ME 550-II
Stuart Clarke
With a view to purchasing an ME amplifier, I recently borrowed an ME
550-II from Tony Mills (sorry Trev, but I really did have to try this one
at home before buying :-)). On testing it, however, I noticed a number of
oddities, not the least of which was an Afghani man talking about George
W. Bush from within my speakers...
First, the fan (fans?). I found it to be quite loud indeed. Has anyone
else had this problem? I guess I'd label the sound as tolerable under
normal listening conditions, but the noise when the fan (seemed to have)
dropped to a very low speed was quite intolerable. Not only that, but the
fan continued at this low speed for more than 20 mins after I switched
the amp off (put it in standby mode). I unplugged it from the wall at
that point :-) The hum from my ME 75's power transformer is much more
pleasant to listen to :)
Next there's the power-line noise susceptibility. I noticed that when
the amp was turned on, there was a _very_ noticeable buzz coming from my
speakers. I then proceeded to unplug (from the wall) my surrounding
components. My subwoofer (which wasn't playing anything at the time) and
my television seemed to be the worst offenders. Also, the amp seemed to
be _very_ susceptible to power line noise from flourescent lights.
Turning a light on (and especially turning one off) caused a LOUD *crack*
to come from my speakers. This has also been a problem with my ME 75, but
to a much smaller degree.
And then there's the Afghani man. Actually, I don't know if he was
Afghani, but there was a man, speaking in a language that I did not
recognise, and he was talking about the American president from within my
speakers. It was quite spooky. My friends and I attempted to find this
man on the radio, but with no luck. I assume, however, that he was on
some sort of shortwave radio broadcast. Do amplifiers normally act as
radio receptors in this way?
Anyway, I was just hoping that ME users (and dealers) would have some
comments and experiences on and with these issues.
Thanks for listening,
Stuart
p.s. With all these issues, I've not yet determined how the damn thing
sounds! I borrowed an ME 200 over the weekend, however, and I own an ME
75, so I'll be able to report with a full comparison when I'm done.
Trevor Wilson
"Stuart Clarke" <s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.30.020130...@student.uq.edu.au...
> Hi all,
>
> With a view to purchasing an ME amplifier, I recently borrowed an ME
> 550-II from Tony Mills (sorry Trev, but I really did have to try this one
> at home before buying :-)). On testing it, however, I noticed a number of
> oddities, not the least of which was an Afghani man talking about George
> W. Bush from within my speakers...
>
> First, the fan (fans?). I found it to be quite loud indeed. Has anyone
> else had this problem? I guess I'd label the sound as tolerable under
> normal listening conditions, but the noise when the fan (seemed to have)
> dropped to a very low speed was quite intolerable. Not only that, but the
> fan continued at this low speed for more than 20 mins after I switched
> the amp off (put it in standby mode). I unplugged it from the wall at
> that point :-) The hum from my ME 75's power transformer is much more
> pleasant to listen to :)
**I gotta say, Stuart, that the ME550-II fan has been a PITA. It is a
fundamentally different fan and control system to the that used in all the
other ME amps. Anyway, as of a few months ago, ME has released a much
quieter fan for this model. Suggest to Tony that he get his demo amp
modified. The difference is well worth while.
>
> Next there's the power-line noise susceptibility. I noticed that when
> the amp was turned on, there was a _very_ noticeable buzz coming from my
> speakers. I then proceeded to unplug (from the wall) my surrounding
> components. My subwoofer (which wasn't playing anything at the time) and
> my television seemed to be the worst offenders. Also, the amp seemed to
> be _very_ susceptible to power line noise from flourescent lights.
> Turning a light on (and especially turning one off) caused a LOUD *crack*
> to come from my speakers. This has also been a problem with my ME 75, but
> to a much smaller degree.
**Urk. These sorts of issues need to be addressed on a system-by-system
basis. They are not confined to ME products, BTW. A dedicated line, run by
your electrican, from the mains board, should elminiate the problem.
>
> And then there's the Afghani man. Actually, I don't know if he was
> Afghani, but there was a man, speaking in a language that I did not
> recognise, and he was talking about the American president from within my
> speakers. It was quite spooky. My friends and I attempted to find this
> man on the radio, but with no luck. I assume, however, that he was on
> some sort of shortwave radio broadcast. Do amplifiers normally act as
> radio receptors in this way?
**They can if there is an earth problem somewhere. Disconnect every item
from your system, then reconnect each one, in turn, until the fault
reappears (assuming it dissappears, in the first place.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
ardz
"Stuart Clarke" <s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.30.020130...@student.uq.edu.au...
BB
they release the 550-II 2 years or so ago?
Does the 850 have the same problem?
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:6LJ58.22497$Ni2.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Chris Botterill
"ardz" <hsvwal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:G0K58.4425$Lv.5...@news.xtra.co.nz...
Stuart Clarke
> from your system, then reconnect each one, in turn, until the fault
> reappears (assuming it dissappears, in the first place.
*** Thanks Trevor. I'll attempt isolation of the problem tonight, and no
doubt approach the group with more questions tomorrow. I'll take your
word for it that the fan problems have been fixed in the latest model
amps.
Stuart
Michael
"BB" <bb...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:newscache$2ogqqg$pq6$1...@news.intrapower.com.au...
Trevor Wilson
"BB" <bb...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:newscache$2ogqqg$pq6$1...@news.intrapower.com.au...
> they release the 550-II 2 years or so ago?
**The ME550-II is a completely different design form the ME550. It uses a
different (less expensive) fan and control circuit, but more expensive
amplification circuits.
> Does the 850 have the same problem?
**Nope. The ME850 uses the same fan control that the ME1500 uses. It is
utterly silent.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Michael
tracks and poignant moments in movies), but I haven't encountered any of the
other problems you mention with mine. One of these days I'll take mine over
to Woolloongabba to get a new fan installed but it's not really too bad.
Looking forward to what you think of it, and the other amps.
"Stuart Clarke" <s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.30.020130...@student.uq.edu.au...
BB
"Michael" <quadha...@HAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c578aac$0$5120$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
BB
etc...) not the circuit that controls it.
Seems that 550-II is noisy when the fan speed is slow.
Does the 850 use different fan? Gold plated shaft, ... :)
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:O_L58.22770$Ni2.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
michael w
"ardz" <hsvwal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:G0K58.4425$Lv.5...@news.xtra.co.nz...
> Buy a Plinius :-))
>
>
I second that !
LOL
The 8200P is totally silent and immune to RFI etc.
cheerio
Tony Lai
> Buy a Plinius :-))
I find fans in poweramps to be clear cut - they aren't necessary. A
lot of amps more powerful than the 550 don't have them so why bother?
PSU hum issues are a given in many pre/pro/power situations. I had a
dastardly hum with a receiver + preouts and a poweramp. I solved it
with a better power cord. Thank god for IEC sockets. Eventually a
dedicated preamp made things even more quiet. There is now no hum, no
hiss, no buzz from any channel and that's with everything powered up
(ie. VCR, LD, HTPC, DVD etc.)
T.
Preamp
<s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
Oh dear, this from the worlds's best amp? :-)
Preamp
>"ardz" <hsvwal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<G0K58.4425$Lv.5...@news.xtra.co.nz>...
>> Buy a Plinius :-))
>
>I find fans in poweramps to be clear cut - they aren't necessary. A
>lot of amps more powerful than the 550 don't have them so why bother?
>
Uh-oh... I tried to tell Trveor this a while ago, and I got a
diatribe on temperature control and how it is essential. <Sigh>
Stuart Clarke
> lot of amps more powerful than the 550 don't have them so why bother?
*** AFAIK, ME Sound put fans in their amplifiers so as to have precise
temperature control. It's a given that electronic components'
characteristics vary with temperature. It would seem important to the
sound of an amp, therefore, that its operational temperature be maintained
at an optimal point. Such is the purpose of the fans and their associated
control circuitry.
Another thing to note is that ME did not always use fans. My ME 75 (20 -
ack! - years old) has no fans, but rather a demonic array of heatsinks on
the front of the chassis. 'Tis a temperate beast indeed when in use.
Stuart
michael w
"Preamp" <pre...@antispam.dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:3c579d9b...@news.dingoblue.net.au...
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 12:21:30 +1000, Stuart Clarke
> <s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
> Oh dear, this from the worlds's best amp? :-)
I thought the world's bestest amp was the Quad 303..
Still ROTFLMAO over that one !!!
Stuart Clarke
> Oh dear, this from the worlds's best amp? :-)
*** Trevor claims that they've fixed the fan problem in the newer models,
so I'm not too concerned. Also, the Afghani man could have come from
another component (it was there in my ME 75 too). The power line-noise
susceptibility is a concern, however, and I shall hook up my Rotel RB-981
tonight and compare.
Stuart
Stuart Clarke
> diatribe on temperature control and how it is essential. <Sigh>
*** It seems like a sensible idea to me. Do you have anything against
temperature control? Do you not believe that the behaviour of components
will change at different temperatures?
Stuart
Trevor Wilson
> I thought the noise is the result of the fan itself (poor bearings, shaft,
> etc...) not the circuit that controls it.
> Seems that 550-II is noisy when the fan speed is slow.
**No. Ironically, it is when that fan is used at low speeds, that it is
noisy. The old fan tends to 'cog' when it is run at too low a speed. In
fact, one of the fixes, is to crank up the Class A bias a little. This has
the effect of running the fan a little faster, such that cogging is
non-existent.
> Does the 850 use different fan? Gold plated shaft, ... :)
>
**Completely different fan and control system.
The ME550-II uses a 48 Volt DC fan. As the heat sink warms up, a signal is
sent to the control circuit, which sends more Volts to the fan, causing it
to speed up. The fan is a typical, modern DC fan (albeit with ball bearings,
rather than sleeves, for longer life). These fans convert the incoming DC to
a 2 or 3 phase AC waveform, which, in turn drives the brushless motor. Kind
of like direct drive turntables. The catch is, that once the input DC Volts
drops below a critical level, the fan won't work at all. Enough Volts must
be supplied, in order to keep it spinning. Some fans are a little better, in
that they don't cog at low input Volts. The new fan is just such a type.
The ME850 (and, incidentally, the old ME550, ME1400,, ME750, etc) uses a
fundamentally different (and MUCH more expensive system. The fan is a 240
Volt AC fan. It uses a motor which not significantly different to those used
in Linn Sondek turntables. It can ONLY operate on AC Volts. Mounted on the
fan, is an infra-red tacho sensor. This sensor supplies pulses to a
comparator circuit. The other inputs to the comparator, are temperature
signals from the heatsink assemblies. The comparator continually compares
the fan RPM, to the heatsink temperature and sends appropriate signals to
the motor speed control. The AC motor can be varied in speed, linearly all
the way down to zero RPM. There is no cogging and no noise.
Sadly, the cost of the more sophisticated fan, is such that the ME550-II
would have been significantly more expensive, in order to accommodate it.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"Tony Lai" <tla...@visto.com> wrote in message
news:aed8a450.02012...@posting.google.com...
> "ardz" <hsvwal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:<G0K58.4425$Lv.5...@news.xtra.co.nz>...
> > Buy a Plinius :-))
>
> I find fans in poweramps to be clear cut - they aren't necessary.
**Nobody suggested that they were necessary. They're just a much better way
of dealing with heat. MUCH, MUCH better. Properly designed, a fan cooled
heatsink can dissipate more than 10 times the power of convection cooled
one.
A
> lot of amps more powerful than the 550 don't have them so why bother?
**ME employ fans, for very important technical reasons.
*The temperature of the output stage remains constant, regardless of:
Ambient temperature.
Load
Power level
Orientation
*Forced air cooling cools ALL components in the amplifier. Particularly the
filter caps. In convection cooled amps, no attention is paid to keeping
these sensitive ans expensive components cool.
*Reliability is enhanced, thanks to constant operating temperature, due to
the lack of thermal stress on output devices.
*A compact package is possible, for the output stages, thus keeping wiring
to a minimum. The ME1500 output stage can dissipate more than 1kW in a
package occupying around 1 Litre. Try THAT with convection cooling.
*It keeps overall size and mass down.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Preamp
<s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>> Uh-oh... I tried to tell Trveor this a while ago, and I got a
>> diatribe on temperature control and how it is essential. <Sigh>
>
>*** It seems like a sensible idea to me. Do you have anything against
>temperature control?
Unwarranted complicated design never wins my favour.
> Do you not believe that the behaviour of components
>will change at different temperatures?
>
I believe in designs that do not suffer from temperature changes
(unless they are extreme of course). Many manufacturers can build
amps that don't need temperature control circuitry like this. IMO
that makes their design superior..
Trevor Wilson
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:26:39 +1000, Stuart Clarke
> <s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>
> >> Uh-oh... I tried to tell Trveor this a while ago, and I got a
> >> diatribe on temperature control and how it is essential. <Sigh>
> >
> >*** It seems like a sensible idea to me. Do you have anything against
> >temperature control?
>
> Unwarranted complicated design never wins my favour.
**Except that a design needs to be as simple as it needs to be, for optimum
performance. A forced air temperature maintenance system, provides better
temperature regulation and better performance.
>
>
> > Do you not believe that the behaviour of components
> >will change at different temperatures?
> >
>
> I believe in designs that do not suffer from temperature changes
> (unless they are extreme of course). Many manufacturers can build
> amps that don't need temperature control circuitry like this. IMO
> that makes their design superior..
**You forget, that ME once built amplifiers which used no forced air
cooling. The switch to forced air cooling allowed an increase in
performance. It is probable that many other products would enjoy a similar
sonic improvement, if they also employed similar systems. I note, also, that
you have no experience with either the before and after ME amplifiers. Your
opinion is therefore invalid. Your opinion is mere speculation.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Preamp
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Preamp" <pre...@antispam.dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
>news:3c57b5c6...@news.dingoblue.net.au...
>> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:26:39 +1000, Stuart Clarke
>> <s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>>
>> >> Uh-oh... I tried to tell Trveor this a while ago, and I got a
>> >> diatribe on temperature control and how it is essential. <Sigh>
>> >
>> >*** It seems like a sensible idea to me. Do you have anything against
>> >temperature control?
>>
>> Unwarranted complicated design never wins my favour.
>
>**Except that a design needs to be as simple as it needs to be, for optimum
>performance. A forced air temperature maintenance system, provides better
>temperature regulation and better performance.
No evidence of that. In fact, from noise levels alone, it detracts
from performance.
>
>>
>>
>> > Do you not believe that the behaviour of components
>> >will change at different temperatures?
>> >
>>
>> I believe in designs that do not suffer from temperature changes
>> (unless they are extreme of course). Many manufacturers can build
>> amps that don't need temperature control circuitry like this. IMO
>> that makes their design superior..
>
>**You forget, that ME once built amplifiers which used no forced air
>cooling. The switch to forced air cooling allowed an increase in
>performance.
To improve an otherwise deficient design. Forced air temperature
control may have been one solution, but not the only one I'll bet.
>It is probable that many other products would enjoy a similar
>sonic improvement, if they also employed similar systems.
Pure speculation.
>I note, also, that
>you have no experience with either the before and after ME amplifiers. Your
>opinion is therefore invalid. Your opinion is mere speculation.
I have experience with many amps that don't need it. You are the one
speculating that they would benefit from it.
>
>
>--
>Trevor Wilson
>www.rageaudio.com.au
>
>
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >*** It seems like a sensible idea to me. Do you have anything against
> >temperature control?
>
> Unwarranted complicated design never wins my favour.
Shouldn't the performance be more important?
> > Do you not believe that the behaviour of components
> >will change at different temperatures?
> >
>
> I believe in designs that do not suffer from temperature changes
> (unless they are extreme of course). Many manufacturers can build
> amps that don't need temperature control circuitry like this. IMO
> that makes their design superior..
So you feel the technical aspect of a (audio) product makes it superior,
NOT the performance? Is that what your saying?
Regardless of how good or bad an ME sounds, should your opinion be taken
seriously if you have never listened to the product, and more so, do not
want to (you admitted this last time round)?
Just curious.
Rick.
--
Rick Stadelmaier
Equinox Audio
http://www.equinoxaudio.com.au
ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au
Sydney, Australia
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >I find fans in poweramps to be clear cut - they aren't necessary. A
> >lot of amps more powerful than the 550 don't have them so why bother?
> >
>
> Uh-oh... I tried to tell Trveor this a while ago, and I got a
> diatribe on temperature control and how it is essential. <Sigh>
You also could not prove that it isn't a better way of doing things.
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> "ardz" <hsvwal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<G0K58.4425$Lv.5...@news.xtra.co.nz>...
> > Buy a Plinius :-))
>
> I find fans in poweramps to be clear cut - they aren't necessary. A
> lot of amps more powerful than the 550 don't have them so why bother?
Do they have the exact same combination of performance as an ME, for
similar price? Have you done side by side listening tests to confirm
this? Or even done any measurements?
Stuart Clarke
>basis. They are not confined to ME products, BTW. A dedicated line, run by
>your electrican, from the mains board, should elminiate the problem.
*** I may well decide to do just that. I took a look at the power point's
wiring tonight, and found something interesting... The power point has
two plugs, and is fed by a pipe running down the wall, into the top of
which runs a cable. The cable, from what I can tell, runs along a ridge
near the ceiling, to our household fuse panel at the other end of the room.
Now, the strange thing is that the cable has only two separately insulated
parts. I immediately thought that these could be for the two separate
wall plugs, but they're not very big. Around 0.5cm diameter each (if that).
Could it be that there's no ground wire leading to those power points?
Surely that would be both dangerous and illegal.
>**They can if there is an earth problem somewhere. Disconnect every item
>from your system, then reconnect each one, in turn, until the fault
>reappears (assuming it dissappears, in the first place.
*** Well, the fault dissapears immediately if I turn the ME 550-II off.
It reappears, however, as soon as its turned on. I can't figure out how
to turn it on without also turning on my ME 14, however, so it's either
the power amp, the preamp, or the wall socket (I replaced the extension
lead and power boards tonight). Nothing else is plugged into the wall.
I doubt the signal is originating in the preamp, however, as its volume
does not shift when I adjust the preamp's gain knob.
Any suggestions?
Stuart
Mal P
news:Pine.OSF.4.30.020130...@student.uq.edu.au...
>
Tell us how you go Stuart!
Cheers,
Mal
Preamp
wrote:
>
>*** I may well decide to do just that. I took a look at the power point's
>wiring tonight, and found something interesting... The power point has
>two plugs, and is fed by a pipe running down the wall, into the top of
>which runs a cable. The cable, from what I can tell, runs along a ridge
>near the ceiling, to our household fuse panel at the other end of the room.
>Now, the strange thing is that the cable has only two separately insulated
>parts. I immediately thought that these could be for the two separate
>wall plugs, but they're not very big. Around 0.5cm diameter each (if that).
>
>Could it be that there's no ground wire leading to those power points?
>Surely that would be both dangerous and illegal.
Sure would be....
>
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Tony Lai wrote:
>>
>> "ardz" <hsvwal...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<G0K58.4425$Lv.5...@news.xtra.co.nz>...
>> > Buy a Plinius :-))
>>
>> I find fans in poweramps to be clear cut - they aren't necessary. A
>> lot of amps more powerful than the 550 don't have them so why bother?
>
>
>Do they have the exact same combination of performance as an ME, for
>similar price? Have you done side by side listening tests to confirm
>this? Or even done any measurements?
>
Have you?
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >*** It seems like a sensible idea to me. Do you have anything against
>> >temperature control?
>>
>> Unwarranted complicated design never wins my favour.
>
>Shouldn't the performance be more important?
All else being equal, I meant.
>
>> > Do you not believe that the behaviour of components
>> >will change at different temperatures?
>> >
>>
>> I believe in designs that do not suffer from temperature changes
>> (unless they are extreme of course). Many manufacturers can build
>> amps that don't need temperature control circuitry like this. IMO
>> that makes their design superior..
>
>So you feel the technical aspect of a (audio) product makes it superior,
>NOT the performance? Is that what your saying?
No it's not what I was saying.
>
>Regardless of how good or bad an ME sounds, should your opinion be taken
>seriously if you have never listened to the product,
I was commenting on the design and giving it the benefit of the doubt,
assuming it did at least sound as good as the amps I HAVE listened
to... can I be fairer than that?
>and more so, do not
>want to (you admitted this last time round)?
>Just curious.
>
Never said I did not want to. I said I felt it unfair to bother
someone like Trevor into letting me try one, when I was not in the
market for buying one.
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >I find fans in poweramps to be clear cut - they aren't necessary. A
>> >lot of amps more powerful than the 550 don't have them so why bother?
>> >
>>
>> Uh-oh... I tried to tell Trveor this a while ago, and I got a
>> diatribe on temperature control and how it is essential. <Sigh>
>
>
>You also could not prove that it isn't a better way of doing things.
>
Not up to me to do that, I'm not the one claiming it is superior.
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >You also could not prove that it isn't a better way of doing things.
> >
>
> Not up to me to do that, I'm not the one claiming it is superior.
Of course it is up to you, Trevor has explained the reasons why it IS
superior, the onus is now on you as you are doubting his claims, with no
evidence.
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >Do they have the exact same combination of performance as an ME, for
> >similar price? Have you done side by side listening tests to confirm
> >this? Or even done any measurements?
> >
>
> Have you?
Yep.
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >Shouldn't the performance be more important?
>
> All else being equal, I meant.
But is it possible to make such a beast? I know I haven't found one.
> >So you feel the technical aspect of a (audio) product makes it superior,
> >NOT the performance? Is that what your saying?
>
> No it's not what I was saying.
But you said many manufactures can build amps like this without the need
for temperature control. Firstly, how do you know they are 'like this'
(ME) if you haven't heard one? And you then went on to say that that
makes there design superior. Strange words when you don't know how an ME
actually performs.
> >Regardless of how good or bad an ME sounds, should your opinion be taken
> >seriously if you have never listened to the product,
>
> I was commenting on the design and giving it the benefit of the doubt,
> assuming it did at least sound as good as the amps I HAVE listened
> to... can I be fairer than that?
If it were only so. From the discussions I have seen in the past, you
have never given ME the benefit of the doubt.
> >and more so, do not
> >want to (you admitted this last time round)?
> >Just curious.
> >
>
> Never said I did not want to. I said I felt it unfair to bother
> someone like Trevor into letting me try one, when I was not in the
> market for buying one.
So why are you making comments on a product of which you have zero
experience with?
You have said many times that Trevor lacks credibility because he blows
ME's trumpet so hard when he sells them. Why don't you practice what you
preach?
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >You also could not prove that it isn't a better way of doing things.
>> >
>>
>> Not up to me to do that, I'm not the one claiming it is superior.
>
>
>Of course it is up to you, Trevor has explained the reasons why it IS
>superior,
...he has not.
> the onus is now on you as you are doubting his claims, with no
>evidence.
No, it's on the person making the claims.
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >Shouldn't the performance be more important?
>>
>> All else being equal, I meant.
>
>But is it possible to make such a beast? I know I haven't found one.
Try looking harder.
>
>> >So you feel the technical aspect of a (audio) product makes it superior,
>> >NOT the performance? Is that what your saying?
>>
>> No it's not what I was saying.
>
>But you said many manufactures can build amps like this without the need
>for temperature control. Firstly, how do you know they are 'like this'
Quite right, they may indeed be better. And, judging by how well they
are known compared to ME, they probably are better.
>(ME) if you haven't heard one? And you then went on to say that that
>makes there design superior. Strange words when you don't know how an ME
>actually performs.
Simpler design that achieves equal or better outcome IS superior.
>
>> >Regardless of how good or bad an ME sounds, should your opinion be taken
>> >seriously if you have never listened to the product,
>>
>> I was commenting on the design and giving it the benefit of the doubt,
>> assuming it did at least sound as good as the amps I HAVE listened
>> to... can I be fairer than that?
>
>If it were only so. From the discussions I have seen in the past, you
>have never given ME the benefit of the doubt.
So when I do, you still complain. There's no pleasing you is there.
Typical zealot.
>
>> >and more so, do not
>> >want to (you admitted this last time round)?
>> >Just curious.
>> >
>>
>> Never said I did not want to. I said I felt it unfair to bother
>> someone like Trevor into letting me try one, when I was not in the
>> market for buying one.
>
>So why are you making comments on a product of which you have zero
>experience with?
Because it relies on complicated forced cooling. Try to keep up
willya? :-)
>You have said many times that Trevor lacks credibility because he blows
>ME's trumpet so hard when he sells them. Why don't you practice what you
>preach?
Who's trumpet am I blowing? I am not the one who pushes one brand so
hard it is embarrassing.
Why don't we post a simple question on a international hifi newsgroup?
"What is the world's best hifi amp?"
...and see how many time people mention ME vs other brands.
If it is truly the best, I will admit I was wrong, until then i find
this zealous love of ME, well, amusing to say the least.
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >Do they have the exact same combination of performance as an ME, for
>> >similar price? Have you done side by side listening tests to confirm
>> >this? Or even done any measurements?
>> >
>>
>> Have you?
>
>
>Yep.
>
>Rick.
Please publish your results. What did you compare it with? What was
your testing methodology?
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >Of course it is up to you, Trevor has explained the reasons why it IS
> >superior,
>
> ...he has not.
So whats this then?
<< Snipped from one of Trevors posts a few hours ago >>
Properly designed, a fan cooled
heatsink can dissipate more than 10 times the power of convection cooled
one.
**ME employ fans, for very important technical reasons.
*The temperature of the output stage remains constant, regardless of:
Ambient temperature.
Load
Power level
Orientation
*Forced air cooling cools ALL components in the amplifier. Particularly
the
filter caps. In convection cooled amps, no attention is paid to keeping
these sensitive ans expensive components cool.
*Reliability is enhanced, thanks to constant operating temperature, due
to
the lack of thermal stress on output devices.
*A compact package is possible, for the output stages, thus keeping
wiring
to a minimum. The ME1500 output stage can dissipate more than 1kW in a
package occupying around 1 Litre. Try THAT with convection cooling.
*It keeps overall size and mass down.
<< End of snip >>
> > the onus is now on you as you are doubting his claims, with no
> >evidence.
>
> No, it's on the person making the claims.
Well, I just ran his evidence by you again, are you able to provide any
evidence to the contrary of any of his claims?
I'm very interested in your attempt at this, considering you haven't
heard an ME.
BB
interference, so doesn't the fan itself and associated circuitry introduce
noise into the amp?
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:lCN58.23046$Ni2.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >But is it possible to make such a beast? I know I haven't found one.
>
> Try looking harder.
Nice try.
> >But you said many manufactures can build amps like this without the need
> >for temperature control. Firstly, how do you know they are 'like this'
>
> Quite right, they may indeed be better. And, judging by how well they
> are known compared to ME, they probably are better.
So now it is how well known a product is, as to it's superiority.
Wouldn't that make Sony the best?
> >(ME) if you haven't heard one? And you then went on to say that that
> >makes there design superior. Strange words when you don't know how an ME
> >actually performs.
>
> Simpler design that achieves equal or better outcome IS superior.
But you don't know if it equals anything?!
> >If it were only so. From the discussions I have seen in the past, you
> >have never given ME the benefit of the doubt.
>
> So when I do, you still complain. There's no pleasing you is there.
> Typical zealot.
Your losing credibility fast.
> >So why are you making comments on a product of which you have zero
> >experience with?
>
> Because it relies on complicated forced cooling. Try to keep up
> willya? :-)
Nutha' nice try.
> >You have said many times that Trevor lacks credibility because he blows
> >ME's trumpet so hard when he sells them. Why don't you practice what you
> >preach?
>
> Who's trumpet am I blowing? I am not the one who pushes one brand so
> hard it is embarrassing.
No, but your doing your best to give it an unfair chance, simply because
you don't like Trevor blowing the trumpet.
If you have a beef with the trumpet blowing, have a go at Trevor, why
tarnish a great OZ product? Particularly when you have never actually
heard the product, so don't know how good or bad it is.
> Why don't we post a simple question on a international hifi newsgroup?
> "What is the world's best hifi amp?"
> ...and see how many time people mention ME vs other brands.
> If it is truly the best, I will admit I was wrong, until then i find
> this zealous love of ME, well, amusing to say the least.
Ludicrous question. A better question is why don't you have a listen for
yourself instead of listening to other peoples opinions.
Sean
Trevor or Rick, I'm just curious to know if the fan being debated has some
form of safety cutout or thermal protection device (in case it siezes or
whatever) ?
and.......does the 550 upgrade option also include an upgraded fan?
rgds Sean
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >> >Do they have the exact same combination of performance as an ME, for
> >> >similar price? Have you done side by side listening tests to confirm
> >> >this? Or even done any measurements?
> >>
> >> Have you?
> >
> >Yep.
> >
> >Rick.
>
> Please publish your results. What did you compare it with? What was
> your testing methodology?
I have no results, sorry, very informal testing.
I have compared ME with the likes of Krell, Audio Research, Rotel,
Classe, NAD, Redgum, etc. (There have been others, though not worth
mentioning).
In many cases I reliably know when the ME is being used and in some
cases the alternate amplifier was indistinguishable.
The methodology ranged from side by side blind testing to periods of
days where I don't know which amplifier is being used in my day to day
system.
Many may say the above testing is flawed, however I have made the
effort, sometimes with surprising results.
How about you come up with the goods?
Ball
Regards,
Ben
"Michael" <quadha...@HAMhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3c578c85$0$5120$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Yes, the older fan is noticeably noisy in periods of silence (mostly
between
> tracks and poignant moments in movies), but I haven't encountered any of
the
> other problems you mention with mine. One of these days I'll take mine
over
> to Woolloongabba to get a new fan installed but it's not really too bad.
> Looking forward to what you think of it, and the other amps.
>
> "Stuart Clarke" <s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in message
> news:Pine.OSF.4.30.020130...@student.uq.edu.au...
> > First, the fan (fans?). I found it to be quite loud indeed. Has anyone
> > else had this problem? I guess I'd label the sound as tolerable under
> > normal listening conditions, but the noise when the fan (seemed to have)
> > dropped to a very low speed was quite intolerable. Not only that, but
the
> > fan continued at this low speed for more than 20 mins after I switched
> > the amp off (put it in standby mode). I unplugged it from the wall at
> > that point :-) The hum from my ME 75's power transformer is much more
> > pleasant to listen to :)
>
>
Trevor Wilson
> The more stuff you put into an amp the more likely the electrical
> interference, so doesn't the fan itself and associated circuitry introduce
> noise into the amp?
>
**Not necessarily. Both the ME550-II and the ME850 use brushless motors.
Such motors radiate no interference signals. Further, the fans in both amps
have their own, separate power transformer, power supply and completely
separate circuitry. The S/N figures in both amps is around 100dB or more.
IOW: No noise.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
> >**Urk. These sorts of issues need to be addressed on a system-by-system
> >basis. They are not confined to ME products, BTW. A dedicated line, run
by
> >your electrican, from the mains board, should elminiate the problem.
>
> *** I may well decide to do just that. I took a look at the power point's
> wiring tonight, and found something interesting... The power point has
> two plugs, and is fed by a pipe running down the wall, into the top of
> which runs a cable. The cable, from what I can tell, runs along a ridge
> near the ceiling, to our household fuse panel at the other end of the
room.
> Now, the strange thing is that the cable has only two separately insulated
> parts. I immediately thought that these could be for the two separate
> wall plugs, but they're not very big. Around 0.5cm diameter each (if
that).
>
> Could it be that there's no ground wire leading to those power points?
**Extremely unlikely, though Queensland has the worst record for
electrocution and poor electrical wiring, in all of Australia.
> Surely that would be both dangerous and illegal.
**Yep.
>
>
> >**They can if there is an earth problem somewhere. Disconnect every item
> >from your system, then reconnect each one, in turn, until the fault
> >reappears (assuming it dissappears, in the first place.
>
>
> *** Well, the fault dissapears immediately if I turn the ME 550-II off.
> It reappears, however, as soon as its turned on. I can't figure out how
> to turn it on without also turning on my ME 14, however, so it's either
> the power amp, the preamp, or the wall socket (I replaced the extension
> lead and power boards tonight). Nothing else is plugged into the wall.
>
> I doubt the signal is originating in the preamp, however, as its volume
> does not shift when I adjust the preamp's gain knob.
>
> Any suggestions?
**Yes. Disconnnect EVERYTHING from the preamp, except the power amp. Then
plug each component in, one by one. You might also check the ME550-II
handbook, as it offers some excellent advice re. troubleshooting.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"Sean" <lost...@REMOVETHISBIToptushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c57f511$0$7121$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:6LJ58.22497$Ni2.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> Trevor or Rick, I'm just curious to know if the fan being debated has some
> form of safety cutout or thermal protection device (in case it siezes or
> whatever) ?
**Of course. All ME power amps will shut down, completely, if the heatsink
temperature exceeds 90 degrees Celcius. Given that the maximum, safe
heatsink temperature is around 150 degrees Celicus, this is an enormous
safety margin.
>
>
> and.......does the 550 upgrade option also include an upgraded fan?
**No. The ME550 already uses a superior fan and fan control system to the
ME550-II. There has been one running mod to the ME550, which inlcudes an
improved sensor (the old one failed during nearby lightning strikes). That
sensor would normally be fitted during any ME500 upgrades.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"Ball" <ba...@technologist.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:wZS58.24180$Ni2.1...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Is the fan a free upgrade?
>
**If any ME550-II owner is unhappy with the noise of their fan, a new fan
will be fitted free of charge, under the normal warranty arrangements.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"Preamp" <pre...@antispam.dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:3c57c7bf...@news.dingoblue.net.au...
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 09:11:09 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Preamp" <pre...@antispam.dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
> >news:3c57b5c6...@news.dingoblue.net.au...
> >> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 17:26:39 +1000, Stuart Clarke
> >> <s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
> >>
> >> >> Uh-oh... I tried to tell Trveor this a while ago, and I got a
> >> >> diatribe on temperature control and how it is essential. <Sigh>
> >> >
> >> >temperature control?
> >>
> >> Unwarranted complicated design never wins my favour.
> >
optimum
> >performance. A forced air temperature maintenance system, provides better
> >temperature regulation and better performance.
>
> No evidence of that. In fact, from noise levels alone, it detracts
> from performance.
**Not in the case of (a corretly functioning) ME amplifier. Further, the S/N
figures (electrically) are several orders of magnitude lower than those
exhibited by your preferred amplification.
>
>
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> > Do you not believe that the behaviour of components
> >> >will change at different temperatures?
> >> >
> >>
> >> I believe in designs that do not suffer from temperature changes
> >> (unless they are extreme of course). Many manufacturers can build
> >> amps that don't need temperature control circuitry like this. IMO
> >> that makes their design superior..
> >
> >**You forget, that ME once built amplifiers which used no forced air
> >cooling. The switch to forced air cooling allowed an increase in
> >performance.
>
> To improve an otherwise deficient design. Forced air temperature
> control may have been one solution, but not the only one I'll bet.
**Sure. Water cooling has been tried by several ME customers. Although they
preferred it, most ME customers are happier with air cooling. Don't forget:
Forced air cooling is upwards of 10 times more effiicient than convection
cooling.
>
> >It is probable that many other products would enjoy a similar
> >sonic improvement, if they also employed similar systems.
>
> Pure speculation.
**Nope. Logical extension. ALL amplifiers perform better, when not being
forced to cope with wide extremes of temperature variations. Not only do
they perform better, but they're lnoger lasting and more reliable.
>
> >I note, also, that
> >you have no experience with either the before and after ME amplifiers.
Your
> >opinion is therefore invalid. Your opinion is mere speculation.
>
> I have experience with many amps that don't need it. You are the one
> speculating that they would benefit from it.
**I, too, have experience with many amps (including MEs) which do not
require it. ME power amps perform better with constant temperature operation
(the reason for the forced air system) than they do without it.
Here's a list of advantages, I wrote up for another poster. Please feel free
to discuss any issues, which you don't understand.
--
**ME employ fans, for very important technical reasons.
*The temperature of the output stage remains constant, regardless of:
Ambient temperature.
Load
Power level
Orientation
*Forced air cooling cools ALL components in the amplifier. Particularly the
filter caps. In convection cooled amps, no attention is paid to keeping
these sensitive and expensive components cool.
*Reliability is enhanced, thanks to constant operating temperature, due to
the lack of thermal stress on output devices.
*A compact package is possible, for the output stages, thus keeping wiring
to a minimum. The ME1500 output stage can dissipate more than 1kW in a
package occupying around 1 Litre. Try THAT with convection cooling.
*It keeps overall size and mass down.
--
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Stuart Clarke
My abode is a temporary one, and I would therefore like to opt for a
portable solution to my power spike/noise problem. I would like
to try a mains filter. Can you suggest any? Dickies seems not to be
stocking them any more, and the ones from Jaycar don't have very
impressive sounding specs.
I notice that you've previously recommended that people buy industrial
grade filters.
My budget is as much as it takes, but I'd rather not spend more than a
few hundred dollars if I can help it.
Thanks for all your advice,
Stuart
Gordon
1 With regard to the amp problems , This takes me back almost 20 yrs to when
I first started working in Hi-fi .Manufacturers seeking to obtain the
shortest possible signal path left out what they considered to be
superfluous circuitry , result variable interference rejection depending on
proximity to transmitters etc , switch on thumps of gigantic proportions and
ultimately products of limited applicability due to their fragile nature .
These problems seem to have dissappeared even in specialist product , in
most cases, these days .
2 I don't think it is acceptable to have retailers pushing their products in
the newsgroup in the way that Mr Wilson constantly does. I used to be a die
hard Linn fan ( and we all know just how fanatical they were) and yet I knew
that the Linn stuff was not the solution to everyones problems. Trevor
probably genuinely belives that the ME stuff is excellent , and it may well
be , but his approach IMO is both inappropriate for the newsgroup and
probably alienates as many people as it entices .
3 I really don't think it's acceptable to have retailers attacking peoples
oppinions in the way that Rick does . You guys are supposed to be the
proffesionals and IMO you should be maintaining a more business like
approach to your replies . This thread and the previous mud slinging episode
with Vaf are a disgrace.
Gordon
Stuart Clarke
Stuart
Trevor Wilson
"Gordon" <gor...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:DF368.83924$HW3.1...@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> A few casual obsevations about this discussion:
> 1 With regard to the amp problems , This takes me back almost 20 yrs to
when
> I first started working in Hi-fi .Manufacturers seeking to obtain the
> shortest possible signal path left out what they considered to be
> superfluous circuitry , result variable interference rejection depending
on
> proximity to transmitters etc , switch on thumps of gigantic proportions
and
> ultimately products of limited applicability due to their fragile nature .
> These problems seem to have dissappeared even in specialist product , in
> most cases, these days .
**Yes. It would seem that there is a problem somewhere. It may be a fault
with the amplfier. It may be a fault in Stuart's wiring. Geography prevents
me from doing much to assist in the problem solving, beyond asking questions
and making suggestions.
> 2 I don't think it is acceptable to have retailers pushing their products
in
> the newsgroup in the way that Mr Wilson constantly does.
**I object strongly to this comment. Re-read EVERY comment I have made in
this thread. At every point, I have answered a question or (in one case)
responded to a stupid comment. I have answered those questions honestly and
forthrightly. I have acknowledged past flaws in the design. Having said
that, I do not apologise for promoting ME products. They are excellent. For
the record, the amplifier, which is at the heart of this discussion, is
being provided by another dealer. I stand to make no finanical gain from any
promotion.
I used to be a die
> hard Linn fan ( and we all know just how fanatical they were) and yet I
knew
> that the Linn stuff was not the solution to everyones problems. Trevor
> probably genuinely belives that the ME stuff is excellent , and it may
well
> be , but his approach IMO is both inappropriate for the newsgroup and
> probably alienates as many people as it entices .
**I KNOW I alienate some people. Honesty is never going to win everyone's
heart. Many people like to be lied to. I don't lie.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Stuart Clarke
finest available, is he then foreboden from making recommendations on this
newsgroup? If he does indeed believe that ME are the best (and I believe
that he does), any other recommendations made by him, within ME's price
bracket, would be false in nature.
So what, exactly, is he allowed to do on here?
Stuart
Rick Stadelmaier
Gordon wrote:
> A few casual obsevations about this discussion:
> 1 With regard to the amp problems , This takes me back almost 20 yrs to when
> I first started working in Hi-fi .Manufacturers seeking to obtain the
> shortest possible signal path left out what they considered to be
> superfluous circuitry , result variable interference rejection depending on
> proximity to transmitters etc , switch on thumps of gigantic proportions and
> ultimately products of limited applicability due to their fragile nature .
> These problems seem to have dissappeared even in specialist product , in
> most cases, these days .
> 2 I don't think it is acceptable to have retailers pushing their products in
> the newsgroup in the way that Mr Wilson constantly does. I used to be a die
> hard Linn fan ( and we all know just how fanatical they were) and yet I knew
> that the Linn stuff was not the solution to everyones problems. Trevor
> probably genuinely belives that the ME stuff is excellent , and it may well
> be , but his approach IMO is both inappropriate for the newsgroup and
> probably alienates as many people as it entices .
>
> 3 I really don't think it's acceptable to have retailers attacking peoples
> oppinions in the way that Rick does .
I am sorry if you feel I'm attacking preamp, I am merely trying to find
out why he feels the need to comment negatively on a great product when
he has admitted he has never listened to one. Do you not find this odd?
As I said to him, why potentially damage ME because he has a problem
with Trevors sales pitch?
> You guys are supposed to be the
> proffesionals and IMO you should be maintaining a more business like
> approach to your replies .
Perhaps your right, however preamp has shown a continual negative stance
towards ME. Whether or not I sold ME, I would still be asking the same
questions.
> This thread and the previous mud slinging episode
> with Vaf are a disgrace.
Perhaps, although mostly the discussions here a pretty tame and civil
compared to some of the other groups. And sometimes they even achieve
something.
We are only human.....
Sean
>
> "Sean" <lost...@REMOVETHISBIToptushome.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3c57f511$0$7121$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> **No. The ME550 already uses a superior fan and fan control system to the
> ME550-II. There has been one running mod to the ME550, which inlcudes an
> improved sensor (the old one failed during nearby lightning strikes). That
> sensor would normally be fitted during any ME500 upgrades.
Sorry.....I didnt quiet word that correctly, I should have said "does the
*ME 550-II* upgrade option, also include an upgraded fan?"
rgds Sean
Preamp
<s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>Hi Trevor,
>
>My abode is a temporary one, and I would therefore like to opt for a
>portable solution to my power spike/noise problem. I would like
>to try a mains filter. Can you suggest any? Dickies seems not to be
>stocking them any more, and the ones from Jaycar don't have very
>impressive sounding specs.
>
>I notice that you've previously recommended that people buy industrial
>grade filters.
>
>My budget is as much as it takes, but I'd rather not spend more than a
>few hundred dollars if I can help it.
>
>Thanks for all your advice,
>
Just be aware of the difference between a surge protector and a real
filter. Make sure it is a filter.
Preamp
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> >performance. A forced air temperature maintenance system, provides better
>> >temperature regulation and better performance.
>>
>> No evidence of that. In fact, from noise levels alone, it detracts
>> from performance.
>
>**Not in the case of (a corretly functioning) ME amplifier. Further, the S/N
>figures (electrically) are several orders of magnitude lower than those
>exhibited by your preferred amplification.
S/N figures do not account for acoustic noise, and it was obvious that
that was what I was referring to.
>>
>> To improve an otherwise deficient design. Forced air temperature
>> control may have been one solution, but not the only one I'll bet.
>
>**Sure. Water cooling has been tried by several ME customers. Although they
>preferred it, most ME customers are happier with air cooling. Don't forget:
>Forced air cooling is upwards of 10 times more effiicient than convection
>cooling.
>
So what. An amp that requires none of the above to achieve
performanceis still superior.
>>
>> >It is probable that many other products would enjoy a similar
>> >sonic improvement, if they also employed similar systems.
>>
>> Pure speculation.
>
>**Nope. Logical extension.
IOW: Speculation.
>ALL amplifiers perform better, when not being
>forced to cope with wide extremes of temperature variations.
Not necessarily.
> Not only do
>they perform better, but they're lnoger lasting and more reliable.
Prove it.
>
>>
>> >I note, also, that
>> >you have no experience with either the before and after ME amplifiers.
>Your
>> >opinion is therefore invalid. Your opinion is mere speculation.
>>
>> I have experience with many amps that don't need it. You are the one
>> speculating that they would benefit from it.
>
>**I, too, have experience with many amps (including MEs) which do not
>require it. ME power amps perform better with constant temperature operation
>(the reason for the forced air system) than they do without it.
Because the design is incapable of coping with temp. variations. As I
said, designs that can are superior.
>
>Here's a list of advantages, I wrote up for another poster. Please feel free
>to discuss any issues, which you don't understand.
>
>--
>**ME employ fans, for very important technical reasons.
>*The temperature of the output stage remains constant, regardless of:
> Ambient temperature.
> Load
> Power level
> Orientation
Only an issue if the amp is overly sensitive to it.
>*Forced air cooling cools ALL components in the amplifier. Particularly the
>filter caps. In convection cooled amps, no attention is paid to keeping
>these sensitive and expensive components cool.
Only an issue if the amp is overly sensitive to it.
>*Reliability is enhanced, thanks to constant operating temperature, due to
>the lack of thermal stress on output devices.
You still gotta turn it off and on and that temp stressing effect
totally swamps the ones due to operating.
>*A compact package is possible, for the output stages, thus keeping wiring
>to a minimum.
Wow! :-)
>The ME1500 output stage can dissipate more than 1kW in a
>package occupying around 1 Litre. Try THAT with convection cooling.
>*It keeps overall size and mass down.
Big deal.
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >But is it possible to make such a beast? I know I haven't found one.
>>
>> Try looking harder.
>
>Nice try.
I'll ignore that and accept your admission that you could have.
>
>> >But you said many manufactures can build amps like this without the need
>> >for temperature control. Firstly, how do you know they are 'like this'
>>
>> Quite right, they may indeed be better. And, judging by how well they
>> are known compared to ME, they probably are better.
>
>So now it is how well known a product is, as to it's superiority.
>Wouldn't that make Sony the best?
I thought we were talking about high-end?
>
>> >(ME) if you haven't heard one? And you then went on to say that that
>> >makes there design superior. Strange words when you don't know how an ME
>> >actually performs.
>>
>> Simpler design that achieves equal or better outcome IS superior.
>
>But you don't know if it equals anything?!
Neither do you, but I'm afraid I believe the majority rather than
thean minority of ME lovers found here.
>
>> >If it were only so. From the discussions I have seen in the past, you
>> >have never given ME the benefit of the doubt.
>>
>> So when I do, you still complain. There's no pleasing you is there.
>> Typical zealot.
>
>Your losing credibility fast.
Ha.
>
>> >So why are you making comments on a product of which you have zero
>> >experience with?
>>
>> Because it relies on complicated forced cooling. Try to keep up
>> willya? :-)
>
>Nutha' nice try.
No answer huh?
>
>> >You have said many times that Trevor lacks credibility because he blows
>> >ME's trumpet so hard when he sells them. Why don't you practice what you
>> >preach?
>>
>> Who's trumpet am I blowing? I am not the one who pushes one brand so
>> hard it is embarrassing.
>
>No, but your doing your best to give it an unfair chance, simply because
>you don't like Trevor blowing the trumpet.
Gobbledegook
>
>If you have a beef with the trumpet blowing, have a go at Trevor, why
>tarnish a great OZ product? Particularly when you have never actually
>heard the product, so don't know how good or bad it is.
>
>> Why don't we post a simple question on a international hifi newsgroup?
>> "What is the world's best hifi amp?"
>> ...and see how many time people mention ME vs other brands.
>> If it is truly the best, I will admit I was wrong, until then i find
>> this zealous love of ME, well, amusing to say the least.
>
>Ludicrous question. A better question is why don't you have a listen for
>yourself instead of listening to other peoples opinions.
What are you afraid of... the truth?
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >Of course it is up to you, Trevor has explained the reasons why it IS
>> >superior,
>>
>> ...he has not.
>
>So whats this then?
It is his explanation of why the inferior design of ME _needs_ this
complicated messy temperature control scheme.
>
>> > the onus is now on you as you are doubting his claims, with no
>> >evidence.
>>
>> No, it's on the person making the claims.
>Well, I just ran his evidence by you again, are you able to provide any
>evidence to the contrary of any of his claims?
Let me repeat, even if ME is as good as the best (which seems unlikely
given it never gets mentioned in international forums) then it's need
for messy temp. solutions with noisy fans makes it inferior.
Trevor Wilson
> Hi Trevor,
>
> My abode is a temporary one, and I would therefore like to opt for a
> portable solution to my power spike/noise problem. I would like
> to try a mains filter. Can you suggest any? Dickies seems not to be
> stocking them any more, and the ones from Jaycar don't have very
> impressive sounding specs.
>
> I notice that you've previously recommended that people buy industrial
> grade filters.
**Not really. I don't see a great deal of value in any filters. The faults
should be prevented at the source. See if Tony has one to loan you. Have you
mentioned the problems you are experiencing to him?
>
> My budget is as much as it takes, but I'd rather not spend more than a
> few hundred dollars if I can help it.
**An in-line filter should never cost more than $100.00.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
**No. All the latest ME550-IIs employ a new, quiet fan. For particularly
noise sensitive clients, I would suggest that buying an old ME550 and
upgrading it to ME550-II status, when the mod becomes available (probably
4th quarter, 2002).
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Preamp
wrote:
>A few casual obsevations about this discussion:
>1 With regard to the amp problems , This takes me back almost 20 yrs to when
>I first started working in Hi-fi .Manufacturers seeking to obtain the
>shortest possible signal path left out what they considered to be
>superfluous circuitry , result variable interference rejection depending on
>proximity to transmitters etc , switch on thumps of gigantic proportions and
>ultimately products of limited applicability due to their fragile nature .
>These problems seem to have dissappeared even in specialist product , in
>most cases, these days .
Good design will virtually eliminate these problems yes. Even in
simple designs (like my own valve amps) you can avoid these types of
problems.
>2 I don't think it is acceptable to have retailers pushing their products in
>the newsgroup in the way that Mr Wilson constantly does.
Yes, I have bemoaned this often.
>I used to be a die
>hard Linn fan ( and we all know just how fanatical they were) and yet I knew
>that the Linn stuff was not the solution to everyones problems. Trevor
>probably genuinely belives that the ME stuff is excellent , and it may well
>be , but his approach IMO is both inappropriate for the newsgroup and
>probably alienates as many people as it entices .
I did wonder if mister ME considers Trevor is doing him a favour or
not.
>3 I really don't think it's acceptable to have retailers attacking peoples
>oppinions in the way that Rick does . You guys are supposed to be the
>proffesionals and IMO you should be maintaining a more business like
>approach to your replies . This thread and the previous mud slinging episode
>with Vaf are a disgrace.
>Gordon
>
>
IMO retailers should go out of their way to avoid appearing to push
products that they sell. I have worked as a salesman (although not in
hifi) and I've found better results come from appearing fair and
unbiased.
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >> >Do they have the exact same combination of performance as an ME, for
>> >> >similar price? Have you done side by side listening tests to confirm
>> >> >this? Or even done any measurements?
>> >>
>> >> Have you?
>> >
>> >Yep.
>> >
>> >Rick.
>>
>> Please publish your results. What did you compare it with? What was
>> your testing methodology?
>
>
>I have no results, sorry, very informal testing.
ROFLMFAO! credibility down in flames.....
>I have compared ME with the likes of Krell, Audio Research, Rotel,
>Classe, NAD, Redgum, etc. (There have been others, though not worth
>mentioning).
Gee...redgum claim there's is the best...wonder who I should
believe??????
>In many cases I reliably know when the ME is being used and in some
>cases the alternate amplifier was indistinguishable.
>The methodology ranged from side by side blind testing to periods of
>days where I don't know which amplifier is being used in my day to day
>system.
>
>Many may say the above testing is flawed, however I have made the
>effort, sometimes with surprising results.
Surprising results are odten the result of flawed methodology...
>
>How about you come up with the goods?
>
Why? You're the ones trying to convince me that ME is the best. You
keep forgetting that. You are in the minority as well.
Preamp
<s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote:
>So if Trevor sells ME, and if Trevor believes that ME products are the
>finest available, is he then foreboden from making recommendations on this
>newsgroup?
No, none forbids him, but he should be careful of the consequences.
In the end, it's a free world, and it cuts both ways.
Preamp
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> 2 I don't think it is acceptable to have retailers pushing their products
>in
>> the newsgroup in the way that Mr Wilson constantly does.
>
>**I object strongly to this comment. Re-read EVERY comment I have made in
>this thread. At every point, I have answered a question or (in one case)
>responded to a stupid comment. I have answered those questions honestly and
>forthrightly. I have acknowledged past flaws in the design. Having said
>that, I do not apologise for promoting ME products.
That's what get's up peoples noses.
>They are excellent. For
>the record, the amplifier, which is at the heart of this discussion, is
>being provided by another dealer. I stand to make no finanical gain from any
>promotion.
Rubish, you want everyone to buy ME amps, and hope to improve your
business results when they do.
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>>
>> 3 I really don't think it's acceptable to have retailers attacking peoples
>> oppinions in the way that Rick does .
>
>I am sorry if you feel I'm attacking preamp, I am merely trying to find
>out why he feels the need to comment negatively on a great product when
>he has admitted he has never listened to one. Do you not find this odd?
>As I said to him, why potentially damage ME because he has a problem
>with Trevors sales pitch?
Try reading my posts, and make a real effort to understand them for a
change, instead of taking every chance to misunderstand what I say.
>
>> You guys are supposed to be the
>> proffesionals and IMO you should be maintaining a more business like
>> approach to your replies .
>
>Perhaps your right, however preamp has shown a continual negative stance
>towards ME.
Because of the continual bias shown by certain people on the
newsgroup. Fairs, fair.... at least I have no financial reason to do
it.
>Whether or not I sold ME, I would still be asking the same
>questions.
Me too.
George Lakey
given it never gets mentioned in international forums) then it's need
for messy temp. solutions with noisy fans makes it inferior.
I have seen ME mentioned many times over the years in magazines, in
conversation in hi fi stores overseas and in reviews overseas and all have
been favourable reports. I think the ME site has a review or two from
overseas as well.
To imply "then it's need for messy temp. solutions with noisy fans makes it
inferior" shows:
(i) a lack of the product knowledge ie are all ME fans noisy (no they are
not)
(ii) a lack of understanding of engineering practices.
I work with equipment worth millions of dollars that use fan cooling to
improve reliability and performance (in fact one is an amplifier worth a
figure containing 6 0's) amongst other items. To not use fan cooling would
render this equipment a liability. It would be far too large to use in its
allotted area, so how does fan cooling make a product inferior?
George.
Preamp
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Stuart Clarke" <s33...@student.uq.edu.au> wrote in message
>news:Pine.OSF.4.30.02013...@student.uq.edu.au...
>> Hi Trevor,
>>
>> My abode is a temporary one, and I would therefore like to opt for a
>> portable solution to my power spike/noise problem. I would like
>> to try a mains filter. Can you suggest any? Dickies seems not to be
>> stocking them any more, and the ones from Jaycar don't have very
>> impressive sounding specs.
>>
>> I notice that you've previously recommended that people buy industrial
>> grade filters.
>
>**Not really. I don't see a great deal of value in any filters. The faults
>should be prevented at the source.
Yep, usually with a filter.
Preamp
<gla...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>Let me repeat, even if ME is as good as the best (which seems unlikely
>given it never gets mentioned in international forums) then it's need
>for messy temp. solutions with noisy fans makes it inferior.
>
>I have seen ME mentioned many times over the years in magazines, in
>conversation in hi fi stores overseas and in reviews overseas and all have
>been favourable reports. I think the ME site has a review or two from
>overseas as well.
Yes, but compared to many other brands, it is virtually unknown.
>
>To imply "then it's need for messy temp. solutions with noisy fans makes it
>inferior" shows:
>
>(i) a lack of the product knowledge ie are all ME fans noisy (no they are
>not)
never said that
>
>(ii) a lack of understanding of engineering practices.
boy are you wrong....
>
>I work with equipment worth millions of dollars that use fan cooling to
>improve reliability and performance (in fact one is an amplifier worth a
>figure containing 6 0's) amongst other items. To not use fan cooling would
>render this equipment a liability. It would be far too large to use in its
>allotted area, so how does fan cooling make a product inferior?
To one that achieves the same result without it, it is most definitely
inferior.
David Pile
I am a Reg Mills customer and I have auditioned, in my home, the same
amplifier that you have now. There were no, thumps or buzz or interference
that I could hear. Even the fridge didn't send a thump through the speakers
(which it does with the Onkyo HT receiver). The fan noise, while present,
was not audible from the listening position, but perhaps the noise has
worsened since I listened to the amp.
In anycase, I would simply ask these questions to Tony or Andrew at Reg
Mills Stereo. I have found them to be most helpful and always willing to do
anything they can to get better sound into my living room. I recall them
replacing a transformer in there demo ME1400 because one customer mentioned
that it buzzed a bit!
Also, I don't want to sound like a saleman myself, but you can be confident
that if you buy a product from Reg Mills Stereo, and aren't 100% happy, you
wont be left hi and dry - they will try to help you. For example, my ME1400
was a trade-in at Reg Mills that I snapped up. Part of the circuitry in it
died after I had the amp for a while. I took the amp into tony, he got onto
Peter Stein, who happened to be comming up to brisbane anyway, and asked him
to bring the part. So the next day, my amp had its part replaced, and Peter
gave it a checking out personally. This was done for free, despite the
warranty on this amp being expired by 4 years!!!
David
George Lakey
>not)
never said that
solutions with noisy fans makes it inferior.
Preamp,
we can wax lyrical for days on end about the debate of
fans / no fans, however, after 26+ years in the business, you must concede
that ME are doing something right. As mentioned in my previous post, I have
/ do work with equipment that rely solely on fan cooling with smaller heat
sinks. It is all mil spec, and just for the record, mil spec favours fan
cooling of heat generating electronics.
The above aside, a healthy debate is a good debate.
Regards,
George.
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >Nice try.
>
> I'll ignore that and accept your admission that you could have.
It appears it's not the only thing you ignore.
> >But you don't know if it equals anything?!
>
> Neither do you, but I'm afraid I believe the majority rather than
> thean minority of ME lovers found here.
Why would you believe anyone? Wouldn't you trust you own ears?
> >Ludicrous question. A better question is why don't you have a listen for
> >yourself instead of listening to other peoples opinions.
>
> What are you afraid of... the truth?
Say what?
Thats an odd statement considering you comment on a product you haven't
heard. I will listen to any amplifier thrown in front of me and give it
a fair chance. Until then I will not comment on it. So how do you figure
I'm afraid of the truth?
Preamp
<gla...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>(i) a lack of the product knowledge ie are all ME fans noisy (no they are
>>not)
>
>never said that
>
>solutions with noisy fans makes it inferior.
>
>Preamp,
>
> we can wax lyrical for days on end about the debate of
>fans / no fans,
Only if you choose to.
>however, after 26+ years in the business, you must concede
>that ME are doing something right.
Sure, maybe so. But I refute the 'world's best' claim entirely. If
they were, they'd be better known.
>As mentioned in my previous post, I have
>/ do work with equipment that rely solely on fan cooling with smaller heat
>sinks.
As a metter of fact, so have I.
>It is all mil spec, and just for the record, mil spec favours fan
>cooling of heat generating electronics.
yeah, but you still don't get my point. If it can meet that
spec/performance level, without a fan, it will be be a superior
design, just because of that. Fans are a mechanical device that fail
more often that electronics, and so, provided the equipment doesn't
need a fan, it has one less failure mode (actually more given the temp
control circuitry). Sure, and ME amp may shutdown on a temperature
overload, but that's still a failure.
>
>The above aside, a healthy debate is a good debate.
>
I wouldn't have it any other way :-)
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >> Please publish your results. What did you compare it with? What was
> >> your testing methodology?
> >
> >
> >I have no results, sorry, very informal testing.
>
> ROFLMFAO! credibility down in flames.....
IYO. Tell me, what tests have you done with ME?
> >I have compared ME with the likes of Krell, Audio Research, Rotel,
> >Classe, NAD, Redgum, etc. (There have been others, though not worth
> >mentioning).
>
> Gee...redgum claim there's is the best...wonder who I should
> believe??????
You should believe no one, you listen for your self.
> >In many cases I reliably know when the ME is being used and in some
> >cases the alternate amplifier was indistinguishable.
> >The methodology ranged from side by side blind testing to periods of
> >days where I don't know which amplifier is being used in my day to day
> >system.
> >
> >Many may say the above testing is flawed, however I have made the
> >effort, sometimes with surprising results.
>
> Surprising results are odten the result of flawed methodology...
Possibly, I never said my methodology was perfect, but it satisfied
myself.
BTW, the surprises are not what your assuming.
What is your test methodology when comparing ME?
> >How about you come up with the goods?
>
> Why? You're the ones trying to convince me that ME is the best. You
> keep forgetting that. You are in the minority as well.
I'm not trying to convince you of anything, I am just puzzled at how you
can make a judgment on a audio product without having listened to it?
Preamp, if you had done extensive listening tests with ME and various
other amplifiers of choice and came to the conclusion that they are
crap, I wouldn't question it as it would be your prerogative to comment
on. However, this is not the case, you are making an assessment of a
product of which you have zero experience with, why?
I really couldn't care less what you say about it after you have given
it a fair chance.
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> Good design will virtually eliminate these problems yes. Even in
> simple designs (like my own valve amps) you can avoid these types of
> problems.
So your valve amps are good design, yes, IYO? The internationals haven't
said so, how can it possibly be good?
Perhaps I should have a listen to one before I pass judgment.... Now
thats a new idea!
> IMO retailers should go out of their way to avoid appearing to push
> products that they sell.
Agreed.
> I have worked as a salesman (although not in
> hifi) and I've found better results come from appearing fair and
> unbiased.
If this is your belief, how come you don't follow it?
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> >I am sorry if you feel I'm attacking preamp, I am merely trying to find
> >out why he feels the need to comment negatively on a great product when
> >he has admitted he has never listened to one. Do you not find this odd?
> >As I said to him, why potentially damage ME because he has a problem
> >with Trevors sales pitch?
>
> Try reading my posts, and make a real effort to understand them for a
> change, instead of taking every chance to misunderstand what I say.
I do understand them to a point, the bit I can't understand is, why make
judgment on a product which you haven't heard?
> >Perhaps your right, however preamp has shown a continual negative stance
> >towards ME.
>
> Because of the continual bias shown by certain people on the
> newsgroup. Fairs, fair.... at least I have no financial reason to do
> it.
Ok, tear him apart, not the product.
George Lakey
>that ME are doing something right.
Sure, maybe so. But I refute the 'world's best' claim entirely. If
they were, they'd be better known.
Not maybe, you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of
the people all of the time. (not for 26 years anyway).
I have found ME to be an outstandingly reliable piece of gear (my 1500 was
left out on a pallet in a removalists yard for a few weeks because they
thought it was a welder of some desciption, however, no ill affects
suffered).
As for the "better known" statement, rattle off what Matti Ottala, Mark
Levinson, Dave Baldwin etc....... .......are doing (the list goes on).
These guys also make a "worlds best" claim yet I am a bit hard to pressed to
find a definitive statement on their current status / products etc.
i like a good discussion,
Regards,
George.
Trevor Wilson
"Preamp" <pre...@antispam.dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:3c5900dc...@news.dingoblue.net.au...
> On Wed, 30 Jan 2002 20:59:20 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >> >performance. A forced air temperature maintenance system, provides
better
> >> >temperature regulation and better performance.
> >>
> >> No evidence of that. In fact, from noise levels alone, it detracts
> >> from performance.
> >
> >**Not in the case of (a corretly functioning) ME amplifier. Further, the
S/N
> >figures (electrically) are several orders of magnitude lower than those
> >exhibited by your preferred amplification.
>
> S/N figures do not account for acoustic noise, and it was obvious that
> that was what I was referring to.
**Noise is noise. It matters little if it emanates from the speakers, or
not.
>
> >>
> >> To improve an otherwise deficient design. Forced air temperature
> >> control may have been one solution, but not the only one I'll bet.
> >
> >**Sure. Water cooling has been tried by several ME customers. Although
they
> >preferred it, most ME customers are happier with air cooling. Don't
forget:
> >Forced air cooling is upwards of 10 times more effiicient than convection
> >cooling.
> >
>
> So what. An amp that requires none of the above to achieve
> performanceis still superior.
**Pure nonsense. ME could easily build amps which use convection cooling,
which would be (probably) inaudibly different to the forced air cooled ones.
Pretty much in the same way that VW and Porsche moved (finally) to
completely water cooled engines, due to efficiency gains, so ME has chosen
to go with fan cooling. Even some tube amps (Audio Research D250) use fans
to keep them cool. The computer you are using, probably uses several. ALL
amplifiers will benefit (audibly, or not) from constant high temperature
operation. How do your tube amps sound,when they're cold? Are they better
when they've warmed up? With transistor amps, the warm junctions mean that
the devices have superior and more stable hFE figures, better fT figures and
consequently lower distortion figures. ALl this may be completely inaudible.
For ME, it is not enough to build a good amp. ME wants to build the best
amps, they can. That means compact amplifier stages (impossible with
convection cooling), short wiring paths (impossible with convection
cooling), stable, constant temperature operation (impossible with convection
cooling) and nice cool filter capacitors.
Last year, I tested a convection cooled competitor. At idle, the heatsinks
reached 55 degrees C. At moderate power levels (30% max), the heatsinks
reached 72 degrees C. At 40% max power, the heatsinks just nudged 100
degrees C. All this was with 8 Ohm loads. Using 4 Ohm loads, the
temperatures would have risen higher. If the amplifier was placed in a
cabinet, the temperature would have risen higher. If the amplifier was used
on a warmer day (I tested at 22 degrees C), the temperature would have risen
higher. Performing ALL the above, would have shut the amplifier down. An ME
will cope with ALL the above situations and never rise above 65 degrees
Celcius. I reckon that is good design. Particularly good for the filter
caps.
>
>
>
>
> >>
> >> >It is probable that many other products would enjoy a similar
> >> >sonic improvement, if they also employed similar systems.
> >>
> >> Pure speculation.
> >
> >**Nope. Logical extension.
>
> IOW: Speculation.
**Nope. Look at my above explanation re. the lowered distortion. Further,
the ME1500 reaches optimum operating temperature, in about 15 minutes. The
competing amplifier, noted above, took nearly 4 hours!
>
> >ALL amplifiers perform better, when not being
> >forced to cope with wide extremes of temperature variations.
>
> Not necessarily.
**Yes, necessarily. Both tubes and semiconductors benefit from a slightly
elevated, constant operating temperature. Don't believe me? Go look up the
specs.
>
>
> > Not only do
> >they perform better, but they're lnoger lasting and more reliable.
>
> Prove it.
**I believe I have. ME have around 10 years experience in building
convection cooled amps and around 17 years experience building fan cooled
amps. Don't beleive me? Disconnect the fan on your microprocessor. See what
happens.
>
>
> >
> >>
> >> >I note, also, that
> >> >you have no experience with either the before and after ME amplifiers.
> >Your
> >> >opinion is therefore invalid. Your opinion is mere speculation.
> >>
> >> I have experience with many amps that don't need it. You are the one
> >> speculating that they would benefit from it.
> >
> >**I, too, have experience with many amps (including MEs) which do not
> >require it. ME power amps perform better with constant temperature
operation
> >(the reason for the forced air system) than they do without it.
>
> Because the design is incapable of coping with temp. variations. As I
> said, designs that can are superior.
**Untrue. The basic topology in ME's latest products, are almost identical
to the older, convection cooled ones. The old models coped with temperature
variations, very nicely. The new ones are just better, that's all.
>
>
> >
> >Here's a list of advantages, I wrote up for another poster. Please feel
free
> >to discuss any issues, which you don't understand.
> >
> >--
> >**ME employ fans, for very important technical reasons.
> >*The temperature of the output stage remains constant, regardless of:
> > Ambient temperature.
> > Load
> > Power level
> > Orientation
>
>
> Only an issue if the amp is overly sensitive to it.
**Since ME amplifiers sue no Global NFB, they tend to be more sensitive to
temperature changes, than regular amps.
>
>
> >*Forced air cooling cools ALL components in the amplifier. Particularly
the
> >filter caps. In convection cooled amps, no attention is paid to keeping
> >these sensitive and expensive components cool.
>
> Only an issue if the amp is overly sensitive to it.
**ALL electrolytic caps will enjoy a shorter life span, when operated at
elevated temperatures. Every single one.
>
> >*Reliability is enhanced, thanks to constant operating temperature, due
to
> >the lack of thermal stress on output devices.
>
> You still gotta turn it off and on and that temp stressing effect
> totally swamps the ones due to operating.
**Old wive's tale. Any amp which cannot tolerate thousands of on-cycles, is
faulty. In any case, you seem to have forgotten what happens to a
semiconductor chip, when it is required to pass large, instantaneous
currents. The chip is tiny and can heat up dramatically, in a few
milliseconds. Constant, high temperature operation, reduces this stress.
This effect is almost non-existent in tube amps, due to the large mass of
the plates and the relatively high output impedances.
>
>
> >*A compact package is possible, for the output stages, thus keeping
wiring
> >to a minimum.
>
>
> Wow! :-)
**Yep. Wow, indeed. You orta see the wiring in a big, power amp. There can
be many Metres of the stuff. Every added cm, adds series inductance and all
sorts of other problems.
>
> >The ME1500 output stage can dissipate more than 1kW in a
> >package occupying around 1 Litre. Try THAT with convection cooling.
> >*It keeps overall size and mass down.
>
>
> Big deal.
**Yep, it is a big deal. Keeping the output stage compact allows several
advantages:
*All semiconductors can be kept at the same temperature, thus reducing the
likelihood of 'current hogging'.
*The amplifier can be made smaller, lighter and more manageable (none of
those pesky sharp heatsinks to gouge human flesh).
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
> On Thu, 31 Jan 2002 05:02:31 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> >
> >> 2 I don't think it is acceptable to have retailers pushing their
products
> >in
> >> the newsgroup in the way that Mr Wilson constantly does.
> >
> >**I object strongly to this comment. Re-read EVERY comment I have made in
> >this thread. At every point, I have answered a question or (in one case)
> >responded to a stupid comment. I have answered those questions honestly
and
> >forthrightly. I have acknowledged past flaws in the design. Having said
> >that, I do not apologise for promoting ME products.
>
> That's what get's up peoples noses.
**Can't please everyone. May as well please myself.
>
>
> >They are excellent. For
> >the record, the amplifier, which is at the heart of this discussion, is
> >being provided by another dealer. I stand to make no finanical gain from
any
> >promotion.
>
> Rubish, you want everyone to buy ME amps, and hope to improve your
> business results when they do.
**Nope. I want everyone to LISTEN to an ME amp. I don't care (as much as you
think I do) if they buy or not. Which is why I offered you a loan. I knew
full well I would not gain a sale.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >Nice try.
>>
>> I'll ignore that and accept your admission that you could have.
>
>It appears it's not the only thing you ignore.
Really? How slow of you then?
>
>> >But you don't know if it equals anything?!
>>
>> Neither do you, but I'm afraid I believe the majority rather than
>> thean minority of ME lovers found here.
>
>Why would you believe anyone? Wouldn't you trust you own ears?
No answer, so you sidetrack... good technique, but no brownie points
sonny!
>
>> >Ludicrous question. A better question is why don't you have a listen for
>> >yourself instead of listening to other peoples opinions.
>>
>> What are you afraid of... the truth?
>
>Say what?
Are you deaf?
>Thats an odd statement considering you comment on a product you haven't
>heard. I will listen to any amplifier thrown in front of me and give it
>a fair chance. Until then I will not comment on it. So how do you figure
>I'm afraid of the truth?
Because you need to resort to purposely not understanding what I said
and need to keep coming back to this tired old line.
Preamp
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>> >**Not in the case of (a corretly functioning) ME amplifier. Further, the
>S/N
>> >figures (electrically) are several orders of magnitude lower than those
>> >exhibited by your preferred amplification.
>>
>> S/N figures do not account for acoustic noise, and it was obvious that
>> that was what I was referring to.
>
>**Noise is noise. It matters little if it emanates from the speakers, or
>not.
Rubbish... you yourself (in the text above) admitted it was only
electrical noise in those S/N figure.
>
>>
>> >>
>> >> To improve an otherwise deficient design. Forced air temperature
>> >> control may have been one solution, but not the only one I'll bet.
>> >
>> >**Sure. Water cooling has been tried by several ME customers. Although
>they
>> >preferred it, most ME customers are happier with air cooling. Don't
>forget:
>> >Forced air cooling is upwards of 10 times more effiicient than convection
>> >cooling.
>> >
>>
>> So what. An amp that requires none of the above to achieve
>> performanceis still superior.
>
>**Pure nonsense.
No it's not.
>ME could easily build amps which use convection cooling,
>which would be (probably) inaudibly different to the forced air cooled ones.
>Pretty much in the same way that VW and Porsche moved (finally) to
>completely water cooled engines, due to efficiency gains, so ME has chosen
>to go with fan cooling. Even some tube amps (Audio Research D250) use fans
>to keep them cool. The computer you are using, probably uses several. ALL
>amplifiers will benefit (audibly, or not) from constant high temperature
>operation. How do your tube amps sound,when they're cold? Are they better
>when they've warmed up? With transistor amps, the warm junctions mean that
>the devices have superior and more stable hFE figures, better fT figures and
>consequently lower distortion figures. ALl this may be completely inaudible.
>For ME, it is not enough to build a good amp. ME wants to build the best
>amps, they can. That means compact amplifier stages (impossible with
>convection cooling), short wiring paths (impossible with convection
>cooling), stable, constant temperature operation (impossible with convection
>cooling) and nice cool filter capacitors.
Fact remains that if others do it without fans, there design is
superior.
>
>Last year, I tested a convection cooled competitor. At idle, the heatsinks
>reached 55 degrees C. At moderate power levels (30% max), the heatsinks
>reached 72 degrees C. At 40% max power, the heatsinks just nudged 100
>degrees C. All this was with 8 Ohm loads. Using 4 Ohm loads, the
>temperatures would have risen higher. If the amplifier was placed in a
>cabinet, the temperature would have risen higher. If the amplifier was used
>on a warmer day (I tested at 22 degrees C), the temperature would have risen
>higher. Performing ALL the above, would have shut the amplifier down. An ME
>will cope with ALL the above situations and never rise above 65 degrees
>Celcius. I reckon that is good design. Particularly good for the filter
>caps.
At this point I am sure you know what I mean, and are purposely
tapdancing around it...
Preamp
<gla...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>>however, after 26+ years in the business, you must concede
>>that ME are doing something right.
>
>Sure, maybe so. But I refute the 'world's best' claim entirely. If
>they were, they'd be better known.
>
>Not maybe, you can fool some of the people some of the time but not all of
>the people all of the time. (not for 26 years anyway).
Whether you can make a living or not has little to so with whether or
not you're the best.
>
>I have found ME to be an outstandingly reliable piece of gear (my 1500 was
>left out on a pallet in a removalists yard for a few weeks because they
>thought it was a welder of some desciption, however, no ill affects
>suffered).
Fine, but again, nothing to do with whether it's the best.
>
>As for the "better known" statement, rattle off what Matti Ottala, Mark
>Levinson, Dave Baldwin etc....... .......are doing (the list goes on).
>These guys also make a "worlds best" claim
...as do many others
>yet I am a bit hard to pressed to
>find a definitive statement on their current status / products etc.
So what do you think of my challenge to ask an international high end
forum somewhere which is the "world's best"? Or we could just ask
"Are ME amps the world's best" I suspect many replies will be"What's
an ME amp?"
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >> Please publish your results. What did you compare it with? What was
>> >> your testing methodology?
>> >
>> >
>> >I have no results, sorry, very informal testing.
>>
>> ROFLMFAO! credibility down in flames.....
>
>IYO. Tell me, what tests have you done with ME?
I didn't claim I had... you did.
>
>> >I have compared ME with the likes of Krell, Audio Research, Rotel,
>> >Classe, NAD, Redgum, etc. (There have been others, though not worth
>> >mentioning).
>>
>> Gee...redgum claim there's is the best...wonder who I should
>> believe??????
>
>You should believe no one, you listen for your self.
That's a bit paranoid.
>
>> >In many cases I reliably know when the ME is being used and in some
>> >cases the alternate amplifier was indistinguishable.
>> >The methodology ranged from side by side blind testing to periods of
>> >days where I don't know which amplifier is being used in my day to day
>> >system.
>> >
>> >Many may say the above testing is flawed, however I have made the
>> >effort, sometimes with surprising results.
>>
>> Surprising results are odten the result of flawed methodology...
>
>Possibly, I never said my methodology was perfect, but it satisfied
>myself.
>BTW, the surprises are not what your assuming.
Yawn....
>
>What is your test methodology when comparing ME?
>
>> >How about you come up with the goods?
>>
>> Why? You're the ones trying to convince me that ME is the best. You
>> keep forgetting that. You are in the minority as well.
>
>I'm not trying to convince you of anything,
like hell!
>I am just puzzled at how you
>can make a judgment on a audio product without having listened to it?
>
>Preamp, if you had done extensive listening tests with ME and various
>other amplifiers of choice and came to the conclusion that they are
>crap,
I have never said they were crap.
> I wouldn't question it as it would be your prerogative to comment
>on. However, this is not the case, you are making an assessment of a
>product of which you have zero experience with, why?
So, if you had never owned, say, a Rolls Royce, you would not still
have the opinion that they were a well built luxury car? Of course you
would, because the majority of others, who have experience of them,
have reported on their excellence. You may judge the veracity of the
claim, by the number that agree, vs. those that don't. If ME was the
'world's best' then a majority of people would have that opinion.
They don't, and it isn't.
>
>I really couldn't care less what you say about it after you have given
>it a fair chance.
I really couldn't care less that I haven't heard it.
Preamp
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
>>
>> >They are excellent. For
>> >the record, the amplifier, which is at the heart of this discussion, is
>> >being provided by another dealer. I stand to make no finanical gain from
>any
>> >promotion.
>>
>> Rubish, you want everyone to buy ME amps, and hope to improve your
>> business results when they do.
>
>**Nope. I want everyone to LISTEN to an ME amp. I don't care (as much as you
>think I do) if they buy or not. Which is why I offered you a loan. I knew
>full well I would not gain a sale.
>
>
In this instance, but by generally promoting the product, you increase
your chances of a sale. It's obvious as dog's balls, and you are most
guilty of it.
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> >I am sorry if you feel I'm attacking preamp, I am merely trying to find
>> >out why he feels the need to comment negatively on a great product when
>> >he has admitted he has never listened to one. Do you not find this odd?
>> >As I said to him, why potentially damage ME because he has a problem
>> >with Trevors sales pitch?
>>
>> Try reading my posts, and make a real effort to understand them for a
>> change, instead of taking every chance to misunderstand what I say.
>
>I do understand them to a point, the bit I can't understand is, why make
>judgment on a product which you haven't heard?
Do you thin Ferrari's are fast... better not say yes, unless you've
driven one, because it'd be a judgement on a product you haven't
tried.
Shit I need a bigger hammer to thump this basic concept in, do i?
>
>> >Perhaps your right, however preamp has shown a continual negative stance
>> >towards ME.
>>
>> Because of the continual bias shown by certain people on the
>> newsgroup. Fairs, fair.... at least I have no financial reason to do
>> it.
>
>Ok, tear him apart, not the product.
For the last time, there is absolutely no proof of his claim the it is
the 'world's best', and no justification for his shameless promotion
of it here under the guise of helping others. If he wants to
advertise, let him do it honestly.
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> Good design will virtually eliminate these problems yes. Even in
>> simple designs (like my own valve amps) you can avoid these types of
>> problems.
>
>So your valve amps are good design, yes, IYO? The internationals haven't
>said so, how can it possibly be good?
Doesn't matter, I don't promote them here, I don't make them
commercially, I don't sell them, even privately, and I don't claim
they are the world's best.
>Perhaps I should have a listen to one before I pass judgment.... Now
>thats a new idea!
>
>> IMO retailers should go out of their way to avoid appearing to push
>> products that they sell.
>
>Agreed.
>
>> I have worked as a salesman (although not in
>> hifi) and I've found better results come from appearing fair and
>> unbiased.
>
>If this is your belief, how come you don't follow it?
I do, duh!
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> Really? How slow of you then?
>
> sonny!
>
>
> Because you need to resort to purposely not understanding what I said
> and need to keep coming back to this tired old line.
Good night preamp, I can't compete with your logic I'm afraid, besides,
I think you've sent everyone else to sleep a while back.
'Til the next time.......
Mal P
> Do you thin Ferrari's are fast... better not say yes, unless you've
> driven one, because it'd be a judgement on a product you haven't
> tried.
But that particular analogy perhaps isn't fair when comparing amplifiers.
The difference between amplifiers is not as dramatic as say the difference
between certain cars. Different amplifiers bring out, or may diminish,
subtle nuances on the recording. A better analogy, would be a comparison
between say a Ferrari and a Dodge Viper... how do they handle, how do they
perform in the wet etc etc... we all know both are relatively fast cars, but
such subtle nuances as road grip you can't pick without having driven both
cars, and the same applies to amplifiers... you can't make sweeping
statements about one amp's abilities without having actually heard it.
It's just my take.
Cheers,
Mal
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> Really? How slow of you then?
>>
>> No answer, so you sidetrack... good technique, but no brownie points
>> sonny!
>>
>> Are you deaf?
>>
>> Because you need to resort to purposely not understanding what I said
>> and need to keep coming back to this tired old line.
>
>
>Good night preamp, I can't compete with your logic I'm afraid, besides,
>I think you've sent everyone else to sleep a while back.
>
>'Til the next time.......
>
Sure....
George Lakey
forum somewhere which is the "world's best"? Or we could just ask
"Are ME amps the world's best" I suspect many replies will be"What's
an ME amp?"
Your challenge defines YOUR point of view as do my own and the remarks of
others. If we were to ask 10 dealers "which is the world's best"? I suspect
10 different answers.
The reviews I have seen / read of ME gear make a clear point on their
capabilities : they are capable products that can / do hold their own.
WRT to your statement a post or two ago about engineering knowledge / lack
there of / understanding of etc etc... maybe you could produce a product to
rival / better / or set a new standard in comparison to ME. Should this be
the case, then your stance would be without reproach (you indicate
engineering expertise).
Those that can do, those that cannot criticise.
WRT the claim of worlds best, prove ME is not without refering to personal
opinions, just produce the facts (this is of course a blatant two way
argument).
ME have nothing to prove, they have existed, thrived, adapted, progressed
and continued on their way. Whether or not they are the best cannot be
proved / dis-proved in such a limited forum, however, their quality is
substantiated by their longevity. Many alleged products of superior breeding
/ pedigree have long fallen by the wayside.
A good opinion is hard to find..............................
George.
Rick Stadelmaier
Preamp wrote:
>
> I didn't claim I had... you did.
So why comment?
> >You should believe no one, you listen for your self.
>
> That's a bit paranoid.
Why? Do you trust Trevor?
> > I wouldn't question it as it would be your prerogative to comment
> >on. However, this is not the case, you are making an assessment of a
> >product of which you have zero experience with, why?
>
> So, if you had never owned, say, a Rolls Royce, you would not still
> have the opinion that they were a well built luxury car? Of course you
> would, because the majority of others, who have experience of them,
> have reported on their excellence.
I would assume they are are well built car, however I could not
accurately judge whether they really are superior to a BMW or a Mercedes
or even a common Ford as I haven't driven one, and never likely to.
Things such as that can come down to status and you know it.
> You may judge the veracity of the
> claim, by the number that agree, vs. those that don't. If ME was the
> 'world's best' then a majority of people would have that opinion.
> They don't, and it isn't.
Majority means nothing, Sonys pretty wide spread, what are your thoughts
on its quality?
Rick Stadelmaier
>
> Do you thin Ferrari's are fast... better not say yes, unless you've
> driven one, because it'd be a judgement on a product you haven't
> tried.
I know there fast as I have seen published specifications, I also know
many heavyweight amps can output 1000w into 1 Ohm or 100a of current or
whatever. However I would need to drive a Ferrari for me to comment on
whether I think its a good car or not. Ditto with listening to the amps.
> Shit I need a bigger hammer to thump this basic concept in, do i?
Give that to me...
> >Ok, tear him apart, not the product.
>
> For the last time, there is absolutely no proof of his claim the it is
> the 'world's best', and no justification for his shameless promotion
> of it here under the guise of helping others. If he wants to
> advertise, let him do it honestly.
Fair enough, though punish him, not the product.
Preamp
<gla...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>Your challenge defines YOUR point of view as do my own and the remarks of
>others. If we were to ask 10 dealers "which is the world's best"? I suspect
>10 different answers.
I was not proposing we ask dealers.
>
>The reviews I have seen / read of ME gear make a clear point on their
>capabilities : they are capable products that can / do hold their own.
Maybe so, but not the 'world's best'
>
>WRT to your statement a post or two ago about engineering knowledge / lack
>there of / understanding of etc etc... maybe you could produce a product to
>rival / better / or set a new standard in comparison to ME. Should this be
>the case, then your stance would be without reproach (you indicate
>engineering expertise).
Why do you propose the ME as the standard to beat?
>
>Those that can do, those that cannot criticise.
Fine, but then I prefer valve amps anyway, so I am a backward git. :-)
>
>WRT the claim of worlds best, prove ME is not without refering to personal
>opinions, just produce the facts (this is of course a blatant two way
>argument).
Eh?
>
>ME have nothing to prove,
No, but Trevor does. ME didn't make the claims in this forum.
>they have existed, thrived, adapted, progressed
>and continued on their way.
I've never denied that.
>Whether or not they are the best cannot be
>proved / dis-proved in such a limited forum, however, their quality is
>substantiated by their longevity.
At a certain level, yes.
>Many alleged products of superior breeding
>/ pedigree have long fallen by the wayside.
>
And many survive... surely you aren't suggesting ME is the oldest as
well as the best?
Usul
<snip>
> So what do you think of my challenge to ask an international high end
> forum somewhere which is the "world's best"?
I'd imagine they'd respond something like:
"Nominate your list of contenters and we'll line them up and have a listen".
>Or we could just ask
> "Are ME amps the world's best" I suspect many replies will be"What's
> an ME amp?"
I'd have to agree, but would suspect that they would then followup with
something like:
"I'd have to take a listen to one before I could answer the question".
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Damn, you roped me back in.....
>
Frankly, it isn't hard.
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> I didn't claim I had... you did.
>
>So why comment?
Because you calimed you had, duh!
>
>> >You should believe no one, you listen for your self.
>>
>> That's a bit paranoid.
>
>Why? Do you trust Trevor?
Can't you tell sarcasm?
>
>> > I wouldn't question it as it would be your prerogative to comment
>> >on. However, this is not the case, you are making an assessment of a
>> >product of which you have zero experience with, why?
>>
>> So, if you had never owned, say, a Rolls Royce, you would not still
>> have the opinion that they were a well built luxury car? Of course you
>> would, because the majority of others, who have experience of them,
>> have reported on their excellence.
>
>I would assume they are are well built car, however I could not
>accurately judge whether they really are superior to a BMW or a Mercedes
>or even a common Ford as I haven't driven one, and never likely to.
If the majority of people who have driven one, were all saying they
were superior, then, yes, you would judge that.
>
>Things such as that can come down to status and you know it.
>
>> You may judge the veracity of the
>> claim, by the number that agree, vs. those that don't. If ME was the
>> 'world's best' then a majority of people would have that opinion.
>> They don't, and it isn't.
>
>Majority means nothing, Sonys pretty wide spread, what are your thoughts
>on its quality?
I thought we were talking high end, and besides, I've never heard
anyone claiming Sony is the world's best.
Preamp
wrote:
>Hi Preamp,
>
>> Do you thin Ferrari's are fast... better not say yes, unless you've
>> driven one, because it'd be a judgement on a product you haven't
>> tried.
>
>But that particular analogy perhaps isn't fair when comparing amplifiers.
>The difference between amplifiers is not as dramatic as say the difference
>between certain cars.
Well according to Trevor, the ME is better dramatically.
>Different amplifiers bring out, or may diminish,
>subtle nuances on the recording.
And some are better at one recording than another, and on a different
recording, the shoe may be on the other foot.
>A better analogy, would be a comparison
>between say a Ferrari and a Dodge Viper... how do they handle, how do they
>perform in the wet etc etc... we all know both are relatively fast cars, but
>such subtle nuances as road grip you can't pick without having driven both
>cars, and the same applies to amplifiers... you can't make sweeping
>statements about one amp's abilities without having actually heard it.
It wasn't a sweeping statement. I have said two things, one was with
regard to the world's best, and one was with regard that, al else
being equal, not having/needing a fan is better.
Preamp
<ri...@equinoxaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Preamp wrote:
>>
>> Do you thin Ferrari's are fast... better not say yes, unless you've
>> driven one, because it'd be a judgement on a product you haven't
>> tried.
>
>I know there fast as I have seen published specifications,
You also have the specs of amps, but do you believe them?
>I also know
>many heavyweight amps can output 1000w into 1 Ohm or 100a of current or
>whatever. However I would need to drive a Ferrari for me to comment on
>whether I think its a good car or not. Ditto with listening to the amps.
I don't believe you. Sorry, but if you are in the market for that
style car, there is no doubt it is a good one.
>
>> Shit I need a bigger hammer to thump this basic concept in, do i?
>
>Give that to me...
>
>> >Ok, tear him apart, not the product.
>>
>> For the last time, there is absolutely no proof of his claim the it is
>> the 'world's best', and no justification for his shameless promotion
>> of it here under the guise of helping others. If he wants to
>> advertise, let him do it honestly.
>
>Fair enough, though punish him, not the product.
Fer chrissake, I am not punishing the product. Nevertheless I can
point out deficiencies like the fan.
Preamp
>"Preamp" <pre...@antispam.dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
>news:3c59312e...@news.dingoblue.net.au...
><snip>
>> So what do you think of my challenge to ask an international high end
>> forum somewhere which is the "world's best"?
>
>I'd imagine they'd respond something like:
>"Nominate your list of contenters and we'll line them up and have a listen".
I imagine they'll each nominate the brands they like. Most people
reading such a forum will already have a list.
>
>>Or we could just ask
>> "Are ME amps the world's best" I suspect many replies will be"What's
>> an ME amp?"
>
>I'd have to agree, but would suspect that they would then followup with
>something like:
>"I'd have to take a listen to one before I could answer the question".
>
...and then say, but I doubt they can beat so and so.