Amp or Speakers?
Terence Siganakis
crap) or if my speakers cant handle the power (which also makes things sound
crap)?
I just got a new amp a Yamaha 795a (85 Watts) and i am running it at just
past the 6 oclock position (the little light at the top) and i am not sure
if my JB Audioline AL-600's can handle it.
On a second point, i am thinking about replacing them with a pair of VAF
DC-7's. I listen mainly to dance/trance music, and also mainly for home
cinema. I am worried about there power handling (amps to 100 Watts) and
there frequency range (only down to 40hz). Would i be better of saving a
bit and going to DC-X's?
my room is quite small (~4*3m) so i am not sure about my need for bass..
Thanks
--
Regards,
Terence Siganakis
Trevor Wilson
"Terence Siganakis" <t...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:c_k94.1457$lv5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> How do i tell if my amp is out of power (and thus making my music sound
> crap) or if my speakers cant handle the power (which also makes things
sound
> crap)?
**Please elaborate, on: "crap".
My guess is that you are hearing 'clipping' distortion. This is where the
amplifier is running out of power (the volume control position is
irrelevent). The one way to tell, for sure, is to place an oscilloscope
across the speaker outputs, and watch the screen, whilst playing music, at
usual levels.
Speaker problems, are usually somewhat more dramatic and permanent. Once a
speaker has been overdriven, it does not usually recover.
>
> I just got a new amp a Yamaha 795a (85 Watts) and i am running it at just
> past the 6 oclock position (the little light at the top) and i am not sure
> if my JB Audioline AL-600's can handle it.
**Again, difficult to say, but I suspect you either require more power, or
more efficient loudspeakers. Remember this: A speaker delivering 3dB more
efficiency, is exactly the same as doubling the power output of your
amplifier.
>
> On a second point, i am thinking about replacing them with a pair of VAF
> DC-7's. I listen mainly to dance/trance music, and also mainly for home
> cinema. I am worried about there power handling (amps to 100 Watts) and
> there frequency range (only down to 40hz). Would i be better of saving a
> bit and going to DC-X's?
**Maybe. A subwoofer can look after the bass, allowing the main speakers to
do what they do best and without serious compromise.
>
> my room is quite small (~4*3m) so i am not sure about my need for bass..
**This rumour of small rooms not being able to cope with low bass, is
complete bollocks. A larger room will certainly allow most speakers to do
their job, better (in the low bass), but low bass is always welcome in a
small room, if the music demands it.
--
Trevor Wilson
http://www.hutch.com.au/~rage
Graham
Siganakis" <t...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> How do i tell if my amp is out of power (and thus making my music sound
> crap) or if my speakers cant handle the power (which also makes things sound
> crap)?
>
> I just got a new amp a Yamaha 795a (85 Watts) and i am running it at just
> past the 6 oclock position (the little light at the top) and i am not sure
> if my JB Audioline AL-600's can handle it.
>
> On a second point, i am thinking about replacing them with a pair of VAF
> DC-7's. I listen mainly to dance/trance music, and also mainly for home
> cinema. I am worried about there power handling (amps to 100 Watts) and
> there frequency range (only down to 40hz). Would i be better of saving a
> bit and going to DC-X's?
>
> my room is quite small (~4*3m) so i am not sure about my need for bass..
>
>
> Thanks
>
> --
> Regards,
> Terence Siganakis
Read what Trevor Wilson said first. especially about small rooms.
AS far as you listening to trance /dance There are two schools of thought
on this one:
SkOoL 1 The engineers often overblow the bottem end a bit (ALOT) to
give the average PA system a bit of grunt under 60Hz and the average
ghetto Blaster so some people prefer the more efficient speakers which for
a given size don't go quite as low.
SkOol 2: The information being thrown at your speakers is more full
range (In the bass) than anything else so Bridged ME's and Duntech
Sovereigns maybee the way to go! This is an extreme.
One thing that is starting to become apparent is the amount of layering
occuring these days does lend itself to very detailed loudspeakers. In the
really old days when Trevor grew up ;-) they used to make a big thing
about hearing the penny drop off stage in the recording of a full
orchestra.
While the parameters have shifted slightly the trick these days is to
find a set of speakers able to reveal the full spaciousness and subtle
"layers" that as they are introduced. The engineering on some recordings
is becoming very sophisticated (AT LAST!)
My favourite setup is the one that goes for detail not absolute level.
I run two subs under two small bookshelfs. The nearest equivalent in a
production speaker would be something like WILSON Watt/Puppy or SL6000
Celestion.
A friend of mine has set up two Magneplaners (Small) and two LOCHHEAD
BP1000's. Great for that kind of stuff but again not the biggest SPL's on
the planet. The subs however can generate 117db in his room to 20Hz. The
top end is the limit but he chose the system with detail in mind. The bass
howevers is never strained. The bass was designed to take some of the
idiot samples that appear from time to time.
Hope this helps a bit.
Graham
--
** REALITY IS FOR ACCOUNTANTS **
Terence Siganakis
which seemed to come from the mid-low end of the spectrum. Aside from the
fuzziness in that section of the spectrum, everything else seemed ok...
(which sort of lead me to believe that it may infact be the speakers, which
i believe have exaggerated all there specs)...
Trevor Wilson <ra...@hutch.com.au> wrote in message
news:Pol94.2714$oJ5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
> "Terence Siganakis" <t...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
> news:c_k94.1457$lv5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> > How do i tell if my amp is out of power (and thus making my music sound
> > crap) or if my speakers cant handle the power (which also makes things
> sound
> > crap)?
>
> **Please elaborate, on: "crap".
>
> My guess is that you are hearing 'clipping' distortion. This is where the
> amplifier is running out of power (the volume control position is
> irrelevent). The one way to tell, for sure, is to place an oscilloscope
> across the speaker outputs, and watch the screen, whilst playing music, at
> usual levels.
>
> Speaker problems, are usually somewhat more dramatic and permanent. Once a
> speaker has been overdriven, it does not usually recover.
>
> >
> > I just got a new amp a Yamaha 795a (85 Watts) and i am running it at
just
> > past the 6 oclock position (the little light at the top) and i am not
sure
> > if my JB Audioline AL-600's can handle it.
>
> **Again, difficult to say, but I suspect you either require more power, or
> more efficient loudspeakers. Remember this: A speaker delivering 3dB more
> efficiency, is exactly the same as doubling the power output of your
> amplifier.
>
> >
> > On a second point, i am thinking about replacing them with a pair of VAF
> > DC-7's. I listen mainly to dance/trance music, and also mainly for home
> > cinema. I am worried about there power handling (amps to 100 Watts) and
> > there frequency range (only down to 40hz). Would i be better of saving
a
> > bit and going to DC-X's?
>
> **Maybe. A subwoofer can look after the bass, allowing the main speakers
to
> do what they do best and without serious compromise.
>
> >
> > my room is quite small (~4*3m) so i am not sure about my need for bass..
>
Philip Vafiadis
The DC-7 and DC-X are quite a bit more sensitive than your current
speakers Terence, and given the small size of your room very high volume
should be possible from even modest amplifier power.
Trevor's last point on the room size and bass is focused just on
reproducing the bass and not it's dynamic range.
Room size has a great deal to do with the dynamic ability of your
system...large rooms require much greater acoustic power to reach the
same apparent sound volume as small rooms, so the choice of DC-7 may be
valid over the larger DC-X in your small 3x4 Mtr room...it all depends
on how loud you want the system to play.
Philip Vafiadis
Managing Director VAF Research Pty Ltd.
Philip Vafiadis
Are you still making the LOCHHEAD subs that are the subject of your
post?
Philip Vafiadis
Managing Director VAF Research Pty Ltd
Graham wrote:
>
> In article <c_k94.1457$lv5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, "Terence
> Siganakis" <t...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
>
> > How do i tell if my amp is out of power (and thus making my music sound
> > crap) or if my speakers cant handle the power (which also makes things sound
> > crap)?
> >
> > I just got a new amp a Yamaha 795a (85 Watts) and i am running it at just
> > past the 6 oclock position (the little light at the top) and i am not sure
> > if my JB Audioline AL-600's can handle it.
> >
> > On a second point, i am thinking about replacing them with a pair of VAF
> > DC-7's. I listen mainly to dance/trance music, and also mainly for home
> > cinema. I am worried about there power handling (amps to 100 Watts) and
> > there frequency range (only down to 40hz). Would i be better of saving a
> > bit and going to DC-X's?
> >
> > my room is quite small (~4*3m) so i am not sure about my need for bass..
> >
> >
Graham
> Graham,
>
> Are you still making the LOCHHEAD subs that are the subject of your
> post?
>
> Philip Vafiadis
> Managing Director VAF Research Pty Ltd
>
> Graham wrote:
> >
> > In article <c_k94.1457$lv5....@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, "Terence
> > Siganakis" <t...@bigpond.net.au> wrote:
> >
Sorry Phillip I left a few things out.
Terence, the other alternative would be to run some high quality
Australian amps and speakers. In previous posts you may remember me raving
on about the relative value of Australian products so your interest in VAF
or ME IMO is well founded. The examnples I gave was from my personal
opinions of the slightly skewed frequency spread of this kind of music. So
any brands (overseas or not) were for ilistration purposes only. In a nut
shell a loudspeaker system that provides a decent amount of headroom (eg
a Big VAF system) in the bottom end plus an amp that won't run out of
puff (ME would be a good example) is what you are looking for. The
LOCHHEADS I referered to could be substituted for VAF, Whatmough, LEGEND,
etc.. subs in any case.
OK have I covered enough people here ;-) OOPS ... You might try Aaron
if you need more SPL but don't need quite the clarity. Still good value.
Or maybee Accusound.
And yes you can buy LOCHHEADS if you have the inclination. Coupled with
a good set of VAF's and an ME or two. What a system !!!
Peter Groves
Having 'cooked' a few speakers in my youth, by driving relatively
underpowered amps into inefficient (power wise) bookshelf speakers, I
tend to think it is your amplifier that is 'clipping', as it runs out
of power.
I am not familiar with your speakers, but the DC7's sound like a good
bet for your room size. If you need more bass in the future, then you
can order the VAF subwoofer.
I think the DCX's would physically dominate such a small space, and
they need to be about a metre away from side walls to sound their
best. That doesn't leave much room for you and your furniture!
I have the DCX's powered by a Marantz PM66se (50w) amplifier in a 7m x
6m room, and the amplifier is more than capable of producing life
threatening sound pressure levels.
Also, it isn't just the power output of your amplifier, but the
quality of the components on the inside which help produce that
realistic, detailed, bass sound that you crave. A quality amplifier
(NAD, Rotel, Marantz, Denon, ME - if you can afford one), will give
you a lot more 'weight' and 'slam' in the bottom end.
VAF speakers are very efficient and don't need powerful amplifiers to
perform at their best. This leaves you more money for the rest of
your system.
Regards
Peter Groves
On Sun, 26 Dec 1999 09:12:40 GMT, "Terence Siganakis"
Mark & Belinda
sophisticated that does not always imply *better*. As a general rule (IMHO) the
production values on most recordings (rock / pop / popular music in particular)
are far below that of recordings from the 60's, 70's and early 80's. This has
been the case since the introduction of CD. Mind you this is not an attack on CD
just the result of the introduction of CD. Music has become more portable tan
ever and as a result is being played on more and more Boom Box type "systems" and
in car systems. As a result more and more compression is being used in the
mastering of recordings to make them sound good on these "lesser" systems. This
is a reality (unfortunately) driven by the recording industry's impressions of
what the consumer wants - after all how many people do you know who have what you
would *really* consider to be a hi fi system? How many people do you know who
really share our passion for great sound? A very small proportion I would expect.
Just my $0.02 worth.
Cheers
Mark
> While the parameters have shifted slightly the trick these days is to
> find a set of speakers able to reveal the full spaciousness and subtle
> "layers" that as they are introduced. The engineering on some recordings
> is becoming very sophisticated (AT LAST!)
>
> Hope this helps a bit.
Graham
<mark...@bit.net.au> wrote:
> Whilst I agree that the engineering on some recordings is becoming more
> sophisticated that does not always imply *better*. As a general rule
(IMHO) the
> production values on most recordings (rock / pop / popular music in
particular)
> are far below that of recordings from the 60's, 70's and early 80's. This has
> been the case since the introduction of CD. Mind you this is not an
attack on CD
> just the result of the introduction of CD. Music has become more portable tan
> ever and as a result is being played on more and more Boom Box type
"systems" and
> in car systems. As a result more and more compression is being used in the
> mastering of recordings to make them sound good on these "lesser"
systems. This
> is a reality (unfortunately) driven by the recording industry's impressions of
> what the consumer wants - after all how many people do you know who have
what you
> would *really* consider to be a hi fi system? How many people do you know who
> really share our passion for great sound? A very small proportion I
would expect.
>
> Just my $0.02 worth.
>
> Cheers
>
Sorry Mark I snipped you off!
I don't disagree with what you are saying and it is very true!
I was assuming that Terence was one of the people that has found the 5% of
music available in the style he likes that is high enough quality to test
a set of VAF's.
The spectrum I was refering to was not "Enhanced bass" it was the lack
of physical constraints put on the origin of the sound (being artificial).
In the natural world MOST sound has a natural tendency to taylor
(tailor?) off at low frequencies. The BIG exception being thunder.
A few good composers (Who play keyboards and Software) rather than
physical intruments can generate sounds that can have a flat spectrum.
IE no natural rolloff.
The type of recordings I am refering to are not necessarily mass
commercial releases. They may not even press more than 1000 at a time. And
possibly only on vinyl.
They are often produced on 24bit 96Khz systems (until it get's to CD)
so may be compressed to 90db range (from 130db ).
It is comman for most of the recording to sound balanced even when that
16Hz undertone is shaking a house. The level at 16Hz (or lower) can often
be 10db up on natural things like pipe organs.
I suppose (as your last point says) that most people think HI-FI is a noun
(as in 100's of 1000 Watt Hi-FI's going for $299) and that most people
think electronic music is all "RAP CRAP"). It isn't, and not many people
know that.
It's not easy to find (like Hi end equipment) but it is out
there.....Spooky eh?
Cheers Graham
Conrad Drake
Mark & Belinda wrote:
>
> Whilst I agree that the engineering on some recordings is becoming more
> sophisticated that does not always imply *better*. As a general rule (IMHO) the
> production values on most recordings (rock / pop / popular music in particular)
> are far below that of recordings from the 60's, 70's and early 80's. This has
> been the case since the introduction of CD.
Currently watching (8.30 wed ABC) a program highlighting exactly this problem.
They track the start of the problem back to about the introduction of stereo.
"in the modern age, music to be played live and music to be recorded have become
two different things"
"Recording has vastly increased the proficeincy...and a lack of risk taking and
a uniformity of performance"
And these were relating to classical music.
CD