Criville is not Popular !
Mark Paemaa
Discussing the Australian GP with a few friends, I came up
with a sequel to the
"Doohan It" bumper stickers
"Kill Criville"
He was just too cutthroat to be a responsible racer.
Well Done Mick - a great year.
--==<Markus>==--
http://streamline.com.au/bike.html
Kevin Gleeson
In article <326B2F...@buseco.monash.edu.au>, Mr R Longmire <Richard....@buseco.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>Peter Howard wrote:
>
>> A bit more info. Apparently (according to today's paper) Creville
>> saw red after turn two where they touched the first time. He considered that
>> coming together to be Doohan's fault.
>>
>> This was obviously in his mind at the last turn. I'd suggest his judgement
>> was out at that point.
Yes, my point exactly. Not vindictive, not deliberate, just sloppy
>I looked at the replay and thought about another desparate move to stuff
>the front rider up the inside... Kevin Schwantz jamming up the inside of
>Wayne Rainey a few years ago. It was a similar move, the rider behind
>carrying way too much speed to get around the corner smoothly, but
>hoping to at least get in front of the other guy and then slow down (in
>the way of the "passee") The difference is that Schwantz got far enough
>to be almost alongside Rainey and Criville didn't.
Again my point is that the two riders are on the same team. They DO have more
to think about more than just winning the race. This is the premiere class in
the world... if you can't allow for that at the end of the race, then maybe
you aren't cut out to be a worthy world chanpion. BUT I think Creville is a
future champ. He is just getting frustrated because he is up against someone
who is dominating like no-one lese in the past 20 years (oooh - now I've
opened a bag of worms :-)
Regardless of what the commentary team say, Rainey didn't dominate like Doohan
- Gardner was beating him and so was Lawson and Schwantz. Rainey was able to
consistently build points against them and was a superb rider, no doubt. But
no-one has dominated like this since the days of Agostini and Co.
And poor old Criville is stuck behind this guy - geez, I'd be pissed off too.
But his day will come if he doesn't throw his chances away next year. Learn
from Doohan and then cream the rest of them.
> I feel sorry for both
>riders since it was one of the few times where the riders forget about
>the millions they get paid and just go for it..
Forgetting the millions isn't good enough. Do that and you go back to being
paid sod all. We're not talking Club Days here.
> too bad the move didn't
>work and luckily no-one was injured.
>Let's see more of this racing next year!
Couldn't agree more. But look at the best race of the day - the 125's. No
touches and on the edge for 45 minutes.
It's going to be a ripper year in '97
>Regards, Ritch.
>
>PS. On the topic of riding over solid objects like blocks of wood, this
>morning there was this rock(!) on the Tullamarine Fwy. I am still here
>to write about it, thankfully missing the thing.. that countersteering
>thingie comes in useful sometimes... ;-)
Well done!
Cheers
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Kevin Gleeson
Imagine It
3D animation and graphics
Hobart, Tasmania, Australia
http://www.tasmall.com.au/imagine_it/
The Librarian Rules! - OOOK!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Dan Moloney
In article <01bbbf01$c8156b20$262e18cb@jaguar>, "Mark Paemaa" <ma...@streamline.com.au> says:
>
>
> Discussing the Australian GP with a few friends, I came up
> with a sequel to the
> "Doohan It" bumper stickers
>
> "Kill Criville"
>
> He was just too cutthroat to be a responsible racer.
>Well Done Mick - a great year.
>
I'm afraid i'll have to disagree. The get-off was just a racing accident.
He tried an overtaking manauvre (forgive the spelling:) and by the time it
was clear that he could not pull it off he was too far committed to save
the situation. If you've never been in the same sort of situation then you
have never raced, no matter how good your intentions whenever you are
putting in 110% you always end up in a few situations where you get in
over your head.
Cheers
Dan
*********************************************
"A graduate student eh! How come you guys can
fly to the moon but you can't make my shoes
smell good?"
-Homer Simpson
*********************************************
Mr R Longmire
Peter Howard wrote:
[munch] >
>
> A bit more info. Apparently (according to today's paper) Creville
> saw red after turn two where they touched the first time. He considered that
> coming together to be Doohan's fault.
>
> This was obviously in his mind at the last turn. I'd suggest his judgement
> was out at that point.
>
> --
> ------------------------------------
> Peter Howard | Open Technology
> pet...@ot.com.au | 61-2-99649633
> ------------------------------------
> Hopefully speaking for myself
> definitely not speaking for OT
> ------------------------------------
> --
I looked at the replay and thought about another desparate move to stuff
the front rider up the inside... Kevin Schwantz jamming up the inside of
Wayne Rainey a few years ago. It was a similar move, the rider behind
carrying way too much speed to get around the corner smoothly, but
hoping to at least get in front of the other guy and then slow down (in
the way of the "passee") The difference is that Schwantz got far enough
to be almost alongside Rainey and Criville didn't. I feel sorry for both
riders since it was one of the few times where the riders forget about
the millions they get paid and just go for it.. too bad the move didn't
work and luckily no-one was injured.
Let's see more of this racing next year!
Regards, Ritch.
PS. On the topic of riding over solid objects like blocks of wood, this
morning there was this rock(!) on the Tullamarine Fwy. I am still here
to write about it, thankfully missing the thing.. that countersteering
thingie comes in useful sometimes... ;-)
--
==================================================================
Ritchard Longmire '85 Gpz250 - slow; '96 ZX6-R - EEEK!
Dept of Econometrics, Faculty of Business and Economics
Monash University, Clayton
ph (03) 9905 5836
email Richard....@buseco.monash.edu.au
==================================================================
Kevin Gleeson
In article <54etkg$g...@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>, mol...@chem.chemistry.uq.edu.au (Dan Moloney) wrote:
>In article <01bbbf01$c8156b20$262e18cb@jaguar>, "Mark Paemaa"
> <ma...@streamline.com.au> says:
>>
>>
>> Discussing the Australian GP with a few friends, I came up
>> with a sequel to the
>> "Doohan It" bumper stickers
>>
>> "Kill Criville"
>>
>> He was just too cutthroat to be a responsible racer.
>>Well Done Mick - a great year.
>>
>
>I'm afraid i'll have to disagree. The get-off was just a racing accident.
>He tried an overtaking manauvre (forgive the spelling:) and by the time it
>was clear that he could not pull it off he was too far committed to save
>the situation. If you've never been in the same sort of situation then you
>have never raced, no matter how good your intentions whenever you are
>putting in 110% you always end up in a few situations where you get in
>over your head.
>
>Cheers
>Dan
I'm picking a median line. It certainly wasn't a deliberate "take-out", he's
not that stupid, but it was still a silly move. He had over-committed but was
still trying to hold that line. If he'd lifted the bike up briefly he would
have run a little wide and had to turn in again - no harm, but no win. He
seemed to make no huge effort to avoid the back wheel of Mick's bike when he
realised he'd stuffed it - again I say; not deliberate, but sloppy all the
same.
They are in the same team too. A racing incident when a Yamaha is in front is
different to a racing incident where you've tried all race to get past Mick
and haven't achieved it - a little less impatience and his sponsors and
employers would be a lot happier with him. If he'd taken out Capirossi in the
same way it would be more of a racing incident. The guy should be world champ
one day the way he is riding. If he pisses off the Honda team, he may lose
that chance.
My $.02
Peter Howard
In article <54f22n$5...@news.mel.aone.net.au>,
Kevin Gleeson <ima...@h130.aone.net.au> wrote:
>I'm picking a median line. It certainly wasn't a deliberate "take-out", he's
>not that stupid, but it was still a silly move. He had over-committed but was
>still trying to hold that line. If he'd lifted the bike up briefly he would
>have run a little wide and had to turn in again - no harm, but no win. He
>seemed to make no huge effort to avoid the back wheel of Mick's bike when he
>realised he'd stuffed it - again I say; not deliberate, but sloppy all the
>same.
>
A bit more info. Apparently (according to today's paper) Creville
Gordon Milne
Kevin Gleeson wrote:
<snip>
> I'm picking a median line. It certainly wasn't a deliberate "take-out", he's
> not that stupid, but it was still a silly move. He had over-committed but was
> still trying to hold that line. If he'd lifted the bike up briefly he would
> have run a little wide and had to turn in again - no harm, but no win. He
> seemed to make no huge effort to avoid the back wheel of Mick's bike when he
> realised he'd stuffed it - again I say; not deliberate, but sloppy all the
> same.
When viewed from Criville's on-bike camera, it shows Mick coming across the screen, from left to
right; Mick turned in accross Criville's bows, because he didn't know Criville was there. Criville
didn't have the pace to get a clear overtaking maneouvre - I think he was trying to get alongside
Doohan on the change of direction, and put him on the outside of the turn (make him go round the
long way round) but didn't quite make it - and then of course he was in too deep, with nowhere to
go as Doohan turned in.
The trackside camera angle looking "up" the hill is quite deceptive - it *does* look at first glance
as though Criville has simply ridden into the back of Doohan's bike - but look closer, and you see
Doohan's bike is comming from the outside of the track towards the apex, virtually cutting in front
of Criville. He's allowed to do this, as the GCR's state that the competitor in front "claims the
racing line", and others behind must make their way through as best they can.
I'm not excusing Criville; in hindsight he should realize that there wasn't much chance of getting
abreast of Doohan in the change of direction. But he didn't get to think about it for the time we
have; he had a split second to make the decision, and being a racer, he went for it. Hopefully he
will have learnt from the experience - and be a safer rider in future because of it.
And remember, he's not the first top-level rider to be involved in an accident at the front of the
pack; remember Lawson & Schwantz at Assen?
My $0.02 anyway...
Gordon
Gareth Bull
ima...@h130.aone.net.au (Kevin Gleeson) wrote:
> Mr R Longmire <Richard....@buseco.monash.edu.au> wrote:
>>I looked at the replay and thought about another desparate move to stuff
>>the front rider up the inside... Kevin Schwantz jamming up the inside of
>>Wayne Rainey a few years ago. It was a similar move, the rider behind
>>carrying way too much speed to get around the corner smoothly, but
>>hoping to at least get in front of the other guy and then slow down (in
>>the way of the "passee") The difference is that Schwantz got far enough
>>to be almost alongside Rainey and Criville didn't.
>Again my point is that the two riders are on the same team.
Actually, if I'm not mistaken, they're not actually on the same
"team". Yes, they both have the same sponsor, they both ride in the
same colours, they both get the official Honda factory bikes, but
Mick's contract is with HRC and Alex's contract is with Repsol.
Repsol is a Spanish company and the deal is they will be the primary
sponsor of the HRC team, provided one of the riders is Spanish, (and
of sufficient calibre to deserve a factory bike) whom they hold the
contract for.
It's like Wayne Gardner's first full time year in the world
championchip, riding with Freddie Spenser. Freddie's contract was with
Honda, Wayne's contract was not with Honda, it was with Rothmans, who
had an agreement with HRC to supply the Rothmans rider with the same
equipment Freddie was being supplied with. Each rider had his own
seperate manager and pit crew.
>They DO have more to think about more than just winning the race.
There are no team orders because they aren't answerable to the same
team manager. If HRC stepped in and ordered Alex to stay out of Mick's
way, they'd risk pissing off their #1 sponsor, big time! Not that HRC
can't afford to finance the entire season by themselves anyway.
Gareth Bull
Garet...@CC.Monash.edu.au
I'm just a jaywalker on the Information-Cul de sac
Hayden Gill
Gordon Milne wrote:
> And remember, he's not the first top-level rider to be involved in an accident at the front of the
> pack; remember Lawson & Schwantz at Assen?
.. Or a certain M. Doohan wiping out both Kevin Schwantz and Doug
Chandler at Donington (?) a few years back ...
You can't ride that hard and close all year and not expect something
like that to happen, they should both be thankful they got out of it
with no injuries, and with no bearing on the championship.
Just another $.02
--
Hayden Gill
91 FZR1000
David Banbury
Peter Howard wrote:
>
> A bit more info. Apparently (according to today's paper) Creville
> saw red after turn two where they touched the first time. He considered that
> coming together to be Doohan's fault.
A bit _more_ info (or at least a rumor):
A friend who was in the pits on the day said the first incident on turn 2/3
of the last lap was done under a yellow flag! Can anyone confirm this?
> ------------------------------------
> Peter Howard | Open Technology
> pet...@ot.com.au | 61-2-99649633
> ------------------------------------
Cheers,
Dave. "Whatever you do will be insignificant but
it is very important that you do it." - Mahatma Gandhi
Mark Paemaa
Great Response Guys,
hopefully my wife will feel better about it now. She was ready to chew
out Criville's ass.
I agree that the incident was a combination of Racing tactics and Fierce
competition - Criville being the nasty player. Dod you really think that
if Mick was behind Criville this would have happened ? (even if Criville
had won the champonship). I don't think so.
Graham Byrnes
In article <54f22n$5...@news.mel.aone.net.au>, ima...@h130.aone.net.au
(Kevin Gleeson) wrote:
>
> I'm picking a median line. It certainly wasn't a deliberate "take-out", he's
> not that stupid, but it was still a silly move. He had over-committed but was
> still trying to hold that line. If he'd lifted the bike up briefly he would
> have run a little wide and had to turn in again - no harm, but no win. He
> seemed to make no huge effort to avoid the back wheel of Mick's bike when he
> realised he'd stuffed it - again I say; not deliberate, but sloppy all the
> same.
Well, he did make some effort, if you watch in slo-mo, but by the time he
started to stand the bike up he was already inside of MD's rear wheel.
Doohan has certainly stuffed Criville under similar circumstances, but
had the judgement to see that there was a gap. Criville seemed to think
Doohan was going to run wide and leave a gap, but in fact he came in early
to shut the door (perfectly legit, since he was still clearly in front).
He was never closing fast enough to get a wheel in front by the apex, imho.
Still, he did wait until MD had the championship wrapped up. Had he done
it a couple of months back, his employer would have been most unamused.
As it was, the Honda garage seemed to be having quite a chuckle about it!
Bit too much testosterone to the brain, I think.
So next year we will have Beattie, Gobert, Corser as well as Doohan on the
needle with Criville. Could be interesting... roll on October 97 :-)
Graham
Mark Paemaa
Sydney, The Telegraph, Today. Apparently there is a 4 page article on the
incident. Could someone transcribe it to here ?
--
--==<Markus>==--
http://steamline.com.au/bike.html
Try everything Twice !!!
julian
>Peter Howard wrote:
>>
>> A bit more info. Apparently (according to today's paper) Creville
>> saw red after turn two where they touched the first time. He considered that
>> coming together to be Doohan's fault.
>
>A bit _more_ info (or at least a rumor):
>
>A friend who was in the pits on the day said the first incident on turn 2/3
>of the last lap was done under a yellow flag! Can anyone confirm this?
Was i seeing things or did Doohan Kick Criville out of the way just
before they decided to go skin grafting for the tar. ???
Even though i'm doohan all the way, i still think it was just one of
those things that happen when racing
What was that famous comment "Fu$%^ng S#$% happens"
Regards
Julian
John Lamp
"Mark Paemaa" <ma...@streamline.com.au> writes:
> Discussing the Australian GP with a few friends, I came up
> with a sequel to the
> "Doohan It" bumper stickers
>
> "Kill Criville"
This is hardly a measured response. Go back to watching Saturday Disney.
Cheers
John
_--_|\ John Lamp, originating in Hobart, Tasmania
/ \ email: jw_...@calvados.apana.org.au
\_.--._/ APANA? email in...@apana.org.au
v <----<< calvados? email in...@calvados.apana.org.au
Ulysses #10185 DoD #1906
Mark Paemaa
>This is hardly a measured response. Go back to watching Saturday Disney.
John,
I was a spectator at the track at the Australian GP 20th October 96. The
crowd expressed alot of emotion over the incident between Doohan and
Criville. My 'Kill Criville' quote was an attempt to raise humour, as well
as to generate response like this message has done so.
In all honesty, my wife had a real problem with it. After discussing with
her (before posting the message), all of the angles - eg, racing lines,
committing, accidents, Spanish GP etc etc, she still took the physcological
view that it was a premeditated response.
The reponse given was fantastic - in the news group and in the media (even
if the media do tend to dramatise it).
You assume that people that watch Saturday Disney cannot give 'Measured
Reponses'. I hope you are not a father. I didn't think Ulysses members
were so judgemental - but then again, it comes with age.
--==<Markus>==--
Graham Byrnes
In article <54h4ql$a...@harbinger.cc.monash.edu.au>,
Garet...@cc.monash.edu.au (Gareth Bull) wrote:
>
> Actually, if I'm not mistaken, they're not actually on the same
> "team".
Hmm. So what happened in Spain, when Honda declined to support Criville's
protest about the track invasion, which would have given him the win
had it been upheld? If the Repsol/Criville organisation was independent,
surely they would have gone ahead without Honda approval?
Graham