NSW Licencing - doing preprovisional skills test on automatic scooter
alx
NSW rider :-
1) completes Prelearner on MANUAL motorcycle
>> issued with learner licence for manual bike
2) Rider then completes the 6 hour "preprovisional training" on MANUAL
motorcycle .
3) Rider then passes the MOST test (the skills test...cone weave/u
turns etc) on an AUTOMATIC scooter.
4) Rider then issued with provisional licence for MANUAL motorcycle
(despite doing the MOST test on an auto scooter).
NSW Riders Handbook appears to confirm this Step4:-
"
Automatic transmission:
You are restricted to riding automatic
motorcycle motorcycles if you completed your
pre-provisional training course on one.
"
The preprovisional course and the Motorcycle Operator Skills Test (the
MOST) are separate activities that comprise the requirements to
proceed to a P1 licence. The automatic restriction is only based on
what type was used for the 6 hour ride.
I heard of this "relaxed" option from a licenced riding instructor.
Is this a valid interpretation of the NSW Graduated Licencing Scheme ?
theo
The question should be, "do you want to pass your licence, or learn to
ride".
Theo
alx
I take your point but that still really isn't the question, nor the
point you are getting as being the answer.
I could have also stated "ditch the lumbering 660cc LAMS-approved
unwieldy heavy automatic scooter and use a 125cc (manual)
bike" ...your repackaged question, whilst of philosphical curiosity,
still bares minimal validity to the objective...pass the test.
There be a fair few readers of a certain age and wrinkliness that
managed to learn to ride without passing a MOST-style test..prob coz
they learnt to ride (or were born) before 6.1 metres was even a
distance using an officially recognised unit of measurement
FWIW the practise of using the riding school/RTA contractor's learner
bikes to do the MOST instead of using ones own bike is a not uncommon
strategy.
theo
> There be a fair few readers of a certain age and wrinkliness that
> managed to learn to ride without passing a MOST-style test..prob coz
> they learnt to ride (or were born) before 6.1 metres was even a
> distance using an officially recognised unit of measurement
I got my unlimited licence on a Vespa 175 whilst not wearing a
helmet. :-)
But there were no classifications then. They were all motorcycles and
even scooters were manual.
Theo
alx
Yes, we of the "cup of tea" testing regime.."righto sonny, round the
block and back here by the time I come back out with me tea and
cake.."
F Murtz
ground come back here. (don't know how to spell uee)
Moike
> On Apr 15, 8:15 am, alx <alxr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> There be a fair few readers of a certain age and wrinkliness that
>> managed to learn to ride without passing a MOST-style test..prob coz
>> they learnt to ride (or were born) before 6.1 metres was even a
>> distance using an officially recognised unit of measurement
>
> I got my unlimited licence on a Vespa 175 whilst not wearing a
> helmet. :-)
Mine was a 50cc Vespa, but being (in this company) a younger bloke, I
had to wear a helmet. The cork-lined fibreglass pudding basin was quite
sufficient at the time.
>
> But there were no classifications then. They were all motorcycles and
> even scooters were manual.
Is is a manual if it's fitted with a foot operated gear change?
Moike
alx
Am not aware of the definition used but I'd suggest it's to do with
the operator deciding when to change (forward) gears rather than an
automated device deciding to change based on engine load and revs. The
gear changing is merely the implementation (along with a clutch).
x.x
On 15/4/09 8:37 AM, in article
8859e8d6-cd51-45b9...@v23g2000pro.googlegroups.com, "theo"
<th...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
u r spot on!
alx
>
>
>
> <t...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
> > On Apr 14, 8:32 pm, alx <alxr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> Scenario:
>
> >> Is this a valid interpretation of the NSW Graduated Licencing Scheme ?
>
> > The question should be, "do you want to pass your licence, or learn to
> > ride".
>
> > Theo
>
> u r spot on!
If you don't pass the test then consider any further learning to be at
a standstill.
TimC
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:
> On Apr 15, 11:45 am, theo <t...@bekkers.com.au> wrote:
>> On Apr 15, 8:15 am, alx <alxr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> > There be a fair few readers of a certain age and wrinkliness that
>> > managed to learn to ride without passing a MOST-style test..prob coz
>> > they learnt to ride (or were born) before 6.1 metres was even a
>> > distance using an officially recognised unit of measurement
>>
>> I got my unlimited licence on a Vespa 175 whilst not wearing a
>> helmet. :-)
>>
>> But there were no classifications then. They were all motorcycles and
>> even scooters were manual.
>
> block and back here by the time I come back out with me tea and
> cake.."
That was the test I did yesterday. One of the few benefits of living
out in outer whoop whoop - no requirement to do a pre-provisional test.
If it were the day before, I'm pretty sure the tester wouldn't have
even gotten out from underneath the RTA verandah.
--
TimC
CAUTION: The Mass of This Product Contains the Energy Equivalent of 85
Million Tons of TNT per Net Ounce of Weight. -- unk
Tony F
> > On Apr 15, 8:15 am, alx <alxr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> There be a fair few readers of a certain age and wrinkliness that
> >> managed to learn to ride without passing a MOST-style test..prob coz
> >> they learnt to ride (or were born) before 6.1 metres was even a
> >> distance using an officially recognised unit of measurement
>
> > I got my unlimited licence on a Vespa 175 whilst not wearing a
> > helmet. :-)
>
> Mine was a 50cc Vespa, but being (in this company) a younger bloke, I
> had to wear a helmet. The cork-lined fibreglass pudding basin was quite
> sufficient at the time.
Round the block - but I could see the tester run out the back so he
could actually see me when I reached the main road. One stop then U-
turn, one moving U-turn. "Did you do anything wrong?" "Ummm..."
<thinks about forgotten hand signal at main road> "no". "just be sure
to stick your arm right out and hand vertical." I had pointed rather
than had the vertical hand. Vertical hand is probably the wrong term,
but we both knew what he meant. Passed. A mate's Honda Dax - 70cc of
pure minibike. Centrifugal clutch, foot shift - three gears(?) so semi
auto. Ran out of fuel on the way home, so filled it up - cost me
$0.33... aah, yes, those were the days - now get offa my lawn!
Tony F
alx
>
> Round the block - but I could see the tester run out the back
omg you got one that could run??? Mine waddled off for his tea and
cake and a rather unremarkable gait.
alx
So I'm still waiting for a definitive answer... can a "manual" licence
be issued to a learner that has completed all other aspects the
courses on a manual bike BUT DOES THE MOST (aka Skills Test) on an
automatic scooter ?
jl
Austlii over there ->
x.x
On 20/4/09 9:37 PM, in article 01fc525d$0$20654$c3e...@news.astraweb.com,
"jl" <not-...@nowhere.com> wrote:
China is v
alx
so where is the ex-Learner that did their MOST on an auto scooter and
rode away on a manual bike?
Nev..
So you already heard this information from someone in a position of
relative authority who would know whether it was possible or not right?
Why do you keep insisting on some sort of definitive answer from here?
Netrider forums is the place you should be asking. That's where all
the L and P platers hang out.
Nev..
'07 XB12X
'08 DL1000K8
Tony F
JL
I dunno, you're telling the story.
Seems to me you're asking rhetorical questions you already know the
answers to ?
JL
JL
<snort> Now THAT is funnier than Gerry's joke.
JL
CrazyCam
<snip>
> so where is the ex-Learner that did their MOST on an auto scooter and
> rode away on a manual bike?
I dunno.
I have to ask, tho, if someone has completed the road ride bit on a
"normal" motorcycle, where is the gain in using an auto scooter for the
MOST?
I have done the MOST on a variety of motorcycles, a couple of auto
scooters, and a postie semi-auto, and, IMHO, there is a sort of swings
and roundabouts situation where one machine may have an advantage in one
part of the MOST, but it is made up for by a disadvantage in other part(s).
regards,
CrazyCam
x.x
On 21/4/09 11:30 PM, in article
49edca84$0$12607$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au, "Nev.."
<id...@mindless.com> wrote:
this man is tooo funny! Suffer in ur jocks
Nigel Allen
No JL - he is right - they _should_ know!
N/
JL
au"> wrote:
> JL wrote:
> > On Apr 22, 8:36 am, Tony F <thefathi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> On Apr 20, 3:15 pm, alx <alxr...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip> e preprovisional course and the Motorcycle Operator Skills Test
(the
> >>>> MOST) are separate activities that comprise the requirements to
> >>>> proceed to a P1 licence. The automatic restriction is only based on
> >>>> what type was used for the 6 hour ride.
> >>>> I heard of this "relaxed" option from a licenced riding instructor.
> >>>> Is this a valid interpretation of the NSW Graduated Licencing Scheme ?
> >>> So I'm still waiting for a definitive answer... can a "manual" licence
> >>> be issued to a learner that has completed all other aspects the
> >>> courses on a manual bike BUT DOES THE MOST (aka Skills Test) on an
> >>> automatic scooter ?
> >> Oh, you wanted *definitive*?
>
> >> Try
>
> >>http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au
>
> >> They should know.
>
> > <snort> Now THAT is funnier than Gerry's joke.
>
> No JL - he is right - they _should_ know!
>
<chuckle> Yeah OK, fair cop, *should* is different to does.
JL
alx
1. I wouldn't call one instructor, via hearsay, being a definitive
answer... nor an instructor being in a "position of relative
authority". Having that instructor's comments confirmed by separate
means (eg this forum) would be of interest. RInging the RTA and
seeking a "definitive answer" would be useful but I would also like to
foster debate and discussion on the matter here. Sorry that you are
perplexed/offended at clearly being forced to read this thread, I will
do better next time Nev.
2. I'm merely endeavouring to bring the original thread posting (MY
original question) back to the point. All (OK..most) of the replies
are interesting but absolutely no one had any comment on this anomaly
in the testing procedure.
3. I choose to post where I want and indeed there are riders in here
with the experience and worldliness that deserved to be exposed to the
intrigue.
4. Given the apparent lack of knowledge on this aspect of the testing,
including by some that have an active interest (as experienced riders)
in assisting pre and learner riders through the phases, would suggest
that this is an ideal forum.
alx
> alx wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > so where is the ex-Learner that did their MOST on an auto scooter and
> > rode away on a manual bike?
>
> I dunno.
>
> I have to ask, tho, if someone has completed the road ride bit on a
> "normal" motorcycle, where is the gain in using an auto scooter for the
> MOST?
Indeed, there may be no gain at all riding an auto scooter...
I have not claimed as such, it may merely have been just a more
convenient, shortwheel-based, quick steering, high handlebarred bike
that is suitable for low speed antics and doesn't overheat and get
grumpy on a warm day muckin about in carparks.
I raise auto scooter as the licensing classification differentiates
between auto and manual licences.
But the pass certificate only covers the type of bike ridden on part
of the test phases.
Now if RTA had specified licence categories for either red bikes or
pink bikes (with tassles), then I would be asking the same...doing the
prelearner and ride phases on a red bike then switching to the pink
bike (with tassles) for the MOST phase.
Cam, can I borrow ya pink bike mate? :-)
>
> I have done the MOST on a variety of motorcycles, a couple of auto
> scooters, and a postie semi-auto, and, IMHO, there is a sort of swings
> and roundabouts situation where one machine may have an advantage in one
> part of the MOST, but it is made up for by a disadvantage in other part(s).
>
oh agreed! FWIW a >300kg 650cc, longwheelbase cruiser completes all
aspects of the MOST with far greater finesse than a <200kg, litreclass
sportsbike...apart from the Quick Stoppie oops Stop.
> regards,
> CrazyCam
CrazyCam
> On Apr 22, 9:20 am, CrazyCam <Crazy...@optusnet.com.au> wrote:
>> alx wrote:
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> so where is the ex-Learner that did their MOST on an auto scooter and
>>> rode away on a manual bike?
>> I dunno.
Oh, OK, sorry, I thought you seemed to have some kind of disapproval in
your original question.
>> I have to ask, tho, if someone has completed the road ride bit on a
>> "normal" motorcycle, where is the gain in using an auto scooter for the
>> MOST?
>
> Indeed, there may be no gain at all riding an auto scooter...
Under the circumstances outlined in the original thing, I (mistakenly)
took it that you thought there was....again, sorry.
> I have not claimed as such, it may merely have been just a more
> convenient, shortwheel-based, quick steering, high handlebarred bike
> that is suitable for low speed antics and doesn't overheat and get
> grumpy on a warm day muckin about in carparks.
>
> I raise auto scooter as the licensing classification differentiates
> between auto and manual licences.
Yup.
The auto-manual business seems to have been done without too much, or
even enough, thought and planning.
At one stage, and it may still be in place, there were conditions
applied to the auto licence relating to engine capacity, that were not,
AFAIK, ever "properly" established within the framework of the existing
rules and regulations....... if you prefer that in plain english, they
made it as as they were going along! :-|
I have not done the course to administer the MOST.
AFAIK, the normal expectation is that people will do the road ride and
the MOST on their own bikes.
Again, AFAIK, the person administering the test can allow someone to
change bikes between the road ride and the MOST.
So, again AFAIK, the tester would be acting within their powers to allow
the situation of a person doing the road ride on a regular bike, and
then the MOST on an automatic scooter.
However, I cannot imagine what circumstances might justify them allowing
it, nor can I see it, in any significant way, as a cheat or easy way
round the test, which is what I was getting at in my earlier post.
> But the pass certificate only covers the type of bike ridden on part
> of the test phases.
>
> Now if RTA had specified licence categories for either red bikes or
> pink bikes (with tassles), then I would be asking the same...doing the
> prelearner and ride phases on a red bike then switching to the pink
> bike (with tassles) for the MOST phase.
>
> Cam, can I borrow ya pink bike mate? :-)
Sorry, mate, but I don't own a pink bike any more, and, when I did, it
didn't have tassels!
>> I have done the MOST on a variety of motorcycles, a couple of auto
>> scooters, and a postie semi-auto, and, IMHO, there is a sort of swings
>> and roundabouts situation where one machine may have an advantage in one
>> part of the MOST, but it is made up for by a disadvantage in other part(s).
>>
>
> oh agreed! FWIW a >300kg 650cc, longwheelbase cruiser completes all
> aspects of the MOST with far greater finesse than a <200kg, litreclass
> sportsbike...apart from the Quick Stoppie oops Stop.
Pardon?
To try to illustrate what I am getting at, my Z50 Honda is, in some
respects the cheatingest and easiest bike to do the MOST on.
U-turn in the box, not a problem, it can do figure of eights in the box.
Quick swerves...easy!
Stoppies....easy!
Only problem is that you actually have to know how to ride a motorcycle
before you can get it to do all that, and, if you don't know how to
ride, it _will_ bite you.
I have, in the past, offered it on loan to several 80 y.o. Ulysses Club
members when they were facing doing the standard MOST, but I certainly
wouldn't let a learner loose on it.
regards,
CrazyCam
bikerbetty
news:49f16266$0$4046$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
My experience is of the ACT system, but the Stay Upright centre that does
Canberra is located just outside Queanbehole, and also does NSW stuff. I
think they sometimes combine the two on a couple of the courses.
One of the (few) times I attempted my MOST, there was somebody there who did
the test on a postie bike. Now, the thing is, I don't know whether they were
a NSW or ACT candidate, but from memory, they weren't allowed to ride a
'motorcycle' while on their Ps. Dunno what would happen when they graduated
to a full licence... (caveat: this was 3 years ago and my memory ain't what
it used to be, heh heh)
Gee, I was hoping to say something useful - hope I haven't muddied the
waters even more!
betty
alx
>
> AFAIK, the normal expectation is that people will do the road ride and
> the MOST on their own bikes.
>
The Schools have a nice lil earner in hiring out bikes for just the
MOST.
> Again, AFAIK, the person administering the test can allow someone to
> change bikes between the road ride and the MOST.
People do pass the road session, fail the MOST and come back another
day, booked in for just the MOST. I have seen learners also turn up
on there own bike and hire a school bike for the MOST...switching
bikes is not an issue indeed...it is a strategy.
>
> So, again AFAIK, the tester would be acting within their powers to allow
> the situation of a person doing the road ride on a regular bike, and
> then the MOST on an automatic scooter.
>
Or the opposite...but why would you...the licence certification
appears to be based on what type of bike (auto or manual) you use for
the prelearners and the road test session..the type of bike for the
MOST is irrelevant.
>
> To try to illustrate what I am getting at, my Z50 Honda is, in some
> respects the cheatingest and easiest bike to do the MOST on.
>
> U-turn in the box, not a problem, it can do figure of eights in the box.
>
> Quick swerves...easy!
>
> Stoppies....easy!
>
> Only problem is that you actually have to know how to ride a motorcycle
> before you can get it to do all that, and, if you don't know how to
> ride, it _will_ bite you.
>
> I have, in the past, offered it on loan to several 80 y.o. Ulysses Club
> members when they were facing doing the standard MOST, but I certainly
> wouldn't let a learner loose on it.
Thus my point...some bikes are easier to do the MOST on than
others...the characteristics of a typical scooter (which
are ..typically...automatic) small wheels, light, easy to handle,
great for low speed operations etc etc. will make aspects of the MOST
easier to do.
Yes, can find exceptions of course.
At least two different contractors hire bikes and learners do ditch
their own bikes and hire the school bike JUST FOR THE MOST.
It is no more "cheating" than, say, adopting a strategy of blitzing
all the tests and blowing points on the U turn by deliberately
crossing just one of the lines..instead of failing the entire MOST by
wobbling over all the lines.
The objective is to pass..there is no judgment passed on whether it is
ir should have been done on your own daily bike..or the bike you
intend to buy next week...or whether you passed without hitting a
line.