AMP Kits
conr...@yahoo.com
Altronics, Jaycar, Silicon Chip etc. I am interested in some reviews
and suggestions of which kits to consider. Preferance is for at least
100W/channel (interested in AMP only kits as well i.e. doesn't include
power supply or be in a stereo configuration).
Thanks in advance
Conrad
Trevor Wilson
<conr...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1116597852.8...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
**You can't beat the Silicon Chip Ultra Low Distortion amplifier. It is
superb and the best kit amp I have ever heard/built. It utterly creams the
vastly over-hyped and over-priced AKSA kit (in price, performance, technical
details, kit completeness and sound quality). Even better, the ULDA
schematic can be examined without purchasing an entire kit. I don't know if
it is available without a power supply, but you can buy the article from
Silicon Chip, the PCBs from RCS Radio and the other parts from various
suppliers. I know of almost no kit amplifiers, which have independent
reviews. Few can afford to pay the money to the reviewers. Reviews cost
money and that would be reflected in the price of the kit. Or do you imagine
that reviews are free?
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Greg Erskine
Just to prove there is always two sides to every story, while respecting
Trevor's experience and qualifications I have the exact opposite experience.
I haven't built the Silicon Chip Ultra Low Distortion but have built many
other amps including Silicon Chip designed amps, some Rod Elliott's, a few
Gainclones, scratch built amps, one based on RCS Radio pcbs and an AKSA or
two. The AKSA has always proven to be MY preferred amp. Be careful of
other's opinions, including my own, as I have found audio usually comes down
to personal preferences, so you will always find conflicting opinions. Your
selection of other components, especially speakers, will emphasise the
differences between amps.
To my surprise, ALL the amps I have built have proven to be very good, and I
imagine the Silicon Chip Ultra Low Distortion amp would be no exception. I
have found the DIY experience most enjoyable and rewarding. So just do it.
To get more DIY information, you may want to try this forum:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?forumid=4
The AKSA forum can be found here:
http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewforum.php?f=19
Greg
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:428e...@news.comindico.com.au...
Trevor Wilson
"Greg Erskine" <gersk...@ITtpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:428e...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> Hi Conrad,
>
> Just to prove there is always two sides to every story, while respecting
> Trevor's experience and qualifications I have the exact opposite
> experience. I haven't built the Silicon Chip Ultra Low Distortion but have
> built many other amps including Silicon Chip designed amps, some Rod
> Elliott's, a few Gainclones, scratch built amps, one based on RCS Radio
> pcbs and an AKSA or two. The AKSA has always proven to be MY preferred
> amp. Be careful of other's opinions, including my own, as I have found
> audio usually comes down to personal preferences, so you will always find
> conflicting opinions. Your selection of other components, especially
> speakers, will emphasise the differences between amps.
**I agree. HOWEVER, the ULDA is a fundamentally different amp for Silicon
Chip (or almost any other kit amp). It really is THAT good. I have compared
to a couple of AKSA kits and the result was a no-brainer. Both in cost,
objective performance and subjective performance.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Rod Crawford
Following a similar discussion a few weeks ago, I dug out some kit amps I
built over the years to compare them with the Mark Levinson 29 (production
1990-5) amp currently in my system. In all cases I had used in the kit's
construction superior components (esp. capacitors) where possible and beefed
up the power supplies. Briefly the results were (and when they were built):
EA Playmaster Pro series 3 (~1992) - sounded appalling!
E&WW Doug Self Trimodal class A, A/B & B switchable (~1996) - reasonable but
significantly worse than the Levinson
SC ULD pure class A 15 W (~2000) - about the same as the Levinson in the
midrange, better in the treble but significantly worse in the bass (not
surprisingly given it power).
It would suggest that the new SC ULD amp with its greater power output might
outperform the Levinson in all areas (though the Levinson is getting a bit
long in the tooth and not the best commercial amplifier now around).
Rod
Dr Rod Crawford
for Legend Acoustics
www.legendspeakers.com.au
S Roby
Hi there.
Ive a few questions for the more experienced.......
Given the resources of most Commercial hifi amp makers, surely they
could/can/do design significantly better amps than (say) the Silicon Chip amps
& sell them at a price less than the cost of buliding a SC amp?????
Do the kit amps really as great as claimed by some.
If you were after best 'bang per buck' then would a used amp be a better bet
than the $$ needed for kit amps
Are kit builders too biased when assesing the quality the the amps they build
(some of the sound quality claims of chip amp builders are hard to beleive, ie
gainclone etc)
Ive built a few kit amps & had to battle with instability due to design issues
(guess which kit). Ive read comments in UK & Aus mags about the eariler
version of some designs having 'stability' issues, why was this never
mentioned when the amp is still current.
Phil Allison
"Rod Crawford"
>
> Following a similar discussion a few weeks ago, I dug out some kit amps I
> built over the years to compare them with the Mark Levinson 29 (production
> 1990-5) amp currently in my system.
** Sighted, non-level matched and WITHOUT instant changeover facilities -
I suppose ?
All that university science education was wasted on a fucking ratbag
like Crawford.
> In all cases I had used in the kit's
> construction superior components (esp. capacitors) where possible and
> beefed
> up the power supplies. Briefly the results were (and when they were
> built):
** Snip excremental bullshit from a known charlatan and all round nut case.
............ Phil
Mr.T
"S Roby" <em...@gooble.gooble> wrote in message
news:K2Wje.2031$U4.2...@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Given the resources of most Commercial hifi amp makers, surely they
> could/can/do design significantly better amps than (say) the Silicon Chip
amps
> & sell them at a price less than the cost of buliding a SC amp?????
Very true. Whilst the SC ULD is a good design, it's not exactly good value
if you buy a kit from Jaycar or Dick Smith and still have to build it.
I no longer build amps because I cannot buy the parts for the price of a
ready made amp with warranty. It is usually cheaper and easier to modify one
if necessary.
> Do the kit amps really as great as claimed by some.
> If you were after best 'bang per buck' then would a used amp be a better
bet
> than the $$ needed for kit amps
Yep, S/H amps are usually the best value. There is not much to go wrong with
a power amp that is not obvious. After a couple of decades you may need a
few new capacitors or new pots. Easier than building a kit!
> Are kit builders too biased when assesing the quality the the amps they
build
> (some of the sound quality claims of chip amp builders are hard to
beleive, ie
> gainclone etc)
Yep. The gainclones aren't bad though if your speakers are easy to drive.
That's only because they are so cheap and simple to build.
The *real joke* was the original, commercial Gaincard at the price they were
asking !!!!!!!!!!!! This is what people are comparing with.
> Ive built a few kit amps & had to battle with instability due to design
issues
> (guess which kit). Ive read comments in UK & Aus mags about the eariler
> version of some designs having 'stability' issues, why was this never
> mentioned when the amp is still current.
Funny about that :-)
(Same as the car mags that tell you what was wrong with the last model when
the new one comes out.)
However even the commercial designs get it wrong sometimes. There's no real
warranty with a kit though when things go horribly wrong.
MrT.
Greg Erskine
> built over the years to compare them with the Mark Levinson 29 (production
> 1990-5) amp currently in my system. In all cases I had used in the kit's
> construction superior components (esp. capacitors) where possible and
> beefed
> up the power supplies. Briefly the results were (and when they were
> built):
>
> EA Playmaster Pro series 3 (~1992) - sounded appalling!
>
> E&WW Doug Self Trimodal class A, A/B & B switchable (~1996) - reasonable
> but
> significantly worse than the Levinson
>
> SC ULD pure class A 15 W (~2000) - about the same as the Levinson in the
> midrange, better in the treble but significantly worse in the bass (not
> surprisingly given it power).
>
> It would suggest that the new SC ULD amp with its greater power output
> might
> outperform the Levinson in all areas (though the Levinson is getting a bit
> long in the tooth and not the best commercial amplifier now around).
>
> Rod
> Dr Rod Crawford
> for Legend Acoustics
> www.legendspeakers.com.au
>
Hi Rod,
I'm not sure the ULDA Trevor is referring to is a class A amp. I was under
the impression it is K5155 (complete kit) or K5150 (amp module) available
from Altronics, a 100watt class AB amp as he is comparing it to an AKSA
(which are class AB).
Your comparisons to the Mark Levinson 29 seems similar to other comparisons
I have read. I have not heard any of the amps you mention, but EA Playmaster
Pro series 3 seems to have a bad reputation, and the Trimodal is recognised
as a good design that sounds ordinary.
Thanks
Greg
Greg Erskine
news:K2Wje.2031$U4.2...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>
You would hope that Commercial hifi amp makers could design amps better than
Silicon Chip amps, but I think this only true for SOME Commercial hifi amp
makers. I also believe SOME kit amps are better than most Commercial amps.
There will always be exceptions as there are crappy commercial and kit amps.
YMMV.
As far as bang for buck, a good second amp is probably the way to go BUT if
you like building amps this is not a solution and you could possibly end up
with a better amp.
Everyone is baised towards their new baby, be it a kit amp or a commercial
amp, this is only natural.
I've built lots of Gainclones and have never been 100% happy. They do offer
good value and IMHO out perform my old Yamaha for example. That being said,
I have heard one Gainclone that was truely hi-fi and very impressive with
some material.(not one of mine unfortunately)
I've never had problems with 'stability' in any of my kit amps but I think I
know the one you are referring to. This issue has arisen because the people
putting together the kits are not the designers or interested in hi-fi, they
are just selling kits. I believe this problem could have been occurred
because the original design used slow output devices and over the course of
20 years the increase in speed of the components resulted in the
instability. To ensure this doesn't happen you need to build kits that are
designed, produced and supported by people interested in hi-fi.
Greg Erskine
"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:42904008$0$10304$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> "S Roby" <em...@gooble.gooble> wrote in message
> news:K2Wje.2031$U4.2...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>> Given the resources of most Commercial hifi amp makers, surely they
>> could/can/do design significantly better amps than (say) the Silicon Chip
> amps
>> & sell them at a price less than the cost of buliding a SC amp?????
>
> Very true. Whilst the SC ULD is a good design, it's not exactly good value
> if you buy a kit from Jaycar or Dick Smith and still have to build it.
> I no longer build amps because I cannot buy the parts for the price of a
> ready made amp with warranty. It is usually cheaper and easier to modify
> one
> if necessary.
If you main objective is to build amps because that is what you enjoy doing
then the cost is not necessarily an issue. With the advent of cheap Chinese
amps what you say will always be true. Take a look at the DSE A2760 for
example, a lot of parts for $146.
>> Do the kit amps really as great as claimed by some.
>> If you were after best 'bang per buck' then would a used amp be a better
> bet
>> than the $$ needed for kit amps
>
> Yep, S/H amps are usually the best value. There is not much to go wrong
> with
> a power amp that is not obvious. After a couple of decades you may need a
> few new capacitors or new pots. Easier than building a kit!
Possibly true but cheap Chinese amps, T-amps and other digital amps are
starting to redefine "value". These could possibly kill off most DIY amps as
well as many established brands. Tip: Don't buy shares in any hi-fi company.
>> Are kit builders too biased when assesing the quality the the amps they
> build
>> (some of the sound quality claims of chip amp builders are hard to
> beleive, ie
>> gainclone etc)
>
> Yep. The gainclones aren't bad though if your speakers are easy to drive.
> That's only because they are so cheap and simple to build.
> The *real joke* was the original, commercial Gaincard at the price they
> were
> asking !!!!!!!!!!!! This is what people are comparing with.
I covered this in another post.
>> Ive built a few kit amps & had to battle with instability due to design
> issues
>> (guess which kit). Ive read comments in UK & Aus mags about the eariler
>> version of some designs having 'stability' issues, why was this never
>> mentioned when the amp is still current.
>
> Funny about that :-)
> (Same as the car mags that tell you what was wrong with the last model
> when
> the new one comes out.)
> However even the commercial designs get it wrong sometimes. There's no
> real
> warranty with a kit though when things go horribly wrong.
>
> MrT.
>
I think I explained this instability in another post. But if you build your
own amp and know what you are doing then warranty is not an issue because
you can maintain it yourself. There's really not a lot to go wrong from my
perspective.
Rod Crawford
Hi Greg
Trevor was referring to a more recent SC ULDA that came out I think in
2002 - the one I was referring to came out in 1999 - so I cannot comment on
it. I keep being tempted to build the more recent amp, given Trevor's
comments, to replace the Levinson 29 which is now getting a bit dated but
given previous experiences I am hesitant.
Cheers
Rod
Trevor Wilson
"S Roby" <em...@gooble.gooble> wrote in message
news:K2Wje.2031$U4.2...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>
> Ive a few questions for the more experienced.......
> Given the resources of most Commercial hifi amp makers, surely they
> could/can/do design significantly better amps than (say) the Silicon Chip
> amps
> & sell them at a price less than the cost of buliding a SC amp?????
**Some do. At a price. What makes the SC ULD amp really good (SPECIFICALLY),
is that they have employed some nice design touches not used in any kit amp
I have ever seen nor in many commercial products.
> Do the kit amps really as great as claimed by some.
**Some do, some don't. Kit amps are a source of great pride by their owners,
because they have put much time and effort into their building. Kit owners
tend to engage in much hyperbole about their efforts. Some of the worst amps
ever released into the market place are kit amps. I know: I've built a few
of them. Here's a few really bad kit amps:
* The Alan Wright designed Timbre amplifier.
* Playmaster (Electronics Australia) 132.
* ETI 5000 (Tilbrook designed) amp and the equally appalling matching
preamp. Later Tilbrook designs were better, but hardly worth bothering with.
> If you were after best 'bang per buck' then would a used amp be a better
> bet
> than the $$ needed for kit amps
**Absolutely.
> Are kit builders too biased when assesing the quality the the amps they
> build
> (some of the sound quality claims of chip amp builders are hard to
> beleive, ie
> gainclone etc)
**Yep. The Gainclone is nothing more exotic than an IC based amp. You'll
find the same thing in a cheap, mini stereo system. They're used because
they are cheap and compact. The original Gaincard is a collossal con-job.
>
> Ive built a few kit amps & had to battle with instability due to design
> issues
> (guess which kit). Ive read comments in UK & Aus mags about the eariler
> version of some designs having 'stability' issues, why was this never
> mentioned when the amp is still current.
**Exactly. Kit amps are subject to many variables. Least of all the tendency
for kit builders to take short cuts. Follow the directions to the letter,
use a good design and you'll likely have no problems. The SC ULD amp is a
bloody good start, IMO. The best kit amp I have ever seen/built/heard, by a
considerable margin.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Rod Crawford
"Rod Crawford" <leg...@webone.com.au> wrote in message
news:4290f44b$0$24864$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
PS. I have just downloaded (cost $8.80 for part 1 only!) the 100W SC ULDA
that Trevor recommends and its power amp section seems pretty much the same
as the earlier (1999) 15W one I built except that it has higher supply
voltages, higher voltage input transistors (BC556s rather than BC557s) plus
different value output transistors (with 4 rather than 2) - and it runs
class A/B rather than pure class A - all much as expected. So it should
sound similar to the 15W version I described earlier in the thread but with
more grunt (bass)?
Mr.T
> If you main objective is to build amps because that is what you enjoy
doing
> then the cost is not necessarily an issue.
True, but not what was asked.
>With the advent of cheap Chinese
> amps what you say will always be true. Take a look at the DSE A2760 for
> example, a lot of parts for $146.
Exactly, a good amp for the money. You certainly cannot buy a kit, or
similar parts, at Dick Smiths for anything like the same money.
> > Yep, S/H amps are usually the best value. There is not much to go wrong
> > with
> > a power amp that is not obvious. After a couple of decades you may need
a
> > few new capacitors or new pots. Easier than building a kit!
>
> Possibly true but cheap Chinese amps, T-amps and other digital amps are
> starting to redefine "value".
Agreed, and one neeeds to keep this in mind if buying S/H of course.
There is unfortunately a shortage of proper tests on the cheap amps because
the advertising budget is not there.
> I think I explained this instability in another post. But if you build
your
> own amp and know what you are doing then warranty is not an issue because
> you can maintain it yourself. There's really not a lot to go wrong from my
> perspective.
Of course there is if the design is faulty in the first place.
But as I said, even the good designs are uneconomic these days. And not many
people wish to pay more and spend countless hours putting it together, just
to say they have done it themselves. There will always be a few I guess.
MrT.
Mr.T
"Rod Crawford" <leg...@webone.com.au> wrote in message
news:4290f44b$0$24864$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
> 2002 - the one I was referring to came out in 1999 - so I cannot comment
on
> it.
It is essentially the same amp with a proper case, rather than the computer
case.
MrT.
Phil Allison
"Greg Erskine"
>
> If you main objective is to build amps because that is what you enjoy
> doing then the cost is not necessarily an issue. With the advent of cheap
> Chinese amps what you say will always be true. Take a look at the DSE
> A2760 for example, a lot of parts for $146.
>
** The price is $199 at either DSE or Tandy stores.
http://www.dse.com.au/cgi-bin/dse.storefront/42913f880b8a2152273fc0a87f9c071d/Product/View/A2760
............ Phil
Mr.T
>Here's a few really bad kit amps:
Gee, that goes back a while. The first solid state amp I built. It was truly
crappy.
> * ETI 5000 (Tilbrook designed) amp and the equally appalling matching
> preamp.
Not as bad as you keep saying IMO, at least with a few minor mods anyway.
Certainly there are better designs though.
> **Yep. The Gainclone is nothing more exotic than an IC based amp. You'll
> find the same thing in a cheap, mini stereo system. They're used because
> they are cheap and compact. The original Gaincard is a collossal con-job.
Exactly, but the gainclones are at least good value for money and are simple
to build.
As with most IC amps, they are a little short on current capabilty though.
> **Exactly. Kit amps are subject to many variables. Least of all the
tendency
> for kit builders to take short cuts. Follow the directions to the letter,
> use a good design and you'll likely have no problems. The SC ULD amp is a
> bloody good start, IMO. The best kit amp I have ever seen/built/heard, by
a
> considerable margin.
Agreed, and still questionable value if your time is worth anything at all.
Even if it's not you'd have to love amp building.
MrT.
Mr.T
"Phil Allison" <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3fctavF...@individual.net...
>> Take a look at the DSE
> > A2760 for example, a lot of parts for $146.
>
> ** The price is $199 at either DSE or Tandy stores.
And often sells for $148 in their catalog specials.
(I think $146 may have been a typo?)
MrT.
Trevor Wilson
"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:429111d6$1...@news.comindico.com.au...
>>Here's a few really bad kit amps:
>> * Playmaster (Electronics Australia) 132.
>
> Gee, that goes back a while. The first solid state amp I built. It was
> truly
> crappy.
**Indeed. Mine oscillated when I looked at it the wrong way. It took me ages
and taught me heaps, before I managed to control the instability. Mind you,
the Alan Wright atrocity wasn't much better. It consumed TIP flatpacks with
monotonous regularity. It caused me to decide that a commerical amplifier
was the way to go (Luxman 507).
>
>> * ETI 5000 (Tilbrook designed) amp and the equally appalling matching
>> preamp.
>
> Not as bad as you keep saying IMO, at least with a few minor mods anyway.
> Certainly there are better designs though.
**Every bit as bad as I say. An appalling sounding product. The preamp would
typically consume several dozens of hours to build. Tilbrook must still be
laughing at the poor suckers who tried to build it.
>
>> **Yep. The Gainclone is nothing more exotic than an IC based amp. You'll
>> find the same thing in a cheap, mini stereo system. They're used because
>> they are cheap and compact. The original Gaincard is a collossal con-job.
>
> Exactly, but the gainclones are at least good value for money and are
> simple
> to build.
> As with most IC amps, they are a little short on current capabilty though.
**Exactly. I see little point in bothering with them, given that one can buy
a cheap amp second hand which will comprehensively outperform it.
>
>> **Exactly. Kit amps are subject to many variables. Least of all the
> tendency
>> for kit builders to take short cuts. Follow the directions to the letter,
>> use a good design and you'll likely have no problems. The SC ULD amp is a
>> bloody good start, IMO. The best kit amp I have ever seen/built/heard, by
> a
>> considerable margin.
>
> Agreed, and still questionable value if your time is worth anything at
> all.
> Even if it's not you'd have to love amp building.
**Spoken like a person who has not heard the SC ULD amp. It's bloody good.
If you think the ULD amp is a rip-off, check out the AKSA.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Phil Allison
"Trevor Wilson"
>>
>>> * ETI 5000 (Tilbrook designed) amp and the equally appalling matching
>>> preamp.
>>
>> Not as bad as you keep saying IMO, at least with a few minor mods anyway.
>> Certainly there are better designs though.
>
> **Every bit as bad as I say. An appalling sounding product.
** But nothing TW says is ever true.
Why should a like long professional charlatan give a * rats arse* about
saying things that are true ??
That would spoil his standing among charlatans.
............ Phil
Phil Allison
"Mr.T"
>
> "Phil Allison"
>>> Take a look at the DSE
>> > A2760 for example, a lot of parts for $146.
>>
>> ** The price is $199 at either DSE or Tandy stores.
>
> And often sells for $148 in their catalog specials.
** So fucking what ?
That is no the usual price and it may never be that price again.
............... Phil
Trevor Wilson
>
> "Trevor Wilson"
>
>>>
>>>> * ETI 5000 (Tilbrook designed) amp and the equally appalling matching
>>>> preamp.
>>>
>>> Not as bad as you keep saying IMO, at least with a few minor mods
>>> anyway.
>>> Certainly there are better designs though.
>>
>> **Every bit as bad as I say. An appalling sounding product.
>
>
> ** But nothing TW says is ever true.
>
**Your assertion that:
* The Alan Wright designed Timbre amplifier is a good design is duly noted.
* The Playmaster 132 is a good design is duly noted.
* The ETI 5000 power is a good design is duly noted.
* The ETI 5000 preamp is a good design and takes only a few hours to build
is duly noted.
* The AKSA amp is good value for money is duly noted.
* The SC ULD amp is a bad design is duly noted.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Phil Allison
"Trevor Wilson"
"Phil Allison"
>
>>
>> * ETI 5000 (Tilbrook designed) amp and the equally appalling matching
>> preamp.
>>
>> Not as bad as you keep saying IMO, at least with a few minor mods anyway.
>> Certainly there are better designs though.
>
> **Every bit as bad as I say. An appalling sounding product.
>
** But nothing TW says is ever true.
Why should a like long professional charlatan give a * rats arse* about
saying things that are true ??
That would spoil his standing among charlatans.
> **Your assertion that:
( snip TW's insane verbal garbage)
** More criminal lies from TW - no such assertions came from me.
Trevor Wilson
www.outrageaudio.com.au
.............. Phil
Trevor Wilson
>
> ** - no such assertions came from me.
**I'm afraid they are EXACTLY what you asserted.
Squirm away, if that makes you happy.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
atec
> "Trevor Wilson"
>
>
>>>>* ETI 5000 (Tilbrook designed) amp and the equally appalling matching
>>>>preamp.
>>>
>>>Not as bad as you keep saying IMO, at least with a few minor mods anyway.
>>>Certainly there are better designs though.
>>
>>**Every bit as bad as I say. An appalling sounding product.
>
>
>
> ** But nothing TW says is ever true.
He has in the past asserted you are an arsehole , that's proven correct
on a daily basis .
>
>
>
>
> ............ Phil
>
>
Phil Allison
"Trevor Wilson"
>
> "Phil Allison" >>
>> ** - no such assertions came from me.
>
> **I'm afraid they are EXACTLY what you asserted.
** Shame how you posted them and not me - fuckhead.
Trevor Wilson
A Criminal Liar
www.outrageaudio.com.au
.......... Phil
paul packer
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>That is no the usual price
Are you Scottish, Phil?
David Morton
> Started looking at some of the amp kits available from the likes of
> Altronics, Jaycar, Silicon Chip etc. I am interested in some reviews
> and suggestions of which kits to consider. Preferance is for at least
> 100W/channel (interested in AMP only kits as well i.e. doesn't include
> power supply or be in a stereo configuration).
>
> Conrad
>
I have come across the following web page:
<http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/lcaudio/lc_audio_zapsolute.htm>.
I don't know what they are like. Certainly not cheap.
Also this:
<http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/lcaudio/lc_audio_zappulse.htm>.
Huge claims, such as "Sound quality is comparable to the best Class A
amplifiers available". It isn't really a full kit though, you need to
add a case with inputs/outputs, transformer and power suppy.
Cheers.
Greg Erskine
for the gross deception. ;(
It does seem to be on special regularly every few months.
"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:42914953$0$8120$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Belial
> Ooops! Just spend 3 hours checking my Visa statements and it was $148, sorry
> for the gross deception. ;(
>
Ben
Greg Erskine
> tendency for kit builders to take short cuts. Follow the directions to the
> letter, use a good design and you'll likely have no problems. The SC ULD
> amp is a bloody good start, IMO. The best kit amp I have ever
> seen/built/heard, by a considerable margin.
> --
> Trevor Wilson
> www.rageaudio.com.au
Hey Trevor could you clarify a couple of things for me, I don't want to
build the wrong amp.
The amp I am looking at is the"Ultra-LD 2 x 100W stereo amplifier" from
SiliconChip November and December 2001.
Is this the one your are referring to?
When doing comparisions were you using the preamp section?
Did you do use the standard kit components?
The schematic I'm looking at looks pretty much like lots of other low TIM
amps. The only thing that's not common is the regulated supply for the first
two stages and unregulated for the output stage.
Thanks
Greg
Trevor Wilson
>> **Exactly. Kit amps are subject to many variables. Least of all the
>> tendency for kit builders to take short cuts. Follow the directions to
>> the letter, use a good design and you'll likely have no problems. The SC
>> ULD amp is a bloody good start, IMO. The best kit amp I have ever
>> seen/built/heard, by a considerable margin.
>> --
>> Trevor Wilson
>> www.rageaudio.com.au
>
> Hey Trevor could you clarify a couple of things for me, I don't want to
> build the wrong amp.
>
> The amp I am looking at is the"Ultra-LD 2 x 100W stereo amplifier" from
> SiliconChip November and December 2001.
>
> Is this the one your are referring to?
**Yep.
>
> When doing comparisions were you using the preamp section?
**Yep.
>
> Did you do use the standard kit components?
**Yep. Then I modified it. However, in standard trim, it is bloody good.
>
> The schematic I'm looking at looks pretty much like lots of other low TIM
> amps. The only thing that's not common is the regulated supply for the
> first two stages and unregulated for the output stage.
**Nope. The use of Collectors tied to the load is unusual. It is fundamental
to why it actually sounds good.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Alan Rutlidge
"paul packer" <pac...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:4291787f...@news.iprimus.com.au...
No, he's just a naughty boy.
S Roby
>> amps what you say will always be true. Take a look at the DSE A2760 for
>> example, a lot of parts for $146.
>
The cases always seemed to take much longer to build than the actual amps
modules (& never seemed to look very nice)
S Roby
>
>> * ETI 5000 (Tilbrook designed) amp and the equally appalling matching
>> preamp.
>
>Not as bad as you keep saying IMO, at least with a few minor mods anyway.
Ive seen alot of comments about the instability of this amp.
I built the AEM version of this design, nothing but problems including the
driver transistors often blowing causing a few resistors to actually catch
fire.( Is this due to non motorolla parts being supplied with the kit or were
these transistors perhaps operating outside the soar curve???)
Greg Erskine
Thanks for the answers Trevor.
On your very the last point, unless I'm misunderstanding you completely
(which is likely), "Collectors tied to the load" is fundamental in CF
topology and is not uncommon. Douglas Self's Trimodal amp is CF topolgy and
is similar to the Ultra-LD. Rod Elliott is a CF devotee. There are others
that who would say "CF is fundamental to why it sounds bad". I've built both
EF and CF topology amps and although the amps I prefer happen to be EF I
could not honestly say the topology was the deciding factor.
Greg Erskine
I actually bought mine for the case. I was going to put a Gainclone in it
but decided to have a listen before pulling it apart. To my surprise it
sounded better than a $123 to $199 amp should. When I opened it up, I was
expecting a chipamp of some kind but found a reasonably complex discrete amp
with nice Tobshiba output devcices. Anyway, I found the schematic on the net
and I've been having a go at making it a bit better. So far no smoke.
paul packer
<gersk...@ITtpg.com.au> wrote:
>Ooops! Just spend 3 hours checking my Visa statements and it was $148, sorry
>for the gross deception. ;(
Why would you spend 3 hours checking a minor fact for the people on
this NG? Trust me, we're not worth it.
paul packer
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Trevor Wilson"
>>
>> "Phil Allison" >>
>>> ** - no such assertions came from me.
>>
>> **I'm afraid they are EXACTLY what you asserted.
>
>
> ** Shame how you posted them and not me
How could he post you? You wouldn't go through the slot.
Phil Allison
"paul packer"
"Phil Allison"
>
>>"Trevor Wilson"
>>>
>>> "Phil Allison" >>
>>>> ** - no such assertions came from me.
>>>
>>> **I'm afraid they are EXACTLY what you asserted.
>>
>>
>> ** Shame how you posted them and not me
>
> How could he post you? You wouldn't go through the slot.
** Run out of 5 year olds to molest today ??
............. Phil
Phil Allison
"Trevor Wilson"
>
> **Nope. The use of Collectors tied to the load is unusual. It is
> fundamental to why it actually sounds good.
>
** A raving MAD charlatan spewing fucking bullshit .
TW is an utter ignoramus and an utter ass.
Trevor Wilson
A bloody Criminal
www.outrageaudio.com.au
........... Phil
Greg Erskine
Paul,
I been lurking for many many years, so I know the boys (and girl/s) well.
I rather use a little, (oops I was about to say tongue in cheek......)
sarcasm than be rude.
Phil Allison
"Greg Erskine"
>
> I been lurking for many many years, so I know the boys (and girl/s) well.
** You know SFA about anything, Erskine - you are just another pig
ignorant shithead mindlessly bolstering the charlatans, stooges and scum of
the earth criminals that continue to ruin this NG .
> I rather use a little, (oops I was about to say tongue in cheek......)
> sarcasm than be rude.
** Sure, sure - sarcastic cunts like you have their tongues in lots of
cheeks.
.......... Phil
Johnny
Where did you find the schematic on the net?
I am curious to take a look.
regards,
Johnny.
atec
> "Greg Erskine"
>
>
>>I been lurking for many many years, so I know the boys (and girl/s) well.
>
>
>
> ** You know SFA about anything, Erskine - you are just another pig
> ignorant shithead mindlessly bolstering the charlatans, stooges and scum of
> the earth criminals that continue to ruin this NG .
>
>
>
>>I rather use a little, (oops I was about to say tongue in cheek......)
>>sarcasm than be rude.
>
>
>
>
> cheeks.
>
>
>
>
>
> .......... Phil
>
>
You might be right phillip but its patently obvious not near yours due
to the anger involved in your post .
Alan Rutlidge
Phil, you really are one sick puppy aren't you?
Alan Rutlidge
"atec" <ate...@xxhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4291d476$1...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
I've just looked out the window and noticed a full moon. I didn't really
have to do that. I guessed it must have been so because Phil is always at
his "best", or more precisely - his worst when there is a full moon. Kinda
must be like his full moon fever is in full swing during this part of the
loony (oops) luna cycle.:)
Phil Allison
Rutmaniac Arse Bandit
"Phil Allison"
"paul packer"
>
>> ** Shame how you posted them and not me
>>>
>>> How could he post you? You wouldn't go through the slot.
>>
>
> ** Run out of 5 year olds to molest today ??
> Phil, you really are one sick puppy aren't you?
** Shame how the Paul Packer "sicko in residence" posted this here last
Oct 1:
---------------------------------------------------------------
" Well, I do fantasise about caning you, Phil, if that counts. "
> ** Got a nice collection of J-PEGs on your PC ???
" Yes, pictures of naked boys being caned--onto whose heads I
superimpose your face. "
> ** Get ya hot does it - Paul ??? The NSW Police child porn squad is
> interested in you.
" As for the NSW boys in blue, if they want a chuckle they're welcome
around my place anytime. In fact I'm thinking of printing out these
pictures of little naked bodies with the ugly adult face on them. I'm
going to call them "Phil-istines". Should make my fortune. "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
** Bet anything PP is not even faintly in RAB's league.
............ Phil
TT
: I been lurking for many many years, so I know the boys
(and girl/s) well.
:
: I rather use a little, (oops I was about to say tongue in
cheek......)
: sarcasm than be rude.
Well it's good to see you finally have "come out". I mean,
have stopped lurking ;-)
If you have been observing this little clique for so long
then will surely know who to avoid *when* he responds to
you - despite any overt aggression.
Welcome to the group. Post as much as you like and remember
"Don't be intimidated by the Group's resident Troll".
BTW what sort of gear do you have and what music are you
into? (yeah, I know, I asked a hi-fi related question.
Silly me!) :-)
Regards TT
Phil Allison
"TT"
> "Don't be intimidated by the Group's resident Troll".
** Good advice.
TT (aka the #Grease Monkey or Tencer the Troll ) likes to posture as a
criminal psycho but is really just full of himself, hot air and bullshit.
# TT is a gearbox mechanic from Bunbury, hates hi-fi, is a HT cretin and a
big fan of Elton John.
........... Phil
TT
"Phil Allison" <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3ffcvhF...@individual.net...
:
: "TT"
:
: > "Don't be intimidated by the Group's resident Troll".
:
:
: ** Good advice.
:
: TT (aka the #Grease Monkey or Tencer the Troll
identifier ) likes to post about a
: criminal psycho but really is just full of good advice.
:
:
: # TT is a gearbox mechanic from Bunbury, hates hi-fi
imbeciles, is a HT advocate and a
: big fan of Elton John, Fleetwood Mac, Pink Floyd, Diana
Krall, Dire Straights, ZZ Top, ACDC, The Corrs, Jethro Tull,
Joni Mitchell, Kate Bush, The Who, Credence (especially Bad
Moon Rising as it makes him think of Phil. BTW Tull's -
Thick as a Brick as well ) and more.
:
:
: ........... Phil (resident Troll, uni drop-out &
anti-socialite)
:
:
Further *pointless* discussion with you will now cease.
TT
Mr.T
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:4291...@news.comindico.com.au...
ages
> and taught me heaps, before I managed to control the instability.
What took you so long? Mine was noisy, poor distortion etc.
> **Every bit as bad as I say. An appalling sounding product.
Yours maybe. That's the thing about kit amps though, your never quite sure
if they're all the same.
>The preamp would
> typically consume several dozens of hours to build. Tilbrook must still be
> laughing at the poor suckers who tried to build it.
I never built the pre-amp, although I didn't see anything wrong with it at
the time.
However I totally agree that construction takes more time than it's worth
for any thing similar.
> **Exactly. I see little point in bothering with them, given that one can
buy
> a cheap amp second hand which will comprehensively outperform it.
Yes, as I already said.
> **Spoken like a person who has not heard the SC ULD amp. It's bloody good.
Yes I have, sounds quite neutral like most modern amps. Measures well too.
That's not my point.
> If you think the ULD amp is a rip-off, check out the AKSA.
The fact that the AKSA is a rip off is irrelevant.
MrT.
Phil Allison
"TT"
.......... Phil (resident Troll, uni drop-out &
anti-socialite)
** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!
The Grease Monkey cretin is a real hoot !!!!!
Where did this " anti-socialite " bit come from ????
I am not anti people like Diana Fisher or Sonia McMahon.
........... Phil
Mr.T
> > And often sells for $148 in their catalog specials.
>
Exactly what I thought about your quibble too.
> That is no the usual price and it may never be that price again.
Well it *Has* sold at that price as the OP said. Even at $198, it's not a
bad buy IMO. I'd probably wait if I actually wanted one and wasn't too
desperate though.
MrT.
Phil Allison
"Mr.T"
>
> "Phil Allison"
>> > And often sells for $148 in their catalog specials.
>>
>> ** So fucking what ?
>
> Exactly what I thought about your quibble too.
>
** Piss off - cretin.
>> That is not the usual price and it may never be that price again.
>
>
> Well it *Has* sold at that price as the OP said.
** Irrelevant what the price was once for a short time.
The usual and current price is the one to quote.
............. Phil
Mr.T
"David Morton" <dsmo...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:42917d8a$0$25162$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> <http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/lcaudio/lc_audio_zapsolute.htm>.
>Certainly not cheap.
Agreed, $5k for 118W * 2 channel kit.
(Half of it for the capacitors I think :-)
Looks like it might perform OK though.
> <http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/lcaudio/lc_audio_zappulse.htm>.
>
> Huge claims, such as "Sound quality is comparable to the best Class A
> amplifiers available". It isn't really a full kit though, you need to
> add a case with inputs/outputs, transformer and power suppy.
I particularly like these bits :
---------------------------
*No safety system has been implemented* that could compromise the sound
quality.
Load dump protection system.
DC protection system.
Onboard DC servo, short circuit protection *(both optional)*
Channel RF switching interference *virtually* eliminated.
Modulation circuit redesigned for a THD reduction in mid - high ranges.
Signal path reduced for critical high speed switching signals, to improve
S/N ratio.
Low Noise *option*.
----------------------------
$375 per single channel bare module!!!!!!!
At least there is plenty of room for price reductions in future :-)
And you don't need big heat sinks for a digital amp, so you save a few
dollars there :-) :-)
MrT.
Mr.T
"S Roby" <em...@gooble.gooble> wrote in message
> Ive seen alot of comments about the instability of this amp.
Changing the arrangement of gate resistors and gate capacitors was all that
was required for me.
> I built the AEM version of this design, nothing but problems including the
> driver transistors often blowing causing a few resistors to actually catch
> fire.( Is this due to non motorolla parts being supplied with the kit or
were
> these transistors perhaps operating outside the soar curve???)
Not sure, I always used genuine MJE340/350 drivers rather than the inferior
BF469/470.
No problem with 6 modules.
MrT.
Mr.T
> ** Irrelevant what the price was once for a short time.
3 times already that I have seen, another time in a package deal with some
speakers for $199.
> The usual and current price is the one to quote.
Probably best to quote what he paid and RRP, but you'd only complain about
something else.
MrT.
Alan Rutlidge
Of course not Phil. You just suffer from full moon fever.
This newsgroup was so enjoyable to peruse until you started posting to it
again.
Sigh.......
>
>
>
>
>
> ........... Phil
>
>
>
>
Greg Erskine
"Johnny" <joh...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com.> wrote in message
news:oek391lufia9729ue...@4ax.com...
Greg Erskine
> into? (yeah, I know, I asked a hi-fi related question.
> Silly me!) :-)
>
> Regards TT
>
I'm only interested in DIY stuff so I don't have too much to offer this NG.
By chance, I seem to nearly always build Australian DIY amps, so I do have a
few. :) I don't have any big name, big budget commercial stuff so I'm just
happy in ingorant bliss. (as pointed out by our resident Nostradamus)
As far as music is concerned, it has to be $10 or less.
Greg
nowater
even used, for the price of a kit amp?
"S Roby" <em...@gooble.gooble> wrote in message
news:K2Wje.2031$U4.2...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>
> Hi there.
> Ive a few questions for the more experienced.......
> Given the resources of most Commercial hifi amp makers, surely they
> could/can/do design significantly better amps than (say) the Silicon Chip
amps
> & sell them at a price less than the cost of buliding a SC amp?????
> Do the kit amps really as great as claimed by some.
> If you were after best 'bang per buck' then would a used amp be a better
bet
> than the $$ needed for kit amps
> Are kit builders too biased when assesing the quality the the amps they
build
> (some of the sound quality claims of chip amp builders are hard to
beleive, ie
> gainclone etc)
>
> Ive built a few kit amps & had to battle with instability due to design
issues
> (guess which kit). Ive read comments in UK & Aus mags about the eariler
> version of some designs having 'stability' issues, why was this never
> mentioned when the amp is still current.
nowater
for decades.
"S Roby" <em...@gooble.gooble> wrote in message
news:grike.2272$U4.2...@news.xtra.co.nz...
>
> >
> >> * ETI 5000 (Tilbrook designed) amp and the equally appalling matching
> >> preamp.
> >
> >Not as bad as you keep saying IMO, at least with a few minor mods anyway.
>
> Ive seen alot of comments about the instability of this amp.
Phil Allison
"Greg Erskine"
** There is something very weird about the NFB loop in the power stages -
it does not include the output transistors !!
Also, the VI limiter is the sort that clamps the output current almost to
zero when it is activated.
Are any THD or other specs published??
........... Phil
Mr.T
"nowater" <now...@grantsellek.com> wrote in message
news:42931...@news.melbourne.pipenetworks.com...
> Excuse me, but what commercial POWER amps (not integrated) are available,
> even used, for the price of a kit amp?
You can buy any number of S/H power amps like Rotel etc, for less than the
price of the SC complete kit. Of course you have to keep your eyes open if
you want a real bargain. You can also get slightly inferior amps new with
warranty for less money. Of course people here will argue endlessly just how
inferior they are, as long as they don't have to prove it in a double blind
listening test.
For a look at the low cost end of the market, try
http://www.behringer.com/A500/index.cfm?lang=ENG
Available soon for $350 AUD RRP. (about $300 with usual discounts) Available
now for a bit more money from Alesis.
Regardless what you think of it, I defy anyone to build something better for
less money, all new parts but time not included.
Another example, try building the SC Studio 350 amp, for less than the new
price of the Behringer EP1500. (~$500AUD with warranty) Then compare the
parts.
BTW. Dick Smith and Jaycar don't seem to stock the SC ULD kit any more. Not
sure about Altronics, Dontronics, WES etc.
Even if you can get the module kits, doing your own metal work can be time
consuming, especially front and rear panels.
Even more especially if you want it to look reasonable.
For those who do like doing it all themselves though, the SC ULD is a good
choice IMO.
MrT.
Alan Rutlidge
"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:429441cf$0$5176$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Altronics still sell the kit for $749. Comes complete with the case (albeit
a bit poxy looking).
http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=K5155
Cheers,
Alan
Mr.T
"Alan Rutlidge iinet.net.au>" <rutlidge@<NO_SPAM> wrote in message
news:429446c2$0$28846$5a62...@per-qv1-newsreader-01.iinet.net.au...
>
> Altronics still sell the kit for $749. Comes complete with the case
(albeit
> a bit poxy looking).
> http://www.altronics.com.au/index.asp?area=item&id=K5155
It would be very interesting to do a blind comparison against say a Rotel
RB-1070 for similar money.
(or only a few dollars more, fully built and guaranteed. Less S/H of course)
MrT.
Johnny
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Greg Erskine"
>
>> http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/325000-349999/330115-sp-01-en-Vollverstaerker_KD-261.pdf
>>
>
>
>** There is something very weird about the NFB loop in the power stages -
>it does not include the output transistors !!
I have heard that some ME amplifiers were designed the same way.
Alan Rutlidge
"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
I agree. The problem with kits is that there is always a possibility that
the components used in the prototype aren't the same types or spec'ed the
same as those supplied in the kit, so even if the utmost care and skill is
taken in its assembly, there is always a possibility that the constructed
kit may not perform as well as the original designer intended.
This has often been the case in the typical magazine type DIY kits. For
economic reasons some kit suppliers use pretty low spec'ed and cheap parts
of questionable quality. Some here would probably argue otherwise, but my
experience has been (as an example) that there are capacitors and there are
capacitors. If the design calls for an electrolytic with low ESR and a high
ripple current rating, you aren't likely to get this supplied in a typical
DSE kit amplifier. Instead you normally get some cheap and nasty capacitor
of lower specification which rapidly becomes over dissipated and eventually
fails when the amplifier is continuously pushed to its limits. Sometimes
the component failure can be catastrophic and result in a hefty cost in
replacement parts well in excess of the cost of fitting the correctly
spec'ed part in the first place.
Another potential problem area is in semiconductors. There have been a
number of well known kit suppliers sourcing some of their power transistors
from questionable manufacturers. The print on the outside of the case may
say it's a 2Nxxxx or whatever, however the die inside the can is rated well
below the original (genuine part) specification. Pushed to anywhere near
its (supposed limit) and it fails. If it happens to be one of the output
devices it almost certainly results in the output having a considerable DC
potential on it and unless protected, quite often stuffs the bass driver(s)
in most speakers. :(
Having expressed some of the negative aspects of kit amplifiers, some
suppliers do provide exceptionally good kits using quality components and
based on sound designs. As with all things the individual needs to make an
informed decision when deciding to go down the kit amplifier path. Cost vs
performance vs value for money and of course probably no warranty and the
need for the basic skills, know-how, tools and test equipment to do the job.
For Joe Average who just wants to enjoy his / her music to a high fidelity
standard, you can't go past a good quality off the shelf amplifier. The
cost other than the amp is in your time auditioning various amps preferably
with your speakers and musical material you are familiar with in your quest
to find a model that suits your needs and expectations within the allowable
budget constraints.
Cheers,
Alan
Phil Allison
"Johnny"
"Phil Allison"
>
>>"Greg Erskine"
>>
>>> http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/325000-349999/330115-sp-01-en-Vollverstaerker_KD-261.pdf
>>>
>>
>>** There is something very weird about the NFB loop in the power
>>tages -
>>it does not include the output transistors !!
>
> I have heard that some ME amplifiers were designed the same way.
** No fooling ???? ;-)
So the DSE 80 wpc amp is just like an ME !!!!!!!!
The crappy quoted figure of 0.5% THD is for real.
See: http://koda.comm-cat.com/images/spec/200312111443110.pdf
.......... Phil
Greg Erskine
Alan,
I couldn't agree more.
There could be a problem with parts in the generic kits, although I have
been lucky so far.
With quality kits, such as the AKSA, the components are carefully selected
and supplied by the designer. Better quality components are supplied and
input transistors matched. A bit of handholding is also available to get
things going. Obviously you pay for this service and it is a personal
decision if it is good value or not. For the experienced or professional it
doesn't make sense to pay for something you could do yourself.
It would be interesting to find out the completion rate of generic kits
versus up market kits.
I don't think Joe Average should or would contemplate a DIY amp. What's the
point?
Greg
Greg Erskine
> On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:41:40 +1000, "Phil Allison"
> <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Greg Erskine"
>>
>>> http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/325000-349999/330115-sp-01-en-Vollverstaerker_KD-261.pdf
>>>
>>
>>
>>** There is something very weird about the NFB loop in the power
>>it does not include the output transistors !!
>
> I have heard that some ME amplifiers were designed the same way.
Other weird things (in my opinion)
* huge gain
* no bias adjustment, but has DC offset adjustment
* the rail voltage seems to high for single output devices
Things that you can't see on the scehmatic
* the output terminals are behind the toriod so the output wires actually
touch the transformer
* power wires are very close to the output wires, no twisting of wires
* small heatsinks (probably adequate though because it is underbiased)
* no earth wire, but it must comply to Australian standards
* the blue LED is way to bright
Phil Allison
"Greg Arsine"
"Johnny"
"Phil Allison"
>
> http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/325000-349999/330115-sp-01-en-Vollverstaerker_KD-261.pdf
>>
>>
>>
>> ** There is something very weird about the NFB loop in the power
>> tages - it does not include the output transistors !!
>>
>> I have heard that some ME amplifiers were designed the same way.
>
> Other weird things (in my opinion)
>
> * huge gain
** All the better to hear you with !!
> * no bias adjustment, but has DC offset adjustment
** They are unrelated parameters.
> * the rail voltage seems to high for single output devices
** At +/- 52 volts the particular devices used are well safe.
> Things that you can't see on the scehmatic
>
> * the output terminals are behind the toriod so the output wires actually
> touch the transformer
** My gawd - how awful .................
> * power wires are very close to the output wires, no twisting of wires
** Crosstalk at 50 Hz is infinitesimal.
> * small heatsinks (probably adequate though because it is underbiased)
** Underbiased according to what law of god ???
> * no earth wire, but it must comply to Australian standards
** I only wish that were really true - the "must comply" bit I mean.
> * the blue LED is way to bright
** Arrrrrrrrggghhhhh - it must sound awful !!!
.............. Phil
TT
>
> ** Arrrrrrrrggghhhhh - it must sound awful !!!
>
> .............. Phil
>
>
on something half decent. You will see what awful really
is.
Geeez! To think that once I actually gave you some credit
for knowing something about hi-fi! I now know what you
meant when you told me the story about listing to some
Hendrix on your beloved old ESls when it brought tears to
your eyes - that happened to me with these. God they are
awful!
TT
Trevor Wilson
"Greg Erskine" <gersk...@ITtpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:4295...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>
>
> Alan,
>
> I couldn't agree more.
>
> There could be a problem with parts in the generic kits, although I have
> been lucky so far.
**I've experienced problems with DSE and Jaycar kits. I've not experienced
problems with Altronics kits, specifically the two ULD amp kits I've
purchased. The amps exceeded their specs.
>
> With quality kits, such as the AKSA, the components are carefully selected
> and supplied by the designer. Better quality components are supplied and
> input transistors matched. A bit of handholding is also available to get
> things going. Obviously you pay for this service and it is a personal
> decision if it is good value or not. For the experienced or professional
> it doesn't make sense to pay for something you could do yourself.
**The AKSA kit is ridiculously priced. At least with (say) the Altronics ULD
kit, the builder gets EVERYTHING required to assemble the amp. At a
significantly lower price than the lower specc'd, over-hyped AKSA one. The
AKSA kit is not supplied with:
* Case and associated hardware.
* Power transformer.
* A full schematic, without first buying the amplifier.
>
> It would be interesting to find out the completion rate of generic kits
> versus up market kits.
>
> I don't think Joe Average should or would contemplate a DIY amp. What's
> the point?
**The enjoyment and satisfaction of building their own equipment. And, in
the case of the SC ULD amp, better performance than anything which
approaches it in cost (sans labour costs, of course). The AKSA is a
different matter, entirely. It is easily possible to buy a commercial amp
for the cost of the AKSA kit.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
> On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:41:40 +1000, "Phil Allison"
> <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Greg Erskine"
>>
>>> http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/325000-349999/330115-sp-01-en-Vollverstaerker_KD-261.pdf
>>>
>>
>>
>>** There is something very weird about the NFB loop in the power
>>it does not include the output transistors !!
>
> I have heard that some ME amplifiers were designed the same way.
**Not quite. Although ALL ME amps utilise no Global NFB, the output stage is
fundamentally different to the DSE amp. For a start, ME amps use Collectors
tied to the load. ME amps eschew the use of an output inductor as well.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Public Image Ltd
>
> With quality kits, such as the AKSA, the components are carefully selected
> and supplied by the designer. Better quality components are supplied and
> input transistors matched. A bit of handholding is also available to get
> things going. Obviously you pay for this service and it is a personal
> decision if it is good value or not. For the experienced or professional it
> doesn't make sense to pay for something you could do yourself.
>
> It would be interesting to find out the completion rate of generic kits
> versus up market kits.
>
> I don't think Joe Average should or would contemplate a DIY amp. What's the
> point?
Where this particular Joe Average would appreciate some hand-holding is
in doing line-level stuff like building an active crossover, or hacking
the output stages of a DVD player. Do you know of anyone locally who
provides that service?
Trevor Wilson
"Public Image Ltd" <muck...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1117157850.1...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> Greg Erskine wrote:
>>
>> With quality kits, such as the AKSA, the components are carefully
>> selected
>> and supplied by the designer. Better quality components are supplied and
>> input transistors matched. A bit of handholding is also available to get
>> things going. Obviously you pay for this service and it is a personal
>> decision if it is good value or not. For the experienced or professional
>> it
>> doesn't make sense to pay for something you could do yourself.
>>
>> It would be interesting to find out the completion rate of generic kits
>> versus up market kits.
>>
>> I don't think Joe Average should or would contemplate a DIY amp. What's
>> the
>> point?
>
> Where this particular Joe Average would appreciate some hand-holding is
> in doing line-level stuff like building an active crossover,
**Why bother? Behringer and others supply very impressive digital
crossovers, at more than reasonable prices.
or hacking
> the output stages of a DVD player. Do you know of anyone locally who
> provides that service?
**Hand holding? No. Doing the actual job? Yes.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Public Image Ltd
> > Where this particular Joe Average would appreciate some hand-holding is
> > in doing line-level stuff like building an active crossover,
>
> **Why bother? Behringer and others supply very impressive digital
> crossovers, at more than reasonable prices.
Call me a luddite, but I'm nervous that the Behringer DAC (plus output
stage) could drag down that of any upstream CD player. Need to try it
for myself, I suppose. Then, in the case of analogue sources, I start
to wonder whether the advantages of digital filtering could be
outweighed by the need to perform both an ADC pre-conversion and a DAC
post-conversion. If we had digital amps and speakers, it would be a
different matter entirely. :-)
Greg Erskine
news:4296...@news.comindico.com.au...
>
> "Johnny" <joh...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com.> wrote in message
> news:qs7b91dl3kh8lchnp...@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:41:40 +1000, "Phil Allison"
>> <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Greg Erskine"
>>>
>>>> http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/325000-349999/330115-sp-01-en-Vollverstaerker_KD-261.pdf
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>** There is something very weird about the NFB loop in the power
>>>it does not include the output transistors !!
>>
>> I have heard that some ME amplifiers were designed the same way.
>
> **Not quite. Although ALL ME amps utilise no Global NFB, the output stage
> is fundamentally different to the DSE amp. For a start, ME amps use
> Collectors tied to the load. ME amps eschew the use of an output inductor
> as well.
>
> --
> Trevor Wilson
> www.rageaudio.com.au
Hey Trevor,
Can you point me to the schematics of a typical ME amp, I'd be really
interested in looking at the topology. I can't really make valid comparisons
without at least seeing the schematic.
Greg
Phil Allison
"Greg Erskine"
>
> Hey Trevor,
>
> Can you point me to the schematics of a typical ME amp,
** They have always been kept secret.
> I'd be really interested in looking at the topology.
** For your prurient interest.
> I can't really make valid comparisons without at least seeing the
> schematic.
** You have no clue how to make *valid* comparisons even with them.
............. Phil
S Roby
>
>I agree. The problem with kits is that there is always a possibility that
>the components used in the prototype aren't the same types or spec'ed the
>same as those supplied in the kit, so even if the utmost care and skill is
>taken in its assembly, there is always a possibility that the constructed
>kit may not perform as well as the original designer intended.
>
>Another potential problem area is in semiconductors. There have been a
>number of well known kit suppliers sourcing some of their power transistors
>from questionable manufacturers. The print on the outside of the case may
On kits Ive bought they were advertised as using 'the best quality parts'
Rather dissapointing when you see what they supplied, ie non motorolla BJT's
that tended to fail.etc etc
Not to mention the counterfeit transistors
Mr.T
> The
> cost other than the amp is in your time auditioning various amps
preferably
> with your speakers and musical material you are familiar with in your
quest
> to find a model that suits your needs and expectations within the
allowable
> budget constraints.
Not really an added cost, since you usually can't compare kit amps at all.
MrT.
Mr.T
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:4296...@news.comindico.com.au...
> the case of the SC ULD amp, better performance than anything which
> approaches it in cost (sans labour costs, of course).
I very much doubt you have compared it in a *blind* test with all the amps
available at a similar price.
Or even measured them all properly.
I guess you just mean compared in price to the ME models that were once
available.
Which begs the question, is a S/H ME better if the price is similar :-) :-)
MrT.
Mr.T
> Call me a luddite, but I'm nervous that the Behringer DAC (plus output
> stage) could drag down that of any upstream CD player.
You're a luddite!
(or prefer uninformed opinion anyway)
>Need to try it
> for myself, I suppose.
That is always a wise move.
>Then, in the case of analogue sources, I start
> to wonder whether the advantages of digital filtering could be
> outweighed by the need to perform both an ADC pre-conversion and a DAC
> post-conversion.
No need to wonder. Good ADC/DAC's are among the best audio devices
available.
Far better than any analog source!
MrT.
Trevor Wilson
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4296...@news.comindico.com.au...
>>
>> "Johnny" <joh...@NOSPAM.hotmail.com.> wrote in message
>> news:qs7b91dl3kh8lchnp...@4ax.com...
>>> On Wed, 25 May 2005 08:41:40 +1000, "Phil Allison"
>>> <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>>"Greg Erskine"
>>>>
>>>>> http://www.produktinfo.conrad.com/datenblaetter/325000-349999/330115-sp-01-en-Vollverstaerker_KD-261.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>** There is something very weird about the NFB loop in the power
>>>>it does not include the output transistors !!
>>>
>>> I have heard that some ME amplifiers were designed the same way.
>>
>> **Not quite. Although ALL ME amps utilise no Global NFB, the output stage
>> is fundamentally different to the DSE amp. For a start, ME amps use
>> Collectors tied to the load. ME amps eschew the use of an output inductor
>> as well.
>>
>> --
>> Trevor Wilson
>> www.rageaudio.com.au
>
> Hey Trevor,
>
> Can you point me to the schematics of a typical ME amp, I'd be really
> interested in looking at the topology. I can't really make valid
> comparisons without at least seeing the schematic.
**You'll need to ask Peter Stein. I cannot help you with a schematic.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4296...@news.comindico.com.au...
>> **The enjoyment and satisfaction of building their own equipment. And, in
>> the case of the SC ULD amp, better performance than anything which
>> approaches it in cost (sans labour costs, of course).
>
> I very much doubt you have compared it in a *blind* test with all the amps
> available at a similar price.
**Indeed, I have not. I have compared the SC ULD with a few amps, however.
An ME550-II, an AKSA 100 Watt kit and an old Tilbrook 5000 design.
> Or even measured them all properly.
**Me and my Sound Technology 1700B beg to dissagree. It may be 30 years old,
but it can still measure phenomenally low levels of distortion.
>
> I guess you just mean compared in price to the ME models that were once
> available.
**Guess all you wish.
> Which begs the question, is a S/H ME better if the price is similar :-)
> :-)
**Depends on the ME. I'd rate the SC ULD ahead of an ME55. Better than an
ME550 in a couple of areas and inferior to the ME550-II in all areas.
PS: YOU bought up the topic of ME, not me.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Mr.T
> **You'll need to ask Peter Stein. I cannot help you with a schematic.
And I'm sure he won't either :-)
MrT.
Mr.T
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:4296...@news.comindico.com.au...
amps
> > available at a similar price.
>
> **Indeed, I have not. I have compared the SC ULD with a few amps, however.
> An ME550-II, an AKSA 100 Watt kit and an old Tilbrook 5000 design.
We can dismiss the last two, they are kits as well! I already agreed the SC
ULD is a good kit amp from the beginning.
Surely the SC ULD did not beat the ME550-II though ???????????
> **Me and my Sound Technology 1700B beg to dissagree. It may be 30 years
old,
> but it can still measure phenomenally low levels of distortion.
And you admit you haven't measured any other commercial amps anyway, despite
claiming none are as good at a similar price!
However there is more to performance than just THD.
> > Which begs the question, is a S/H ME better if the price is similar :-)
> > :-)
> **Depends on the ME. I'd rate the SC ULD ahead of an ME55. Better than an
> ME550 in a couple of areas and inferior to the ME550-II in all areas.
Which ironically IS the *only* commercial amp you have compared it to by
your own admission.
MrT.
Greg Erskine
Oh, I thought you needed to see te schematic before you bought an amp, or
does that rule only apply to kit amps? How do you know what you are getting
for your money?
Phil Allison
"Greg Erskine"
> "Mr.T" "Trevor Wilson"
>>> **You'll need to ask Peter Stein. I cannot help you with a schematic.
>>
>> And I'm sure he won't either :-)
>>
>> MrT.
>
> Oh, I thought you needed to see te schematic before you bought an amp, or
> does that rule only apply to kit amps?
** Virtually all well known, credible home hi-fi and professional amplifier
makers happily supply schematics for their current and earlier model
products. It is only the "boutique" makes run by desperate charlatans that
will not - mainly out of fear of being publicly ridiculed for the
incompetence their designs.
> How do you know what you are getting for your money?
** That is always a non simple question - which is not answered by merely
viewing a schematic.
Since only about one person in about 50,000 can even make sense of an amp
schematic - let alone assess the finer points of design and performance from
merely seeing one - your Q is absurd.
.............. Phil
Mr.T
> Oh, I thought you needed to see te schematic before you bought an amp, or
> does that rule only apply to kit amps? How do you know what you are
getting
> for your money?
You take TW's word for it of course :-)
To be fair ME are not the only ones this bad.
Some however, like Crown, GIVE you a circuit in the box. The dealer can show
it to you before you buy, if you ask them nicely.
MrT.
Trevor Wilson
"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
news:4296f81e$0$5177$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
**I take you've asked him then?
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:4296...@news.comindico.com.au...
>> > I very much doubt you have compared it in a *blind* test with all the
> amps
>> > available at a similar price.
>>
>> **Indeed, I have not. I have compared the SC ULD with a few amps,
>> however.
>> An ME550-II, an AKSA 100 Watt kit and an old Tilbrook 5000 design.
>
> We can dismiss the last two, they are kits as well!
**Well no, we cannot. It is entirely appropriate to compare kit amps with
kit amps, as this is what the OP wants to do. IMO, the SC ULD amp is an
excellent performing kit amp. Indeed, it is an amp which will outperform a
goodly number of commercial designs.
I already agreed the SC
> ULD is a good kit amp from the beginning.
**Indeed, you did.
> Surely the SC ULD did not beat the ME550-II though ???????????
**I did not feel it performed as well subjectively, though it's objective
performance was (mostly) superior.I say mostly, because there are a few
tests I like to perform which tend to show up deficiencies in amps, where
the SC ULD did not stack up against the ME550-II. Most of those tests
involve the amp's ability to deal with extreme conditions.
>
>> **Me and my Sound Technology 1700B beg to dissagree. It may be 30 years
> old,
>> but it can still measure phenomenally low levels of distortion.
>
> And you admit you haven't measured any other commercial amps anyway,
> despite
> claiming none are as good at a similar price!
**Wrong. I have measred literally thousands of commercial amps, over the
last 30 years. And correct, I have not found an amplifier which performs as
well as the SC ULD for the price of the KIT.
> However there is more to performance than just THD.
**Indeed. When an amp piques my interest, I perform lots of tests. Most do
not pique my interest, however, since they tend to fail some pretty basic
test routines.
>
>> > Which begs the question, is a S/H ME better if the price is similar :-)
>> > :-)
>> **Depends on the ME. I'd rate the SC ULD ahead of an ME55. Better than an
>> ME550 in a couple of areas and inferior to the ME550-II in all areas.
>
> Which ironically IS the *only* commercial amp you have compared it to by
> your own admission.
**Not quite. It is the only RANGE commercial amps (the ME55, ME550 and
ME550-II are three, completely different products) I've compared to it
DIRECTLY. Since the ME550-II is my 'yardstick' and I have compared the
ME550-II to a large number of commercial amps, I have a point of reference.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
> "Mr.T" <MrT@home> wrote in message
> news:4296f81e$0$5177$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
>> news:4296f411$1...@news.comindico.com.au...
>>> **You'll need to ask Peter Stein. I cannot help you with a schematic.
>>
>> And I'm sure he won't either :-)
>>
>> MrT.
>
> Oh, I thought you needed to see te schematic before you bought an amp, or
> does that rule only apply to kit amps?
**Indeed it does. Did you ask for a copy of the schematic for an AKSA amp,
before you purchased, or does your rule only apply to ME amps?
How do you know what you are getting
> for your money?
**You measure/listen, of course. Have you asked Peter Stein about a copy of
the schematic for one of his amps, for which he holds sole copyrights?
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Greg Erskine
Thanks Trevor,
Interesting there are different rules for commercial and kit amps.
At the time I bought mine there was a "typical" schematic on Rod Elliott's
site. The latest "typical" schematic is on one of the forums. By the way,
its not me defining the rules, it the owner of the IP and poeple in the
hi-fi industry, like yourelf. I'm a comsumer, I can only influence the rules
by buying or not buying.
I don't have the equipment to test amps so I'll have to trust you. IMHO as
far as listening, I have found listening is pretty much a waste of time
UNLESS you can listen to the amp in your own home with your own equipment.
Also you need to do extended A/B testing as the difference between some amps
is minimal. YMMV of course as these are my personal feelings rather the laws
that apply to everyone.
No I haven't asked Peter Stein as I feel you know the answer and are setting
me up for an embrassement as well as wasting Peter's valuable time. If it
was available YOU would know.
Greg
Phil Allison
"Trevor Wilson"
>
> "Mr.T"
>>
>>> **You'll need to ask Peter Stein. I cannot help you with a schematic.
>>
>> And I'm sure he won't either :-)
>
> **I take you've asked him then?
>
** How do you ask someone who cannot even be found ??
Trevor Wilson - charlatan in residence
www.outrageaudio.com.au
.............. Phil
Trevor Wilson
**I am unaware of a specific set of rules. You're the one mentioning rules.
Each manufacturer and distributor decides how his/her intellectual property
is to be disseminated. Some manufacturers refuse to supply schematics, under
any circumstances. Some will only supply to accredited service people. Still
others will supply, but at such huge cost, that few actually purchase.
Others supply schematics free of charge to all. Kit amps are a different
matter. ALL Silicon Chip (and, to a lesser degree: ETI, Electronics
Australia, Elektor, et al) kit designs can be purchased at modest cost from
the copyright holders. So, I guess, the rules are different for kit amps.
The vast majority of kit amp schematics can be purchased at minimal cost, or
for the cost of the publication only. Except AKSA amps, of course. Their
schematics are available at a cost of several hundred Dollars. ANd make no
mistake: It is utterly and completely vital, that a kit amp be supplied with
a FULL and complete schematic. Commercial amplifiers are under no such
strictures.
>
> At the time I bought mine there was a "typical" schematic on Rod Elliott's
> site. The latest "typical" schematic is on one of the forums.
**Points:
* AKSA do not publish a schematic for anyone not purchasing a kit.
* A "typical" schematic, is not an ACTUAL schematic.
By the way,
> its not me defining the rules, it the owner of the IP and poeple in the
> hi-fi industry, like yourelf. I'm a comsumer, I can only influence the
> rules by buying or not buying.
**Indeed.
>
> I don't have the equipment to test amps so I'll have to trust you. IMHO as
> far as listening, I have found listening is pretty much a waste of time
> UNLESS you can listen to the amp in your own home with your own equipment.
**I agree with you 100%. Which is why, since 1979, I have provided extended
listening, in the client's own home, for products I sell to people who wish
it. That extended listening, may be as much as several weeks.
> Also you need to do extended A/B testing as the difference between some
> amps is minimal. YMMV of course as these are my personal feelings rather
> the laws that apply to everyone.
**Of course.
>
> No I haven't asked Peter Stein as I feel you know the answer and are
> setting me up for an embrassement as well as wasting Peter's valuable
> time. If it was available YOU would know.
**Until you ask, you will never know. I do not speak for Peter, nor do I
(nor am I legally able) to disseminate HIS intellectual property. Nor will I
ever do so. Pick up the latest issue of Silicon Chip, for an interesting
Editorial about intellectual property, if you wish. Let me say this much: IF
you were actually interested in buying an ME amplifier (AFTER an extended
listen, of course), I would be happy to approach Peter on your behalf, to
obtain permission to show you a schematic (free of charge) of the specific
product (if I have it available). You did not see a FULL schematic of the
AKSA, until after you plonked you money down, so my offer is clearly more
than generous. The AKSA schematic cost you several hundred Dollars.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Phil Allison
"Greg Erskine"
>>
>> Interesting there are different rules for commercial and kit amps.
** Nearly all kit amps are published designs - so of course the damn
schematic is available !!
> **I am unaware of a specific set of rules.
** TW is unaware of reality.
> Each manufacturer and distributor decides how his/her intellectual
> property is to be disseminated.
** Pompous crap - a schematic is the lowest form of IP, merely a wiring
diagram of what has been manufactured.
> Some manufacturers refuse to supply schematics, under any circumstances.
> Some will only supply to accredited service people. Still others will
> supply, but at such huge cost, that few actually purchase.
** What TW fails to point out is that ANYONE (with the patience) can trace
out the schematic of an electrical / electronic product and make copies of
their drawing which THEY own the rights to available to anyone. Such
privately generated schematics are to be found all over the net for many
famous & older products.
> Kit amps are a different matter. ALL Silicon Chip (and, to a lesser
> degree: ETI, Electronics Australia, Elektor, et al) kit designs can be
> purchased at modest cost from the copyright holders.
** Or just get a copy of the relevant magazine from a library.
> So, I guess, the rules are different for kit amps.
** If the schematic has been published - yes. Such published kit designs
are OPEN for any electronics retailer to produce kits in full or PCB&parts
only form.
> The vast majority of kit amp schematics can be purchased at minimal cost,
> or for the cost of the publication only. Except AKSA amps, of course.
> Their schematics are available at a cost of several hundred Dollars.
** Since it is NOT a published design and ONE supplier wants to have all
the business. The PCB pattern is also covered by copyright - but as with
the schematic, producing a redrawn version is no infringement.
>> No I haven't asked Peter Stein as I feel you know the answer and are
>> setting me up for an embrassement as well as wasting Peter's valuable
>> time. If it was available YOU would know.
>
> **Until you ask, you will never know.
** Until you can find the prick - you cannot even ask !!!!!!
> I do not speak for Peter, nor do I (nor am I legally able) to disseminate
> HIS intellectual property.
** Get real TW - the main reason ME schematics are kept private is to
increase the MYSTERY value of a snake oil product by preventing public
discussion of the REAL technical details.
It also discourages all outsiders from carrying out repairs on ME amps - so
Peter Stein can have a monopoly on that and charge what he damn well likes.
.............. Phil