Aaron Speakers?
Me
good?
My local shop sells them. Anyone have any opinions / reviews on
their quaility, and or a website link?
I'm particulary interested in the:
AP4 Frontspeakers
SS-10 Rear Speakers
CC-60 Centre Speaker.
Thanks in Advance!!
Trevor Wilson
Me <m...@me.com> wrote in message news:3798...@casper.southcom.com.au...
> I recently was told that the "Aaron" brand of Australia Speakers are very
> good?
**I would not position them in the 'very good' category. They are decent
value for money, however. IMO, they are flawed, particularly in the bass
area. They are a little 'overblown', IMO. On the plus side, they are
respectably efficient, well made and use decent quality components.
Like all speakers, however, you MUST listen for yourself and make up your
own mind.
--
Cheers,
Trevor Wilson
wharris
huge price mark-up 200% or probably more. The drivers and components used in
the xovers would not even make the midfi grade, Aaron are OK in home theatre
apps (not good, just OK) but there are many speakers better than Aaron in
their price bracket. Look around and have a good listen the aaron sound
impressive at first but you will get tired of them very quickly.
Me wrote:
> I recently was told that the "Aaron" brand of Australia Speakers are very
> good?
>
Simon B
You really know your speakers..... This 200 percent markup is fucking
bullshit.... where the fuck did you get that from ? Made it up ? and what is
midfi? And the awards that Aaron speakers have own, do you enjoy ignoring them ??
I suppose you know more that audiophiles dont you now - along with your midfi
standard. Exactly what drivers do they use ? Or did you think that bit up to.
What speakers would you suggest for 530 dollars ?? You might enjoy speakers from
a company called Akai. Obviously you dont know shit, so keep your bullshit out of
this group.
Ben Chik
market have a cost/retail ratio of about 1/4, so that's more than 200% (but
that apply to any products not just Aaron speaker). Secondly, what Wharris
said is not entirely incorrect, the drivers and xover components used in
Aaron speaker are pretty ordinary. And that is reflected on the price as
well. As for the awards, anyone who trust any magazine awards are just
stupid, not even Stereophile classing system is reliable, let alone those
Australian magezine which their survivals are strongly rely on giving
"award" and "raving reviews" to hi fi company. Just tell me one Australian
hifi company that have not won any awards. Those "awards" are just as
bullshit as the comments you have made.
ben
Terence Siganakis
about $400 i think)!
wharris <wha...@dragon.net.au> wrote in message
news:379866E6...@dragon.net.au...
Simon B
Simon
swi...@wantree.com.au
Peter Miller
before Trevor??).
I sold Aaron speakers for over 5 years and found them to be an extremely
well priced and well (market) placed in the whole scheme of things. We only
ever had 1 (one) speaker returned out of the hundreds (yes hundreds!) of
pairs we sold, and it had obviously been overloaded to the max!! Even
though that sort of abuse is not covered by warranty, Aaron speakers
supplied a new driver for cost price to the consumer, they didnt have to,
but its the sort of company they are!
We all know there are better speakers out there than Aaron's, but I doubt if
there are better made, better sounding speakers for the price. Trevor can
also do some wonderful "tweaking' on them for a very small amount that
improves them immensly! But as the man says, if you like 'em, who gives a
flying......... what others think!!
Peter.
Carlton Audio Visual
low geared cost effective manufacturers on the planet and maintains an
almost perfect quality and build. They are the Holden motor of the
Loudspeaker market with an impeccable record. Their current markups and are
well within retailers normal speaker expectation and not unduly high. In
this competitive market high margin bullshit brands simply do not survive
more than one season. Any speaker sold through a modern established retailer
has a degree of vindication?!! The scams to be aware of are the Acoustic
Monitor men in white vans at traffic lights.
Regards
Rab Turner, Carlton Audio Visual.
www.carltonaudivisual.com.au
Me wrote in message <3798...@casper.southcom.com.au>...
ASM
I read Ben Chik email to the group. As a Australian Manufacturer of
Loudspeakers I cant believe what I was reading. First of all do you know how
hard it is to compete in this market here and overseas. To compete against
USA, Europe and ASIA with the wages, taxes, superannuation we have to pay
here and make a profit is very hard.
There are only a small number of Australian Manufacturers and we all make
great speakers, some as good and some better than anything else from
overseas. We all advertise and have reviews done on our products. How can
you say this is ......... Do you think the reviewer is going to put his
career on the line and say that a product is good if it's bad. We have had
bad reviews which made us take note and learn how to improve our quality and
finish of speakers which then led us to exporting our speakers to China,
Singapore, Dubai and now USA.
Let me send you a pair of our speakers on loan, you review them and post it
on the newsgroup. It would be interesting for all of us to hear your
comments.
The mark up is not more than 200%, it ranges from 40 - 70% This is what pays
the retailers wages, rent and light bill. He then discounts and makes 30-50%
if he's lucky.
Alan Henning.
Ben Chik <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
news:37990...@news.internex.net.au...
Patrick Scully
--
regards
Patric Scully
The Sound Man
ASM <a...@ar.com.au> wrote in message news:37a0...@bn.ar.com.au...
> Alan Henning <sa...@asm.com.au> wrote this message
> I read Ben Chik email to the group. As a Australian Manufacturer of
> Loudspeakers I cant believe what I was reading. First of all do you know
how
> hard it is to compete in this market here and overseas.
I do, but unfortunately, in my professional experience most Australian
manufacturers (of anything!) seem only to consider lower prices as a means
of competing. And this is the threadmill from hell, as most, if not all, of
the asian tigers are finding out to their cost. When Australian business
people finally learn to understand marketing, then will they be freed from
the vicious circle of micro-economic theories of competition -
perfect/imperfect competition. At least 70 years ago, economic theory
recognised the true nature of competition in markets other than commodity
markets where the goods are largely but not completely undifferentiated. The
true nature of competition markets other than commodity markets is
'monopolistic competition'. This is the case due to the fact that even where
a business offers what are nominally the same products as competitors, the
"complete offer" is different due to the characteristics of the
business/owner making the offer. Thus 'monopolistic' competition.
Unfortunatly, in Australia, the term marketing has come to be synomonous
with 'Promotion", e.g., advertising, publicity, selling, public relations,
sales promotion, etc. However, this is only one element of the 'marketing
mix', the other P's being Product, Price and Place. Even basic texts, the
best of which I have found to be Basic Marketing by E. Jerome McCarthy,
address this issue.
>To compete against
> USA, Europe and ASIA with the wages, taxes, superannuation we have to pay
> here and make a profit is very hard.
To take this point by point:
Wages - Check out the real wages in most of the countries in the OECD, you
may be surprised to find that Australian wages are near the bottom of most
of the tables, not the top.
Taxes - Again in the context of the OECD, compare the real rates of taxation
for private individuals and business in this group - Australia has some of
the lowest taxes. In Europe, where one has pay related social insurance, the
employee pays between 7 and 13% of wages with the employer paying at least
the same amount. Marginal income tax rates may look similar to Australia,
but check out the threshold and bands! In Europe, in some countries, VAT is
as high as 35% on goods such as loudspeakers (any luxury goods). And in the
US, in addition to Federal Income Tax, will have to pay State income tax,
and mayby city income tax, apart from property, sales and other taxes.
Superannuation - same as for taxes, it comes from the social welfare
contributions.
Plus don't forget the very high prices for motor vehicles, and petrol, in
most countries except the US. Just check Car magazine for UK prices, and the
monday edition of the Frankfurter Allgeminen Zeitung for German prices.
>
> There are only a small number of Australian Manufacturers and we all make
> great speakers, some as good and some better than anything else from
> overseas.
Whether they are as good or better than anything else - from overseas or
elswhere - matters little in the order of things. You are speaking like an
engineer, or similar product/production oriented person. These approaches to
doing business have become progressively obsolete since the end of the
1914-18 war. They have been superceded by the Marketing Concept, or a
marketing orientation to doing business. The problem here is that you all
seem to have been taken in the the 'efficient producer' bullshit put about
by the economic rationalist dickheads that form policy and opinion in this
country. This works, in the main part, with commodities. Commodities are
undifferentiated products and are mostly bound by micro-economic theory. But
for goodness' sake your products are NOT commodities, and they are not bound
by the laws of the commodity markets, so why constrain yourselves.
If you wish to come up to speed on what I am writing, please read the book
mentioned above, if you want more insight into the subject, then I recommend
you read Professor Kotler's Principles of Marketing or Marketing Management.
At the very least I recommend that you read and absorb one or two books by
Al Ries and Jack Trout - "Positioning - the battle for your mind" and "the
22 Immutable Laws of Marketing". These latter two are very easy reads, but
contain the essence of what good marketing is about. Try them!
BTW Homus Economicus is extinct, if ever such a species ever actually lived!
>We all advertise and have reviews done on our products.
In Australian Hi-Fi, Audio, and Home Theatre magazines that I have read
since coming here 11 years ago, one only gets reviewed if one advertises.
Can you suggest any incidences of reviews that did not come as quid pro quo
for advertising???
>How can you say this is ......... Do you think the reviewer is going to put
his
> career on the line and say that a product is good if it's bad.
I surely do, having read most of the magazines locally produced over the
last 11 years. I've also read the so-called "Best Buys" issues. Such
unadulterated bullshit in print would be hard to find. It seems to me that a
reviewer puts his/her career on the line if they DONT say good things about
the products reviewed. I can honestly say that I dont recall ANY incidence
of unfavourable reviews in these magazines. I wont identify them or the
reviewers, your libel laws are rather quaint!
>We have had bad reviews which made us take note and learn how to improve
our quality and
> finish of speakers which then led us to exporting our speakers to China,
> Singapore, Dubai and now USA.
But were the bad reviews actually in the hi-fi or audio press, or where they
in Electronics Australia or Silicon Chip?? Because there is surely a world
of difference between the reviewing performance of, say, Louis Challis, Rob
Evans or the editor of Silicon Chip and those who write in the audio press.
I would be interested in which journals actually did an objective (even
somewhat) review on your products rather than the usually sychophantic
rubbish that is the norm in my experience.
>
> snip<>
> The mark up is not more than 200%, it ranges from 40 - 70% This is what
pays
> the retailers wages, rent and light bill. He then discounts and makes
30-50%
> if he's lucky.
> Alan Henning.
In my experience, retailer mark-up percentages range from 100% to 300% In
general, depending on the products carried. If in your experience hi-fi or
audio retailers operated at the percentages you mention then it is not
surprising that so many of them go bust on a regular basis. Such low margins
on (relatively) slowmoving goods is a surefire recipe for disaster. Of
course this is just another example of the commodity market approach to
doing business. I wonder what are the retail margins are with the bigger
retailers? Not in the range that you mention, I think.
BTW, my credentials for the above are as follows: Electrical Engineering
degree, Law degree, Batchelor degree in Marketing, M.B.A., and the PhD in
Strategic Marketing. Ten years managing family businesses in service and
manufacturing, in addition to which I worked as a sales engineer for a
goodly number of years and taught selling and marketing to those interested
in making money. Also, I have been designing and building loudspeaker
systems since about 1969, and have done considerable amounts of consultancy
in the home and export marketing areas, not in Australia but in Europe and
the rest of the world from a base in Ireland. Since coming here in 1988 I
have worked as a business counsellor, facilitator, and consultant to small
business in WA until March this year. So I feel qualified to comment {;-))
BTW, I am happy to consult on matters of business, initially F.O.C., but by
private email, not in the newsgroup's public domain.
Johnny
I am always suspicious when magazines manage to co-ordinate the page
layout of the product reviews with advertisements for the retailers.
To me, Australian magazines have zero credibility.
Johnny
>Alan Henning <sa...@asm.com.au> wrote this message
>I read Ben Chik email to the group. As a Australian Manufacturer of
>Loudspeakers I cant believe what I was reading. First of all do you know how
>hard it is to compete in this market here and overseas. To compete against
>USA, Europe and ASIA with the wages, taxes, superannuation we have to pay
>here and make a profit is very hard.
>
>There are only a small number of Australian Manufacturers and we all make
>great speakers, some as good and some better than anything else from
>overseas. We all advertise and have reviews done on our products. How can
>you say this is ......... Do you think the reviewer is going to put his
>career on the line and say that a product is good if it's bad. We have had
>bad reviews which made us take note and learn how to improve our quality and
>finish of speakers which then led us to exporting our speakers to China,
>Singapore, Dubai and now USA.
>
>Let me send you a pair of our speakers on loan, you review them and post it
>on the newsgroup. It would be interesting for all of us to hear your
>comments.
>
>The mark up is not more than 200%, it ranges from 40 - 70% This is what pays
>the retailers wages, rent and light bill. He then discounts and makes 30-50%
>if he's lucky.
>Alan Henning.
>
Timothy Rose
there was
ever such a bias read, it would have to be What Hifi?. This magazine seems
to
consistently punch out reviews of a very select amount of brands, all of
which
are obviously good, but what about the smaller brands? Never in there
magazine
will you see a review of a redgum or a whatmough. they seem to stick to
brands
known to any audiophile. marantz, tannoy, kef, sony and the list goes on.
now, on the other hand, look at the aussie magazines. they seem to freely
test the
likes of these brands, but as well as the smaller companies, such as
orpheus,
whatmough and so on. Now, even though you have heard of these speakers, how
many places have you walked into that actually have these brands. its all
part of the
aussie way. and why should aussie magazines place the advertisments far
from the
review? any good equipment should be given the best possible chance to
succeed.
And as far as ASM go, I hate them. They seem somewhat rolled off at the
high frequencies,
and maybe a bit bass heavy. But there are also a hell of a lot of people
who love them.
now this has nothing to do with my hearing being wrong, but a demonstration
of the fact
that everyone has different tastes when it comes to speakers. I prefer
bright speakers with
agility, rather that extention.
What you have to realise is that is not the reviewers job to tell us weather
the speaker is
good or bad, but rather to give us an idea of the characteristic that it
exerts. the sound
which it has. i think both australian magazines and audiophiles are the
best. in england,
hifi magazines have far too much say in the future of manufacturers. if
they say that a speaker
is not good enough, then they can pretty much close down because the
magazines have so
much influence. i think what you have to learn is that people buy speakers
based on what
they feel sounds the best, not based on what a reviewer says. when was the
last time you
bought a speaker without listening to it?
regards,
mike
Johnny <john...@one.net.au.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:37a15d5...@news.one.net.au...
Ben Chik
Ben Chik
Audiophile(HK), Audiotechnique( HK), Audio Forum(Taiwan), Stereo Sound(JP),
and of course Aus hifi, and alot of other unregularly, but recently I have
reduce the number to just 2, Stereophile and Audiotechcnique, one reason is
that i can no longer afford the hundreds of dollars spent each month just on
Audio mags(i also buy mag for Photography, cars, remote control model, PC
and various current affairs mag as well). The other reason is that i can not
stand their bullshit anymore. The two that i still buy are not any better in
that regard, i only buy them because they have the best and largest
selection of the colour advertisment and specs, occasionally i reading the
reviews for a bit of a laugh, but definitly not for advice. It's good if you
are an non-audiophile starting to have interest in hifi, they sure are
exciting to read, but if you are serious about hifi, then magazines are not
a good source of information. Just look at one of the best known reviewer,
Martin Collom, he did a great job on the book "High performance
loadspeaker", very technically and professionally writen, but once he is
writing for a mag, whether it's for Stereophile or HFNRR, all the
professionalism is gone. So i can understand why u feel that Aus mags have
zero credibility.
Ben
Ben Chik
>I read Ben Chik email to the group. As a Australian Manufacturer of
>Loudspeakers I cant believe what I was reading. First of all do you know
how
>hard it is to compete in this market here and overseas. To compete against
>USA, Europe and ASIA with the wages, taxes, superannuation we have to pay
>here and make a profit is very hard.
With the increasing number of both manufacturing and retail campanies
starting recently,
I don't think audio is such a bad business after all. Most hifi stores are
nicely decorated and furnished, i wonder where the money is coming from?
>there are only a small number of Australian Manufacturers and we all make
>great speakers, some as good and some better than anything else from
>overseas.
Well obviously u have not heard Proac, ATC, B&W and Wilson speakers
>We all advertise and have reviews done on our products. How can
>you say this is .........
Correct, u all advertise = u all get good reviews
>Do you think the reviewer is going to put his
>career on the line and say that a product is good if it's bad.
Quite frankly, a big "YES"
>We have had bad reviews which made us take note and learn how to improve
our quality and
>finish of speakers which then led us to exporting our speakers to China,
>Singapore, Dubai and now USA.
I don't recall any bad review coming from Aus hifi, I think the only mag
that is really giving bad reviews is " What's hifi?" from UK, they have the
guts to give one star, unfortunatly they only deal with low end stuff.
Lot of " Made in Taiwan or China" crap get export as well, so what?
>Let me send you a pair of our speakers on loan, you review them and post it
>on the newsgroup. It would be interesting for all of us to hear your
>comments.
Sorry to hurt your feeling, but i have absolutely no interest in Aaron nor
Accusound speakers, some Australian manufacturer do make good speakers but
Aaron and Accusound...... i don't think so =(
>The mark up is not more than 200%, it ranges from 40 - 70% This is what
pays
>the retailers wages, rent and light bill. He then discounts and makes
30-50%
>if he's lucky.
Obviously u mis-understand my post, the ratio i was talking about was
manufacturing cost/retail, it is close to 1/4, however, i have nothing wrong
with that, all products on this planet have similar ratio as well. But i
have to agree that Australia do have a higher tax compare to places like HK
or Singapore. It's a cycle, high tax -> high price -> low sale -> even
higher price -> even lower sale
Ben Chik
Ben Chik
have the guts to stand against giant like sony and pioneer and stamp a
single star right in their face. Like i said, unfortunatly they only deal
with low-end stuff. And, Aussie mags have the smallest variety compare to
mag all over the world, have u ever seen a Krell or even an Adcom reviewed
in Aus hifi? Aus is a small player on the world hifi stage, of course u
won't see small company review on their mags, the brand u mentioned might
not even be available in UK, so what are u talking about? Mike, u are very
strange, u interpret thing different to us. Due to the small hifi market in
Australia, Aus hifi are forced to stay as a small potato mag, remeber, they
didn't choose to be that way, they have to be. As for foriegn review, it is
up to the foriegn dealer to push for us, likewise, Dan wouldn't come all the
way here to try to get his Krell a review on Aus hifi, it's is up to the
australian distributor to fight for a review. Brands like Cartier, Rollex,
Ferrari and Porsche rarely get advertised here because the dealers know
there is no demand for it. it is up to the devoted one to do all the
homework to find out where to get these product. What dealers do push for
are lower quality products that will sell well, brands like NAD, Rotel,
Marrantz etc, that's why u see them on Aus Hifi all the time. The reason u
see a lot of Krell and Audio research review in Stereophile is because their
dealer (or themselves) fight for a review. And the reason they fight for one
is because they know those product would sell well, they all work the same,
the only difference is that Stereophile write bullshit on expensive stuff
but aus hifi write bullshit on less expensive stuff, if the market allows,
Aus hifi will also turn to a Stereophile-like mag and bullshit on expensive
stuff. The trick is the same. Bottom line is, they are both unreliable,
treat them as colour catalogue.
>>i think both australian magazines and audiophiles are the
>>best
I think australian mags might be better that those from NZ, Kenya, East
Timor, Brunei and Fiji (provided they have any).
Ben
Johnny
<thepr...@crosswinds.net> wrote:
Yes I also have my doubts about
>How can you say that? Maybe you should read the english magazines. if
>there was
>ever such a bias read, it would have to be What Hifi?. This magazine seems
>to
>consistently punch out reviews of a very select amount of brands, all of
>which
>are obviously good, but what about the smaller brands? Never in there
>magazine
>will you see a review of a redgum or a whatmough. they seem to stick to
>brands
>known to any audiophile. marantz, tannoy, kef, sony and the list goes on.
They do make a fuss about these brands, especially Marrantz and
Tannoy. I as suspicious of this too. But they are actually very good
products in their price range, so it is difficult to pass any
criticism at this. I have found the 4 dominant UK Hifi Mags to be far
more objective that the Australian mags. The difference can be most
clearly seen by the number of critisms made when mediocre equipment is
reeviewed. Its obvious that Australian mags will never publish a bad
review of advertiser's product, if at all.
>now, on the other hand, look at the aussie magazines. they seem to freely
>test the
>likes of these brands, but as well as the smaller companies, such as
>orpheus,
>whatmough and so on. Now, even though you have heard of these speakers, how
>many places have you walked into that actually have these brands. its all
>part of the
>aussie way. and why should aussie magazines place the advertisments far
>from the
>review? any good equipment should be given the best possible chance to
>succeed.
Yes you are right, if I was a more patriotic and less of a discerning
audiophile I wouldn't write this post. What has to be remembered, is
that some of the Budget stuff in the UK, commands top dollar as an
import in Australian stores. And the English are equally concerned
about saving 10 pounds as they are about HiFi. Value comparisons made
in the UK dont apply here. So Australian speaker manufacturers have
an Advantage, providing they have the sales volume to import quality
parts at the right price. Don't get me wrong though, there are 1 or
2 Aussie manufacturers that are doing it as well as any others in the
world. Its just a pity their Australian awards dont stand out as they
should.
Trevor Wilson
> >Alan Henning <sa...@asm.com.au> wrote this message
> >I read Ben Chik email to the group. As a Australian Manufacturer of
> >Loudspeakers I cant believe what I was reading. First of all do you know
> how
> >hard it is to compete in this market here and overseas. To compete
against
> >USA, Europe and ASIA with the wages, taxes, superannuation we have to pay
> >here and make a profit is very hard.
>
> With the increasing number of both manufacturing and retail campanies
> starting recently,
> I don't think audio is such a bad business after all. Most hifi stores are
> nicely decorated and furnished, i wonder where the money is coming from?
**Making money out of selling hi fi is not as easy as many other methods.
The realised profit on hi fi equipment, for most outlets, must exceed about
20%. If not, the retailer must close his/her doors.
>
> >there are only a small number of Australian Manufacturers and we all make
> >great speakers, some as good and some better than anything else from
> >overseas.
>
> Well obviously u have not heard Proac, ATC, B&W and Wilson speakers
**I have heard all the spekers, you mention. In their own ways, those
companies have manufactured some very fine products. Let's get real, though:
B&W's low end models, are very ordinary performers, by ANY standards.
Ferrite core inductors, bipolar electrolytic caps. Cheap, flimsy, chipboard
cabinets, crappy wiring and HF performance, that sears the brain. Equally,
they are capable of building arguably the finest speakers in the world.
Proac and ATC, build, generally very good, expensive products. In their
respective price range, there are other products, which could beat them.
Even some Aussie products. I can't recall the model number, but recommend to
anyone the little bookshelf speaker, with the magnesium cones, made by
Vintage Sounds. It costs about $2,800.00 and will blow away ANYTHING in it's
size class. When I say anything, I mean anything.
Wilson also build some very good sounding products. HOWEVER, some of their
engineering practices, are very poor indeed. The first WATT, produced (a
speaker, I know quite well), exhibited an impedance dip of about 0.3 Ohms
(not a misprint!). This suggests amateurish design, by someone with little
grasp of the fundamentals of speaker design. The first WAMM, was one of the
poorest constructed loudspeakers (yes, I pulled one to pieces), that I have
ever seen. Soldering was bad. Wiring and layout was FAR below what any
decent speaker should be.
>
> >We all advertise and have reviews done on our products. How can
> >you say this is .........
>
> Correct, u all advertise = u all get good reviews
**Not entirely correct. As I understand it, Australian Hi Fi will not review
substandard products. In one respect, I don't agree with this attitude, but
on the other hand, I understand their point of view. From a purely
commerical veiwpoint, only one magazine, in my memory, was fearless in it's
printing of unbiassed reviews. It dissappeared, after a couple of years,
when the advertisers pulled the plug.
In any case, if you read Aussis Hi Fi carefully, you will regularly see
references to products that do not live up to the manufacturer's claims. A
recent review about a Musical Fidelity amplifier, is a case in point.
>
> >Do you think the reviewer is going to put his
> >career on the line and say that a product is good if it's bad.
>
> Quite frankly, a big "YES"
**The reverse also occurs. Witness, the frequent reviews of the old Perreaux
products, during the early 1980's. These amps were rather poor sounding
products, yet they gained excellent press. Even TAS reviewed the Linn Sondek
and panned it, during the 1970's. To their credit, they re-reviewed it and
discovered the products obvious qualities. All this occured in a magazine,
which, at the time, did not accept paid advertising.
>
> >We have had bad reviews which made us take note and learn how to improve
> our quality and
> >finish of speakers which then led us to exporting our speakers to China,
> >Singapore, Dubai and now USA.
>
> I don't recall any bad review coming from Aus hifi,
**Like I said, check out Aussie Hi Fi's reviews, carefully. You may be
surprised to find some negative comments.
> I think the only mag
> that is really giving bad reviews is " What's hifi?" from UK, they have
the
> guts to give one star, unfortunatly they only deal with low end stuff.
> Lot of " Made in Taiwan or China" crap get export as well, so what?
>
> >Let me send you a pair of our speakers on loan, you review them and post
it
> >on the newsgroup. It would be interesting for all of us to hear your
> >comments.
>
> Sorry to hurt your feeling, but i have absolutely no interest in Aaron nor
> Accusound speakers, some Australian manufacturer do make good speakers but
> Aaron and Accusound...... i don't think so =(
**When did you last listen to Accusound, Ben?
In short, I would suggest that anyone who has problems with Aussie Hi Fi,
that you should first read an issue, then send clear, concise complaints to
the editor. Allow him to clear up any misconceptions. Greg Borrowman is a
very approachable and knowledgeable person. He takes his job very seriously.
I have dealt with him many times and I can assure you that there is a clear
delineation of editorial and advertising departments (which is as it should
be).
Simonb
I have recently purchased 5 Australian made speakers. Up until 2
months ago, I wasn't going to, I was going to buy US speakers.
What changed my mind? This newsgroup (along with aus.dvd), when
comments came up on Australian speakers, the overwhelming comments were
(to paraphrase) "do yourself a favour and LISTEN TO THEM for yourself.
Dollar for dollar, the aussie ones are well worth it!".
So, I did. I didn't like the asthetics (sp) of some, but then found
one that I liked the look of, Krix KDX-M's. So, I then proceeded to
find a helpful dealer (Frank Prowse HiFi, in Mosman Park, WA) that was
prepared to let me sit and listen for hours on end (literally) to my
own DVD's and CD's. I then compared the same DVD's and CD's on other,
foreign, speakers that I was considering. _I_ liked the KDX's. It was
a personal opinion. Funnily enough, a few others agree with me, but
I'm sure some don't. That's fine, it's a free country. I'll never
flame anyone who reckons my speakers suck, that's their right :-)
Anyway, I guess I am interested as to why I had a perception that Oz
speakers weren't as good as foreign ones. I really don't know the
answer to that one. I would hazard a guess that I'd agree with Patrick
Scully on that one (BTW Patrick, doesn't Lightning BBS mean anything to
you?).
Interesting.
Oh, as far as magazines go, I have tried to read the Oz ones every so
often, usually Sound and Image and the other DVD one, but I STILL spend
a fortune on buying UK editions. Why? Because the UK editions have an
editorial content that I like (can anyone say "sense of humour?"), they
review interesting products (not always priced in the stratosphere,
like S&I) and don't look like a community newspaper (the other one,
who's name escapes me).
However, I will keep trying them....
Thanks for an interesting thread.
Simon....
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
Ben Chik
(some Krix as well)etc. However I don't think Aaron can qualify as one. The
Duntech Soverign was regarded as one of the best speaker system ever made, i
think the same statement can be made to other model from the classical
series. I think if one has a limited budget, he/she would certainly be wiser
to purchase speaker from Aus (but still not from Aaron though). If money
isn't an object, then unfortunatly i will have to purchase something
oversea. However, having said that, not everyone has a unlimited budget, so
if i am spending under 2k (or even up to 5k), i would definatly get aussie
product. I have got nothing against Aussie stuff, it's just Aaron i don't
like.
Ben
Nicholas Uffindell
One Wilson Audio owner sold his setup (Watt Puppies I believe) in favour of a
pair of Monuments from this Australian manufacturer. The Sultan of Brunei
purchased speakers a pair of Epitome References, Eclipses and Monuments. This is
quite an achievement, seeing as how the Sultan is worth more than a few billion
dollars.
Without a doubt, these are the best speakers that I have had the pleasure to
audition, though I have not had the opportunity to compare them with say, the
Wilson's or JMLabs speakers.
My point is that we can make decent speakers. However this is not to say that
everything we make is of equivalent quality.
Nick
Mark
Go purchase 'loud speaker building' from vance dickson and do a LOT of
reading, (both the book and the net)
Also, start with an easy design (i.e two way) to build.
In the long run you will spend a lot less money, and its a great hobby.
Another good idea is a kit from someone like VAF.
Your first attempt might not be great, but it'll be the start of
something great.
mark
Michael Cvetanovski
heard more expensive speakers and sure they are better looking ...maybe
better sounding ... but geee ... to get the extra 5-10% in performace ... I
cannot see the value ..I know you can buy $25000 ones ...but do you really
get the extra $24000 out of them -compared to these? ... I think not ...
Everybody is in the game of making money ..the manufacturers ... the
magazines ... the retailers and even the marketers ... I wonder if that is in
the book mentioned? .... in the end it is the user that decides ...
If they are happy with $500 .... or $25000 speakers (if they are rich
bastards ... in fact if I had that much money I would buy some of those
$60000 .. just for the point of it!) ....that is their choice
If some Australian Manufacturer is prepared to send me their speakers for
review like the magazines get ... and I am so impressed with them ...I'll
send them back money and keep the speakers!
... As for hi-fi magazines ...I look at them and put them back on the
newstand shelf (in most cases)
MC
Ben Chik
Nautlius series from B&W, if u have read one of the EA issue about the
Nautlius, u should know that they are not "bullshit" that sell for $75000,
the price might be rediculous but the technology is certainly there and they
know their stuff. IMO, the Osbourne are very good (certainly compare to
Aaron, at least they use good quality drivers, well constructed cabinet),
but not as good as u have said, even within Australia, i would get a pair of
Duntech or Whatmough. There are a lot of bullcrap in the hifi industry, but
all the speaker i have mentioned are truly great design, the system 5 from
Wilson, Proac respone 2.5, B&W 801. And one of the best speaker i have ever
heard, the Revel Studio. To suggest that Osbourne are the best speaker in
the world means that either it's your blind patriotism or u simply have not
listened to the some of the best speaker of the world.
Ben
P.S. The Sultan of Brunei has a pair of Osbourne, so what? He propably has
every expensive speaker in this world. Have u seen one issue of wheels (or
motor i forgot). He has 3 thousands exotic cars, noless than 4 F40's, 4
F50's, 8 Maclaren F1's, even custom 4WD wagon by Ferrari made in conjunction
with land rover specially for him.
Ben Chik
have built 2 way using Dyna D28 with only $600 budget. Most speaker around
the 2k range don't even get that.
Ben
Ben Chik
and high quality speaker system is only 5-10%. they don't even make the
grade, they are not even remotely close to mid fi standard, u will have to
at least get something like Tannoy or Mission to make the midfi grade. The
law of deminishing return applies to everything, including hifi, most of us
are sane enough NOT to buy speaker costing more than a car. But i don't see
how choosing some noise box from Pioneer or Yammie represent the maximum
cost/performance ratio, in fact i think the ratio is very poor. By choosing
Pioneer(or similar brand) as the point of balance between cost and
performance, u have limited yourself from lots of great sounding speaker
system that might be slightly pricer than the Pioneer or the yammie.
Ben
Mark
Exactly. Go by the rule of 4x. Spend a grand, do it properly and you'll
get something that sounds as good as a four grand setup.
Mark
Michael Cvetanovski
these hi end speakers ..could agree that the difference isn't great ...but
they sell them because of the bigger markup and because there is always people
to buy them ... and if I had the money I would too ... just don't forget deep
down the sound is logarithmic in nature so is our hearing ...so to get the 10
times performance increase you really have to strive to achieve that!
and that is what you usually pay for .... that last 10%!
Same goes for people that say that they can tell the difference when a
different set of multicore wires (different thickness wiring) is connected to
speakers and can tell improved performance in their speakers
I think they need a good hearing frequency response test and compare that to
the speakers they are using ...then go and buy speakers that can match or
equalise their hearing range ... we all have different hearing response and it
be pretty rare that any two people would agree what is the best speakers for
them. Again money for value the Pioneer speakers that I bought for $500 about
10 years ago still piss on any of the $2000+ speakers that you buy today!
MC
Nicholas Uffindell
I am by no means claiming that Osborn (drop the u and e by the way) are the best
speakers in the world. Nor did I claim that B&W's Nautilus good or
otherwise.....I never even mentioned them. Where YOU got that "bullshit from is
beyond me! Since you've bought this up however, for $75,000 I'd expect nothing
less than absolute listening perfection. I have not not had the privilege to
listen to the Wilson, Proac's or the B&W 801's but the speakers you're talking
about cost nothing short of a small fortune. Have you actually listened to these
speakers or are you regurgitating magazine information, the later of which I
talk with a pinch of salt.
As you seemed to have missed my point, the Osborns are the best speakers that
I/me/myself have heard so far. I do not claim that the are the best for others,
I only suggest that they are worth an audition when considering speakers in that
price bracket.
Just because you like the Revel, it doesn't mean that I will. Different people
have different tastes and this is something that in your infinite wisdom/self
absorption, you must realise.
In regards to the Sultan, are you trying to tell me that he buys speakers just
because they're expensive......I think not. If so, it would be rather useless to
use them as expensive coffee tables. I'd say that he bought them because he
liked the way that these particular speakers sounded. BTW, I have seen that
issue of Wheels where they featured his car collection....quite impressive!.
Nick
> Ok, the Osbourne might be good, but they are in no way better than the new
> Nautlius series from B&W, if u have read one of the EA issue about the
> Nautlius, u should know that they are not "bullshit" that sell for $75000,
> the price might be rediculous but the technology is certainly there and they
> know their stuff. IMO, the Osbourne are very good (certainly compare to
> Aaron, at least they use good quality drivers, well constructed cabinet),
> but not as good as u have said, even within Australia, i would get a pair of
> Duntech or Whatmough. There are a lot of bullcrap in the hifi industry, but
> all the speaker i have mentioned are truly great design, the system 5 from
> Wilson, Proac respone 2.5, B&W 801. And one of the best speaker i have ever
> heard, the Revel Studio. To suggest that Osbourne are the best speaker in
> the world means that either it's your blind patriotism or u simply have not
> listened to the some of the best speaker of the world.
> P.S. The Sultan of Brunei has a pair of Osbourne, so what? He propably has
Mark & Belinda
a grand and get something that sounds like it should have cost a quarter
of that. Spending bucks on drivers and crossover components is wasted if
you don't have the cabinet right. I agree with your first post Dickason is
an excellent starting point.
Mark
Ben Chik
magazine reviewer home in HK and Revel for three afternoon in Excel hi fi in
HK. U said that all the speaker i have mentioned are all very expensive, but
please not forget that they are almost the top model of each respective
brands, and if u look at the price of the top Osborn speaker, they too are
well over 10 grands. ANd let's look at the various Duntech model, the
sovereign for example cost well over 20k. But somehow all the Aussie
mega-expensive model get so much respect while the oversea ones are just not
value for money?!
And if u look at some of my other post, i am the one who is against megazine
review strongly. I could have name something which are even more expensive
with "raving" reviews, but instead the speaker i have mentioned are TRUELY
great design irrespective of personal taste and price. I particularly name
those several ones only where I know that a lot of R&D and advance
technology have gone in to designing and manufacturing such speaker. The
Revel for example, Madrigal has gone to extrordinary length to come up with
the cabinet construction, materials and drivers design. In such a case,
personal taste become irrelevent.
As for the Sultan, quite frankly i think he is just a rich bastard. Do u
think he even appreciate his car/hifi/whatever? He is well known to be a
useless playboy across asia. Lot of political leader, succeeful businessmem
(particularly in asia) have virtually no respect for him. How many seconds
do u think he has spent on listening to his Osborn before jumping to his 2
billion new toys arriving daily. Most of his cars are never ever driven, let
alone experienced and appreciated. If he can afford 3000 exotic cars, what
prevents him from buying 30000 pairs of world most expersive speaker system?
Quite sadly, i have to say that he just buys things according to the price
tag, for him, Osborn speaker might not even be up to task as a coffee table.
regards,
Ben
Nicholas Uffindell
> magazine reviewer home in HK and Revel for three afternoon in Excel hi fi in
> HK. U said that all the speaker i have mentioned are all very expensive, but
> please not forget that they are almost the top model of each respective
> brands, and if u look at the price of the top Osborn speaker, they too are
> well over 10 grands.
Wow, lucky you. I am quite envious now. Hopefully one day, I'll get a chance to
listen to all of those "top model" speakers. With regards to Osborns, I liked
the Monuments however I also quite liked the Epitomes which are roughly half the
cost. The price/performance ratio is not equal between the two and law of
diminishing returns is a major factor.
> ANd let's look at the various Duntech model, the sovereign for example cost
> well over 20k. But somehow all the Aussie mega-expensive model get so much
> respect while the oversea ones are just not value for money?!
I'll be the first to admit that 20k's for speakers is well out of reach for
myself. I guess that when the figure of 75k's gets lofted, I realise that sadly
these are even further out of reach.
> And if u look at some of my other post, i am the one who is against megazine
> review strongly. I could have name something which are even more expensive
> with "raving" reviews, but instead the speaker i have mentioned are TRUELY
> great design irrespective of personal taste and price.
Finally we agree on something, i.e. raving magazine reviews :-)
> I particularly name those several ones only where I know that a lot of R&D and
> advance
> technology have gone in to designing and manufacturing such speaker. The Revel
> for example, Madrigal has gone to extrordinary length to come up with the
> cabinet construction, materials and drivers design. In such a case, personal
> taste become irrelevent.
Hmmm... I can't concur here sorry. I guess we'll leave this as a difference of
opinion.
> As for the Sultan, quite frankly i think he is just a rich bastard.
Agreed. I only wish it was me ;-)
> Do u think he even appreciate his car/hifi/whatever?
Only the man himself can answer that one. It could easily go either way.
> How many seconds do u think he has spent on listening to his Osborn before
> jumping to his 2 billion new toys arriving daily.
Who knows, it might even be his alarm clock. They are apparently in his personal
office so I guess he listens to them once every so often. That said, he might
have 20 personal offices ;-)
> Most of his cars are never ever driven, let alone experienced and appreciated.
Now that is truly tragic!
> If he can afford 3000 exotic cars, what prevents him from buying 30000 pairs
> of world most expersive speaker system?
Nothing, but you have to put them somewhere. By the same token, what prevents
him from 30000 of the best of everything in the world.....alas...space. A good
rare car is an appreciating investment, a speaker is most likely not.
> Quite sadly, i have to say that he just buys things according to the price
> tag, for him, Osborn speaker might not even be up to task as a coffee table.
Arggg..... they're a little large (at 1.6 meters tall) for coffee
tables.....well I hope so at least.
Maybe the Revel's are his coffee table, or foot rest even.
Damn, it must be hard to have that much expendable income ;-) haha
Nick
Johnny
<ph...@cc.newcastle.edu.au> wrote:
Micheal,
The difference is several hundred percent. After you have lived with
a good HiFi system for even a very short time, your ears do start to
pick out more of the detail from the original music. Then you will
start to take the more realistic HiFi sound for granted. If you then
listen to a lesser mass market pair of speaker, the faults will be
really obvious. People often become acoustomed to their own systems,
but once they try something better, then its impossible to go back.
regards,
Johnny.
Conrad Drake
Mark & Belinda wrote:
>
> Very big emphasis on ...."do it properly" though otherwise you could spend
> a grand and get something that sounds like it should have cost a quarter
> of that. Spending bucks on drivers and crossover components is wasted if
> you don't have the cabinet right. I agree with your first post Dickason is
> an excellent starting point.
"This is becoming an FAQ! :-)"
The lazy approach is http://www.vaf.com.au. Jaycar, Altronics and one
or two others advertise kits of varying quality in Electronics Australia
&Silicon Chip fairly often. WAR Audio
(http://users.wantree.com.au:8080/~war/war.htm) will supply kits,
including the mind-blowing Ravens. I believe ME are now bringing Audax
(any kits?) & the Vifa/ScanSpeak dealership is up in the air.
For the more adventurous try the SE-1
(http://www.shamrockaudio.com/se-1.htm) or the ME-2/Ariel
(http://www.teleport.com/~lynno/) for well proven designs.
The gold mine on drivers is http://www.snippets.org/ldsg/ It has
links, or links-to-links to everything worth visiting.
Dickason "the loudspeaker design cookbook" (available a Jaycar or
altronics) is the
_first_ text. (And serves to highlight why it's worth paying $100 for
proper plans!)
Beyond that we get into the esoterics like Fostex, Lowther and DIY ESLs,
ribbons and line arrays. USe your search engine.
CD
Trevor Wilson
Conrad Drake <con...@directwest.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:37A6CAE5...@directwest.iinet.net.au...
>
>
> Mark & Belinda wrote:
> >
> > Very big emphasis on ...."do it properly" though otherwise you could
spend
> > a grand and get something that sounds like it should have cost a quarter
> > of that. Spending bucks on drivers and crossover components is wasted if
> > you don't have the cabinet right. I agree with your first post Dickason
is
> > an excellent starting point.
>
> "This is becoming an FAQ! :-)"
>
> The lazy approach is http://www.vaf.com.au. Jaycar, Altronics and one
> or two others advertise kits of varying quality in Electronics Australia
> &Silicon Chip fairly often. WAR Audio
> (http://users.wantree.com.au:8080/~war/war.htm) will supply kits,
> including the mind-blowing Ravens. I believe ME are now bringing Audax
> (any kits?) & the Vifa/ScanSpeak dealership is up in the air.
>
**ME provides all the speakers, instructions, crossover components, but no
enclosures, for Audax products. For those who are interested, ME approached
Dick Smith and Jaycar to sell the products. Neither company was interested,
since the profit margins were not high enough. They prefer to sell Taiwanese
drivers, where profit margins can be into triple digits.
Trevor Wilson
Michael Cvetanovski <ph...@cc.newcastle.edu.au> wrote in message
news:37A63D94...@cc.newcastle.edu.au...
> Well how much would you suggest 50% ... 100% ? I think retailers that even
sell
> these hi end speakers ..could agree that the difference isn't great
...but
> they sell them because of the bigger markup and because there is always
people
> to buy them ... and if I had the money I would too ... just don't forget
deep
> down the sound is logarithmic in nature so is our hearing ...so to get the
10
> times performance increase you really have to strive to achieve that!
> and that is what you usually pay for .... that last 10%!
**Suggesting % improvements, with hi fi equipment, is fraught with danger.
All listeners have different perceptions, as to how a particular item will
improve (or not) their system. I prefer people to make up their own minds,
rather than suggesting a particular level of improvement. As an instance,
which came to mind, just two weeks ago. A client borrowed a ME DAC, for
evaluation. His comments (to paraphrase) were: "With the DAC, I enjoy
listening to the system for hour after hour. Without the DAC, I listen for
about an hour or so, then I switch off and do something else." This type of
*listening pleasure* quotient, would be far more realistic. Difficult to
quantify, but easy to recognise.
>
> Same goes for people that say that they can tell the difference when a
> different set of multicore wires (different thickness wiring) is connected
to
> speakers and can tell improved performance in their speakers
> I think they need a good hearing frequency response test and compare that
to
> the speakers they are using ...then go and buy speakers that can match or
> equalise their hearing range ... we all have different hearing response
and it
> be pretty rare that any two people would agree what is the best speakers
for
> them.
**Nope. This is a flawed argument. The human ear/brain system compensates
for differences, quite effectively. We all have different listening biases
and that is good reason why there is such a diverse range of equipment, on
the market.My own preferences lie in the area of absolute accuracy,
dynamics, imaging and smooth frequency response. Others have different
ideas, about what constitutes 'good' sound.
> Again money for value the Pioneer speakers that I bought for $500 about
> 10 years ago still piss on any of the $2000+ speakers that you buy today!
**Maybe. Pioneer has built some very fine speakers, over the years. Let's
not forget one VERY important thing about loudspeakers: Except in the areas
of, computer aided design and materials technology, not much has changed in
speaker design, since 1935. Pretty much everything we have today, was known
and used before that time.
Conrad Drake
Trevor Wilson wrote:
> Conrad Drake <con...@directwest.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> >.....I believe ME are now bringing Audax
> > (any kits?) & the Vifa/ScanSpeak dealership is up in the air.
> >
> **ME provides all the speakers, instructions, crossover components, but no
> enclosures, for Audax products.
Thanks Trevor, perhaps you could convince ME to list some of these
things on their web site. Can't buy something if one doesn't know it
exists!
> For those who are interested, ME approached
> Dick Smith and Jaycar to sell the products. Neither company was interested,
In Jaycar's defence, they do already stock a "premium" brand (Vifa) and
were the first "bits shop" to print FR plots and list TS parameters.
And do have half-decent xover caps and (high DCR) aircore inductors.
DSE is still to wake up to evolution in DIY audio.
(Indeed _still_ none of the "big four" stock decent electrolitics. )
But, here again, is the opportunity for the small Australian
distributors to WAKE UP* and move some stock. A little bit of decent
(e)mail order marketing makes a big difference - you don;t need the
o'head of a store in every mall.
Conrad D
(* don't get me started on the price/performance ratio of average
"exclusive Australian distributor" :-/ )
CD
--
Direct West Invs. Solutions for Embedded Systems.
conrad...@directwest.iinet.net.au (ph)+61 8 9285 1000
http://directwest.iinet.net.au (mb)+61 40 747 1611
12 Gayton Road, City Beach, WA 6015 AUSTRALIA
MC
theatre system ...
I am not going to comment on too many of the replies but mainly on the last one
Trevor made
" ....not much has changed in speaker design, since 1935. Pretty much
everything we have today, was known and used before that time."
How true ... and that is my argument ... designers, manufacturers are striving
for absolute speaker perfection ... however to me it ... all seems like the
elusive attainability to get to the speed of light . ...and to get to that point
in speaker perfection every % improvement is horrendous in cost and achievement
.... and this is where the high end speakers excel! and people pay through the
nose for it ...
Further .... a little experiment for people that own a hi-fi shop .....with good
range of speakers from the under $1000 to the $10000 mark, say.
Invite a customer that is not that literate as far as speaker brands etc. in
your listening room and let him/her hear the range of speakers say 5 sets (you
might blindfold them not to see how they look ..as that sometimes prejudices the
outcome).
Let them hear the the speakers with the same amp setup etc. and let them rank
the speakers ...repeated a number of times ...so they make a definite selection
..best to worst ...and then tell them ,...that out of the 5 to also rank them in
the scale 1 to 10 compared to one another.
Well my prediction is that they will probably pick 1k and 10K speakers as the
worst as best ...and maybe others in between ... but then make them rank them in
cost of $1000 to $10000 ... and probably they will put most of them below the 5k
mark .. which will justify my argument above that the speaker cost is not linear
but almost logarithmic in nature to achieve better performance!
MC
Trevor Wilson
>
>
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
> > Conrad Drake <con...@directwest.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
> > >.....I believe ME are now bringing Audax
> > > (any kits?) & the Vifa/ScanSpeak dealership is up in the air.
> > >
> > **ME provides all the speakers, instructions, crossover components, but
no
> > enclosures, for Audax products.
> Thanks Trevor, perhaps you could convince ME to list some of these
> things on their web site. Can't buy something if one doesn't know it
> exists!
**Excellent point, Conrad! I'll do just that. Unfortunately (or fortunately,
depending upon your point of view), ME has been experiencing some growth, in
other areas of their business, recently (ME amps, MRS systems, etc) and the
web site design has been passed to an employee, with little experience in
that area. Hopefully, as she learns more, the site will grow accordingly.
The other aspect to Audax, is the fact that ME supplies a large amount to
OEM guys. The hobbyist market has proven very difficult, mainly due to the
HUGE range that Audax manufacture. It is too difficult (read: expensive) for
ME to stock the entire range. Again, hopefully things will improve, in this
area shortly. The removal of Sales Tax, should allow ME to be able to
compete with overseas suppliers, next year. At present, it is often possible
to buy some Audax models at lower prices, than ME can supply.
>
> > For those who are interested, ME approached
> > Dick Smith and Jaycar to sell the products. Neither company was
interested,
>
> In Jaycar's defence, they do already stock a "premium" brand (Vifa) and
> were the first "bits shop" to print FR plots and list TS parameters.
> And do have half-decent xover caps and (high DCR) aircore inductors.
**With Vifa, they can make quite large profits margins, because they
directly import. With Audax, they do not. They are not happy with a *normal*
profit margin. Dick Smith has a mentality which seems to preclude the supply
of quality components to home constructors. I danced with Dick Smith, for
several months a couple of years ago. I gave up. Although some individuals,
in the DSE organisation were receptive to Audax (and other quality)
products, there is a public service mentality present, which will choke the
life from original thinkers. Sad.
>
> DSE is still to wake up to evolution in DIY audio.
> (Indeed _still_ none of the "big four" stock decent electrolitics. )
**ME stocks quite respectable electros (and biplolars), if you require them.
They are more expensive than those available from DSE and Jaycar, but offer
very low ESR and ESL figures. Email me, if you want some prices, etc.
>
> But, here again, is the opportunity for the small Australian
> distributors to WAKE UP* and move some stock. A little bit of decent
> (e)mail order marketing makes a big difference - you don;t need the
> o'head of a store in every mall.
**True.
Tibor Bece
Speaking of 'build your own', I would appreciate any comments on the
Dynaudio Aries kit. I have got one kit (last year) and I still have
not done anything with them. Deep thoughts:
-is the original cabinet design good enough? I was thinking more
like round edges, sandwich layered damping internally (3 layers of
hardoard + rubber glue), etc.
-Where to get _nice looking_ (not just nice sounding!) cabinets in Oz?
-Is the original 6dB/oct crossover with phase correction really that
good? What about a Leap optimised design for the 20W75 and D220?
Thanks!
Tibor Bece
Conrad Drake wrote:
>
> "This is becoming an FAQ! :-)"
>
> The lazy approach is http://www.vaf.com.au. Jaycar, Altronics and one
> or two others advertise kits of varying quality in Electronics Australia
> &Silicon Chip fairly often. WAR Audio
> (http://users.wantree.com.au:8080/~war/war.htm) will supply kits,
> including the mind-blowing Ravens. I believe ME are now bringing Audax
> (any kits?) & the Vifa/ScanSpeak dealership is up in the air.
>
Johnny
wrote:
>Well my prediction is that they will probably pick 1k and 10K speakers as the
>worst as best ...and maybe others in between ... but then make them rank them in
>cost of $1000 to $10000 ... and probably they will put most of them below the 5k
>mark .. which will justify my argument above that the speaker cost is not linear
>but almost logarithmic in nature to achieve better performance!
>
>MC
>
Thats a strange suggestion, prices of audio equipment is most often
relted to how strong the image of the name brand is in the market.
Just look at either Mark Levinson or Bose.
Audio performance is often not related to cost, although it really
does depend on what aspects of performance appeal to you. For
example, I really enjoy listening to a Mission branded speaker that
cost about $500. Pioneer or Bose equipment at twice the price is
totally uninteresting to me.
regards,
Johnny.
Ben Chik
brandnames are not audiophile, and they don't have the need/desire to want
to listen to better hifi. I did just what u said a year ago, only that time
with 3 system instead of 10. Amazingly, most people prefer the low end
system, because they are so accustomed to the sound of a mini system that
when they are given a better sound, they automatically rejects it. One lady
even told me that the sound is so seperate between the two speaker that she
believed that was the worse system, when in fact that was the stereo image
that most of the us audiophile spend years to achieve. Obviously, she has
been brain-washed with either a mono portable boom box or a badly cross talk
stereo system. I spent the entire evenining to convince her that stereo
image and seperation is actually a good thing to have, but no matter how
hard i tried she still prefer the Sony mini.
MOst of the audience (more than 20 non audiophiles) either liked the sound
of a HT system where apperently it offered more thrill or prefered the nice
looking Sony mini because they cannot handle the sudden difference in the
music, especially the high to low frequency extension and the increased
dynamic range offered by the real hi fi system. I was very disappointed that
night, it was like talking Puccini to a bunch of spice girl fans. I swear i
will never organise such a thing again =(
Ben
Ben Chik
of the money on advertising, even lot of non-audiophile know what Bose is,
on the other hand, ML is famous only amongs the audiophiles because it has
been around for a long time, they might have produced some bad product along
the years, but even the "relatively bad ones" are built to a very high
standard using high quality components. One imporatnt point is that the
reason ML is such a high profile brand is because they have produced some
extremly good products over the years, not because they have spent a long of
money on advertising. ML advertises just as regularly as most of the other
brands do. Not like Bose where they put a "Bose show" in the Melb city Myer
(for those of u from Interstate, apperently they put a pair of bose behind
two big dummy speaker boxes, then at the end of the show they remove the
boxes to impress the audience, cheap stunt really). One more point, ML
certainly does not produce the most expensive products, some tube amp from
Audionote, a pair of monoblock from the cable company Siltech, some Goldmund
product, they are all products with a crazy price tag by relatively lesser
known company.
Ben
P.S. I am not saying this because i am a ML user, remember, when audiophiles
mentioned ML, no matter they personally like ML products or not, they can
still have confidence to expect a certain level of build and sound quality,
even on their worst products. While on the other hand, u can no longer do
the same with Bose.
Ben Chik
then bitumen on top and finally high density foam. A tedious job but works
very very well. The lead lining certainly made the difference, so much
clearer mid and high and tighter bass. I made two pair of identical speaker,
one with the lead, and one with only the bitumen and foam, the difference,
well, u can't call it huge, but everytime when i hear that extra little
ambience in the Mile Davis record (it might just well be 1% or 2% that many
people in the NG will suggest ), but, i tell ya, sometime it's the extra 1%
that counts.
Ben
P.S. as long as u keep the internal volume unchanged, thicker MDF, more
bracing, more damping materials never goes wrong. Just make the cabinet as
dead as possible, what the Audionote said about their speaker use no bracing
at all so "they works like a guitar" is bullshit.
Ben Chik
good i believe (if i remember correct, they are solen and air coil) And if u
look ate most of the best sounding speakers that use Dyna driver, almost all
of them keep the simple 6db/oct design. That's what Dyna driver are design
for anyway, if u are using something like the Seas Excel range, then that's
a different story.
Ben
Timothy Rose
listened to
a yamaha or pioneer speaker, they seem to be bass boxes. Whether this is
because
they are designed to satisfy american tastes, who knows.In terms of hifi,
they
really don't make the grade. Any decent speaker manufacturer can make
speakers
at the same price that sound about 300% better. They just lack the purity
of the
Tannoy or Krix speakers. What you must remember is that y & p concentrate
on amps & DVD players rather than speakers.
Michael Cvetanovski <ph...@cc.newcastle.edu.au> wrote in message
news:37A63D94...@cc.newcastle.edu.au...
> Well how much would you suggest 50% ... 100% ? I think retailers that even
sell
> these hi end speakers ..could agree that the difference isn't great
...but
> they sell them because of the bigger markup and because there is always
people
> to buy them ... and if I had the money I would too ... just don't forget
deep
> down the sound is logarithmic in nature so is our hearing ...so to get the
10
> times performance increase you really have to strive to achieve that!
> and that is what you usually pay for .... that last 10%!
>
> Same goes for people that say that they can tell the difference when a
> different set of multicore wires (different thickness wiring) is connected
to
> speakers and can tell improved performance in their speakers
> I think they need a good hearing frequency response test and compare that
to
> the speakers they are using ...then go and buy speakers that can match or
> equalise their hearing range ... we all have different hearing response
and it
> be pretty rare that any two people would agree what is the best speakers
for
> them. Again money for value the Pioneer speakers that I bought for $500
about
> 10 years ago still piss on any of the $2000+ speakers that you buy today!
>
>
Patrick Scully
news:7o0f64$69r$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Hmmmm, a very interesting thread. Here's my 2c worth.
> snip<
>
> Anyway, I guess I am interested as to why I had a perception that Oz
> speakers weren't as good as foreign ones. I really don't know the
> answer to that one. I would hazard a guess that I'd agree with Patrick
> Scully on that one (BTW Patrick, doesn't Lightning BBS mean anything to
> you?).
No, please enlighten us {:-)) BTW I also live in WA!
>
> Interesting.
I really should mention that my comments also apply to Australian business
in general, not just manufacturers. Having counselled some hundreds of
proprietors of small businesses in WA since the begining of 1989, I have
detailed files that support the points I made as far as WA is concerned.
Based on the behaviour of Australian business in general as reported in the
media, their annual reports, and their stated view of the world, I have no
grounds for believing that they are any different to the businessed with
which I have experience!
> Thanks for an interesting thread.
>
> Simon....
>
>
> Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
> Share what you know. Learn what you don't.
--
regards
Patric Scully
The Sound Man
Mark & Belinda
Ben Chik wrote:
> I do not agree, u cannot possibly compare ML to Bose. Bose has spent most
> of the money on advertising, even lot of non-audiophile know what Bose is,
> on the other hand, ML is famous only amongs the audiophiles because it has
> been around for a long time, they might have produced some bad product along
> the years, but even the "relatively bad ones" are built to a very high
> standard using high quality components. One imporatnt point is that the
> reason ML is such a high profile brand is because they have produced some
> extremly good products over the years, not because they have spent a long of
> money on advertising. ML advertises just as regularly as most of the other
> brands do. Not like Bose where they put a "Bose show" in the Melb city Myer
> (for those of u from Interstate, apperently they put a pair of bose behind
> two big dummy speaker boxes, then at the end of the show they remove the
> boxes to impress the audience, cheap stunt really). One more point, ML
> certainly does not produce the most expensive products, some tube amp from
> Audionote, a pair of monoblock from the cable company Siltech, some Goldmund
> product, they are all products with a crazy price tag by relatively lesser
> known company.
Once again Ben, why are nearly all of your comments so _$$$ = quality_
oriented? The post which you replied to suggested that $$$ do not necessarily
equate to quality (isn't this deja vu). The implication being that ML products
can and do command a higher price _because_ of their reputation than would be
justified by sonic performance alone. There is no problem with this, people in
all areas will often pay more for peace of mind that comes from an established
reputation. This does not, however, _always_ relate to "value for money" to
others. No criticism, just different opinions.
> Ben
>
> P.S. I am not saying this because i am a ML user, remember, when audiophiles
> mentioned ML, no matter they personally like ML products or not, they can
> still have confidence to expect a certain level of build and sound quality,
> even on their worst products.
I won't argue this with you but I don't agree that having the "...confidence to
expect...." necessarily means that your expectations will be met. Whether this
is ML, Audionote, Pioneer, BMW, Ferrari or anything else for that matter.
> While on the other hand, u can no longer do
> the same with Bose.
Could you _ever_ say this with Bose???
Ben Chik
>oriented? The post which you replied to suggested that $$$ do not
necessarily
>equate to quality (isn't this deja vu). The implication being that ML
products
>can and do command a higher price _because_ of their reputation than would
be
>justified by sonic performance alone. There is no problem with this, people
in
>all areas will often pay more for peace of mind that comes from an
established
>reputation. This does not, however, _always_ relate to "value for money" to
>others. No criticism, just different opinions.
I don't know what u are talking about? I didnot mentioned a single thing
about $$=quality in my last post, nor did i suggest any of the products i
mentioned are value for money. Did u even read it? Or u just jump on me
because "Ben Chik" was next to the post. I think most people with the lowest
IQ can figure out the main thing i was suggesting, and that was "high
profile brand name does not equal to high price", to strengthen my point, i
had included some expensive products from lesser known brand names, i didn't
even say a single thing about their quality. All i was saying is "Reputation
not equal to price"! I mean, I don't mind people to have different opinion,
that's the only reason to have this NG, if everyone else agree with me
everytime, then quite frankly i will leave. But, please read my post
carefully before attacking my point, i don't want to defend words that i did
not say.
>I won't argue this with you but I don't agree that having the
"...confidence to
>expect...." necessarily means that your expectations will be met. Whether
this
>is ML, Audionote, Pioneer, BMW, Ferrari or anything else for that matter.
quite frankly, when i pruchase something from ML(same go for Duntech, ME,
BMW, Krell, Rolex, and the list extend to Rotel, Aduiolab, Casio etc ), I
do think I have the confidence to expect a certain level of quality from
them. If u somehow are unhappy with the products i have mentioned, your
expectation is simply too high, because if a Ferrari still doesn't satisfy
u, i don't know what will. Also, just exacly which model of ML, Audionote,
BMW, Ferrari that did not meet your expectation? And which model of Bose
turn u one so much? It would be interesting to know.
Ben
Mark & Belinda
Ben Chik wrote:
No model of Bose has ever turned me on. Full Stop. I'm sorry if I misconstrued
the meaning of you post but don't atack me for doing something of which you
yourself are guity.
MC
MC
Conrad Drake
dropped into Jaycar this week and they have most their speakers on
sale. The Vifa range seem to be all about 25% off. Not sure how this
compares with prices from other Vifa stockists (eg. altronics)
I also note that they have 15,000 uf/80V electros for $10 & now stock
noval & octal sockets!
CD
Angela, Steve Hanslip
for killing resonance.
Steve
Mark wrote:
> If you only want to spend 600-700 dollars Australian build your own.
> Go purchase 'loud speaker building' from vance dickson and do a LOT of
> reading, (both the book and the net)
>
> Also, start with an easy design (i.e two way) to build.
> In the long run you will spend a lot less money, and its a great hobby.
> Another good idea is a kit from someone like VAF.
>
> Your first attempt might not be great, but it'll be the start of
> something great.
>
> mark
Trevor Wilson
Angela, Steve Hanslip <an...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:37AD5D8F...@iinet.net.au...
> Anyone else tried reinforced concrete? A huge amount of work but
unsurpased
> for killing resonance.
> Steve
>
**Yep. It works very well, but it is a colossal pain in the butt, in every
other area. Just try making small alterations to the enclosure. -:(
Patrick Scully
merely tries to minimise the effects of these. In an enclosure, shape
affects the propagation of resonances, e.g., the B&W Nautilus which tries to
lose the back radiation of the cones through a damped and sealed
transmission line; and transmission line loudspeakers use these to enhance
the bass output below a reasonable level.
With cabinet construction, the task is to tune the wall materials such that
the resonances are above the audible range, not an easy task but
achieveable. Unfortunately, reinforced concrete exhibits resonances that ARE
in the audible range and in fact this is one of the worst materials IMO for
cabinet construction. In addition to using irregular shapes like a
trapezoid, the best approach that I have come across is the use of
constrained layer construction, which comprises a sandwich of different
materials that are bonded with a lossy adhesive live rubber! The best
combination that I found for minimal panel radiation is as follows: inner
layer 12mm Gyprok sheet, next layer 3mm aluminium sheet, next layer 12mm
Gyproc sheet, with the outer layer in 16 or 18 mm MDF. Of course it is
necessary to use braces for large unsupported panels, these should be placed
in an irregular manner to break up resonances. Finally, the use of 3mm
veneers such as Jarrah or Teak adds to the panel damping as well as
providing a luxury finish.
Wall construction is another area where reinforced concrete show how poor it
is at damping sound, and bricks are not much better. There are lots of
mythologies around about the relative damping properties of construction
materials, if you want to know about the right materials and processes to
use consult an audio engineering or architectural text book!
--
regards
Patric Scully
The Sound Man
Angela, Steve Hanslip <an...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:37AD5D8F...@iinet.net.au...
> Anyone else tried reinforced concrete? A huge amount of work but
unsurpased
> for killing resonance.
> Steve
>