Why Australia needs welfare!
Michael
The reason for that post is that I have seen overseas a society
in which welfare is almost non existent because the country is
poor. However, in most of these countries there are much less
restrictions when it comes to earn a living.
Ok, people might say they don't want to live like the Philippinos.
In consequence let me suggest to use a society which has more
culture, is better educated, and (for the Pauline Hanson supporters)
is a white race - the European countries of the former USSR and
Eastern block.
People there may paint peoples' houses inside and out or renovate
their flat, landscape peoples' gardens and do all sorts of other work
without a licence. However, if they do a bodge job they
don't get paid. If they do damage they have to repair the damage.
If they haven't got the money to repair the damage they are jailed
on forced labour and their wages for the labour is used to make good
their damage.
People can set up without restrictions car washes in their house and
put an advertising sign on their front fence.
If you earn you are laughing. You can get your car washed in the
neighbourhood, you get someone to do jobs around the house
quickly and since the competition is big the prices are low and the
workmanship is good.
There are no licences required to prepare food. However, if the
food is bad and someone gets ill there is big trouble. If someone
is poisoned by food the preparer will go to jail for manslaughter.
If someone gets sick of the food the preparer again will be jailed for
causing grievous bodily harm. This works very well in combination
with the fact that being in prison in Australia is a Club Med holiday
compared to being in prison there.
Advantage for the earners - you can order the tastiest and most
wonderful meals with greatest varieties when you don't feel like
cooking. They are delivered hot to your door and cost very little.
People can set up street stalls on the roadside where they may
sell anything. Many people set up a stall next to a bus stop or
a tram stop or near a taxi stand. Most people set up a stall in
a place where others set up a stall which produces a big kind of
bazaar.
Even the local government builds little shelters people can rent
but the rent is only a few bucks a week. These shelters are often
put near bus and tram stops, at some roadside locations and
large vacant public pieces of real estate. In this way the Government
provides a large "bazaar".
Advantage for the earners:
You can buy a pare or a coke cheap waiting for a bus or a tram.
You can buy a quick snack at the bus-stop if you feel hungry.
You can leave your flat or house, cross the street and quickly
buy some bread, some butter, some biscuits and many other
things. When you drive home you can stop on a roadside
stall and buy quickly a few tomatoes, apples, whatever you fancy.
Go to the bazaars and you can buy everything your heart desires
for only little money. Much of the produce is home grown and all
is fresh. None of the produce is grown with chemicals (people can't
afford to buy chemicals). You can buy home made jams, home made
salty gurkins, home made fermented cabbage (Germans call it
sauerkraut) directly out of the vat. You can buy meat. Fishermen
come to the bazaar to sell their fish which is fresh just off the boat.
Tomatoes are red, they ripened on the bush and in consequence
they taste like tomatoes. Fruit ripened on the bush or tree instead
of on supermarket shelves.
Woolworth, eat your heart out - eat your expensive shit yourself!
Those countries are blessed, there is no Woolies or Coles! There
is proper and healthy food.
There are bazaars where people sell there handicraft and artwork.
It is mind-blowing. Tourists flow in just to buy artwork.
The bazaars became a tourist attraction and provide a lot of
income for the people and the country.....
....whilst in Australia many shops are closed on weekends when the
tourists come....
Now who suffers from that unregulated place?
The consumer? No, the consumer gets things at lower
prices and gets higher quality than in Australia.
The trader? No, because things are cheap people can afford
more and the trader makes a good income because he sells
more (less profit per peace but higher turnover = more accumulated
profit under the line).
The Government? May be a little because they miss out on revenue
due to licence fees and other charges but the Government saves
a lot of welfare and they have more tax revenue. Under the line
the Government probably breaks even.
Big multinationals and big business? Definitely yes! Woolworth
and Coles would not be able to compete or would make
a lot less profit to the point where they might feel it would
not be worthwhile to set up there. The only supermarket
chain which can survive there is the German Aldi group.
Yes, the rip-off merchants cannot survive there! Big business
has to compete, they cannot "kick out" the small ones because
there are too many of them and the population likes to buy
of the small stalls because their produce is fresher and cheaper.
Looking at that I can only say that the Australian business
environment is set up to protect the rich and powerful, the speculators
and otherwise not productive and useless individuals.
Australia protects the "establishment" and keeps others down.
No wonder there is now as much poverty in Australia and the
USA as it is in poor Eastern European countries. Give it another
5 years continuing our current policies and you will see Australians
and Americans emigrate to Eastern Europe because of better
opportunities. May be it's time you go to some school and learn
Russian, tovarish....
Sad, really, Australia has so much potential. Why do Governments
on all levels keep fucking it up?
arovo
Michael wrote in message ...
webmaster services ban list to stop the propagation of your messages. be
warned
Seppo Renfors
Michael wrote:
>
> I have posted a message claiming we owe the unemployed.
> The reason for that post is that I have seen overseas a society
> in which welfare is almost non existent because the country is
> poor. However, in most of these countries there are much less
> restrictions when it comes to earn a living.
Read it, didn't like it.
>
> Ok, people might say they don't want to live like the Philippinos.
> In consequence let me suggest to use a society which has more
> culture, is better educated, and (for the Pauline Hanson supporters)
> is a white race - the European countries of the former USSR and
> Eastern block.
I think they are probably better off in the Philippines at the moment.
The changes to their economic structure were to fast, and not enough
safety nets. However they didn't really have lot of options from their
pervious super socialist system that was some motherless broke!
>
> People there may paint peoples' houses inside and out or renovate
> their flat, landscape peoples' gardens and do all sorts of other work
> without a licence. However, if they do a bodge job they
> don't get paid. If they do damage they have to repair the damage.
> If they haven't got the money to repair the damage they are jailed
> on forced labour and their wages for the labour is used to make good
> their damage.
Painters don't need a licence here. Gardeners don't need a license
here. Neither are they entitled to get paid if they do a poor job.
They too can be held liable for damages they cause. They don't
necessarily get dumped behind bars for braking a vase in someone's
house while they are painting the inside of it. That is rather
draconian to say the least.
>
> People can set up without restrictions car washes in their house and
> put an advertising sign on their front fence.
They might, but the the USSR has never had anything but a horrible
reputation for virtual "environmental vandalism", and that car washing
business IS exactly that, unless you have all the right gear to
separate the pollutants from the water first before releasing it.
>
> If you earn you are laughing. You can get your car washed in the
> neighbourhood, you get someone to do jobs around the house
> quickly and since the competition is big the prices are low and the
> workmanship is good.
There are a number of enterprising people doing things like that.
There is even a couple of brothers who hire themselves out as
"companions" to look after the elderly when they go to the ATM or
shopping - see them safely to where they need to go and back home
again. They charge $20/hr for their service.
>
> There are no licences required to prepare food. However, if the
> food is bad and someone gets ill there is big trouble. If someone
> is poisoned by food the preparer will go to jail for manslaughter.
> If someone gets sick of the food the preparer again will be jailed for
> causing grievous bodily harm. This works very well in combination
> with the fact that being in prison in Australia is a Club Med holiday
> compared to being in prison there.
Yeah, right.... if they end up in the slammer for poisoning someone, I
suppose the dead person would like it much.... oh, sorry he wont say
much - he's dead already. The health regulations are a preventative
measure, as you can't correct the mistakes -specially if some poor
bugger died, a bit late then. There are people who think they are
starting to go a bit overboard with these things.
Certainly it depends on what it is that is being produced. There are
products you could do at relatively minimal cost outlays.
>
> Advantage for the earners - you can order the tastiest and most
> wonderful meals with greatest varieties when you don't feel like
> cooking. They are delivered hot to your door and cost very little.
It is already being done commercially. Small numbers of customers, and
all you manage is kiddies pocket money out of it. Larger quantities
you tend to loose the quality. Then you ARE going to run into problems
with distribution, wages, awards etc.
>
> People can set up street stalls on the roadside where they may
> sell anything. Many people set up a stall next to a bus stop or
> a tram stop or near a taxi stand. Most people set up a stall in
> a place where others set up a stall which produces a big kind of
> bazaar.
You can here too. They are all over the place. Usually weekly of
bi-weekly. Some are only monthly.
>
> Even the local government builds little shelters people can rent
> but the rent is only a few bucks a week. These shelters are often
> put near bus and tram stops, at some roadside locations and
> large vacant public pieces of real estate. In this way the Government
> provides a large "bazaar".
Ballarat has a huge market weekly. It is run by Ballarat South Rotary
Club. There are indoor sites with/without power out door sites
with/without power. Some time since I was there last, but cost of
stalls ranged from $12 to $17 unpowered and I think up to $30 for
powered sites. From rental of stalls Ballarat South RC was making a
1/4 million a year - that also ended up back in the community one way
or another.
There are people who do nothing but travel around a circuit of these
markets all year round.
>
> Advantage for the earners:
> You can buy a pare or a coke cheap waiting for a bus or a tram.
> You can buy a quick snack at the bus-stop if you feel hungry.
> You can leave your flat or house, cross the street and quickly
> buy some bread, some butter, some biscuits and many other
> things. When you drive home you can stop on a roadside
> stall and buy quickly a few tomatoes, apples, whatever you fancy.
You can already do all of that, but you may have to take two or three
step to do so. You might also have to think about it before you get to
the bus stop, and hop into a shop on your way.
>
> Go to the bazaars and you can buy everything your heart desires
> for only little money. Much of the produce is home grown and all
> is fresh. None of the produce is grown with chemicals (people can't
> afford to buy chemicals). You can buy home made jams, home made
> salty gurkins, home made fermented cabbage (Germans call it
> sauerkraut) directly out of the vat.
As I said you already CAN, right now.
> You can buy meat. Fishermen
> come to the bazaar to sell their fish which is fresh just off the boat.
> Tomatoes are red, they ripened on the bush and in consequence
> they taste like tomatoes. Fruit ripened on the bush or tree instead
> of on supermarket shelves.
You will not purchase meat and fish (other than from the wharf) other
than in permanent recognised markets, where each has a permanent
"stall", due to health regulations. Fish is a serious problem. You DO
need a license to fish and sell commercially. Regulation are required
here.
I have heard of people netting, and they talk about not how many fish,
but how many DOZEN they get, and one person said he netted 75 DOZEN
garfish! That is for a family of TWO only. No, I don't think amateur
fishermen should be allowed ANY nets at all. No bloody sport in that
anyway. Secondly it depletes fish stocks, and ruins markets for the
professionals who are already restricted in their catch sizes for many
types of fish.
The Russians have damned near managed to kill off their Sturgeon in
the wild and it is now farmed. Their rivers are seriously polluted
from industry, making restocking of it difficult too. Where they
manage to do so poaching is depleting them before they grow to a
proper size...
> Woolworth, eat your heart out - eat your expensive shit yourself!
> Those countries are blessed, there is no Woolies or Coles! There
> is proper and healthy food.
.... FOOD is right, but "healthy"? How do you know? You simply take
yer chances... me I'd rather purchase a cross lotto ticket that get
some spoiled foods. Remember they don't have temperatures of 40 deg in
the water bag either!!
> There are bazaars where people sell there handicraft and artwork.
> It is mind-blowing. Tourists flow in just to buy artwork.
You have them here too...
>
> The bazaars became a tourist attraction and provide a lot of
> income for the people and the country.....
same here....
>
> ....whilst in Australia many shops are closed on weekends when the
> tourists come....
But hang on, you were advocating closing shops earlier, "Those
countries are blessed, there is no Woolies or Coles"
>
> Now who suffers from that unregulated place?
> The consumer? No, the consumer gets things at lower
> prices and gets higher quality than in Australia.
Yes the consumer, as they are at the mercy of whomever happens to feel
like turning up somewhere with some goods of god only knows what
quality. There IS a possibility of "lower prices", but that has the
effect of lower incomes to the sellers/producers - a loss of living
standards at the same time - further more the safety of food products
would often be questionable.
>
> The trader? No, because things are cheap people can afford
> more and the trader makes a good income because he sells
> more (less profit per peace but higher turnover = more accumulated
> profit under the line).
Ah, come on! You are talking minuscule volumes here -ie HIGH COST
production. Whilst your theory is right, fo MASS PRODUCTION and HIGH
VOLUME sales - you are dead WRONG for a back yard producer.
>
> The Government? May be a little because they miss out on revenue
> due to licence fees and other charges but the Government saves
> a lot of welfare and they have more tax revenue. Under the line
> the Government probably breaks even.
Their greatest loss would be from income taxes and GST revenue loss.
Then they would have to INCREASE taxes.... making things less
affordable.... increasing prices... higher wage demands... etc etc
>
> Big multinationals and big business? Definitely yes! Woolworth
> and Coles would not be able to compete or would make
> a lot less profit to the point where they might feel it would
> not be worthwhile to set up there. The only supermarket
> chain which can survive there is the German Aldi group.
Both Woollies and Coles would survive very well indeed. The home
grower of things would break even or get a few cents pocket money out
of it. You have been watching "The good life" on TV too much.
>
> Yes, the rip-off merchants cannot survive there! Big business
> has to compete, they cannot "kick out" the small ones because
> there are too many of them and the population likes to buy
> of the small stalls because their produce is fresher and cheaper.
So a store that uses "loss leaders" to attract customers, and only
makes around 1 to 1.5% profit on the goods, the rest comes from
renting shelf space, is going to be thrown out by the little people
:-)
They better be the fairies at the bottom of the garden with their pots
of gold :-)
A tomato costs the supermarket say 50 cents - how many tomatoes would
one of these "back-yard farmers" have to sell to make $450/week? Let
me tell you - it is 4500 of them, and that is at a 2% mark-up,
assuming the 50 cents goes to "production costs"!! But lets say it was
100% profit, and they undercut the supermarket, it STILL amounts to
225 of them. Do you think a back garden farm will produce that many?
What will they sell next week, and the week after that?
> Looking at that I can only say that the Australian business
> environment is set up to protect the rich and powerful, the speculators
> and otherwise not productive and useless individuals.
> Australia protects the "establishment" and keeps others down.
Oh SURE it does.... there are no such things as consumer protection
Laws... health regulations ensuring safe products only are sold...
codes of conduct... minimum standards requirements... no, none of that
exists at all...
> No wonder there is now as much poverty in Australia and the
> USA as it is in poor Eastern European countries. Give it another
> 5 years continuing our current policies and you will see Australians
> and Americans emigrate to Eastern Europe because of better
> opportunities. May be it's time you go to some school and learn
> Russian, tovarish....
.... and better learn how to live on $150 a month, that is what
DOCTORS get paid there -if they are lucky.
>
> Sad, really, Australia has so much potential. Why do Governments
> on all levels keep fucking it up?
Governments DON'T - dreamers only THINK they do :-)
But who the hell would want to do all that hard yakka for when they
need only exercise their thumb on the channel changer of their TV,
when the government keeps sending them plenty of money to live on??
They don't do that in Russia you know.
--
SIR -Philosopher Unauthorised
------------------------------------------------------------------
" Don't resent getting old. A great many are denied that privilege "
---------------------------------------------------------------
Michael
to shut up because he has no argument.
What a drongo.
Arovo - go and fuck yourself and wait for the next 500,000 messages which
are offensive to you. I will make sure that each message will cause
maximum offence to you cried your eyes dry.
arovo wrote in message ...
Trying to shut be up?
Don't try that again, boy - WE WARNED!
Duncan Wallace
pick out a post communist country which has made the transition
to market economy in under ten years, been pack raped by the west and whose
population is for the most part destitute and hungry. Crime is rife, the
govt. controlled by mafia and women's position in society back to the dark
ages. (see recent Correspondence Report on SBS).
The poor can wash wars for peanuts and they don't need a
license, so what? The government is not the bogey man here, it is often (as
it's supposed to be) the last defence against the excesses of this corporate
age.
--
Duncan Wallace
jren...@ozemail.com.au
"arovo" <aro...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:frDx6.11$6L1....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
Michael
Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC71131...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>
>
>Michael wrote:
>>
>> I have posted a message claiming we owe the unemployed.
>> The reason for that post is that I have seen overseas a society
>> in which welfare is almost non existent because the country is
>> poor. However, in most of these countries there are much less
>> restrictions when it comes to earn a living.
>
>Read it, didn't like it.
>>
>> Ok, people might say they don't want to live like the Philippinos.
>> In consequence let me suggest to use a society which has more
>> culture, is better educated, and (for the Pauline Hanson supporters)
>> is a white race - the European countries of the former USSR and
>> Eastern block.
>
>I think they are probably better off in the Philippines at the moment.
>The changes to their economic structure were to fast, and not enough
>safety nets. However they didn't really have lot of options from their
>pervious super socialist system that was some motherless broke!
You are talking about Eastern Europe I presume?
In Eastern Europe all changes were too fast. Many people there have told
me that today they understand that Gorbachov would have been the
better choice compared to Yeltsin because Gorbachov wanted to
initiate changes slowly.
The previous bolshevic system wasn't any better than a totalitarian
capitalist state. The ones in power robbed from the rest of the population.
Those poor bastards had no choice before and no choice after....
However, things are improving.
>>
>> People there may paint peoples' houses inside and out or renovate
>> their flat, landscape peoples' gardens and do all sorts of other work
>> without a licence. However, if they do a bodge job they
>> don't get paid. If they do damage they have to repair the damage.
>> If they haven't got the money to repair the damage they are jailed
>> on forced labour and their wages for the labour is used to make good
>> their damage.
>
>Painters don't need a licence here. Gardeners don't need a license
>here. Neither are they entitled to get paid if they do a poor job.
>They too can be held liable for damages they cause. They don't
>necessarily get dumped behind bars for braking a vase in someone's
>house while they are painting the inside of it. That is rather
>draconian to say the least.
Hey, what State do you live in. Im NSW a landscaper needs a licence
because of him possibly making retaining walls. Ok, a Garderner
cutting bushes and moving lawns doen't need a licence either.
Particularly in NSW there is a constant campaign that people should
not have any work done by anyone without a Gold Licence
idemnifying people through the Builder's Board. Here people would
not accep anyone for anything but lawnmoving unless they have
a Gold Licence.
>>
>> People can set up without restrictions car washes in their house and
>> put an advertising sign on their front fence.
>
>They might, but the the USSR has never had anything but a horrible
>reputation for virtual "environmental vandalism", and that car washing
>business IS exactly that, unless you have all the right gear to
>separate the pollutants from the water first before releasing it.
Please don't forget, I made this post for those who recon everyone
can just open their front door and start a business. There was
that fellow who mentioned even a carwash at home.
>>
>> If you earn you are laughing. You can get your car washed in the
>> neighbourhood, you get someone to do jobs around the house
>> quickly and since the competition is big the prices are low and the
>> workmanship is good.
>
>There are a number of enterprising people doing things like that.
>There is even a couple of brothers who hire themselves out as
>"companions" to look after the elderly when they go to the ATM or
>shopping - see them safely to where they need to go and back home
>again. They charge $20/hr for their service.
Sure, but not everyone can do that. If everyone would do that there would be
more carers and elderly....
>>
>> There are no licences required to prepare food. However, if the
>> food is bad and someone gets ill there is big trouble. If someone
>> is poisoned by food the preparer will go to jail for manslaughter.
>> If someone gets sick of the food the preparer again will be jailed for
>> causing grievous bodily harm. This works very well in combination
>> with the fact that being in prison in Australia is a Club Med holiday
>> compared to being in prison there.
>
>Yeah, right.... if they end up in the slammer for poisoning someone, I
>suppose the dead person would like it much.... oh, sorry he wont say
>much - he's dead already. The health regulations are a preventative
>measure, as you can't correct the mistakes -specially if some poor
>bugger died, a bit late then. There are people who think they are
>starting to go a bit overboard with these things.
I am not advocating it should be here the same situation. However,
may either we might have too many restrictions here or we just have
to accept that we have to "pay" for our special protection?
In any case, I did not get ill over there and I have not ever heard
about anyone losing his/her life because they ate food which was
off. I even have not heard about people suffering from food
poisioning like here in Australia when you buy food from the
salad bars in delis or the food poisoning which occured in
Australia despite of the regulations.
May be it has something to do with attitudes in Australia?
I must admit, compared to in Russia or Ukraine today I don't
get any service in any Australian shop or restaurant. Compared
to there shop-staff and waiters in restaurants are extremely
unhelpful.
Mind you, that's just as a comparison. They have different attitudes
over there. They are what they call "accurate" meaning that you are
a total slob is your hair is not totally tidy even in windy conditions
(the coumb their hair every 2 minutes), im a restaurant it is absolutely
abhorrent if a waiter gives you a cup of coffee and the handle of the
cup does not point toward your right hand. That causes complaints to
the manager and a waiter can get the sack over that, women wash the
dishes immediately after a meal because only "pigs" have a flat
in which is does not look like a furniture shop display, ashtrays are
emptied immediately one extinguishes a cigarette....
Actually, Seppo, that sterility can somehow get on your wig....
>
>Certainly it depends on what it is that is being produced. There are
>products you could do at relatively minimal cost outlays.
Correct.
>>
>> Advantage for the earners - you can order the tastiest and most
>> wonderful meals with greatest varieties when you don't feel like
>> cooking. They are delivered hot to your door and cost very little.
>
>It is already being done commercially. Small numbers of customers, and
>all you manage is kiddies pocket money out of it. Larger quantities
>you tend to loose the quality. Then you ARE going to run into problems
>with distribution, wages, awards etc.
I can't judge that here but I must admit that over there it worked quite
well. People don't do things there on a grand scale but they earn
enough just servicing the neighbourhood.
I was really surprised.
>>
>> People can set up street stalls on the roadside where they may
>> sell anything. Many people set up a stall next to a bus stop or
>> a tram stop or near a taxi stand. Most people set up a stall in
>> a place where others set up a stall which produces a big kind of
>> bazaar.
>
>You can here too. They are all over the place. Usually weekly of
>bi-weekly. Some are only monthly.
There they are running every day and almost on every second
street corner.
Again, where do you live? In NSW there are only few designated places,
for everything you need a council permit which costs a fortune
and often yoiu don't get it.
>>
>> Even the local government builds little shelters people can rent
>> but the rent is only a few bucks a week. These shelters are often
>> put near bus and tram stops, at some roadside locations and
>> large vacant public pieces of real estate. In this way the Government
>> provides a large "bazaar".
>
>Ballarat has a huge market weekly. It is run by Ballarat South Rotary
>Club. There are indoor sites with/without power out door sites
>with/without power. Some time since I was there last, but cost of
>stalls ranged from $12 to $17 unpowered and I think up to $30 for
>powered sites. From rental of stalls Ballarat South RC was making a
>1/4 million a year - that also ended up back in the community one way
>or another.
...and why is that not in Sydney and Melbourne.
....and if I want to buy a few really fresh red tomatoes why can't I do
that on Tuesday afternoon and have to waut to Thursday or Saturday
until there is a market? What's wrong with permanency?
>
>There are people who do nothing but travel around a circuit of these
>markets all year round.
>>
>> Advantage for the earners:
>> You can buy a pare or a coke cheap waiting for a bus or a tram.
>> You can buy a quick snack at the bus-stop if you feel hungry.
>> You can leave your flat or house, cross the street and quickly
>> buy some bread, some butter, some biscuits and many other
>> things. When you drive home you can stop on a roadside
>> stall and buy quickly a few tomatoes, apples, whatever you fancy.
>
>You can already do all of that, but you may have to take two or three
>step to do so. You might also have to think about it before you get to
>the bus stop, and hop into a shop on your way.
Ok, why? I found it very convenient to buy a drink at the busstop.
>>
>> Go to the bazaars and you can buy everything your heart desires
>> for only little money. Much of the produce is home grown and all
>> is fresh. None of the produce is grown with chemicals (people can't
>> afford to buy chemicals). You can buy home made jams, home made
>> salty gurkins, home made fermented cabbage (Germans call it
>> sauerkraut) directly out of the vat.
>
>As I said you already CAN, right now.
...but not whenever I want to...?
>
>> You can buy meat. Fishermen
>> come to the bazaar to sell their fish which is fresh just off the boat.
>> Tomatoes are red, they ripened on the bush and in consequence
>> they taste like tomatoes. Fruit ripened on the bush or tree instead
>> of on supermarket shelves.
>
>You will not purchase meat and fish (other than from the wharf) other
>than in permanent recognised markets, where each has a permanent
>"stall", due to health regulations. Fish is a serious problem. You DO
>need a license to fish and sell commercially. Regulation are required
>here.
How come then that nobody gets poisoned there and even in other
countries? Why do people only get poisoned in countries like
USA and Australia?
>
>I have heard of people netting, and they talk about not how many fish,
>but how many DOZEN they get, and one person said he netted 75 DOZEN
>garfish! That is for a family of TWO only. No, I don't think amateur
>fishermen should be allowed ANY nets at all.
Sorry, Seppo, you misunderstood. Those fishermen are not amateurs,
they do it for a living with proper boats.
>No bloody sport in that
>anyway. Secondly it depletes fish stocks, and ruins markets for the
>professionals who are already restricted in their catch sizes for many
>types of fish.
All for the benefit of whom?
>
>The Russians have damned near managed to kill off their Sturgeon in
>the wild and it is now farmed. Their rivers are seriously polluted
>from industry, making restocking of it difficult too. Where they
>manage to do so poaching is depleting them before they grow to a
>proper size...
In the Euopean part of Russia, yes. Mind you, I found no shortage
of Sturgeon Caviar in Ruddia and the Ukraine. In Odessa I paid
12 Grivna = $ AUS 4.- for 250 grams.
>
>> Woolworth, eat your heart out - eat your expensive shit yourself!
>> Those countries are blessed, there is no Woolies or Coles! There
>> is proper and healthy food.
>
>.... FOOD is right, but "healthy"? How do you know? You simply take
>yer chances... me I'd rather purchase a cross lotto ticket that get
>some spoiled foods. Remember they don't have temperatures of 40 deg in
>the water bag either!!
The people there seems to be healthier than us! They are fitter, they
are a lot slimmer and you don't hear about people getting ill anywhere.
Seppom I lived there amonst the locals because i was there for
business purposes. I rented a flat and lived like them.
>
>> There are bazaars where people sell there handicraft and artwork.
>> It is mind-blowing. Tourists flow in just to buy artwork.
>
>You have them here too...
But not of that size and to that extent and what they sell here is often
commercially made in f...ing China.
>>
>> The bazaars became a tourist attraction and provide a lot of
>> income for the people and the country.....
>
>same here....
Are they here listed in tourist pampflets as "must see"?
>>
>> ....whilst in Australia many shops are closed on weekends when the
>> tourists come....
>
>But hang on, you were advocating closing shops earlier, "Those
>countries are blessed, there is no Woolies or Coles"
I don't understand that comment!
Please explain...hahahahahahahaha
>>
>> Now who suffers from that unregulated place?
>> The consumer? No, the consumer gets things at lower
>> prices and gets higher quality than in Australia.
>
>Yes the consumer, as they are at the mercy of whomever happens to feel
>like turning up somewhere with some goods of god only knows what
>quality. There IS a possibility of "lower prices", but that has the
>effect of lower incomes to the sellers/producers - a loss of living
>standards at the same time - further more the safety of food products
>would often be questionable.
Yes, you are right of course. However, insurance costs and, in my humble
view,
the costs should be born by those who benefit and not by others.
I don't agree with the standard of living bit. Low prices go around
everywhere. A breadloaf costs there 6 cents. Flat rent costs $ US 40.-
a month, They earn on average $ US 150 to 200 a month = they have
the same standard of living as us.
Ukrainian women do not wear clothes made in China, they wear only
good Italian and German fashion.
>>
>> The trader? No, because things are cheap people can afford
>> more and the trader makes a good income because he sells
>> more (less profit per peace but higher turnover = more accumulated
>> profit under the line).
>
>Ah, come on! You are talking minuscule volumes here -ie HIGH COST
>production. Whilst your theory is right, fo MASS PRODUCTION and HIGH
>VOLUME sales - you are dead WRONG for a back yard producer.
The cost of production is nit high, we are not talking about TV sets.
>>
>> The Government? May be a little because they miss out on revenue
>> due to licence fees and other charges but the Government saves
>> a lot of welfare and they have more tax revenue. Under the line
>> the Government probably breaks even.
>
>Their greatest loss would be from income taxes and GST revenue loss.
>Then they would have to INCREASE taxes.... making things less
>affordable.... increasing prices... higher wage demands... etc etc
Ok, but why is that not happening there?
>>
>> Big multinationals and big business? Definitely yes! Woolworth
>> and Coles would not be able to compete or would make
>> a lot less profit to the point where they might feel it would
>> not be worthwhile to set up there. The only supermarket
>> chain which can survive there is the German Aldi group.
>
>Both Woollies and Coles would survive very well indeed. The home
>grower of things would break even or get a few cents pocket money out
>of it. You have been watching "The good life" on TV too much.
But why are they not there?
>>
>> Yes, the rip-off merchants cannot survive there! Big business
>> has to compete, they cannot "kick out" the small ones because
>> there are too many of them and the population likes to buy
>> of the small stalls because their produce is fresher and cheaper.
>
>So a store that uses "loss leaders" to attract customers, and only
>makes around 1 to 1.5% profit on the goods, the rest comes from
>renting shelf space, is going to be thrown out by the little people
I did not say that.
>:-)
>
>They better be the fairies at the bottom of the garden with their pots
>of gold :-)
>
>A tomato costs the supermarket say 50 cents - how many tomatoes would
>one of these "back-yard farmers" have to sell to make $450/week? Let
>me tell you - it is 4500 of them, and that is at a 2% mark-up,
>assuming the 50 cents goes to "production costs"!! But lets say it was
>100% profit, and they undercut the supermarket, it STILL amounts to
>225 of them. Do you think a back garden farm will produce that many?
>What will they sell next week, and the week after that?
Ok, your maths looks good but how come that it works there?
>
>> Looking at that I can only say that the Australian business
>> environment is set up to protect the rich and powerful, the speculators
>> and otherwise not productive and useless individuals.
>> Australia protects the "establishment" and keeps others down.
>
>Oh SURE it does.... there are no such things as consumer protection
>Laws... health regulations ensuring safe products only are sold...
>codes of conduct... minimum standards requirements... no, none of that
>exists at all...
Ok, all that protects you. May be we are coming to the point where the
real question is this:
"What is more important, protection or that some have the opportunity
of getting an income?"
I don't know.
>
>> No wonder there is now as much poverty in Australia and the
>> USA as it is in poor Eastern European countries. Give it another
>> 5 years continuing our current policies and you will see Australians
>> and Americans emigrate to Eastern Europe because of better
>> opportunities. May be it's time you go to some school and learn
>> Russian, tovarish....
>
>.... and better learn how to live on $150 a month, that is what
>DOCTORS get paid there -if they are lucky.
I can live there very comfortably on $ 150.- a week!
You must compare cheese with cheese. Your standard of living is
determined by both income vs prices and not only income.
>>
>> Sad, really, Australia has so much potential. Why do Governments
>> on all levels keep fucking it up?
>
>Governments DON'T - dreamers only THINK they do :-)
Don't they?
>
>But who the hell would want to do all that hard yakka for when they
>need only exercise their thumb on the channel changer of their TV,
>when the government keeps sending them plenty of money to live on??
>They don't do that in Russia you know.
That is definitely true!
Seppo Renfors
Michael wrote:
>
> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC71131...@not.ollus.com.au>...
> >
> >
> >Michael wrote:
> >>
> >> I have posted a message claiming we owe the unemployed.
> >> The reason for that post is that I have seen overseas a society
> >> in which welfare is almost non existent because the country is
> >> poor. However, in most of these countries there are much less
> >> restrictions when it comes to earn a living.
> >
> >Read it, didn't like it.
> >>
> >> Ok, people might say they don't want to live like the Philippinos.
> >> In consequence let me suggest to use a society which has more
> >> culture, is better educated, and (for the Pauline Hanson supporters)
> >> is a white race - the European countries of the former USSR and
> >> Eastern block.
> >
> >I think they are probably better off in the Philippines at the moment.
> >The changes to their economic structure were to fast, and not enough
> >safety nets. However they didn't really have lot of options from their
> >pervious super socialist system that was some motherless broke!
>
> You are talking about Eastern Europe I presume?
Former USSR and Russia (as you mentioned - hate to say "communism" as
some wise guy will only argue "they didn't have true communism...")
> In Eastern Europe all changes were too fast. Many people there have told
> me that today they understand that Gorbachov would have been the
> better choice compared to Yeltsin because Gorbachov wanted to
> initiate changes slowly.
>
> The previous bolshevic system wasn't any better than a totalitarian
> capitalist state. The ones in power robbed from the rest of the population.
> Those poor bastards had no choice before and no choice after....
> However, things are improving.
That system is doomed to failure because a human isn't an ant or a
bee. That is the biggest problem - they would have otherwise survived
even the corruption, and that in itself would have become redundant
-IF it could have worked that is.... but that is beside the point.
>
> >>
> >> People there may paint peoples' houses inside and out or renovate
> >> their flat, landscape peoples' gardens and do all sorts of other work
> >> without a licence. However, if they do a bodge job they
> >> don't get paid. If they do damage they have to repair the damage.
> >> If they haven't got the money to repair the damage they are jailed
> >> on forced labour and their wages for the labour is used to make good
> >> their damage.
> >
> >Painters don't need a licence here. Gardeners don't need a license
> >here. Neither are they entitled to get paid if they do a poor job.
> >They too can be held liable for damages they cause. They don't
> >necessarily get dumped behind bars for braking a vase in someone's
> >house while they are painting the inside of it. That is rather
> >draconian to say the least.
>
> Hey, what State do you live in.
SA.
> Im NSW a landscaper needs a licence
> because of him possibly making retaining walls. Ok, a Garderner
> cutting bushes and moving lawns doen't need a licence either.
Sure there has been an extension to licensing here too. Technically a
carpet layer has to have a builders licence, as does a curtain maker.
Both carpets and curtains are supplied in new houses - hence they are
builders :-)
That was the case when they were extending the licenses, I don't know
if they have put a stop to that nonsense now, or people just ignore it
- probably the latter. Certainly some retaining walls require a
builder, others don't - depends on their use, size etc.
> Particularly in NSW there is a constant campaign that people should
> not have any work done by anyone without a Gold Licence
> idemnifying people through the Builder's Board. Here people would
> not accep anyone for anything but lawnmoving unless they have
> a Gold Licence.
Never heard of a "Gold Licence". But have heard of "Gold Credit cards"
:-)
> >> People can set up without restrictions car washes in their house and
> >> put an advertising sign on their front fence.
> >
> >They might, but the the USSR has never had anything but a horrible
> >reputation for virtual "environmental vandalism", and that car washing
> >business IS exactly that, unless you have all the right gear to
> >separate the pollutants from the water first before releasing it.
>
> Please don't forget, I made this post for those who recon everyone
> can just open their front door and start a business. There was
> that fellow who mentioned even a carwash at home.
There are untold number of businesses people CAN do - even from home.
Naturally you cannot open business premises in a residential area -
for obvious reasons. It doesn't mean you need other premises for many
types of businesses. Not far from my place there is an office in a
home, doing million $$ sales from there in wine. The important "tools"
for them are the telephone and fax and a postal service.
> >>
> >> If you earn you are laughing. You can get your car washed in the
> >> neighbourhood, you get someone to do jobs around the house
> >> quickly and since the competition is big the prices are low and the
> >> workmanship is good.
> >
> >There are a number of enterprising people doing things like that.
> >There is even a couple of brothers who hire themselves out as
> >"companions" to look after the elderly when they go to the ATM or
> >shopping - see them safely to where they need to go and back home
> >again. They charge $20/hr for their service.
>
> Sure, but not everyone can do that. If everyone would do that there would be
> more carers and elderly....
These two brothers are in Perth. Don't tell me that cities like
Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane (Adelaide don't need them :-) haven't got
enough people to support several of this kind of service businesses in
each city?
There were two women who started a specialist toilet and bathroom
cleaning service - domestic oriented. They now employ other people in
that business and do commercial premises too. (you know, the places
where staff are "too good" do so, and the bosses end up doing it
themselves)
> >> There are no licences required to prepare food. However, if the
> >> food is bad and someone gets ill there is big trouble. If someone
> >> is poisoned by food the preparer will go to jail for manslaughter.
> >> If someone gets sick of the food the preparer again will be jailed for
> >> causing grievous bodily harm. This works very well in combination
> >> with the fact that being in prison in Australia is a Club Med holiday
> >> compared to being in prison there.
> >
> >Yeah, right.... if they end up in the slammer for poisoning someone, I
> >suppose the dead person would like it much.... oh, sorry he wont say
> >much - he's dead already. The health regulations are a preventative
> >measure, as you can't correct the mistakes -specially if some poor
> >bugger died, a bit late then. There are people who think they are
> >starting to go a bit overboard with these things.
>
> I am not advocating it should be here the same situation. However,
> may either we might have too many restrictions here or we just have
> to accept that we have to "pay" for our special protection?
Either you have regulations or you don't. The trouble with food is you
make so many people sick, some very seriously with one single crook
batch. Public liability insurance for such would be high.
>
> In any case, I did not get ill over there and I have not ever heard
> about anyone losing his/her life because they ate food which was
> off. I even have not heard about people suffering from food
> poisioning like here in Australia when you buy food from the
> salad bars in delis or the food poisoning which occured in
> Australia despite of the regulations.
In SA we had a 4 year old girl die from salmonella poisoning, from
eating Garaboldi salami and many others in hospital - salami I used to
also eat and never got sick from either. Some were touch and go if
they would live or not.
There was the Nippy Orange juice that caused salmonella poisoning as
well. Nobody died from it but quite a number were sick. I'm sure you
can think of more cases closer to home.
The reason you don't hear about it over there is that they don't HAVE
the health inspectors with checking on bacteria cultures in salads.
They also serve different kinds over there. Neither do they have the
same kind of reporting systems in place to find out if there has been
outbreaks of it. After all the most common reaction to salmonella
poisoning is a guts ache and a runny tummy. Such are not uncommon
there either. Also it does depend on personal immune system
development. Living in total sterile environment and you are prone
more to illness because of an under developed immune system.
>
> May be it has something to do with attitudes in Australia?
> I must admit, compared to in Russia or Ukraine today I don't
> get any service in any Australian shop or restaurant. Compared
> to there shop-staff and waiters in restaurants are extremely
> unhelpful.
??? Where the hell were you? Some tourist place? You certainly don't
get that in Moscow from the reports I have seen. Surly old mammas
lazily point you to a ticket machine to take a number. (only 3 people
in the shop) After 10 minutes your number gets called, and you ask for
(whatever), they don't have it but you purchase an alternative
instead. Then you attempt to pay, and get pointed to another area,
with the same surly attitude that hasn't changed, to where you pay.
There you always take a "just in case" bag with you whenever to go
anywhere. It is called that, because just in case you see something in
a shop to buy!! Things are changing in Moscow not, but at the expense
of outlying areas that are being ignored and robbed of funds.
>
> Mind you, that's just as a comparison. They have different attitudes
> over there. They are what they call "accurate" meaning that you are
> a total slob is your hair is not totally tidy even in windy conditions
> (the coumb their hair every 2 minutes), im a restaurant it is absolutely
> abhorrent if a waiter gives you a cup of coffee and the handle of the
> cup does not point toward your right hand.
Bad luck if you're left handed...
> That causes complaints to
> the manager and a waiter can get the sack over that, women wash the
> dishes immediately after a meal because only "pigs" have a flat
> in which is does not look like a furniture shop display, ashtrays are
> emptied immediately one extinguishes a cigarette....
"Manager"??? Hey I thought you were talking about locals, small
enterprises and street vendors. Not luxury hotels.
>
> Actually, Seppo, that sterility can somehow get on your wig....
>
Constant action doesn't always equate to "sterility" :-)
Water that you can keep your hands in is less than 60% C, and a haven
for bacteria to grow in! SO is soap! Then there is "the dish cloth" -
the biggest sinner in most every kitchen. They get used to wipe
anything from dishes, to spills on the floor - they get left in a nice
warm, damp state and left on a cutting board used for food preparation
- and used to wipe the cutting board with.... No apparent cleanliness
certainly is not "sterility".
> >Certainly it depends on what it is that is being produced. There are
> >products you could do at relatively minimal cost outlays.
>
> Correct.
> >>
> >> Advantage for the earners - you can order the tastiest and most
> >> wonderful meals with greatest varieties when you don't feel like
> >> cooking. They are delivered hot to your door and cost very little.
> >
> >It is already being done commercially. Small numbers of customers, and
> >all you manage is kiddies pocket money out of it. Larger quantities
> >you tend to loose the quality. Then you ARE going to run into problems
> >with distribution, wages, awards etc.
>
> I can't judge that here but I must admit that over there it worked quite
> well. People don't do things there on a grand scale but they earn
> enough just servicing the neighbourhood.
Think of it. A good meal can be bought for $5.50 at a market. Pizza
home delivered for $19 to feed 4 with a 1.25 liter bottle of drink
thrown in. How are you going to compete with that?
Many years ago now, in London there was a place that sold stew (well
known place but can't remember the name of it). Nothing but the stew -
no menu - only the stew. There were queues waiting to get in. You sat
wherever there was a bum space on long benches by equally long tables.
The cost of the feed was 25p and no worries you didn't go hungry, and
it was damned good - in comparison a single piece of KFC and small bag
of chips cost 21-24p at the same time. There might be an opportunity
here for something like that. I think they would have been raking in
fortunes there.
>
> I was really surprised.
>
> >>
> >> People can set up street stalls on the roadside where they may
> >> sell anything. Many people set up a stall next to a bus stop or
> >> a tram stop or near a taxi stand. Most people set up a stall in
> >> a place where others set up a stall which produces a big kind of
> >> bazaar.
> >
> >You can here too. They are all over the place. Usually weekly of
> >bi-weekly. Some are only monthly.
>
> There they are running every day and almost on every second
> street corner.
They don't have Coles and Wollies (or equivalent) there do they?
> Again, where do you live? In NSW there are only few designated places,
> for everything you need a council permit which costs a fortune
> and often yoiu don't get it.
Well that's your fault for picking a lousy state to live in :-)
But I'm sure you are wrong. Sydney would have several markets - after
all that is where the shops go at 4 am to purchase their fresh fruit &
veg from. Maybe some Sydneysider can tell us more about that. There
are the so called "trash and treasure markets" all over the place. You
get home produce at those.
> >> Even the local government builds little shelters people can rent
> >> but the rent is only a few bucks a week. These shelters are often
> >> put near bus and tram stops, at some roadside locations and
> >> large vacant public pieces of real estate. In this way the Government
> >> provides a large "bazaar".
> >
> >Ballarat has a huge market weekly. It is run by Ballarat South Rotary
> >Club. There are indoor sites with/without power out door sites
> >with/without power. Some time since I was there last, but cost of
> >stalls ranged from $12 to $17 unpowered and I think up to $30 for
> >powered sites. From rental of stalls Ballarat South RC was making a
> >1/4 million a year - that also ended up back in the community one way
> >or another.
>
> ...and why is that not in Sydney and Melbourne.
I suspect they exist there too - probably in many places. Anyway
Ballarat is only 1 hour out of Melbourne. Melbourne does have a huge
produce market - been there at 6 am (I don't like getting up early)
Adelaide has Central Market - open every day (not sure about Sundays)
and there are other markets dotted around the place.
>
> ....and if I want to buy a few really fresh red tomatoes why can't I do
> that on Tuesday afternoon and have to waut to Thursday or Saturday
> until there is a market? What's wrong with permanency?
...because the tomato was ripe on Monday and no bloody good on
Tuesday! Again this was about back-yard operations. Don't you know
that fruit all ripens at once? One day it is all ripe, next day - make
puree out of it. The Central Market and that kind are seriously
commercial operations.
> >There are people who do nothing but travel around a circuit of these
> >markets all year round.
> >>
> >> Advantage for the earners:
> >> You can buy a pare or a coke cheap waiting for a bus or a tram.
> >> You can buy a quick snack at the bus-stop if you feel hungry.
> >> You can leave your flat or house, cross the street and quickly
> >> buy some bread, some butter, some biscuits and many other
> >> things. When you drive home you can stop on a roadside
> >> stall and buy quickly a few tomatoes, apples, whatever you fancy.
> >
> >You can already do all of that, but you may have to take two or three
> >step to do so. You might also have to think about it before you get to
> >the bus stop, and hop into a shop on your way.
>
> Ok, why? I found it very convenient to buy a drink at the busstop.
Too lazy to take the few steps back to the shop behind you? You would
loose your place in the queue? You didn't mind spilling hot coffee on
you when rattling along in the bus?
> >> Go to the bazaars and you can buy everything your heart desires
> >> for only little money. Much of the produce is home grown and all
> >> is fresh. None of the produce is grown with chemicals (people can't
> >> afford to buy chemicals). You can buy home made jams, home made
> >> salty gurkins, home made fermented cabbage (Germans call it
> >> sauerkraut) directly out of the vat.
> >
> >As I said you already CAN, right now.
>
> ...but not whenever I want to...?
A recent study indicated that people no longer do a "weekly shop" but
are purchasing daily requirements. So they do manage daily even here.
Learn to PLAN :-)
> >
> >> You can buy meat. Fishermen
> >> come to the bazaar to sell their fish which is fresh just off the boat.
> >> Tomatoes are red, they ripened on the bush and in consequence
> >> they taste like tomatoes. Fruit ripened on the bush or tree instead
> >> of on supermarket shelves.
> >
> >You will not purchase meat and fish (other than from the wharf) other
> >than in permanent recognised markets, where each has a permanent
> >"stall", due to health regulations. Fish is a serious problem. You DO
> >need a license to fish and sell commercially. Regulation are required
> >here.
>
> How come then that nobody gets poisoned there and even in other
> countries? Why do people only get poisoned in countries like
> USA and Australia?
It isn't about that, but preservation of fish stock. A sustainable
harvesting issue.
>
> >
> >I have heard of people netting, and they talk about not how many fish,
> >but how many DOZEN they get, and one person said he netted 75 DOZEN
> >garfish! That is for a family of TWO only. No, I don't think amateur
> >fishermen should be allowed ANY nets at all.
>
> Sorry, Seppo, you misunderstood. Those fishermen are not amateurs,
> they do it for a living with proper boats.
Damned right it was an amateur with nothing more that a 15 footer! He
lived (recently died) up the road a bit. There are many with boats and
nets - though they are now being curtailed, last I heard, only allowed
two 75 ft nets - should be banned totally and may have been since.
There are also bag limits - per boat and/or person - depending on
species. Fishing is the most popular recreational sport there is in
Australia.
> >No bloody sport in that
> >anyway. Secondly it depletes fish stocks, and ruins markets for the
> >professionals who are already restricted in their catch sizes for many
> >types of fish.
>
> All for the benefit of whom?
For everyone. What is the point of fishing to a total depletion?
Nothing for professionals OR amateurs then.
> >The Russians have damned near managed to kill off their Sturgeon in
> >the wild and it is now farmed. Their rivers are seriously polluted
> >from industry, making restocking of it difficult too. Where they
> >manage to do so poaching is depleting them before they grow to a
> >proper size...
>
> In the Euopean part of Russia, yes. Mind you, I found no shortage
> of Sturgeon Caviar in Ruddia and the Ukraine. In Odessa I paid
> 12 Grivna = $ AUS 4.- for 250 grams.
Much overrated muck in any case. Don't like it. Give me ordinary Cod
roe instead in a nice mixture of a mayonnaise of some sort... can be
purchased here. It comes in like toothpaste tubes and costs about
$6.25 a tube.
Why would they sell the caviar internally for? They get some $US
140/kg for exporting it (there must be a lot of mugs in the world).
They are also desperate for foreign currency.
> >> Woolworth, eat your heart out - eat your expensive shit yourself!
> >> Those countries are blessed, there is no Woolies or Coles! There
> >> is proper and healthy food.
> >
> >.... FOOD is right, but "healthy"? How do you know? You simply take
> >yer chances... me I'd rather purchase a cross lotto ticket that get
> >some spoiled foods. Remember they don't have temperatures of 40 deg in
> >the water bag either!!
>
> The people there seems to be healthier than us! They are fitter, they
> are a lot slimmer and you don't hear about people getting ill anywhere.
"Seems" is the operative word. "Slimmer" means they eat less - work
harder!! You don't see them when they are sick - they stay home and
out of sight. What is their life expectancy there?
> Seppo I lived there amonst the locals because i was there for
> business purposes. I rented a flat and lived like them.
Sure, why not. Mate of mine, an Aussie who was a cop in Hong Kong,
lived in a flat too (in the rich area, it was provided as part of the
job) He went across to the markets where the locals shopped, and ate
there and bought his food there. I can't recall him complaining of
anything other than the occasional guts ache (that he blamed on the
spices).
> >> There are bazaars where people sell there handicraft and artwork.
> >> It is mind-blowing. Tourists flow in just to buy artwork.
> >
> >You have them here too...
>
> But not of that size and to that extent and what they sell here is often
> commercially made in f...ing China.
Of course you have the junk side as well. But there is an amazing
amount of jewellery made right here by local small time artisans.
There are art and crafts like pottery, musical instruments, sculpture
toys etc etc... all locally made. There are arts festivals all over
the place, paintings sculptures etc. You need to get out a bit more,
have a look around - its there.
> >> The bazaars became a tourist attraction and provide a lot of
> >> income for the people and the country.....
> >
> >same here....
>
> Are they here listed in tourist pampflets as "must see"?
Yes. And this weekend there is a big food and produce festival in the
Barossa - also in the brochures. Not to mention the Adelaide 500 - for
the tin-top V8's.
>
> >>
> >> ....whilst in Australia many shops are closed on weekends when the
> >> tourists come....
> >
> >But hang on, you were advocating closing shops earlier, "Those
> >countries are blessed, there is no Woolies or Coles"
>
> I don't understand that comment!
> Please explain...hahahahahahahaha
:-)
>
> >>
> >> Now who suffers from that unregulated place?
> >> The consumer? No, the consumer gets things at lower
> >> prices and gets higher quality than in Australia.
> >
> >Yes the consumer, as they are at the mercy of whomever happens to feel
> >like turning up somewhere with some goods of god only knows what
> >quality. There IS a possibility of "lower prices", but that has the
> >effect of lower incomes to the sellers/producers - a loss of living
> >standards at the same time - further more the safety of food products
> >would often be questionable.
>
> Yes, you are right of course. However, insurance costs and, in my humble
> view,
> the costs should be born by those who benefit and not by others.
Ahhh... glad you mentioned that - insurance is a MUST for the
back-yard producer too. The "benefit" is the sellers, as they derive
their 'living' from it.
>
> I don't agree with the standard of living bit. Low prices go around
> everywhere. A breadloaf costs there 6 cents. Flat rent costs $ US 40.-
> a month, They earn on average $ US 150 to 200 a month = they have
> the same standard of living as us.
Hang on, we are talking about back-yard producers here in Australia.
You don't have the opportunity to lower the prices here. No union is
going to agree to cutting wages. SO what you have is a puny income and
normal costs otherwise. A few home producers - who couldn't sustain
themselves from it anyway will no alter any cost structures.
>
> Ukrainian women do not wear clothes made in China, they wear only
> good Italian and German fashion.
Hey, not everything from either Italy or Germany is "good quality".
They both have mass produced goods, some better than others - and so
varies the price too. Should have a peek into Beneton's factory (the
clothing - not the race car). Not a hell of a lot of people work there
you know. Automated and computerised to the hilt!
> >> The trader? No, because things are cheap people can afford
> >> more and the trader makes a good income because he sells
> >> more (less profit per peace but higher turnover = more accumulated
> >> profit under the line).
> >
> >Ah, come on! You are talking minuscule volumes here -ie HIGH COST
> >production. Whilst your theory is right, fo MASS PRODUCTION and HIGH
> >VOLUME sales - you are dead WRONG for a back yard producer.
>
> The cost of production is not high, we are not talking about TV sets.
It doesn't matter WHAT it is. If you grow only 20 tomato plants and
expect to make a living from that - it is HIGH. The same ONE person
can grow an acre of them - the cost is low (in comparison).
> >> The Government? May be a little because they miss out on revenue
> >> due to licence fees and other charges but the Government saves
> >> a lot of welfare and they have more tax revenue. Under the line
> >> the Government probably breaks even.
> >
> >Their greatest loss would be from income taxes and GST revenue loss.
> >Then they would have to INCREASE taxes.... making things less
> >affordable.... increasing prices... higher wage demands... etc etc
>
> Ok, but why is that not happening there?
It is.
> >> Big multinationals and big business? Definitely yes! Woolworth
> >> and Coles would not be able to compete or would make
> >> a lot less profit to the point where they might feel it would
> >> not be worthwhile to set up there. The only supermarket
> >> chain which can survive there is the German Aldi group.
> >
> >Both Woollies and Coles would survive very well indeed. The home
> >grower of things would break even or get a few cents pocket money out
> >of it. You have been watching "The good life" on TV too much.
>
> But why are they not there?
Because there was no free enterprise, and only the government could
own such. They seemed to have weird ways of doing things. Self Service
was not popular as it reduced worker numbers required. After all the
government decided what job you were going to do, and it was up to
them to allocate jobs to people - they needed the positions. Part of
why the system fell in a hole. Though I suspect major cities probably
did have them.
> >> Yes, the rip-off merchants cannot survive there! Big business
> >> has to compete, they cannot "kick out" the small ones because
> >> there are too many of them and the population likes to buy
> >> of the small stalls because their produce is fresher and cheaper.
> >
> >So a store that uses "loss leaders" to attract customers, and only
> >makes around 1 to 1.5% profit on the goods, the rest comes from
> >renting shelf space, is going to be thrown out by the little people
> >:-)
>
> I did not say that.
I'm pointing to WHY it can't happen. But take note that speciality
stores live happily next to supermarkets - in fact require the
supermarkets to bring them the customers.
> >They better be the fairies at the bottom of the garden with their pots
> >of gold :-)
> >
> >A tomato costs the supermarket say 50 cents - how many tomatoes would
> >one of these "back-yard farmers" have to sell to make $450/week? Let
> >me tell you - it is 4500 of them, and that is at a 2% mark-up,
> >assuming the 50 cents goes to "production costs"!! But lets say it was
> >100% profit, and they undercut the supermarket, it STILL amounts to
> >225 of them. Do you think a back garden farm will produce that many?
> >What will they sell next week, and the week after that?
>
> Ok, your maths looks good but how come that it works there?
The people you see selling on the streets are professional growers and
market gardeners, same as here - not a back-yard grower.
>
> >
> >> Looking at that I can only say that the Australian business
> >> environment is set up to protect the rich and powerful, the speculators
> >> and otherwise not productive and useless individuals.
> >> Australia protects the "establishment" and keeps others down.
> >
> >Oh SURE it does.... there are no such things as consumer protection
> >Laws... health regulations ensuring safe products only are sold...
> >codes of conduct... minimum standards requirements... no, none of that
> >exists at all...
>
> Ok, all that protects you. May be we are coming to the point where the
> real question is this:
> "What is more important, protection or that some have the opportunity
> of getting an income?"
>
> I don't know.
Look at it this way. You as a person cannot cause harm to another - or
you will be liable for that harm. That is what health regulations and
licensing is about - to keep track of businesses, to check on that
they are not "causing harm to another". Again it is preventative
measures - and enabling measures to seek compensation when wrong has
been done. This is missing over there to a large degree.
> >> No wonder there is now as much poverty in Australia and the
> >> USA as it is in poor Eastern European countries. Give it another
> >> 5 years continuing our current policies and you will see Australians
> >> and Americans emigrate to Eastern Europe because of better
> >> opportunities. May be it's time you go to some school and learn
> >> Russian, tovarish....
> >
> >.... and better learn how to live on $150 a month, that is what
> >DOCTORS get paid there -if they are lucky.
>
> I can live there very comfortably on $ 150.- a week!
That was a MONTH - not a week. The figure is a recent figure at that.
>
> You must compare cheese with cheese. Your standard of living is
> determined by both income vs prices and not only income.
No, it is far more than that. It also includes Services and social
benefits. Something that is missing over there.
>
> >>
> >> Sad, really, Australia has so much potential. Why do Governments
> >> on all levels keep fucking it up?
> >
> >Governments DON'T - dreamers only THINK they do :-)
>
> Don't they?
No they don't. You may disagree with the way they do things, but that
doesn't mean "government stuffs it up". There are often a number of
ways that achieves the same outcome - it is the METHOD people often
object to, not the outcome. Certainly I would suggest your ideas here
about unravelling and dissolving consumer protection would "stuff up"
things big time - and nobody would give such ideas enough votes to win
government with.
Anyway to blame "the government" is really blaming yourself - because
of the government we have. It is invalid to say "I didn't vote for
them", as you COULD have done more to prevent them getting elected -
like stand yourself, lobby politicians with your ideas - organise and
form pressure groups..... but if you don't get popular support, you
KNOW you are backing the wrong horse.
> >But who the hell would want to do all that hard yakka for when they
> >need only exercise their thumb on the channel changer of their TV,
> >when the government keeps sending them plenty of money to live on??
> >They don't do that in Russia you know.
>
> That is definitely true!
--
Michael
Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC88760...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>
>
>Michael wrote:
>>
>> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC71131...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>> >
>> >
>> >Michael wrote:
>> >>
>> >I think they are probably better off in the Philippines at the moment.
>> >The changes to their economic structure were to fast, and not enough
>> >safety nets. However they didn't really have lot of options from their
>> >pervious super socialist system that was some motherless broke!
>>
>> You are talking about Eastern Europe I presume?
Yes, I do because I want to look at a society and culture more like
the "Australian/European" culture rather than trying to compare
us with an Asian culture which probably developed differently.
Mind you, when I went into that area to engage in some business
hence meeting a lot of people I found that time a big eye-opener.
>
>Former USSR and Russia (as you mentioned - hate to say "communism" as
>some wise guy will only argue "they didn't have true communism...")
Whilst being anything but a communist I have to agree with the notion
that what they had was not communism in it's pure (theoretical)
form.
Mind you, pure communism is an idiotic ideas anyway because it goes
against human nature anyway.
>
>> In Eastern Europe all changes were too fast. Many people there have told
>> me that today they understand that Gorbachov would have been the
>> better choice compared to Yeltsin because Gorbachov wanted to
>> initiate changes slowly.
>>
>> The previous bolshevic system wasn't any better than a totalitarian
>> capitalist state. The ones in power robbed from the rest of the
population.
>> Those poor bastards had no choice before and no choice after....
>> However, things are improving.
>
>That system is doomed to failure because a human isn't an ant or a
>bee. That is the biggest problem - they would have otherwise survived
>even the corruption, and that in itself would have become redundant
>-IF it could have worked that is.... but that is beside the point.
I totally agree. You hit the nail on the head. I understand the system used
to attempt to make people like working bees or ants being squashed
as soon as they stepped out of line.
>>
>> >>
>> >> People there may paint peoples' houses inside and out or renovate
>> >> their flat, landscape peoples' gardens and do all sorts of other work
>> >> without a licence. However, if they do a bodge job they
>> >> don't get paid. If they do damage they have to repair the damage.
>> >> If they haven't got the money to repair the damage they are jailed
>> >> on forced labour and their wages for the labour is used to make good
>> >> their damage.
>> >
>> >Painters don't need a licence here. Gardeners don't need a license
>> >here. Neither are they entitled to get paid if they do a poor job.
>> >They too can be held liable for damages they cause. They don't
>> >necessarily get dumped behind bars for braking a vase in someone's
>> >house while they are painting the inside of it. That is rather
>> >draconian to say the least.
>>
>> Hey, what State do you live in.
>
>SA.
Is that ok in SA? Bloody NSW has all sorts of restrictions.
Now cop this. I was contemplating to get a piece of land and build
a commercial premis at our local airport (owned by the council).
The land was designated for commercial use only. Would you believe,
the council only issued building permits with the providion that no
large company signs advertising the name of the company or what
services they provide anywhere on, next to or in from of the premis.
They said it would be "visual pollution". The only thing allowed is a
sign max. 1 m x 1 m, bot illuminated, next to the entry door.
Obviosuly no company set up there....
Another goody-goody is this. A fellow in the neighbourhood who lost
his job started to custom build furniture and sold it by advertisement.
His place is in a residential area. He got a bloody rude letter from
the council (some neighbours complained) because every day
once or twice a truck from TNT picked up goods. He was threatened
with a fine for conducting a business in a residential area.
Another bloke has a ute. He lost his job and he bought from the
markets fresh vegies and fruit, put it on the ute and sold the stuff
door to door. The police approached him an asked him for some
kind of a licence he did not have because he was not aware of
the need sor a licence. He was fined.
A woman had the idea to prepare food at home and advertise
that people can have the foor home delivered (like pizzas).
Her husband, who lost his job, would deliver the meals.
When she asked for the health regulations she was told that the
health regulations are not the only problem. She was told that
she cannot do this in her house because she lives in an area
zoned "residential" and in such a zone people cannot put up
with a delivery car constantly arriving and leaving.....
May be SA is a bit of a paradise?
>
>> Im NSW a landscaper needs a licence
>> because of him possibly making retaining walls. Ok, a Garderner
>> cutting bushes and moving lawns doen't need a licence either.
>
>Sure there has been an extension to licensing here too. Technically a
>carpet layer has to have a builders licence, as does a curtain maker.
>Both carpets and curtains are supplied in new houses - hence they are
>builders :-)
What about laying carpets or making curtains in existing houses?
>
>That was the case when they were extending the licenses, I don't know
>if they have put a stop to that nonsense now, or people just ignore it
>- probably the latter. Certainly some retaining walls require a
>builder, others don't - depends on their use, size etc.
Exactly.
>
>> Particularly in NSW there is a constant campaign that people should
>> not have any work done by anyone without a Gold Licence
>> idemnifying people through the Builder's Board. Here people would
>> not accep anyone for anything but lawnmoving unless they have
>> a Gold Licence.
>
>Never heard of a "Gold Licence". But have heard of "Gold Credit cards"
No, here builders and such like get a "Gold Licence" from some "Builders'
Licencing Board" and if a builder does crappy work or doesn't finish
the work then there is an insurance which compensates you.
I guess the law was made to protect existing builders?
>:-)
>
>> >> People can set up without restrictions car washes in their house and
>> >> put an advertising sign on their front fence.
>> >
>> >They might, but the the USSR has never had anything but a horrible
>> >reputation for virtual "environmental vandalism", and that car washing
>> >business IS exactly that, unless you have all the right gear to
>> >separate the pollutants from the water first before releasing it.
>>
>> Please don't forget, I made this post for those who recon everyone
>> can just open their front door and start a business. There was
>> that fellow who mentioned even a carwash at home.
>
>There are untold number of businesses people CAN do - even from home.
>Naturally you cannot open business premises in a residential area -
>for obvious reasons. It doesn't mean you need other premises for many
>types of businesses. Not far from my place there is an office in a
>home, doing million $$ sales from there in wine. The important "tools"
>for them are the telephone and fax and a postal service.
You are correct. What I was on about was simply that not all people
have the connections, the expertise and in many cases not the initial
outlay to start.
You see, I am not living in Sydney but in a NSW regional centre.
In the area a lot of business went "belly up" or they centralised
to Sydney. so there is "FA" employment. Those who still have
a job are worried and keep their wallets closed. They just but food
and clothing only when their old clothes basically fall off their bodies.
The only non-food item people buy are things like hair cutters so that
mum can cut hubby's and the kids hair, saves going to the hairdresser.
In the supermarkets the more fancy goods disappeared because people
did not buy them. I love the black European bread and these days
I have to travel to a big city to buy it. In the main street 1/4 of the
shops
are empty and for lease. Landlords just can't find anyone to rent a shop.
If my business would rely on the area I live in I would be out of
business a long time ago. For me it is quite good to operate and
live here because it is cheap (you get a good house on good land
for $ 75,000, you can rent office space now (3 large rooms, fully
self contained) for $ 400.- per calender month and the supermarkets
are about 20% cheaper than anywhere else. Even the petrol is
as cheap as in Sydney itself.
>
>> >There are a number of enterprising people doing things like that.
>> >There is even a couple of brothers who hire themselves out as
>> >"companions" to look after the elderly when they go to the ATM or
>> >shopping - see them safely to where they need to go and back home
>> >again. They charge $20/hr for their service.
>>
>> Sure, but not everyone can do that. If everyone would do that there would
be
>> more carers and elderly....
>
>These two brothers are in Perth. Don't tell me that cities like
>Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane (Adelaide don't need them :-) haven't got
>enough people to support several of this kind of service businesses in
>each city?
Melbourne and Sydney yes, Brisbane I am not too sure. Regional centre -
forget it. However, the highest unemployment is in regional centres.
>
>There were two women who started a specialist toilet and bathroom
>cleaning service - domestic oriented. They now employ other people in
>that business and do commercial premises too. (you know, the places
>where staff are "too good" do so, and the bosses end up doing it
>themselves)
The big cities, yes. In regional centres some of these business were
established but they went bust because people do it all themselves
to save money.
>
(snip)
>> In any case, I did not get ill over there and I have not ever heard
>> about anyone losing his/her life because they ate food which was
>> off. I even have not heard about people suffering from food
>> poisioning like here in Australia when you buy food from the
>> salad bars in delis or the food poisoning which occured in
>> Australia despite of the regulations.
>
>In SA we had a 4 year old girl die from salmonella poisoning, from
>eating Garaboldi salami and many others in hospital - salami I used to
>also eat and never got sick from either. Some were touch and go if
>they would live or not.
>
>There was the Nippy Orange juice that caused salmonella poisoning as
>well. Nobody died from it but quite a number were sick. I'm sure you
>can think of more cases closer to home.
>
>The reason you don't hear about it over there is that they don't HAVE
>the health inspectors with checking on bacteria cultures in salads.
>They also serve different kinds over there. Neither do they have the
>same kind of reporting systems in place to find out if there has been
>outbreaks of it. After all the most common reaction to salmonella
>poisoning is a guts ache and a runny tummy. Such are not uncommon
>there either. Also it does depend on personal immune system
>development. Living in total sterile environment and you are prone
>more to illness because of an under developed immune system.
Seppo, what bugs me somehow is this:
Why does it work in other countries but not in Australia and similar
countries? What are we doing differently or what are we doing wrong?
It just doesn't make sense?
Are we too sloppy? Is it our attitude that we are more prepared to
sell food which is off and don't care?
I don't know the answer but I find it somehow odd that it works
somewhere else but not here?!
>>
>> May be it has something to do with attitudes in Australia?
>> I must admit, compared to in Russia or Ukraine today I don't
>> get any service in any Australian shop or restaurant. Compared
>> to there shop-staff and waiters in restaurants are extremely
>> unhelpful.
>
>??? Where the hell were you? Some tourist place? You certainly don't
>get that in Moscow from the reports I have seen. Surly old mammas
>lazily point you to a ticket machine to take a number. (only 3 people
>in the shop) After 10 minutes your number gets called, and you ask for
>(whatever), they don't have it but you purchase an alternative
>instead. Then you attempt to pay, and get pointed to another area,
>with the same surly attitude that hasn't changed, to where you pay.
I stayed in Odessa for three month on business three times and
I had to travel to Kiev, Vinnitsa, then to Moscow, St. Petersburg
as well as to several other provincial cities.
You see, I had to buy a few aeroplanes there (I got two YAK 52 trainer
which was mothballed for $ US 5,200 each would you believe....)
I never had these experiences. I must admit that things were slower
in Moscow and St. Petersburg but I was surprised about the
services and attention I got anywhere else.
>
>There you always take a "just in case" bag with you whenever to go
>anywhere. It is called that, because just in case you see something in
>a shop to buy!! Things are changing in Moscow not, but at the expense
>of outlying areas that are being ignored and robbed of funds.
I never had that experience. Mind you, I went to that area the first
time only in 1998.
Last time I was there (November) I found that life in Russia seems to
improve
a lot.
>>
>> Mind you, that's just as a comparison. They have different attitudes
>> over there. They are what they call "accurate" meaning that you are
>> a total slob is your hair is not totally tidy even in windy conditions
>> (the coumb their hair every 2 minutes), im a restaurant it is absolutely
>> abhorrent if a waiter gives you a cup of coffee and the handle of the
>> cup does not point toward your right hand.
>
>Bad luck if you're left handed...
Hahahahahaha! Good thought!
>
>> That causes complaints to
>> the manager and a waiter can get the sack over that, women wash the
>> dishes immediately after a meal because only "pigs" have a flat
>> in which is does not look like a furniture shop display, ashtrays are
>> emptied immediately one extinguishes a cigarette....
>
>"Manager"??? Hey I thought you were talking about locals, small
>enterprises and street vendors. Not luxury hotels.
No, restaurants employing a few waiters. Most of the small restaurants
I went to seem to have between one and three waiters employed.
>>
>> Actually, Seppo, that sterility can somehow get on your wig....
>>
>Constant action doesn't always equate to "sterility" :-)
No, but it's just too much. When I visited people in their homes
I didn't dare initially to sit down or touch anything. Their flats
or houses looked like a showroom.
Mind you, I must admit that after a few vodkas I lost my inhibitions....
>
>Water that you can keep your hands in is less than 60% C, and a haven
>for bacteria to grow in! SO is soap! Then there is "the dish cloth" -
>the biggest sinner in most every kitchen. They get used to wipe
>anything from dishes, to spills on the floor - they get left in a nice
>warm, damp state and left on a cutting board used for food preparation
>- and used to wipe the cutting board with.... No apparent cleanliness
>certainly is not "sterility".
In the flat I lived in in Odessa I burned my fingers under the hot water tap
(hot water is supplied centrally). Mind you, I noticed that most people
wiped
all surfaces and used proper cleaning materials like us (unfortuantelly
most of the stuff seems to be imported from Germany - I would have
liked to see more Australian goods there). They all put the towels
and other cleaning cloth on the funny central heating radiators in the
kitchen.
>
>Think of it. A good meal can be bought for $5.50 at a market. Pizza
>home delivered for $19 to feed 4 with a 1.25 liter bottle of drink
>thrown in. How are you going to compete with that?
I think you could. I think if you cook a good size of topside,
some potatoes and vegies you could sell one meal easily
for $ 5.50 and make a profit.
>
>Many years ago now, in London there was a place that sold stew (well
>known place but can't remember the name of it). Nothing but the stew -
>no menu - only the stew. There were queues waiting to get in. You sat
>wherever there was a bum space on long benches by equally long tables.
>The cost of the feed was 25p and no worries you didn't go hungry, and
>it was damned good - in comparison a single piece of KFC and small bag
>of chips cost 21-24p at the same time. There might be an opportunity
>here for something like that. I think they would have been raking in
>fortunes there.
Good point!
>>
>> I was really surprised.
>>
>> >>
>> >> People can set up street stalls on the roadside where they may
>> >> sell anything. Many people set up a stall next to a bus stop or
>> >> a tram stop or near a taxi stand. Most people set up a stall in
>> >> a place where others set up a stall which produces a big kind of
>> >> bazaar.
>> >
>> >You can here too. They are all over the place. Usually weekly of
>> >bi-weekly. Some are only monthly.
>>
>> There they are running every day and almost on every second
>> street corner.
>
>They don't have Coles and Wollies (or equivalent) there do they?
No, these big fellows seem to be either desinterested or did not go
there yet. I have seen the German ALDI market there (which is setting
up in Australia now too). They are extremely cheap.
The "supermarkets" I have seen there looked to me more than a
very large size milk bar.
Mind you, when you buy things on the market the stuff is that cheap that
I think the large supermarket chains could not compete because they
would not get enough return on their investment at the moment.
However, that could change in the future.
>
>> Again, where do you live? In NSW there are only few designated places,
>> for everything you need a council permit which costs a fortune
>> and often yoiu don't get it.
>
>Well that's your fault for picking a lousy state to live in :-)
>But I'm sure you are wrong. Sydney would have several markets - after
>all that is where the shops go at 4 am to purchase their fresh fruit &
>veg from. Maybe some Sydneysider can tell us more about that. There
>are the so called "trash and treasure markets" all over the place. You
>get home produce at those.
Yes, Sydney has a fe markets but not the permanent thing as far as
I am aware of.
>I suspect they exist there too - probably in many places. Anyway
>Ballarat is only 1 hour out of Melbourne. Melbourne does have a huge
>produce market - been there at 6 am (I don't like getting up early)
>Adelaide has Central Market - open every day (not sure about Sundays)
>and there are other markets dotted around the place.
I have got the impression that Adelaide is not a bad place to live?!
>>
>> ....and if I want to buy a few really fresh red tomatoes why can't I do
>> that on Tuesday afternoon and have to waut to Thursday or Saturday
>> until there is a market? What's wrong with permanency?
>
>...because the tomato was ripe on Monday and no bloody good on
>Tuesday! Again this was about back-yard operations. Don't you know
>that fruit all ripens at once? One day it is all ripe, next day - make
>puree out of it. The Central Market and that kind are seriously
>commercial operations.
I know what you mean but what I enjoyed was that people only
sold the good stuff.
>
>> >There are people who do nothing but travel around a circuit of these
>> >markets all year round.
>> >>
>> >> Advantage for the earners:
>> >> You can buy a pare or a coke cheap waiting for a bus or a tram.
>> >> You can buy a quick snack at the bus-stop if you feel hungry.
>> >> You can leave your flat or house, cross the street and quickly
>> >> buy some bread, some butter, some biscuits and many other
>> >> things. When you drive home you can stop on a roadside
>> >> stall and buy quickly a few tomatoes, apples, whatever you fancy.
>> >
>> >You can already do all of that, but you may have to take two or three
>> >step to do so. You might also have to think about it before you get to
>> >the bus stop, and hop into a shop on your way.
>>
>> Ok, why? I found it very convenient to buy a drink at the busstop.
>
>Too lazy to take the few steps back to the shop behind you? You would
>loose your place in the queue? You didn't mind spilling hot coffee on
>you when rattling along in the bus?
Yes, particularly if it could provide someone else with an income which
in the end saves me taxes for welfare?
I don't buy coffee to drink in the bus, I buy an appropriate drink.
>
>> >> Go to the bazaars and you can buy everything your heart desires
>> >> for only little money. Much of the produce is home grown and all
>> >> is fresh. None of the produce is grown with chemicals (people can't
>> >> afford to buy chemicals). You can buy home made jams, home made
>> >> salty gurkins, home made fermented cabbage (Germans call it
>> >> sauerkraut) directly out of the vat.
>> >
>> >As I said you already CAN, right now.
>>
>> ...but not whenever I want to...?
>
>A recent study indicated that people no longer do a "weekly shop" but
>are purchasing daily requirements. So they do manage daily even here.
>Learn to PLAN :-)
Why? Just to protect existing business from open slatter competition?
>
>> >
(snip)
>> How come then that nobody gets poisoned there and even in other
>> countries? Why do people only get poisoned in countries like
>> USA and Australia?
>
>It isn't about that, but preservation of fish stock. A sustainable
>harvesting issue.
But how come that it works with countries which got a lot more
population and less fish stocks?
I just can't work that out! Surely Australians are not dumber or
more ignorant than others?
>>
>> >
>> >I have heard of people netting, and they talk about not how many fish,
>> >but how many DOZEN they get, and one person said he netted 75 DOZEN
>> >garfish! That is for a family of TWO only. No, I don't think amateur
>> >fishermen should be allowed ANY nets at all.
>>
>> Sorry, Seppo, you misunderstood. Those fishermen are not amateurs,
>> they do it for a living with proper boats.
>
>Damned right it was an amateur with nothing more that a 15 footer! He
>lived (recently died) up the road a bit. There are many with boats and
>nets - though they are now being curtailed, last I heard, only allowed
>two 75 ft nets - should be banned totally and may have been since.
>There are also bag limits - per boat and/or person - depending on
>species. Fishing is the most popular recreational sport there is in
>Australia.
I wasn't talking about Australia.
>
>> >No bloody sport in that
>> >anyway. Secondly it depletes fish stocks, and ruins markets for the
>> >professionals who are already restricted in their catch sizes for many
>> >types of fish.
>>
>> All for the benefit of whom?
>
>For everyone. What is the point of fishing to a total depletion?
>Nothing for professionals OR amateurs then.
But why does it all work in other countries?
>
>> >The Russians have damned near managed to kill off their Sturgeon in
>> >the wild and it is now farmed. Their rivers are seriously polluted
>> >from industry, making restocking of it difficult too. Where they
>> >manage to do so poaching is depleting them before they grow to a
>> >proper size...
>>
>> In the Euopean part of Russia, yes. Mind you, I found no shortage
>> of Sturgeon Caviar in Ruddia and the Ukraine. In Odessa I paid
>> 12 Grivna = $ AUS 4.- for 250 grams.
>
>Much overrated muck in any case. Don't like it. Give me ordinary Cod
>roe instead in a nice mixture of a mayonnaise of some sort... can be
>purchased here. It comes in like toothpaste tubes and costs about
>$6.25 a tube.
I liked it but yes, it is over-rated. Mind you, black bread with butter
and caviar and a good bottle of Odessa or Crimea champagne
go down rather well.
The Ukrainian wodka (with some kind of a plant looking like a chilli
inside) tasts terrific. I wonder why the bastards don't export that stuff.
I liked more food like minced and spiced chicken mince cooked
wrapped in cabbage leafs. Mind you, it makes you fart like a foghorn....
>
>Why would they sell the caviar internally for? They get some $US
>140/kg for exporting it (there must be a lot of mugs in the world).
>They are also desperate for foreign currency.
I understand that they have some law that some percentage of local
produce must be sold inside the country at a price the people can
afford. Somebody mentioned that to me.
I'm not quite sure how that works. I only paid for a bottle of Crimea
champagne 14 Grivna in Odessa ($ 4.60) and in germany the same
bottle costs about DM 60 = approx. $ AUS 60.
>> The people there seems to be healthier than us! They are fitter, they
>> are a lot slimmer and you don't hear about people getting ill anywhere.
>
>"Seems" is the operative word. "Slimmer" means they eat less - work
>harder!! You don't see them when they are sick - they stay home and
>out of sight. What is their life expectancy there?
I don't have the impression they eat much less. I found that they eat
a hot meal when we have lunch and only workers coming home
in the evening eat warm in the evening.
Yes, you are right, they work a lot harder.
I have seen a lot of old people and I have met some (parents of people
I had to deal with). I was quite surprised. In many areas they get very
old apparently. The funny thing is that 80 years old still work on a piece
of land and most oldies live happily without homecare services.
I don't know the average life expentancy but I was told most get very old.
There are a lot of 80 years old people and, embarrassing enough, I was
even told that most of them still "root like rabbits". Hahahaha
May be it's the food? They eat a lot of fatty fish (Omega 3 acids) and
Ukrainians use very little fat for cooking in contrast to Russians.
I must admit that I love the Ukrainian or Azerbayan food but I don't
like the Russian food that much.
>
>> Seppo I lived there amonst the locals because i was there for
>> business purposes. I rented a flat and lived like them.
>
>Sure, why not. Mate of mine, an Aussie who was a cop in Hong Kong,
>lived in a flat too (in the rich area, it was provided as part of the
>job) He went across to the markets where the locals shopped, and ate
>there and bought his food there. I can't recall him complaining of
>anything other than the occasional guts ache (that he blamed on the
>spices).
Exactly.
>
>> >> There are bazaars where people sell there handicraft and artwork.
>> >> It is mind-blowing. Tourists flow in just to buy artwork.
>> >
>> >You have them here too...
>>
>> But not of that size and to that extent and what they sell here is often
>> commercially made in f...ing China.
>
>Of course you have the junk side as well. But there is an amazing
>amount of jewellery made right here by local small time artisans.
>There are art and crafts like pottery, musical instruments, sculpture
>toys etc etc... all locally made. There are arts festivals all over
>the place, paintings sculptures etc. You need to get out a bit more,
>have a look around - its there.
Why don't they make a big permanent market and put it into the
tourist publications?
>
>> >> The bazaars became a tourist attraction and provide a lot of
>> >> income for the people and the country.....
>> >
>> >same here....
>>
>> Are they here listed in tourist pampflets as "must see"?
>
>Yes. And this weekend there is a big food and produce festival in the
>Barossa - also in the brochures. Not to mention the Adelaide 500 - for
>the tin-top V8's.
Adelaide becomes more and more attractive for me.....
(snip)
>> Yes, you are right of course. However, insurance costs and, in my humble
>> view,
>> the costs should be born by those who benefit and not by others.
>
>Ahhh... glad you mentioned that - insurance is a MUST for the
>back-yard producer too. The "benefit" is the sellers, as they derive
>their 'living' from it.
...meaning that you have to pay for the privilege to make a living?
>>
>> I don't agree with the standard of living bit. Low prices go around
>> everywhere. A breadloaf costs there 6 cents. Flat rent costs $ US 40.-
>> a month, They earn on average $ US 150 to 200 a month = they have
>> the same standard of living as us.
>
>Hang on, we are talking about back-yard producers here in Australia.
>You don't have the opportunity to lower the prices here. No union is
>going to agree to cutting wages. SO what you have is a puny income and
>normal costs otherwise. A few home producers - who couldn't sustain
>themselves from it anyway will no alter any cost structures.
You misunderstood me. I am not saying proces should go down here
too.
They earn less in those countries but the prices are lower too so that
under the line they live like us. The only think they can't afford are
luxory goods produced in the west.
For example, many women (a lot less men) dream about living and
working in western countries because then they can afford Italian
made fashion, for example. They can afford luxuries.
By the way, that is not the main reason why many Eastern European
women want to marry western men by the way. The local men
treat their women often like shit.
>>
>> Ukrainian women do not wear clothes made in China, they wear only
>> good Italian and German fashion.
>
>Hey, not everything from either Italy or Germany is "good quality".
>They both have mass produced goods, some better than others - and so
>varies the price too. Should have a peek into Beneton's factory (the
>clothing - not the race car). Not a hell of a lot of people work there
>you know. Automated and computerised to the hilt!
I know that, you know that but tell that to the average women.
Let's face it, a lot of women look at the price label. A dress costing
$ 150 is better than a dress costing $ 50.-
I think there is more to the whole situation than quality! The old
"ego" and "show-off" gets into the act, I think.
>
>> >> The trader? No, because things are cheap people can afford
>> >> more and the trader makes a good income because he sells
>> >> more (less profit per peace but higher turnover = more accumulated
>> >> profit under the line).
>> >
>> >Ah, come on! You are talking minuscule volumes here -ie HIGH COST
>> >production. Whilst your theory is right, fo MASS PRODUCTION and HIGH
>> >VOLUME sales - you are dead WRONG for a back yard producer.
>>
>> The cost of production is not high, we are not talking about TV sets.
>
>It doesn't matter WHAT it is. If you grow only 20 tomato plants and
>expect to make a living from that - it is HIGH. The same ONE person
>can grow an acre of them - the cost is low (in comparison).
But you need more land and probably a labour force.
>
>> >> The Government? May be a little because they miss out on revenue
>> >> due to licence fees and other charges but the Government saves
>> >> a lot of welfare and they have more tax revenue. Under the line
>> >> the Government probably breaks even.
>> >
>> >Their greatest loss would be from income taxes and GST revenue loss.
>> >Then they would have to INCREASE taxes.... making things less
>> >affordable.... increasing prices... higher wage demands... etc etc
>>
>> Ok, but why is that not happening there?
>
>It is.
>
>> >> Big multinationals and big business? Definitely yes! Woolworth
>> >> and Coles would not be able to compete or would make
>> >> a lot less profit to the point where they might feel it would
>> >> not be worthwhile to set up there. The only supermarket
>> >> chain which can survive there is the German Aldi group.
>> >
>> >Both Woollies and Coles would survive very well indeed. The home
>> >grower of things would break even or get a few cents pocket money out
>> >of it. You have been watching "The good life" on TV too much.
>>
>> But why are they not there?
>
>Because there was no free enterprise, and only the government could
>own such.
Not any more, Seppo, the USSR does not exist any longer.
You want to open a supermarket there you can go right ahead.
Aldi is there now!
>They seemed to have weird ways of doing things. Self Service
>was not popular as it reduced worker numbers required. After all the
>government decided what job you were going to do, and it was up to
>them to allocate jobs to people - they needed the positions. Part of
>why the system fell in a hole. Though I suspect major cities probably
>did have them.
That's all over now.
>
>> >> Yes, the rip-off merchants cannot survive there! Big business
>> >> has to compete, they cannot "kick out" the small ones because
>> >> there are too many of them and the population likes to buy
>> >> of the small stalls because their produce is fresher and cheaper.
>> >
>> >So a store that uses "loss leaders" to attract customers, and only
>> >makes around 1 to 1.5% profit on the goods, the rest comes from
>> >renting shelf space, is going to be thrown out by the little people
>> >:-)
>>
>> I did not say that.
>
>I'm pointing to WHY it can't happen. But take note that speciality
>stores live happily next to supermarkets - in fact require the
>supermarkets to bring them the customers.
I agree to that but I was not talking about specialty stores.
>> >> Looking at that I can only say that the Australian business
>> >> environment is set up to protect the rich and powerful, the
speculators
>> >> and otherwise not productive and useless individuals.
>> >> Australia protects the "establishment" and keeps others down.
>> >
>> >Oh SURE it does.... there are no such things as consumer protection
>> >Laws... health regulations ensuring safe products only are sold...
>> >codes of conduct... minimum standards requirements... no, none of that
>> >exists at all...
>>
>> Ok, all that protects you. May be we are coming to the point where the
>> real question is this:
>> "What is more important, protection or that some have the opportunity
>> of getting an income?"
>>
>> I don't know.
>
>Look at it this way. You as a person cannot cause harm to another - or
>you will be liable for that harm. That is what health regulations and
>licensing is about - to keep track of businesses, to check on that
>they are not "causing harm to another". Again it is preventative
>measures - and enabling measures to seek compensation when wrong has
>been done. This is missing over there to a large degree.
Why is it not necessary in other countries? Are Australians more
likely to be rip-off artists?
>
>> >> No wonder there is now as much poverty in Australia and the
>> >> USA as it is in poor Eastern European countries. Give it another
>> >> 5 years continuing our current policies and you will see Australians
>> >> and Americans emigrate to Eastern Europe because of better
>> >> opportunities. May be it's time you go to some school and learn
>> >> Russian, tovarish....
>> >
>> >.... and better learn how to live on $150 a month, that is what
>> >DOCTORS get paid there -if they are lucky.
>>
>> I can live there very comfortably on $ 150.- a week!
>
>That was a MONTH - not a week. The figure is a recent figure at that.
I said that I personally can! In fact, I would live like a king.
>>
>> You must compare cheese with cheese. Your standard of living is
>> determined by both income vs prices and not only income.
>
>No, it is far more than that. It also includes Services and social
>benefits. Something that is missing over there.
We haven't got many social services any more here either and
I understand that Johnny in Canberra wants to basically can social
services anyway.
>>
>> >>
>> >> Sad, really, Australia has so much potential. Why do Governments
>> >> on all levels keep fucking it up?
>> >
>> >Governments DON'T - dreamers only THINK they do :-)
>>
>> Don't they?
>
>No they don't. You may disagree with the way they do things, but that
>doesn't mean "government stuffs it up". There are often a number of
>ways that achieves the same outcome - it is the METHOD people often
>object to, not the outcome. Certainly I would suggest your ideas here
>about unravelling and dissolving consumer protection would "stuff up"
>things big time - and nobody would give such ideas enough votes to win
>government with.
Stuff up for whom?
In my view a "stuff up" is some action which makes some win and some lose.
A good policy is a win-win situatiion.
May be I am a dreamer...?
>
>Anyway to blame "the government" is really blaming yourself - because
>of the government we have. It is invalid to say "I didn't vote for
>them", as you COULD have done more to prevent them getting elected -
>like stand yourself, lobby politicians with your ideas - organise and
>form pressure groups..... but if you don't get popular support, you
>KNOW you are backing the wrong horse.
Obviously you are right. May be we Australians are just too placid.
By the way, I just heard on the that Alex Putin wants most business
licencing in Russia canned....
Seppo Renfors
Michael wrote:
>
> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC88760...@not.ollus.com.au>...
> >
> >
> >Michael wrote:
> >>
> >> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC71131...@not.ollus.com.au>...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Michael wrote:
> >> >>
[..]
> >>
> >> You are talking about Eastern Europe I presume?
>
> Yes, I do because I want to look at a society and culture more like
> the "Australian/European" culture rather than trying to compare
> us with an Asian culture which probably developed differently.
>
> Mind you, when I went into that area to engage in some business
> hence meeting a lot of people I found that time a big eye-opener.
>
> >
> >Former USSR and Russia (as you mentioned - hate to say "communism" as
> >some wise guy will only argue "they didn't have true communism...")
>
> Whilst being anything but a communist I have to agree with the notion
> that what they had was not communism in it's pure (theoretical)
> form.
>
> Mind you, pure communism is an idiotic ideas anyway because it goes
> against human nature anyway.
>
> >
[..]
> >> >
> >> >Painters don't need a licence here. Gardeners don't need a license
> >> >here. Neither are they entitled to get paid if they do a poor job.
> >> >They too can be held liable for damages they cause. They don't
> >> >necessarily get dumped behind bars for braking a vase in someone's
> >> >house while they are painting the inside of it. That is rather
> >> >draconian to say the least.
> >>
> >> Hey, what State do you live in.
> >
> >SA.
>
> Is that ok in SA? Bloody NSW has all sorts of restrictions.
>
> Now cop this. I was contemplating to get a piece of land and build
> a commercial premis at our local airport (owned by the council).
> The land was designated for commercial use only. Would you believe,
> the council only issued building permits with the providion that no
> large company signs advertising the name of the company or what
> services they provide anywhere on, next to or in from of the premis.
> They said it would be "visual pollution". The only thing allowed is a
> sign max. 1 m x 1 m, bot illuminated, next to the entry door.
There are regulations here too about signs, Sandwich board are
regulated. It depends a lot on a council area, and what the community
sees themselves being. Before I came here, there was a council that
was very much against industrialisation. They rejected an application
from a factory setting up here. That has changed totally since. Signs
is still policed, specially in the township as nobody wants the place
to become a plastic tourist rip-off stop.
>
> Obviosuly no company set up there....
They have them at Parafield.... but I know off a nice private
airfield, 3 runways, one of them an all weather strip, automatic
lights, a private NDB (was planned at least), hangars (and plenty of
vacant space)..... :-)
>
> Another goody-goody is this. A fellow in the neighbourhood who lost
> his job started to custom build furniture and sold it by advertisement.
> His place is in a residential area. He got a bloody rude letter from
> the council (some neighbours complained) because every day
> once or twice a truck from TNT picked up goods. He was threatened
> with a fine for conducting a business in a residential area.
Oh but that is fair enough. That IS the reason for not allowing
businesses like that in back-yards. It is too big for such. He'll need
timber and panel stocks (if solid furniture), saws that are noisy,
sawdust that will drift around no matter what, guns that are noisy -
paint/polish shop that sends fumes all over the neighbourhood.
There isn't only the pick-up truck, but delivery vehicles of all
kinds, reps customers etc... no that isn't suitable as a "home
business". Plenty of small cheap sheds around though for such.
>
> Another bloke has a ute. He lost his job and he bought from the
> markets fresh vegies and fruit, put it on the ute and sold the stuff
> door to door. The police approached him an asked him for some
> kind of a licence he did not have because he was not aware of
> the need sor a licence. He was fined.
Not sure if any kind of licence is required here for such, but there
again he is dealing with food stuffs. NOTE: you mention "markets",
there you are they exist your way too :-)
> A woman had the idea to prepare food at home and advertise
> that people can have the foor home delivered (like pizzas).
> Her husband, who lost his job, would deliver the meals.
> When she asked for the health regulations she was told that the
> health regulations are not the only problem. She was told that
> she cannot do this in her house because she lives in an area
> zoned "residential" and in such a zone people cannot put up
> with a delivery car constantly arriving and leaving.....
Somebody simply asked one question too many :-)
What else could they say? Such a thing could probably be got off the
ground from a home. Certainly such couldn't progress in a home to any
extent. Though I do know of two people (both in different towns) who
do operate reasonable size bakeries from home. However these people
may well live in a mixed light commercial/residential area.
>
> May be SA is a bit of a paradise?
Don't know about that, but in many ways it is heaps better than the
Eastern States. Certainly much better than Sydney or Melbourne.
> >> Im NSW a landscaper needs a licence
> >> because of him possibly making retaining walls. Ok, a Garderner
> >> cutting bushes and moving lawns doen't need a licence either.
> >
> >Sure there has been an extension to licensing here too. Technically a
> >carpet layer has to have a builders licence, as does a curtain maker.
> >Both carpets and curtains are supplied in new houses - hence they are
> >builders :-)
>
> What about laying carpets or making curtains in existing houses?
No problems. There is actually no mandatory requirement for a
"builders licence" for these professions, but there has been
advertising pushing, "get a licensed carpet layer".... one day a
carpet layer is the best and an expert - the next he is "un licensed"
and a risk that he may not know what he's doing....
> >That was the case when they were extending the licenses, I don't know
> >if they have put a stop to that nonsense now, or people just ignore it
> >- probably the latter. Certainly some retaining walls require a
> >builder, others don't - depends on their use, size etc.
>
> Exactly.
>
> >
[..]
> >
> >Never heard of a "Gold Licence". But have heard of "Gold Credit cards"
>
> No, here builders and such like get a "Gold Licence" from some "Builders'
> Licencing Board" and if a builder does crappy work or doesn't finish
> the work then there is an insurance which compensates you.
>
> I guess the law was made to protect existing builders?
Builders do pay into a fund. It is not about "protecting builders" but
protecting the builder's customers from those who go broke.
[..]
> >
> >There are untold number of businesses people CAN do - even from home.
> >Naturally you cannot open business premises in a residential area -
> >for obvious reasons. It doesn't mean you need other premises for many
> >types of businesses. Not far from my place there is an office in a
> >home, doing million $$ sales from there in wine. The important "tools"
> >for them are the telephone and fax and a postal service.
>
> You are correct. What I was on about was simply that not all people
> have the connections, the expertise and in many cases not the initial
> outlay to start.
>
> You see, I am not living in Sydney but in a NSW regional centre.
> In the area a lot of business went "belly up" or they centralised
> to Sydney. so there is "FA" employment. Those who still have
> a job are worried and keep their wallets closed. They just but food
> and clothing only when their old clothes basically fall off their bodies.
Most simple businesses involve going out to the people, making a home
based business viable. During the rainy season there are people who go
and clean out water tanks from the sediment concentrating on the
bottom of them. This is done in winter. All you need is a long hose
with a flat plate on the suction end that sits about 2 inches from the
bottom of the tank.
>
> The only non-food item people buy are things like hair cutters so that
> mum can cut hubby's and the kids hair, saves going to the hairdresser.
> In the supermarkets the more fancy goods disappeared because people
> did not buy them. I love the black European bread and these days
> I have to travel to a big city to buy it. In the main street 1/4 of the
> shops
> are empty and for lease. Landlords just can't find anyone to rent a shop.
Well, premises should be able to be had very cheaply then. Many
landlords will offer things like 6 months free to assist with start up
of a new business.
> If my business would rely on the area I live in I would be out of
> business a long time ago. For me it is quite good to operate and
> live here because it is cheap (you get a good house on good land
> for $ 75,000, you can rent office space now (3 large rooms, fully
> self contained) for $ 400.- per calender month and the supermarkets
> are about 20% cheaper than anywhere else. Even the petrol is
> as cheap as in Sydney itself.
That's the benefits of living in the rural area. It is a wonder WHY
many people bother with the big cities. Same just out from Melbourne,
low cost housing in clean beautiful surrounds, within 1 hr travel from
the big smoke (literally).
[..]
> >
> >These two brothers are in Perth. Don't tell me that cities like
> >Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane (Adelaide don't need them :-) haven't got
> >enough people to support several of this kind of service businesses in
> >each city?
>
> Melbourne and Sydney yes, Brisbane I am not too sure. Regional centre -
> forget it. However, the highest unemployment is in regional centres.
People make employment. There are such cheap properties in rural
areas, they can be purchased as holiday houses by the city slickers,
and have a relaxing bit of country life, even if people don't
permanently move there - that way they would have a nice place to
retire too as well. It adds to the economy. Some smaller places in SA
have managed to reverse the trends. One place has no empty shops in
their town anymore, from having had a a few (somewhere on Eyre
Peninsular, towards Minnipa - Streaky Bay, can't remember which one).
>
> >
> >There were two women who started a specialist toilet and bathroom
> >cleaning service - domestic oriented. They now employ other people in
> >that business and do commercial premises too. (you know, the places
> >where staff are "too good" do so, and the bosses end up doing it
> >themselves)
>
> The big cities, yes. In regional centres some of these business were
> established but they went bust because people do it all themselves
> to save money.
Sure, but people in close by regional centres can can get their
customers in the big smoke.
We are doing nothing wrong. You look to social security for your
answer to why the willingness isn't there. It is quite amazing what
people CAN do when they HAVE to. Those countries don't have such
protection. Their economies are still behind us and they simply cannot
afford such. When you have no money, you have to work.
> >> May be it has something to do with attitudes in Australia?
> >> I must admit, compared to in Russia or Ukraine today I don't
> >> get any service in any Australian shop or restaurant. Compared
> >> to there shop-staff and waiters in restaurants are extremely
> >> unhelpful.
> >
> >??? Where the hell were you? Some tourist place? You certainly don't
> >get that in Moscow from the reports I have seen. Surly old mammas
> >lazily point you to a ticket machine to take a number. (only 3 people
> >in the shop) After 10 minutes your number gets called, and you ask for
> >(whatever), they don't have it but you purchase an alternative
> >instead. Then you attempt to pay, and get pointed to another area,
> >with the same surly attitude that hasn't changed, to where you pay.
>
> I stayed in Odessa for three month on business three times and
> I had to travel to Kiev, Vinnitsa, then to Moscow, St. Petersburg
> as well as to several other provincial cities.
>
> You see, I had to buy a few aeroplanes there (I got two YAK 52 trainer
> which was mothballed for $ US 5,200 each would you believe....)
Oh, I can believe it, but that isn't where the expenses finish is it
:-)
You didn't fly one home did you.... or you'd be in the Air race (that
is is being lead by a pilot I know fairy well :-)
You have freight, then you have to get a major done here... what about
the engine - needs to have a top-end or rebuild before you get an air
worthiness certificate? What about the avionics? What about spares?
Bend one of them here and where the hell do you get parts? Perhaps one
is for parts ;-)
Why not go to Hong Kong and purchase the vehicles many dump in the
streets because it is cheaper than registering them (rego cost is very
high there)? They even dump Mercedes vehicles over there. A friend
used to bring in scooters dumped over there. They do that when rego
cost exceeds value of machine - which is very quickly indeed.
>
> I never had these experiences. I must admit that things were slower
> in Moscow and St. Petersburg but I was surprised about the
> services and attention I got anywhere else.
With the old system dead they would have had to pull up their socks as
well. Besides now individuals, not the State owns businesses. Makes a
difference.
> >
> >There you always take a "just in case" bag with you whenever to go
> >anywhere. It is called that, because just in case you see something in
> >a shop to buy!! Things are changing in Moscow not, but at the expense
> >of outlying areas that are being ignored and robbed of funds.
>
> I never had that experience. Mind you, I went to that area the first
> time only in 1998.
Yes... that IS about the time that story surfaced, but then it wasn't
as bad as it used to be, but people still had a "just in case" bag
-and it was used.
>
> Last time I was there (November) I found that life in Russia seems to
> improve a lot.
>
[..]
> >
> >"Manager"??? Hey I thought you were talking about locals, small
> >enterprises and street vendors. Not luxury hotels.
>
> No, restaurants employing a few waiters. Most of the small restaurants
> I went to seem to have between one and three waiters employed.
> >> Actually, Seppo, that sterility can somehow get on your wig....
> >>
> >Constant action doesn't always equate to "sterility" :-)
>
> No, but it's just too much. When I visited people in their homes
> I didn't dare initially to sit down or touch anything. Their flats
> or houses looked like a showroom.
... because they knew you were coming :-)
>
> Mind you, I must admit that after a few vodkas I lost my inhibitions....
>
:-)
[..]
>
> In the flat I lived in in Odessa I burned my fingers under the hot water tap
> (hot water is supplied centrally).
Point made :-)
It needs that kind of temperatures to kill bacteria (70+)
> Mind you, I noticed that most people wiped
> all surfaces and used proper cleaning materials like us (unfortuantelly
> most of the stuff seems to be imported from Germany - I would have
> liked to see more Australian goods there). They all put the towels
> and other cleaning cloth on the funny central heating radiators in the
> kitchen.
Know them well.... bloody radiators dry the air and does cause
respiratory problems for many. People hang little vases off them with
water to replace the humidity lost... but they are also good
incubators for bacteria growth on rags :-)
A problem that IS rather overrated here I think.
>
> >
> >Think of it. A good meal can be bought for $5.50 at a market. Pizza
> >home delivered for $19 to feed 4 with a 1.25 liter bottle of drink
> >thrown in. How are you going to compete with that?
>
> I think you could. I think if you cook a good size of topside,
> some potatoes and vegies you could sell one meal easily
> for $ 5.50 and make a profit.
Yes, a roast you CAN do... sausages, salad and a dollop of mash
produces very good profit too even at $3.00 - provided labour isn't
taken into account. BUT the killer is the residual - the unsold stuff
that cannot be used the next day. That is were you lose your profits
really fast. I have been involved with catering - expecting sales of
around 400 "serves", but only getting 200-250, and that's it - NIL
profit even the occasional loss and a hard days yakka for 3-4 people.
Events where that kind of sales eventuate require a function of some
size.
> >Many years ago now, in London there was a place that sold stew (well
> >known place but can't remember the name of it). Nothing but the stew -
> >no menu - only the stew. There were queues waiting to get in. You sat
> >wherever there was a bum space on long benches by equally long tables.
> >The cost of the feed was 25p and no worries you didn't go hungry, and
> >it was damned good - in comparison a single piece of KFC and small bag
> >of chips cost 21-24p at the same time. There might be an opportunity
> >here for something like that. I think they would have been raking in
> >fortunes there.
>
> Good point!
>
[..]
> >> >
> >> >You can here too. They are all over the place. Usually weekly of
> >> >bi-weekly. Some are only monthly.
> >>
> >> There they are running every day and almost on every second
> >> street corner.
> >
> >They don't have Coles and Wollies (or equivalent) there do they?
>
> No, these big fellows seem to be either desinterested or did not go
> there yet. I have seen the German ALDI market there (which is setting
> up in Australia now too). They are extremely cheap.
>
> The "supermarkets" I have seen there looked to me more than a
> very large size milk bar.
Ahhh... yes that is the old way - the hangover for the past.
>
> Mind you, when you buy things on the market the stuff is that cheap that
> I think the large supermarket chains could not compete because they
> would not get enough return on their investment at the moment.
> However, that could change in the future.
Of course they would - not yet perhaps, but don't forget the people
selling the produce they have been picking it from sometime at 3 - 4
am, and then be at the market all day as well. I'm sure they they
would be MUCH happier selling everything in one go and then go home by
9 am.
These people work damned hard and long for the little they get, and I
tell you they don't live in any flash high rise apartments.
> >Well that's your fault for picking a lousy state to live in :-)
> >But I'm sure you are wrong. Sydney would have several markets - after
> >all that is where the shops go at 4 am to purchase their fresh fruit &
> >veg from. Maybe some Sydneysider can tell us more about that. There
> >are the so called "trash and treasure markets" all over the place. You
> >get home produce at those.
>
> Yes, Sydney has a fe markets but not the permanent thing as far as
> I am aware of.
Usually such are weekly events in the same locations.
>
> >I suspect they exist there too - probably in many places. Anyway
> >Ballarat is only 1 hour out of Melbourne. Melbourne does have a huge
> >produce market - been there at 6 am (I don't like getting up early)
> >Adelaide has Central Market - open every day (not sure about Sundays)
> >and there are other markets dotted around the place.
>
> I have got the impression that Adelaide is not a bad place to live?!
It is much friendlier, but then it is smaller too. It is well enough
serviced. Even though much wholesale stuff has to come from Melbourne,
but that is overnight (Sydney is really shit to get stuff from).
[..]
> >
> >...because the tomato was ripe on Monday and no bloody good on
> >Tuesday! Again this was about back-yard operations. Don't you know
> >that fruit all ripens at once? One day it is all ripe, next day - make
> >puree out of it. The Central Market and that kind are seriously
> >commercial operations.
>
> I know what you mean but what I enjoyed was that people only
> sold the good stuff.
...and ate the other stuff themselves :-)
[..]
> >> >You can already do all of that, but you may have to take two or three
> >> >step to do so. You might also have to think about it before you get to
> >> >the bus stop, and hop into a shop on your way.
> >>
> >> Ok, why? I found it very convenient to buy a drink at the busstop.
> >
> >Too lazy to take the few steps back to the shop behind you? You would
> >loose your place in the queue? You didn't mind spilling hot coffee on
> >you when rattling along in the bus?
>
> Yes, particularly if it could provide someone else with an income which
> in the end saves me taxes for welfare?
But you won't get anyone doing it here, besides people would not use
them here either.
>
> I don't buy coffee to drink in the bus, I buy an appropriate drink.
I always had a cup of coffee driving to work in the car. All you had
to do was tilt the cup going around bends in the road :-)
[..]
> >A recent study indicated that people no longer do a "weekly shop" but
> >are purchasing daily requirements. So they do manage daily even here.
> >Learn to PLAN :-)
>
> Why? Just to protect existing business from open slatter competition?
Like I said, anyone is free to go into competition if they so desire.
The supermarkets even in my town are open 7 days a week now.
[..]
> >It isn't about that, but preservation of fish stock. A sustainable
> >harvesting issue.
>
> But how come that it works with countries which got a lot more
> population and less fish stocks?
It doesn't! Former USSR has really stuffed up their inland fisheries
badly already.
>
> I just can't work that out! Surely Australians are not dumber or
> more ignorant than others?
We have also been too bloody ignorant for too long. Over fishing has
taken place here too.
[..]
> >>
> >> Sorry, Seppo, you misunderstood. Those fishermen are not amateurs,
> >> they do it for a living with proper boats.
> >
> >Damned right it was an amateur with nothing more that a 15 footer! He
> >lived (recently died) up the road a bit. There are many with boats and
> >nets - though they are now being curtailed, last I heard, only allowed
> >two 75 ft nets - should be banned totally and may have been since.
> >There are also bag limits - per boat and/or person - depending on
> >species. Fishing is the most popular recreational sport there is in
> >Australia.
>
> I wasn't talking about Australia.
I don't know what they do about controls on their fishery activities
to regulate it. All I know is that they have taken on the task of
attempt to remedy the past destruction - but with little money for
anything, they are pushing shit uphill with a pointy stick. Several
animal species are near extinction, or already so over there too.
[..]
> >> All for the benefit of whom?
> >
> >For everyone. What is the point of fishing to a total depletion?
> >Nothing for professionals OR amateurs then.
>
> But why does it all work in other countries?
Like I said, it doesn't. They have problems too.
[..]
> >> In the Euopean part of Russia, yes. Mind you, I found no shortage
> >> of Sturgeon Caviar in Ruddia and the Ukraine. In Odessa I paid
> >> 12 Grivna = $ AUS 4.- for 250 grams.
> >
> >Much overrated muck in any case. Don't like it. Give me ordinary Cod
> >roe instead in a nice mixture of a mayonnaise of some sort... can be
> >purchased here. It comes in like toothpaste tubes and costs about
> >$6.25 a tube.
>
> I liked it but yes, it is over-rated. Mind you, black bread with butter
> and caviar and a good bottle of Odessa or Crimea champagne
> go down rather well.
Naaaahhh.... a good french roll or two, nice hunk of cheese (not that
plastic kids love -cheddar.. ugh) and a nice bottle of red.....
sitting on a hillside overlooking a sound shell, listening to
Beethoven's 5th....
>
> The Ukrainian wodka (with some kind of a plant looking like a chilli
> inside) tasts terrific. I wonder why the bastards don't export that stuff.
Umm.. yes their Vodka is good, had a glass or two... Don't know that
one... could it be something with an aniseed flavouring? You know the
stuff that grows wild on the road sides here, and the council sprays
with weed killers.... Fennel!
> I liked more food like minced and spiced chicken mince cooked
> wrapped in cabbage leafs. Mind you, it makes you fart like a foghorn....
Have cooked similar myself on occasions, using mince mixed with rice
as a filling - never had that problem ever from it.
> >Why would they sell the caviar internally for? They get some $US
> >140/kg for exporting it (there must be a lot of mugs in the world).
> >They are also desperate for foreign currency.
>
> I understand that they have some law that some percentage of local
> produce must be sold inside the country at a price the people can
> afford. Somebody mentioned that to me.
That makes sense.. otherwise they wouldn't get any :-)
>
> I'm not quite sure how that works. I only paid for a bottle of Crimea
> champagne 14 Grivna in Odessa ($ 4.60) and in germany the same
> bottle costs about DM 60 = approx. $ AUS 60.
The costs are taxes, transport, operating costs and profit. The
Germans aren't underpaid from what I hear.
>
> >> The people there seems to be healthier than us! They are fitter, they
> >> are a lot slimmer and you don't hear about people getting ill anywhere.
> >
> >"Seems" is the operative word. "Slimmer" means they eat less - work
> >harder!! You don't see them when they are sick - they stay home and
> >out of sight. What is their life expectancy there?
>
> I don't have the impression they eat much less. I found that they eat
> a hot meal when we have lunch and only workers coming home
> in the evening eat warm in the evening.
That is less than for many of us here, but then obesity IS getting to
be a problem here.
>
> Yes, you are right, they work a lot harder.
>
> I have seen a lot of old people and I have met some (parents of people
> I had to deal with). I was quite surprised. In many areas they get very
> old apparently. The funny thing is that 80 years old still work on a piece
> of land and most oldies live happily without homecare services.
So do people on the land here too - not that they NEED to but you
can't keep them away. Like a friend, both hip joints have been
replaced, age 81 and he fell out of a fruit tree he had climbed to
prune. He was a bit sore and sorry and laid him low for a week, then
he was back on the tractor again...
>
> I don't know the average life expentancy but I was told most get very old.
> There are a lot of 80 years old people and, embarrassing enough, I was
> even told that most of them still "root like rabbits". Hahahaha
They brag a lot too :-)
One of my first customers here said to me "Now, young man, don't take
too long over it, I want to see it before I go"... She was 80, and I
could have sworn she couldn't be more than 60!! Technically our bodies
are made to last between 90 and 100 years, after that it is knackerd
biologically and won't last. Life expectancy has a lot to do with not
the people who manage to evade the pitfalls of live but the age, when
all deaths are taken into account, including infant deaths, car,
industrial etc, accidents. It is this that indicate the "health" of a
nation.
>
> May be it's the food? They eat a lot of fatty fish (Omega 3 acids) and
> Ukrainians use very little fat for cooking in contrast to Russians.
That will not hurt.
>
> I must admit that I love the Ukrainian or Azerbayan food but I don't
> like the Russian food that much.
I'm more familiar with standard Russian type fare.
[..]
> >
> >Of course you have the junk side as well. But there is an amazing
> >amount of jewellery made right here by local small time artisans.
> >There are art and crafts like pottery, musical instruments, sculpture
> >toys etc etc... all locally made. There are arts festivals all over
> >the place, paintings sculptures etc. You need to get out a bit more,
> >have a look around - its there.
>
> Why don't they make a big permanent market and put it into the
> tourist publications?
Because it isn't viable. An Art exhibition, once a year, in Victor
Harbour provides a PROFIT of $25,000 over a weekend. It only does so
because it IS only once a year. But other art markets exist at other
times elsewhere - and not necessarily long distances away.
>
[..]
> >
> >Yes. And this weekend there is a big food and produce festival in the
> >Barossa - also in the brochures. Not to mention the Adelaide 500 - for
> >the tin-top V8's.
>
> Adelaide becomes more and more attractive for me.....
... and then there is the Glendi festival... Greek Italian folk
dancing and music... and food... glorious FOOD... :-)
[..]
> >
> >Ahhh... glad you mentioned that - insurance is a MUST for the
> >back-yard producer too. The "benefit" is the sellers, as they derive
> >their 'living' from it.
>
> ...meaning that you have to pay for the privilege to make a living?
Naturally! You ALWAYS do, not matter what. Be you a worker of a boss,
the same applies. Only the bosses provide much of the protection for
the workers as well as themselves.
[..]
> >
> >Hang on, we are talking about back-yard producers here in Australia.
> >You don't have the opportunity to lower the prices here. No union is
> >going to agree to cutting wages. SO what you have is a puny income and
> >normal costs otherwise. A few home producers - who couldn't sustain
> >themselves from it anyway will no alter any cost structures.
>
>
> You misunderstood me. I am not saying proces should go down here
> too.
> They earn less in those countries but the prices are lower too so that
> under the line they live like us. The only think they can't afford are
> luxory goods produced in the west.
Try Health costs - Superannuation etc - not many can "afford" such
either.
[...]
[..]
> I think there is more to the whole situation than quality! The old
> "ego" and "show-off" gets into the act, I think.
Hey, expensive isn't something you can talk about, but a bargain...
"Hey see this shirt... seven bucks mate... Bargain..", but with a
shirt $100 who would dare to say "Hey, this shirt... hundred bucks
mate..." and get as an answer "SUCKEEEER.." :-)
[..]
>>
>> The cost of production is not high, we are not talking about TV sets.
>
>It doesn't matter WHAT it is. If you grow only 20 tomato plants and
>expect to make a living from that - it is HIGH. The same ONE person
>can grow an acre of them - the cost is low (in comparison).
> But you need more land and probably a labour force.
For a acre of tomatoes, you would need the acre, sure but no extra
labour for that small amount.
[..]
>> >Both Woollies and Coles would survive very well indeed. The home
>> >grower of things would break even or get a few cents pocket money out
>> >of it. You have been watching "The good life" on TV too much.
>>
>> But why are they not there?
>
>Because there was no free enterprise, and only the government could
>own such.
> Not any more, Seppo, the USSR does not exist any longer.
> You want to open a supermarket there you can go right ahead.
> Aldi is there now!
Yes I know it's over, but it is that there isn't the infrastructure
from those days in place.
[..]
>>> >So a store that uses "loss leaders" to attract customers, and only
>>> >makes around 1 to 1.5% profit on the goods, the rest comes from
>>> >renting shelf space, is going to be thrown out by the little people
>>> >:-)
>>>
>>> I did not say that.
>
> >I'm pointing to WHY it can't happen. But take note that speciality
> >stores live happily next to supermarkets - in fact require the
> >supermarkets to bring them the customers.
> I agree to that but I was not talking about specialty stores.
But you are when you sell only a limited and "home grown" product - no
matter where you do it.
[..]
>>
>> Ok, all that protects you. May be we are coming to the point where the
>> real question is this:
>> "What is more important, protection or that some have the opportunity
>> of getting an income?"
>>
>> I don't know.
>
> >Look at it this way. You as a person cannot cause harm to another - or
> >you will be liable for that harm. That is what health regulations and
> >licensing is about - to keep track of businesses, to check on that
> >they are not "causing harm to another". Again it is preventative
> >measures - and enabling measures to seek compensation when wrong has
> >been done. This is missing over there to a large degree.
> Why is it not necessary in other countries? Are Australians more
> likely to be rip-off artists?
Oh but is exists in a HUGE way in Russia specially, the "Moscow Mafia"
isn't kiddies fairy tails. A lot of "payola" took place to get medical
attention - no payola - you wait till those others have been seen to.
[..]
>> >.... and better learn how to live on $150 a month, that is what
>> >DOCTORS get paid there -if they are lucky.
>>
>> I can live there very comfortably on $ 150.- a week!
>
>That was a MONTH - not a week. The figure is a recent figure at that.
I said that I personally can! In fact, I would live like a king.
I'm sure you would - 4 times the income of a DOCTOR, who are "high
paid" even there :-)
>>
>> You must compare cheese with cheese. Your standard of living is
>> determined by both income vs prices and not only income.
>
>No, it is far more than that. It also includes Services and social
>benefits. Something that is missing over there.
We haven't got many social services any more here either and
I understand that Johnny in Canberra wants to basically can social
services anyway.
We have more than we have ever had before - and receive more money for
it too than ever before. I have nothing against taking the parasites
out of the system who are ripping it off. I have seen plenty of it
going on over time.
>> >> Sad, really, Australia has so much potential. Why do Governments
>> >> on all levels keep fucking it up?
>> >
>> >Governments DON'T - dreamers only THINK they do :-)
>>
>> Don't they?
>
> >No they don't. You may disagree with the way they do things, but that
> >doesn't mean "government stuffs it up". There are often a number of
> >ways that achieves the same outcome - it is the METHOD people often
> >object to, not the outcome. Certainly I would suggest your ideas here
> >about unravelling and dissolving consumer protection would "stuff up"
> >things big time - and nobody would give such ideas enough votes to win
> >government with.
> Stuff up for whom?
The CONSUMERS in this case.
> In my view a "stuff up" is some action which makes some win and some lose.
> A good policy is a win-win situatiion.
> May be I am a dreamer...?
Such occurrences are rare indeed. For someone to win another has to
loose.
> >Anyway to blame "the government" is really blaming yourself - because
> >of the government we have. It is invalid to say "I didn't vote for
> >them", as you COULD have done more to prevent them getting elected -
> >like stand yourself, lobby politicians with your ideas - organise and
> >form pressure groups..... but if you don't get popular support, you
> >KNOW you are backing the wrong horse.
> Obviously you are right. May be we Australians are just too placid.
Most everything evolves slowly over time. It is impossible to turn
something like a lifestyle around very suddenly. The example how hard
it is, is seen in the former USSR. Even a partial change like to the
tax system is causing a lot of concern to many people - mostly more
imaginary than real, but anxiety never the less. In another year or
so, nobody will even think about it anymore, and wonder what they were
worrying about.
> By the way, I just heard on the that Alex Putin wants most business
licensing in Russia canned....
The "Moscow Mafia" wants to control it??
Michael
Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3ACC317B...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>
>
>Michael wrote:
>>
>> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC88760...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>> >
>> >
>> >Michael wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC71131...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Michael wrote:
>> >> >>
>[..]
>> >>
>
>They have them at Parafield.... but I know off a nice private
>airfield, 3 runways, one of them an all weather strip, automatic
>lights, a private NDB (was planned at least), hangars (and plenty of
>vacant space)..... :-)
Where is that one? Is it ok for multi and turboprop ops?
>>
>> Another goody-goody is this. A fellow in the neighbourhood who lost
>> his job started to custom build furniture and sold it by advertisement.
>> His place is in a residential area. He got a bloody rude letter from
>> the council (some neighbours complained) because every day
>> once or twice a truck from TNT picked up goods. He was threatened
>> with a fine for conducting a business in a residential area.
>
>Oh but that is fair enough. That IS the reason for not allowing
>businesses like that in back-yards. It is too big for such. He'll need
>timber and panel stocks (if solid furniture), saws that are noisy,
>sawdust that will drift around no matter what, guns that are noisy -
>paint/polish shop that sends fumes all over the neighbourhood.
>
>There isn't only the pick-up truck, but delivery vehicles of all
>kinds, reps customers etc... no that isn't suitable as a "home
>business". Plenty of small cheap sheds around though for such.
Not here, unfortunately.
>>
>> Another bloke has a ute. He lost his job and he bought from the
>> markets fresh vegies and fruit, put it on the ute and sold the stuff
>> door to door. The police approached him an asked him for some
>> kind of a licence he did not have because he was not aware of
>> the need sor a licence. He was fined.
>
>Not sure if any kind of licence is required here for such, but there
>again he is dealing with food stuffs. NOTE: you mention "markets",
>there you are they exist your way too :-)
That's true but they only operate one day a week.
>
>> A woman had the idea to prepare food at home and advertise
>> that people can have the foor home delivered (like pizzas).
>> Her husband, who lost his job, would deliver the meals.
>> When she asked for the health regulations she was told that the
>> health regulations are not the only problem. She was told that
>> she cannot do this in her house because she lives in an area
>> zoned "residential" and in such a zone people cannot put up
>> with a delivery car constantly arriving and leaving.....
>
>Somebody simply asked one question too many :-)
Not really, if she violates council regulations I bet you the local
Pizza Hut manager and the local Macdonals manager will
dop her in.
>
>What else could they say? Such a thing could probably be got off the
>ground from a home. Certainly such couldn't progress in a home to any
>extent. Though I do know of two people (both in different towns) who
>do operate reasonable size bakeries from home. However these people
>may well live in a mixed light commercial/residential area.
>>
>> May be SA is a bit of a paradise?
>
>Don't know about that, but in many ways it is heaps better than the
>Eastern States. Certainly much better than Sydney or Melbourne.
Looks like it.
>
>> >> Im NSW a landscaper needs a licence
>> >> because of him possibly making retaining walls. Ok, a Garderner
>> >> cutting bushes and moving lawns doen't need a licence either.
>> >
>> >Sure there has been an extension to licensing here too. Technically a
>> >carpet layer has to have a builders licence, as does a curtain maker.
>> >Both carpets and curtains are supplied in new houses - hence they are
>> >builders :-)
>>
>> What about laying carpets or making curtains in existing houses?
>
>No problems. There is actually no mandatory requirement for a
>"builders licence" for these professions, but there has been
>advertising pushing, "get a licensed carpet layer".... one day a
>carpet layer is the best and an expert - the next he is "un licensed"
>and a risk that he may not know what he's doing....
We had the same stuff here. We even got pamphlets delivered home
by the NSW consumer protection people telling consumers to avoid
risks and never ever accept any home maintenance from unlicenced
people.
>
>> >That was the case when they were extending the licenses, I don't know
>> >if they have put a stop to that nonsense now, or people just ignore it
>> >- probably the latter. Certainly some retaining walls require a
>> >builder, others don't - depends on their use, size etc.
>>
>> Exactly.
>>
>> >
>[..]
>> >
>> >Never heard of a "Gold Licence". But have heard of "Gold Credit cards"
>>
>> No, here builders and such like get a "Gold Licence" from some "Builders'
>> Licencing Board" and if a builder does crappy work or doesn't finish
>> the work then there is an insurance which compensates you.
>>
>> I guess the law was made to protect existing builders?
>
>Builders do pay into a fund. It is not about "protecting builders" but
>protecting the builder's customers from those who go broke.
You can only get into such insurance provided you have are a
builder here. Otherwise insurances don't accept people.
>
>[..]
>> >
>> >There are untold number of businesses people CAN do - even from home.
>> >Naturally you cannot open business premises in a residential area -
>> >for obvious reasons. It doesn't mean you need other premises for many
>> >types of businesses. Not far from my place there is an office in a
>> >home, doing million $$ sales from there in wine. The important "tools"
>> >for them are the telephone and fax and a postal service.
>>
>> You are correct. What I was on about was simply that not all people
>> have the connections, the expertise and in many cases not the initial
>> outlay to start.
>>
>> You see, I am not living in Sydney but in a NSW regional centre.
>> In the area a lot of business went "belly up" or they centralised
>> to Sydney. so there is "FA" employment. Those who still have
>> a job are worried and keep their wallets closed. They just but food
>> and clothing only when their old clothes basically fall off their bodies.
>
>Most simple businesses involve going out to the people, making a home
>based business viable. During the rainy season there are people who go
>and clean out water tanks from the sediment concentrating on the
>bottom of them. This is done in winter. All you need is a long hose
>with a flat plate on the suction end that sits about 2 inches from the
>bottom of the tank.
True, all already done here and by quite large comanies.
>>
>> The only non-food item people buy are things like hair cutters so that
>> mum can cut hubby's and the kids hair, saves going to the hairdresser.
>> In the supermarkets the more fancy goods disappeared because people
>> did not buy them. I love the black European bread and these days
>> I have to travel to a big city to buy it. In the main street 1/4 of the
>> shops
>> are empty and for lease. Landlords just can't find anyone to rent a shop.
>
>Well, premises should be able to be had very cheaply then. Many
>landlords will offer things like 6 months free to assist with start up
>of a new business.
Gee, I think I pack my bags and come to Adelaide!
My wife would love to oven a restaurant offering Ukrainain cuisine
(which is bloody tasky and very healthy compared to the Russian muck).
>
>> If my business would rely on the area I live in I would be out of
>> business a long time ago. For me it is quite good to operate and
>> live here because it is cheap (you get a good house on good land
>> for $ 75,000, you can rent office space now (3 large rooms, fully
>> self contained) for $ 400.- per calender month and the supermarkets
>> are about 20% cheaper than anywhere else. Even the petrol is
>> as cheap as in Sydney itself.
>
>That's the benefits of living in the rural area. It is a wonder WHY
>many people bother with the big cities. Same just out from Melbourne,
>low cost housing in clean beautiful surrounds, within 1 hr travel from
>the big smoke (literally).
The problem is here that there is absolutely no work.
Sydney is 2.5 h by car away, there is no train and the nearest city
(Newcastle) is almost dead too.
>
>[..]
>> >
>> >These two brothers are in Perth. Don't tell me that cities like
>> >Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane (Adelaide don't need them :-) haven't got
>> >enough people to support several of this kind of service businesses in
>> >each city?
>>
>> Melbourne and Sydney yes, Brisbane I am not too sure. Regional centre -
>> forget it. However, the highest unemployment is in regional centres.
>
>People make employment. There are such cheap properties in rural
>areas, they can be purchased as holiday houses by the city slickers,
>and have a relaxing bit of country life, even if people don't
>permanently move there - that way they would have a nice place to
>retire too as well. It adds to the economy. Some smaller places in SA
>have managed to reverse the trends. One place has no empty shops in
>their town anymore, from having had a a few (somewhere on Eyre
>Peninsular, towards Minnipa - Streaky Bay, can't remember which one).
I agree. That's the way to go.
Mind you, in our area are no cheap rural properties for sale.
>>
>> >
>> >There were two women who started a specialist toilet and bathroom
>> >cleaning service - domestic oriented. They now employ other people in
>> >that business and do commercial premises too. (you know, the places
>> >where staff are "too good" do so, and the bosses end up doing it
>> >themselves)
>>
>> The big cities, yes. In regional centres some of these business were
>> established but they went bust because people do it all themselves
>> to save money.
>
>Sure, but people in close by regional centres can can get their
>customers in the big smoke.
That is if the big smoke is relatively close. The problem here
is that the area close enough to the big smoke is heavily
settled and very expensive.
(snip)
>> Seppo, what bugs me somehow is this:
>> Why does it work in other countries but not in Australia and similar
>> countries? What are we doing differently or what are we doing wrong?
>> It just doesn't make sense?
>>
>> Are we too sloppy? Is it our attitude that we are more prepared to
>> sell food which is off and don't care?
>>
>> I don't know the answer but I find it somehow odd that it works
>> somewhere else but not here?!
>
>We are doing nothing wrong. You look to social security for your
>answer to why the willingness isn't there. It is quite amazing what
>people CAN do when they HAVE to. Those countries don't have such
>protection. Their economies are still behind us and they simply cannot
>afford such. When you have no money, you have to work.
You could be right but, as I said, there are less restrictions.
>
>> >> May be it has something to do with attitudes in Australia?
>> >> I must admit, compared to in Russia or Ukraine today I don't
>> >> get any service in any Australian shop or restaurant. Compared
>> >> to there shop-staff and waiters in restaurants are extremely
>> >> unhelpful.
>> >
>> >??? Where the hell were you? Some tourist place? You certainly don't
>> >get that in Moscow from the reports I have seen. Surly old mammas
>> >lazily point you to a ticket machine to take a number. (only 3 people
>> >in the shop) After 10 minutes your number gets called, and you ask for
>> >(whatever), they don't have it but you purchase an alternative
>> >instead. Then you attempt to pay, and get pointed to another area,
>> >with the same surly attitude that hasn't changed, to where you pay.
>>
>> I stayed in Odessa for three month on business three times and
>> I had to travel to Kiev, Vinnitsa, then to Moscow, St. Petersburg
>> as well as to several other provincial cities.
>>
>> You see, I had to buy a few aeroplanes there (I got two YAK 52 trainer
>> which was mothballed for $ US 5,200 each would you believe....)
>
>Oh, I can believe it, but that isn't where the expenses finish is it
>:-)
>You didn't fly one home did you.... or you'd be in the Air race (that
>is is being lead by a pilot I know fairy well :-)
One of them was bought for someone else. I don't know if
he wants to fly it here. In any case, small aircraft purchased in the USA
are shipped here as well in most cases.
>
>You have freight, then you have to get a major done here... what about
>the engine - needs to have a top-end or rebuild before you get an air
>worthiness certificate? What about the avionics? What about spares?
>Bend one of them here and where the hell do you get parts? Perhaps one
>is for parts ;-)
Still cheaper than buying here.
I found that if you buy a Piper Archer, about 5 years old, in the USA
you will save a lot of money which is why many people do it. The only
problem is that many won't service it here because you naughty boy
did not buy it in Australia.
>
>Why not go to Hong Kong and purchase the vehicles many dump in the
>streets because it is cheaper than registering them (rego cost is very
>high there)? They even dump Mercedes vehicles over there. A friend
>used to bring in scooters dumped over there. They do that when rego
>cost exceeds value of machine - which is very quickly indeed.
Not a bad idea....
>>
>> I never had these experiences. I must admit that things were slower
>> in Moscow and St. Petersburg but I was surprised about the
>> services and attention I got anywhere else.
>
>With the old system dead they would have had to pull up their socks as
>well. Besides now individuals, not the State owns businesses. Makes a
>difference.
Definitely true!
>> In the flat I lived in in Odessa I burned my fingers under the hot water
tap
>> (hot water is supplied centrally).
>
>Point made :-)
>It needs that kind of temperatures to kill bacteria (70+)
>
>> Mind you, I noticed that most people wiped
>> all surfaces and used proper cleaning materials like us (unfortuantelly
>> most of the stuff seems to be imported from Germany - I would have
>> liked to see more Australian goods there). They all put the towels
>> and other cleaning cloth on the funny central heating radiators in the
>> kitchen.
>
>Know them well.... bloody radiators dry the air and does cause
>respiratory problems for many. People hang little vases off them with
>water to replace the humidity lost... but they are also good
>incubators for bacteria growth on rags :-)
Are they?
>
>A problem that IS rather overrated here I think.
>>
>> >
>> >Think of it. A good meal can be bought for $5.50 at a market. Pizza
>> >home delivered for $19 to feed 4 with a 1.25 liter bottle of drink
>> >thrown in. How are you going to compete with that?
>>
>> I think you could. I think if you cook a good size of topside,
>> some potatoes and vegies you could sell one meal easily
>> for $ 5.50 and make a profit.
>
>Yes, a roast you CAN do... sausages, salad and a dollop of mash
>produces very good profit too even at $3.00 - provided labour isn't
>taken into account. BUT the killer is the residual - the unsold stuff
>that cannot be used the next day. That is were you lose your profits
>really fast. I have been involved with catering - expecting sales of
>around 400 "serves", but only getting 200-250, and that's it - NIL
>profit even the occasional loss and a hard days yakka for 3-4 people.
>
>Events where that kind of sales eventuate require a function of some
>size.
True, the waste has to be somehow arrested.
>> >
>> >They don't have Coles and Wollies (or equivalent) there do they?
>>
>> No, these big fellows seem to be either desinterested or did not go
>> there yet. I have seen the German ALDI market there (which is setting
>> up in Australia now too). They are extremely cheap.
>>
>> The "supermarkets" I have seen there looked to me more than a
>> very large size milk bar.
>
>Ahhh... yes that is the old way - the hangover for the past.
I don't think so. When you go to the markets which operate every day
(and there are a bloody lot of them) you cab buy things that cheaply
that a supermarket can't compete because of their costs associated
with a shop.
In Odessa I found that really only well off people bought in
"supermarkets" = shops because they were too lazy to go
to the markets. The majority goes to the markets.
I have the impression there are not enough potential customers
to warrant a company like Woolworth/Safeway to set up there.
>>
>> Mind you, when you buy things on the market the stuff is that cheap that
>> I think the large supermarket chains could not compete because they
>> would not get enough return on their investment at the moment.
>> However, that could change in the future.
>
>Of course they would - not yet perhaps, but don't forget the people
>selling the produce they have been picking it from sometime at 3 - 4
>am, and then be at the market all day as well. I'm sure they they
>would be MUCH happier selling everything in one go and then go home by
>9 am.
Ok, I don't know what the future brings...
>
>These people work damned hard and long for the little they get, and I
>tell you they don't live in any flash high rise apartments.
No, but they make a living - better than having them all sitting on
the dole like here.
>> >> Ok, why? I found it very convenient to buy a drink at the busstop.
>> >
>> >Too lazy to take the few steps back to the shop behind you? You would
>> >loose your place in the queue? You didn't mind spilling hot coffee on
>> >you when rattling along in the bus?
>>
>> Yes, particularly if it could provide someone else with an income which
>> in the end saves me taxes for welfare?
>
>But you won't get anyone doing it here, besides people would not use
>them here either.
Don't you thinks so?
People are lazy and avoid walking to a shop....
>>
>> I don't buy coffee to drink in the bus, I buy an appropriate drink.
>
>I always had a cup of coffee driving to work in the car. All you had
>to do was tilt the cup going around bends in the road :-)
Hahahaha, I like that!
>
>[..]
>> >It isn't about that, but preservation of fish stock. A sustainable
>> >harvesting issue.
>>
>> But how come that it works with countries which got a lot more
>> population and less fish stocks?
>
>It doesn't! Former USSR has really stuffed up their inland fisheries
>badly already.
I wonder where they get all the fish on the markets and in the
shops from....?
>>
>> I just can't work that out! Surely Australians are not dumber or
>> more ignorant than others?
>
>We have also been too bloody ignorant for too long. Over fishing has
>taken place here too.
>[..]
>> >>
>> >> Sorry, Seppo, you misunderstood. Those fishermen are not amateurs,
>> >> they do it for a living with proper boats.
>> >
>> >Damned right it was an amateur with nothing more that a 15 footer! He
>> >lived (recently died) up the road a bit. There are many with boats and
>> >nets - though they are now being curtailed, last I heard, only allowed
>> >two 75 ft nets - should be banned totally and may have been since.
>> >There are also bag limits - per boat and/or person - depending on
>> >species. Fishing is the most popular recreational sport there is in
>> >Australia.
>>
>> I wasn't talking about Australia.
>
>I don't know what they do about controls on their fishery activities
>to regulate it. All I know is that they have taken on the task of
>attempt to remedy the past destruction - but with little money for
>anything, they are pushing shit uphill with a pointy stick. Several
>animal species are near extinction, or already so over there too.
That is true.
>
>[..]
>
>> >> All for the benefit of whom?
>> >
>> >For everyone. What is the point of fishing to a total depletion?
>> >Nothing for professionals OR amateurs then.
>>
>> But why does it all work in other countries?
>
>Like I said, it doesn't. They have problems too.
I wonder because I haven't seen any evidence of that.
>
>[..]
>> >> In the Euopean part of Russia, yes. Mind you, I found no shortage
>> >> of Sturgeon Caviar in Ruddia and the Ukraine. In Odessa I paid
>> >> 12 Grivna = $ AUS 4.- for 250 grams.
>> >
>> >Much overrated muck in any case. Don't like it. Give me ordinary Cod
>> >roe instead in a nice mixture of a mayonnaise of some sort... can be
>> >purchased here. It comes in like toothpaste tubes and costs about
>> >$6.25 a tube.
>>
>> I liked it but yes, it is over-rated. Mind you, black bread with butter
>> and caviar and a good bottle of Odessa or Crimea champagne
>> go down rather well.
>
>Naaaahhh.... a good french roll or two, nice hunk of cheese (not that
>plastic kids love -cheddar.. ugh) and a nice bottle of red.....
>sitting on a hillside overlooking a sound shell, listening to
>Beethoven's 5th....
Not a bad idea either provide the chese is Australian made
Edam (the Dutch muck tasts like lamppost....
>>
>> The Ukrainian wodka (with some kind of a plant looking like a chilli
>> inside) tasts terrific. I wonder why the bastards don't export that
stuff.
>
>Umm.. yes their Vodka is good, had a glass or two... Don't know that
>one... could it be something with an aniseed flavouring? You know the
>stuff that grows wild on the road sides here, and the council sprays
>with weed killers.... Fennel!
No, the stuff I love has just one piece of "vegie" in it which looks like
a chilli but isn't one.
By the way, pity that the councils spray fennel. I just paid $ 7.-
for a packet with 50 tea-bags of fennel tea which was made in
the USA.....
>
>> >Why would they sell the caviar internally for? They get some $US
>> >140/kg for exporting it (there must be a lot of mugs in the world).
>> >They are also desperate for foreign currency.
>>
>> I understand that they have some law that some percentage of local
>> produce must be sold inside the country at a price the people can
>> afford. Somebody mentioned that to me.
>
>That makes sense.. otherwise they wouldn't get any :-)
I wish they would do the same here with prawns....
>>
>> I'm not quite sure how that works. I only paid for a bottle of Crimea
>> champagne 14 Grivna in Odessa ($ 4.60) and in germany the same
>> bottle costs about DM 60 = approx. $ AUS 60.
>
>The costs are taxes, transport, operating costs and profit. The
>Germans aren't underpaid from what I hear.
Not really, no.
>>
>> >> The people there seems to be healthier than us! They are fitter, they
>> >> are a lot slimmer and you don't hear about people getting ill
anywhere.
>> >
>> >"Seems" is the operative word. "Slimmer" means they eat less - work
>> >harder!! You don't see them when they are sick - they stay home and
>> >out of sight. What is their life expectancy there?
>>
>> I don't have the impression they eat much less. I found that they eat
>> a hot meal when we have lunch and only workers coming home
>> in the evening eat warm in the evening.
>
>That is less than for many of us here, but then obesity IS getting to
>be a problem here.
True, obesity I have not seen much there. The fat people there
has some kind of a medical problem.
>>
>> Yes, you are right, they work a lot harder.
>>
>> I have seen a lot of old people and I have met some (parents of people
>> I had to deal with). I was quite surprised. In many areas they get very
>> old apparently. The funny thing is that 80 years old still work on a
piece
>> of land and most oldies live happily without homecare services.
>
>So do people on the land here too - not that they NEED to but you
>can't keep them away. Like a friend, both hip joints have been
>replaced, age 81 and he fell out of a fruit tree he had climbed to
>prune. He was a bit sore and sorry and laid him low for a week, then
>he was back on the tractor again...
Good on him.
>>
>> I don't know the average life expentancy but I was told most get very
old.
>> There are a lot of 80 years old people and, embarrassing enough, I was
>> even told that most of them still "root like rabbits". Hahahaha
>
>They brag a lot too :-)
>
>One of my first customers here said to me "Now, young man, don't take
>too long over it, I want to see it before I go"... She was 80, and I
>could have sworn she couldn't be more than 60!! Technically our bodies
>are made to last between 90 and 100 years, after that it is knackerd
>biologically and won't last. Life expectancy has a lot to do with not
>the people who manage to evade the pitfalls of live but the age, when
>all deaths are taken into account, including infant deaths, car,
>industrial etc, accidents. It is this that indicate the "health" of a
>nation.
Definitely true.
>>
>> May be it's the food? They eat a lot of fatty fish (Omega 3 acids) and
>> Ukrainians use very little fat for cooking in contrast to Russians.
>
>That will not hurt.
>>
>> I must admit that I love the Ukrainian or Azerbayan food but I don't
>> like the Russian food that much.
>
>I'm more familiar with standard Russian type fare.
The Russians seem to use too much fat.
>> >Ahhh... glad you mentioned that - insurance is a MUST for the
>> >back-yard producer too. The "benefit" is the sellers, as they derive
>> >their 'living' from it.
>>
>> ...meaning that you have to pay for the privilege to make a living?
>
>Naturally! You ALWAYS do, not matter what. Be you a worker of a boss,
>the same applies. Only the bosses provide much of the protection for
>the workers as well as themselves.
>
>[..]
>> >
>> >Hang on, we are talking about back-yard producers here in Australia.
>> >You don't have the opportunity to lower the prices here. No union is
>> >going to agree to cutting wages. SO what you have is a puny income and
>> >normal costs otherwise. A few home producers - who couldn't sustain
>> >themselves from it anyway will no alter any cost structures.
>>
>>
>> You misunderstood me. I am not saying proces should go down here
>> too.
>
>> They earn less in those countries but the prices are lower too so that
>> under the line they live like us. The only think they can't afford are
>> luxory goods produced in the west.
>
>Try Health costs - Superannuation etc - not many can "afford" such
>either.
Health costs aren't that bad (doctors and pills are cheaper too).
I know someone from Austria who went to Ukraine to get bridgework
on the teeth done. The workmanship of the bridge was excellent
and the money he saved was incredible. A bridge costs $ US 20.- per tooth.
The funniest thing I saw in a pharmacy in Odessa. Bloody Viagra was
on special - $ US 10.- a pack. A freind of mine is chemist here and
he told me the stuff costs about $ AUS 60 here.
>>> >Both Woollies and Coles would survive very well indeed. The home
>>> >grower of things would break even or get a few cents pocket money out
>>> >of it. You have been watching "The good life" on TV too much.
>>>
>>> But why are they not there?
>>
>>Because there was no free enterprise, and only the government could
>>own such.
No, I mean "why are they not there now". The USSR collapsed
well and truely 10 years ago.
>
>> Not any more, Seppo, the USSR does not exist any longer.
>> You want to open a supermarket there you can go right ahead.
>> Aldi is there now!
>
>Yes I know it's over, but it is that there isn't the infrastructure
>from those days in place.
Enough large places to buy and building is cheap. There is no
problem with building permits either. It is less restrictive there than
here.
>>>
>>> Ok, all that protects you. May be we are coming to the point where the
>>> real question is this:
>>> "What is more important, protection or that some have the opportunity
>>> of getting an income?"
>>>
>>> I don't know.
>>
>> >Look at it this way. You as a person cannot cause harm to another - or
>> >you will be liable for that harm. That is what health regulations and
>> >licensing is about - to keep track of businesses, to check on that
>> >they are not "causing harm to another". Again it is preventative
>> >measures - and enabling measures to seek compensation when wrong has
>> >been done. This is missing over there to a large degree.
>
>> Why is it not necessary in other countries? Are Australians more
>> likely to be rip-off artists?
>
>Oh but is exists in a HUGE way in Russia specially, the "Moscow Mafia"
>isn't kiddies fairy tails. A lot of "payola" took place to get medical
>attention - no payola - you wait till those others have been seen to.
I know about the Mafia there.
>
>> In my view a "stuff up" is some action which makes some win and some
lose.
>> A good policy is a win-win situatiion.
>> May be I am a dreamer...?
>
>Such occurrences are rare indeed. For someone to win another has to
>loose.
May be people want that to happen because they enjoy seeing
others feel bad? Satisfies their ego?
>
>> >Anyway to blame "the government" is really blaming yourself - because
>> >of the government we have. It is invalid to say "I didn't vote for
>> >them", as you COULD have done more to prevent them getting elected -
>> >like stand yourself, lobby politicians with your ideas - organise and
>> >form pressure groups..... but if you don't get popular support, you
>> >KNOW you are backing the wrong horse.
>
>> Obviously you are right. May be we Australians are just too placid.
>
>Most everything evolves slowly over time. It is impossible to turn
>something like a lifestyle around very suddenly. The example how hard
>it is, is seen in the former USSR. Even a partial change like to the
>tax system is causing a lot of concern to many people - mostly more
>imaginary than real, but anxiety never the less. In another year or
>so, nobody will even think about it anymore, and wonder what they were
>worrying about.
>
>> By the way, I just heard on the that Alex Putin wants most business
>licensing in Russia canned....
>
>The "Moscow Mafia" wants to control it??
Whilst I am not sure I was told that Putin is not Mafia and that the
Russian Mafia hates Putin....
You see, I met some people who appeared to be quite wealthy
and I couldn't figure out how they make their living. Those
fellows said that Putin should be shot....
Michael
Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC88760...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>
>
>Michael wrote:
>>
>> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC71131...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>> >
>> >
>> >Michael wrote:
>> >>
>> >I think they are probably better off in the Philippines at the moment.
>> >The changes to their economic structure were to fast, and not enough
>> >safety nets. However they didn't really have lot of options from their
>> >pervious super socialist system that was some motherless broke!
>>
>> You are talking about Eastern Europe I presume?
Yes, I do because I want to look at a society and culture more like
the "Australian/European" culture rather than trying to compare
us with an Asian culture which probably developed differently.
Mind you, when I went into that area to engage in some business
hence meeting a lot of people I found that time a big eye-opener.
>
>Former USSR and Russia (as you mentioned - hate to say "communism" as
>some wise guy will only argue "they didn't have true communism...")
Whilst being anything but a communist I have to agree with the notion
that what they had was not communism in it's pure (theoretical)
form.
Mind you, pure communism is an idiotic ideas anyway because it goes
against human nature anyway.
>
>> In Eastern Europe all changes were too fast. Many people there have told
>> me that today they understand that Gorbachov would have been the
>> better choice compared to Yeltsin because Gorbachov wanted to
>> initiate changes slowly.
>>
>> The previous bolshevic system wasn't any better than a totalitarian
>> capitalist state. The ones in power robbed from the rest of the
population.
>> Those poor bastards had no choice before and no choice after....
>> However, things are improving.
>
>That system is doomed to failure because a human isn't an ant or a
>bee. That is the biggest problem - they would have otherwise survived
>even the corruption, and that in itself would have become redundant
>-IF it could have worked that is.... but that is beside the point.
I totally agree. You hit the nail on the head. I understand the system used
to attempt to make people like working bees or ants being squashed
as soon as they stepped out of line.
>>
>> >>
>> >> People there may paint peoples' houses inside and out or renovate
>> >> their flat, landscape peoples' gardens and do all sorts of other work
>> >> without a licence. However, if they do a bodge job they
>> >> don't get paid. If they do damage they have to repair the damage.
>> >> If they haven't got the money to repair the damage they are jailed
>> >> on forced labour and their wages for the labour is used to make good
>> >> their damage.
>> >
>> >Painters don't need a licence here. Gardeners don't need a license
>> >here. Neither are they entitled to get paid if they do a poor job.
>> >They too can be held liable for damages they cause. They don't
>> >necessarily get dumped behind bars for braking a vase in someone's
>> >house while they are painting the inside of it. That is rather
>> >draconian to say the least.
>>
>> Hey, what State do you live in.
>
>SA.
Is that ok in SA? Bloody NSW has all sorts of restrictions.
Now cop this. I was contemplating to get a piece of land and build
a commercial premis at our local airport (owned by the council).
The land was designated for commercial use only. Would you believe,
the council only issued building permits with the providion that no
large company signs advertising the name of the company or what
services they provide anywhere on, next to or in from of the premis.
They said it would be "visual pollution". The only thing allowed is a
sign max. 1 m x 1 m, bot illuminated, next to the entry door.
Obviosuly no company set up there....
Another goody-goody is this. A fellow in the neighbourhood who lost
his job started to custom build furniture and sold it by advertisement.
His place is in a residential area. He got a bloody rude letter from
the council (some neighbours complained) because every day
once or twice a truck from TNT picked up goods. He was threatened
with a fine for conducting a business in a residential area.
Another bloke has a ute. He lost his job and he bought from the
markets fresh vegies and fruit, put it on the ute and sold the stuff
door to door. The police approached him an asked him for some
kind of a licence he did not have because he was not aware of
the need sor a licence. He was fined.
A woman had the idea to prepare food at home and advertise
that people can have the foor home delivered (like pizzas).
Her husband, who lost his job, would deliver the meals.
When she asked for the health regulations she was told that the
health regulations are not the only problem. She was told that
she cannot do this in her house because she lives in an area
zoned "residential" and in such a zone people cannot put up
with a delivery car constantly arriving and leaving.....
May be SA is a bit of a paradise?
>
>> Im NSW a landscaper needs a licence
>> because of him possibly making retaining walls. Ok, a Garderner
>> cutting bushes and moving lawns doen't need a licence either.
>
>Sure there has been an extension to licensing here too. Technically a
>carpet layer has to have a builders licence, as does a curtain maker.
>Both carpets and curtains are supplied in new houses - hence they are
>builders :-)
What about laying carpets or making curtains in existing houses?
>
>That was the case when they were extending the licenses, I don't know
>if they have put a stop to that nonsense now, or people just ignore it
>- probably the latter. Certainly some retaining walls require a
>builder, others don't - depends on their use, size etc.
Exactly.
>
>> Particularly in NSW there is a constant campaign that people should
>> not have any work done by anyone without a Gold Licence
>> idemnifying people through the Builder's Board. Here people would
>> not accep anyone for anything but lawnmoving unless they have
>> a Gold Licence.
>
>Never heard of a "Gold Licence". But have heard of "Gold Credit cards"
No, here builders and such like get a "Gold Licence" from some "Builders'
Licencing Board" and if a builder does crappy work or doesn't finish
the work then there is an insurance which compensates you.
I guess the law was made to protect existing builders?
>:-)
>
>> >> People can set up without restrictions car washes in their house and
>> >> put an advertising sign on their front fence.
>> >
>> >They might, but the the USSR has never had anything but a horrible
>> >reputation for virtual "environmental vandalism", and that car washing
>> >business IS exactly that, unless you have all the right gear to
>> >separate the pollutants from the water first before releasing it.
>>
>> Please don't forget, I made this post for those who recon everyone
>> can just open their front door and start a business. There was
>> that fellow who mentioned even a carwash at home.
>
>There are untold number of businesses people CAN do - even from home.
>Naturally you cannot open business premises in a residential area -
>for obvious reasons. It doesn't mean you need other premises for many
>types of businesses. Not far from my place there is an office in a
>home, doing million $$ sales from there in wine. The important "tools"
>for them are the telephone and fax and a postal service.
You are correct. What I was on about was simply that not all people
have the connections, the expertise and in many cases not the initial
outlay to start.
You see, I am not living in Sydney but in a NSW regional centre.
In the area a lot of business went "belly up" or they centralised
to Sydney. so there is "FA" employment. Those who still have
a job are worried and keep their wallets closed. They just but food
and clothing only when their old clothes basically fall off their bodies.
The only non-food item people buy are things like hair cutters so that
mum can cut hubby's and the kids hair, saves going to the hairdresser.
In the supermarkets the more fancy goods disappeared because people
did not buy them. I love the black European bread and these days
I have to travel to a big city to buy it. In the main street 1/4 of the
shops
are empty and for lease. Landlords just can't find anyone to rent a shop.
If my business would rely on the area I live in I would be out of
business a long time ago. For me it is quite good to operate and
live here because it is cheap (you get a good house on good land
for $ 75,000, you can rent office space now (3 large rooms, fully
self contained) for $ 400.- per calender month and the supermarkets
are about 20% cheaper than anywhere else. Even the petrol is
as cheap as in Sydney itself.
>
>> >There are a number of enterprising people doing things like that.
>> >There is even a couple of brothers who hire themselves out as
>> >"companions" to look after the elderly when they go to the ATM or
>> >shopping - see them safely to where they need to go and back home
>> >again. They charge $20/hr for their service.
>>
>> Sure, but not everyone can do that. If everyone would do that there would
be
>> more carers and elderly....
>
>These two brothers are in Perth. Don't tell me that cities like
>Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane (Adelaide don't need them :-) haven't got
>enough people to support several of this kind of service businesses in
>each city?
Melbourne and Sydney yes, Brisbane I am not too sure. Regional centre -
forget it. However, the highest unemployment is in regional centres.
>
>There were two women who started a specialist toilet and bathroom
>cleaning service - domestic oriented. They now employ other people in
>that business and do commercial premises too. (you know, the places
>where staff are "too good" do so, and the bosses end up doing it
>themselves)
The big cities, yes. In regional centres some of these business were
established but they went bust because people do it all themselves
to save money.
>
(snip)
>> In any case, I did not get ill over there and I have not ever heard
>> about anyone losing his/her life because they ate food which was
>> off. I even have not heard about people suffering from food
>> poisioning like here in Australia when you buy food from the
>> salad bars in delis or the food poisoning which occured in
>> Australia despite of the regulations.
>
>In SA we had a 4 year old girl die from salmonella poisoning, from
>eating Garaboldi salami and many others in hospital - salami I used to
>also eat and never got sick from either. Some were touch and go if
>they would live or not.
>
>There was the Nippy Orange juice that caused salmonella poisoning as
>well. Nobody died from it but quite a number were sick. I'm sure you
>can think of more cases closer to home.
>
>The reason you don't hear about it over there is that they don't HAVE
>the health inspectors with checking on bacteria cultures in salads.
>They also serve different kinds over there. Neither do they have the
>same kind of reporting systems in place to find out if there has been
>outbreaks of it. After all the most common reaction to salmonella
>poisoning is a guts ache and a runny tummy. Such are not uncommon
>there either. Also it does depend on personal immune system
>development. Living in total sterile environment and you are prone
>more to illness because of an under developed immune system.
Seppo, what bugs me somehow is this:
Why does it work in other countries but not in Australia and similar
countries? What are we doing differently or what are we doing wrong?
It just doesn't make sense?
Are we too sloppy? Is it our attitude that we are more prepared to
sell food which is off and don't care?
I don't know the answer but I find it somehow odd that it works
somewhere else but not here?!
>>
>> May be it has something to do with attitudes in Australia?
>> I must admit, compared to in Russia or Ukraine today I don't
>> get any service in any Australian shop or restaurant. Compared
>> to there shop-staff and waiters in restaurants are extremely
>> unhelpful.
>
>??? Where the hell were you? Some tourist place? You certainly don't
>get that in Moscow from the reports I have seen. Surly old mammas
>lazily point you to a ticket machine to take a number. (only 3 people
>in the shop) After 10 minutes your number gets called, and you ask for
>(whatever), they don't have it but you purchase an alternative
>instead. Then you attempt to pay, and get pointed to another area,
>with the same surly attitude that hasn't changed, to where you pay.
I stayed in Odessa for three month on business three times and
I had to travel to Kiev, Vinnitsa, then to Moscow, St. Petersburg
as well as to several other provincial cities.
You see, I had to buy a few aeroplanes there (I got two YAK 52 trainer
which was mothballed for $ US 5,200 each would you believe....)
I never had these experiences. I must admit that things were slower
in Moscow and St. Petersburg but I was surprised about the
services and attention I got anywhere else.
>
>There you always take a "just in case" bag with you whenever to go
>anywhere. It is called that, because just in case you see something in
>a shop to buy!! Things are changing in Moscow not, but at the expense
>of outlying areas that are being ignored and robbed of funds.
I never had that experience. Mind you, I went to that area the first
time only in 1998.
Last time I was there (November) I found that life in Russia seems to
improve
a lot.
>>
>> Mind you, that's just as a comparison. They have different attitudes
>> over there. They are what they call "accurate" meaning that you are
>> a total slob is your hair is not totally tidy even in windy conditions
>> (the coumb their hair every 2 minutes), im a restaurant it is absolutely
>> abhorrent if a waiter gives you a cup of coffee and the handle of the
>> cup does not point toward your right hand.
>
>Bad luck if you're left handed...
Hahahahahaha! Good thought!
>
>> That causes complaints to
>> the manager and a waiter can get the sack over that, women wash the
>> dishes immediately after a meal because only "pigs" have a flat
>> in which is does not look like a furniture shop display, ashtrays are
>> emptied immediately one extinguishes a cigarette....
>
>"Manager"??? Hey I thought you were talking about locals, small
>enterprises and street vendors. Not luxury hotels.
No, restaurants employing a few waiters. Most of the small restaurants
I went to seem to have between one and three waiters employed.
>>
>> Actually, Seppo, that sterility can somehow get on your wig....
>>
>Constant action doesn't always equate to "sterility" :-)
No, but it's just too much. When I visited people in their homes
I didn't dare initially to sit down or touch anything. Their flats
or houses looked like a showroom.
Mind you, I must admit that after a few vodkas I lost my inhibitions....
>
>Water that you can keep your hands in is less than 60% C, and a haven
>for bacteria to grow in! SO is soap! Then there is "the dish cloth" -
>the biggest sinner in most every kitchen. They get used to wipe
>anything from dishes, to spills on the floor - they get left in a nice
>warm, damp state and left on a cutting board used for food preparation
>- and used to wipe the cutting board with.... No apparent cleanliness
>certainly is not "sterility".
In the flat I lived in in Odessa I burned my fingers under the hot water tap
(hot water is supplied centrally). Mind you, I noticed that most people
wiped
all surfaces and used proper cleaning materials like us (unfortuantelly
most of the stuff seems to be imported from Germany - I would have
liked to see more Australian goods there). They all put the towels
and other cleaning cloth on the funny central heating radiators in the
kitchen.
>
>Think of it. A good meal can be bought for $5.50 at a market. Pizza
>home delivered for $19 to feed 4 with a 1.25 liter bottle of drink
>thrown in. How are you going to compete with that?
I think you could. I think if you cook a good size of topside,
some potatoes and vegies you could sell one meal easily
for $ 5.50 and make a profit.
>
>Many years ago now, in London there was a place that sold stew (well
>known place but can't remember the name of it). Nothing but the stew -
>no menu - only the stew. There were queues waiting to get in. You sat
>wherever there was a bum space on long benches by equally long tables.
>The cost of the feed was 25p and no worries you didn't go hungry, and
>it was damned good - in comparison a single piece of KFC and small bag
>of chips cost 21-24p at the same time. There might be an opportunity
>here for something like that. I think they would have been raking in
>fortunes there.
Good point!
>>
>> I was really surprised.
>>
>> >>
>> >> People can set up street stalls on the roadside where they may
>> >> sell anything. Many people set up a stall next to a bus stop or
>> >> a tram stop or near a taxi stand. Most people set up a stall in
>> >> a place where others set up a stall which produces a big kind of
>> >> bazaar.
>> >
>> >You can here too. They are all over the place. Usually weekly of
>> >bi-weekly. Some are only monthly.
>>
>> There they are running every day and almost on every second
>> street corner.
>
>They don't have Coles and Wollies (or equivalent) there do they?
No, these big fellows seem to be either desinterested or did not go
there yet. I have seen the German ALDI market there (which is setting
up in Australia now too). They are extremely cheap.
The "supermarkets" I have seen there looked to me more than a
very large size milk bar.
Mind you, when you buy things on the market the stuff is that cheap that
I think the large supermarket chains could not compete because they
would not get enough return on their investment at the moment.
However, that could change in the future.
>
>> Again, where do you live? In NSW there are only few designated places,
>> for everything you need a council permit which costs a fortune
>> and often yoiu don't get it.
>
>Well that's your fault for picking a lousy state to live in :-)
>But I'm sure you are wrong. Sydney would have several markets - after
>all that is where the shops go at 4 am to purchase their fresh fruit &
>veg from. Maybe some Sydneysider can tell us more about that. There
>are the so called "trash and treasure markets" all over the place. You
>get home produce at those.
Yes, Sydney has a fe markets but not the permanent thing as far as
I am aware of.
>I suspect they exist there too - probably in many places. Anyway
>Ballarat is only 1 hour out of Melbourne. Melbourne does have a huge
>produce market - been there at 6 am (I don't like getting up early)
>Adelaide has Central Market - open every day (not sure about Sundays)
>and there are other markets dotted around the place.
I have got the impression that Adelaide is not a bad place to live?!
>>
>> ....and if I want to buy a few really fresh red tomatoes why can't I do
>> that on Tuesday afternoon and have to waut to Thursday or Saturday
>> until there is a market? What's wrong with permanency?
>
>...because the tomato was ripe on Monday and no bloody good on
>Tuesday! Again this was about back-yard operations. Don't you know
>that fruit all ripens at once? One day it is all ripe, next day - make
>puree out of it. The Central Market and that kind are seriously
>commercial operations.
I know what you mean but what I enjoyed was that people only
sold the good stuff.
>
>> >There are people who do nothing but travel around a circuit of these
>> >markets all year round.
>> >>
>> >> Advantage for the earners:
>> >> You can buy a pare or a coke cheap waiting for a bus or a tram.
>> >> You can buy a quick snack at the bus-stop if you feel hungry.
>> >> You can leave your flat or house, cross the street and quickly
>> >> buy some bread, some butter, some biscuits and many other
>> >> things. When you drive home you can stop on a roadside
>> >> stall and buy quickly a few tomatoes, apples, whatever you fancy.
>> >
>> >You can already do all of that, but you may have to take two or three
>> >step to do so. You might also have to think about it before you get to
>> >the bus stop, and hop into a shop on your way.
>>
>> Ok, why? I found it very convenient to buy a drink at the busstop.
>
>Too lazy to take the few steps back to the shop behind you? You would
>loose your place in the queue? You didn't mind spilling hot coffee on
>you when rattling along in the bus?
Yes, particularly if it could provide someone else with an income which
in the end saves me taxes for welfare?
I don't buy coffee to drink in the bus, I buy an appropriate drink.
>
>> >> Go to the bazaars and you can buy everything your heart desires
>> >> for only little money. Much of the produce is home grown and all
>> >> is fresh. None of the produce is grown with chemicals (people can't
>> >> afford to buy chemicals). You can buy home made jams, home made
>> >> salty gurkins, home made fermented cabbage (Germans call it
>> >> sauerkraut) directly out of the vat.
>> >
>> >As I said you already CAN, right now.
>>
>> ...but not whenever I want to...?
>
>A recent study indicated that people no longer do a "weekly shop" but
>are purchasing daily requirements. So they do manage daily even here.
>Learn to PLAN :-)
Why? Just to protect existing business from open slatter competition?
>
>> >
(snip)
>> How come then that nobody gets poisoned there and even in other
>> countries? Why do people only get poisoned in countries like
>> USA and Australia?
>
>It isn't about that, but preservation of fish stock. A sustainable
>harvesting issue.
But how come that it works with countries which got a lot more
population and less fish stocks?
I just can't work that out! Surely Australians are not dumber or
more ignorant than others?
>>
>> >
>> >I have heard of people netting, and they talk about not how many fish,
>> >but how many DOZEN they get, and one person said he netted 75 DOZEN
>> >garfish! That is for a family of TWO only. No, I don't think amateur
>> >fishermen should be allowed ANY nets at all.
>>
>> Sorry, Seppo, you misunderstood. Those fishermen are not amateurs,
>> they do it for a living with proper boats.
>
>Damned right it was an amateur with nothing more that a 15 footer! He
>lived (recently died) up the road a bit. There are many with boats and
>nets - though they are now being curtailed, last I heard, only allowed
>two 75 ft nets - should be banned totally and may have been since.
>There are also bag limits - per boat and/or person - depending on
>species. Fishing is the most popular recreational sport there is in
>Australia.
I wasn't talking about Australia.
>
>> >No bloody sport in that
>> >anyway. Secondly it depletes fish stocks, and ruins markets for the
>> >professionals who are already restricted in their catch sizes for many
>> >types of fish.
>>
>> All for the benefit of whom?
>
>For everyone. What is the point of fishing to a total depletion?
>Nothing for professionals OR amateurs then.
But why does it all work in other countries?
>
>> >The Russians have damned near managed to kill off their Sturgeon in
>> >the wild and it is now farmed. Their rivers are seriously polluted
>> >from industry, making restocking of it difficult too. Where they
>> >manage to do so poaching is depleting them before they grow to a
>> >proper size...
>>
>> In the Euopean part of Russia, yes. Mind you, I found no shortage
>> of Sturgeon Caviar in Ruddia and the Ukraine. In Odessa I paid
>> 12 Grivna = $ AUS 4.- for 250 grams.
>
>Much overrated muck in any case. Don't like it. Give me ordinary Cod
>roe instead in a nice mixture of a mayonnaise of some sort... can be
>purchased here. It comes in like toothpaste tubes and costs about
>$6.25 a tube.
I liked it but yes, it is over-rated. Mind you, black bread with butter
and caviar and a good bottle of Odessa or Crimea champagne
go down rather well.
The Ukrainian wodka (with some kind of a plant looking like a chilli
inside) tasts terrific. I wonder why the bastards don't export that stuff.
I liked more food like minced and spiced chicken mince cooked
wrapped in cabbage leafs. Mind you, it makes you fart like a foghorn....
>
>Why would they sell the caviar internally for? They get some $US
>140/kg for exporting it (there must be a lot of mugs in the world).
>They are also desperate for foreign currency.
I understand that they have some law that some percentage of local
produce must be sold inside the country at a price the people can
afford. Somebody mentioned that to me.
I'm not quite sure how that works. I only paid for a bottle of Crimea
champagne 14 Grivna in Odessa ($ 4.60) and in germany the same
bottle costs about DM 60 = approx. $ AUS 60.
>> The people there seems to be healthier than us! They are fitter, they
>> are a lot slimmer and you don't hear about people getting ill anywhere.
>
>"Seems" is the operative word. "Slimmer" means they eat less - work
>harder!! You don't see them when they are sick - they stay home and
>out of sight. What is their life expectancy there?
I don't have the impression they eat much less. I found that they eat
a hot meal when we have lunch and only workers coming home
in the evening eat warm in the evening.
Yes, you are right, they work a lot harder.
I have seen a lot of old people and I have met some (parents of people
I had to deal with). I was quite surprised. In many areas they get very
old apparently. The funny thing is that 80 years old still work on a piece
of land and most oldies live happily without homecare services.
I don't know the average life expentancy but I was told most get very old.
There are a lot of 80 years old people and, embarrassing enough, I was
even told that most of them still "root like rabbits". Hahahaha
May be it's the food? They eat a lot of fatty fish (Omega 3 acids) and
Ukrainians use very little fat for cooking in contrast to Russians.
I must admit that I love the Ukrainian or Azerbayan food but I don't
like the Russian food that much.
>
>> Seppo I lived there amonst the locals because i was there for
>> business purposes. I rented a flat and lived like them.
>
>Sure, why not. Mate of mine, an Aussie who was a cop in Hong Kong,
>lived in a flat too (in the rich area, it was provided as part of the
>job) He went across to the markets where the locals shopped, and ate
>there and bought his food there. I can't recall him complaining of
>anything other than the occasional guts ache (that he blamed on the
>spices).
Exactly.
>
>> >> There are bazaars where people sell there handicraft and artwork.
>> >> It is mind-blowing. Tourists flow in just to buy artwork.
>> >
>> >You have them here too...
>>
>> But not of that size and to that extent and what they sell here is often
>> commercially made in f...ing China.
>
>Of course you have the junk side as well. But there is an amazing
>amount of jewellery made right here by local small time artisans.
>There are art and crafts like pottery, musical instruments, sculpture
>toys etc etc... all locally made. There are arts festivals all over
>the place, paintings sculptures etc. You need to get out a bit more,
>have a look around - its there.
Why don't they make a big permanent market and put it into the
tourist publications?
>
>> >> The bazaars became a tourist attraction and provide a lot of
>> >> income for the people and the country.....
>> >
>> >same here....
>>
>> Are they here listed in tourist pampflets as "must see"?
>
>Yes. And this weekend there is a big food and produce festival in the
>Barossa - also in the brochures. Not to mention the Adelaide 500 - for
>the tin-top V8's.
Adelaide becomes more and more attractive for me.....
(snip)
>> Yes, you are right of course. However, insurance costs and, in my humble
>> view,
>> the costs should be born by those who benefit and not by others.
>
>Ahhh... glad you mentioned that - insurance is a MUST for the
>back-yard producer too. The "benefit" is the sellers, as they derive
>their 'living' from it.
...meaning that you have to pay for the privilege to make a living?
>>
>> I don't agree with the standard of living bit. Low prices go around
>> everywhere. A breadloaf costs there 6 cents. Flat rent costs $ US 40.-
>> a month, They earn on average $ US 150 to 200 a month = they have
>> the same standard of living as us.
>
>Hang on, we are talking about back-yard producers here in Australia.
>You don't have the opportunity to lower the prices here. No union is
>going to agree to cutting wages. SO what you have is a puny income and
>normal costs otherwise. A few home producers - who couldn't sustain
>themselves from it anyway will no alter any cost structures.
You misunderstood me. I am not saying proces should go down here
too.
They earn less in those countries but the prices are lower too so that
under the line they live like us. The only think they can't afford are
luxory goods produced in the west.
For example, many women (a lot less men) dream about living and
working in western countries because then they can afford Italian
made fashion, for example. They can afford luxuries.
By the way, that is not the main reason why many Eastern European
women want to marry western men by the way. The local men
treat their women often like shit.
>>
>> Ukrainian women do not wear clothes made in China, they wear only
>> good Italian and German fashion.
>
>Hey, not everything from either Italy or Germany is "good quality".
>They both have mass produced goods, some better than others - and so
>varies the price too. Should have a peek into Beneton's factory (the
>clothing - not the race car). Not a hell of a lot of people work there
>you know. Automated and computerised to the hilt!
I know that, you know that but tell that to the average women.
Let's face it, a lot of women look at the price label. A dress costing
$ 150 is better than a dress costing $ 50.-
I think there is more to the whole situation than quality! The old
"ego" and "show-off" gets into the act, I think.
>
>> >> The trader? No, because things are cheap people can afford
>> >> more and the trader makes a good income because he sells
>> >> more (less profit per peace but higher turnover = more accumulated
>> >> profit under the line).
>> >
>> >Ah, come on! You are talking minuscule volumes here -ie HIGH COST
>> >production. Whilst your theory is right, fo MASS PRODUCTION and HIGH
>> >VOLUME sales - you are dead WRONG for a back yard producer.
>>
>> The cost of production is not high, we are not talking about TV sets.
>
>It doesn't matter WHAT it is. If you grow only 20 tomato plants and
>expect to make a living from that - it is HIGH. The same ONE person
>can grow an acre of them - the cost is low (in comparison).
But you need more land and probably a labour force.
>
>> >> The Government? May be a little because they miss out on revenue
>> >> due to licence fees and other charges but the Government saves
>> >> a lot of welfare and they have more tax revenue. Under the line
>> >> the Government probably breaks even.
>> >
>> >Their greatest loss would be from income taxes and GST revenue loss.
>> >Then they would have to INCREASE taxes.... making things less
>> >affordable.... increasing prices... higher wage demands... etc etc
>>
>> Ok, but why is that not happening there?
>
>It is.
>
>> >> Big multinationals and big business? Definitely yes! Woolworth
>> >> and Coles would not be able to compete or would make
>> >> a lot less profit to the point where they might feel it would
>> >> not be worthwhile to set up there. The only supermarket
>> >> chain which can survive there is the German Aldi group.
>> >
>> >Both Woollies and Coles would survive very well indeed. The home
>> >grower of things would break even or get a few cents pocket money out
>> >of it. You have been watching "The good life" on TV too much.
>>
>> But why are they not there?
>
>Because there was no free enterprise, and only the government could
>own such.
Not any more, Seppo, the USSR does not exist any longer.
You want to open a supermarket there you can go right ahead.
Aldi is there now!
>They seemed to have weird ways of doing things. Self Service
>was not popular as it reduced worker numbers required. After all the
>government decided what job you were going to do, and it was up to
>them to allocate jobs to people - they needed the positions. Part of
>why the system fell in a hole. Though I suspect major cities probably
>did have them.
That's all over now.
>
>> >> Yes, the rip-off merchants cannot survive there! Big business
>> >> has to compete, they cannot "kick out" the small ones because
>> >> there are too many of them and the population likes to buy
>> >> of the small stalls because their produce is fresher and cheaper.
>> >
>> >So a store that uses "loss leaders" to attract customers, and only
>> >makes around 1 to 1.5% profit on the goods, the rest comes from
>> >renting shelf space, is going to be thrown out by the little people
>> >:-)
>>
>> I did not say that.
>
>I'm pointing to WHY it can't happen. But take note that speciality
>stores live happily next to supermarkets - in fact require the
>supermarkets to bring them the customers.
I agree to that but I was not talking about specialty stores.
>> >> Looking at that I can only say that the Australian business
>> >> environment is set up to protect the rich and powerful, the
speculators
>> >> and otherwise not productive and useless individuals.
>> >> Australia protects the "establishment" and keeps others down.
>> >
>> >Oh SURE it does.... there are no such things as consumer protection
>> >Laws... health regulations ensuring safe products only are sold...
>> >codes of conduct... minimum standards requirements... no, none of that
>> >exists at all...
>>
>> Ok, all that protects you. May be we are coming to the point where the
>> real question is this:
>> "What is more important, protection or that some have the opportunity
>> of getting an income?"
>>
>> I don't know.
>
>Look at it this way. You as a person cannot cause harm to another - or
>you will be liable for that harm. That is what health regulations and
>licensing is about - to keep track of businesses, to check on that
>they are not "causing harm to another". Again it is preventative
>measures - and enabling measures to seek compensation when wrong has
>been done. This is missing over there to a large degree.
Why is it not necessary in other countries? Are Australians more
likely to be rip-off artists?
>
>> >> No wonder there is now as much poverty in Australia and the
>> >> USA as it is in poor Eastern European countries. Give it another
>> >> 5 years continuing our current policies and you will see Australians
>> >> and Americans emigrate to Eastern Europe because of better
>> >> opportunities. May be it's time you go to some school and learn
>> >> Russian, tovarish....
>> >
>> >.... and better learn how to live on $150 a month, that is what
>> >DOCTORS get paid there -if they are lucky.
>>
>> I can live there very comfortably on $ 150.- a week!
>
>That was a MONTH - not a week. The figure is a recent figure at that.
I said that I personally can! In fact, I would live like a king.
>>
>> You must compare cheese with cheese. Your standard of living is
>> determined by both income vs prices and not only income.
>
>No, it is far more than that. It also includes Services and social
>benefits. Something that is missing over there.
We haven't got many social services any more here either and
I understand that Johnny in Canberra wants to basically can social
services anyway.
>>
>> >>
>> >> Sad, really, Australia has so much potential. Why do Governments
>> >> on all levels keep fucking it up?
>> >
>> >Governments DON'T - dreamers only THINK they do :-)
>>
>> Don't they?
>
>No they don't. You may disagree with the way they do things, but that
>doesn't mean "government stuffs it up". There are often a number of
>ways that achieves the same outcome - it is the METHOD people often
>object to, not the outcome. Certainly I would suggest your ideas here
>about unravelling and dissolving consumer protection would "stuff up"
>things big time - and nobody would give such ideas enough votes to win
>government with.
Stuff up for whom?
In my view a "stuff up" is some action which makes some win and some lose.
A good policy is a win-win situatiion.
May be I am a dreamer...?
>
>Anyway to blame "the government" is really blaming yourself - because
>of the government we have. It is invalid to say "I didn't vote for
>them", as you COULD have done more to prevent them getting elected -
>like stand yourself, lobby politicians with your ideas - organise and
>form pressure groups..... but if you don't get popular support, you
>KNOW you are backing the wrong horse.
Obviously you are right. May be we Australians are just too placid.
By the way, I just heard on the that Alex Putin wants most business
licencing in Russia canned....
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ausstu
Michael <spac...@netcentral.com.au> wrote in article
<b3bz6.72$eT2....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net>...
It is unfortunate that there is little or no work in regional areas and
regional businesses like farming no longer create the wealth they once did.
It is unlikely that situation will change no matter who is in government
(Labour, Liberal, democrats, etc aren't going to increase world commodity
prices) So what is the solution, Stay put and continue to collect the dole
when it is clear that the situation won't change or move to a location
where there are better employment opportunities? From the beginning of
time people have moved to where the opportunities are. While this may
create some temporary hardship, in the long term, one is far better off in
a job with some future than on permanent dole where there is no hope of
getting out of the welfare trap. This may not be what people want to hear,
but need to hear.
Seppo Renfors
Michael wrote:
>
> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3ACC317B...@not.ollus.com.au>...
> >
> >
> >Michael wrote:
> >>
> >> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC88760...@not.ollus.com.au>...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >Michael wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC71131...@not.ollus.com.au>...
> >> >> >
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Michael wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >[..]
> >> >>
> (snip)
> >
> >They have them at Parafield.... but I know off a nice private
> >airfield, 3 runways, one of them an all weather strip, automatic
> >lights, a private NDB (was planned at least), hangars (and plenty of
> >vacant space)..... :-)
>
> Where is that one? Is it ok for multi and turboprop ops?
Well.... a Citation has landed there. And a 4 engine old kite with
Gipsy motors (can't remember type at the moment) used it frequently.
It is 5NM SE of Strathalbyn on the Adelaide VTC. Nearer Langhorne
Creek than anything. On the 135 radial from AD IIRC.
>
[..]
> >Oh but that is fair enough. That IS the reason for not allowing
> >businesses like that in back-yards. It is too big for such. He'll need
> >timber and panel stocks (if solid furniture), saws that are noisy,
> >sawdust that will drift around no matter what, guns that are noisy -
> >paint/polish shop that sends fumes all over the neighbourhood.
> >
> >There isn't only the pick-up truck, but delivery vehicles of all
> >kinds, reps customers etc... no that isn't suitable as a "home
> >business". Plenty of small cheap sheds around though for such.
>
> Not here, unfortunately.
Most every town has an industrial area, where sheds are available.
> >> Another bloke has a ute. He lost his job and he bought from the
> >> markets fresh vegies and fruit, put it on the ute and sold the stuff
> >> door to door. The police approached him an asked him for some
> >> kind of a licence he did not have because he was not aware of
> >> the need sor a licence. He was fined.
> >
> >Not sure if any kind of licence is required here for such, but there
> >again he is dealing with food stuffs. NOTE: you mention "markets",
> >there you are they exist your way too :-)
>
> That's true but they only operate one day a week.
Well if that is true, then that bloke couldn't be selling "fresh"
fruit, now could he.
> >> A woman had the idea to prepare food at home and advertise
> >> that people can have the foor home delivered (like pizzas).
> >> Her husband, who lost his job, would deliver the meals.
> >> When she asked for the health regulations she was told that the
> >> health regulations are not the only problem. She was told that
> >> she cannot do this in her house because she lives in an area
> >> zoned "residential" and in such a zone people cannot put up
> >> with a delivery car constantly arriving and leaving.....
> >
> >Somebody simply asked one question too many :-)
>
> Not really, if she violates council regulations I bet you the local
> Pizza Hut manager and the local Macdonals manager will
> dop her in.
Unlikely - and if it did get to the stage it was worth complaining
over, then it would be too big for a "home business".
>
[..]
>
> >
> >> >> Im NSW a landscaper needs a licence
> >> >> because of him possibly making retaining walls. Ok, a Garderner
> >> >> cutting bushes and moving lawns doen't need a licence either.
> >> >
> >> >Sure there has been an extension to licensing here too. Technically a
> >> >carpet layer has to have a builders licence, as does a curtain maker.
> >> >Both carpets and curtains are supplied in new houses - hence they are
> >> >builders :-)
> >>
> >> What about laying carpets or making curtains in existing houses?
> >
> >No problems. There is actually no mandatory requirement for a
> >"builders licence" for these professions, but there has been
> >advertising pushing, "get a licensed carpet layer".... one day a
> >carpet layer is the best and an expert - the next he is "un licensed"
> >and a risk that he may not know what he's doing....
>
> We had the same stuff here. We even got pamphlets delivered home
> by the NSW consumer protection people telling consumers to avoid
> risks and never ever accept any home maintenance from unlicenced
> people.
I don't think people took them too seriously here, and haven't seen
any for a long time now.
>
[..]
> >> >
> >> >Never heard of a "Gold Licence". But have heard of "Gold Credit cards"
> >>
> >> No, here builders and such like get a "Gold Licence" from some "Builders'
> >> Licencing Board" and if a builder does crappy work or doesn't finish
> >> the work then there is an insurance which compensates you.
> >>
> >> I guess the law was made to protect existing builders?
> >
> >Builders do pay into a fund. It is not about "protecting builders" but
> >protecting the builder's customers from those who go broke.
>
> You can only get into such insurance provided you have are a
> builder here. Otherwise insurances don't accept people.
As a builder, you have to be licensed here too, but there are classes
of them some aren't allowed other than renovations up to certain
amounts - I think. These "lesser" builders may not come under that
provision. All new house builders do. However someone not completing a
$5000 job is hardly in the class of someone falling over on a part
finished $100,000 job.
>
[..]
> >
> >Most simple businesses involve going out to the people, making a home
> >based business viable. During the rainy season there are people who go
> >and clean out water tanks from the sediment concentrating on the
> >bottom of them. This is done in winter. All you need is a long hose
> >with a flat plate on the suction end that sits about 2 inches from the
> >bottom of the tank.
>
> True, all already done here and by quite large comanies.
Large companies are easily under cut, without working for nothing.
What's more, you can piggy back on their advertising, using cheap
flyers :-)
>
[..]
> >
> >Well, premises should be able to be had very cheaply then. Many
> >landlords will offer things like 6 months free to assist with start up
> >of a new business.
>
> Gee, I think I pack my bags and come to Adelaide!
>
> My wife would love to oven a restaurant offering Ukrainain cuisine
> (which is bloody tasky and very healthy compared to the Russian muck).
THAT is an area well catered for in Adelaide already. Even our town
has plenty of eating places. In fact it is something Adelaide is well
known for, its high class food and restaurants. I don't know of any
special Ukrainian eating places, but virtually every corner of the
world is represented with cuisine of any note (therefor obviously not
Britain :-).
[..]
> >
> >That's the benefits of living in the rural area. It is a wonder WHY
> >many people bother with the big cities. Same just out from Melbourne,
> >low cost housing in clean beautiful surrounds, within 1 hr travel from
> >the big smoke (literally).
>
> The problem is here that there is absolutely no work.
> Sydney is 2.5 h by car away, there is no train and the nearest city
> (Newcastle) is almost dead too.
> >[..]
> >> >
> >> >These two brothers are in Perth. Don't tell me that cities like
> >> >Melbourne, Sydney, Brisbane (Adelaide don't need them :-) haven't got
> >> >enough people to support several of this kind of service businesses in
> >> >each city?
> >>
> >> Melbourne and Sydney yes, Brisbane I am not too sure. Regional centre -
> >> forget it. However, the highest unemployment is in regional centres.
> >
> >People make employment. There are such cheap properties in rural
> >areas, they can be purchased as holiday houses by the city slickers,
> >and have a relaxing bit of country life, even if people don't
> >permanently move there - that way they would have a nice place to
> >retire too as well. It adds to the economy. Some smaller places in SA
> >have managed to reverse the trends. One place has no empty shops in
> >their town anymore, from having had a a few (somewhere on Eyre
> >Peninsular, towards Minnipa - Streaky Bay, can't remember which one).
>
Oh, the place was Cummins.... they just held the World Championship
Kalamazoo races there - set a new world at that, over the week end
too. Only pity is that nobody else in the world races Kalamazoos :-)
> I agree. That's the way to go.
>
> Mind you, in our area are no cheap rural properties for sale.
When I say "rural properties", I was referring to houses in smaller
rural town - a bloody farm you have to work - not ideal for a 9 -> 5
office worker exactly!
> >> >There were two women who started a specialist toilet and bathroom
> >> >cleaning service - domestic oriented. They now employ other people in
> >> >that business and do commercial premises too. (you know, the places
> >> >where staff are "too good" do so, and the bosses end up doing it
> >> >themselves)
> >>
> >> The big cities, yes. In regional centres some of these business were
> >> established but they went bust because people do it all themselves
> >> to save money.
> >
> >Sure, but people in close by regional centres can can get their
> >customers in the big smoke.
>
> That is if the big smoke is relatively close. The problem here
> is that the area close enough to the big smoke is heavily
> settled and very expensive.
A guy I used to work with in London for a while travelled 3 hrs in ONE
direction, from one side of London to the other to go to work. He used
to do a lot of overtime as well, but he still managed time to have
SEVEN kids! People in Australia want to work on their own doorstep,
and are not prepared to go where to jobs are.
However, at times CITY contractors go way out into the bush to work.
Why shouldn't it work the other way around as well? I see absolutely
no reason for people NOT going to where the work is - even when it may
mean longer travel.
>
[..]
> >>
> >> I don't know the answer but I find it somehow odd that it works
> >> somewhere else but not here?!
> >
> >We are doing nothing wrong. You look to social security for your
> >answer to why the willingness isn't there. It is quite amazing what
> >people CAN do when they HAVE to. Those countries don't have such
> >protection. Their economies are still behind us and they simply cannot
> >afford such. When you have no money, you have to work.
>
> You could be right but, as I said, there are less restrictions.
...therefor less consumer protection as well.
>
[..]
> >>
> >> You see, I had to buy a few aeroplanes there (I got two YAK 52 trainer
> >> which was mothballed for $ US 5,200 each would you believe....)
> >
> >Oh, I can believe it, but that isn't where the expenses finish is it
> >:-)
> >You didn't fly one home did you.... or you'd be in the Air race (that
> >is is being lead by a pilot I know fairy well :-)
>
> One of them was bought for someone else. I don't know if
> he wants to fly it here. In any case, small aircraft purchased in the USA
> are shipped here as well in most cases.
Some are, but many are flown over here. I know a few people who do
such on a regular basis - specially the second hand aircraft.
> >You have freight, then you have to get a major done here... what about
> >the engine - needs to have a top-end or rebuild before you get an air
> >worthiness certificate? What about the avionics? What about spares?
> >Bend one of them here and where the hell do you get parts? Perhaps one
> >is for parts ;-)
>
> Still cheaper than buying here.
But SPARES? They surely are a problem.
>
> I found that if you buy a Piper Archer, about 5 years old, in the USA
> you will save a lot of money which is why many people do it. The only
> problem is that many won't service it here because you naughty boy
> did not buy it in Australia.
No such problems here. The local Piper dealers will service it... hell
they fly in second hand machines themselves! There are a number of
"non aligned" service people as well dotted over the countryside.
> >Why not go to Hong Kong and purchase the vehicles many dump in the
> >streets because it is cheaper than registering them (rego cost is very
> >high there)? They even dump Mercedes vehicles over there. A friend
> >used to bring in scooters dumped over there. They do that when rego
> >cost exceeds value of machine - which is very quickly indeed.
>
> Not a bad idea....
Check import duty liabilities first.... better off taking them to NZ,
if you can, they have higher prices on second hand vehicles than we
have.
> >> I never had these experiences. I must admit that things were slower
> >> in Moscow and St. Petersburg but I was surprised about the
> >> services and attention I got anywhere else.
> >
> >With the old system dead they would have had to pull up their socks as
> >well. Besides now individuals, not the State owns businesses. Makes a
> >difference.
>
> Definitely true!
>
[..]
> >> Mind you, I noticed that most people wiped
> >> all surfaces and used proper cleaning materials like us (unfortuantelly
> >> most of the stuff seems to be imported from Germany - I would have
> >> liked to see more Australian goods there). They all put the towels
> >> and other cleaning cloth on the funny central heating radiators in the
> >> kitchen.
> >
> >Know them well.... bloody radiators dry the air and does cause
> >respiratory problems for many. People hang little vases off them with
> >water to replace the humidity lost... but they are also good
> >incubators for bacteria growth on rags :-)
>
> Are they?
Sure, a nice warm environment, just right for the growth of bacteria
:-)
[..]
> >Yes, a roast you CAN do... sausages, salad and a dollop of mash
> >produces very good profit too even at $3.00 - provided labour isn't
> >taken into account. BUT the killer is the residual - the unsold stuff
> >that cannot be used the next day. That is were you lose your profits
> >really fast. I have been involved with catering - expecting sales of
> >around 400 "serves", but only getting 200-250, and that's it - NIL
> >profit even the occasional loss and a hard days yakka for 3-4 people.
> >
> >Events where that kind of sales eventuate require a function of some
> >size.
>
> True, the waste has to be somehow arrested.
>
[..]
> >>
> >> The "supermarkets" I have seen there looked to me more than a
> >> very large size milk bar.
> >
> >Ahhh... yes that is the old way - the hangover for the past.
>
> I don't think so. When you go to the markets which operate every day
> (and there are a bloody lot of them) you cab buy things that cheaply
> that a supermarket can't compete because of their costs associated
> with a shop.
What is "cheap" for the locals, is directly relational to their
income. While something is cheap to you, it may well not be to them.
> In Odessa I found that really only well off people bought in
> "supermarkets" = shops because they were too lazy to go
> to the markets. The majority goes to the markets.
>
> I have the impression there are not enough potential customers
> to warrant a company like Woolworth/Safeway to set up there.
You are most likely right, but the Big Mack and KFC and Coke are
already there. These are very expensive to the local people, but still
do a roaring trade.
>
> >>
> >> Mind you, when you buy things on the market the stuff is that cheap that
> >> I think the large supermarket chains could not compete because they
> >> would not get enough return on their investment at the moment.
> >> However, that could change in the future.
> >
> >Of course they would - not yet perhaps, but don't forget the people
> >selling the produce they have been picking it from sometime at 3 - 4
> >am, and then be at the market all day as well. I'm sure they they
> >would be MUCH happier selling everything in one go and then go home by
> >9 am.
>
> Ok, I don't know what the future brings...
>
> >
> >These people work damned hard and long for the little they get, and I
> >tell you they don't live in any flash high rise apartments.
>
> No, but they make a living - better than having them all sitting on
> the dole like here.
If you were to transplant them here, they would STILL qualify for the
dole :-)
>
> >> >> Ok, why? I found it very convenient to buy a drink at the busstop.
> >> >
[..]
> >
> >But you won't get anyone doing it here, besides people would not use
> >them here either.
>
> Don't you thinks so?
> People are lazy and avoid walking to a shop....
Think of the cost and difficulty of keeping, cans or bottles cold in
summer, and not many want such in winter. There is the problem of
being able to purchase at a low enough price - eg quantity. It is
possible IF you sell more obscure drinks, purchased from a supermarket
when they are on special. It is rare to get the most common drink
-Coke- that way. Food stuffs, that has been exposed to heavy exhaust
fumes from diesel busses and trucks - who would want that?
> >> I don't buy coffee to drink in the bus, I buy an appropriate drink.
> >
> >I always had a cup of coffee driving to work in the car. All you had
> >to do was tilt the cup going around bends in the road :-)
>
> Hahahaha, I like that!
> >
> >[..]
> >> >It isn't about that, but preservation of fish stock. A sustainable
> >> >harvesting issue.
> >>
> >> But how come that it works with countries which got a lot more
> >> population and less fish stocks?
> >
> >It doesn't! Former USSR has really stuffed up their inland fisheries
> >badly already.
>
> I wonder where they get all the fish on the markets and in the
> shops from....?
But you don't know what trouble that have in getting it. Nor do you
know if that was the size they were at decades ago - or quantity.
These things aren't apparent looking at a fish ship. Neither are the
problems apparent in fish shops here.
> >> I just can't work that out! Surely Australians are not dumber or
> >> more ignorant than others?
> >
> >We have also been too bloody ignorant for too long. Over fishing has
> >taken place here too.
[..]
> >
> >I don't know what they do about controls on their fishery activities
> >to regulate it. All I know is that they have taken on the task of
> >attempt to remedy the past destruction - but with little money for
> >anything, they are pushing shit uphill with a pointy stick. Several
> >animal species are near extinction, or already so over there too.
>
> That is true.
> >
> >[..]
> >
> >> >> All for the benefit of whom?
> >> >
> >> >For everyone. What is the point of fishing to a total depletion?
> >> >Nothing for professionals OR amateurs then.
> >>
> >> But why does it all work in other countries?
> >
> >Like I said, it doesn't. They have problems too.
>
> I wonder because I haven't seen any evidence of that.
See above.
> >
[..]
> >> >
> >> >Much overrated muck in any case. Don't like it. Give me ordinary Cod
> >> >roe instead in a nice mixture of a mayonnaise of some sort... can be
> >> >purchased here. It comes in like toothpaste tubes and costs about
> >> >$6.25 a tube.
> >>
> >> I liked it but yes, it is over-rated. Mind you, black bread with butter
> >> and caviar and a good bottle of Odessa or Crimea champagne
> >> go down rather well.
> >
> >Naaaahhh.... a good french roll or two, nice hunk of cheese (not that
> >plastic kids love -cheddar.. ugh) and a nice bottle of red.....
> >sitting on a hillside overlooking a sound shell, listening to
> >Beethoven's 5th....
>
> Not a bad idea either provide the chese is Australian made
> Edam (the Dutch muck tasts like lamppost....
Yes, it is good stuff, but I prefer a Jarlsberg or Emmental - many
King Island cheeses are very good - specially their King Island Blue
[..]
> >Umm.. yes their Vodka is good, had a glass or two... Don't know that
> >one... could it be something with an aniseed flavouring? You know the
> >stuff that grows wild on the road sides here, and the council sprays
> >with weed killers.... Fennel!
>
> No, the stuff I love has just one piece of "vegie" in it which looks like
> a chilli but isn't one.
Probably by the time you got to getting it out of the bottle, you
wouldn't have been able to notice the difference :-)
> By the way, pity that the councils spray fennel. I just paid $ 7.-
> for a packet with 50 tea-bags of fennel tea which was made in
> the USA.....
Just collect it away from road sides. It grows in many other places
too, like creek embankments. It is a much underrated plant here in
Aus.
[..]
> >> >"Seems" is the operative word. "Slimmer" means they eat less - work
> >> >harder!! You don't see them when they are sick - they stay home and
> >> >out of sight. What is their life expectancy there?
> >>
> >> I don't have the impression they eat much less. I found that they eat
> >> a hot meal when we have lunch and only workers coming home
> >> in the evening eat warm in the evening.
> >
> >That is less than for many of us here, but then obesity IS getting to
> >be a problem here.
>
> True, obesity I have not seen much there. The fat people there
> has some kind of a medical problem.
>
[..]
> >> They earn less in those countries but the prices are lower too so that
> >> under the line they live like us. The only think they can't afford are
> >> luxory goods produced in the west.
> >
> >Try Health costs - Superannuation etc - not many can "afford" such
> >either.
>
> Health costs aren't that bad (doctors and pills are cheaper too).
But relationally to their wages/income I would hazard a guess it is
expensive.
> I know someone from Austria who went to Ukraine to get bridgework
> on the teeth done. The workmanship of the bridge was excellent
> and the money he saved was incredible. A bridge costs $ US 20.- per tooth.
Ahh... yes. I can see that being done. But that is due to the relative
difference in costs between the countries, but I wouldn't be surprised
if such trade doesn't increase. Though, it isn't for the immediate
benefit of locals, as the costs will rise to them too as such
cross-border dealings increase. Ultimately it will be beneficial.
>
> The funniest thing I saw in a pharmacy in Odessa. Bloody Viagra was
> on special - $ US 10.- a pack. A freind of mine is chemist here and
> he told me the stuff costs about $ AUS 60 here.
>From what you said earlier, sounded like they didn't NEED it :-)
>
> >>> >Both Woollies and Coles would survive very well indeed. The home
> >>> >grower of things would break even or get a few cents pocket money out
> >>> >of it. You have been watching "The good life" on TV too much.
> >>>
> >>> But why are they not there?
> >>
> >>Because there was no free enterprise, and only the government could
> >>own such.
>
> No, I mean "why are they not there now". The USSR collapsed
> well and truely 10 years ago.
I don't think it is long enough for them to be on more than the road
to recovery.
[..]
> >> Why is it not necessary in other countries? Are Australians more
> >> likely to be rip-off artists?
> >
> >Oh but is exists in a HUGE way in Russia specially, the "Moscow Mafia"
> >isn't kiddies fairy tails. A lot of "payola" took place to get medical
> >attention - no payola - you wait till those others have been seen to.
>
> I know about the Mafia there.
[..]
> >> By the way, I just heard on the that Alex Putin wants most business
> >licensing in Russia canned....
> >The "Moscow Mafia" wants to control it??
> Whilst I am not sure I was told that Putin is not Mafia and that the
> Russian Mafia hates Putin....
Oh, I don't think he is, but I'm sure there are people high up enough
to lean on him a bit :-)
> You see, I met some people who appeared to be quite wealthy
> and I couldn't figure out how they make their living. Those
> fellows said that Putin should be shot....
Yes, because the countryside - the people in the rural areas aren't
being looked after. The recovery isn't fast enough etc etc... no
different there, people blame politicians for things they have little
control over, same as here.
Michael
Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3ACFE079...@bigbond.com>...
>
>
>Michael wrote:
>>
>> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3ACC317B...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>> >
>> >
>> >Michael wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Seppo Renfors wrote in message <3AC88760...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >Michael wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Seppo Renfors wrote in message
<3AC71131...@not.ollus.com.au>...
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Michael wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >[..]
>> >> >>
>> (snip)
>> >
>> >They have them at Parafield.... but I know off a nice private
>> >airfield, 3 runways, one of them an all weather strip, automatic
>> >lights, a private NDB (was planned at least), hangars (and plenty of
>> >vacant space)..... :-)
I found it. I was in Adelaide for the past 4 days and met up with a friend
who is in aviation. He showe me.
>>
>> Where is that one? Is it ok for multi and turboprop ops?
>
>Well.... a Citation has landed there. And a 4 engine old kite with
>Gipsy motors (can't remember type at the moment) used it frequently.
>It is 5NM SE of Strathalbyn on the Adelaide VTC. Nearer Langhorne
>Creek than anything. On the 135 radial from AD IIRC.
Looking at the field I think the bloke with the Citation had some guts
(I wonder if the accelerate stop distance required was there).
>>
>[..]
>> >Oh but that is fair enough. That IS the reason for not allowing
>> >businesses like that in back-yards. It is too big for such. He'll need
>> >timber and panel stocks (if solid furniture), saws that are noisy,
>> >sawdust that will drift around no matter what, guns that are noisy -
>> >paint/polish shop that sends fumes all over the neighbourhood.
>> >
>> >There isn't only the pick-up truck, but delivery vehicles of all
>> >kinds, reps customers etc... no that isn't suitable as a "home
>> >business". Plenty of small cheap sheds around though for such.
>>
>> Not here, unfortunately.
>
>Most every town has an industrial area, where sheds are available.
Haven't seem much around here, I know a bloke who was looking for
one because he wanted a place to weld steel constructions and could
not find a reasonable shed or the rent was that high that him doing the jobs
would not have been worthwhile.
Mind you, that can be a regional problem.
>
>> >> Another bloke has a ute. He lost his job and he bought from the
>> >> markets fresh vegies and fruit, put it on the ute and sold the stuff
>> >> door to door. The police approached him an asked him for some
>> >> kind of a licence he did not have because he was not aware of
>> >> the need sor a licence. He was fined.
>> >
>> >Not sure if any kind of licence is required here for such, but there
>> >again he is dealing with food stuffs. NOTE: you mention "markets",
>> >there you are they exist your way too :-)
>>
>> That's true but they only operate one day a week.
>
>Well if that is true, then that bloke couldn't be selling "fresh"
>fruit, now could he.
Sorry, you misunderstood me.
I was referrig to the markets where he can sell his produce. The market
where he buys the produce is open every morning (the wholesale
produce market).
>
>> >> A woman had the idea to prepare food at home and advertise
>> >> that people can have the foor home delivered (like pizzas).
>> >> Her husband, who lost his job, would deliver the meals.
>> >> When she asked for the health regulations she was told that the
>> >> health regulations are not the only problem. She was told that
>> >> she cannot do this in her house because she lives in an area
>> >> zoned "residential" and in such a zone people cannot put up
>> >> with a delivery car constantly arriving and leaving.....
>> >
>> >Somebody simply asked one question too many :-)
>>
>> Not really, if she violates council regulations I bet you the local
>> Pizza Hut manager and the local Macdonals manager will
>> dop her in.
>
>Unlikely - and if it did get to the stage it was worth complaining
>over, then it would be too big for a "home business".
True. I can't blame the woman though for being afraid of the
$ 10,000 fine....
>>
>[..]
>>
>> >
>> >> >> Im NSW a landscaper needs a licence
>> >> >> because of him possibly making retaining walls. Ok, a Garderner
>> >> >> cutting bushes and moving lawns doen't need a licence either.
>> >> >
>> >> >Sure there has been an extension to licensing here too. Technically a
>> >> >carpet layer has to have a builders licence, as does a curtain maker.
>> >> >Both carpets and curtains are supplied in new houses - hence they are
>> >> >builders :-)
>> >>
>> >> What about laying carpets or making curtains in existing houses?
>> >
>> >No problems. There is actually no mandatory requirement for a
>> >"builders licence" for these professions, but there has been
>> >advertising pushing, "get a licensed carpet layer".... one day a
>> >carpet layer is the best and an expert - the next he is "un licensed"
>> >and a risk that he may not know what he's doing....
>>
>> We had the same stuff here. We even got pamphlets delivered home
>> by the NSW consumer protection people telling consumers to avoid
>> risks and never ever accept any home maintenance from unlicenced
>> people.
>
>I don't think people took them too seriously here, and haven't seen
>any for a long time now.
Gee, people in SAare lucke. Here many are paranoid. I know a
painter and he is constantly asked "are you licenced?"
>>
>[..]
>> >> >
>> >> >Never heard of a "Gold Licence". But have heard of "Gold Credit
cards"
>> >>
>> >> No, here builders and such like get a "Gold Licence" from some
"Builders'
>> >> Licencing Board" and if a builder does crappy work or doesn't finish
>> >> the work then there is an insurance which compensates you.
>> >>
>> >> I guess the law was made to protect existing builders?
>> >
>> >Builders do pay into a fund. It is not about "protecting builders" but
>> >protecting the builder's customers from those who go broke.
>>
>> You can only get into such insurance provided you have are a
>> builder here. Otherwise insurances don't accept people.
>
>As a builder, you have to be licensed here too, but there are classes
>of them some aren't allowed other than renovations up to certain
>amounts - I think. These "lesser" builders may not come under that
>provision. All new house builders do. However someone not completing a
>$5000 job is hardly in the class of someone falling over on a part
>finished $100,000 job.
Different here.
>>
>[..]
>> >
>> >Most simple businesses involve going out to the people, making a home
>> >based business viable. During the rainy season there are people who go
>> >and clean out water tanks from the sediment concentrating on the
>> >bottom of them. This is done in winter. All you need is a long hose
>> >with a flat plate on the suction end that sits about 2 inches from the
>> >bottom of the tank.
>>
>> True, all already done here and by quite large comanies.
>
>Large companies are easily under cut, without working for nothing.
>What's more, you can piggy back on their advertising, using cheap
>flyers :-)
These large companies employ casuals or sell francises. That's the
problem.
>>
>[..]
>> >
>> >Well, premises should be able to be had very cheaply then. Many
>> >landlords will offer things like 6 months free to assist with start up
>> >of a new business.
>>
>> Gee, I think I pack my bags and come to Adelaide!
>>
>> My wife would love to oven a restaurant offering Ukrainain cuisine
>> (which is bloody tasky and very healthy compared to the Russian muck).
>
>THAT is an area well catered for in Adelaide already. Even our town
>has plenty of eating places. In fact it is something Adelaide is well
>known for, its high class food and restaurants. I don't know of any
>special Ukrainian eating places, but virtually every corner of the
>world is represented with cuisine of any note (therefor obviously not
>Britain :-).
I come to Adelaide - I love food!
(snip)
>> >People make employment. There are such cheap properties in rural
>> >areas, they can be purchased as holiday houses by the city slickers,
>> >and have a relaxing bit of country life, even if people don't
>> >permanently move there - that way they would have a nice place to
>> >retire too as well. It adds to the economy. Some smaller places in SA
>> >have managed to reverse the trends. One place has no empty shops in
>> >their town anymore, from having had a a few (somewhere on Eyre
>> >Peninsular, towards Minnipa - Streaky Bay, can't remember which one).
>>
>Oh, the place was Cummins.... they just held the World Championship
>Kalamazoo races there - set a new world at that, over the week end
>too. Only pity is that nobody else in the world races Kalamazoos :-)
>
>> I agree. That's the way to go.
>>
>> Mind you, in our area are no cheap rural properties for sale.
>
>When I say "rural properties", I was referring to houses in smaller
>rural town - a bloody farm you have to work - not ideal for a 9 -> 5
>office worker exactly!
As I said, I just visited SA and it is a paradise in my opinion.
NSW is a rich man's place.
>
>> >> >There were two women who started a specialist toilet and bathroom
>> >> >cleaning service - domestic oriented. They now employ other people in
>> >> >that business and do commercial premises too. (you know, the places
>> >> >where staff are "too good" do so, and the bosses end up doing it
>> >> >themselves)
>> >>
>> >> The big cities, yes. In regional centres some of these business were
>> >> established but they went bust because people do it all themselves
>> >> to save money.
>> >
>> >Sure, but people in close by regional centres can can get their
>> >customers in the big smoke.
>>
>> That is if the big smoke is relatively close. The problem here
>> is that the area close enough to the big smoke is heavily
>> settled and very expensive.
>
>A guy I used to work with in London for a while travelled 3 hrs in ONE
>direction, from one side of London to the other to go to work. He used
>to do a lot of overtime as well, but he still managed time to have
>SEVEN kids! People in Australia want to work on their own doorstep,
>and are not prepared to go where to jobs are.
I guess you are right there if you call 3 hours travel in one direction
ok. That's 6 hours both ways.
For that woman I guess it would mean to leave home at about 5 a.m.
and return at about 10 p.m.
Pity that she is not single without kids....
>
>> You could be right but, as I said, there are less restrictions.
>
>...therefor less consumer protection as well.
May be a "reasonable" balance?
Hahahaha, what I just said reminds me of Dick Smith's
"affordable safety" in aviation....
>>
>[..]
>> >>
>> >> You see, I had to buy a few aeroplanes there (I got two YAK 52 trainer
>> >> which was mothballed for $ US 5,200 each would you believe....)
>> >
>> >Oh, I can believe it, but that isn't where the expenses finish is it
>> >:-)
>> >You didn't fly one home did you.... or you'd be in the Air race (that
>> >is is being lead by a pilot I know fairy well :-)
>>
>> One of them was bought for someone else. I don't know if
>> he wants to fly it here. In any case, small aircraft purchased in the USA
>> are shipped here as well in most cases.
>
>Some are, but many are flown over here. I know a few people who do
>such on a regular basis - specially the second hand aircraft.
I know, bloody good business too.
>
>> >You have freight, then you have to get a major done here... what about
>> >the engine - needs to have a top-end or rebuild before you get an air
>> >worthiness certificate? What about the avionics? What about spares?
>> >Bend one of them here and where the hell do you get parts? Perhaps one
>> >is for parts ;-)
>>
>> Still cheaper than buying here.
>
>But SPARES? They surely are a problem.
Not at all. Parts are still made.
The spare problem is really with Piper and Cessna spares. They
are not hard to come by and are bloody expensive (because of the
low Dollar). The parts are often second hand taken out of other
aircraft.
>>
>> I found that if you buy a Piper Archer, about 5 years old, in the USA
>> you will save a lot of money which is why many people do it. The only
>> problem is that many won't service it here because you naughty boy
>> did not buy it in Australia.
>
>No such problems here. The local Piper dealers will service it... hell
>they fly in second hand machines themselves! There are a number of
>"non aligned" service people as well dotted over the countryside.
Hahahaha, Hawker Pacific told a few people to get stuffed when they
wanted to have imported aircraft fixed. many do now
indeed use independents in country areas.
>
>> >Why not go to Hong Kong and purchase the vehicles many dump in the
>> >streets because it is cheaper than registering them (rego cost is very
>> >high there)? They even dump Mercedes vehicles over there. A friend
>> >used to bring in scooters dumped over there. They do that when rego
>> >cost exceeds value of machine - which is very quickly indeed.
>>
>> Not a bad idea....
>
>Check import duty liabilities first.... better off taking them to NZ,
>if you can, they have higher prices on second hand vehicles than we
>have.
I didn't know that.
(snip)
>> >> The "supermarkets" I have seen there looked to me more than a
>> >> very large size milk bar.
>> >
>> >Ahhh... yes that is the old way - the hangover for the past.
>>
>> I don't think so. When you go to the markets which operate every day
>> (and there are a bloody lot of them) you cab buy things that cheaply
>> that a supermarket can't compete because of their costs associated
>> with a shop.
>
>What is "cheap" for the locals, is directly relational to their
>income. While something is cheap to you, it may well not be to them.
Sure. What is did mean is that if a supermaket would sell the stuff
at the price people can buy it on the markets they might have problems
to cover the ovverheads and make a profit making it worthwhile to
operate.
>
>> In Odessa I found that really only well off people bought in
>> "supermarkets" = shops because they were too lazy to go
>> to the markets. The majority goes to the markets.
>>
>> I have the impression there are not enough potential customers
>> to warrant a company like Woolworth/Safeway to set up there.
>
>You are most likely right, but the Big Mack and KFC and Coke are
>already there. These are very expensive to the local people, but still
>do a roaring trade.
Coke is there. MacDonals is there, KFC I have not seen in Odessa.
>> >These people work damned hard and long for the little they get, and I
>> >tell you they don't live in any flash high rise apartments.
>>
>> No, but they make a living - better than having them all sitting on
>> the dole like here.
>
>If you were to transplant them here, they would STILL qualify for the
>dole :-)
Definitely true. Mind you, given a chance I think they would avoid
having to go on the dole.
I was very surprised about their work ethics and their pride.
Being unemployed seems to be some social stigma for those
buggars. Everyone boasts with their jobs or business. If you
are "on the dole" or live off relations you can't really admit it
or show your face there.
I met someone who hasn't got work and lives with his parents
who feed him. His father aree pensioners but they have a house
in Vinnitsa and there is a bit of land. They supplement their
living by growing produce, they have chicken and even a cow.
The son without work simply says he is employed by his father and
even his parents tell others this "white lie".
>>
>> >> >> Ok, why? I found it very convenient to buy a drink at the busstop.
>> >> >
>[..]
>> >
>> >But you won't get anyone doing it here, besides people would not use
>> >them here either.
>>
>> Don't you thinks so?
>> People are lazy and avoid walking to a shop....
>
>Think of the cost and difficulty of keeping, cans or bottles cold in
>summer, and not many want such in winter. There is the problem of
>being able to purchase at a low enough price - eg quantity. It is
>possible IF you sell more obscure drinks, purchased from a supermarket
>when they are on special. It is rare to get the most common drink
>-Coke- that way. Food stuffs, that has been exposed to heavy exhaust
>fumes from diesel busses and trucks - who would want that?
I think it's all more related to overgeads and, as you said, those people
sell at a price which makes them enough profit to live and not which
buys them luxuries.
>> >> But how come that it works with countries which got a lot more
>> >> population and less fish stocks?
>> >
>> >It doesn't! Former USSR has really stuffed up their inland fisheries
>> >badly already.
>>
>> I wonder where they get all the fish on the markets and in the
>> shops from....?
>
>But you don't know what trouble that have in getting it. Nor do you
>know if that was the size they were at decades ago - or quantity.
>These things aren't apparent looking at a fish ship. Neither are the
>problems apparent in fish shops here.
I don't know. I have only seen the markets and the boats and they
offer ab abundance of fish.
>> >> I liked it but yes, it is over-rated. Mind you, black bread with
butter
>> >> and caviar and a good bottle of Odessa or Crimea champagne
>> >> go down rather well.
>> >
>> >Naaaahhh.... a good french roll or two, nice hunk of cheese (not that
>> >plastic kids love -cheddar.. ugh) and a nice bottle of red.....
>> >sitting on a hillside overlooking a sound shell, listening to
>> >Beethoven's 5th....
>>
>> Not a bad idea either provide the chese is Australian made
>> Edam (the Dutch muck tasts like lamppost....
>
>Yes, it is good stuff, but I prefer a Jarlsberg or Emmental - many
>King Island cheeses are very good - specially their King Island Blue
Hey, you make me go to the shop now! I love Jarlsberg and King Island
Blue.
>
>[..]
>
>> >Umm.. yes their Vodka is good, had a glass or two... Don't know that
>> >one... could it be something with an aniseed flavouring? You know the
>> >stuff that grows wild on the road sides here, and the council sprays
>> >with weed killers.... Fennel!
>>
>> No, the stuff I love has just one piece of "vegie" in it which looks like
>> a chilli but isn't one.
>
>Probably by the time you got to getting it out of the bottle, you
>wouldn't have been able to notice the difference :-)
Ypou don't have the slightest idea how right you are. Gee, the stuff is
deadly! Mond you, I was surprised that I didn't have a handover next
morning.
>
>> By the way, pity that the councils spray fennel. I just paid $ 7.-
>> for a packet with 50 tea-bags of fennel tea which was made in
>> the USA.....
>
>Just collect it away from road sides. It grows in many other places
>too, like creek embankments. It is a much underrated plant here in
>Aus.
I know but why do the shops sell imported stuff weed which grows here
like grass?
>> Health costs aren't that bad (doctors and pills are cheaper too).
>
>But relationally to their wages/income I would hazard a guess it is
>expensive.
I would say, the relationship is similar to here.
>
>> I know someone from Austria who went to Ukraine to get bridgework
>> on the teeth done. The workmanship of the bridge was excellent
>> and the money he saved was incredible. A bridge costs $ US 20.- per
tooth.
>
>Ahh... yes. I can see that being done. But that is due to the relative
>difference in costs between the countries, but I wouldn't be surprised
>if such trade doesn't increase.
Right and right! The price is relative to the local income and the
trade is increasing. They now have a special visa there for
people who come for medical treatment.
>Though, it isn't for the immediate
>benefit of locals, as the costs will rise to them too as such
>cross-border dealings increase. Ultimately it will be beneficial.
Surprisingly enough the Government there has legislated that
some goods (local produce) and services may not be sold
at prices the locals can't afford.
(snip)
>> >>Because there was no free enterprise, and only the government could
>> >>own such.
>>
>> No, I mean "why are they not there now". The USSR collapsed
>> well and truely 10 years ago.
>
>I don't think it is long enough for them to be on more than the road
>to recovery.
No, that will take time and there is still a lot of corruption.
However, I am sure they will make it. I understand that Russia
is on the improve already.
>[..]
>> Whilst I am not sure I was told that Putin is not Mafia and that the
>> Russian Mafia hates Putin....
>
>Oh, I don't think he is, but I'm sure there are people high up enough
>to lean on him a bit :-)
I am sure about that. I understand, however, that old Alex Putin
is as pigheaded as they come. Apparently he has upset a lot of
people. It appears that the people like him and the new establishment
doesn't. The man doesn't seem to take any crap from anyone.
(typical ex-KGB).
>
>> You see, I met some people who appeared to be quite wealthy
>> and I couldn't figure out how they make their living. Those
>> fellows said that Putin should be shot....
>
>Yes, because the countryside - the people in the rural areas aren't
>being looked after. The recovery isn't fast enough etc etc... no
>different there, people blame politicians for things they have little
>control over, same as here.
You are right. Things were buggared up a lot.
Gavin Staples
have been saying.Well done.
Yes its true that governments appear to be difficult. I lived in Australia
for several years in the late 1980s so I can relate to this.
We often moan in Britain about things but as someone in Perth told me 2
years ago when I was visiting.
"When problems occur in countries, these days the problems are seldom in
isolation but more widespread than we think"
I had to agree after thinking for a few moments.
I'll crosspost this to UK politics.
Thanks again for the excellent points you chaps have raised.
GAVIN STAPLES.
Michael <spac...@netcentral.com.au> wrote in message
news:JPty6.54$hl2....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...