Why doesnt anyone speak out against Bahai persecution in Iran?
Seon F
Israel or death to America but no one (apart from people like Phillip
Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
islamofacist society.
There's so many stories in this website
http://www.bahai.org/persecution/iran posting them all would take all night.
We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the most
least harmful Religion's in the world.
David Moss
qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:
>
> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
> Israel or death to America but no one (apart from people like Phillip
> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
> islamofacist society.
Probably for the same reason we don't see much discussion of the Branch
Davidians and how the6y were persecuted in the USA
"A religious group known as the lived in their compound they called Mt.
Carmel just outside Waco, Texas. On April 19, 1993 agents of the United
States government attacked their compound and murdered helpless women and
children with battle tanks, flame-throwers, and poison gas. Nearly 100
innocent people lost their lives as a result."
Reason?
Because almost nobody in our society is either a Branch Davidian or a
Bahai.
People "like us" get much more sympathy, and press, when they are
persecuted than people who are not like us.
People "not like us" get much more negative press when they persecute
others than people who are "like us".
Why are you picking on the Iranians? Could it be because most of them are
not "like you"?
Why to you not condemn the Septics for incinerating the Branch Davidians?
Too much like you?
--
David Moss
Personal opinion only
The Australian Politics Resource
http://politics.sunnybar.dynip.com
Seon F
"David Moss" <q032...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Xns9AB4D13D62E5q0...@61.9.191.5...
They don't allow Bahais to get an education and they throw innocent Bahai's
in jail.
But you have a point about people having the "like us" attitude. Lots of
people in our society are Christian so when Muslims who convert to
Christianity get killed that usually stirs up something from within.
By the way i feel sorry for the children of the Branch Dividians even though
I'm not like them. But the rest could have left whenever they wanted to and
it was David koresh's fault.
David Moss
If "they could have left whenever they wanted to" is a justification for
the BDs in the USA, it applies to the Bahai in Iran too.
In my perfect world the BDs could have told the ATF agents to f*ck off
when they knocked at the door and they would have just shrugged and
walked away.
Likewise the Bahai in Iran could do whatever it is they do and the
Muslims there would just shrug and put up with it.
Unfortunately Bahaism grew out of Shi-ite Islam, and the Shi-ites still
see it as a form of heresy, a perversion of their own faith. It is easy
to see why it gets up the noses of an easily irritated bunch of
fundamentalists.
Just as the US government couldn't leabe the Branch davidians in peace
once they were challenged, the Iranians are unlikely to leave the Bahai
in peace.
In this imperfect world, an exodus to a more agreeable political climate
might be the best thing for everyone.
Australia has lots of room and I wouldn't object to people of the Bahai
faith living next door to me. There are worse neighbors.
fasgnadh
> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
> Israel or death to America but no one (apart from people like Phillip
> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
> islamofacist society.
Some of us have.
Just as I have defended Islam against anti-Muslim bigots.
I have defended women persecuted by the Taliban and the Bahá'í
who are persecuted in Iran. This is why I am attacked by extremists
from all sides. In this case I was reminding Kangarooistan, that Muslims
are not only persecuted, but persecutors:
# Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 12:43:14 +1000
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# Message-ID: <46467b36$0$28584$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# people of good faith in all religions share these values,
# and that such affection and respect, the foundation of a
# civilized society, belongs to other peoples mothers as well
# as our own, never to be beaten with sticks by the Taliban,
# or tortured by the Iranian Mullahs because they are Bahai.
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:26:29 +1000
# Message-ID: <4662c17b$0$26030$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# When Dawkins has flayed away the detritus encrusting these dogmatic
# religious structures we will be left with the heart of faith; five
# little old Methodist ladies selling cakes to raise money for charity..
# or the Muslim family, which had abused their Bahai neighbours until
# one day the expectant wife needed to be driven to hospital, and the
# Bahai's had a car. After that they were friends and when the Islamic
# Revolutionary Guard was rampaging through the neighbourhood
# looking for Bahai's the Muslim father and his son stood,
# blocking the Gate and said "No Bahai's here.. "
#
# That is the true Religion, you find it in all faiths
But my favourite Bahai story is about a little old Persian
grandmother, a dear friend of mine, who was tortured in Iran,
and taught me that to blame all Muslims, or the Koran, for her
suffering would be a childish mistake:
# Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:44:39 +1100
# From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
# aus.politics,aus.religion.islam,aus.religion,aus.culture.true-blue
# Subject: Re: A positive Christmas Message from Islam
# Message-ID: <476f4745$0$4007$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
#
# I have posts in the Usenet archives about the torture of
# my friend in the dungeons of Teheran which would make your hair
# stand on end! They told her all she had to do was renounce
# her faith and declare herself a Muslim, and she could go free.
#
# 11 of her companions in jail were executed.
#
# Do you blathering Idiots think you have anything to tell me,
# or her, about the Iranian mullahs? Her people have been
# persecuted in Iran since it was Persia! They are banned from
# government employment, their children cannot enter university
# they are tortured and killed.
#
# And, here is the difference between that woman, a woman of true
# faith, and you rabid dogs... she invites Muslim Uni students
# who live in her block of flats, in for dinner.
#
# She hobbles about on feet still broken from the bastinado
# and serves them tea and Persian sweets.
#
# She wins them over with her genuine warmth and affection. B^D
#
# She follows this bloke's father, who was also beaten and
# tortured, and finally exiled from Persia.. The son is called
# Abdul Baha and though his father and his entire family were
# mistreated by the Imams, this photo shows him being Knighted
# by the British for his service ...to the Palestinians!
#
# http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AbdolBaha%27s_knighting_ceremony.jpg
#
# Standing behind him you can see representatives of the
# Ottoman Sultan, who had, at the request of the Persians,
# cast the entire family into a prison in Akka, a city so
# pestilential it was said that birds flying overhead would fall
# from the sky, dead.
#
# How can a man win over such determined and vicious enemies, gain not
# merely the release of his family but the affection of so many that
# when he died Christians, Muslims and Jews thronged to his funeral
# and wept?
#
# Such are the true believers, be they Christian, Muslim or Jew.
#
# "Peace be with you" as my Catholic friends say in church,
# turning to those around them, be they prostitute, Tax collector
# or the returned Messiah, you can't tell by looking and certainly
# not from labels.. like Christian, Muslim or Jew.
> There's so many stories in this website
> http://www.bahai.org/persecution/iran posting them all would take all
> night.
> We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the
> most least harmful Religion's in the world.
One of the reasons you hear little about the persecution is
that the Bahá'í themselves do not engage in political protest.
You won't find them carrying placards, disrupting traffic or
snatching someones Olympic torch to make their point.
http://www.905bahais.com/youth_mona.htm
---------
"Will this budget help me keep my home,
put groceries in my trolly or keep my job"
- Brenda's Budget Bawling
Well, No, Brenda, it's not the governments job
to put food in your trolly, you useless bludger,
and believe me,
NOTHING CAN SAVE YOUR JOB!
---------
Mission Accomplished
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------------
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-----------
Government Shill #2
>We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
>Israel
There are lots of Israelis in the world.
>or death to America
There are lots of Americans in the world.
>but no one (apart from people like Phillip
>Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
>islamofacist society.
Because there are fuck all Bahais in the world. 99% of the world's population
have probably never heard of a Bahai. Apart from the few posts I've seen from
you where Bahai is mentioned the only other time I've ever heard it was on a
television show (MDA - ABC).
>There's so many stories in this website
>http://www.bahai.org/persecution/iran posting them all would take all night.
>We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the most
>least harmful Religion's in the world.
"one of the most least harmful..."????
Bwahahahahahaha!
Shill #2
--
Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity;
and I'm not sure about the universe.
Albert Einstein
Peter Webb
"Government Shill #2" <gov....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ku1g44t79p14hr75c...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:29:42 +1000, "Seon F" <se...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>
>>We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
>>Israel
>
> There are lots of Israelis in the world.
>
>>or death to America
>
> There are lots of Americans in the world.
>
>>but no one (apart from people like Phillip
>>Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
>>islamofacist society.
>
> Because there are fuck all Bahais in the world. 99% of the world's
> population
> have probably never heard of a Bahai.
There is a Bahai temple up the road from where I live. My daughter did it
for religious ed in primary school, and for a while claimed that was her
religion.
> Apart from the few posts I've seen from
> you where Bahai is mentioned the only other time I've ever heard it was on
> a
> television show (MDA - ABC).
>
Gee, that's unfortunate. Apparently the gold standard for whether a group
deserves to be free from persecution is whether you have heard of them, and
apparently you haven't heard about much.
Government Shill #2
<webbf...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Government Shill #2" <gov....@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:ku1g44t79p14hr75c...@4ax.com...
>> On Thu, 5 Jun 2008 18:29:42 +1000, "Seon F" <se...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>>
>>>We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
>>>Israel
>>
>> There are lots of Israelis in the world.
>>
>>>or death to America
>>
>> There are lots of Americans in the world.
>>
>>>but no one (apart from people like Phillip
>>>Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
>>>islamofacist society.
>>
>> Because there are fuck all Bahais in the world. 99% of the world's
>> population
>> have probably never heard of a Bahai.
>
>There is a Bahai temple up the road from where I live. My daughter did it
>for religious ed in primary school, and for a while claimed that was her
>religion.
Clap clap clap clap clap clap clap.
Good for you and your daughter.
>> Apart from the few posts I've seen from
>> you where Bahai is mentioned the only other time I've ever heard it was on
>> a
>> television show (MDA - ABC).
>>
>
>Gee, that's unfortunate. Apparently the gold standard for whether a group
>deserves to be free from persecution is whether you have heard of them, and
>apparently you haven't heard about much.
Do you have a reading disability? I never offered an opinion one way, or
another, on who I think deserves anything. Seon wanted to know why no one is
speaking out against Bahai persecution in Iran. I offered an opinion on why no
one is speaking out against Bahai persecution in Iran.
Shill #2
--
Those people who think they know everything are a great annoyance
to those of us who do.
Isaac Asimov
ŻDougŚÇ
In South Park it's called the Chewbacca defense.
"David Moss" <q032...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Xns9AB4D13D62E5q0...@61.9.191.5...
ŻDougŚÇ
What a maroon, what do Branch Davidians in the USA have to do
w/the persecution of Bahais, Christians and Jews in Iran?
Answer: nothing.
ŻDougŚÇ
news:4847a43c$0$30356$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
Gee muslims persecute so many different faiths it's hard to list them ALL.
Peter Webb
Sorry, I came in late to the thread.
I assume you deplore the treatment that Bahai followers receive in Iran?
David Moss
@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com:
>
> What a maroon, what do Branch Davidians in the USA have to do
> w/the persecution of Bahais, Christians and Jews in Iran?
All are examples of the most extreme form of religious persecution.
David Moss
@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com:
> A not so subtle argument of fallacy called argument by red herring.
> In South Park it's called the Chewbacca defense.
[cut]
Here in aus.politics we just call your technique "top posting" Dougie.
David Moss
news:484810e7$0$1024$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>
> There is a Bahai temple up the road from where I live. My daughter did
> it for religious ed in primary school, and for a while claimed that
> was her religion.
Hmm, could this explain your rabid anti-Iranian stance on Usenet?
Peter Webb
> "Peter Webb" <webbf...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
> news:484810e7$0$1024$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>
>>
>> There is a Bahai temple up the road from where I live. My daughter did
>> it for religious ed in primary school, and for a while claimed that
>> was her religion.
>
> Hmm, could this explain your rabid anti-Iranian stance on Usenet?
>
No. I didn't even know there were any Bahais in Iran until yesterday.
Personally, I am an atheist; my dislike of Iran is based upon their
persecution of many minority groups (including atheists, Jews, homosexuals
etc); Bahai are just one more example.
Swampfox
"Seon F" <se...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:4847a43c$0$30356$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
It's because the Bahai are low on the radar.
There are countless persecuted groups in the world,
some religious and others not..
The Tibetans have dropped from view since the Chinese
earthquake gave the evening news more emotional vision
to watch, and the average Joe Blow in the West only
has a 90 second attention span.
The Armenians are still without a homeland and the
Palestinian Muslims are losing theirs little by
little.
Meanwhile, here in Oz, our own indigenous population
continues to live in third world conditions and suffer
life expectancy rates among the lowest in the world.
Does Joe Blow give a stuff - no.
David Moss
>
> "David Moss" <q032...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:Xns9AB55A4062BCAq0...@61.9.191.5...
>> "Peter Webb" <webbf...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
>> news:484810e7$0$1024$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>>
>>>
>>> There is a Bahai temple up the road from where I live. My daughter
>>> did it for religious ed in primary school, and for a while claimed
>>> that was her religion.
>>
>> Hmm, could this explain your rabid anti-Iranian stance on Usenet?
>>
>
> No. I didn't even know there were any Bahais in Iran until yesterday.
> Personally, I am an atheist; my dislike of Iran is based upon their
> persecution of many minority groups (including atheists, Jews,
> homosexuals etc); Bahai are just one more example.
How do you feel about Rev Nile and the Christian Democrats here in Oz?
Swampfox
> "Peter Webb" <webbf...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au>
> wrote in
> news:484873f9$0$30465$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>
>>
>> "David Moss" <q032...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au>
>> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9AB55A4062BCAq0...@61.9.191.5...
>>> "Peter Webb"
>>> <webbf...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
>>> news:484810e7$0$1024$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a Bahai temple up the road from where I
>>>> live. My daughter
>>>> did it for religious ed in primary school, and
>>>> for a while claimed
>>>> that was her religion.
>>>
>>> Hmm, could this explain your rabid anti-Iranian
>>> stance on Usenet?
>>>
>>
>> No. I didn't even know there were any Bahais in
>> Iran until yesterday.
>> Personally, I am an atheist; my dislike of Iran is
>> based upon their
>> persecution of many minority groups (including
>> atheists, Jews,
>> homosexuals etc); Bahai are just one more example.
So what is your attitude to the Zionists, and the
fundie Christians who prop them up?
Peter Webb
> "Peter Webb" <webbf...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
> news:484873f9$0$30465$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>
>>
>> "David Moss" <q032...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in message
>> news:Xns9AB55A4062BCAq0...@61.9.191.5...
>>> "Peter Webb" <webbf...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
>>> news:484810e7$0$1024$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> There is a Bahai temple up the road from where I live. My daughter
>>>> did it for religious ed in primary school, and for a while claimed
>>>> that was her religion.
>>>
>>> Hmm, could this explain your rabid anti-Iranian stance on Usenet?
>>>
>>
>> No. I didn't even know there were any Bahais in Iran until yesterday.
>> Personally, I am an atheist; my dislike of Iran is based upon their
>> persecution of many minority groups (including atheists, Jews,
>> homosexuals etc); Bahai are just one more example.
>
> How do you feel about Rev Nile and the Christian Democrats here in Oz?
>
Loathe them.
But of course, they aren't in the same league as the clerics who run Iran.
Peter Webb
"Swampfox" <noidea@whocaresanyway> wrote in message
news:48487878$0$30463$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> "David Moss" <q032...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:Xns9AB5604FCC18Fq0...@61.9.191.5...
>> "Peter Webb" <webbf...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
>> news:484873f9$0$30465$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>>
>>>
>>> "David Moss" <q032...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in message
>>> news:Xns9AB55A4062BCAq0...@61.9.191.5...
>>>> "Peter Webb" <webbf...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au> wrote in
>>>> news:484810e7$0$1024$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> There is a Bahai temple up the road from where I live. My daughter
>>>>> did it for religious ed in primary school, and for a while claimed
>>>>> that was her religion.
>>>>
>>>> Hmm, could this explain your rabid anti-Iranian stance on Usenet?
>>>>
>>>
>>> No. I didn't even know there were any Bahais in Iran until yesterday.
>>> Personally, I am an atheist; my dislike of Iran is based upon their
>>> persecution of many minority groups (including atheists, Jews,
>>> homosexuals etc); Bahai are just one more example.
>
> So what is your attitude to the Zionists, and the fundie Christians who
> prop them up?
What do you mean by "Zionist" exactly?
If its people who believe that Jews should have a homeland in the Middle
East called Israel, I support them, and in fact I am a Zionist myself.
If that isn't your definition of Zionist, then I would need to see your
definition before responding.
Swampfox
"Peter Webb" <webbf...@DIESPAMDIEoptusnet.com.au>
wrote in message
news:48489390$0$1025$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
That's my definition.
Why do you support the creation of a Jewish state in
the Middle East?
Seon Ferguson
"ŻDougŚÇ" <noün...@now.com> wrote in message
news:GeX1k.3907$89....@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
the complex and surrendered anytime. instead the fools believed the cult
leader and stayed behind, even forcing some innocent children to stay.
Some bahai's cant afford to leave Iran. The one's who I meet and brought
this issue to me are the lucky one's. For the Bahai's the reason they stay
isnt because there in a cult.
Seon Ferguson
Seon Ferguson
>
>>We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
>>Israel
>
> There are lots of Israelis in the world.
>
>>or death to America
>
> There are lots of Americans in the world.
>
>>but no one (apart from people like Phillip
>>Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
>>islamofacist society.
>
> Because there are fuck all Bahais in the world. 99% of the world's
> population
> have probably never heard of a Bahai. Apart from the few posts I've seen
> from
> you where Bahai is mentioned the only other time I've ever heard it was on
> a
> television show (MDA - ABC).
>
as you said not a lot of people even know the bahai faith exists.
>>There's so many stories in this website
>>http://www.bahai.org/persecution/iran posting them all would take all
>>night.
>>We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the
>>most
>>least harmful Religion's in the world.
>
> "one of the most least harmful..."????
>
> Bwahahahahahaha!
>
Thats almost as bad as me saying its a wonderful life is part of the
propaganda. Classic Seonisim.
Seon Ferguson
didnt make some Bahai friends.
Seon Ferguson
"Swampfox" <noidea@whocaresanyway> wrote in message
has heard of. I think those make sense.
Peter Webb
"Swampfox" <noidea@whocaresanyway> wrote in message
That's a whole, different topic.
Swampfox
Not really.
If you support Israel on the grounds of the
persecution of the Jews then it's directly related to
the subject of this thread.
If it's for a different reason I'd be interested to
know what it is.
Peter Webb
>>>>>>> No. I didn't even know there were any Bahais in
>>>>>>> Iran until yesterday.
>>>>>>> Personally, I am an atheist; my dislike of Iran is based upon their
>>>>>>> persecution of many minority groups (including atheists, Jews,
>>>>>>> homosexuals etc); Bahai are just one more example.
>>>>>
>>>>> So what is your attitude to the Zionists, and the fundie Christians
>>>>> who prop them up?
>>>>
>>>> What do you mean by "Zionist" exactly?
>>>>
>>>> If its people who believe that Jews should have a homeland in the
>>>> Middle East called Israel, I support them, and in fact I am a Zionist
>>>> myself.
>>>>
>>>> If that isn't your definition of Zionist, then I would need to see your
>>>> definition before responding.
>>>
>>> That's my definition.
>>> Why do you support the creation of a Jewish state in the Middle East?
>>>
>>
>> That's a whole, different topic.
>
> Not really.
> If you support Israel on the grounds of the persecution of the Jews then
> it's directly related to the subject of this thread.
> If it's for a different reason I'd be interested to know what it is.
>
I'll bite.
I know that cranks like to change the topic; I know that cranks love to
pretend that Israel is the cause of every problem in the Middle East; its
just that I can't see anything relevant at all into this sudden lurch into
discussing Israel.
What is the connection between persecution of Bahais in Iran, and the
existence of Israel, exactly?
Swampfox
Then I'm obviously not a crank, because I don't for a
moment think that Israel is the cause of every problem
in the Middle East.
The topic hasn't changed at all Peter, you just seem
to be struggling to answer a fairly straightforward
question.
David mentioned the Branch Davidians in the context of
persecuted minorities, I mentioned the Palestinian
Muslims.
You would surely agree that both of these groups,
among others to be sure, have or are being persecuted
at the hands of a more powerful force.
I simply asked what was the difference between the
Iranian authority's persecution of the Bahai and the
persecution of Palestinian Muslims by Israel, both
clearly on religious grounds.
You haven't been able to answer that, and you don't
seem to be able to provide a rational answer as to why
you support the Zionists in their continuing
persecution and disposession of the Palestinian Muslim
minority.
Why is it that you support one instance of oppression
and persecution but not another?
>
> What is the connection between persecution of Bahais
> in Iran, and the existence of Israel, exactly?
The very existence of Israel has led to the
persecution and disposession of a large number of
people on purely religious grounds.
I would have thought that the connection is obvious.
Why do you support the persecution and disposession of
one religious minoroty but not another?
Peter Webb
"Swampfox" <noidea@whocaresanyway> wrote in message
You want to know the differences between the treatment by Israel of Israeli
citizens who happen to be Muslims and the treatment by Iran of Iranian
citzens that happen to be Bahai?
That's easy. Here is a start:
1. Israel has no laws that apply differently to citizens depending on their
faith. Iran does, and these are bound into the Constitution.
2. Muslims get to vote in Israel for the leadership of Israel; Bahai
Iranians get no such treatment.
3. Israel does not limit the movement of Israeli Muslims; Iran limits the
movement of Bahai followers.
4. Israel does not restrict the right to free speech for its Muslim
minority; Iran does for its Bahai minority.
5. Israel does tot control or limit in any way the faith held by its
citizens, or constrain the religious education of its Muslim followers. Iran
does.
6. Israel places no restrictions on people of other faiths (including
Muslims) from standing for public office; Iran controls who can hold public
office on the basis of religion, and this excludes Bahai people from
important positions.
7. Bahai in Iran are subject to arbitrary arrest; Israeli Muslims are
protect by the rule-of-law.
There are lots more, I am sure. I just got the condition of Bahai Iranians
by looking at the first few stories in the web page that was provided;
assuming it is accurate, there are obviously huge differences between the
treatment by Iran of Bahai Iranians and the treatment by Israel of Israeli
Muslims.
> You haven't been able to answer that, and you don't seem to be able to
> provide a rational answer as to why you support the Zionists in their
> continuing persecution and disposession of the Palestinian Muslim
> minority.
> Why is it that you support one instance of oppression and persecution but
> not another?
>
>>
>> What is the connection between persecution of Bahais in Iran, and the
>> existence of Israel, exactly?
>
> The very existence of Israel has led to the persecution and disposession
> of a large number of people on purely religious grounds.
Tell me about the persecution of Israeli Muslims. I wasn't aware that there
was any. Perhaps you can provide some links.
> I would have thought that the connection is obvious.
Ummm ... no. Israel has nothing to do with Iran. Its a different country,
and in a very different position.
> Why do you support the persecution and disposession of one religious
> minoroty but not another?
I don't believe that Israel is persecuting its Muslim minority. If you have
some reputable links that demonstrate this, and its comparable to Iran's
persecution of its Bahia minority, I would be very interested in reading
them and continuing this discussion.
Swampfox
According to a recent article publised online by
Yediot Aharonot. a Hebrew lanhuage newspaper based in
Tel Aviv:
"Statistics in a report prepared by the Central Bank
of Israel on the status of Arab citizens of Israel in
2004 show that half of all Arab families in Israel are
poor," the article said. "Israeli Arabs, who represent
20 per cent of the Israeli population, suffer from low
economic development, have high unemployment rates,
and work in low-wage jobs. Statistics from Central
Bank of Israel show that 46.2 per cent of all Israeli
Arab families were poor in 2003."
The article adds, "the main problem faced by Israeli
Arabs when knocking on the doors of the job market is
a low educational level and the lack of appropriate
jobs, particularly in Arab villages, in addition to
obstacles preventing employment in certain jobs in the
Jewish sector. The percentage of Israeli Arabs
participating in the labour market is less than
Israeli Jews, although Arab youth enter the job market
usually at a younger age, largely because their
families require additional sources of income. In
addition, they do not serve in the Israeli army.
Since the majority of Arabs in the job market work in
menial labour, they leave the job market earlier. Thus
we find a tangible gap between the percentage of Jews
and Arabs in the job market, even among older workers.
Unemployment among Arab men is higher than the rate
among Jewish men because of the difficulties Arabs
face finding jobs. Over the last decade the gap has
grown. It reached its peak in 2002, but it has
declined over the last two years with a jump of eight
per cent in the number of employed. This is due to the
sharp rise in the number of those who have withdrawn
from the labour market. The Bank of Israel report
shows that unemployment in recent years has touched
the Arab sector more than others.
As far as wages among the Arab population are
concerned, the report states that the rise in the
average wage among Arabs was slow over the last decade
when compared to the Jewish population. The report
finds that the increase in wages among uneducated
workers was similar in the Jewish and Arab sectors,
but among educated workers, the increase in wages
among Arabs was much slower than the increases among
Jews given the difficulties Arabs face in finding a
job that suits their qualifications."
Or:
Decenber 2006
"Racism continues to threaten the livelihoods of many
Arab citizens. This week an Arab merchant was forced
to close his electronics store in Safed just one week
after it opened. Khalil Asadi rented the space about
two weeks ago from his Jewish friend in Safed and paid
the lease on it for the next year. Asadi opened a
store selling electronic appliances, but in less than
a week he was forced to close down and empty out the
store after facing a wave of threats of a nationalist
nature.
Asadi says that in the first three days lots of
customers flocked to the store and bought a lot of
appliances. But after three days the flow of customers
suddenly stopped. He began receiving anonymous phone
calls threatening to set his store on fire if he did
not leave it.
Unidentified vandals graffitied insults on the store's
display cases. Asadi said that following the racist
threats he received, he was forced to close the store.
Following the incident, MK Mohammad Barakeh sent an
urgent letter to the Minister of Domestic Security
demanding that investigation into the racist threats
against merchants and employers in Safed. In his
letter, Barakeh pointed out that this is not a unique
incident and that it is not the first time that Arab
businessmen have been threatened against the
background of nationalist bigotry and suffered racial
abuse in Safed. Just recently a group of nationalist
extremists in Safed burned down a pharmacy owned by an
Arab.
Barakeh added that the police cannot fail catch the
perpetrators and bring them to trial, especially in
light of the increase in racist statements against
Arab citizens."
Or:
http://www.countercurrents.org/pa-cook060304.htm
Or:
"The organized labour movement in Palestine has, since
its inception in the 1920's, faced attacks from the
Zionist movement, in particular the Histadrut. The
Histadrut championed the idea of the "conquest of
labour", aiming to replace Arab workers with Jewish
ones. Histadrut activists campaigned against the
Jewish businessmen employing Arab workers, at times
engaging in violence. The early Histradrut union
structures reflected the discriminatory nature of
Zionism, trying both to elevate Jewish workers above
Arab ones while at the same time organizing Arab
labour in separate unions linked to and under
Histradrut control. Furthermore, the union actively
undermined Arab strikes, supplying Jewish strike
breakers. Following the Nakba, the indigenous
Palestinian movement collapsed, leaving the Histradrut
in full control. In 1965, the General Union of
Palestinian Workers (GUPW) was founded to organize
Palestinian labour in the West Bank and Gaza and in
the diaspora. In 1986, the Palestinian General
Federation of Trade Unions (PGFTU) was formed out of
the labour movement in the West Bank and Gaza.
Labour in the West Bank in Gaza is greatly suffering
on account of the Occupation. In Gaza, unemployment
and poverty have skyrocketed. In the most recent
siege, Israeli jets bombed the PGFTU building. In the
West Bank, both employers and workers have been hurt
by the destruction of infrastructure, land theft and
movement restrictions. Palestinian agricultural
workers in both Gaza and the West Bank have been
especially hard hit. Those in the West Bank are forced
to compete, on a totally unequal level, with Israeli
agro-business in the Jordan Valley while those in Gaza
are unable to move their produce to do lack of fuel
and Israeli closure polices. The Occupation aims to
further conquer Palestinian labour through a series of
joint industrial zones wherein Palestinians will
essentially work as migrant workers on their own land
for low wages in poor conditions without the option to
organize.
Palestinian workers living inside the Green Line face
apartheid labour conditions. The Histradrut is the
only trade union in Israel and continues to work on a
racist framework. It was not until 1965 that
Palestinians could vote in union elections, and until
today no Palestinian citizen of Israel has been a part
of the high governing body of the union. Around half
of legally employed Palestinians in Israel work in
low-wage sectors. Palestinians are barred through a
number of mechanisms from holding high-level jobs in
Israel. More that half of Palestinian citizens of
Israel are below the poverty line, as opposed to
around 16% of Jewish Israelis. Palestinian women are
grossly under represented in the Histadrut, with
little being done to improve their situation. Rather
than taking up these problems, the Histadrut chooses
to ignore them. Barred from building their trade
union, Palestinians are mobilizing in workers
organizations such as Sawt al Amel (Labourers Voice)
to struggle for their rights."
Need I go on?
Laws are one thing, practice is another.
Did Nazi Germany ever enact a law legalising the
extermination of Jews?
Fran
> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
> Israel or death to America
Cite?
Paraphrasing Khomeini, Ahmedinejad spoke of Israel being 'wiped from
the pages of history'. He later compared this with the demise of the
USSR and of apartheid South Africa. That's not the same as a threat to
'obliterate' the country (cf Hillary Clinton on Iran) or 'bomb them
back to the stone age' (Richard Armitage on Pakistan)
> but no one (apart from people like Phillip
> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
> islamofacist society.
> There's so many stories in this websitehttp://www.bahai.org/persecution/iranposting them all would take all night.
> We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the most
> least harmful Religion's in the world.
Persecution of Ba'hai is wrong, obviously. It is the case though that
if a wrong is met with a camera and that makes can be fed into
people's living rooms then the wrong gets elevated in status.
There are many wrongs going on in the world but very few of them
happen on cue in front of cameras.
Fran
Peter Webb
"Swampfox" <noidea@whocaresanyway> wrote in message
Sounds remarkably similar to the problems that aborigines face in Australia.
Would you therefore also claim that the Australian government was
persecuting aborigines?
And sounds nothing at all like the persecution of Bahais in Iran. No mention
of discriminatory laws, no mention of restrictions on freedom to worship, no
mention of denial of access to overseas news sources, no mention of
restrictions on travel, no mention of restrictions on the seeking or holding
of public office, no mention of restrictions on employment types, no mention
of the lack of right to peaceful assembly.
So, the status of Muslims in Israel is clearly nothing like the status of
Bahia in Iran.
And so there is no connection between Israel and Iran's treatment of Bahia,
even by analogy.
Therefore you are just some crank who sees Israel as the cause of all
problems in the Middle East. Its not.
If you were not a crank, a much better analogy would have been the treatment
of Falun Gong in China. This has clear parallels with the treatment of Bahia
in Iran. Of course, it doesn't let you change the topic to those filthy
Jews, so I guess it doesn't suit your purposes.
So I guess that at least answers my question. There is no connection.
Swampfox
Are you seriously suggesting that there are no
restrictions on travel by Muslims in the West Bank or
Gaza, and that there isn't a massive under
representation of Arab Israelis in the Knesset?
Please tell me you're not, but in case you are I'll
enlighten you.
Arab Israelis comprise about 20% of Israel's
population and hold 8 of the 120 seats in the
parliament.
I see persecution, disposession and oppression as
indefensible no matter who practices it and where it's
practiced, and I won't defend it under any
circumstances.
You seem to be more flexible than I, which is your
right.
And by the way, I don't like the term "filthy Jews",
and although you seem comfortable using such terms I
find them distasteful.
Seon Ferguson
"Fran" <Fran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0ba297c0-4895-470c...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 5, 6:29 pm, "Seon F" <s...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
> Israel or death to America
Cite?
Paraphrasing Khomeini, Ahmedinejad spoke of Israel being 'wiped from
the pages of history'. He later compared this with the demise of the
>USSR and of apartheid South Africa. That's not the same as a threat to
>'obliterate' the country (cf Hillary Clinton on Iran) or 'bomb them
>back to the stone age' (Richard Armitage on Pakistan)
Same with Hillary's comment. She said she would bomb them back to the stone
age IF Iran attacked Israel not if she gets elected.
You still cant deny Iran and other countries rulled by Islamic extremists
hate the west.
> but no one (apart from people like Phillip
> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
> islamofacist society.
> There's so many stories in this
> websitehttp://www.bahai.org/persecution/iranposting them all would take
> all night.
> We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the
> most
> least harmful Religion's in the world.
Persecution of Ba'hai is wrong, obviously. It is the case though that
if a wrong is met with a camera and that makes can be fed into
people's living rooms then the wrong gets elevated in status.
>There are many wrongs going on in the world but very few of them
>happen on cue in front of cameras.
Plus most people cant relate to bahai's like they can to Christians or Jews
who get persecuted.
Peter Webb
Who are not Israeli citizens, and for whom there is no analogy in Iran,
which is what we were discussing ...
> and that there isn't a massive under representation of Arab Israelis in
> the Knesset?
There is a massive under-representation of women as Mayors in Australia.
> Please tell me you're not, but in case you are I'll enlighten you.
> Arab Israelis comprise about 20% of Israel's population and hold 8 of the
> 120 seats in the parliament.
And I will enlighten you. Female Australians comprise 51% of the population,
but only 17% of local governments have female Mayors.
Sounds like the Israelis persecute Muslims to somewhat less than the extent
to which Australians persecute women, if that is your bullshit argument.
Perhaps you can tell me how many Bahais are in the Iranian Parliament?
(None. They are not allowed to stand for election to Parliament)..
> I see persecution, disposession and oppression as indefensible no matter
> who practices it and where it's practiced, and I won't defend it under any
> circumstances.
Yeah, but you only wander off and introduce Israel into the discussion even
when the topic has nothing to do with Israel. Why didn't you pick Falun Gong
in as a case? No jews?
> You seem to be more flexible than I, which is your right.
Hardly. Your flexibility is amazing - you can turn any discussion about the
Middle East into a discussion about Israel. I'm a whole lot less flexible -
I stay on topic.
Swampfox
Indeed, the Bahai are persecuted in Iran.
Have I defended the Iranian authorities, here or
anywhere else?
>
>
>> I see persecution, disposession and oppression as
>> indefensible no matter who practices it and where
>> it's practiced, and I won't defend it under any
>> circumstances.
>
> Yeah, but you only wander off and introduce Israel
> into the discussion even when the topic has nothing
> to do with Israel. Why didn't you pick Falun Gong in
> as a case? No jews?
You seem to believe that I dislike Jews for some
reason.
I can't imagine why, but you can be a bit hard to
fathom.
What do you base your assumption on?
>
>
>> You seem to be more flexible than I, which is your
>> right.
>
> Hardly. Your flexibility is amazing - you can turn
> any discussion about the Middle East into a
> discussion about Israel. I'm a whole lot less
> flexible - I stay on topic.
Except when we are talking about the massive
parliamentary under representation and blatant
economic discrimination against a religious group in a
supposed democracy and you somehow equate that to
gender imbalance in Australian politics or make
oblique inferences that my arguments are based on anti
semitism.
Your ethical gymnastics are astounding.
fasgnadh
> Seon F wrote:
>> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death
>> this islamofacist society.
If only Adams could pronounce it. not Bar-high but B'hi
What this thread demonstrates clearly is
1. Fasgnadh's law of thread degeneration
2. That few aus.pol residents, and none of the racists and bigots,
have been as consistent as I have in CONDEMNING the oppression
of minorities, irrespective of their gender, ethnicity, religion,
age, or skin colour, and
3. That most of the participants in aus.politics do little more than
hurl abuse at one another and, in Webb's case, protect their
sacred cows.
Where are the protestof others regarding the fate of the Bahai, ever?
Where are the condemnations of the Taliban, like mine, long before
S/11 made it fashionable?
When the bigots who are unable to argue with my logic, simply
resort to abuse and lies, accusing ME of bigotry but never able
to cite any evidence of it.. I will refer them to this post,
with the challenge..
"Here is my record of standing up.. where is YOURS!????
Most of the small minded bigots in this NG don't have a bloody
clue what is going on till years later, when some political tool
tells them what to think and how upset to be about it! B^p
> Some of us have.
>
> Just as I have defended Islam against anti-Muslim bigots.
> I have defended women persecuted by the Taliban and the Bahá'í
> who are persecuted in Iran. This is why I am attacked by extremists
> from all sides. In this case I was reminding Kangarooistan, that Muslims
> are not only persecuted, but persecutors:
>
>
> # Date: Sun, 13 May 2007 12:43:14 +1000
> # From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
> # Message-ID: <46467b36$0$28584$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
> #
> # people of good faith in all religions share these values,
> # and that such affection and respect, the foundation of a
> # civilized society, belongs to other peoples mothers as well
> # as our own, never to be beaten with sticks by the Taliban,
> # or tortured by the Iranian Mullahs because they are Bahai.
>
>
> # From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
> # Date: Sun, 03 Jun 2007 23:26:29 +1000
> # Message-ID: <4662c17b$0$26030$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
> #
> # When Dawkins has flayed away the detritus encrusting these dogmatic
> # religious structures we will be left with the heart of faith; five
> # little old Methodist ladies selling cakes to raise money for charity..
> # or the Muslim family, which had abused their Bahai neighbours until
> # one day the expectant wife needed to be driven to hospital, and the
> # Bahai's had a car. After that they were friends and when the Islamic
> # Revolutionary Guard was rampaging through the neighbourhood
> # looking for Bahai's the Muslim father and his son stood,
> # blocking the Gate and said "No Bahai's here.. "
> #
> # That is the true Religion, you find it in all faiths
>
>
> But my favourite Bahai story is about a little old Persian
> grandmother, a dear friend of mine, who was tortured in Iran,
> and taught me that to blame all Muslims, or the Koran, for her
> suffering would be a childish mistake:
>
> # Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:44:39 +1100
> # From: fasgnadh <fasgn...@yahoo.com>
> # aus.politics,aus.religion.islam,aus.religion,aus.culture.true-blue
> # Subject: Re: A positive Christmas Message from Islam
> # Message-ID: <476f4745$0$4007$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>
> #
> # I have posts in the Usenet archives about the torture of
> # my friend in the dungeons of Teheran which would make your hair
> # stand on end! They told her all she had to do was renounce
> # her faith and declare herself a Muslim, and she could go free.
> #
> # 11 of her companions in jail were executed.
> #
> # Do you blathering Idiots think you have anything to tell me,
> # or her, about the Iranian mullahs? Her people have been
> # persecuted in Iran since it was Persia! They are banned from
> # government employment, their children cannot enter university
> # they are tortured and killed.
> #
> # And, here is the difference between that woman, a woman of true
> # faith, and you rabid dogs... she invites Muslim Uni students
> # who live in her block of flats, in for dinner.
> #
> # She hobbles about on feet still broken from the bastinado
> # and serves them tea and Persian sweets.
> #
> # She wins them over with her genuine warmth and affection. B^D
> #
> # She follows this bloke's father, who was also beaten and
> # tortured, and finally exiled from Persia.. The son is called
> # Abdul Baha and though his father and his entire family were
> # mistreated by the Imams, this photo shows him being Knighted
> # by the British for his service ...to the Palestinians!
> #
> # http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AbdolBaha%27s_knighting_ceremony.jpg
> #
> # Standing behind him you can see representatives of the
> # Ottoman Sultan, who had, at the request of the Persians,
> # cast the entire family into a prison in Akka, a city so
> # pestilential it was said that birds flying overhead would fall
> # from the sky, dead.
> #
> # How can a man win over such determined and vicious enemies, gain not
> # merely the release of his family but the affection of so many that
> # when he died Christians, Muslims and Jews thronged to his funeral
> # and wept?
> #
> # Such are the true believers, be they Christian, Muslim or Jew.
> #
> # "Peace be with you" as my Catholic friends say in church,
> # turning to those around them, be they prostitute, Tax collector
> # or the returned Messiah, you can't tell by looking and certainly
> # not from labels.. like Christian, Muslim or Jew.
>
>
>
>
>> There's so many stories in this website
>> http://www.bahai.org/persecution/iran posting them all would take all
>> night.
>> We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the
>> most least harmful Religion's in the world.
>
>
> One of the reasons you hear little about the persecution is
> that the Bahá'í themselves do not engage in political protest.
>
> You won't find them carrying placards, disrupting traffic or
> snatching someones Olympic torch to make their point.
>
>
> http://www.905bahais.com/youth_mona.htm
>
---------
"Iraq War and the price of petrol" - ABC 23/5/2008
"Prime Minister Kevin Rudd said that not invading
Iraq would have helped keep petrol prices down
-- 'It's a factor in the global supply of oil.'"
Of course it is, Iraq has the second largest reserves of oil
in the world. Even if demand were not rising, which it is,
ANY disruption to supply will cause prices to go up.
As we have all seen at the petrol pump.
"There is no question that disruption in any important
country in the oil universe is going to have some
effect on prices, there is absolutely no doubt about that."
- Vijay Vaitheeswaran, Energy correspondent for
the Economist Magazine and author of
"Zoom: The Global Race to Fuel the Car of the Future"
"Iraq oil output hits a new high
- BBC 26/6/2006,
"Production has risen to 2.5 million barrels per day (bpd)
from a steady 2 million bpd during the US-led invasion,
Iraq's new oil minister said.
"Before the war, output was around 3 million bpd,
peaking at a record of 3.5 million bpd"
So, for four years following Howard and Bush's invasion
based on falsehoods about WMDs, Iraqi oil production was
reduced to FIFTY SEVEN PERCENT of it's pre-invasion peak! 8^o
And now it has only inched upward to 71% of it's pre-invasion peak
"Iraq is a mid-level producer, it's not Saudi Arabia,
for example, which is a king pin of oil, or Russia, those
countries produce 9-10 million barrels of oil a day,
the Iraqi output is maybe 20-30% of that, it's more on par
with a country like Venezuela, but undoubtedly a disruption
of the kind which comes from an invasion would of course,
send prices higher"
You can thank Howard and the Lieberals for those higher petrol
prices every time you fill up, and then don't forget the GST
they put ON TOP of the excise, ON TOP of the Iraq War Petrol
Price Surcharge!!!!!
The Great GST Tax SWINDLE
http://www.geocities.com/wmds_r_us/tory_tax_swindle.htm
All courtesy of the most DISASTROUS economic mis-managers
in post war Australian government.. the Lieberal party.
ABC: "So can our Prime Minister get away with saying that
if we didn't go into Iraq, petrol prices would be cheaper?"
"I think that without this kind of Iraq invasion, this
outcome would not have happened."
"In this case, it's not just Iraq, if there were to be hostile
actions by the US against Iran, something President Cheney has
hinted at, you can bet the prices would go even higher.
It's a question of the global supply balance, that's the reason
why an action like this became so problematic"
---------
The Official [Est. June 2000] aus.culture.true-blue FAQ ;
http://geocities.com/fairdinkum_trueblue/faq.html
The true-blue Homestead;
http://geocities.com/fairdinkum_trueblue/
The true-blue Hall Of Fame;
http://www.geocities.com/trueblue_hall_of_fame/index.html
The Tuckerbox;
http://www.geocities.com/true_blue_tucker_box/index.html
-----------
Peter Webb
"Swampfox" <noidea@whocaresanyway> wrote in message
Yes. You compared their persecution of Bahai to the persecution of Muslims
in Israel. Clearly Iran's persecution of their Bahai minority is many orders
of magnitude worse than the persecution of Muslims in Israel; you were
essentially saying the Iranian crimes are not really that bad.
You didn't really want to talk about the treatment of Bahai in Iran,
anyway - you really just skipped over the topic and moved straight to the
evils of Israel.
>
>>
>>
>>> I see persecution, disposession and oppression as indefensible no matter
>>> who practices it and where it's practiced, and I won't defend it under
>>> any circumstances.
>>
>> Yeah, but you only wander off and introduce Israel into the discussion
>> even when the topic has nothing to do with Israel. Why didn't you pick
>> Falun Gong in as a case? No jews?
>
> You seem to believe that I dislike Jews for some reason.
> I can't imagine why, but you can be a bit hard to fathom.
> What do you base your assumption on?
>
For exactly the behaviour you have exhibitted in this thread - you attacked
Israel even though it has nothing to do with the topic being discussed. I
already explained that.
>>
>>
>>> You seem to be more flexible than I, which is your right.
>>
>> Hardly. Your flexibility is amazing - you can turn any discussion about
>> the Middle East into a discussion about Israel. I'm a whole lot less
>> flexible - I stay on topic.
>
> Except when we are talking about the massive parliamentary under
> representation and blatant economic discrimination against a religious
> group in a supposed democracy and you somehow equate that to gender
> imbalance in Australian politics or make oblique inferences that my
> arguments are based on anti semitism.
Hardly. I was just demonstrating how stupid your arguments are. Your
evidence of persecution against Muslims in Israel is completely bogus,
because the "evidence" you use is not evidence of any persecution. Their are
gender and racial and ethnic imbalances in all legislatures; if this was
evidence of persecution then you can similarly you can "prove" that
Australia persecutes women, just as wealth imbalance can prove that we in
Australia persecute Koreans or aboriginies or many other groups.
Clearly that ethnic imbalances occur in different professions (including
politics) is not evidence of persecution. Clearly the existence of wealth
imbalances amongst different groups is not evidence of persecution. These
are fundamental to every democracy and every free market economy in the
world. You have not shown any evidence of any kind of persecution of Muslims
in Israel.
Compare this to the list I gave of the persecution of Bahai (and many other
minorities, specifically including homosexuals and jews) in Iran. It is
bizarre that you would ever seek to use Israeli treatment of their Muslim
minority as in any way comparable; clearly they are not.
However, to the crank, everything that happens in the ME has to be tied back
to the evils of Israel, however tenuous (or in this case non-existent) the
connection.
> Your ethical gymnastics are astounding.
>
Nothing compared to saying that Israel is similar to Iran because they both
have under-represented minorities in Parliament, and both have wealth
imbalances. Very funny. You could use this argument to say Sweden is like
Iran, if you really hated Scandinavians.
Swampfox
Now there's a leap of logic.
Run that by me again and it may make some sense.
>
> You didn't really want to talk about the treatment
> of Bahai in Iran, anyway - you really just skipped
> over the topic and moved straight to the evils of
> Israel.
Of which there are many, but none that you wish to
acknowledge.
>
>
>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> I see persecution, disposession and oppression as
>>>> indefensible no matter who practices it and where
>>>> it's practiced, and I won't defend it under any
>>>> circumstances.
>>>
>>> Yeah, but you only wander off and introduce Israel
>>> into the discussion even when the topic has
>>> nothing to do with Israel. Why didn't you pick
>>> Falun Gong in as a case? No jews?
>>
>> You seem to believe that I dislike Jews for some
>> reason.
>> I can't imagine why, but you can be a bit hard to
>> fathom.
>> What do you base your assumption on?
>>
>
>
> For exactly the behaviour you have exhibitted in
> this thread - you attacked Israel even though it has
> nothing to do with the topic being discussed. I
> already explained that.
I do not agree with Zionism, I consider that the
entire premise is based on lies and myths.
I can explain my reasons if you like, but I doubt you
would be interested.
According to what form of twisted logic does this make
me an anti semite?
>
>
>
>>>
>>>
>>>> You seem to be more flexible than I, which is
>>>> your right.
>>>
>>> Hardly. Your flexibility is amazing - you can turn
>>> any discussion about the Middle East into a
>>> discussion about Israel. I'm a whole lot less
>>> flexible - I stay on topic.
>>
>> Except when we are talking about the massive
>> parliamentary under representation and blatant
>> economic discrimination against a religious group
>> in a supposed democracy and you somehow equate that
>> to gender imbalance in Australian politics or make
>> oblique inferences that my arguments are based on
>> anti semitism.
>
>
> Hardly. I was just demonstrating how stupid your
> arguments are. Your evidence of persecution against
> Muslims in Israel is completely bogus, because the
> "evidence" you use is not evidence of any
> persecution. Their are gender and racial and ethnic
> imbalances in all legislatures; if this was evidence
> of persecution then you can similarly you can
> "prove" that Australia persecutes women, just as
> wealth imbalance can prove that we in Australia
> persecute Koreans or aboriginies or many other
> groups.
Koreans or aboriginals don't comprise 20% of our
population, your reasoning is junk..
>
> Clearly that ethnic imbalances occur in different
> professions (including politics) is not evidence of
> persecution. Clearly the existence of wealth
> imbalances amongst different groups is not evidence
> of persecution. These are fundamental to every
> democracy and every free market economy in the
> world. You have not shown any evidence of any kind
> of persecution of Muslims in Israel.
None that you can comprehend at any rate.
>
> Compare this to the list I gave of the persecution
> of Bahai (and many other minorities, specifically
> including homosexuals and jews) in Iran. It is
> bizarre that you would ever seek to use Israeli
> treatment of their Muslim minority as in any way
> comparable; clearly they are not.
>
> However, to the crank, everything that happens in
> the ME has to be tied back to the evils of Israel,
> however tenuous (or in this case non-existent) the
> connection.
>
>
>> Your ethical gymnastics are astounding.
>>
>
> Nothing compared to saying that Israel is similar to
> Iran because they both have under-represented
> minorities in Parliament, and both have wealth
> imbalances. Very funny. You could use this argument
> to say Sweden is like Iran, if you really hated
> Scandinavians.
But I do.
They kill whales.
Peter Webb
>> attacked Israel even though it has nothing to do with the topic being
>> discussed. I already explained that.
>
> I do not agree with Zionism, I consider that the entire premise is based
> on lies and myths.
> I can explain my reasons if you like, but I doubt you would be interested.
> According to what form of twisted logic does this make me an anti semite?
>
One more time, just for the really slow.
Not agreeing with Zionism does not make you an anti-semite.
My reason for believing that you are an anti-semite is that you raise the
subject of Israel frequently, even it has nothing to do with the subject
being discussed. Its like someone who constantly raises the subject of how
bad aboriginies are, even when they are not part of the subject being
discussed. You may not notice it in yourself because it is such an ingrained
habit.
>>
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> You seem to be more flexible than I, which is your right.
>>>>
>>>> Hardly. Your flexibility is amazing - you can turn any discussion about
>>>> the Middle East into a discussion about Israel. I'm a whole lot less
>>>> flexible - I stay on topic.
>>>
>>> Except when we are talking about the massive parliamentary under
>>> representation and blatant economic discrimination against a religious
>>> group in a supposed democracy and you somehow equate that to gender
>>> imbalance in Australian politics or make oblique inferences that my
>>> arguments are based on anti semitism.
>>
>>
>> Hardly. I was just demonstrating how stupid your arguments are. Your
>> evidence of persecution against Muslims in Israel is completely bogus,
>> because the "evidence" you use is not evidence of any persecution. Their
>> are gender and racial and ethnic imbalances in all legislatures; if this
>> was evidence of persecution then you can similarly you can "prove" that
>> Australia persecutes women, just as wealth imbalance can prove that we in
>> Australia persecute Koreans or aboriginies or many other groups.
>
> Koreans or aboriginals don't comprise 20% of our population, your
> reasoning is junk..
Gee, and Bahai don't constitute 20% of the Iranian population, which is what
we are supposed to be discussing.
So soon you forget the pretext you used for criticising Israel.
>
>>
>> Clearly that ethnic imbalances occur in different professions (including
>> politics) is not evidence of persecution. Clearly the existence of wealth
>> imbalances amongst different groups is not evidence of persecution. These
>> are fundamental to every democracy and every free market economy in the
>> world. You have not shown any evidence of any kind of persecution of
>> Muslims in Israel.
>
> None that you can comprehend at any rate.
>
Lame-O.
>>
>> Compare this to the list I gave of the persecution of Bahai (and many
>> other minorities, specifically including homosexuals and jews) in Iran.
>> It is bizarre that you would ever seek to use Israeli treatment of their
>> Muslim minority as in any way comparable; clearly they are not.
>>
>> However, to the crank, everything that happens in the ME has to be tied
>> back to the evils of Israel, however tenuous (or in this case
>> non-existent) the connection.
>>
>>
>>> Your ethical gymnastics are astounding.
>>>
>>
>> Nothing compared to saying that Israel is similar to Iran because they
>> both have under-represented minorities in Parliament, and both have
>> wealth imbalances. Very funny. You could use this argument to say Sweden
>> is like Iran, if you really hated Scandinavians.
>
> But I do.
> They kill whales.
>
Funny, you don't mention Sweden as much as you mention Israel.
Swampfox
>>> For exactly the behaviour you have exhibitted in
>>> this thread - you attacked Israel even though it
>>> has nothing to do with the topic being discussed.
>>> I already explained that.
>>
>> I do not agree with Zionism, I consider that the
>> entire premise is based on lies and myths.
>> I can explain my reasons if you like, but I doubt
>> you would be interested.
>> According to what form of twisted logic does this
>> make me an anti semite?
>>
>
> One more time, just for the really slow.
>
> Not agreeing with Zionism does not make you an
> anti-semite.
>
> My reason for believing that you are an anti-semite
> is that you raise the subject of Israel frequently,
> even it has nothing to do with the subject being
> discussed. Its like someone who constantly raises
> the subject of how bad aboriginies are, even when
> they are not part of the subject being discussed.
> You may not notice it in yourself because it is such
> an ingrained habit.
I am firmly of the belief that the establishment of
Israel was a mistake that the world will pay for
indefinately, I believe this passionately which is
probably why I refer to it as often as I do.
I am not anti semitic, and the suggestion is insulting
and offensive.
You are a self righteous, pompous prat, and stupid to
boot.
If that makes me an anti Webbite then so be it.
<snip>
Peter Webb
"Swampfox" <noidea@whocaresanyway> wrote in message
No, you don't go on constantly about me in every thread. If you did, then
that certainly would make you an anti-Webbite.
ŻDougŚÇ
news:4848a4cb$0$30369$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
Excellent points Seon. I'm sorry I lumped you in w/Davey 'Ahmed' Moss.
ŻDougŚÇ
I hate to say it, but I have to:
Wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up first.
ŻDougŚÇ
news:4847a43c$0$30356$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
> Israel or death to America but no one (apart from people like Phillip
> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
> islamofacist society.
> There's so many stories in this website
> http://www.bahai.org/persecution/iran posting them all would take all
> night.
> We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the
> most least harmful Religion's in the world.
What about the persecution of Sikhs in Islamic countries? Or the
persecution/
forced deportation of Hindus from Pigistan?
Seon Ferguson
any Hindu or Sikh friends and the media certainly doesn't talk about it.
Seon Ferguson
but when it comes to Muslim or Communist countries for some reason
criticizing them is off limits.
Seon Ferguson
US President anytime soon.
Swampfox
I'm tired of you Peter.
I had previously thought that of all the conservatives
on here that at least you and Ralph put forward what
you considered to be valid arguments and seemed able
to avoid personal insults.
By your insulting and offensive behaviour in this
thread you have confirmed to me that you're no more
than another insubstantial redneck.
By the way, lightweight, are these folks anti semitic
as well?
http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com/
Peter Webb
"Swampfox" <noidea@whocaresanyway> wrote in message
Still the reference to Israel. Seems you can't discuss anything at all
without making some attack on Israel.
In answer to your question, I doubt that these people are anti-semitic.
Here, to help, is what I said earlier:
"One more time, just for the really slow.
Not agreeing with Zionism does not make you an anti-semite."
So in answer to your question about whether the operators of this web site
are anti-semitic, the only answer I can really give you is:
One more time, just for the really slow.
Not agreeing with Zionism does not make you an anti-semite.
HTH
Swampfox
Blow it out of your arse dickhead.
ŻDougŚÇ
Some people have a strange desire to keep their heads attached to the
rest of their body. People are funny that way aren't they?
ŻDougŚÇ
delusion that Fuckahmedinejad DIDN'T mean he intends
to annihilate Israel? Aside from your own opinion?
"Fran" <Fran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0ba297c0-4895-470c...@c19g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
ŻDougŚÇ
The forced deportation of Hindus from Pigistan happened decades ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan
That particular article also points out the forced deportation of the
Sikhs (an EXTRA added bonus).
"When Pakistan gained independence in August 1947, over 7 million Hindus and
Sikhs from what was East Pakistan (now Bangladesh) and Pakistan's Punjab,
Sindh and North-West Frontier Province provinces were forced to leave this
new state for India, and a similar number of Muslims moved the other way.
The reasons for this incredible exodus was the heavily charged communal
atmosphere in British India, deep distrust of each other, the brutality of
violent mobs and the antagonism between the religious communities. The fact
that over 1 million people lost their lives in the bloody violence of 1947,
should attest to the fear and hate that filled the hearts of millions of
Muslims and Hindus who had to leave ancestral homes during hastily arranged
partition."
I seriously doubt any Hindus have remained in Pigistan, would you?
"Since Pakistan declared itself an Islamic nation and pursued a decidedly
Islamic course in its political and social life since the 1980s, Hindus as a
minority in Pakistan have had considerably fewer privileges, rights and
protections in comparison to minorities in India, which constitutionally
avows itself secular and giving of equal rights to its religious minorities
including the Muslim, Christian and Sikh communities. Cultural
marginalization, discrimination, economic hardships and religious
persecution have resulted in many Hindus converting to other religions
(Islam, Christianity), and today Hindus constitute barely 2% of Pakistan's
population[citation needed]."
Persecution of Hindus by muslim pigs has a long, vicious history:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#Pakistan
Here's the result list of my google search:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&as_q=&as_epq=hindus&as_oq=pakistan&as_eq=&num=10&lr=lang_en&as_filetype=&ft=i&as_sitesearch=&as_qdr=all&as_rights=&as_occt=any&cr=&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images
Have fun!
Seon Ferguson
Seon Ferguson
Jews even paid them for there houses. What a nerve! Thats what happens when
a country declares its self a Islamic state. I never want that to happen to
Australia. If we ever get a Muslim PM I'll know were fucked.
ŻDougŚÇ
news:4849d3bf$0$30362$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
It's interesting but I posted a response to this and it never showed up.
Here it is again:
American Patriot (Kcajyer).
> "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4849d3bf$0$30362$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >news:m7g2k.5095$jI5....@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
> >> "Seon F" <s...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> >>news:4847a43c$0$30356$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> >>> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
> >>> Israel or death to America but no one (apart from people like Phillip
> >>> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
> >>> islamofacist society.
> >>> There's so many stories in this website
>
> Have fun!- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
All religions including those with no religon should start praying
the Islam Jihadists go away.
free....@gmail.com
wrote:
> On Jun 10, 11:59 am, "¯Doug¦Ç" <noün...@now.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> >news:4849d3bf$0$30362$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> > > "¯Doug¦Ç" <noün...@now.com> wrote in message
> > >news:m7g2k.5095$jI5....@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
> > >> "Seon F" <s...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> > >>news:4847a43c$0$30356$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> > >>> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
> > >>> Israel or death to America but no one (apart from people like Phillip
> > >>> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
> > >>> islamofacist society.
> > >>> There's so many stories in this website
Correction: THE BAHAI are NOT HINDU. It is considered a Universal
Religion, a mixture of ALL the world religions. They get shit from
every direction...They are neither fish nor fowl for either Hindu or
Muslims.
http://www.bahai.org/
But explain to us why Northern Ireland has Protestants and Catholics
killing one another. Explain to us why the Church of England blessed
the murder of Native Americans, because "they did not have souls".
Explain kidnapping, chaining and flogging slaves because Christian
scriptures OKed it. Explain why the Zionists, secular Jews,who even
call themselves athiests persecute Orthodox Jews and treat them like
shit?
ŻDougŚÇ
up religion of genocidal hatred and intolerance. Since
he can't defend Islam he here employs argument by
red herring (the Chewbacca defense in South Park).
Of course he doesn't bother to provide any proof for
any of his BS allegations either.
<free....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:105e9a7c-6802-4421...@2g2000hsn.googlegroups.com...
Seon F
> "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4849d3bf$0$30362$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>>
>> "ŻDougŚÇ" <noün...@now.com> wrote in message
>> news:m7g2k.5095$jI5....@flpi148.ffdc.sbc.com...
>>> "Seon F" <se...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
>>> news:4847a43c$0$30356$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>>>> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
>>>> Israel or death to America but no one (apart from people like Phillip
>>>> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of the bahai's in this
>>>> islamofacist society.
>>>> There's so many stories in this website
>>>> http://www.bahai.org/persecution/iran posting them all would take all
>>>> night.
>>>> We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the
>>>> most least harmful Religion's in the world.
>>>
>>> What about the persecution of Sikhs in Islamic countries? Or the
>>> persecution/
>>> forced deportation of Hindus from Pigistan?
>>>
>> Is that still going on? do you have any links I can check out? I don't
>> have any Hindu or Sikh friends and the media certainly doesn't talk about
>> it.
>>
>
> It's interesting but I posted a response to this and it never showed up.
> Here it is again:
>
and they do. And the Arabs have a nerve to whine about how Palestinians are
treated.
Seon F
"American Patriot (Kcajyer)." <kcaj...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:780b0d4f-4bbe-466d...@p25g2000pri.googlegroups.com...
On Jun 10, 11:59 am, "ŻDougŚÇ" <noün...@now.com> wrote:
> "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:4849d3bf$0$30362$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
Your damn right.
Government Shill #2
>Your damn right.
You're
You are damn right.
You're damn right.
Shill #2
--
I am not young enough to know everything.
Oscar Wilde (1854 - 1900)
ŻDougŚÇ
news:m2sv44550tje3h7gq...@4ax.com...
It's nice to know that the English will at least make
sure they're language is still spoken correctly when
they become dhimmi mamluks.
AHWA
> Israel or death to America but no one (apart from people like Phillip
> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of thebahai'sin this
> islamofacist society.
The Haifan Bahaofascist organization is as Fascist as the
Islamofascists, they are a cult and historically they also have the
blood of sectarian detractors on their hands like the Islamofascists
with theirs (I am happy to furnish you with further evidence if so
required):
www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship
Add to that the fact that questions linger over whether they are
exaggerating their plight under the the Iranian mullocracy plus that
they regularly harass schismatic rivals and dissidents in the West,
and the picture begins to change radically. My advice to the remaining
Iranian Baha'is in Iran is that if they able simply leave because the
mullahs aren't going anywhere yet -- they have completely confuted all
opposition to their rule, with the Bush administration surreptitiously
helping them when invading Iraq and thereby pulling the rug from under
the feet of the secular opposition (ask yourself, where did the
reformists go?) -- and if the US-Israel start a war with Iran in 2009,
Iran wouldn't be a place worth living in in any case.
> There's so many stories in this websitehttp://www.bahai.org/persecution/iranposting them all would take all night.
Mostly exaggerated. Plus these people have deep pockets. Women, Kurds
and secular opponents to the mullahs are the most persecuted groups
presently in Iran. Yet the Haifan Bahais make the most noise about
being persecuted when they aren't.
> We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the most
> least harmful Religion's in the world.
Bahaism is not the least harmful religion in the world. If it ever
gained any kind of ascendancy it would quickly become the most harmful
cult in the world. These people are Stalinists all the way.
W
AHWA
> "David Moss" <q0320...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9AB4D13D62E5q0...@61.9.191.5...
>
> > "Seon F" <s...@iinet.net.au> wrote innews:4847a43c$0$30356$5a62ac22@per-
> > qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au:
>
> >> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
> >> Israel or death to America but no one (apart from people like Phillip
> >> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of thebahai'sin this
> >> islamofacist society.
>
> > Davidians and how the6y were persecuted in the USA
>
> > "A religious group known as the lived in their compound they called Mt.
> > Carmel just outside Waco, Texas. On April 19, 1993 agents of the United
> > States government attacked their compound and murdered helpless women and
> > children with battle tanks, flame-throwers, and poison gas. Nearly 100
> > innocent people lost their lives as a result."
>
> > Reason?
> > Because almost nobody in our society is either a Branch Davidian or a
> >Bahai.
>
> > People "like us" get much more sympathy, and press, when they are
> > persecuted than people who are not like us.
>
> > People "not like us" get much more negative press when they persecute
> > others than people who are "like us".
>
> > Why are you picking on the Iranians? Could it be because most of them are
> > not "like you"?
>
> > Why to you not condemn the Septics for incinerating the Branch Davidians?
> > Too much like you?
>
> I'm "picking on them" because they do not allowbahai'sReligious freedom.
The Haifan Bahais strive not allow dissidents and schismatic rivals
religious freedom in the West, acting like Scientology does towards
its opponents, i.e. sue when you do not like rivals existing. Check
out,
http://trueseeker.typepad.com/true_seeker/court_case.html
> They don't allow Bahais to get an education and they throw innocentBahai's
> in jail.
BS. Don't believe everything you read and hear.
W
AHWA
wrote:
Dear David Moss,
How would you feel about an organization who issues intimidating
letters like this to their own members,
NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY OF THE BAHA'IS OF AUSTRALIA INCORPORATED
In reply please quote ref no:
OPM/CD
3 April 2002
Mr Hamid Taheri
19 Dunbar Rd
CLAREMONT WA 6010
[(08) 938-45246]
Dear Baha'i Friend,
The National Spiritual Assembly understands that you are involved in a
weekly Iranian television programme in Perth, sponsored by an Iranian
Muslim.
As you would undoubtedly be aware the House of Justice calls for
Baha'is to exercise great caution in their relations with the Iranian
community. The National Assembly has determined that your involvement
in this programme is not wise. In the best interests of the Faith you
should immediately cease your participation in this television
programme.
Due to the need to protect the Faith in Australia the National
Assembly feels it necessary to warn you that failure to comply with
this instruction will result in the removal of your administrative
rights. The National Assembly looks forward to receiving confirmation
that you have discontinued this activity.
We take this opportunity to recommend that you re-familiarize yourself
with the guidance of the Universal House of Justice in its letter
dated June 18, 1999. A copy of this letter is enclosed.
With loving Baha'i greetings,
NATIONAL SPIRITUAL ASSEMBLY
OF THE BAHA'IS OF AUSTRALIA INC.
Stephen Hall
Secretary
AHWA
> On Jun 5, 9:24 pm, David Moss <q0320...@mail.connect.usq.edu.au>
How would you also feel about an organization one of whose leaders
(now retired) once stated in a public speech that "freedom of
conscience is a dangerous delusion from Christianity"? If this is how
they *really* feel about the freedom of conscience then why are they
crying about the Iranian mullocracy curbing their activities,
especially when they do the same to their dissidents and schismatic
rivals? Frederick Glaysher has this episode by the Bahai leader
stating that "freedom of conscience is a dangerous delusion from
Christianity" fully documented on his page (see three posts above).
The Haifan Bahai organization (the dominant Bahai group) are not an
innocent, white as snow group. In my experience these people are
dangerous rightwing Religious Fascists and cultists far more
incendiary than even Scientology. No one should be persecuted for how
they decide to approach the Great Mystery, but this organization has a
long track-record of doing exactly that very thing to its own
ideological rivals.
Don't buy the hype!
W
Seon Ferguson
"AHWA" <wahid...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c88a58d-48ff-425b...@n19g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
about the Haifan's or the nsa I'm talking about people not being allowed to
practice the Religion of there choice and before you say it yes what the
Haifan is doing to the othordox bahai's in America is just as bad but I
believe everyone is equal and everyone should have the right to practice the
Religion of there choice. Including the Othorox Bahais.
Seon Ferguson
> On Jun 5, 6:29 pm, "Seon F" <s...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>> We've heard lots of stories of how the Iranian leader has said death to
>> Israel or death to America but no one (apart from people like Phillip
>> Addams) has drawn attention to the plight of thebahai'sin this
>> islamofacist society.
>
> The Haifan Bahaofascist organization is as Fascist as the
> Islamofascists, they are a cult and historically they also have the
> blood of sectarian detractors on their hands like the Islamofascists
> with theirs (I am happy to furnish you with further evidence if so
> required):
> www.fglaysher.com/bahaicensorship
>
followers should have the right to follow it just like true Muslims (non
juhadists) should have the right to practice Islam.
> Add to that the fact that questions linger over whether they are
> exaggerating their plight under the the Iranian mullocracy plus that
> they regularly harass schismatic rivals and dissidents in the West,
> and the picture begins to change radically. My advice to the remaining
> Iranian Baha'is in Iran is that if they able simply leave because the
> mullahs aren't going anywhere yet -- they have completely confuted all
> opposition to their rule, with the Bush administration surreptitiously
> helping them when invading Iraq and thereby pulling the rug from under
> the feet of the secular opposition (ask yourself, where did the
> reformists go?) -- and if the US-Israel start a war with Iran in 2009,
> Iran wouldn't be a place worth living in in any case.
>
It isn't worth living in now, unless your a women who enjoys being oppressed
that is.
Allot of the Bahai's in Iran have left. But I think some cant leave because
they cant afford it.
>> There's so many stories in this
>> websitehttp://www.bahai.org/persecution/iranposting them all would take
>> all night.
>
> Mostly exaggerated. Plus these people have deep pockets. Women, Kurds
> and secular opponents to the mullahs are the most persecuted groups
> presently in Iran. Yet the Haifan Bahais make the most noise about
> being persecuted when they aren't.
>
You have a good point. I would add to it by pointing out they are also
pleanty of other Religions being persecuted by Muslim leaders in the Middle
East but you dont see the Haifan's go on about them.
>> We hear about Christains being persecuted but nothing about one of the
>> most
>> least harmful Religion's in the world.
>
> Bahaism is not the least harmful religion in the world. If it ever
> gained any kind of ascendancy it would quickly become the most harmful
> cult in the world. These people are Stalinists all the way.
>
Haifan bahai is harmful but I'm sure they are Bahai othordox's in Iran being
persecuted as well.
Seon Ferguson
Same with Christianity, Islam and the rest. But that doesn't stop me from
standing up for the rights of Christians or even Catholics to practice the
Religion of there choice, or even Muslims.
AHWA
> Wow its interesting that you found your way to aus.politics. I'm not talking
> about the Haifan's or the nsa I'm talking about people not being allowed to
> practice the Religion of there choice and before you say it yes what the
> Haifan is doing to the othordox bahai's in America is just as bad but I
> believe everyone is equal and everyone should have the right to practice the
> Religion of there choice. Including the Othorox Bahais.
No one is going out of their way to persecute the Bahais in Iran,
Sean. The Haifan Bahai organization is 1) exaggerating persecution
claims in order to make news and hence keep itself relevant as well as
fan flames against the Iranians; and 2) the political (not RELIGIOUS)
stance of the Haifan Bahai organization is inimical to the national
security interests of Iran. Here in Australia organizations such as JI
are, rightfully, banned as illegal fifth columnist "terrorist"
organizations. Consider that the Iranian regime sees the Haifan Bahai
organization (and NOT individuals practicing the religion) in the
exact same way. Prominent members of the Haifan Bahai organization are
on record stating in black and white that they support a preemptive
military "nuclear" strike on Iran. Be fair, if you were a government,
how would you deal with an organization that unabashedly supports a
military strike and foreign occupation of your country? Furthermore,
the Haifan Bahai organization was knee deep involved in fabricating
the evidence which led to the invasion of Iraq, as we found out with
the murder of British UN weapons expert David Kelly and revelations
about his sidekick and Pentagon intelligence spook, Mia Pederson, both
of whom were card-carrying members of the Haifan Bahai organization.
W
AHWA
> While Haifan bahai does have a lot of cult like tendancies I still think the
> followers should have the right to follow it just like true Muslims (non
> juhadists) should have the right to practice Islam.
And they are, with no one bothering them. The Iranian regime has
recently gone after the active leadership of the Haifan organization,
not mom'n'pop regular practitioner.
> Haifan bahai is harmful but I'm sure they are Bahai othordox's in Iran being
> persecuted as well.
No one is persecuting Iranian Orthodox Bahais in Iran. If you have
evidence to the contrary, let's see it.
W
AHWA
> Same with Christianity, Islam and the rest. But that doesn't stop me from
> standing up for the rights of Christians or even Catholics to practice the
> Religion of there choice, or even Muslims.
Arguably Bahai is a NRM (New Religious Movement) cult like Scientology
or the Moonies and not an established religion like Christianity or
Islam. The rights of Bahais is not being violated in the Iran in the
manner you claim. As I have being stating for the record, much of
their claims to the Western media, under scrutiny, are revealed as
exaggerated, or even outright untrue.
W
Seon Ferguson
> On Jun 14, 6:50 pm, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> While Haifan bahai does have a lot of cult like tendancies I still think
>> the
>> followers should have the right to follow it just like true Muslims (non
>> juhadists) should have the right to practice Islam.
>
> And they are, with no one bothering them. The Iranian regime has
> recently gone after the active leadership of the Haifan organization,
> not mom'n'pop regular practitioner.
>
>
though.
Seon Ferguson
Oh I didnt realise they were Bahai's I just assumed they were Jews or
members of the Religious Right. Most of the Bahai's I talk to say they are a
non Religious organisation. Why should we judge an entire Religion (or cult)
based on what some of its members think?
Christains have stated that we should attack Iran as well. Does that mean
Christains should be persecuted? If I were the President of a country I
wouldnt just pick on one organisation that wants to attack my country. I
would want to pick on the Chriistains oh yeah and the Zionists who have
openly tried to pressure President bush.
I havnt heard of JI. Do you have any links?
Seon Ferguson
AHWA
> I hope your right they used to persecute normal run of the mill Bahai's
> though.
Says who?
W
AHWA
> Oh I didnt realise they were Bahai's I just assumed they were Jews or
> members of the Religious Right.
It was all over the global media! Look up the names MIA PEDERSON &
DAVID KELLY...
>Most of the Bahai's I talk to say they are a
> non Religious organisation.
Indeed, non-religious and very *political*.
>Why should we judge an entire Religion (or cult)
> based on what some of its members think?
Because what those prominent members think and say is the set policy
of the whole organization. If you're going to play that game, you
should also get off your high horse of judging imam al-Bashir or Imad
Samudra of JI for what they think.
> Christains have stated that we should attack Iran as well. Does that mean
> Christains should be persecuted?
Yes, but Christians aren't conducting actual espionage in Iran, or
with a track record of one, nor are they being persecuted in Iran. The
Haifan Bahaim organization is.
> I havnt heard of JI. Do you have any links?
Jama'-Islamiya? You do live in Australia, right? At least this is what
have you claimed. Google it.It is the terrorist group behind the Bali
bombing.
W
Seon Ferguson
> On Jun 15, 7:29 pm, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Oh I didnt realise they were Bahai's I just assumed they were Jews or
>> members of the Religious Right.
>
> It was all over the global media! Look up the names MIA PEDERSON &
> DAVID KELLY...
>
World Order for going public about the lies and deception? As for Mia
Pederson I haven't heard of her and they are only a few pages on Google that
mention her as a pentagon operative or something.
>>Most of the Bahai's I talk to say they are a
>> non Religious organisation.
>
> Indeed, non-religious and very *political*.
>
That was one of the many slip up's I take.
>>Why should we judge an entire Religion (or cult)
>> based on what some of its members think?
>
> Because what those prominent members think and say is the set policy
> of the whole organization. If you're going to play that game, you
> should also get off your high horse of judging imam al-Bashir or Imad
> Samudra of JI for what they think.
>
They are many Bahai's opposed to an attack on Iran. Just like Some
Christians oppose it while other's support it. Religions are always going to
have a different opinion when it comes to politics.
>> Christains have stated that we should attack Iran as well. Does that mean
>> Christains should be persecuted?
>
> Yes, but Christians aren't conducting actual espionage in Iran
No the Americans or Mossad are.
>, or
> with a track record of one, nor are they being persecuted in Iran. The
> Haifan Bahaim organization is.
>
Actually they have. Have you ever heard of operation ajax?
Muslims who have converted to Christianity have been executed in Islamic
countries though.
>> I havnt heard of JI. Do you have any links?
>
> Jama'-Islamiya? You do live in Australia, right? At least this is what
> have you claimed. Google it.It is the terrorist group behind the Bali
> bombing.
>
You mean this one:
Jemaah Islamiyah[1] (JI, Arabic phrase meaning "Islamic Group" or "Islamic
Community"; in Arabic, ??????? ?????????) is a Southeast Asian militant
Islamic organization dedicated to the establishment of a Daulah Islamiyah[2]
(Islamic State) in Southeast Asia incorporating Indonesia, Malaysia, the
southern Philippines, Singapore and Brunei[3]. JI was added to the United
Nations 1267 Committee's list of terrorist organizations linked to al-Qaeda
or the Taliban on 25 October 2002[4] under UN Security Council Resolution
1267.
I thought Bahai's were supposed to hate Muslims. Why would they contribute
to installing a jihadist country that would oppress followers of there
Religion?
You can focus on the Bahai's all you want. I'm going to focus on the real
enemy: Political Zionisim.
> W
Seon Ferguson
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%ADs#Deaths
Amnesty International and others report that 202 Bahá'ís have been killed
since the Islamic Revolution (see below).[45] The most recent death of a
Bahá'í in the custody of the Iranian government occurred on Dec, 15, 2005,
in the city of Yazd. Zabihullah Mahrami had been sentenced to death in 1995,
but in 1999 this was commuted to life in prison.[46] His arrest was for the
crime of apostasy against Islam, but he was convicted of spying for Israel.
He was approximately 59 years old.[46] He died in his prison cell of unknown
causes. The United States condemned the imprisonment and alleged persecution
of Zabihullah Mahrami, and State Department Deputy Spokesman, Adam Ereli,
said that Mr. Mahrami had received death threats in prison and been forced
to perform arduous physical labour.[46]
The most recent Bahá'í execution apparently occurred in 1998, when the
Iranian government hanged Ruhollah Rohani in Mashad on the charge of
converting a woman to the faith though she herself stated that she had been
a lifelong Bahá'í.[1] Newspaper accounts describe this as the first Bahá'í
execution in six years. Death sentences had also been passed against Sirus
Zabhi-Moghaddam and Hedayat Kashefi-Najabadi, which have apparently not yet
been carried out and Ataollah Hamid Nazrizadeh has received a ten-year
prison sentence for related offences arising from the same situation.
AHWA
> "AHWA" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:c9cbcceb-0b1c-404d...@x1g2000prh.googlegroups.com...> On Jun 15, 7:25 pm, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> I hope your right they used to persecute normal run of the mill Bahai's
> >> though.
>
> > Says who?
>
> > W
>
> Amnesty International for starters:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%ADs#Deaths
> Amnesty International and others report that 202 Bahá'ís have been killed
> since the Islamic Revolution (see below).[45]
That is 202 people in almost 30 years (as opposed to 350,000+ the
regime killed of others, such as political dissidents, Kurds,
leftists, women and other political opponents), the majority of whom
were killed during the revolutionary turmoil of 1979-80 before there
was a central government in control over the whole of Iran. You might
wish to educate yourself on the Revolution of 1979. Now, arguably, two-
thirds amongst the individuals killed in the reported amnesty missives
were killed for political and economic crimes committed under the
previous regime of the Shah, and not for being Bahais. That they
happened to be Bahais has been gratuitously used by the Haifan Bahai
organization to argue that they were killed for their religious
beliefs. Perusal of the files of these people will reveal they were
not executed for being Bahais, but for their corruption under the
previous regime and proximity to its leadership.
>The most recent death of a
> Bahá'í in the custody of the Iranian government occurred on Dec, 15, 2005,
> in the city of Yazd. Zabihullah Mahrami had been sentenced to death in 1995,
> but in 1999 this was commuted to life in prison.
The files the regime released of Mr Mahrami's case, which I discussed
all over the internet when it came out, prove that Mr Mahrami had a
previous and outstanding heart-condition. His commuted life sentence
proved that he had weekend visitation rights to his home, which is
apparently where he passed away, not in Iran. Even members of his own
family are on record stating that Mr Mahrami did not die at the hands
of his prison captors. There are also physician's reports by several
Iranian physicians who conducted his post mortem which confess on
record that Mr Mahrami died of natural causes. The Mahrami episode of
a clear as day case of lobbying, manufactured consent and wagging the
dog. I have challenged both AI, which I am a card-carying member of,
as well as the Haifan Bahaim organization to produce credible counter-
evidence proving that Mr Mahrami was executed by his captors in
custody. AI claimed in writing that their information was culled from
that given to it by the Haifan Bahaim organization. So I will put this
out there again, if there is credibly verifiable "scientific" evidence
proving beyond any reasonable doubt that Mr Mahrami died of anything
other than natural causes, let's see it.
>[46] His arrest was for the
> crime of apostasy against Islam, but he was convicted of spying for Israel.
> He was approximately 59 years old.[46]
Mr Zabiullah Mahrami was arrested in the late 1990s in the Holy Shiite
City of Mashhad, where the shrine of the 8th Shi'ite Imam Rida is
located, propagating and distributing pro-Bahai pamphlets, so
deliberately provoking the religious population in the area. The
reckless insanity of such an act is as if a naked young woman were to
ride into the men's section of the Wailing Wall during the Sabbath or
Passover seated upon a Harley Davison motorcycle; this, whilst lauding
and proclaiming her devotion to Lilith! It is the height of hypocrisy
for the pro-Israeli Jewish lobby in the United States (and its
associates) to gratuitously make fanfare about this incident, and even
lie and embelllish it, when Israeli authorities would on the spot
arrest and incarcerate anyone who flouted and provoked Orthodox Jews
in the manner that Zabi'ulllah Mahrami did with the local pious
Shi'ite population of Mashhad. This act, contextualized properly, was
analogous to someone yelling 'FIRE' in a theatre. The treatment that
Mahrami received later, and his commuting sentence, prove the Haifan
Bahai organization are utter liars who are grossly embellishing and
lying about the facts of an incident for their own selfish political
purposes.
> The most recent Bahá'í execution apparently occurred in 1998, when the
> Iranian government hanged Ruhollah Rohani in Mashad on the charge of
> converting a woman to the faith though she herself stated that she had been
> a lifelong Bahá'í.[1]
Which further bolsters my argument about Mahrami. These Haifan Bahais
are deliberately attempting to provoke and incite people, and then
they hide behind human rights when they are called on it.
>Newspaper accounts describe this as the first Bahá'í
> execution in six years. Death sentences had also been passed against Sirus
> Zabhi-Moghaddam and Hedayat Kashefi-Najabadi, which have apparently not yet
> been carried out and Ataollah Hamid Nazrizadeh has received a ten-year
> prison sentence for related offences arising from the same situation.
There you go. All these reports implicitly reinforce the fact that
these people were deliberately acting in capacities inimical to the
public weal and interest. The Haifan Bahai organization deceitfully
claims there are 300,000 members in Iran. How is it that amongst
300,000 members (which there are not) that not even a handful of
people end up in prison with death sentences. This is not a religious
issue or one about the free exercise thereof! The Haifan Bahai
leadership is deliberately trying to provoke the local religious
populations against its deputized agents so that it can then run to HR
organizations in the West claiming HR violations. Once again, if there
are 300,000 Bahais in Iran, that an insignificantly negligible number
of these people are purportedly being persecuted, proves and
reinforces the fact that Bahais are NOT being persecuted in Iran and
those incarcerated have actually broken laws and disrupted the public
weal.
W
AHWA
> "AHWA" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:9e0877ac-a104-4f70...@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...> On Jun 15, 7:29 pm, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> Oh I didnt realise they were Bahai's I just assumed they were Jews or
> >> members of the Religious Right.
>
> > It was all over the global media! Look up the names MIA PEDERSON &
> > DAVID KELLY...
>
> David Kelly... you mean the former weapons inspector taken out by the New
> World Order for going public about the lies and deception?
That one.
> As for Mia
> Pederson I haven't heard of her and they are only a few pages on Google that
> mention her as a pentagon operative or something.
She was his sidekick during the UN weapons inspections during the
period that ultimately led to the Axis of the Willing invading Iraq.
Mia Pederson was unmasked by the British Press as a spook and
operative of the US Pentagon. Both Kelly and Pederson were card-
carrying Haifan Bahai organization members.
> Actually they have. Have you ever heard of operation ajax?
Operation Ajax was the CIA covert-op led by Kermit Roosevelt in 1953
that toppled Premier Mohammad Mossadeq and reinstalled the Shah. What
about it?
> Muslims who have converted to Christianity have been executed in Islamic
> countries though.
Not in Iran. If you have evidence to the contrary proving Christians
have recently been killed by the state in Iran, kindly produce it.
Taliban on 25 October 2002[4] under UN Security Council Resolution
> 1267.
>
> I thought Bahai's were supposed to hate Muslims. Why would they contribute
> to installing a jihadist country that would oppress followers of there
> Religion?
Sean, you are not stupid. Follow the argument. In Iran the activities
of the Haifan Bahai organization are perceived as being analogous to
how we in the West we perceive al-Qa'ida, or here in Australia how we
perceive JI. Capiche?
> You can focus on the Bahai's all you want. I'm going to focus on the real
> enemy: Political Zionisim.
Then get off your Bahai whistling bandwagon because wherever you go on
USENET, that's all you seem to want to talk about.
W
AHWA
> > Says who?
> > W
apparently where he passed away.... Even members of his own
family are on record stating that Mr Mahrami did not die at the hands
of his prison captors. There are also physicians reports by several
Iranian physicians who conducted his post mortem which confess on
record that Mr Mahrami died of natural causes. The Mahrami episode is
a clear as day case of lobbying, manufactured consent and wagging the
dog! I have challenged both AI, which I am a card-carying member of,
as well as the Haifan Bahaim organization to produce credible counter-
evidence proving that Mr Mahrami was executed by his captors in
custody. AI claimed in writing that their information was culled from
that given to it by the Haifan Bahai organization. So I will put this
out there again, if there is credibly verifiable "scientific" evidence
proving beyond any reasonable doubt that Mr Mahrami died of anything
other than natural causes, let's see it.
>[46] His arrest was for the
> crime of apostasy against Islam, but he was convicted of spying for Israel.
> He was approximately 59 years old.[46]
Mr Zabiullah Mahrami was arrested in the late 1990s in the Holy Shiite
City of Mashhad, where the shrine of the 8th Shi'ite Imam Rida is
located, propagating and distributing pro-Bahai pamphlets, so
deliberately provoking the religious population in the area. The
reckless insanity of such an act is as if a naked young woman were to
ride into the men's section of the Wailing Wall during the Sabbath or
Passover seated upon a Harley Davison motorcycle; this, whilst lauding
and proclaiming her devotion to Lilith! It is the height of hypocrisy
for the pro-Israeli Jewish lobby in the United States (and its
associates) to gratuitously make fanfare about this incident, and even
lie and embellish it, when Israeli authorities would on the spot
arrest and incarcerate anyone who flouted and provoked Orthodox Jews
in the manner that Zabi'ulllah Mahrami did with the local pious
Shi'ite population of Mashhad. This act, contextualized properly, was
analogous to someone yelling 'FIRE' in a crowded theatre. The
treatment that
Mahrami received later, and his commuting sentence, prove the Haifan
Bahai organization are utter liars who are grossly embellishing and
lying about the facts of an incident for their own selfish political
purposes and gain.
> The most recent Bahá'í execution apparently occurred in 1998, when the
> Iranian government hanged Ruhollah Rohani in Mashad on the charge of
> converting a woman to the faith though she herself stated that she had been
> a lifelong Bahá'í.[1]
Which further bolsters my argument about Mahrami. These Haifan Bahais
are deliberately attempting to provoke and incite people, and then
they hide behind human rights when they are called on it.
>Newspaper accounts describe this as the first Bahá'í
> execution in six years. Death sentences had also been passed against Sirus
> Zabhi-Moghaddam and Hedayat Kashefi-Najabadi, which have apparently not yet
> been carried out and Ataollah Hamid Nazrizadeh has received a ten-year
> prison sentence for related offences arising from the same situation.
There you go. All these reports implicitly reinforce the fact that
these people were deliberately acting in capacities inimical to the
public weal and interest. The Haifan Bahai organization deceitfully
claims there are 300,000 members in Iran. How is it that amongst
300,000 members (which there are not) that not even a handful of
people end up in prison with death sentences. This is not a religious
issue at all or one about the free exercise thereof! The Haifan Bahai
Seon Ferguson
> On Jun 16, 1:24 pm, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> "AHWA" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>
>> news:9e0877ac-a104-4f70...@u36g2000prf.googlegroups.com...>
>> On Jun 15, 7:29 pm, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> Oh I didnt realise they were Bahai's I just assumed they were Jews or
>> >> members of the Religious Right.
>>
>> > It was all over the global media! Look up the names MIA PEDERSON &
>> > DAVID KELLY...
>>
>> David Kelly... you mean the former weapons inspector taken out by the New
>> World Order for going public about the lies and deception?
>
> That one.
>
>> As for Mia
>> Pederson I haven't heard of her and they are only a few pages on Google
>> that
>> mention her as a pentagon operative or something.
>
> She was his sidekick during the UN weapons inspections during the
> period that ultimately led to the Axis of the Willing invading Iraq.
> Mia Pederson was unmasked by the British Press as a spook and
> operative of the US Pentagon. Both Kelly and Pederson were card-
> carrying Haifan Bahai organization members.
>
>> Actually they have. Have you ever heard of operation ajax?
>
> Operation Ajax was the CIA covert-op led by Kermit Roosevelt in 1953
> that toppled Premier Mohammad Mossadeq and reinstalled the Shah. What
> about it?
>
Just proof that Christains have been doing things in Iran since the 50's.
>> Muslims who have converted to Christianity have been executed in Islamic
>> countries though.
>
> Not in Iran. If you have evidence to the contrary proving Christians
> have recently been killed by the state in Iran, kindly produce it.
>
>
Oh and these links have personal stories for Bahai's persecuted. I'm not
sure if you'll believe them or think there propaganda
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2008/2264059.htm
http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s1651651.htm#anchor1
As for Christians being executed in Iran for converting from Islam I couldnt
find any but this site at least shows they are persecuted in Iran (read the
top story) http://www.thevoiceofthemartyrs.org/pnp.htm
> Taliban on 25 October 2002[4] under UN Security Council Resolution
>> 1267.
>>
>> I thought Bahai's were supposed to hate Muslims. Why would they
>> contribute
>> to installing a jihadist country that would oppress followers of there
>> Religion?
>
>
> Sean, you are not stupid. Follow the argument. In Iran the activities
> of the Haifan Bahai organization are perceived as being analogous to
> how we in the West we perceive al-Qa'ida, or here in Australia how we
> perceive JI. Capiche?
>
But why? I still dont see what followers of the Bahai faith have done. I
couldnt find any links to any terrorist groups. I know American sponsered
terrorist groups in Iran have commited attacks in the recent mmonths but
where is the evidence that they are connected to bahai's?
>> You can focus on the Bahai's all you want. I'm going to focus on the real
>> enemy: Political Zionisim.
>
> Then get off your Bahai whistling bandwagon because wherever you go on
> USENET, that's all you seem to want to talk about.
>
If you read my previous posts in alt.conspiracy you would also see I talk
about impeaching Bush and other things. I have even been called a kook and
nominated for a "kook award" for my opposition to the new world order. In
concussion I am well aware of the illegal activities committed by
Zionists/USA and how they control the government. I just cant find any
evidence to support your claims. Sorry. To me Bahai is just a Religious
organization that shuns its members for daring to do business with people
from Iran. If the Bahai Religion was defeated today and all the Bahai's woke
up and converted to the Bahai Orthodox Religion there would still be
Zionists out there. Like Christian Zionists and Jewish Zionists.
Seon Ferguson
W
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well some of them did do some pretty stupid things. Maybe Bahai's are like
the Jews and have a persecution complex.
Even if your wrong I still dont support an attack on Iran. If the US ever
attacks Iran it will be because they caved into the Israel lobby which as we
both know controlls both parties.
AHWA
> So where is the evidence she was Bahai? do you have any quotes?
Google it. And also watch this film,
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2877478116441126906&hl=en-AU
> Just proof that Christains have been doing things in Iran since the 50's.
Unless you wish to associate everything in the history of the US to
Christianity, Operation Ajax was committed by an explicitly secular
state.
> Oh and these links have personal stories for Bahai's persecuted. I'm not
> sure if you'll believe them or think there propagandahttp://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2008/2264059.htmhttp://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s1651651.htm#anchor1
Exaggerated propaganda.
> As for Christians being executed in Iran for converting from Islam I couldnt
> find any
Because nothing of the sort has happened.
>but this site at least shows they are persecuted in Iran (read the
> top story)http://www.thevoiceofthemartyrs.org/pnp.htm
More exaggerated propaganda.
> But why? I still dont see what followers of the Bahai faith have done.
The Haifan Bahai organization (not lay believers) has actively worked
for the destabilization of Iran and has functioned in the capacity of
a criminal organization. They have done this in multiple contexts, and
not just under the present regime or in Iran, either. Maybe this will
change your mind, giving you a sneak-peak as to the kind of no-good
activities they have been up to elsewhere.
-
http://epaper.hindustantimes.com/
SPY RING BUSTED? - Bahai trustees accused of embezzling funds
NAZIYA Alvi
New Delhi
IN A complaint filed in a city court, a few trustees of the National
Spiritual Assembly of Bahais of India have been accused of espionage
by
their colleagues. Apparently, they were supplying classified documents
from India's defence establishments to Israeli and Iranian spying
agencies and making huge amounts in foreign currency.
Taking cognisance of the complaint, the additional chief metropolitan
magistrate, Kamini Lau, has directed the Economic Offence Wing Cell to
immediately register a case against the accused persons. The court has
also asked the cell to file a status report with it by August 10.
As per the allegations in the complaint, one of the accused, N.K.
Bhudhiraja, general manager of finance with the spiritual
organisation,
forged an identity card and af fixed his photograph on an armed forces
concessions form for fee baggage allowance, which is needed for
military officials travelling to places in India and abroad.
Apparently, he also used to travel under the fictitious name of
'Captain S. Budhiraja' of the air force station at Yelahanka.
Apparently, the accused, by using such impersonations and forgery
managed to clandestinely penetrate into the prohibited defence
establishment of the country and get hold of classified documents. In
turn, he supplied the sensitive documents to spying agencies in Israel
and Iran in return of foreign currency.
The complaint has also alleged that the stamp of the air force station
at Yelahanka had been forged with some amount of accuracy and was
being
used by the accused trustees of the 'spiritual assembly'.
The complaint also alleges that another accused, Payam Shoghi, also a
trustee with the society, is in truth an Iranian national. He
fraudulently got his name inserted in the ration card of another
accused and also got it attested.
On the basis of the ration card he managed to procure an Indian
passport. The complaint also states that such passports have been
issued to a number of other foreigners by the accused people through a
similar fashion of forgery.
The counsel of three complainants Swadesh Kumar, Khub Singh and
Gulshan
Kumar told the court that they have definitive documentary evidence to
prove that the accused were, in addition to the other violations,
involved in a large scale Hawala transaction network.
-
If an organization - or officials associated therein - did something
like this in Australia or anywhere else, for that matter, they would
be classed as treasonous and tried for high treason. Consider that the
activities of the officialdom of the Haifan Bahai organization is
exactly the same.
<snip>
W
AHWA
> Well some of them did do some pretty stupid things. Maybe Bahai's are like
> the Jews and have a persecution complex.
Ya think!? But whereas with the Jews where and when persecution has
occurred it has been real, protracted and meticulously documented, not
so with the Bahais in Iran, who have grossly and deceitfully cried
wolf again and again and again - with a gullible (or otherwise already
biased) Western audience buying such wolf cries hook, line and
stinker.
W
Seon Ferguson
> On Jun 16, 4:55 pm, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So where is the evidence she was Bahai? do you have any quotes?
>
> Google it. And also watch this film,
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2877478116441126906&hl=en-AU
>
>> Just proof that Christains have been doing things in Iran since the 50's.
>
> Unless you wish to associate everything in the history of the US to
> Christianity, Operation Ajax was committed by an explicitly secular
> state.
>
>
>> Oh and these links have personal stories for Bahai's persecuted. I'm not
>> sure if you'll believe them or think there
>> propagandahttp://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2008/2264059.htmhttp://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/8.30/relrpt/stories/s1651651.htm#anchor1
>
> Exaggerated propaganda.
>
>> As for Christians being executed in Iran for converting from Islam I
>> couldnt
>> find any
>
> Because nothing of the sort has happened.
>
>>but this site at least shows they are persecuted in Iran (read the
>> top story)http://www.thevoiceofthemartyrs.org/pnp.htm
>
> More exaggerated propaganda.
>
Maybe but you do at least admit the extremists who have taken over Islam
control countries like Saudi Arabia etc right?
By the way the CIA were the one's who funded Islamic extremism.
Have they been found guilty yet? Maybe some Bahai's really are spying for
Mossad.
Seon Ferguson
> On Jun 16, 4:55 pm, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> So where is the evidence she was Bahai? do you have any quotes?
>
> Google it. And also watch this film,
> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2877478116441126906&hl=en-AU
>
results.
Seon Ferguson
have read have been against leaders. What would you say to the charge that
if your Bahai your not allowed to go to University in Iran?
AHWA
> Oh yeah and I tried to google Mia's name and Bahai but i didnt get any
> results.
Then you must be using Google in an alternative universe since Mia
PEDERSON yields well over 10 pages of results on this end.
W
AHWA
> Yeah I actually agree with you on that. All the cases of Bahai persecution I
> have read have been against leaders.
There you go.
>What would you say to the charge that
> if your Bahai your not allowed to go to University in Iran?
I would say it is bullshit because I can name you joe Bahai relatives
of mine and acquaintances who have gone to University and
marticulated.
W
AHWA
> Ok even if your right that shows Bahai's arent the only source of all evil.
Yet a source of evil nevertheless; that is, since you insist on
putting it that way.
> >> Oh and these links have personal stories for Bahai's persecuted. I'm not
> >> sure if you'll believe them or think there
> >> propagandahttp://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2008/2264059.htmhttp:/...
> Maybe but you do at least admit the extremists who have taken over Islam
> control countries like Saudi Arabia etc right?
I am an enemy of Wahhabism and the Sa'udi Kingdom for a numerous of
reasons. Unless you don't know who I am, you would know that already.
If the House of Sa'ud and its various internal economic dependencies
were liquidated, 99% of the problems worldwide with Sunni Islamist
extremists would end tomorrow, since they (these friends and business
associates of the present US administration) bankroll the whole thing
globally.
> By the way the CIA were the one's who funded Islamic extremism.
Indeed they were, just like they're now funding the Haifan Bahai
organization to do black-ops and propaganda for them in Iran and in
India using "persecution" as a convenient ploy.
> Maybe some Bahai's really are spying for
> Mossad.
Go figure...
I'll put this question to you as delicately as possible: are you now
or have you ever been a member of the Haifan Bahai organization? ;)
W
Seon Ferguson
> On Jun 16, 7:02 pm, "Seon Ferguson" <seo...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok even if your right that shows Bahai's arent the only source of all
>> evil.
>
> Yet a source of evil nevertheless; that is, since you insist on
> putting it that way.
>
>
>> >> Oh and these links have personal stories for Bahai's persecuted. I'm
>> >> not
>> >> sure if you'll believe them or think there
>> >> propagandahttp://www.abc.net.au/rn/latenightlive/stories/2008/2264059.htmhttp:/...
>
>> Maybe but you do at least admit the extremists who have taken over Islam
>> control countries like Saudi Arabia etc right?
>
> I am an enemy of Wahhabism and the Sa'udi Kingdom for a numerous of
> reasons. Unless you don't know who I am, you would know that already.
> If the House of Sa'ud and its various internal economic dependencies
> were liquidated, 99% of the problems worldwide with Sunni Islamist
> extremists would end tomorrow, since they (these friends and business
> associates of the present US administration) bankroll the whole thing
> globally.
>
on Iran. Is that true? Saudi Arabia did fund the 911 hijackers so that
pretty much helps your argument.
>> By the way the CIA were the one's who funded Islamic extremism.
>
> Indeed they were, just like they're now funding the Haifan Bahai
> organization to do black-ops and propaganda for them in Iran and in
> India using "persecution" as a convenient ploy.
>
Its possible they are involved in funding extremisim in other Religions.
>> Maybe some Bahai's really are spying for
>> Mossad.
>
> Go figure...
>
>
> I'll put this question to you as delicately as possible: are you now
> or have you ever been a member of the Haifan Bahai organization? ;)
>
> W
Ok I'm taking this oppertunity to come out and admit to you that I am a
Bahai sympathiser. I do not agree with the actions of the Haifan LEADERS
(thanks to you) nor do I see any evidence to support the claims that they
are as powerful as the Zionists. They may habe spied for them, we will let
the courts decide that but anyway I symopthise with all followers of
Baha'u'llah. I have never been a member of a Bahai organisation, I just
attend some Bahai events like I do to Christian one's. Is there any way to
prove to you I am not a member? If so please tell me and I will be happy to
comply. Also consider the fact if I was in the Haifan organisation I would
just say no, why would I risk your suspicions by saying I'm a sympathiser?
Seon Ferguson
It does in fact it has more pages then that but none that say she is a
bahai, sorry. Its possible she is a Bahai but I want to see evidence.
AHWA
> "AHWA" <wahidaza...@gmail.com> wrote in message
First you say there weren't any links. Now you admit there are links,
but nothing about her Bahaism. Make your mind up, Sean. All of the
links linking to the major newspaper headlines of the story mention
her affiliation and the movie I linked to on Googlemovies devotes an
entire 15 minute segment to the fact that Pederson is a card-carrying
Haifan Bahai, with experts on-hand stating it for the record as well.
W