art". Meanwhile,
the models on our catwalks are or pretend to be gangling adolescents.
Every year fashion magazines produce a new crop of schoolgirl models,
and don't scruple to show their budding breasts. It seems that only when
the imagery calls itself art that child protection officers can summon
the courage to protest."
And that, i fear, is the truth about our cultural hypocrisy.
The truthfulness of art is being attacked, but the deceitfulness
of the commercial culture continues it's exploitation unabated.
Here, from a woman largely despised in her homeland, comes a
compelling answer to the question Mark posed:
"The images of children stored on pedophiles' computers are not art. If
you can't tell the difference, take a look at the websites featuring
nude teens. Then look again at Henson's withdrawn and introspective
subjects. Henson's melodramatic chiaroscuro is an earnest attempt to get
the beholder to take adolescence seriously. It doesn't quite come off,
but that's the risk art takes. Now that he has been dubbed a
pornographer, his photographs will sell for millions. Art takes longer."
- Germaine Greer is the author of The Beautiful Boy,
an art history about the beauty of teenage boys.
I must admit, as the aging Germaine started to write about the
beauty of teenage boys in the last few years I lost interest,
and it is not safe to talk about the beauty of youth of either
gender for precisely the reasons she has elucidated,
but she is always thought provoking, and we need to continue to
distinguish between the interest we all have in that which is
beautiful, and any prurient desire to possess it.
It is not shameful to gaze upon the human form in wonder,
it is shameful to objectify that human, to make it
and object of lust, for commercial gain.
We all know the difference, instinctively.
Swampfox
"Addinall" <addi...@addinall.org> wrote in message
news:01286bbc-07a3-49f9...@h1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
Most rational people wouldn't be too concerned about
Henson's images if the brief snapshot I've seen of
them is any guide.
I would imagine that they are way to sterile and stark
for the average paedophile, but naked young girls are
an ironclad guarantee of increased tabloid sales and
viewing audiences on popular TV current affairs shows
so it's no surprise the media ran so hard with it..
Rudd's response surprised me, as he had seemed to be a
considered and rational man.
I can only assume it's his deep religious conviction
driving him here, which remains a major concern.
Nelson's response was predictably populist and
straight from the "mortgage, Sunday roast and picket
fence" handbook that many conservative politicians
seem to rely on.
His comment that "Henson's work 'violates all the
fundamental values for which we stand.' ", is ironic,
as the Liberal Party's fundamental values seem to have
gotten more elastic by the day in recent times.
In the end a good result in law, but not so good an
episode if we aspire to be a liberal democracy, as the
conservative and supposedly progressive leaders of
Australian politics seem to be having a mind meld.
fasgnadh
TomTom wrote:
> In news:4849e4b5$0$17510$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au,
> fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com> typed:
>>
>>
>> Moderation in all things. brother..
>>
>> especially regarding moderation. ;-)
>
> Who is the moderator?
aus.politics is not moderated, PomPom.
Perhaps you should swim back down to the shallow end of the pond.
> Public opinion?
via the legislature and the judiciary.
> Hetty Johnston?
Clearly not, in this case.
Glad to be of help, you clearly need it and utterly fail
Mark's requirement of asking to hear from those "who know how
to present an argument"
You should stick to posting your small-target non sequiturs,
it almost makes you safe from your own limitations.
TomTom
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com> typed:
>
>
> You should stick to posting your small-target non sequiturs
If that were so, it was a direct hit.
fasgnadh
> fasgnadh wrote:
>> TomTom wrote:
>>> In news:4849e4b5$0$17510$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au,
>>> fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com> typed:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Moderation in all things. brother..
>>>>
>>>> especially regarding moderation. ;-)
>>>
>>> Who is the moderator?
>>
>> aus.politics is not moderated, PomPom.
>>
>> Perhaps you should swim back down to the shallow end of the pond.
>>
>>> Public opinion?
>>
>> via the legislature and the judiciary.
>>
>>> Hetty Johnston?
>>
>> Clearly not, in this case.
>>
>> Glad to be of help, you clearly need it and utterly fail
>> Mark's requirement of asking to hear from those "who know how
>> to present an argument"
>>
>
> If that were so, it was a direct hit.
Yes, you hit new personal lows,
Glad to see you followed my advise, lightweight! B^D
Addinall
> Addinall wrote:
> > Child porn is a BAAAADDD thing. The distinction is being tested
> > between what is and what is not art. Just a little google around the
> > art world reveals many organisastions and large galleries hosting much
> > of the same stuff. Politically, this has been an interesting few days
> > when we see the leader of the country and the leader of the opposition
> > outdoing each other at condemming the work of Bill Henson. Having no
> > interest in child pornography, but being aware of various 'big name'
> > photographers, I wonder if our national galleries are going to be
> > subjected to scutiny when they want to display a work. I am aware of a
> > few photographers who have worked in this genre over the years.
>
> > Hmmmmm. Over the years David Hamilton has created works that are
> > deliberatly erotic in nature, using under age models. So has Sally
> > Mann,andJock Sturgess.
>
> > Google.com.au carries all of this 'porn'. 73, 89 - 97 Jones Street
> > Ultimo NSW 2007 AUSTRALIA
>
> > I believe Telstra carries it over the net for MONEY! So do OPTUS....
>
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&pwst=1&resnum=0&q=Bill%20Hen...
>
> > And the ABC.....
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ar...
>
> > And Amazon....
>
> >http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/images/2732434981/ref=dp_image_text_0...
>
> >http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/images/286665451X/ref=dp_image_text_0...
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://ecx.images-amazon.co...
>
> > The Age...
>
> >http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/05/24/svHENSON_narrow...
>
> > And Wiki....
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org...
>
> > Two dirty old men, or artists? Can't be a Labor - Liberal thing as
> > both sides of
> > politics for years have supported these two people publishing. And it
> > doesn't
> > seem to be exclusively a 'man' thing. The photographer Sally Mann
> > seems to
> > work the same genre..
>
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stefan-rohner.ne...
>
> >http://www.bongorama.com/stockholm/uploaded_images/prof_11_sally_mann...
>
> >http://www.bunnydesign.com/images/sally_mann.jpg
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://bp3.blogger.com/_cx2...
>
> > And from Jock....
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.photoarts.com/Pr...
>
> >http://www.tokinowasuremono.com/tenrankag/izen/tk0710/no-1-l/015.jpg
>
> >http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/53/533/533710/bilder_960_12092...
>
> >http://www.natury.de/nacky/radiant2-500.jpg
>
> >http://dimag.no/uploaded_images/JOck_Sturges-741375.jpg
>
> >http://www.publico.es/resources/archivos/2008/4/8/120766856700116_STU...
>
> > All of these images are catelogued bywww.google.com.au,
> > and all available for sale through Amazon, Dymocks etc.
>
> Thanks for sharing your soft porn collection with all
> the wankers in Usenet, Mark..
> ..my shares in paper tissues just went
> through the roof. Thanks to Doug doggie-style
> and Sirvile Handjob I can retire! ;-)
>
> The upside is ..Chris Textor won't be posting for weeks!
>
> But, on a serious note, there is one famous child nude
> I believe you have left out.
>
> And it is truly pornographic and obscene, so I warn you
> all before looking, be prepared to be shocked and disturbed,
> even if you weren't at the time;
>
> http://home.millsaps.edu/mcelvrs/Vietnam_girl_napalm.jpg
I've used that one before. Making a point to Brasher.
>
> It's not the girls nakedness that is obscene, it is not
> the vulnerability which her nakedness expresses, and it
> is not the fact that some white male recorded it on film..
>
> it is the context.
>
> The boy next her, even though fully clothed, conveys the
> same horror...
>
> The War on children is obscene.
Agreed.
>
> > Are they art or pornography.
>
> It's a case by case issue, ultimately.
That seems to be an issue. And one of the ones I am
contemplating. If an 'artist' can produce such work for decades,
and the socio-political current meme shifts ever so slightly,
published works are (or can be) deemed pornographic.
That is a hard ask for any artist. And as I have pointed out,
it involves (in the distribution) some of the world's largest
organisations.
So, where do we go from here?
>
> There was a news report of a woman artist having an exhibition
> of her work "in support of Bill Henson"!?
>
> I don't know her work, it could be good and her intentions
> admirable, or she could be riding on a bandwagon, at the moment
> these decisions are maid by the censors, appointed by those we elect.
>
> Not a perfect system but it beats totalitarian oppression on
> one hand or pure capitalist de-regulation on the other.
>
> Moderation in all things. brother..
>
> especially regarding moderation. ;-)
Agreed. The system isn't perfect, but it does still
seem to be working. It would help matters if the
first copper on telly wasn't actually grinning when declaring
"charges will be laid".
>
> > I'd be interested in hearing
>
> > mostly from the ld regulars of aus.pol, the ones who know how
> > to present and argument.
>
> I've already had my say on this one, Mark, so I am simply
> pleased about the outcome.. 'convictions would not be
> possible under the law' - DPP declining to prosecute.
>
> Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:33:27 +1000
> From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: "Turnbull, Brown join forces in Henson's defence"
> Message-ID: <483f238e$0$1023$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>
>
> ..In which I praise fellow liberals Malcolm Turnbull and
> Bob Brown for their cool rationality, and criticise
> Elmer Rudd for his gutless and idiotic populism...
> (quickly imitated by Brendan Bowdleriser)
Yerse.
>
> Message-ID: <483e88ab$0$13948$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>
> .."what a piece of work is man", difference between
> art and pornography and L'Origine du monde
>
> [I Read the first interesting article by Germaine Greer
> for some time on this topic, recently. She copied my
> argument by listing famous pubescent art images hanging in
> galleries and churches for centuries, but she cited better
> examples, because her knowledge of Western Art exceeds
> even my own ;-]
>
> "Through a lens darkly' - Germaine Greer 2/6/2008
> "Once again it is clear there is no hard and fast
> distinction between art and pornography."
>
> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/through-a-lens-darkly-20080601-2kgo....
>
> # Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:13:16 +1000
> # From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
> # Subject: Hetty Petty demands Liberals evict
> # 'Child Porn Gallery' from their Party HQ
> # Message-ID: <484205b4$0$17506$afc38...@news.optusnet.com.au>
> #
> # "Gallery has premises in Liberal Party's block"
> # - Sunday Herald Sun 1/6/2008
> #
> # "Witch Witch Burn the Witch!"
> #
> # "Anti-child abuse campaigner Hetty Johnson called on
> # the Liberal Party to evict the gallery."
> #
> # Let the Liberals Go FREE!
>
> Defending my opponents freedom is the only way to
> protect my own!
>
> And, to the great credit of our legal system, the citizen
> who made a complaint had it thoroughly investigated, the
> police diligently did their duty and investigated it
> thoroughly (much to our international embarrassment, oh well),
> the case was handled sensibly, passed to the censors,
> and the law was upheld.. "nudity is not pornography".
>
> Taken in conjunction with the arrests of 92 Australian
> males caught downloading kiddie porn by Operation Centurion
> I'd say we have the balance about right!
I think so. It's a slippery slope when we have our policy
makers driven by some 'unseen' moral force...
Indeed it is!
>
>
>
> > If it is Art, then where is the distinction made?
>
> > Are Bill Henson, David Hamilton, Sally Mann and Jock Sturges
> > pornographers or artists?
>
> > This distinction raises some very interesting questions for those
> > in the art industry, but also for those of us in the comunications
> > and Web service industries. It certainly raises some questions
> > for Publishers, Libraries and Galleries.
>
> > Rudd has expressed his opinion that he doesn't like it much, but
> > the legality lies with the Public service. "Absolutely revolting"
> > I think was the quote.
>
> > The Liberal Party's Brendan Nelson, who as leader of the
> > opposition in parliament is the alternative prime minister,
> > had also decried the exhibition. He said 52-year-old
> > Henson's work 'violates all the fundamental values for which we
> > stand.'
>
> > I notice from the Australian poll (polls are notoriously bad
> > statistics I know) shows that 60% of respondants think that
> > the pictures are pretty much OK and should be displayed.
>
> > What thought from the Shark Pond?
>
> I voted with my feet, years ago, Mark:
>
> # Message-ID: <4281B8E3.6030...@yahoo.com.au>
> # Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:48:51 +1000
> # From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com.au>
> #
> # Sorry I was out when you called on Saturday arvo, Mark,
> # as I mentioned I went with a friend to catch the Bill
> # Henson exhibition at the NGV. A 30 year retrospective
> # of his photographic works.. catch it when you are up
> # from Geelong next.
Yerse. Sorry I missed you. Deakin was keeping me a little busy ;-)
Marky.
Addinall
> "Addinall" <addin...@addinall.org> wrote in message
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&pwst=1&resnum=0&q=Bill%20Hen...
>
> > And the ABC.....
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ar...
>
> > And Amazon....
>
> >http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/images/2732434981/ref=dp_image_text_0...
>
> >http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/images/286665451X/ref=dp_image_text_0...
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://ecx.images-amazon.co...
>
> > The Age...
>
> >http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/05/24/svHENSON_narrow...
>
> > And Wiki....
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org...
>
> > Liberal thing as
> > both sides of
> > politics for years have supported these two people
> > publishing. And it
> > doesn't
> > seem to be exclusively a 'man' thing. The
> > photographer Sally Mann
> > seems to
> > work the same genre..
>
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stefan-rohner.ne...
>
> >http://www.bongorama.com/stockholm/uploaded_images/prof_11_sally_mann...
>
> >http://www.bunnydesign.com/images/sally_mann.jpg
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://bp3.blogger.com/_cx2...
>
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.photoarts.com/Pr...
>
> >http://www.tokinowasuremono.com/tenrankag/izen/tk0710/no-1-l/015.jpg
>
> >http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/53/533/533710/bilder_960_12092...
>
>
> >http://dimag.no/uploaded_images/JOck_Sturges-741375.jpg
>
> >http://www.publico.es/resources/archivos/2008/4/8/120766856700116_STU...
Agreed.
> Rudd's response surprised me, as he had seemed to be a
> considered and rational man.
It didn't suprise me, but I get what you mean.
> I can only assume it's his deep religious conviction
> driving him here, which remains a major concern.
Agreed again.
> Nelson's response was predictably populist and
> straight from the "mortgage, Sunday roast and picket
> fence" handbook that many conservative politicians
> seem to rely on.
> His comment that "Henson's work 'violates all the
> fundamental values for which we stand.' ", is ironic,
Yes, the Royal "We" in play again. He could have worn
a flag for effect.
> as the Liberal Party's fundamental values seem to have
> gotten more elastic by the day in recent times.
> In the end a good result in law, but not so good an
> episode if we aspire to be a liberal democracy, as the
> conservative and supposedly progressive leaders of
> Australian politics seem to be having a mind meld.
I have no problems with any of that response.
Thanks.
Mark Addinall.
Addinall
> fasgnadh wrote:
> > Addinall wrote:
> >> Child porn is a BAAAADDD thing. The distinction is being tested
> >> between what is and what is not art. Just a little google around the
> >> art world reveals many organisastions and large galleries hosting much
> >> of the same stuff. Politically, this has been an interesting few days
> >> when we see the leader of the country and the leader of the opposition
> >> outdoing each other at condemming the work of Bill Henson. Having no
> >> interest in child pornography, but being aware of various 'big name'
> >> photographers, I wonder if our national galleries are going to be
> >> subjected to scutiny when they want to display a work. I am aware of a
> >> few photographers who have worked in this genre over the years.
>
> >> Hmmmmm. Over the years David Hamilton has created works that are
> >> deliberatly erotic in nature, using under age models. So has Sally
> >> Mann,andJock Sturgess.
>
> >> Google.com.au carries all of this 'porn'. 73, 89 - 97 Jones Street
> >> Ultimo NSW 2007 AUSTRALIA
>
> >> I believe Telstra carries it over the net for MONEY! So do OPTUS....
>
>
> >>http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&pwst=1&resnum=0&q=Bill%20Hen...
>
> >> And the ABC.....
>
> >>http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ar...
>
> >> And Amazon....
>
> >>http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/images/2732434981/ref=dp_image_text_0...
>
> >>http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/images/286665451X/ref=dp_image_text_0...
>
> >>http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://ecx.images-amazon.co...
>
> >> The Age...
>
> >>http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/05/24/svHENSON_narrow...
>
> >> And Wiki....
>
> >>http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org...
>
> >> both sides of
> >> politics for years have supported these two people publishing. And it
> >> doesn't
> >> seem to be exclusively a 'man' thing. The photographer Sally Mann
> >> seems to
> >> work the same genre..
>
>
> >>http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stefan-rohner.ne...
>
> >>http://www.bongorama.com/stockholm/uploaded_images/prof_11_sally_mann...
>
> >>http://www.bunnydesign.com/images/sally_mann.jpg
>
> >>http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://bp3.blogger.com/_cx2...
>
>
> >>http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.photoarts.com/Pr...
>
> >>http://www.tokinowasuremono.com/tenrankag/izen/tk0710/no-1-l/015.jpg
>
> >>http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/53/533/533710/bilder_960_12092...
>
>
> >>http://dimag.no/uploaded_images/JOck_Sturges-741375.jpg
>
> >>http://www.publico.es/resources/archivos/2008/4/8/120766856700116_STU...
>
> >> All of these images are catelogued bywww.google.com.au,
> >> and all available for sale through Amazon, Dymocks etc.
>
> > > I'd be interested in hearing
> >> mostly from the ld regulars of aus.pol, the ones who know how
> >> to present and argument.
>
> > I've already had my say on this one, Mark, so I am simply
> > pleased about the outcome.. 'convictions would not be
> > possible under the law' - DPP declining to prosecute.
>
> > Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:33:27 +1000
> > From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
> > Subject: "Turnbull, Brown join forces in Henson's defence"
>
> > ..In which I praise fellow liberals Malcolm Turnbull and
> > Bob Brown for their cool rationality, and criticise
> > Elmer Rudd for his gutless and idiotic populism...
> > (quickly imitated by Brendan Bowdleriser)
>
> > .."what a piece of work is man", difference between
> > art and pornography and L'Origine du monde
>
> > [I Read the first interesting article by Germaine Greer
> > for some time on this topic, recently. She copied my
> > argument by listing famous pubescent art images hanging in
> > galleries and churches for centuries, but she cited better
> > examples, because her knowledge of Western Art exceeds
> > even my own ;-]
>
> > "Through a lens darkly' - Germaine Greer 2/6/2008
> > "Once again it is clear there is no hard and fast
> > distinction between art and pornography."
>
>
> Might as well give the old girl a go, (because
> frankly mark there are just not enough of us
> in aus.pol who can meet your criteria asking for
> the views of 'the ones who know how to present
> an argument.'
Seems to be a taboo subject to discuss. How very strange.
Every man and his dog in front or behind the telly seemed
to have something to say on the issue. From the local pub
grub all the way to our exhaulted leaders.
All true.
Mark Addinall.
Swampfox
You're welcome.
In your response to Fas you mentioned that the moral standards of the
day need to shift only slightly for legitimate art to be considered
pornography.
While this is undoubtedly true it also has many other applications of
equal or greater import, and maybe these things are worth considering
rather than viewing the Henson situation in isolation.
I saw a stage show in Melbourne tonight in which a song was sung
satirising incest and a segment of the show was devoted to parodying
death and mortality.
This was undoubtedly artistic license as far as I was concerned
although I didn't find either sketch particularly funny.
The principle as I see it in both situations but also in far more
others than can be described here is that a liberal and free society
should look first and foremost at the potential for harm.
I see none in either Henson's images or an otherwise rather bland
stage show, and I see none in formal marriage between homosexuals
either, which has been flatly ruled out by virtually all our political
leaders.
It's a question of whether we want to demand our freedom with the sole
condition being that we do no harm to our fellow citizens.
TomTom
fasgnadh <fasg...@yahoo.com> typed:
> TomTom wrote:
>> fasgnadh wrote:
>>>
>>> You should stick to posting your small-target non sequiturs
>>
>> If that were so, it was a direct hit.
>
> Yes, you hit new personal lows,
You are a too-easy target, where little effort is needed.
> Glad to see you followed my advise, lightweight!
That would be "advice".
< Another illiterate yobbo. >
Addinall
Thanks.
> In your response to Fas you mentioned that the moral standards of the
> day need to shift only slightly for legitimate art to be considered
> pornography.
I did, and this shift is rather worrying. We have seen over the last
decade
serious discussion, and the implementation of retrospective law.
> While this is undoubtedly true it also has many other applications of
> equal or greater import, and maybe these things are worth considering
> rather than viewing the Henson situation in isolation.
Indeed.
> I saw a stage show in Melbourne tonight in which a song was sung
> satirising incest and a segment of the show was devoted to parodying
> death and mortality.
> This was undoubtedly artistic license as far as I was concerned
> although I didn't find either sketch particularly funny.
If I see a show I dislike. I leave. Have done in the past, and
will continue to do so in the future. It seems a rather simple
option.
Voting with feet.
> The principle as I see it in both situations but also in far more
> others than can be described here is that a liberal and free society
> should look first and foremost at the potential for harm.
> I see none in either Henson's images or an otherwise rather bland
> stage show, and I see none in formal marriage between homosexuals
> either, which has been flatly ruled out by virtually all our political
> leaders.
> It's a question of whether we want to demand our freedom with the sole
> condition being that we do no harm to our fellow citizens.
'Harm' is an issue. We have the concept of 'harm' thrust upon us
daily.
It's a good excuse to erode civil rights in the name of the 'TRUTH'.
It's an interesting social-political muse. What actually does 'harm'
us
as individuals, or as a nation? As my old mate Wicks pointed out,
what is more disturbing, a naked girl being fried alive with Napalm,
or a naked girl on a sunny beach?
Mark Addinall.
Swampfox
Harm can mean different things to different people, but it should be
relatively easy to define nonetheless.
One example I cited was gay marriage.
I fail to see how by any definition a marriage of two adults can cause
harm to anyone, unless we were to include in the defininition of harm
offending another citizen's sense of morality, but that would surely
be outweighed by the right of the individuals concerned, and is
plainly absurd.
Mmorality should be seen as personal choice so long as one's moral
judgements have no adverse impact on an unwilling party, a person of
unsound mind, a minor etc.
Will we allow, for instance, voluntary euthanasia, gay marriage,
decriminalised drugs or the absolute right to free speech?
We all claim to want freedom, but the majority only want it on their
own terms and with the proviso that they are free to restrict the
freedom of others.
Gregory Shearman
>
> I notice from the Australian poll (polls are notoriously bad
> statistics I know) shows that 60% of respondants think that
> the pictures are pretty much OK and should be displayed.
>
>
>
> What thought from the Shark Pond?
>
> Mark Addinall.
It's all a storm in an A-cup.
--
Regards,
Gregory.
Gentoo Linux - Penguin Power
Gregory Shearman
> Rudd's response surprised me, as he had seemed to be a
> considered and rational man.
It didn't surprise me and I'd never describe him as considered and
rational.
> I can only assume it's his deep religious conviction
> driving him here, which remains a major concern.
Yep, a prudish small-minded country hick would about sum it up nicely. I
hoped for better from Rudd, but he shows his true colours which give a
sheen similar to the previous prime minister.
Still, it was his opinion of Henson's work.. and as such he's entitled
to it, but I'd give it far less credence than the press gave it. When
did a small-minded country hick from Queensland become an art expert?
gregory...@gmail.com
> Addinall wrote:
> > Child porn is a BAAAADDD thing. The distinction is being tested
> > between what is and what is not art. Just a little google around the
> > art world reveals many organisastions and large galleries hosting much
> > of the same stuff. Politically, this has been an interesting few days
> > when we see the leader of the country and the leader of the opposition
> > interest in child pornography, but being aware of various 'big name'
> > photographers, I wonder if our national galleries are going to be
> > subjected to scutiny when they want to display a work. I am aware of a
> > few photographers who have worked in this genre over the years.
>
> > Hmmmmm. Over the years David Hamilton has created works that are
> > deliberatly erotic in nature, using under age models. So has Sally
> > Mann,andJock Sturgess.
>
> > Google.com.au carries all of this 'porn'. 73, 89 - 97 Jones Street
> > Ultimo NSW 2007 AUSTRALIA
>
> > I believe Telstra carries it over the net for MONEY! So do OPTUS....
>
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&pwst=1&resnum=0&q=Bill%20Hen...
>
> > And the ABC.....
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/ar...
>
> > And Amazon....
>
> >http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/images/2732434981/ref=dp_image_text_0...
>
> >http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/images/286665451X/ref=dp_image_text_0...
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://ecx.images-amazon.co...
>
> > The Age...
>
> >http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/05/24/svHENSON_narrow...
>
> > And Wiki....
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org...
>
> > both sides of
> > politics for years have supported these two people publishing. And it
> > doesn't
> > seem to be exclusively a 'man' thing. The photographer Sally Mann
> > seems to
> > work the same genre..
>
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stefan-rohner.ne...
>
> >http://www.bongorama.com/stockholm/uploaded_images/prof_11_sally_mann...
>
> >http://www.bunnydesign.com/images/sally_mann.jpg
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://bp3.blogger.com/_cx2...
>
>
> >http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.photoarts.com/Pr...
>
> >http://www.tokinowasuremono.com/tenrankag/izen/tk0710/no-1-l/015.jpg
>
> >http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/53/533/533710/bilder_960_12092...
>
>
> >http://dimag.no/uploaded_images/JOck_Sturges-741375.jpg
>
> >http://www.publico.es/resources/archivos/2008/4/8/120766856700116_STU...
>
> > All of these images are catelogued bywww.google.com.au,
> > and all available for sale through Amazon, Dymocks etc.
>
> Thanks for sharing your soft porn collection with all
> the wankers in Usenet, Mark..
> ..my shares in paper tissues just went
> through the roof. Thanks to Doug doggie-style
> and Sirvile Handjob I can retire! ;-)
>
> The upside is ..Chris Textor won't be posting for weeks!
>
> But, on a serious note, there is one famous child nude
> I believe you have left out.
>
> And it is truly pornographic and obscene, so I warn you
> all before looking, be prepared to be shocked and disturbed,
> even if you weren't at the time;
>
> http://home.millsaps.edu/mcelvrs/Vietnam_girl_napalm.jpg
>
> It's not the girls nakedness that is obscene, it is not
> the vulnerability which her nakedness expresses, and it
> is not the fact that some white male recorded it on film..
>
> it is the context.
>
> The boy next her, even though fully clothed, conveys the
> same horror...
>
> The War on children is obscene.
>
> > Are they art or pornography.
>
> It's a case by case issue, ultimately.
>
> There was a news report of a woman artist having an exhibition
>
> I don't know her work, it could be good and her intentions
> admirable, or she could be riding on a bandwagon, at the moment
> these decisions are maid by the censors, appointed by those we elect.
>
> Not a perfect system but it beats totalitarian oppression on
> one hand or pure capitalist de-regulation on the other.
>
> Moderation in all things. brother..
>
> especially regarding moderation. ;-)
>
> > I'd be interested in hearing
>
> > mostly from the ld regulars of aus.pol, the ones who know how
> > to present and argument.
>
> I've already had my say on this one, Mark, so I am simply
> pleased about the outcome.. 'convictions would not be
> possible under the law' - DPP declining to prosecute.
>
> Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:33:27 +1000
> From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
> Subject: "Turnbull, Brown join forces inHenson'sdefence"
>
> ..In which I praise fellow liberals Malcolm Turnbull and
> Bob Brown for their cool rationality, and criticise
> Elmer Rudd for his gutless and idiotic populism...
> (quickly imitated by Brendan Bowdleriser)
>
> .."what a piece of work is man", difference between
> art and pornography and L'Origine du monde
>
> [I Read the first interesting article by Germaine Greer
> for some time on this topic, recently. She copied my
> argument by listing famous pubescent art images hanging in
> galleries and churches for centuries, but she cited better
> examples, because her knowledge of Western Art exceeds
> even my own ;-]
>
> "Through a lens darkly' - Germaine Greer 2/6/2008
> "Once again it is clear there is no hard and fast
> distinction between art and pornography."
>
>
> # Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:13:16 +1000
> # From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
> # Subject: Hetty Petty demands Liberals evict
> # 'Child Porn Gallery' from their Party HQ
It was to be a secret from the masses was it? In the UK it is child
pornography as a factor of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, and the
Protection of Children Act, so Ms Johnston, did the right thing, and
every pedo-site, porn forum, child erotica web-site, child sex tourism
net infrastructure, the Henson image is everywhere, so I ask this, who
put it on the internet?
Gregory
fasgnadh
Is there an echo in here?
> It was to be a secret from the masses was it?
'Ignored' implies 'knows about but doesn't care'
Your grasp of English suggests it is not your first language.
There is nothing 'secret' about images which have been in
every Australian, and many overseas, galleries for years,
published on the Internet and by the ABC.
The masses are interested in football and quiz shows, not art.
I> n the UK it is child
> pornography as a factor of the Sexual Offences Act 2003, and the
> Protection of Children Act, so Ms Johnston, did the right thing,
Nudity is not pornography, if it was nudist beaches would
be banned and thousands of families would be arrested for
allowing their kids to skinny dip.
Ms Johnston should have informed herself of the law
before wasting police time and causing great embarrassment
for Australia round the world as "the yobbos who arrest
artists"
> and
> every pedo-site, porn forum, child erotica web-site, child sex tourism
> net infrastructure,
That thought does not look to have been completed,
Henson's work, in LAW is not obscene or pornographic,
a state board to whom the police referred the works
for classification said so.
That is our law, if you wish to change it mount a campaign and
get elected. But most Australians are satisfied with the
decision and wonder what you find offensive or prurient
in Henson's images.
> the Henson image is everywhere,
indeed, a measure of it's social acceptability.
> so I ask this, who
> put it on the internet?
Numerous bodies.. major art galleries, the ABC, other media
orgnisations.
Why? What is the problem? Now that Hetty Petty has moved on
the perverts have returned to their porn and left the Art world
to pursue Truth and Beauty.
No one is being harmed by Henson's work, Humans are being shown
a mirror to life as art helps us understand who we are.
> Gregory
Try to see the beauty in life, not the dirt.
If you find the image disgusting, or obscene, perhaps
it is in the eye of the beholder.
I find it poignant, suggesting vulnerability, but it only
arouses a sense of protectiveness, no desire to ravage.
Pornography commodifies the subject, this reveals the
humanity... perverts are not interested in such, as their
gross sensibilities respond to coarseness and degradation.
In the Sistine chapel, do the Cherubs exposed genitalia,
far more explicit and full frontal than Henson, cause
you to be aroused or offended..? or is it LIFE which
is celebrated by Art!?
Much of Hindu classical art is about sex and sensuality,
they regard it as a divine gift, but as i have indicated,
even the Catholic church, long a teacher of shame and guilt,
celebrates the human form in great art.
Do not go around knocking the penises off sculptures
by Michaelangelo.. just to make them fit small minds.
gregory...@gmail.com
>
> Ms Johnston should have informed herself of the law
> before wasting police time and causing great embarrassment
> for Australia round the world as "the yobbos who arrest
> artists"
The yobbos who don't.
I've just been told that another major ISP in the states has decided
the image ( 13 year old girl) violates federal child pornography
statutes. I already know what the British cops think about it.
The Oz classification board free passes child pornography leaving many
children in harm's way, They're not very much of a help. So, despite
the fact it is child pornography in oter places, it has been free
passed by the Oz yobbos, as we say.
Gregory
gregory...@gmail.com
Wiki, Google, Telstra, OPTUS, several galleries, publishers, ISPs,
TNT, FedEx, Australia Post and several thousand others that are
making a jolly profit from distributing child pornography. "
People have been prosecuted & convicted for having it.
Henson goes further than Hamilton and the latter is very restricted.
Didn't Hamilton have to scoot to Paris or the French Riviera?
Amazon sell Baby Dolls and Bubble Bath Girls, what can I say, maybe it
is time to do something, click on what the Hamilton customers also
buy!
Why bubble baths? Because I, like everyone else, wanted to see what
happens behind that door when a lovely girl undresses and takes a
bath. It is a time of intimacy, privacy, and vulnerability, not often
seen by others. These girls came by in cute little outfits that showed
off their personalities. They wore t-shirts with kitschy phrases
written on them, or short flowery dresses that were easy to remove.
Sometimes I had the girls get out of the tub soaking wet, run to
another room, pose for some photos, and then run back to the tub. The
girls brought over props too--jump ropes, toys, hats, tiaras, guitars,
bubbles, hand puppets, miniature pumpkins, a yorkshire terrier, an
iguana, and a duck made out of soap. There's nothing like a beautiful
young woman, wet and playful.
http://www.amazon.com/Bubble-Bath-Girls-Andrew-Einhorn/dp/3936709157/ref=pd_sim_b_title_23
The 'art' Amazon sell.
Gregory
GrassyNoel
in galleries, they would certainly be called child abuse if not porn.
Children can't give informed consent to this work any more than they
can give informed consent to sexual intercourse.
Addinall
> "If they are indeed pornography, then it seems we have implicated
> Wiki, Google, Telstra, OPTUS, several galleries, publishers, ISPs,
> TNT, FedEx, Australia Post and several thousand others that are
> making a jolly profit from distributing child pornography. "
>
> People have been prosecuted & convicted for having it.
Then you had better get cracking. You need to prosecute
about 40 of the biggest companies on the planet, all of the libraries,
and most of the art galleries. Let us know how you get on.
>
> Henson goes further than Hamilton and the latter is very restricted.
Rubbish.
> Didn't Hamilton have to scoot to Paris or the French Riviera?
And? I've been to Paris and the French Riviera.
>
> Amazon sell Baby Dolls and Bubble Bath Girls, what can I say, maybe it
> is time to do something, click on what the Hamilton customers also
> buy!
>
> Why bubble baths? Because I, like everyone else, wanted to see what
> happens behind that door when a lovely girl undresses and takes a
> bath. It is a time of intimacy, privacy, and vulnerability, not often
> seen by others. These girls came by in cute little outfits that showed
> off their personalities. They wore t-shirts with kitschy phrases
> written on them, or short flowery dresses that were easy to remove.
> Sometimes I had the girls get out of the tub soaking wet, run to
> another room, pose for some photos, and then run back to the tub. The
> girls brought over props too--jump ropes, toys, hats, tiaras, guitars,
> bubbles, hand puppets, miniature pumpkins, a yorkshire terrier, an
> iguana, and a duck made out of soap. There's nothing like a beautiful
> young woman, wet and playful.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/Bubble-Bath-Girls-Andrew-Einhorn/dp/3936709157/...
>
> The 'art' Amazon sell.
So, prosecute Amazon. Shrug.
Mark Addinall.
>
> Gregory
B J Foster
> On Jun 17, 9:57 am, gregory.car...@gmail.com wrote:
>> "If they are indeed pornography, then it seems we have implicated
>> Wiki, Google, Telstra, OPTUS, several galleries, publishers, ISPs,
>> TNT, FedEx, Australia Post and several thousand others that are
>> making a jolly profit from distributing child pornography. "
>>
>> People have been prosecuted & convicted for having it.
>
> Then you had better get cracking. You need to prosecute
> about 40 of the biggest companies on the planet, all of the libraries,
> and most of the art galleries. Let us know how you get on.
>
>> Henson goes further than Hamilton and the latter is very restricted.
>
> Rubbish.
>
Ohgod how I hate dogma and people who operate on beliefs rather than facts.
In 1967, the Danish Medico-Legal council recommended decriminalisation
of pornography:
"'On the basis of general psychiatric and child psychiatric experience
it CANNOT be assumed that the sexual orientation, the psychological
development or attitudes toward sexual life and sexual-ethical norms in
adults or in children can be influenced in a harmful direction through
... pornographic literature, pictures or films'.
The Penal Law Committee's proposal was adopted by the Danish Parliament
in 1967 by 159 votes to thirteen.
...
As to legalisation of pornography, Sweden followed suit in 1970, and the
Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) in 1973".
by contrast, in the US, regulation of pornography intensified:
"Meanwhile, despite the negative findings of the United States Obscenity
Commission, which were later reiterated by the British Williams
committee in 1979, the idea that pornography may be the direct cause of
rape had continued to gain support among antipornography groups; and
since the mid-1970s the Christian/Conservative moralists viewpoints
(which had been voiced, among others, by the minority of the U.S.
Obscenity Commission) were joined by feminist oriented groups and
authors in the USA. Leading figures included Brownmiller, Lederer,
Russel, Dworkin and Morgan, who publicised the slogan: 'Pornography is
the theory, and rape is the practice'. Feminists' claimed that the
growing availability of increasingly more violent and misogynous
pornography was the direct cause of increasing numbers of increasingly
violent rapes".
http://www.aic.gov.au/publications/proceedings/14/kutchinsky.pdf
It is sobering to see what happened subsequent to the 1960s in Denmark,
Sweden, Germany and the US (page 6 in the above).
"America's cultural peculiarities (as seen from Europe) are well
documented: the nation's marked religiosity, its selective prurience,[1]
its affection for guns and prisons (the EU has 87 prisoners per 100,000
people; America has 685), and its embrace of the death penalty. As T.R.
Reid puts it in The United States of Europe, 'Yes, Americans put up huge
billboards reading 'Love Thy Neighbor,' but they murder and rape their
neighbors at rates that would shock any European nation'".
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/17726
In Japan, "Change from this conservative posture of the 1960s, 1970s and
early 1980s began to most markedly shift toward permissive in the late
1980s and early 1990s"
had this outcome:
"the incidence of rape has been steadily and dramatically decreasing
over the period under review. The incidence of rape has progressively
declined ... a dramatic reduction in incidence of some two-thirds".
In addition:
"It is also noteworthy that during this period, according to J.N.P.A.
records, the rate of convictions for rape increased markedly from 85% in
1972 to more than 90% in the 1980s and more than 95% in the 1990s"
More important (back to the topic), what about child abuse?
"The most dramatic decrease in sex crimes was seen when attention was
focused on the number and age of rapists and victims among younger
groups (Table 2)....The number of victims also decreased particularly
among the females younger than 13 (Table 2). In 1972, 8.3% of the
victims were younger than 13. In 1995 the percentage of victims younger
than 13 years of age dropped to 4.0%".
http://www.hawaii.edu/PCSS/online_artcls/pornography/prngrphy_rape_jp.html
...and this is about pornography - not art!
How about Australia?
"Between 1990 and 2000, there have been 450 child sexual assaults by
church workers acknowledged by Australian courts, compared with no
convictions for child sexual assault by workers in the sex industry.
Both the churches and the sex industry employ around 20,000 people".
(Hypocrites, Eros Foundation, April 2000)
Goodness gracious, so who is calling for the regulation?
And who is it that ought to be regulated?
"Outside the churches, major steps are also being taken to address child
sexual abuse, like the recent national Police Operation Auxin, which
netted hundreds of offenders, laying over 2000 charges ranging from
possession of child pornography to rape, serious sexual assault, child
sex tourism and the creation of child sex pornography images. The
offenders came from many walks of life, including childcare providers,
teachers, police officers, doctors, child welfare officers, defence
personnel, an assistant to a state MP and an Anglican priest.
However, when you look at all the child sex cases reported in the media,
it’s striking to note that not one single offender comes from the adult
sex industry! While media coverage of Auxin was comprehensive, almost no
mention was made about the fact that for the last decade every state
government in Australia has diverted much needed police resources away
from child pornography, more than $20 million, to focus instead on
prosecuting sex shop owners for selling federally classified,
adults-only, X-rated videos".
http://www.deception.com.au/1999_2005.htm
When it comes to the religious industry, it's almost as if they're
pleading to be caught - like a criminal trailing a detective around,
dropping clues and hoping to get caught.
And I haven't said a single word about art. It's like we've collectively
descended to the level of *assuming* that pornography is a problem (the
evidence is that it isn't) and the bloody religious right prudes are now
trying to link art with pornography.
The problem is that it diverts resources away from addressing the real
problem.
parr...@yahoo.com
> Addinall wrote:
> > On Jun 17, 9:57 am, gregory.car...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> "If they are indeed pornography, then it seems we have implicated
> >> Wiki, Google, Telstra, OPTUS, several galleries, publishers, ISPs,
> >> TNT, FedEx, Australia Post and several thousand others that are
> >> making a jolly profit from distributing child pornography. "
>
> >> People have been prosecuted & convicted for having it.
>
> > Then you had better get cracking. You need to prosecute
> > about 40 of the biggest companies on the planet, all of the libraries,
> > and most of the art galleries. Let us know how you get on.
>
> >> Henson goes further than Hamilton and the latter is very restricted.
>
> > Rubbish.
>
> Ohgod how I hate dogma and people who operate on beliefs rather than facts.
Then you must despise asdfghas and Sparky, then.. I can show you
repeated examples of the silly fuckers going loopy in a most hilarious
manner, based on nothing mor ethan the screechy little voices in their
little misshapend and otherwise empty heads..
But you're no more honest or consistent than they are, are you
dear? :-)
your pal
/PK
B J Foster
Go for it
>
> But you're no more honest or consistent than they are, are you
> dear? :-)
Dear?
>
> your pal
> /PK
>
Pal?
parr...@yahoo.com
Here's a doozy:
<215f8678-ffae-4e23-b7b9-8a9adb90e...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
>
>
>
> > But you're no more honest or consistent than they are, are you
> > dear? :-)
>
> Dear?
Yes dear. Not HONEST dear. Tea, dear?
>
>
>
> > your pal
> > /PK
>
> Pal?
YES, dear. Pal, dear. Cake dear? We put your pills in it dear. Yes
PILLS, dear. Have a nice cup of tea and watch the Sullivans, dear.
SULLIVANS, dear.
- Dölj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -
B J Foster
> On 18 Juni, 00:51, B J Foster <bjfos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> parri...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>> On 17 Juni, 12:43, B J Foster <bjfos...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>>> Addinall wrote:
>>>>> On Jun 17, 9:57 am, gregory.car...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>> "If they are indeed pornography, then it seems we have implicated
>>>>>> Wiki, Google, Telstra, OPTUS, several galleries, publishers, ISPs,
>>>>>> TNT, FedEx, Australia Post and several thousand others that are
>>>>>> making a jolly profit from distributing child pornography. "
>>>>>> People have been prosecuted & convicted for having it.
>>>>> Then you had better get cracking. You need to prosecute
>>>>> about 40 of the biggest companies on the planet, all of the libraries,
>>>>> and most of the art galleries. Let us know how you get on.
>>>>>> Henson goes further than Hamilton and the latter is very restricted.
>>>>> Rubbish.
>>>> Ohgod how I hate dogma and people who operate on beliefs rather than facts.
>>> Then you must despise asdfghas and Sparky, then.. I can show you
>>> repeated examples of the silly fuckers going loopy in a most hilarious
>>> manner, based on nothing mor ethan the screechy little voices in their
>>> little misshapend and otherwise empty heads..
>> Go for it
>
> Here's a doozy:
>
> <215f8678-ffae-4e23-b7b9-8a9adb90e...@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>
>
You're clearly a fuckwit
>>
>>
>>> But you're no more honest or consistent than they are, are you
>>> dear? :-)
>> Dear?
>
> Yes dear. Not HONEST dear. Tea, dear?
>
*plonk*
parr...@yahoo.com
Possibly, but still able to outwit Sparky with consumate ease - and
show him to be a pompous, humourless squealing nancy who can't
construct a fact based argument and has to lie about his opponents.
But as I correctly stated, you are too dishonest to admit that...
>
>
>
> >>> But you're no more honest or consistent than they are, are you
> >>> dear? :-)
> >> Dear?
>
> > Yes dear. Not HONEST dear. Tea, dear?
>
> *plonk*
QED, dear.
>
>
>
>
>
> >>> your pal
> >>> /PK
> >> Pal?
>
> > YES, dear. Pal, dear. Cake dear? We put your pills in it dear. Yes
> > PILLS, dear. Have a nice cup of tea and watch the Sullivans, dear.
> > SULLIVANS, dear.
>
> > - Dölj citerad text -
> >> - Visa citerad text -- Dölj citerad text -
>
> - Visa citerad text -- Dölj citerad text -
gregory...@gmail.com
world would have continued it's pursuit of "Truth is Beauty,
and Beauty, Truth" pretty much undisturbed, and largely
ignored by the masses, as it has done for centuries. "
Pure delusion, most of the complaints came from anti-child porn
agencies overseas. So Oz is in dialogue with itself and estranged from
reality, a sure sign you are turning into Texas or Japan or something.
Obviously the places which have criminalized it complained via the IWF
or whatever, in the same way they must have hit on your naked teens
bath-tubbing it in your magazines, Brits, Americans and Swedes are not
going to know that is PG or G or whatever, they'tre going to think
'child abuse' etc.
What other 'art' has the classification board free passed without
telling us?
I was gobsmacked by some the imaginary drivel Alison Croggon was
posting to her blogs, it is no wonder we have FBI people telling folks
it was time to cut Oz loose before you make pedophilia into a virtue..
Go be like Cambodia or Japan, that's the message.
Gregory
gregory...@gmail.com
the
Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) in 1973"
Buying sex is illegal in Sweden,
in Denmark the schoolgirls do sex shows ( in school) for male teachers
to work out who gets to sit in the front of the canteen, and the UN
was impeached to protect DAnish kindergarten pupils from the
pedophiles affecting the system. Denmark didn't turn out to be too
harmless.
In Oz, you have a photog beng compared to Caravaggio
That also being a bit unhinged, even if we ignore the fact he is
banned from major galleries in Europe, & the USA in relation to his
kiddie fetish stuff.
In Oz ( I concede) he is a national treasure.
Gregory
gregory...@gmail.com
Prosecute Amazon, well seems like a plan, lets sort out Bill Henson
first, he's very little leverage in the EU and the USA,
Cate might have time to help him, I gather Disney are not offering her
any major movies, or any, She can write letters for him.
Hopefully listing galleries which exhibit his kiddie fetish material
as opposed to Ms Crogon's effort, which struggled.
Could it be, that Henson has a local market in Oz for his kiddie stuff
and the wonder of the thing doesn't travel?
B J Foster
> "As to legalisation of pornography, Sweden followed suit in 1970, and
> the
> Federal Republic of Germany (West Germany) in 1973"
>
> Buying sex is illegal in Sweden,
So what?
>
> in Denmark the schoolgirls do sex shows ( in school) for male teachers
> to work out who gets to sit in the front of the canteen, and the UN
> was impeached to protect DAnish kindergarten pupils from the
> pedophiles affecting the system. Denmark didn't turn out to be too
> harmless.
What are you talking about?
>
> In Oz, you have a photog beng compared to Caravaggio
>
> That also being a bit unhinged, even if we ignore the fact he is
> banned from major galleries in Europe, & the USA
Such as?
> in relation to his
> kiddie fetish stuff.
Garbage
>
> In Oz ( I concede) he is a national treasure.
>
> Gregory
People like you (and I concede), the PM are dangerous because you divert
resources away from the real paedophiles.
B J Foster
Unintelligible, unsubstantiated, misdirected bullshit
B J Foster
"Bill Henson? Porn Culture? Get real
...
Australian politicians have shown themselves to be far too immature to
contribute to (Malcolm Turnbull being the clear exception). But why do
we have to suffer the hand-wringing sermons from self-appointed moral
guardians?
...
Yes, we need to protect children from abuse. But does anyone seriously
think that p-edophiles are turned on by a Henson photograph or – as the
Australia Institute laughably suggested – from a David Jones catalogue?
(chuckle)
The facts are that p-edophiles have a sick fixation with children
looking like children – not like adults. And, horrifically, the vast
majority of s-xual abuse of children takes place inside families. Every
study of child s-xual assault tells us that about 95% of all cases
involve a person who knew the child and stood in a position of trust –
parent, uncle, scoutmaster, priest. The victims do not provoke this
horror by wearing lip gloss or skimpy shorts – they cannot provoke
anything. They are children.
Your six-year-old son or daughter should be allowed to run around stark
naked if they wish without any fear of any grown-up molesting them or
even thinking about it. Children cannot provoke child abuse. And anyway,
child abusers don’t care what their victims are wearing. Some are
probably turned on by kids in crisp white cricket gear. Shall we ban
cricket?
...
So ban TV if you want. Close down the art galleries. Police Bondi Beach
for bikinis that are too skimpy. But if you think that will save one
child from one act of s-xual assault, you are painfully deluded".
http://www.crikey.com.au/Politics/20080530-Bill-Henson-P-rn-Culture-Get-real-.html
d-e-l-u-d-e-d
fasgnadh
Fix your newsreader you newbie twonk, you show my text
attributed to YOU.. that's plagiarism:
Unlike the ignorant puritan wowsers, civilized people do
not regard nudity as equalling obscenity.
The fact that you think a naked girl is dirty says more about
you than about the girl or the artist.
What are you going to do with all the penises you break off
from the Vatican masterpieces?
That you never protested the Vietnamese girl, naked because Napalm
had burned off her clothes, shows you are one of those perverts
disturbed by innocent nudity, but not obscene violence.
sick fuck!
> fasgnadh wrote:
>> Addinall wrote:
>>> Child porn is a BAAAADDD thing. The distinction is being tested
>>> between what is and what is not art. Just a little google around the
>>> art world reveals many organisastions and large galleries hosting much
>>> of the same stuff. Politically, this has been an interesting few days
>>> when we see the leader of the country and the leader of the opposition
>>> outdoing each other at condemming the work of Bill Henson. Having no
>>> interest in child pornography, but being aware of various 'big name'
>>> photographers, I wonder if our national galleries are going to be
>>> subjected to scutiny when they want to display a work. I am aware of a
>>> few photographers who have worked in this genre over the years.
>>>
>>> Hmmmmm. Over the years David Hamilton has created works that are
>>> deliberatly erotic in nature, using under age models. So has Sally
>>> Mann,andJock Sturgess.
>>>
>>> Google.com.au carries all of this 'porn'. 73, 89 - 97 Jones Street
>>> Ultimo NSW 2007 AUSTRALIA
>>>
>>> I believe Telstra carries it over the net for MONEY! So do OPTUS....
>>>
>>>
>>> http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&q=David+Hamilton&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2
>>>
>>>
>>> http://images.google.com.au/images?hl=en&pwst=1&resnum=0&q=Bill%20Henson&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And the ABC.....
>>>
>>> http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/deepend/features/gallery/gallery2005/img/artworks/henson_big.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.abc.net.au/rn/arts/deepend/features/gallery/gallery2005/gallery/henson.htm&h=533&w=350&sz=43&hl=en&start=8&sig2=thfoMevqrcZUW30vFmVdrw&um=1&tbnid=kCsPu67VDhU-UM:&tbnh=132&tbnw=87&ei=mP9ISNOaDKP0pgTniYHqBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3DBill%2BHenson%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
>>>
>>>
>>> And Amazon....
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/images/2732434981/ref=dp_image_text_0/701-5523919-1370722?ie=UTF8&n=916520&s=books
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/images/286665451X/ref=dp_image_text_0/701-5523919-1370722?ie=UTF8&n=916520&s=books
>>>
>>>
>>> http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41PJ9B5VH1L._SL500_AA240_.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.amazon.com/David-Hamilton-Twenty-Years-Artist/dp/1854102664&h=240&w=240&sz=8&hl=en&start=32&sig2=TAnjkZA7ib-DSbN-LtQVhQ&tbnid=3MC4tE49UA97RM:&tbnh=110&tbnw=110&ei=OAlJSOnHCIyipwTGsM3mDQ&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDavid%2BHamilton%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> The Age...
>>>
>>> http://images.theage.com.au/ftage/ffximage/2008/05/24/svHENSON_narrowweb__300x443,0.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> And Wiki....
>>>
>>> http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/95/Holiday_Snapshots_cover.jpg/230px-Holiday_Snapshots_cover.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holiday_Snapshots_(David_Hamilton)&h=263&w=230&sz=11&hl=en&start=8&sig2=GdePz7Tlh9XvIVGn3FIOOw&tbnid=-a5qotyymyvVlM:&tbnh=112&tbnw=98&ei=dwdJSLi5GZ2IpATa__TrBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3DDavid%2BHamilton%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den
>>>
>>>
>>> Two dirty old men, or artists? Can't be a Labor - Liberal thing as
>>> both sides of
>>> politics for years have supported these two people publishing. And it
>>> doesn't
>>> seem to be exclusively a 'man' thing. The photographer Sally Mann
>>> seems to
>>> work the same genre..
>>>
>>> http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://web.uni-frankfurt.de/fb04/fotobox/bildersites/bilder/sally_mann_das_furchtbare_bild.jpg&imgrefurl=http://web.uni-frankfurt.de/fb04/fotobox/bildersites/sites/sally_mann_das_furchtbare_bild.htm&h=535&w=650&sz=227&hl=en&start=1&sig2=3qsZTXr0UHZL9WphWpRfsw&tbnid=PufVOYtmPBRdrM:&tbnh=113&tbnw=137&ei=GwpJSPTmL5SypgSn-uDcBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSally%2BMann%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.stefan-rohner.net/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/carina-tuer.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.stefan-rohner.net/blog/%3Fp%3D24&h=437&w=650&sz=198&hl=en&start=10&sig2=P_oQ-kFIXqluNjBKHZrrRg&tbnid=vc_O18un-o1DMM:&tbnh=92&tbnw=137&ei=GwpJSPTmL5SypgSn-uDcBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSally%2BMann%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DG
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.bongorama.com/stockholm/uploaded_images/prof_11_sally_mann_pose-769707.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.bunnydesign.com/images/sally_mann.jpg
>>>
>>> http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://bp3.blogger.com/_cx22bAOuyVg/RhExs-At5KI/AAAAAAAAAIE/oiDD66O_50Y/s400/Virginia_at_5%2BSally%2BMann.jpg&imgrefurl=http://cigarettesandpurity.blogspot.com/2007/04/just-one-more-picture.html&h=296&w=360&sz=15&hl=en&start=34&sig2=upIyfBw6GCKo1gM9MwYOPQ&tbnid=TabqG79KGFYBoM:&tbnh=99&tbnw=121&ei=bg5JSJT5PIGaoQSOwojXBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3DSally%2BMann%26start%3D20%26gbv%3D2%26ndsp%3D20%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN
>>>
>>>
>>> And from Jock....
>>>
>>> http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=http://www.photoarts.com/Preview/photoreviewauction98/Sturges.jpeg&imgrefurl=http://pondmusings.blogspot.com/2007/09/naked-truth-interview-with-jock.html&h=468&w=600&sz=18&hl=en&start=1&sig2=F440qZSz_TktHFoPKS4tNw&tbnid=sqQrKD7Hp1IBGM:&tbnh=105&tbnw=135&ei=RxRJSKz5JoyipwT97KzMBA&prev=/images%3Fq%3DJock%2BSturgess%26gbv%3D2%26hl%3Den
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.tokinowasuremono.com/tenrankag/izen/tk0710/no-1-l/015.jpg
>>>
>>> http://gfx.dagbladet.no/pub/artikkel/5/53/533/533710/bilder_960_1209203511.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>> http://www.natury.de/nacky/radiant2-500.jpg
>>>
>>> http://dimag.no/uploaded_images/JOck_Sturges-741375.jpg
>>>
>>> http://www.publico.es/resources/archivos/2008/4/8/120766856700116_STURGESgd.jpg
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> All of these images are catelogued by www.google.com.au,
>>> and all available for sale through Amazon, Dymocks etc.
>>
>> Thanks for sharing your soft porn collection with all
>> the wankers in Usenet, Mark..
>> ..my shares in paper tissues just went
>> through the roof. Thanks to Doug doggie-style
>> and Sirvile Handjob I can retire! ;-)
>>
>> The upside is ..Chris Textor won't be posting for weeks!
>>
>>
>> But, on a serious note, there is one famous child nude
>> I believe you have left out.
>>
>> And it is truly pornographic and obscene, so I warn you
>> all before looking, be prepared to be shocked and disturbed,
>> even if you weren't at the time;
>>
>> http://home.millsaps.edu/mcelvrs/Vietnam_girl_napalm.jpg
>>
>> It's not the girls nakedness that is obscene, it is not
>> the vulnerability which her nakedness expresses, and it
>> is not the fact that some white male recorded it on film..
>>
>> it is the context.
>>
>> The boy next her, even though fully clothed, conveys the
>> same horror...
>>
>> The War on children is obscene.
>>
>>
>>> Are they art or pornography.
>>
>> It's a case by case issue, ultimately.
>>
>> There was a news report of a woman artist having an exhibition
>> of her work "in support of Bill Henson"!?
>>
>> I don't know her work, it could be good and her intentions
>> admirable, or she could be riding on a bandwagon, at the moment
>> these decisions are maid by the censors, appointed by those we elect.
>>
>> Not a perfect system but it beats totalitarian oppression on
>> one hand or pure capitalist de-regulation on the other.
>>
>> Moderation in all things. brother..
>>
>> especially regarding moderation. ;-)
>>
>>
>> > I'd be interested in hearing
>>> mostly from the ld regulars of aus.pol, the ones who know how
>>> to present and argument.
>>
>>
>> I've already had my say on this one, Mark, so I am simply
>> pleased about the outcome.. 'convictions would not be
>> possible under the law' - DPP declining to prosecute.
>>
>>
>>
>> Date: Wed, 28 May 2008 19:33:27 +1000
>> From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
>> Subject: "Turnbull, Brown join forces in Henson's defence"
>> Message-ID: <483f238e$0$1023$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
>>
>> ..In which I praise fellow liberals Malcolm Turnbull and
>> Bob Brown for their cool rationality, and criticise
>> Elmer Rudd for his gutless and idiotic populism...
>> (quickly imitated by Brendan Bowdleriser)
>>
>>
>> Message-ID: <483e88ab$0$13948$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
>> .."what a piece of work is man", difference between
>> art and pornography and L'Origine du monde
>>
>> [I Read the first interesting article by Germaine Greer
>> for some time on this topic, recently. She copied my
>> argument by listing famous pubescent art images hanging in
>> galleries and churches for centuries, but she cited better
>> examples, because her knowledge of Western Art exceeds
>> even my own ;-]
>>
>> "Through a lens darkly' - Germaine Greer 2/6/2008
>> "Once again it is clear there is no hard and fast
>> distinction between art and pornography."
>>
>> http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/through-a-lens-darkly-20080601-2kgo.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> # Date: Sun, 01 Jun 2008 12:13:16 +1000
>> # From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
>> # Subject: Hetty Petty demands Liberals evict
>> # 'Child Porn Gallery' from their Party HQ
>> # Message-ID: <484205b4$0$17506$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
>> #
>> # "Gallery has premises in Liberal Party's block"
>> # - Sunday Herald Sun 1/6/2008
>> #
>> # "Witch Witch Burn the Witch!"
>> #
>> # "Anti-child abuse campaigner Hetty Johnson called on
>> # the Liberal Party to evict the gallery."
>> #
>> # Let the Liberals Go FREE!
>>
>> Defending my opponents freedom is the only way to
>> protect my own!
>>
>>
>> And, to the great credit of our legal system, the citizen
>> who made a complaint had it thoroughly investigated, the
>> police diligently did their duty and investigated it
>> thoroughly (much to our international embarrassment, oh well),
>> the case was handled sensibly, passed to the censors,
>> and the law was upheld.. "nudity is not pornography".
>>
>> Taken in conjunction with the arrests of 92 Australian
>> males caught downloading kiddie porn by Operation Centurion
>> I'd say we have the balance about right!
>>
>> If Hetty Petty had not filed a police complaint, the art
>> world would have continued it's pursuit of "Truth is Beauty,
>> and Beauty, Truth" pretty much undisturbed, and largely
>> ignored by the masses, as it has done for centuries.
>>
>> The politicians look decidedly shabby, crude populists
>> not much better than the shock jocks of talkback radio..
>> but we understand the cultural and political imperatives
>> that cause them to act that way... gutless philistines.
>>
>> An I have to recant my earlier suggestion that there should
>> be a better way to resolve such issues than dragging away
>> photos from a gallery and police interviewing artists...
>> ..on reflection I'm not sure there is a 'better way'..
>> more discrete might equal 'less transparent'.
>> I was wrong and would not like my error to be taken as
>> a criticism of the police or legal system.. in this case.
>>
>> (Damn.. that's twice I have been wrong now!
>> But once a decade is not a bad run!
>> Just wait till I start campaigning for nukes as the
>> solution to post-peak oil energy problems in a post
>> Howard environment! My enemies will have a field day ;-)
>>
>> We have a great deal to be thankful in a society which
>> can handle such complex and finely nuanced issues with
>> calm, rational, balance.. while all around the
>> shrill shills are screaming hysterically.
>>
>>
>>> If they are indeed pornography, then it seems we have implicated
>>> Wiki, Google, Telstra, OPTUS, several galleries, publishers, ISPs,
>>> TNT, FedEx, Australia Post and several thousand others that are
>>> making a jolly profit from distributing child pornography.
>>
>> Well that's a lot of folk to be prosecuted!
>>
>>>
>>> If it is Art, then where is the distinction made?
>>>
>>> Are Bill Henson, David Hamilton, Sally Mann and Jock Sturges
>>> pornographers or artists?
>>>
>>> This distinction raises some very interesting questions for those
>>> in the art industry, but also for those of us in the comunications
>>> and Web service industries. It certainly raises some questions
>>> for Publishers, Libraries and Galleries.
>>>
>>> Rudd has expressed his opinion that he doesn't like it much, but
>>> the legality lies with the Public service. "Absolutely revolting"
>>> I think was the quote.
>>>
>>> The Liberal Party's Brendan Nelson, who as leader of the
>>> opposition in parliament is the alternative prime minister,
>>> had also decried the exhibition. He said 52-year-old
>>> Henson's work 'violates all the fundamental values for which we
>>> stand.'
>>>
>>>
>>> I notice from the Australian poll (polls are notoriously bad
>>> statistics I know) shows that 60% of respondants think that
>>> the pictures are pretty much OK and should be displayed.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> What thought from the Shark Pond?
>>
>> I voted with my feet, years ago, Mark:
>>
>> # Message-ID: <4281B8E3...@yahoo.com.au>
>> # Date: Wed, 11 May 2005 17:48:51 +1000
>> # From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com.au>
>> #
>> # Sorry I was out when you called on Saturday arvo, Mark,
>> # as I mentioned I went with a friend to catch the Bill
>> # Henson exhibition at the NGV. A 30 year retrospective
>> # of his photographic works.. catch it when you are up
>> # from Geelong next.
>>
>>
>>
>>> Mark Addinall.
gregory...@gmail.com
That's the UN perspective, if you search on the Henson issue, you'll
see the only reference to 'rights' is borrowed from 'Pedophilia the
radical case'.
They're now (effectively) telling people kids have a right to vote for
child pornography. The pedophiles are also hitting on the leftist
groups to help them.
They were able to do that for 15 years in the UK and Holland before
people tweaked that the so-called commies were basically child sex
perverts with a leftist vocab. THey had to dump about sixty of them
from a range of public and corporate bodies.
When you get an arts collective talking like PIE/GLF, well, the answer
is simple, they're just pedophiles with a govt. grant, that's the way
it was in Holland and Britain.
So why not let 13 girls take nudie 'art' photos of themselves and
distribute it *exactly* like Bill Henson over the net? Why not let an
art teacher do it as well?
The sooner Henson is put in prison the sooner sanity can be applied to
these issues. He needs to be put in prison, an example has to be made,
he has went way too far.
Henson is a disgrace to Australia.
gregory...@gmail.com
>
"Then you had better get cracking. You need to prosecute
about 40 of the biggest companies on the planet, all of the
libraries,
and most of the art galleries. Let us know how you get on. "
Sheer BS, the cops in the USA and Europe have worked out he keeps his
bad habits to jurisdictions prepared to allow him immunity for his
kiddie fetish stuff.
His child abuse material has been banned by more galleries than
enough, including some cited as supporters by Alison Croggon!
( that was a joke, she knew that the Oz media would be too flapping
stupid & insular to check!)
The problem with you Ozers, is that, you need to check into a reality
based scenario, you're in self-dialogue within the confines of your
own pond.
So, Bill Henson is not widely supported in the USA, Britain or
anywhere else, he is an exercise in mayhem, a liability, his so-called
international career is probably damaged beyond repair
B J Foster
> On 17 Jun, 02:43, GrassyNoel <gera...@webace.com.au> wrote:
>> If these exact same photos had appeared only on websites rather than
>> in galleries, they would certainly be called child abuse if not porn.
>> Children can't give informed consent to this work any more than they
>> can give informed consent to sexual intercourse.
>
>
>
> That's the UN perspective, if you search on the Henson issue, you'll
> see the only reference to 'rights' is borrowed from 'Pedophilia the
> radical case'.
>
> They're now (effectively) telling people kids have a right to vote for
> child pornography. The pedophiles are also hitting on the leftist
> groups to help them.
Who is 'they' and what exactly are 'they' telling them?
Post some evidence please
>
> They were able to do that for 15 years in the UK and Holland before
> people tweaked that the so-called commies were basically child sex
> perverts with a leftist vocab. THey had to dump about sixty of them
> from a range of public and corporate bodies.
>
> When you get an arts collective talking like PIE/GLF, well, the answer
> is simple, they're just pedophiles with a govt. grant, that's the way
> it was in Holland and Britain.
Paedophiles in power are a considerable concern here as well - which is
why level-headed people get *very* concerned when the considerable
resources of the state are spent going after artists!
>
> So why not let 13 girls take nudie 'art' photos of themselves and
> distribute it *exactly* like Bill Henson over the net? Why not let an
> art teacher do it as well?
Who is calling for this to happen?
Please show some evidence
>
> The sooner Henson is put in prison the sooner sanity can be applied to
> these issues. He needs to be put in prison, an example has to be made,
> he has went way too far.
If you want to put anyone into prison you'll have to show evidence that
they've broken the law.
You haven't even bothered to read the law, have you?
The Act has been around since 1900. I'm sure you'll get around to it
sometime:
"(c) that, having regard to the circumstances in which the material
concerned was produced, used or intended to be used, the defendant was
acting for a genuine child protection, scientific, medical, legal,
ARTISTIC or other public benefit purpose and the defendant’s conduct was
reasonable for that purpose"
(Source: NSW Crimes Act, 1900)
>
> Henson is a disgrace to Australia.
"Henson's work is held in all major Australian collections including the
Art Gallery of NSW, Art Gallery of SA, Art Gallery of WA, National
Gallery of Victoria and the National Gallery of Australia.
Among international collections, Henson's work is held in the Solomon R
Guggenheim Museum, New York, the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, the
Los Angeles County Museum of Art, the Denver Art Museum, the Houston
Museum of Fine Art, 21C Museum, Louisville, the Montreal Museum of Fine
Art, Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris, the DG Bank Collection in
Frankfurt, and the Sammlung Volpinum and the Museum Moderner Kunst, Vienna".
http://www.artgallery.nsw.gov.au/sub/billhenson/artist.html
Next time check your facts before foaming off.
But hey, you're in excellent company - the PM, the Premier and the
Police Commissioner.
What an excellent theme for a Play: The PM, the Premier, the Police
Commissioner and the Prude and their Passion for Paedophilia.
B J Foster
>
>
>
> "Then you had better get cracking. You need to prosecute
> about 40 of the biggest companies on the planet, all of the
> libraries,
> and most of the art galleries. Let us know how you get on. "
>
> Sheer BS, the cops in the USA and Europe have worked out he keeps his
> bad habits to jurisdictions prepared to allow him immunity for his
> kiddie fetish stuff.
>
> His child abuse material has been banned by more galleries than
> enough, including some cited as supporters by Alison Croggon!
>
> ( that was a joke, she knew that the Oz media would be too flapping
> stupid & insular to check!)
>
> The problem with you Ozers, is that, you need to check into a reality
> based scenario, you're in self-dialogue within the confines of your
> own pond.
Our pond:
"Henson's work is held in all major Australian collections including the
Art Gallery of NSW, Art Gallery of SA, Art Gallery of WA, National
Gallery of Victoria and the National Gallery of Australia.
Over the pond:
Among international collections, Henson's work is held in the Solomon R
Guggenheim Museum, New York, the San Francisco Museum of Modern Art, the
Los Angeles County Museum of Art, the Denver Art Museum, the Houston
Museum of Fine Art, 21C Museum, Louisville, the Montreal Museum of Fine
Art, Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris, the DG Bank Collection in
Frankfurt, and the Sammlung Volpinum and the Museum Moderner Kunst, Vienna".
>
> So, Bill Henson is not widely supported in the USA, Britain or
> anywhere else, he is an exercise in mayhem, a liability, his so-called
> international career is probably damaged beyond repair
>
What is your purpose in attacking artists?
Shouldn't you be investigating priests instead?
(450 convictions versus nil for the entire sex industry)
"...a few years ago a country was so alarmed about these issues they
banned all TV and advertising. No Bill Henson either. No culture unless
it conformed to very narrow moral parameters. Phew!
The only trouble was, the country was Afghanistan under the Taliban. Not
by all accounts a fun time for women and kids.
gregory...@gmail.com
(450 convictions versus nil for the entire sex industry) "
I've done reasonably well on the religion front, I've targeted each
and every one that came into view, that's a matter of record, it is
also the reason my funding shifted from local Catholics to the United
States, in my hood, the Catholic hierarchy wanted to sleep until it
was all over, I told them it was never going to be over unless they
acted. So, it was difficult, it is still difficult.
the truth of the (comparative) matter is, that teachers in state
schools are more of a prob in the USA, Britain and Oz.
So on the 'child prostitution' front if one takes the lowest UK
estimate (ignoring FBI data) then one has 50 or 60 thousand sex crimes
per annum, that's a domestic & academic view.
The cops have discovered more kids used by teachers for child
pornography than teachers who have been thumped by kids.The problem
with official stats of course, is that they're often wrong.
The Humberside police want to run with 800,000 child pornography
transactions (specific images) by Brit teachers. That will obviously
be only the tip of the iceberg because it is only some images, out of
a total of 14 million transactions.
The problem ( ersatz-pedophilia) is mainstreaming. It has essentially
become normalized. I would also relate the Henson images to that same
phenomena.
That is to say, child pornogrphy in Britain is family viewing in Oz.
That must illustrate something. I've hammered away at the Catholic
abuses, I've put a lot in the newspapers, I'll keep doing it, and I'm
also working on Henson, who is in my view, a bigger problem, he
represents the vanguard of legalization.
The other thing is, if it is legal for a 13 year old girl to consent
to Henson doing it via the net, she may as well go into business
(using the same agency) for herself.
Gregory
B J Foster
> "Shouldn't you be investigating priests instead?
> (450 convictions versus nil for the entire sex industry) "
>
>
>
> I've done reasonably well on the religion front, I've targeted each
> and every one that came into view, that's a matter of record, it is
> also the reason my funding shifted from local Catholics to the United
> States, in my hood, the Catholic hierarchy wanted to sleep until it
> was all over, I told them it was never going to be over unless they
> acted. So, it was difficult, it is still difficult.
>
> the truth of the (comparative) matter is, that teachers in state
> schools are more of a prob in the USA, Britain and Oz.
Acknowledged.
>
> So on the 'child prostitution' front if one takes the lowest UK
> estimate (ignoring FBI data) then one has 50 or 60 thousand sex crimes
> per annum, that's a domestic & academic view.
>
> The cops have discovered more kids used by teachers for child
> pornography than teachers who have been thumped by kids.The problem
> with official stats of course, is that they're often wrong.
Acknowleged.
http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=3687&st=0&p=37408&#entry37408
>
> The Humberside police want to run with 800,000 child pornography
> transactions (specific images) by Brit teachers. That will obviously
> be only the tip of the iceberg because it is only some images, out of
> a total of 14 million transactions.
>
> The problem ( ersatz-pedophilia) is mainstreaming. It has essentially
> become normalized. I would also relate the Henson images to that same
> phenomena.
Nope.
Your problem is not mainstreaming but sidetracking.
Others have said this more eloquently:
"Porn ring 'targeted overseas children'
A trainee teacher, a swimming instructor and a former policeman were
among six suspects arrested yesterday with alleged links to the ring.
The men - four from regional New South Wales and two from Victoria - and
a 17-year-old boy have been charged following an 11-month investigation".
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/12/17/2120294.htm
"The hysterical media storm surrounding Bill Henson’s acclaimed work
seems kinda ridiculous next to the momentous events of Wednesday, that
could lead to the prosecution of some 1500 Australians.
But for the record, here’s what’s happened. The DPP has told NSW police
a prosecution of Henson was unlikely to succeed. The Australian Federal
Police have announced no charges would be laid over pictures in the
Australian National Gallery. And the Classifications Board has said an
invitation to Henson’s exhibition was 'justified by context' and is 'not
sexualised to any degree'. They’ve given it a PG rating.
So what’s left to do now?
Well, a downcast Mr Plod will probably have to drag the pictures, along
with his knuckles, back to the Paddington gallery they came from.
And the media will quietly let the story go.
And probably so will Miranda Devine – without a hint of regret and ready
to do it all again next week".
http://www.livenews.com.au/articles/2008/06/06/Will_Miranda_apologise_to_Bill_Henson_and_us_all
So what have you achieved?
At best you and Miranda Devine and the press owe Henson, the gallery,
the public and the federal police an apology.
And if resources are diverted in future, because of the noise from the
misinformed knuckle-draggers of the ban-it brigade then *they* will be
responsible for the sidetracking of resources away from main issue and
indirectly partly responsible for not solving the problem of paedophilia.
Instead of sidetracking, how about highlighting the good work that Mick
Keelty (the federal police) and the NSW police are doing to clean up the
real child porn ring?
PM Rudd is sensible enough to back down from his misinformed "absolutely
revolting" comment saying that it was a personal opinion not a legal
one. Well, gee, Mr Rudd, now we know that you'll attempt to separate
your personal opinions from your official ones in future - so we'll
never know what you *really* think. IOW, the cancer of closed minds if
running rife because of the neanderthal bonehead ban-it brigade.
>
> That is to say, child pornogrphy in Britain is family viewing in Oz.
>
> That must illustrate something. I've hammered away at the Catholic
> abuses, I've put a lot in the newspapers, I'll keep doing it, and I'm
> also working on Henson, who is in my view, a bigger problem, he
> represents the vanguard of legalization.
Good for you - focus on the real problem.
>
> The other thing is, if it is legal for a 13 year old girl to consent
> to Henson doing it via the net, she may as well go into business
> (using the same agency) for herself.
Who said it was legal for a 13yo to consent?
Go down the track of more regulation and you give more control to the
system - and the system is exactly where they're hiding out.
"Another friend made a point about the treatment of these photographs in
some newspapers, which blacked out body parts and pixelate faces. She
said it was only such treatment which made the images seem dirty.
It reminds me of the story of the guy shown a series of ink-stain images
by a psychiatrist and asked what they remind him of. In every instance
he says sex.
The psychiatrist finally tells him: 'I think you've got a problem'.
'I've got a problem?' the patient replies. 'It's you who has been
showing me all these dirty pictures'".
(Source: Doug Conway,
http://illawarra.yourguide.com.au/blogs/between-the-lines/henson-backlash-is-artfelt/780374.aspx)
Bob
gush an equal abundance of neurotic sanctimony.
Hopefully though, Henson's fetish will prove a particularly difficult
precedent for opinion police to follow; lest they unclasp their grasp
from their genitals to mess more with other liberties.
Bob