Vaf's $1 Crossover - Fantastic
Dennistraeger
Having decided around 4 years ago to put a deposit on the first Vaf Signature
I-93, I was hanging around both at Vaf & The Cabinet Maker during the it's
development & construction & had some insight into the development of Vaf's
DCX.
The DCX was a huge R&D project, that cost Phil ,Keith & VAFa large amount of
money & time.
Right from day 1 the whole aim of the design project was to try to eliminate
the crossover. Vaf had already partially done this with the DC7 with "physical"
filters in the cone attached to the pole piece. With the DCX, Phil wanted to
take this even further.
The result of this was a true Hi-Fi break through and probably the best
performing speaker in the world at anywhere near its price point.
If people want to spend $3 - $5k on mediocre sounding speakers from overseas,
then in my opinion your just wasting your money. Try to auditon Vaf or other
quality Australian Speakers. I tried everything & converted from Kef,Duntech
etc about 10 years ago. I could'nt believe the realism of vocals when I heard
my first set of Vaf's.
PS I am a lifelong Hi-Fi enthusiast on my 3rd pair of Vaf Speakers have no
interest in Vaf other than from a happy customer's point of view. I have found
Phil etc to be totally trustwothy in all my dealings , which is a stark
contrast to some of the retailers I have put up with over the years.
DENNIS TRAEGER
Trevor Lees
crossovers.6db per octave no woofer coil .........maybe their approach might
be 'new' but I doubt it.....woofer rolloff without components in very
'old' idea and been tried by quite a few company's (some English speakers
come to mind)and including one model of mine in 1988.then previously in
1971.......cheers Trevor Lees
PS the only original part of the VAF's may be their balance of method in
mechanical design of the woofers or box design.there's not much left..??
"Dennistraeger" <dennis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010517065808...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
VAF Research
> crossovers.6db per octave no woofer coil .........maybe their approach
might
> be 'new' but I doubt it.....woofer rolloff without components in very
> 'old' idea and been tried by quite a few company's (some English speakers
> come to mind)and including one model of mine in 1988.then previously in
> 1971.......cheers Trevor Lees
While the use of a single capacitor crossover is far from a new idea you
seem to miss the point with the DC-X. Even the capacitor is not required
acoustically...it is just there to stop the tweeter blowing up. As an
engineer Trevor, don't you think that there might be something else going on
with the DC-X given it's superlative measured performance......Can you
recall if any of these old designs you mentioned came anywhere near having
+/-5 degree phase response or a cumulative spectral decay that is 12-15 db
down in 0.2mS??? I think not.
> PS the only original part of the VAF's may be their balance of method in
> mechanical design of the woofers or box design.there's not much left..??
What an odd comment....As I am sure you are aware, the driver design and the
system design is easily the *LARGEST* part of the design process in any of
our models. I assume your inclusion of these as a Ps. was a clumsy attempt
to minimise any perception of these as important elements to non-technical
readers.
I have tried to engage you directly on your ethics in this newsgroup Trevor,
but you do not seem to stay still long enough to get to any real
substance....You are very active in this group with sales messages so I know
you have the time to participate...if you really believe the stories you
post and shadows you cast, why not stick around and defend them???
To clarify my point on your ethics, if I make a post that says VAF sells
Sony Plasma, and projection...there is nothing wrong with that as it may be
of interest to readers here and is informative. On the other hand, If I make
a post saying VAF sell Sony Plasma and Projection and if anyone gets a price
from Trevor Lees, contact VAF, it will be worth your while... that would
cross the line. You see the difference, while **BOTH OF THESE HYPOTHETICAL
POSTS ARE IN FACT COMPLETELY TRUE**, the second one is clearly aimed **at
you** and could be seen as unethical behaviour in this non commercial
newsgroup. This is 'kinda' the same as your repetitive claims that our well
regarded DC-X model can be 'fixed' with the capacitors you sell.
Again (from a post elsewhere), My apologies to the group for drawing you
further into Trevor's sales manipulations. As many of you are DC-X owners I
expect he is trying to leverage his sales against VAF's success.
Philip Vafiadis
VAF Research Pty Ltd
www.vaf.com.au
Robby
Philip & crew are in this business. I am a proud owner of VAF gear & may
well be upgrading to the signature series. Only 'cause I can afford to &
lets face it you can't take it with you. My son can't wait because he has a
set of DC-2s and wants to get onto my DC-Xs, DC-7s, DC-6 & DC-S sub.
I was around his house the other night & we played U571, plenty of base via
the depth charges, and I was really surprised the guts these 'little'
speakers have.
Robby
--
Take it easy....but take it!!!!
"Dennistraeger" <dennis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20010517065808...@ng-fs1.aol.com...
Robby
from thinking that in purchasing VAF products they have made a wise
decision.
As a proud owner of VAF products I know that my decision, made after
checking around for about 18 months, was wise indeed. Product quality and
service from all at VAF is excellent.
Robby
--
Take it easy....but take it!!!!
"Trevor Lees" <trev...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:Lj_M6.2167$25....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
Johnny
<trev...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>The vast low end majority,and some expensive, speakers have similar
>crossovers.6db per octave no woofer coil .........maybe their approach might
>be 'new' but I doubt it.....woofer rolloff without components in very
>'old' idea and been tried by quite a few company's (some English speakers
>come to mind)and including one model of mine in 1988.then previously in
>1971.......cheers Trevor Lees
EPOS do it too!
Trevor Lees
sound the DC X's have and some blame their amps or receivers......to state a
capacitor is only there to stop the DC is stating the obvious............
the fact that you disregard all quality components eg caps as possibly
making the speaker sound better is just so ridiculous ....the cheap caps
used can be replaced by quite a few better sounding caps and the resistor
can be too.Customers have done this and been pleased with the improved
results,to disregard the components as' snake oil' is to disregard the
customers who purchase such...maybe it's 'you get better caps and resitors
when you spend more,on a dearer model mentality'or maybe worse,you have
never heard or tested such,..I fail that test as the truth is the truth and
emotional comments are not what I'm into
PS their is no substitute for quality .FULL STOP.
cheers,
Trevor Lees
"VAF Research" <phi...@vaf.com.au> wrote in message
news:9e23rs$9cc$1...@pinah.connect.com.au...
Philip Vafiadis
so. I expect again, your intention is to cast just enough 'shadow' over
things to confuse some readers.
These 'tricks' you play with words are getting tiresome. You have
*INCORRECTLY* asserted that VAF do not value good quality components in our
designs. I do *NOT* disregard them, and I have *SPECIFICALLY* maintained
that high quality components are an essential part of a good speaker, and I
have indicated on many occasions that we use high quality components in all
our designs.....
*SPECIFICALLY* Trevor, what I have held to on the issue of capacitors, or
*ANY OTHER* component for that matter, is that the superiority of one
component over another must be verifiable.....i.e., there must be a benefit
if we are going to ask our customers to pay more...i.e. quality does *NOT*
always equate to price.
Back to your questionable ethics, you have a commercial interest in selling
your expensive capacitors. Targeting what I expect is one of the most
popular loudspeakers in this newsgroup (our VAF DC-X) and saying you can
'fix' it with an expensive and unnecessary component that *YOU SELL* has
crossed a 'line' on 2 counts,
1) It shows a lack of respect for the participants in this newsgroup and, I
presume from your comments and behaviour, that you see the readers and
participants here as 'suckers' to be 'milked'.
2) You are a commercial competitor with a commercial self interest. There
should be no place for your sales minded attacks on competitor products in
this non-commercial forum. Your simple COMM FS messages are one thing, they
express nothing more than a simple offer and price. Evasive attacks are
another thing altogether.....
Again (3rd time), My apologies to the group for drawing you
further into Trevor's sales manipulations. As many of you are DC-X owners I
expect he is trying to leverage his sales against VAF's success.
Kind regards
Philip Vafiadis (from Home) office is phi...@vaf.com.au
VAF Research Pty Ltd
www.vaf.com.au
Trevor Lees <trev...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:3QbN6.2313$25....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
Ball
says...
hovland do have their merits, the majority of audiophiles/speakers
designer on this planet believes so, to say they are all snake oil is
trying to suggest 99% of those are imagining things. If you have produce
a good sounding product without using these expensive componenet, then's
congradulation and good for you. BUt most if not all other highend
speaker manufacturers still use a more "down to earth" approach, companys
like Wilson/Dynaudio/Proac/Whatmough etc all use these so called "snake
oil" caps, i guess they havn't found the "break-through" yet. =(
It is good to have confident in your product, but in some of your post
you are doing the exact same thing that u are accusing others of. ie,
saying your R&D are best and other are just crap and the constant
meantion of Trevor's cash register =)
I feel that a company with your status should not worry too much about
what's said in this NG, u have the largest support group of a Aussie
product in here anyway, let the customer do the talking.
Regards,
Ben
Philip Vafiadis
> YOu are taking things too seriously, phil.
Guilty.....I do tend to take the things I do seriously.
Exotic caps like solen and
> hovland do have their merits, the majority of audiophiles/speakers
> designer on this planet believes so, to say they are all snake oil is
> trying to suggest 99% of those are imagining things.
I am not saying (or have *NEVER SAID*) that it is 'snake oil', those were
Trevor Lees words. My contention is that he keeps attacking our DC-X with
his capacitor 'sales pitch' and the DC-X is particularly insensitive to
capacitor choice. Even with this in mind, the DC-X was still specified with
a close tolerance, high voltage, metallised Polypropylene
capacitor.....hardly the cheap rubbish that Trevor suggests it is.
If you have produce
> a good sounding product without using these expensive componenet, then's
> congradulation and good for you. BUt most if not all other highend
> speaker manufacturers still use a more "down to earth" approach, companys
> like Wilson/Dynaudio/Proac/Whatmough etc all use these so called "snake
> oil" caps, i guess they havn't found the "break-through" yet. =(
> It is good to have confident in your product, but in some of your post
> you are doing the exact same thing that u are accusing others of. ie,
> saying your R&D are best and other are just crap and the constant
> meantion of Trevor's cash register =)
It is a subtle distinction that I have tried to make....if a company
specifically sells on the technical performance of their products, that
company's technical capabilities (or lack of them) is specifically relevant.
I believe it is clear misrepresentation if a company's performance claims
are not anything other than fictitious or speculative. For companies selling
on construction or appearance or human interface etc, I agree such things
are not relevant, and I have not claimed them to be. The repeated reference
to Trevor's cash register or the Mercedes, Porsche & Masserati that he used
to own were a mechanism to focus clearly on his commercial intent, and as I
was defending VAF from his unethical attacks, it seemed appropriate to
clarify his commercial intent....i.e. he is not just a guy interested in
audio giving his opinions, his attacks on VAF products were clearly aimed at
enhancing his own income and should be viewed by readers in that context.
> I feel that a company with your status should not worry too much about
> what's said in this NG, u have the largest support group of a Aussie
> product in here anyway, let the customer do the talking.
Agreed,..... thankfully VAF has many friends here....It's just that some
issues 'get under my skin'.
Ben, it is not my intention to just create 'noise' in this newsgroup. Your
post is the first one to suggest I have the 'volume' set too high, however I
expect in the 'big picture' of things you are probably right....I will leave
annoying 'little fish' like Trevor Lees to the rest of the newsgroup for
now.
Johnny
<phi...@camtech.net.au> wrote:
Well Said!
I don't know of many people besides Trevor Less claiming obvious
differences between different brands of polypropylene film capacitors.
(Obviously not including other companies who are marketing similar
product).
Its easy to say "Try my caps, and you will hear the difference" I
suppose thats what Trever Less is counting on, as thats sufficient to
sell the product.
To me it appears that most claims of harsh sound from HiFi speakers
are more likely to do with recordings that were not intented to be
played on speakers with flat response. Many manufactureres seem to
shelve the treble down by a couple of dB or more, and sometimes use
tweeters that roll off in the top octave. As Phillip suggested once
before to someone on this news group, the treble can easily be toned
down slightly by replacing one of the bi-wire links with a 0.5 to 1.0
ohm resistor. This mod is probably the first thing to try before
considering capacitor change. As Phillip said, the original parts are
already very high quality.
regards,
Johnny.
Adam F
They look suspiciously similar (and both look similar to the tweeter in the
new monitor audio gold reference series), and all speakers mentioned have
garnered v nice reviews.
Of course these series' floorstanding models cost from about 3x to ten times
the price of DC-Xs...
Adam F
"Johnny" <john...@one.net.au.NOSPAM> wrote in message
news:3b04dff1...@news.one.net.au...
Trevor Wilson
"Ball" <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1570736b7b5eb0b89896ec@news-server...
> YOu are taking things too seriously, phil. Exotic caps like solen and
> hovland do have their merits,
**Throwing Solen and Hovalnd into the same basket, is slightly misleading,
Ben. Solen caps cost around double that of El CheapoT types. Further, Solen
caps are well made, enjoy excellent reliability and a excellently specc'd.
Hovalnd, on the other hand are around 20 to 30 TIMES (or more) the price of
Solens! Muse on that, for awhile. 20 TIMES the price. I can forgive a cap,
which is manufactured in a First World nation, costing double that of a
similar product, manufactured in a developing nation, or one whose labour
costs are much lower than typical Western nations. To ask consumers to pay
extraordinary prices, whilst offering no hard evidence attesting to their
superiority, is crazy.
the majority of audiophiles/speakers
> designer on this planet believes so, to say they are all snake oil is
> trying to suggest 99% of those are imagining things. If you have produce
> a good sounding product without using these expensive componenet, then's
> congradulation and good for you. BUt most if not all other highend
> speaker manufacturers still use a more "down to earth" approach, companys
> like Wilson/Dynaudio/Proac/Whatmough etc all use these so called "snake
> oil" caps, i guess they havn't found the "break-through" yet. =(
**Let's discuss these brands, shall we?
Wilson speakers are designed for boutique markets. In the past, their design
and construction was performed by someone who clearly had no idea of how to
properly engineer a loudspeaker. I've worked on Wilson products (including
the WAMMs, WATs and Puppies). NONE have impressed me WRt to their care and
attention to detail. Sonically, they were quite reasonable, however, I put
that down to the Thomas Edison' style of design. That is this: "We'll
buggerise around with all sorts of exotic parts, until something sounds
good." "We certainly won't use any kind of mathematics, computer aided
deisgn, or good common sense in our designs."
Dynaudio build some of the best drivers, in the world. They also build some
of the best engineered and thoroughly thought out system designs, ever made.
I've never opened a pair up, but I doubt that they use Hovalnd caps, in any
of their systems. They may well use Solens, thanks to the high quality and
tight tolerances of these reasonably priced components.
Proac, to the best of my knowledge (I've opened a few up) do not use Hovland
caps. I have seen Solens in some of their designs, however.
Whatmough, to the best of my knowledge, use Hovalnds in one of their
designs. The others, presumably, use more sanely priced components. It seems
that the one design, which uses Hovland's obscenely priced capacitors, is a
'boutique' product, aimed at a specific parket segment, which places great
store in the BRAND of a component, rather than it's inherent cost/benefit
ratio.
> It is good to have confident in your product, but in some of your post
> you are doing the exact same thing that u are accusing others of. ie,
> saying your R&D are best and other are just crap and the constant
> meantion of Trevor's cash register =)
**It's difficult to get away from the noise of Trevor Lees' cash register.
Almost none of his posts are in any way non-commercial in nature. It is
entirely appropriate to comment on Trevor's cash register.
> I feel that a company with your status should not worry too much about
> what's said in this NG, u have the largest support group of a Aussie
> product in here anyway, let the customer do the talking.
**I agree. Let's educate the customer to do good, honest comparisons, with
various components.
--
Trevor Wilson
http://www.rageaudio.com.au
Ball
tre...@rageaudio.com.au says...
>
> "Ball" <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.1570736b7b5eb0b89896ec@news-server...
> > YOu are taking things too seriously, phil. Exotic caps like solen and
> > hovland do have their merits,
>
> **Throwing Solen and Hovalnd into the same basket, is slightly misleading,
> Ben. Solen caps cost around double that of El CheapoT types. Further, Solen
> caps are well made, enjoy excellent reliability and a excellently specc'd.
> Hovalnd, on the other hand are around 20 to 30 TIMES (or more) the price of
> Solens! Muse on that, for awhile. 20 TIMES the price. I can forgive a cap,
> which is manufactured in a First World nation, costing double that of a
> similar product, manufactured in a developing nation, or one whose labour
> costs are much lower than typical Western nations. To ask consumers to pay
> extraordinary prices, whilst offering no hard evidence attesting to their
> superiority, is crazy.
> **Let's discuss these brands, shall we?
> Wilson speakers are designed for boutique markets. In the past, their design
> and construction was performed by someone who clearly had no idea of how to
> properly engineer a loudspeaker. I've worked on Wilson products (including
> the WAMMs, WATs and Puppies). NONE have impressed me WRt to their care and
> attention to detail. Sonically, they were quite reasonable, however, I put
> that down to the Thomas Edison' style of design. That is this: "We'll
> buggerise around with all sorts of exotic parts, until something sounds
> good." "We certainly won't use any kind of mathematics, computer aided
> deisgn, or good common sense in our designs."
I am sorry to hear that you didn't like the Wilsons, I can see how a SET
lover doesn't like Wilsons, but u have always been going for the
"accurate" approach and critise a lot of tube gear users here, if you
didn't find the wilson accurate, i don;t know what is.
>
> Dynaudio build some of the best drivers, in the world. They also build some
> of the best engineered and thoroughly thought out system designs, ever made.
> I've never opened a pair up, but I doubt that they use Hovalnd caps, in any
> of their systems. They may well use Solens, thanks to the high quality and
> tight tolerances of these reasonably priced components.
Dyaudio is just as insanely priced in Australia, the HT-orientated
audience series aside, the little 2 way floorstander contour 1.8 sell for
about 5k, last time i check the wilson CUB were about 6-7k, the wilson is
much more accurate/dynamic, and the build quality is much better than the
Dyna (the 1.8 were by no mean poorly built however).
>
> Proac, to the best of my knowledge (I've opened a few up) do not use Hovland
> caps. I have seen Solens in some of their designs, however.
YOu are right, Stuart Tyler would never use Hovland caps (i don;t know
about the response 4/5 and the new future series though) but i opened up
a 2.5 recently and they use iron core inductor and some Tandy type cable,
they sell for around 9 grant in here.
>
> Whatmough, to the best of my knowledge, use Hovalnds in one of their
> designs. The others, presumably, use more sanely priced components. It seems
> that the one design, which uses Hovland's obscenely priced capacitors, is a
> 'boutique' product, aimed at a specific parket segment, which places great
When i named the brands, I was trying to give example of what many
regards as the best avaiable, that's why price was not a consideration,
given the state of the Aussie dollar, it's not very fair to judge them by
their price as i am sure Proac never intend to sell the little 2.5 for 9k
here.
Ben
Trevor Lees
Ball your reasoned approach can never agree with Trevor
Wilson or Philip V......I was once the importer of Wilson audio products(
for a very long time) and although I did not 'love' all the designs no one
could convince me Dave Wilson did not do good homework..............The
Watts and Puppies where great speakers and still are in the 6's.....When
Trevor Wilson ( not Trevor Wisdom)says Solen are great caps and Hovlands not
worth the money.it simply means he has not heard a hovland cap.I am not the
only importer of hovland caps and I do use a lot of solens when needed..but
they fall far short of the Hovlands in sonics (as I and Colin Whatmough both
agree)...maybe the Hovlands being not sent to SA or NSW for audition means
they cannot be reviewed favourably there...but is life that simple......
Cheers,
Trevor Lees
"Ball" <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.157110f9d8ef41cc9896ed@news-server...
Trevor Wilson
> Dear Group,.
> Ball your reasoned approach can never agree with Trevor
> Wilson or Philip V......I was once the importer of Wilson audio products(
> for a very long time) and although I did not 'love' all the designs no one
> could convince me Dave Wilson did not do good homework
**How about a 0.3 Ohm dip, at the crossover point, of the WATTs? You call
that competent design? I don't.
..............The
> Watts and Puppies where great speakers and still are in the 6's.....When
> Trevor Wilson ( not Trevor Wisdom)says Solen are great caps and Hovlands
not
> worth the money.it simply means he has not heard a hovland cap.
**No, I just asked (and always have asked) for PROOF of your claims. The
Hovland caps are between 20 and 30 times the cost of Solens. For such an
extraordinary amount of money, extraordinary proof is required. That does
not mean informal tests, with resistor changes, in one pair of speakers.
That means an IDENTICAL cap change, with no other changes and a double blind
trial. Until that is done, your comments must be viewed as suspect. In your
modifications of VAF speakers, you have admitted that you change both
resistors and caps (AND VALUE), thus altering the fundamental crossover
behaviour. Of course they will sound different, under such conditions.
I am not the
> only importer of hovland caps and I do use a lot of solens when
needed..but
> they fall far short of the Hovlands in sonics (as I and Colin Whatmough
both
> agree)...maybe the Hovlands being not sent to SA or NSW for audition means
> they cannot be reviewed favourably there...but is life that simple......
**I have no idea what the hell you mean here. Nevertheless, for the record,
I can fit Hovland caps to any speaker, as well. I simply advise my customers
that there are other, less expensive, more significant upgrades. Better, I
have solid measurements, to back up those upgrades. I cannot measure any
changes when Hovland caps are fitted. Can you?
Trevor Wilson
**Please re-read what I typed. Some Wilsons are respectable sounding product
s. They are incompetently designed, that's all. For the price, I expect a
much more professional approach to design. The original Wilson WATT enjoyed
an impedance dip, of 0.3 Ohms (Not a misprint), at it's crossover point.
Elsewhere, the impedance varied from around 4 Ohms to 8 Ohms. This suggest a
cavalier approach to crossver design. Worse, it is clear that these speakers
were never measured, after construction, to see what effects they might have
on the various amplifiers, which may be conected to them. After opening up a
pair of WAMMs, I was horrified at the amateurish construction qualities, of
the crossover and wiring. Certainly for a (then) US$75,000.00 pair of
loudspeakers, such poor workmanship was utterly unnacceptable. I've seen
better in $1,000.00 B&Ws. Sonically, the WAMMs and WATTs, were OK, when
partnered with suitable amplification. The Puppies, on the other hand, were
rather ordinary.
I can see how a SET
> lover doesn't like Wilsons, but u have always been going for the
> "accurate" approach and critise a lot of tube gear users here, if you
> didn't find the wilson accurate, i don;t know what is.
**I criticise the Wilsons, for their poor build quality and amateurish
design. Sonically, they were acceptable (but I've heard much better, for
much less money).
>
> >
> > Dynaudio build some of the best drivers, in the world. They also build
some
> > of the best engineered and thoroughly thought out system designs, ever
made.
> > I've never opened a pair up, but I doubt that they use Hovalnd caps, in
any
> > of their systems. They may well use Solens, thanks to the high quality
and
> > tight tolerances of these reasonably priced components.
>
> Dyaudio is just as insanely priced in Australia, the HT-orientated
> audience series aside, the little 2 way floorstander contour 1.8 sell for
> about 5k, last time i check the wilson CUB were about 6-7k, the wilson is
> much more accurate/dynamic, and the build quality is much better than the
> Dyna (the 1.8 were by no mean poorly built however).
**My comments related to the unlikelihood that Dynaudio used Hovalnd caps
and your suggestion that Hovalnds and Solen should dumped together. Hovlands
are between 20 and 30 times the price of the Solens. Would you (say) place a
Sony min system, in the same basket as a Mark Levinson? I doubt it. Let's
treat the Hovlands as an issue all on their own. They are MUCH more
expensivce than any other cap. Are they worth 20 to 30 times the price of
Solens? I doubt it.
>
> >
> > Proac, to the best of my knowledge (I've opened a few up) do not use
Hovland
> > caps. I have seen Solens in some of their designs, however.
>
> YOu are right, Stuart Tyler would never use Hovland caps (i don;t know
> about the response 4/5 and the new future series though) but i opened up
> a 2.5 recently and they use iron core inductor and some Tandy type cable,
> they sell for around 9 grant in here.
>
> >
> > Whatmough, to the best of my knowledge, use Hovalnds in one of their
> > designs. The others, presumably, use more sanely priced components. It
seems
> > that the one design, which uses Hovland's obscenely priced capacitors,
is a
> > 'boutique' product, aimed at a specific parket segment, which places
great
>
> When i named the brands, I was trying to give example of what many
> regards as the best avaiable, that's why price was not a consideration,
> given the state of the Aussie dollar, it's not very fair to judge them by
> their price as i am sure Proac never intend to sell the little 2.5 for 9k
> here.
**It is entirely reasonable to judge Hovlands by their price. Regardless of
where they are purchased, they cost more than 20 times the cost of Solens
and other quality film type caps. Given their extraordinary cost and the
extrvagent claims made by Trevor Lees, about their sound quality, I would
like to see an independantly monitored, double blind trial. Until that time,
Trevor Lees should modify his comments accordingly.
David E
what does that equate to in dollars and cents?
David E
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:L7DN6.63603$ff.4...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Ball" <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.157110f9d8ef41cc9896ed@news-server...
> > In article <s_rN6.62601$ff.4...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> > tre...@rageaudio.com.au says...
> > >
> > > "Ball" <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
> > > news:MPG.1570736b7b5eb0b89896ec@news-server...
Rohan Jackson
For a 5 microfarad cap that equates to about $50 Aussie pesos. IMHO they are
worth it, (depending upon the quality of your speaker drivers). I am
building my own speakers, using the Scan-Speak 18W/8545s and the "Revelator"
tweeter, using just one cap on the tweeter, and the Hovlands sound nothing
short of stunning. They make the tweeters sound so open and effortless. Cost
is always a consideration, but when you are only buying 2 of them and using
good drivers, it would be shortsighted not to consider them. If you are a
DIYer they are perfect.
I can't understand why more manufacturers don't use them. Some of their
speakers would cost maybe $100 more (remember they are buying in bulk). But
the sound difference would easily justify the price.
Note: that comment is directed at EVERY manufacturer, not just the ones who
post here.
"David E" <dav...@733t.com.org.edu> wrote in message
news:JeEN6.63646$ff.4...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
David E
That's around what I thought and I agree with your sentiments. If I am
paying $3K for a pair of speakers I wouldn't find it objectionable for the
manufacturer to add these to the price. But only as Phillip has said 'if it
makes a difference' it is pointless over engineering a product for no
discernible gain. I suppose people will soon be putting 'Hovland Inside'
stickers on their speaker cabinets alongside the 'Fear This' sticker. :-)
I suppose if someone was that confident about the caps upgrades they would
change one speaker and then do a blind a b listening test in mono (to negate
stereo channel separation) by spinning the balance dial right to left with
the unmodified speaker. If the customer was not happy or could see no
improvement then it should be removed and the old one put back. (my
electronics knowledge is not good but I assume this wouldn't have a negative
effect on the speaker) and be not charged a cent.
Cheers
David E
"Rohan Jackson" <rohja...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:aQEN6.2525$25....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
> David,
Philip Vafiadis
estimation that equates to around $3000 ......Just for the capacitors....for
that price Peter Stein could supply a reasonably decent ME amp in place of
the extra cost for the $0.20 of wound up plastic and metal that we call
capacitors.
I am interested in your observations though, and I do not take issue with
them. I would be happy to try to quantify them if you like.....Just send
down the tweeter and the 2 different capacitors/crossovers. For such an
obvious difference in perceived character, quantifying the cause should be
easy. Also I would be interested in the circuit diagram of the crossover. It
may be that there is an electrically resonant mechanism at work. Sometimes
things that should be non reactive prove to be reactive. For instance,
around 10 years ago when VAF started using double chamber SEAS tweeters we
measured an artefact that had slipped through SEAS un-noticed. It related to
the double chamber design and the 'duct' joining the cavities. SEAS
rectified it immediately of course. Other things that come to mind are the
electrical interaction between the tweeter voice coil and the crossover
feeding it. From looking at the crossover diagram, it may seem as though the
tweeter is just a simple load for the crossover.....however when you expand
the tweeter to a suitable electrical equivalent, the interactions are
sometimes more evident. Over many years I have measured everything I can get
my hands on, including most capacitors on the planet (yes that includes the
excellent Hovland capacitors) and have found there is a reason for
everything....in fact it was my own observations that were similar to yours
that inspired me to look deeper and learn what the mechanisms at work really
are.
Kind regards
Philip Vafiadis (from Home) office is phi...@vaf.com.au
VAF Research Pty Ltd
www.vaf.com.au
Rohan Jackson <rohja...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:aQEN6.2525$25....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
Ball
rohja...@optushome.com.au says...
would make the speaker 400 bucks more expensive, that's why no a lot of
manufacturer are using them, but yeah, as you say, it's a great upgrade
for consumers, since u can do much dumber things with 100 bucks.
Ben
Rohan Jackson
manufacturer would buy thousands.. Then why is it a 4 x increase to the
consumer. I know that is common in the speaker industry, but I am talking
about adding it INTO the cost of the speakers not ONTOP of it. This all
depends on crossover design though. If you had a crossover with 300
microfarads like the I-93 as Philip has said, then obviously it would not be
economical for that speaker, but for other simpler designs, why not?
"Ball" <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1571de39e887e33a9896ef@news-server...
Trevor Wilson
"David E" <dav...@733t.com.org.edu> wrote in message
news:JeEN6.63646$ff.4...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> what does that equate to in dollars and cents?
**Here are some approximate prices, for (all prices are equivalent US$):
Hovland-------------Solen----------Bennic----------ME
caps-----------Jaycar
1uF----US$15-------------US$1.4-------US$1.6---------US$0.9-------------US$1
.1
5uF----US$28-------------US$2.4-------US$2.8---------US$2.2-------------US$3
.3
10uF---US$44-------------US$3.8-------US$4.3---------US$3.9-------------US$5
.5
50uF---US$220------------US$12.9-----US$21.5--------US$16--------------US$27
.5
100uF--US$440-----------US$24.5------US$43----------US$32--------------US$55
Note1: The prices of Hovland, Solen and Bennic, are likely to be somewhat
higher, here in Australia, due to the normal costs of importing and
distribution. The costs listed, are simply US Dollar prices, transposed to
AUS$.
Note 2: Some caps are not available, in all brands, so values have been
added, to provide the required value. For instance: The largest Hovland cap,
is 10uF. The largest ME cap, is 50uF. The largest Jaycar cap is 10uF. The
largest Bennic cap is 16uF. The largest Solen cap is 330uF (and it's one BIG
muther).
Note 3: ME distribute a range of speaker building materials, including their
own range of caps, which are exact duplicates of Solens, both sonically and
mechanically.
Note 4:Hovland allow only minimal discounts to quantity users. Figure on an
approximate 30% discount, on the above prices, for large (>100 quantities).
For manufacturers, this discount is inadequate. Solen, for instance, sell
1uF caps, for US$0.77, in 500 off quantities. 10uF is US$2.07 in 500 off
quantities.Hovland's discounts, by comparison, clearly discourage quantity
buyers.
Christopher Lees
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
I basically have
no intention of continuous posting in this thread.
However on a few points here I feel a need to respond.
> > Wilson speakers are designed for boutique markets. In the past, their
>design and construction was performed by someone who clearly had no idea of how
>to properly engineer a loudspeaker.
David Wilson is an Engineer.
Apart from putting the speakers together..in what is probably some of
the best speaker cabinet work imaginable with good quality (albeit
expensive crossover parts), the drivers in their speakers are actually
rebuilt to requested specifications.
> I've worked on Wilson products
you are /were a service agent????
certainly never before 1998.
and what could you work on in them anyway??
1)Not the drivers, if they're faulty they go back to the factory.
2)Not the crossovers, they are all potted(sealed).
3)There are no user servicable parts inside the speakers.
>(including
>> > the WAMMs, WATs and Puppies). NONE have impressed me WRt to their care
>and
>> > attention to detail. Sonically, they were quite reasonable, however, I
>put
>> > that down to the Thomas Edison' style of design. That is this: "We'll
>> > buggerise around with all sorts of exotic parts, until something sounds
>> > good." "We certainly won't use any kind of mathematics, computer aided
>> > deisgn, or good common sense in our designs."
well I'm sorry to tell you this but despite what you think here you
are 100 % wrong (not a little.. but completely wrong).
1)the company does use mathematics, test gear etc.
and as has been written often about the company, on every part used,
David Wilson can
1)tell you the time,date of testing
2)what electronic tests were performed and the results
3)what blind listening tests were performed and the results.
4)(and as a result of 3) what other items were tested against them at
the same time and what equipment and cables and the postioning of the
speakers were in the room, and what the test results were for the
other items as well.
> I was horrified at the amateurish construction qualities, of
>the crossover and wiring.
As stated earlier the crossovers are potted...so you can't tell what
is in them..or how the crossovers are constructed. As for the cable
internally, it has varied from mit cable to other exotic high end
cables. Your only complaint here could be on the soldering.
then again if a customer has allowed you inside a speaker worth over
$100,000 that would have been (assuming he bought it new), personally
installed by David Wilson at the persons home, without phoning the
distibuter or the factory for free warranty service, then one could
(I.M.O.) reasonably assume that the speaker is second hand or has been
looked at before by unauthorised personnel.
> I've seen
>better in $1,000.00 B&Ws.
I'll ignore that for reasons stated above.
> Sonically, the WAMMs and WATTs, were OK, when
>partnered with suitable amplification. The Puppies, on the other hand, were
>rather ordinary.
Wilson's are not everyone's cup of tea,there are many more speakers
which give you more musicality(warmth) no matter what they are hooked
up to ( and personally my favourite in their lineup is the Maxim,
because I find them to be the most open sounding of the range)but one
thing they are is analytical. Probably the most analytical speakers
ever.
E.g. if you put on even one average cable, you basically ruin the
whole system.They are unforgiving of crap, more than any speaker I've
ever heard.They will expose problems in listening rooms.One could use
them as a piece of test gear.
actually thinking of them as more analytical than warmth
(coloured)sounding makes me think of them in the style of your
description of me amps.
>
>. Hovlands
>are between 20 and 30 times the price of the Solens.
I agree with you here, but my thought is this,
if a crossover in a speaker sounds good for a dollar that's great.
If it's possible to improve on it that's great.if not then don't
worry.
But if there is a better sounding sounding cap and even if it is
expensive and even if it is 50 times more expensive, what are we
looking at in times of cost.If the speaker sells for over $1000, even
if you throw in something that's 30 times the price or even 50 times
the price ..it's only another $50 cost to add in or ($100 counting
both channels), why not add a small margin increase, why does it have
to be a huge increase or a new speaker model.At four figure price
points a $50 or even $100 increase can be almost be completely
absorbed or just increase things by $100.
Trevor Wilson
"Christopher Lees" <trevlees(remove this anti spam section)@bigpond.net.au
(Christopher's bigpond advance)> wrote in message
news:3b078efd.5367263@news-server...
> On Sat, 19 May 2001 23:14:51 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>
> I basically have
> no intention of continuous posting in this thread.
> However on a few points here I feel a need to respond.
> > > Wilson speakers are designed for boutique markets. In the past, their
> >design and construction was performed by someone who clearly had no idea
of how
> >to properly engineer a loudspeaker.
> David Wilson is an Engineer.
**An engineer of WHAT? Certainly not electronics! If so, then please explain
the oft-measured impedance dip of 0.3 Ohms, with the early WATTs. ANY
competent loudspeaker designer will tell you that such an error in the
crossover, is the result of poor design. BTW: This impedance dip, has been
mentioned by many sources. Signifiantly, it occurs at the crossover point.
> Apart from putting the speakers together..in what is probably some of
> the best speaker cabinet work imaginable with good quality (albeit
> expensive crossover parts), the drivers in their speakers are actually
> rebuilt to requested specifications.
> > I've worked on Wilson products
> you are /were a service agent????
> certainly never before 1998.
**I poked around the insides of them, back in 1987.
**Perhaps he can explain the 0.3 Ohm impedance dip, at the crossover point
of the WATTs. I, for one, would be most interested in knowing why that
particular design choice was made. Certainly not to enhance the longevity of
the amplification used.
> > I was horrified at the amateurish construction qualities, of
> >the crossover and wiring.
> As stated earlier the crossovers are potted...so you can't tell what
> is in them..or how the crossovers are constructed.
**It was the general construction (including soldering) and layout of the
woring, inside the enclosures. Cabinet work was adequate. In the case of the
WATTs, cabinet work was excellent.
As for the cable
> internally, it has varied from mit cable to other exotic high end
> cables. Your only complaint here could be on the soldering.
**That was one of my complaints.
> then again if a customer has allowed you inside a speaker worth over
> $100,000 that would have been (assuming he bought it new), personally
> installed by David Wilson at the persons home, without phoning the
> distibuter or the factory for free warranty service, then one could
> (I.M.O.) reasonably assume that the speaker is second hand or has been
> looked at before by unauthorised personnel.
**It was at the official Hong Kong importer/distributor of Wilson products,
at the time.
> > I've seen
> >better in $1,000.00 B&Ws.
> I'll ignore that for reasons stated above.
> > Sonically, the WAMMs and WATTs, were OK, when
> >partnered with suitable amplification. The Puppies, on the other hand,
were
> >rather ordinary.
> Wilson's are not everyone's cup of tea,there are many more speakers
> which give you more musicality(warmth) no matter what they are hooked
> up to ( and personally my favourite in their lineup is the Maxim,
> because I find them to be the most open sounding of the range)but one
> thing they are is analytical. Probably the most analytical speakers
> ever.
> E.g. if you put on even one average cable, you basically ruin the
> whole system.They are unforgiving of crap, more than any speaker I've
> ever heard.They will expose problems in listening rooms.One could use
> them as a piece of test gear.
> actually thinking of them as more analytical than warmth
> (coloured)sounding makes me think of them in the style of your
> description of me amps.
**Given that ME amplifiers are one of the very small number of amps, which
could actually cope with a 0.3 Ohm dip, that is an interesting point. BTW: I
never said that I did not like the sound of Wilson speakers. On the
contrary, some, I have heard, are excellent. Way too expensive, though. No,
I jusdge them according to their design process. A 0.3 Ohm impedance dip, is
a clear sign of poor design and measurement techniques.
> >
> >. Hovlands
> >are between 20 and 30 times the price of the Solens.
> I agree with you here, but my thought is this,
> if a crossover in a speaker sounds good for a dollar that's great.
> If it's possible to improve on it that's great.if not then don't
> worry.
**I agree. My argument has been that Trevor changes, both the VALUE of the
cap and the value of the resistor, in the VAF DC-X speakers. Hardly an
appropriate comparison!
> But if there is a better sounding sounding cap and even if it is
> expensive and even if it is 50 times more expensive, what are we
> looking at in times of cost.If the speaker sells for over $1000, even
> if you throw in something that's 30 times the price or even 50 times
> the price ..it's only another $50 cost to add in or ($100 counting
> both channels), why not add a small margin increase, why does it have
> to be a huge increase or a new speaker model.At four figure price
> points a $50 or even $100 increase can be almost be completely
> absorbed or just increase things by $100.
**Let's examine those numbers, in the light of (say) a Common B&W model. The
particular (a 600 series) uses 3 caps, in each enclosure. 3uF, 6.8uF and
10uF. That adds up to around US$200.00 per pair! For a AUS$1,200.00 speaker
system, that is an unreasonable impost. Fully 1/3rd of the cost of the
speaker, is taken by caps. Even if B&W were to install them, at the time of
manufacture, the final cost would blow out to around AUS$2,500.00 per pair!
Yikes! Retro-fitting, after manufacture, is certainly more economical. Such
is the nature of manufacturing and distribution.
Ball
>>model. The
>>particular (a 600 series) uses 3 caps, in each enclosure. 3uF, 6.8uF
>>and
>>10uF. That adds up to around US$200.00 per pair! For a AUS$1,200.00
>>speaker
>>system, that is an unreasonable impost. Fully 1/3rd of the cost of the
>>speaker, is taken by caps. Even if B&W were to install them, at the
>>time of
>>manufacture, the final cost would blow out to around AUS$2,500.00 per
>>pair!
>>Yikes! Retro-fitting, after manufacture, is certainly more economical.
>>Such
>>is the nature of manufacturing and distribution.
NOt a very good analogy, the 600 series is the lowest range in the B&W
series aim at HT user, i wouldn't even bother to put solen caps in them.
Beside, how much of that 1200 aussie dollar goes into the cost of the
speaker anyway? Similar priced Australian made speakers however, would
enjoy a much better cost/retail ratio.
Regards,
Ben
Trevor Wilson
>
>
> NOt a very good analogy, the 600 series is the lowest range in the B&W
**Yes, it is. It is a perfect analogy. As the DC-X is not top of the range,
in the VAF range, neither is the B&W 600 series. Ben, I chose my analogy
with care.
> series aim at HT user, i wouldn't even bother to put solen caps in them.
> Beside, how much of that 1200 aussie dollar goes into the cost of the
> speaker anyway? Similar priced Australian made speakers however, would
> enjoy a much better cost/retail ratio.
**Sure. It would also push that speaker into another price bracket. One in
which the speaker may not survive. Manufacturers make choices, about their
products, which allow them to position their product, for maximum sales
(after all, that is the aim). Swapping from (say) a bipolar electrolytic
cap, involves a jump of typically 400%, in the cost of caps, alone. That is
a significant jump, at the manufacturing level. Substituting Hovlands, in
place of (say) Solens, invloves a jump of around 3000%, in the cost of caps!
Moreover, the performance difference between bipolar electrolytics and good
film caps, can be substantial. FAR more substantial than the (alleged)
differences between film caps and Hovlands. The cost/benefit ratio of
Hovland caps just does not add up.
None of this helps with any data, pertaining to the real or imagined
differences in Hovland, or any other caps. So far, neither Trevor Lees, nor
Hovland have provided any meaningful data, to prove their point/s.
Rohan Jackson
How about the fact that to many people's ears they actually sound a lot
better?
I don't care about measured results if they don't sound any good. I don't
listen to measurements. I have heard many a component that has measured well
and sounded TERRIBLE.
I think it's the "Snake Oil" which makes them sound so good! :-))))))
Rohan Jackson
which is what makes it fun.
Besides, I am a long way away from the sound I want in the speakers. As far
as I know there are no problems with the Revelator as apposed to the SEAS
tweeters. When you are buying drivers OEM why not have the best? Crossover
design is about compromises anyway. I can make a pair of speakers sound very
open, yet they might not have a solid centre image, and vice versa. I have
no doubt that you have spent many an hour perfecting yours to the way you
thing your speakers sound "right".
P.S. The Hovlands would probably cost you $2000 (at least 30~% off ) if
buying in bulk, but that is still a hell of a slug. For simpler designs it
might be more reasonable, where there is fewer capacitors.
"Philip Vafiadis" <phi...@camtech.net.au> wrote in message
news:c7GN6.1121$Ld4....@ozemail.com.au...
Trevor Wilson
>
> How about the fact that to many people's ears they actually sound a lot
> better?
**Provided those people have performed appropriate, double blind tests, then
good for them. The cost of Hovland caps, are so high, that they are not a
sane choice for any low(ish) cost loudspeaker. Nevertheless, the crux of
this issue, is several-fold:
1) Manufacturers cannot (mostly) justify the horrendous cost of the Hovland
caps, relative to their alleged performance cost/benefit ratio.
2) Trevor Lees alterations to the VAF DC-X, invloves altering the VALUE of
the cap and the resistor. Any perceived improvment, by using Hovland caps,
is therefore null and void. If the (SAME VALUE) cap was changed, without
resistor changes, then the comparison would be a valid one. Further, I doubt
Trevor has performed any double blind trials, in order to prove his point.
> I don't care about measured results if they don't sound any good. I don't
> listen to measurements. I have heard many a component that has measured
well
> and sounded TERRIBLE.
**I have never heard a component, which measures well and sounds bad. Of
course, the measurements, I consider important, may not be the conventional
ones.
Trevor Lees
as you are not a hovland importer the 30% applies to you as a customer,
however I buy at less than that and sell at approximately the US$ equal in
Australian dollars after GST and freight.
I think they are very expensive but Sonically they 'kill' Solensthat's why I
bother to import them cheers Trevor Lees
PSS The construction is amazing after looking at thew Solen caps there is no
comparison.....but we use both depending on cost.....but the differences are
larger than you can inagine.
cheers,
Trevor Lees
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:_rMN6.64671$ff.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Trevor Lees
In 1987 when you supposedly looked at Wilson Speakers
the only model was the Watts..!!
Start again.....I was the only person that I know of then with a pair of
Watts in Australia..!!and you never touched mine..!!
What next Trevor.........The DCx's only use one cap so the cost differnece
to do Hovlands is little about $80 for the Pair..!! unlike the B & W 600
speakers with 3 caps..............choose again..!!
How about this newsgroup funds the purchase of hovland caps from hovland for
VAF and Trevor Wilson then they can say at least they heard them....
cheers,
Trevor Lees
The .3 ohm dip was in the published impedance curve from WILSON..they
sounded best that way.later the impedance drop was made less.......
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:GtNN6.64899$ff.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Trevor Wilson
> Dear Trevor Wilson,
> In 1987 when you supposedly looked at Wilson Speakers
> the only model was the Watts..!!
**Well, you'd be wrong (again). I listened extensively, to both the WATTs
and the WAMMs, in Hong Kong, in that year. As I stated, I spent a great of
time with the, then Hong Kong importer, Kenneth Chan.
>
>
> Start again.....I was the only person that I know of then with a pair of
> Watts in Australia..!!and you never touched mine..!!
**I never suggested it was in Australia.
>
> What next Trevor.........The DCx's only use one cap so the cost differnece
> to do Hovlands is little about $80 for the Pair..!! unlike the B & W 600
> speakers with 3 caps..............choose again..!!
**I don't need to. VAF have made a commercial decision, with their choice of
components, for the DC-X. $80.00 at the manufacturing level, may make as
much as $400.00. by the time it reaches the consumer. More importantly, I
would be interested in any double blind trials, you have arranged with
modified and unmodified DC-X speakers. ASSUMING, of course, that you ONLY
change the capacitor, with THE SAME value Hovland. Now THAT would be an
interesting test.
>
> How about this newsgroup funds the purchase of hovland caps from hovland
for
> VAF and Trevor Wilson then they can say at least they heard them....
**AFAIK, VAF have already evaluated Hovland caps. As for myself, if a
customer requests Hovland caps, I will comply. Then I will have a chance to
listen.
BTW: What do you make of the 0.3 Ohm dip, in impedance of the WATTs, WRT the
competence of their designer?
Ian Mitchell
As a DC-x owner I'd certainly be interested in buying them if the veracity of
your claims re performance can be demonstrated. I'm sure there are a number of
DC-x owners in your neck of the woods, so why not
(a) donate (as a Hovland importer you're in the best position to fund the
experiment) a pair (same value) of caps.
(b) arrange a a/b test with existing DC-x owners of modified/unmodified speakers
to prove/disprove your claims.
Publish the results of the test in the ng, as they say, if you can build a
better mousetrap..... If your claims hold up to scrutiny, I'm sure you will more
than recoup the paltry expense incurred.
Damien Smith
claims...
Damien Smith
the 'audiophile' labels never sound 'harsh' on Vafs. Recordings with bad
dynamic range compression (most pop) are ruthlessly revealed.
remarkabel
I am willing to (conditionally) take the bait.
If you agree I will purchase from you suitable Hovland caps for my speakers,
install them and then do a comparison bothe listening and tested. I will write
a review of the changes (improvements or not) and publish them on this NG. If
there is no improvement you refund me (less postage and say 10% for the fact
that they are now used) and I will return them to you. If there is an
improvement I will let this NG know of the fact.
Fair? I'm willing to give it a go.
Cheers,
Mark
Angry Of Mayfair
want to hear a difference - you may perceive an improvement that doesn't
exist.
Also the comparison would have to be suspect due to the time it would
take between listening, before and after modification.
To be certain of accurate results, tests should be done double blind....
GB
<ps...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:fvfhgtoq08ocngo67...@4ax.com...
> Hmmm, this is now getting interesting.
>
> Can't see how Trevor could refuse this offer.
>
> If he sells you the caps at retail price then even taking off 10% if
you return
> them he still doesnt lose out.
Trevor
"remarkabel" <mark...@bit.net.au> wrote in message
news:3B08BD01...@bit.net.au...
> Trevor,
>
> I am willing to (conditionally) take the bait.
>
> If you agree I will purchase from you suitable Hovland caps for my
speakers,
> install them and then do a comparison bothe listening and tested. I will
write
> a review of the changes (improvements or not) and publish them on this NG.
If
> there is no improvement you refund me (less postage and say 10% for the
fact
> that they are now used) and I will return them to you. If there is an
> improvement I will let this NG know of the fact.
>
> Fair? I'm willing to give it a go.
You only need to buy one so you can compare it against the unmodified
speaker.
I wouldn't bet on Trevor Lees taking up the offer though, he has more to
lose than to gain if as expected, you can't tell the difference.
Trevor.
Henry Brown
of speakers to do an.A,B test.
But as usual I do not think we will hear from Trev Lees, He is good for hit
and run assaults only!
I do hope that if he turns this offer down we will never hear about his caps
again
Henry
<ps...@bigfoot.com> wrote in message
news:nkjhgt0erb7b7d4in...@4ax.com...
> Yes, two good points.
>
> Does anybody know if Trevor has responded to this challenge yet?
>
> A double blind test should definately be setup. Perhaps at Trevor Lees
shop. I
> would be interested in participating.
Angry Of Mayfair
"Henry Brown" <a_nu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b08da3c$0$27...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
> Well, if Remarkabel is in Perth, I will supply my DX-X's as the second
set
> of speakers to do an.A,B test.
>
> But as usual I do not think we will hear from Trev Lees, He is good
for hit
> and run assaults only!
>
> I do hope that if he turns this offer down we will never hear about
his caps
> again
>
> Henry
I agree, Trevor is full of b/s and I don't think he has improved his
reputation with this little assault!
His enthusiasm sometimes gets in the way of the truth.
If you ignore his b/s and all the hype at least his prices are good. .
It's probably better to deal with his brother Chris - I find him far
more down to earth...
GB
Dale
wilson phil v. etc..., and there are a lot of others out there with more
knowledge than me.
as a potential customer, trevor lees has instilled in me, from his
behaviour, a sense of miss-trust.
he may make a good point occasionally and provide another side to a story
and have far more experience and knowledge than me but i find it difficult
to think he would care about me as a customer.
i find it difficult to give people money that i feel misstrusting of. even
though he seems to have a good trading reputation.
further, i fear if i became a retailer of hifi goods then i may become
subject to side-ways attacks on my products.
this is not a nice feeling.
dale
-- remove NOSPAM when replying via email
"Angry Of Mayfair" <pla...@xspambigpond.com> wrote in message
news:Wq6O6.3360$hV3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Conrad Drake
> To be certain of accurate results, tests should be done double blind....
And over a suitable time for subtle differences to be heard
> Can't see how Trevor could refuse this offer.
The "out" is the type and condition of the associated equipment,
room and repotoire.
Personally, I'd like to do some traditional capacitor tests with
a suitabley complex signal and equipment I couldn't afford even
if HP/Tek could make it.
Robby
Probably carrying on with the business of manufacturing great products & not
trying to 'shit-can' anyone else!
Robby
--
Take it easy....but take it!!!!
"Dale" <daler...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3b08fe8a$0$25464$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
Trevor Lees
cheers Trevor Lees.oh I have done this before with a customer here in
Melbourne.
Trevor Lees
PS hit and run again.....
"Henry Brown" <a_nu...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3b08da3c$0$27...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
Trevor Lees
my caps for VAF's DCX's I have already done
before for a customer who was very happy.they are a good test since they use
cheap parts and only one of them so an AB test is easy to do..and people
have complained of them sounding harsh on some material/amps or what ever..
I only ever raised this matter as an example of a relatively cheap way of
gaining a large improvement in sound quality,I don't solely import these
caps.Colin Whatmough had been using them way before me and recommended them
and so had Osborn,I was amazed at how much difference they made .I still am.
cheers,
Trevor Lees.
PS If the truth or a good idea can be put down by a couple of people who
have never heard something on the basis of price then where are we......
White Van Speakers for everyone.
"Dale" <daler...@optusnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:3b08fe8a$0$25464$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
Adam F
it incites others to bursts of technical explanation and associated expert
opinion when they otherwise wouldn't bother (not that i blame them, they
have businesses to run!), and the curious such as myself reap the benefits.
:)
Adam F
"Robby" <ijr...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:Rt7O6.3421$hV3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Ball
pla...@xspambigpond.com says...
find him offensive, it is only AFTER you read the reply post by the
"gurus" like Phil and TW post that you would feel this way, maybe it's
just me, but i think both Phil and TW are taking things too seriously and
over exegerate the so called "damage" TL is doing to their business.
After sales upgrade is not a new thing, there are many third party
company in the USA making a living out of upgrading other people's
product(there are companies that makes electronic x'over for the B&W 800
series/power supply for DAC manufacturer like Perpetual and MSB etc) and
most of the time the OEM are fine with it and some even endors such
upgrade. TL is perfectly entitle to offer after sales upgrade to
customer, remember no one force you to buy a cap from TL. If you are a
Vaf owner, you have to decide yourself and justify the expense. All Vaf
can do in such situation is to void the customer warranty, instead of
building up this consiracy theory that whatever TL said is directly aim
at damaging Vaf reputation.
And please stop critising the price of the hovland caps, TW. There are
lots of snake oil in the audio industry and lots of things you can waste
your money on, sensible replacement of Hovland caps is certainly not one
of them. What about a 10000USD Audio note phono cartridge? or 5000USD
pair of Tara lab interconnect? How about 100000 AUD pair of Dynaudio
evidence. What about 350k and a 3 years wait for a Ferrari 360? 3k for a
Omega Speed master? How about those litte shinny stones called diamonds?
Are they insanely priced, yes! But can you say they are all scam and rip
off, i don't think so.
Regards,
Ben
Cam!
<trev...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
>The vast low end majority,and some expensive, speakers have similar
>crossovers.6db per octave no woofer coil .........maybe their approach might
>be 'new' but I doubt it.....woofer rolloff without components in very
>'old' idea and been tried by quite a few company's (some English speakers
>come to mind)and including one model of mine in 1988.then previously in
>1971.......cheers Trevor Lees
Having lurked and posted occaisionally in this newsgroup and others in
preparation to the purchase of HT and music hardware to suit the new
house, I've learned a couple of things from this news group:
1 Campsie HiFi are worth visiting (and having done so, I've found
them very helpful)
2 Some people listen with their eyes, usually glued to spec sheets
3 Trevor Lees, seems to be popular, yet I don't understand why - this
is confirmed by the post above.
As I'll be visiting Adelaide this weekend, I think I'll call in to VAF
- Trevors carrying on like a child is probably a great recommendation
for the speakers in question!
Cameron Harris
Patrick Scully
news:3b062290...@news.one.net.au...
> On Sat, 19 May 2001 09:59:21 +0930, "Philip Vafiadis"
> <phi...@camtech.net.au> wrote:
>
> Well Said!
> snip <
>
> To me it appears that most claims of harsh sound from HiFi speakers
> are more likely to do with recordings that were not intented to be
> played on speakers with flat response.
This is fair comment, it has long been my opinion that recordings as a
general rule are intended to sound "good" on an average music system, or
radio setup. To this end, they are monitored on inexpensive speakers, like
the Yamaha two-way that one finds in many studios. These recordings form the
vast majority of software that one finds to buy. Ergo, the vast majority
will not sound "as intended" on equipment of higher quality that that on
which it was mastered. In fact, it will sound terrible, but what the
listener will believe is that their "higher quality" equipment is not much
good. Will these "magic" capacitors change the above situation? Seems
illogical to me!
>As Phillip suggested once
> before to someone on this news group, the treble can easily be toned
> down slightly by replacing one of the bi-wire links with a 0.5 to 1.0
> ohm resistor.
And this is unlikely to seriously stuff up the design of the crossover
network.
>This mod is probably the first thing to try before
> considering capacitor change. As Phillip said, the original parts are
> already very high quality.
There are two points about this idea of modifying crossover networks, as I
see it. One is that I don't believe that anyone other than a very good
designer, possessed of very high quality measuring equipment and the ability
to use it, who is able to use a design program such as CALSOD 3.## to
integrate the skill with the measurements and come up with a properly
optimised network that has the minimum effect on the sound signal presented
to it. This belief is based on over 23 years designing crossover networks
the hard way, followed by 2 years designing them the "easy" way with the
help of Witold's excellent software.
The second is the continuous use of the same sort of hyperbole that used to
be reserved for the wine trade. Perhaps we should be thinking of laying down
some stocks of these fine artifacts for our children. For surely such a fine
device will appreciate in value, and is really too valuable to actually
consume (use), like those mystical vintages from Penfold, Armagnac and the
like. Can anyone give me some advice on what would be a good year to collect
and lay down for the future.
And while you are at it, please will you explain what these fine things
"sound" like. Simple soul that I am, I have always considered ANYTHING that
changes the original sound of the music as played at the recording session,
or at least as mixed by the producer, as being DISTORTION. For that is what
it is, distortion. The real task when designing those things that we put
between the recording and our ears is it ensure that they change the sound
as little as possible. So how does something that has a "sound" as these
magical devices achieve that objective?
NOT, in my opinion. So I would like one or two of the people waxing lyrical
about the "sound" of these devices, who "redesign" something that a person
has spent lots of their very expensive time, putting their professional
reputation as a designer on the line, to "please explain" how these things
have the desired MINIMAL effect on the signal that passes through them?
And then suggest how you can prove these claims, by actually modifying a
crossover network using your normal approach, and subjecting your handiwork
to an independent metrology session comparing the original to the modified
device. Then subjecting the modified speaker and your ability to recognise
your own "child" under properly controlled scientific method conditions - id
est a professionally administered DOUBLE BLIND test that conforms to best
practice research methodology.
And until one of you does this, can we have an end to this tiresome drivel,
and let some truth and light onto the topic.
> regards,
> Johnny.
Thanks, Johnny for the opportunity to join the thread. As you should know,
you are not IME one of those described above, to paraphrase the epiteth from
the Spanish clergy in America, "kill them all, the Devil will know his own".
--
regards
Patric Scully
The Sound Man
Trevor Wilson
> Funny enough, if you only read post from Trevor lees, you would never
> find him offensive, it is only AFTER you read the reply post by the
> "gurus" like Phil and TW post that you would feel this way, maybe it's
> just me, but i think both Phil and TW are taking things too seriously and
> over exegerate the so called "damage" TL is doing to their business.
**Not at all, Ben. Trevor Lees does no damage to my business and, I suspect,
has little impact on VAF's. In fact, the opposite is likely to be the case.
Whatever I may be, dishonest I am not. I am, however, disturbed by Trevor
Lees consistently sprouted lies and misinformation. Just as I attack every
instance of your misinformation, I also attack his. It's just that Trevor
Lees seems to supply more misinformation, more often than anyone else.
> After sales upgrade is not a new thing, there are many third party
> company in the USA making a living out of upgrading other people's
> product(there are companies that makes electronic x'over for the B&W 800
> series/power supply for DAC manufacturer like Perpetual and MSB etc) and
> most of the time the OEM are fine with it and some even endors such
> upgrade.
**Sure, I do the same, here in Sydeny. I regularly offer and perform
upgrades to all manner of products. I will even use Hovland caps, if clients
request them. However, I will ALWAYS offer my opinion as to the cost/benefit
performance of components chosen by my clients.
TL is perfectly entitle to offer after sales upgrade to
> customer, remember no one force you to buy a cap from TL. If you are a
> Vaf owner, you have to decide yourself and justify the expense.
**Sure. I wonder if Trevor Lees offers a FULL money back performance
gurantee, though. I do. The money back gurantee, however, is limited to MY
suggested upgrades. If a client wishes to take his/her own ideas about an
upgrade, then do not offer such a guarantee.
All Vaf
> can do in such situation is to void the customer warranty, instead of
> building up this consiracy theory that whatever TL said is directly aim
> at damaging Vaf reputation.
**I don't think there is any kind of a conspiracy. VAF provide full test and
performance graphs, for their products. Does Trevor provide such
information, for his upgrades? Does he fundamentally alter the frequency
response of the VAF DC-X, with his upgrades? He has already stated that he
alters the VALUE of the cap and resistor, in the DC-X crossover.
> And please stop critising the price of the hovland caps, TW.
**Why? To paraphrase Phil: Capacitors are just metal and plastic. Hardly
rocket science. They are simple components and simple to manufacture. For
what they are, they are ridiculously over-priced. For the cost of an upgrade
to the VAF i93's, I can supply an entire high end pre amp and power amp! The
Hovland caps are just too expensive, by a considerable margin.
There are
> lots of snake oil in the audio industry and lots of things you can waste
> your money on, sensible replacement of Hovland caps is certainly not one
> of them.
**And you know this, how? Please cite any double blind tests, you have been
invloved in to substantiate your claim.
> What about a 10000USD Audio note phono cartridge?
**What about it? Like all Audio Note products, I have seen, it is likely to
be too expensive. We're talking about capacitors and their alleged effects
on loudspeakers, without any evidence of proper test procedures.
or 5000USD
> pair of Tara lab interconnect?
**Matthew Bond has made a great deal of money from his over-priced cables. I
suspect that there are better cables, for less money. Still, we are
discussing Hovland caps. You have yet to make your case, in defence of them.
How about 100000 AUD pair of Dynaudio
> evidence. What about 350k and a 3 years wait for a Ferrari 360? 3k for a
> Omega Speed master?
**See above.
How about those litte shinny stones called diamonds?
> Are they insanely priced, yes! But can you say they are all scam and rip
> off, i don't think so.
**Well, I'm here to shatter your illusion. The diamond market has long been
a rip off, perpetrated by De Beer and their allies. Based on their scarcity,
diamonds should be priced at around 30% of their current prices. Deliberate
market controls have kept prices artificially high. Any person who buys a
diamond, for an investment, is, IMO, an idiot. That is not to say, however,
that diamonds don't have their place. Diamond is a most extraordinary
allotrope. By a dramtic margin, it is the stongest material known. If it can
ever artificially grown (and I think it will be), it may just make the
'ideal' loudspeaker cone material. Lighter, stonger and stiffer than any
known material, by at least an order of magnitude, it is an excellent
conductor of heat, to boot.
remarkabel
a separate box on the back of the speakers outside of the main enclosure.
Easy enough to build another crossover using TL's caps and A-B quite
simply. Having built my own speakers I have "learnt" to be pretty
ambivalent of changes. If the difference is there (for better or worse) I'm
confident I will recognise it, if no difference then I am confident I will
not be "sucked in" to believing one exists where it does not. (you'll have
to take my word for it though). The double blind bit could be difficult,
but not impossible to get around.
My motivation is twofold. Trevor has raved about the improvements these
caps will bring, if true it will improve my speakers for little extra
investment, if Trevor's claims do not stand up (at least with these drivers
in this design) we will have an independent "report" on what was found.
Cheers,
Mark
Ian Mitchell
facts for years blissfully unaware of the truth.
(to paraphrase the epiteth from the Spanish clergy in America, "kill them all,
the Devil will know his own".)
This oft quoted phrase has it's origins not in the Americas by the Spanish, but
in France in the 1300's. It took place during the Catholic Albigensian crusade
against the Cathar heresy, and is attributed to Simon de Montfort, although it
was likely uttered by Bishop Almaric (not sure of the correct spelling, and I'm
too lazy to look up the reference) his attending cleric. The cleric's response
when asked by the crusading soldiers how they would tell the difference between
the Catholic faithful and the Cathar heretics in the besieged stronghold was
"kill them all, GOD will recognise his own."
Patrick Scully wrote:
>
Henry Brown
Henry
"Trevor Lees" <trev...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:tk8O6.2924$25.1...@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
Ball
tre...@rageaudio.com.au says...
I like Peter's ice-cream more than Villa, should i do a thorogh analysis
on the milk content/flavor used etc?
I think Cameron Diaz would be a better shag than Catherine Cidar Jones,
should i do a double Blinded A/B test if i am given the chance to? Hell
no!!
I and a group of audiophile did do a Dblind A/B on a set of equipment
isolation cone, i always thought such gagdets were a total waste of money
before that test, but the difference was so obvious that 17 out of 23 ppl
could tell the diff, how do you explain that? HOw do you measure that?
You don't have to share my believes, but that doesn;t mean they are "mis-
information", just like I never doubt your believe in ME.
And what about those ever so subtly attack on Redgum and Elektra, huh?
I have tried redgum and never find power as a limiting factor, and wow,
Elecktra have a shorter company history than ME, you make it sounds like
they can go bloke and run with the consumer's money any minutes.
I find the ME 240 is over-priced too, the construction is above average
but the sound is nothing to be excited about, especaily when it's almost
2k.
Regards,
Ben
Robby
rooms and the service you get.
I went into many shops in and around Adelaide and did not find any
consistency re speakers, or any other gear as far as that goes. Fair enough
except that as soon as I mentioned VAF their lack of interest was obvious.
In a well known dealers shop in Adelaide CBD a young guy, (well young to me
I'm nearly 60, he was about 25), said straight out that he had been to VAF's
and was astounded at the neatness of the whole area and the quality of the
listening rooms. If you asked to hear a particular speaker with a particular
amp you were sure that what you asked for is what you got. He said that his
wife commented on how uncluttered the area was!
The dealer he works for has amps, speaker etc all over the listening room.
He said that to the unwary he could hook up just about anything and the
"general purchaser wouldn't know".
I asked what brand of speaker he had and, you guessed it, he had a set of
VAFs. He said that the retail trade in general are "not keen on VAFs"
because they see them as a "non source of profit".
He said that he did not know of any speaker, "in a comparable price range",
that would compete with VAF.
He said that if more people knew of VAFs complete package eg quality of
product and service the harder he would find it sell his dealers range at
the price they are advertised at.
Tell you what Cam, VAF must be doing something "right" because they have so
many people commenting about them on various web sites!!
Robby.
--
Take it easy....but take it!!!!
"Cam!" <cameron[@]harris[.]net> wrote in message
news:13bigtkeda8nvjagu...@4ax.com...
Trevor Wilson
**With a response like that? A petulant child, I would say. Be a man, Ben.
Put up an argument, or admit that you are wrong. You're an only child,
right?
> I like Peter's ice-cream more than Villa, should i do a thorogh analysis
> on the milk content/flavor used etc?
**Don't be silly. We're not talking about personal taste, here, we're
talking about proof of extraordinary claims.
> I think Cameron Diaz would be a better shag than Catherine Cidar Jones,
> should i do a double Blinded A/B test if i am given the chance to? Hell
> no!!
> I and a group of audiophile did do a Dblind A/B on a set of equipment
> isolation cone, i always thought such gagdets were a total waste of money
> before that test, but the difference was so obvious that 17 out of 23 ppl
> could tell the diff, how do you explain that? HOw do you measure that?
**I'd start by measuring the amount of vibration, in the cabinet and the
floor. A spectral analysis of the room, at the listnening position, would
probably show up differences and explain why you hear, what you hear. There
are no mysteries we cannot solve, Ben. It just takes time and dedication.
> You don't have to share my believes, but that doesn;t mean they are "mis-
> information", just like I never doubt your believe in ME.
**Nor should you. You SHOULD doubt my claims, however. I have been
consistent in my suggestions that consumers should listen to ME amplifiers,
in comparison to other amplifiers in their price range.
> And what about those ever so subtly attack on Redgum and Elektra, huh?
**Not at all. Redgum is a fine product. It is not a product I would choose,
however. That's my personal taste. Elektra is not a product, I have seen nor
heard. I have met Arthur, however. A charming and gracious person, with
obvious dedication to his product. I hope he succeeds. I look foreward to
listening and examining Elektra products.
> I have tried redgum and never find power as a limiting factor, and wow,
**Neither do I. I have never suggested otherwise.
> Elecktra have a shorter company history than ME, you make it sounds like
> they can go bloke and run with the consumer's money any minutes.
**Nonsense. Obviously, a company like ME, with such a long history at the
top of the high end audio business, is a good choice, for consumers, I have
no doubt that Elektra will, eventually, be successful. Don't forget this,
Ben: ME has been in business since 1976. A time when the Aussie Dollar
bought US$1.20 and Y220. That they have been successful, when selling Aussie
products has been really tough, is testimony to how good the product really
is. Selling Aussie products, in 2001, where the Aussie Dollar trades for
US0.50, is dead simple. I have been invloved with ME, since day one and have
seen a huge number of Aussie (and overseas) high fidelity products, fall by
the wayside during that period. As the Aussie Dollar ascends in value, we
will likely see more fail. I am NOT suggesting that Elektra will. I am
saying that it will be interesting to see how competitive Aussie companies
become, when the Aussie - US Dollar becomes less favourable.
> I find the ME 240 is over-priced too, the construction is above average
> but the sound is nothing to be excited about, especaily when it's almost
> 2k.
**And you are entitled to that opinion. Personally, I think that it is tough
to beat, at that price. It is certainly impossible to beat, with anything
not made in Australia. More interestingly, you should compare the ME550-II
to your Levinson. You may well be quite surprised.
Ball
tre...@rageaudio.com.au says...
>
> "Ball" <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.15745dbfe07addd19896f6@news-server...
> > In article <v%fO6.68319$ff.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> > tre...@rageaudio.com.au says...
> > Well, the "guru" is always right, who am I anyway?
>
> **With a response like that? A petulant child, I would say. Be a man, Ben.
> Put up an argument, or admit that you are wrong. You're an only child,
> right?
status/age/the-way-i-was-brought-up have anything to do with this
discussion? I find what you are implying extremely offensive.
Any why do i have to admit i am wrong? For standing up to my believe?
Instead of a butch of TW/VAF worshiper here who just blindly agree to
whatever said in favor of their product.
Here is what i believe in:
1)ME240 is over-priced for an intergrated, and don't give me that crap
about not making any money out of this little amp. All luxury product
manufacturers make most of their money from the lower range of model, if
you said the 850 was the case, i might believe u. If the 240 is not a
money earner, that either means "ME would not be able to survive for
long" or "the higher range of ME is extremely over-priced". In fact, the
240 is one of the biggest revenue maker i would say.
2)The 240 is nothing to be excited about, ME preamp are only average and
higher model power amp range from decent to excellent. All ME product are
well built and use quality componenets.
3)Vaf DC series are over-priced, even 600 dollars pair of Tannoy R1 is
better build than the DC2(this is fact, no point arguing). Especially
when you take into account the shipping/exchange rate disadvantage the
Tannoy face, and the fact that Vaf is supposingly saving fair bit of
money selling direct.
4)The use of spring clip is unacceptable no matter how you put it. I
don't care if the metal inside the clip is made from unobtainium. It's
attention to detail, is the massive heat sink on my amp necceary?
Probably not, but i like my equipment quality made.
5)Charging customer to have a proper finish instead of the cheap looking
stocking is unethical too. Let's put R&D aside and just look at component
cost, considering almost all other Aussie speaker manufacturer have $2000
approx. models that uses known-source drivers, more x'over component,
real wood veneer and better cabinet construction (the Osborn F4 for
example), again bear in mind the fact that Vaf sell direct. It makes me
wonder where the money went(of course you will say R&D, that's basically
the only thing left that you CAN say, Bose claim the same too remember?
And they do spend big money into R&D.)
6)The VAF subwoofer are well priced and well made, but still not as good
as the best availabe, the prices reflect this , and i am sure if Vaf make
a 4k sub, it will almost certainly be excellent. The best bang for the
buck i reckon are the satin version of I66 and I93, in fact, i recommend
anyone put the 66 top at their short list for speaker under 5k.
>
> **Don't be silly. We're not talking about personal taste, here, we're
> talking about proof of extraordinary claims.
>
No, it's not silly, taste and hearing are both human sensory systems. And
what's wrong with "personal taste" anyway? And being someone with no
commercial interest in this NG, i am entitle to my opinion. That's what
hifi is all about, isn't your personal taste towards ME the reason why
you are so ethuastic with it? I certianly hope so, or maybe it's more out
of commercial interest afterall?
> **I'd start by measuring the amount of vibration, in the cabinet and the
> floor. A spectral analysis of the room, at the listnening position, would
> probably show up differences and explain why you hear, what you hear. There
> are no mysteries we cannot solve, Ben. It just takes time and dedication.
Should i measure the time of the sunset, the alignment of the various
planets and the wind direction too? I trust my ear, not a multimeter or
CRO.
>
> > You don't have to share my believes, but that doesn;t mean they are "mis-
> > information", just like I never doubt your believe in ME.
>
> **Nor should you. You SHOULD doubt my claims, however. I have been
> consistent in my suggestions that consumers should listen to ME amplifiers,
> in comparison to other amplifiers in their price range.
>
> > And what about those ever so subtly attack on Redgum and Elektra, huh?
>
> **Not at all. Redgum is a fine product. It is not a product I would choose,
> however. That's my personal taste. Elektra is not a product, I have seen nor
> heard. I have met Arthur, however. A charming and gracious person, with
> obvious dedication to his product. I hope he succeeds. I look foreward to
> listening and examining Elektra products.
>
> > I have tried redgum and never find power as a limiting factor, and wow,
>
> **Neither do I. I have never suggested otherwise.
I recall you saying something like " As long as your speaker is not too
hard to drive, the redgum should work fine", what are you trying to
imply? Nice trick on playing on consumer's mind there.
>
>**And you are entitled to that opinion. Personally, I think that it is
>tough
>to beat, at that price. It is certainly impossible to beat, with
>anything
>not made in Australia. More interestingly, you should compare the ME550-
>II
>to your Levinson. You may well be quite surprised.
Umm, looks who is being silly, the 850 might stand a remote chance, the
550? You are dreaming.
Ben
Patrick Scully
news:3B09A183...@citec.com.au...
> Slightly ?? off-topic but indicates how we can carry around what we think
are
> facts for years blissfully unaware of the truth.
Two points, I have read it many times in the literature, attributed to the
Spanish clergy in America with the Conquistadors during the many massacres
of indigenous people who, having refused to be converted were killed as
heretics, but who had amongst them true converts among the indigenous
people. If you say that it is in fact to do with the Cathar heresy and the
Albigensian Crusade, I will accept that. But that particular period is full
of mistruths and fallacies, particularly the stories of the Priory de Sion
and Rennes le Chateau, and alleged descendency from J.C.
And yes, I know that the correct statement is that "... God will know his
own ..." which is why I said "to paraphrase". Not that it matters much, as
it was in the nature of a pisstake, given that in my opinion these
"high-enders" are in fact about the Devil's work :-))))
Rod LG
> In article <WnlO6.68675$ff.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> tre...@rageaudio.com.au says...
> >
> > "Ball" <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.15745dbfe07addd19896f6@news-server...
> > > In article <v%fO6.68319$ff.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> > > tre...@rageaudio.com.au says...
> > > Well, the "guru" is always right, who am I anyway?
> >
> 3)Vaf DC series are over-priced, even 600 dollars pair of Tannoy R1 is
> better build than the DC2(this is fact, no point arguing). Especially
> when you take into account the shipping/exchange rate disadvantage the
> Tannoy face, and the fact that Vaf is supposingly saving fair bit of
> money selling direct.
>
It would be of interest to me as a Tannoy user for many years to do some
sort of comparison. I have been listening to a pair of Saturn S8's for the
last six months, and currently have a pair of P-40's. Both do not seem to
have the top end of the DC-X's. The cabinet build of the S8's is poor in
comparison to VAF. The veneer appears to be plastic, not wood, and the S8's
use to be a similar price, but the AUS$ has killed that! I do like the
P-40's, but am not running them with my proper setup (Rane professional
stereo preamp, Marantz professional CD and JBL/QSC professional 450w/side
power)
I have said in this forum before that I find the DC-X's harsh, but have not
had the chance to do any side by side comparisons. That said, I do not think
I will have time in the near future due to work commitments. Has anyone out
there done any comparisons?
This is not a swipe at VAF DC-X, as I think it is a fine speaker, but it is
very difficult with the marketing and sales position the company takes to
adequately do comparisons.
Rod LG
Trevor Wilson
> In article <WnlO6.68675$ff.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> tre...@rageaudio.com.au says...
> >
> > "Ball" <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
> > news:MPG.15745dbfe07addd19896f6@news-server...
> > > In article <v%fO6.68319$ff.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
> > > tre...@rageaudio.com.au says...
> > > Well, the "guru" is always right, who am I anyway?
> >
> > **With a response like that? A petulant child, I would say. Be a man,
Ben.
> > Put up an argument, or admit that you are wrong. You're an only child,
> > right?
> For your information, I have a brother. And why is my family
> status/age/the-way-i-was-brought-up have anything to do with this
> discussion?
**Oh well, I guess I should stay away from pop-psychology.
> I find what you are implying extremely offensive.
**Then stop acting like a petulant child.
> Any why do i have to admit i am wrong?
**I provided you with TWO options:
1) Admit your error.
OR
2) Mount a credible argument (In this case, in favour of Trevor Lees use of
Hovland caps, in DC-X speakers)
> For standing up to my believe?
**Nope. If you want to defend your beliefs, though, you'd better provide
evidence, else admit that you don't have any and that you are operating on
specious principles.
> Instead of a butch of TW/VAF worshiper here who just blindly agree to
> whatever said in favor of their product.
**Not at all. Plenty of people dissagree with what I have to say. They are
entitled to that viewpoint, PROVIDED they have done a good, honest
comparison, with similarly priced products, in their own system.
> Here is what i believe in:
> 1)ME240 is over-priced for an intergrated, and don't give me that crap
> about not making any money out of this little amp. All luxury product
> manufacturers make most of their money from the lower range of model, if
> you said the 850 was the case, i might believe u. If the 240 is not a
> money earner, that either means "ME would not be able to survive for
> long" or "the higher range of ME is extremely over-priced". In fact, the
> 240 is one of the biggest revenue maker i would say.
**ME DO make a profit from the ME240. Before the last price rise (July 1st
2000), they did not. As for the ME240 being over-priced, perhaps you could
provide me with the name and model number/s of any products which sound
better. I would be interested in hearing them.
>
> 2)The 240 is nothing to be excited about, ME preamp are only average and
> higher model power amp range from decent to excellent. All ME product are
> well built and use quality componenets.
**Again, you are entitled to your opinion. I dissagree, of course. I have
yet to hear a better integrated amp, than the ME240, in it's price range. If
you know of any, please provide me with details. FYI: The ME14 preamp is
significantly better sounding, than the Mark Levinson 380S. I have now
performed 3 comparisons, with that particular product and all listeners (9)
agree. So, I guess if you imagine that the ME preamp is "only average", then
I would be very interested in knowing what is above average!
>
> 3)Vaf DC series are over-priced, even 600 dollars pair of Tannoy R1 is
> better build than the DC2(this is fact, no point arguing). Especially
> when you take into account the shipping/exchange rate disadvantage the
> Tannoy face, and the fact that Vaf is supposingly saving fair bit of
> money selling direct.
**I have not opened up either speaker, nor have I listened to them. I have
listened to the DC-X, i66 and i93. These VAF products, IMO, represent
excellent value for money. Then again, I have yet to hear a Tannoy, I like.
Personal taste, I guess. I just don't like Tannoy speakers.
>
> 4)The use of spring clip is unacceptable no matter how you put it. I
> don't care if the metal inside the clip is made from unobtainium. It's
> attention to detail, is the massive heat sink on my amp necceary?
> Probably not, but i like my equipment quality made.
**VAF have made a choice WRT spring clips, which suits them. You may be
interested to know several facts, about binding posts and spring clips,
however. Many years ago, I was service manager for Marantz (Aust) P/L. In
those days, I serviced some big ampliers. One was the model Marantz 2500.
This product was capable of 350 Watts per channel into 4 Ohms. I ran the amp
for about an hour into 4 ohm loads, to see how it could manage. No problems.
Well, except for the dummy loads. The manufacturer had chosen to SOLDER the
connecting wires to the dummy load resistors (2 X 250 Watt Dales). Anyway,
after the solder melted and redered the test complete, I shecked various
aspects of the amp. One of the things I checked were the speaker
connections. These were spring clips and registered no perceptible
temperature rise. Moral: Good quality spring clips provide an excellent
connection. I don't know what sort of spring clips are used in the DC-Xs,
but I imagine they're decent. On the flip side, most binding posts, on
loudspeakers will work loose, over time. One of my clients 'phones me up,
every six months or so, complaining that his sound is not quite right. Sure
enough, a quick tighten of the binding posts, usually sorts the problem out.
I'll probably swap him over to banana plugs next time.
>
> 5)Charging customer to have a proper finish instead of the cheap looking
> stocking is unethical too.
**Nonsense. It is a commercial decision. Many speaker companies (Duntech,
Aaron, Audio Definition, Equinox, etc) have made precisely the same choice,
inorder to provide the consumer with the best possible sound quality, at the
lowest possible price. That is a perfectly valid decision, by the
manufacturer.
Let's put R&D aside and just look at component
> cost, considering almost all other Aussie speaker manufacturer have $2000
> approx. models that uses known-source drivers, more x'over component,
> real wood veneer and better cabinet construction (the Osborn F4 for
> example), again bear in mind the fact that Vaf sell direct. It makes me
> wonder where the money went(of course you will say R&D, that's basically
> the only thing left that you CAN say, Bose claim the same too remember?
> And they do spend big money into R&D.)
**I have not done a comparison with VAF and other Aussie built products, of
similar cost. I would expect VAF to stack quite well (personal taste, aside,
of course).
>
> 6)The VAF subwoofer are well priced and well made, but still not as good
> as the best availabe, the prices reflect this , and i am sure if Vaf make
> a 4k sub, it will almost certainly be excellent. The best bang for the
> buck i reckon are the satin version of I66 and I93, in fact, i recommend
> anyone put the 66 top at their short list for speaker under 5k.
**Agreed.
>
> >
> > **Don't be silly. We're not talking about personal taste, here, we're
> > talking about proof of extraordinary claims.
> >
>
> No, it's not silly, taste and hearing are both human sensory systems. And
> what's wrong with "personal taste" anyway?
**There is nothing wrong with personal taste. The discussion, however, is
centred around Trevor Lees' altering the fundamental crossover
characteristics of the DC-X, then claiming it to be the result of Hovland
caps, alone. This is, at best, clearly misleading.
And being someone with no
> commercial interest in this NG, i am entitle to my opinion.
**Of course you are. I welcome your opninion. If, however, your opinion is
not backed up by clear facts, be prepared for a battle. Ad hoc attacks will
be treated with comtempt. As will childish retorts.
That's what
> hifi is all about, isn't your personal taste towards ME the reason why
> you are so ethuastic with it?
**Of course.
I certianly hope so, or maybe it's more out
> of commercial interest afterall?
**I could make a lot more money from (say) Sony, than ME. I choose to sell
ME, because Peter Stein has consistently remained faithful to his original
design premise. He has always put the customer first. Ahead of the dealer.
Ahead of the hi fi reviewer. This dedication deserves to be rewarded. In
fact, ME owners often order hew models, even before listening to them. Such
is their confidence in Peter Stein.
>
> > **I'd start by measuring the amount of vibration, in the cabinet and the
> > floor. A spectral analysis of the room, at the listnening position,
would
> > probably show up differences and explain why you hear, what you hear.
There
> > are no mysteries we cannot solve, Ben. It just takes time and
dedication.
>
> Should i measure the time of the sunset, the alignment of the various
> planets and the wind direction too?
**If you wish. Like your ice cream analogy, though, it has no place in this
discussion.
I trust my ear, not a multimeter or
> CRO.
**You asked:
-----------------
"I and a group of audiophile did do a Dblind A/B on a set of equipment
isolation cone, i always thought such gagdets were a total waste of money
before that test, but the difference was so obvious that 17 out of 23 ppl
could tell the diff, how do you explain that? HOw do you measure that? How
can you quantify any changes in a system, without objective measurements?"
-----------------
I believe I answered your question, succinctly and accurately. Why do you
take issue with my answer?
> >
> > > You don't have to share my believes, but that doesn;t mean they are
"mis-
> > > information", just like I never doubt your believe in ME.
> >
> > **Nor should you. You SHOULD doubt my claims, however. I have been
> > consistent in my suggestions that consumers should listen to ME
amplifiers,
> > in comparison to other amplifiers in their price range.
> >
> > > And what about those ever so subtly attack on Redgum and Elektra,
huh?
> >
> > **Not at all. Redgum is a fine product. It is not a product I would
choose,
> > however. That's my personal taste. Elektra is not a product, I have seen
nor
> > heard. I have met Arthur, however. A charming and gracious person, with
> > obvious dedication to his product. I hope he succeeds. I look foreward
to
> > listening and examining Elektra products.
> >
> > > I have tried redgum and never find power as a limiting factor, and
wow,
> >
> > **Neither do I. I have never suggested otherwise.
>
> I recall you saying something like " As long as your speaker is not too
> hard to drive, the redgum should work fine", what are you trying to
> imply? Nice trick on playing on consumer's mind there.
**My comment was accurate and to the point. Redgum amplifiers use MOSFETs
and relatively small power supplies. As such, they are unsuitable for
speakers which exhibit a difficult impedance curve. There are other, more
suitable choices. Why do you take issue with facts? This is not trickery.
This is physics.
>
> >
> >**And you are entitled to that opinion. Personally, I think that it is
> >tough
> >to beat, at that price. It is certainly impossible to beat, with
> >anything
> >not made in Australia. More interestingly, you should compare the ME550-
> >II
> >to your Levinson. You may well be quite surprised.
>
> Umm, looks who is being silly, the 850 might stand a remote chance, the
> 550? You are dreaming.
**The ME850 comfortably outperforms the '331. I did not say the the ME550-II
would outperform the '331. I said: "You may well be quite surprised." The
ME550-II is an amazing amplifier. It will deliver a performance which, in
many areas, will rival that of your '331, at a minute fraction of the price.
Overall, the '331 will probably be better (I've not performed that
particular comparison), but not that much better. In fact, I think there are
some areas where the ME550-II will be slightly better.
Ian Mitchell
Bracketed notes are for anyone following this thread who may be interested in
the subject.
Points taken, the Spanish in America may well have adopted it, it certainly
suited their methods. In fact I stuffed up, I meant to say 13th century not
"1300's". The Crusade proper commenced in 1209 under the direction of Pope
Innocent 3d (there is one of history's great ironies, never has one "innocent"
spilled the blood of so many innocents.) The forces of Simon de Montfort
reached Beziers on July 21, which is where and when the incident took place.
Actually, this period of French history is one of the most/best documented on
record and has almost nothing to do with the Priory de Sion (Kingship and
Christ bloodlines etc.) or Rennes le Chateau (19th century mystery concerning
Templars, Bloodlines, Visigoth treasure, sacred geometry, esoteric meaning in
artwork by Poussin, Da Vinci, Teniers, Dali etc etc. pick your poison).
If you are interested in reading more, go here:
http://militaryhistory.about.com/ and do a search using "Albigensian crusade"
regards
Ian
remarkabel
By the way I do not own VAF products and have no commercial interest in them. I
have heard them on many occasions and was very impressed. I am not a "VAF
apologist" or anything of the like but I do like to see claims backed up.
Ball wrote:
> <snip>
> Here is what i believe in:
> 1)ME240 is over-priced for an intergrated, and don't give me that crap
> about not making any money out of this little amp. All luxury product
> manufacturers make most of their money from the lower range of model, if
> you said the 850 was the case, i might believe u. If the 240 is not a
> money earner, that either means "ME would not be able to survive for
> long" or "the higher range of ME is extremely over-priced". In fact, the
> 240 is one of the biggest revenue maker i would say.
To quote you "Here is what i believe in", and you response to what TW believes in
"and don't give me that crap" (I am not even sure that what you attribute to him
is what he said but not being sure will accept it for now). You are wish to be
allowed to have you're beliefs unchallenged but others are not? How very ignoble
of you.
>
>
> 2)The 240 is nothing to be excited about, ME preamp are only average and
> higher model power amp range from decent to excellent. All ME product are
> well built and use quality componenets.
>
> 3)Vaf DC series are over-priced, even 600 dollars pair of Tannoy R1 is
> better build than the DC2(this is fact, no point arguing). Especially
> when you take into account the shipping/exchange rate disadvantage the
> Tannoy face, and the fact that Vaf is supposingly saving fair bit of
> money selling direct.
I'll argue this. No "budget" Tannoy speaker (including R1) I have ever seen has
had better quality assembly or materials than the DC series from VAF. This is my
FACT.
>
>
> 4)The use of spring clip is unacceptable no matter how you put it. I
> don't care if the metal inside the clip is made from unobtainium. It's
> attention to detail, is the massive heat sink on my amp necceary?
> Probably not, but i like my equipment quality made.
Here you are obviously wrong. It is obviously acceptable to the many owners of
these fine speakers.
What does the size of the heatsink have to do with manufacturing quality? You say
that it is probably not necessary, in that case is its inclusion purely a
marketing ploy? I prefer my money to go towards better sonics not efforts to turn
a sow's ear into a silk purse.
>
>
> 5)Charging customer to have a proper finish instead of the cheap looking
> stocking is unethical too. Let's put R&D aside and just look at component
> cost, considering almost all other Aussie speaker manufacturer have $2000
> approx. models that uses known-source drivers, more x'over component,
> real wood veneer and better cabinet construction (the Osborn F4 for
> example), again bear in mind the fact that Vaf sell direct. It makes me
> wonder where the money went(of course you will say R&D, that's basically
> the only thing left that you CAN say, Bose claim the same too remember?
> And they do spend big money into R&D.)
$2000 is another $210 over the cost of the standard (black stocking) DC-X
(assembled by VAF and delivered to your home). For less (just) than $2k you can
get the jarrah or cherry finish (assembled and delivered). What is the
deficiency here? Oh yes, the infamous $1 crossover - hasn't this one been
thrashed out already? But you do like to SEE where your money has gone don't you?
You also appear to be taking a shot at the drivers used by VAF, what exactly is
your issue with them?
>
>
> 6)The VAF subwoofer are well priced and well made, but still not as good
> as the best availabe, the prices reflect this , and i am sure if Vaf make
> a 4k sub, it will almost certainly be excellent. The best bang for the
> buck i reckon are the satin version of I66 and I93, in fact, i recommend
> anyone put the 66 top at their short list for speaker under 5k.
Fair enough.
>
>
> >
> > **Don't be silly. We're not talking about personal taste, here, we're
> > talking about proof of extraordinary claims.
> >
>
> No, it's not silly, taste and hearing are both human sensory systems. And
> what's wrong with "personal taste" anyway? And being someone with no
> commercial interest in this NG, i am entitle to my opinion. That's what
> hifi is all about, isn't your personal taste towards ME the reason why
> you are so ethuastic with it? I certianly hope so, or maybe it's more out
> of commercial interest afterall?
It is silly, and does not necessarily exclude "personal taste". Personal taste
implies a preference. To have preference for one item over another implies that
there must be some difference between them. If there is a difference it must be
discernible and measurable, if not where is the difference? Hi-fi is about high
fidelity - being faithful in reproduction - if output from product A is more
faithful to the original input than that of product B then product A is more
hi-fi. Simple, with no grey area. If you prefer the sound of product B good for
you, that is "personal taste" and it is the better product FOR YOU but it is
still less hi-fi than product A. Trevor prefers ME because of "personal taste"
AND the fact that (for the price) ME more closely resembles our product A than
other comparably priced components.
>
>
> > **I'd start by measuring the amount of vibration, in the cabinet and the
> > floor. A spectral analysis of the room, at the listnening position, would
> > probably show up differences and explain why you hear, what you hear. There
> > are no mysteries we cannot solve, Ben. It just takes time and dedication.
>
> Should i measure the time of the sunset, the alignment of the various
> planets and the wind direction too? I trust my ear, not a multimeter or
> CRO.
You posed a hypothetical and Trevor developed a theory and a set of test that
could explain and measure the results you heard. I don't think ( and I'm sure TW
didn't either) that the time of the sunset, the alignment of various planets or
wind direction would be factors that would seriously affect the results of such a
series of tests to prove or disprove this theory.
>
> >
> > > You don't have to share my believes, but that doesn;t mean they are "mis-
> > > information", just like I never doubt your believe in ME.
> >
> > **Nor should you. You SHOULD doubt my claims, however. I have been
> > consistent in my suggestions that consumers should listen to ME amplifiers,
> > in comparison to other amplifiers in their price range.
> >
> > > And what about those ever so subtly attack on Redgum and Elektra, huh?
> >
> > **Not at all. Redgum is a fine product. It is not a product I would choose,
> > however. That's my personal taste. Elektra is not a product, I have seen nor
> > heard. I have met Arthur, however. A charming and gracious person, with
> > obvious dedication to his product. I hope he succeeds. I look foreward to
> > listening and examining Elektra products.
> >
> > > I have tried redgum and never find power as a limiting factor, and wow,
> >
> > **Neither do I. I have never suggested otherwise.
>
> I recall you saying something like " As long as your speaker is not too
> hard to drive, the redgum should work fine", what are you trying to
> imply? Nice trick on playing on consumer's mind there.
I think Trevor was trying to say (not imply) that Redgum amps may have trouble
with speakers that exhibit extrem dips in impedance. Very few amps are able to
cope with the difficult loads that some speakers exhibit.
>
>
> >
> >**And you are entitled to that opinion. Personally, I think that it is
> >tough
> >to beat, at that price. It is certainly impossible to beat, with
> >anything
> >not made in Australia. More interestingly, you should compare the ME550-
> >II
> >to your Levinson. You may well be quite surprised.
>
> Umm, looks who is being silly, the 850 might stand a remote chance, the
> 550? You are dreaming.
Maybe he is, but have you done the comparison? If you have not who is being
naive? Don't get me wrong Ben, I am not trying to ttack you just point out that
you seem to like shooting down other peoples "beliefs" based only on your
opinions. You are more than entitled to your opinions but please remember that
they are NOT facts.
Cheers,
Mark
Ian Mitchell
DC-2's, I think I can confidently say two things.
1. They appear (I only say "appear" because I don't own a microscope, and I
think you'd need one to pick the difference) to be identical to a model carried
by Dick Smith Electronics, selling for (I think)$2.56 ea.
2. That doesn't seem to matter too much, as they seem perfectly adequate for the
task (rear and center duties in my HT).
Re performance of the DC series speakers, while the performance of the DC-x's
are easily streets ahead of the opposition at their price point, I couldn't say
the same for the DC-4 or DC-2's (products from B&W and Mission that I auditioned
compete very well, and are probably better. Although without hearing them side
by side, it's hard to say). This is no more than you would expect, (at least I
would expect to see smaller differences at the bottem end of the scale than the
top.)
Damien Smith
Tannoy Mercury M2s and funnily enough, another friend who has some DC-2s. I
did some comparisons so here are my thoughs:
Top-end:
Much clearer on the DC-2s. The M2s are noticably rolled off in the
high-end. End-result - the M2s sound smoother but less dynamic.
Mid-range: Slightly recessed on the M2s - both speakers have quite an
agreeable and detailed midrange though.
Bass: The M2s have a big bottom end (they're almost twice the cabinet size
of the DC-2s) However they do sound artificial and very bloated in the
upper bass region. Amazingly enough, the DC-2s actually sound more extended
in the bass department though not as authoritive - more neutral.
Summary:
A very clear win to the (more expensive) DC-2s, though IMO the DC-2s are a
far cry from the quality of the (only slightly more expensive) DC-7s.
Damien Smith
anything in their price bracket. The same can't be said for the DC-2,4,1.
I found the DC-4 in particular to be only slightly above average for the
price.
Ian Mitchell
dc-4 when set to "large" and in conjunction with my Celestion DL-10's as
mains, actually sounds very good. When used with the DC-x's however it seems
to be overwhelmed. I don't have a spl meter, and I'm not sure if I've got the
levels right.
VAF Research
> Instead of a butch of TW/VAF worshiper here who just blindly agree to
> whatever said in favor of their product.
Why are you linking VAF with Trevor Wilson? We are competitors. He sells
Ambience etc. and VAF does not sell ME.
The two of you are making some pretty acrimonious posts. Please direct the
'venom' at eachother. Of course I will support your right to your opinions,
but some more information and an alternative view follows.......
> Here is what i believe in:
[snip]
> 3)Vaf DC series are over-priced, even 600 dollars pair of Tannoy R1 is
> better build than the DC2(this is fact, no point arguing). Especially
> when you take into account the shipping/exchange rate disadvantage the
> Tannoy face, and the fact that Vaf is supposingly saving fair bit of
> money selling direct.
On what basis do you determine this. Our DC-2 uses composite cone woofers (2
per cabinet) with edge wound voicecoil wire and 'T' shaped pole pieces. I do
not believe the Tannoy is equally equipped.
> 4)The use of spring clip is unacceptable no matter how you put it. I
> don't care if the metal inside the clip is made from unobtainium. It's
> attention to detail, is the massive heat sink on my amp necceary?
> Probably not, but i like my equipment quality made.
At the low price of the DC-2, it seems to me you prefer your equipment to
look high quality than to be high quality....at this price you cannot have
both. By the way, ever take a look at the crossover in the DC-2....1%
tolerance resin bound, air cored inductors and close tolerance capacitors
and resistors.....of course if you prefer a timber box and nice big shiny
terminals in favour of better quality working parts, I cannot argue with
your preference...it's just that our values at VAF are aimed at substance
first and appearance second. When the budget allows, like in our Signature
models, you can have both.
> 5)Charging customer to have a proper finish instead of the cheap looking
> stocking is unethical too. Let's put R&D aside and just look at component
> cost, considering almost all other Aussie speaker manufacturer have $2000
> approx. models that uses known-source drivers, more x'over component,
> real wood veneer and better cabinet construction (the Osborn F4 for
> example), again bear in mind the fact that Vaf sell direct. It makes me
> wonder where the money went(of course you will say R&D, that's basically
> the only thing left that you CAN say, Bose claim the same too remember?
> And they do spend big money into R&D.)
Based specifically on your comments above, your view seems to be that
appearance is more important to you than substance. Of course you are
entitled to your opinions.
I do not understand all your points though. Do you prefer the use of
standard 'off the shelf' drivers than the purpose built ones we use? On our
R&D, we freely publish our measured data.....by any standards it is
superlative....this is specifically where the R&D goes. Unlike *MANY* others
that make the claims, we back ours up with hard data.....this is not common
among audio manufacturers.
Let me ask you a question. Have you *EVER* seen such unanimous AND
continuous 'rave' reviews on any other brand as often AND over as long a
period as VAF has been getting them? Why do you think VAF has so many
supporters here? Your first point on the great number of supporters VAF has
here seems to infer that it is a bad thing that VAF is popular and well
regarded.....is this the 'heat' aimed at Trevor speaking, or is that your
real view?
> 6)The VAF subwoofer are well priced and well made, but still not as good
> as the best availabe, the prices reflect this ,
By what basis do you make this judgment? On distortion you are clearly
wrong. I am not sure what you mean with regard to price, how do the prices
quantify a subwoofers performance?? You may be interested to learn that many
of the newer region 4 DVD's you use at home are mastered on LFE-03/07
subwoofers.
and i am sure if Vaf make
> a 4k sub, it will almost certainly be excellent. The best bang for the >
buck i reckon are the satin version of I66 and I93, in fact, i recommend
> anyone put the 66 top at their short list for speaker under 5k.
You are agreeing with many others here...with my tongue firmly in my cheek,
you may be in danger of being seen as one of the VAF worshipers you were
referring to above :-))
[snip]
Kind regards
Philip Vafiadis
VAF Research Pty Ltd
www.vaf.com.au
Christopher Lees
<tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
>Note 3: ME distribute a range of speaker building materials, including their
>own range of caps, which are exact duplicates of Solens, both sonically and
>mechanically.
Now are these caps better than the ones in the Vafs??
How do these measure sonically ??what tests do you use???
cheers
Trevor Wilson
"Christopher Lees" <trevlees(remove this anti spam section)@bigpond.net.au
(Christopher's bigpond advance)> wrote in message
> On Sun, 20 May 2001 09:50:50 GMT, "Trevor Wilson"
> <tre...@rageaudio.com.au> wrote:
> >Note 3: ME distribute a range of speaker building materials, including
their
> >own range of caps, which are exact duplicates of Solens, both sonically
and
> >mechanically.
> Now are these caps better than the ones in the Vafs??
**I don't know. I doubt it.
> How do these measure sonically ??
**Standard caps, are replaced with IDENTICAL value caps, from the ME range.
All tests, so far, have indicated that they are sonically identical to
Solen.
what tests do you use???
**Electronic? Just the usual ones:
ESL
ESR
Tempco
Etc.
remarkabel
I will need 4 x 10uF caps. Please quote me and I will send you a cheque.
Was the PS suppossed to be a jibe? At me? If so please clarify.
Mark
Trevor Lees wrote:
> Offer is fine cheers Trevor Lees
>
> PS hit and run again.....
>
<snip>
Mark Pakula
>4)The use of spring clip is unacceptable no matter how you put it. I
>don't care if the metal inside the clip is made from unobtainium. It's
>attention to detail, is the massive heat sink on my amp necceary?
>Probably not, but i like my equipment quality made.
Attention to detail?
Attention to narrowminded clients like yourself.
I have a pair for NAD 801's they are much smaller then My DC-2s
they are cheaper then my DC-2. They have nice big screw in binding posts.
They sound about 600 times worse then the DC-2s.
>5)Charging customer to have a proper finish instead of the cheap looking
>stocking is unethical too.
Now this is one of the most stupid things i have heard.
There are many speakers with this design.
Take a look at one of the most highly regarded Home Cinema speakers
ever, Definitve Technologies. They are much more
expensive then the DC-X's and use a similar sock.
They are only cheap looking in your mind.
And, VAF do offer a high quality veneer look for the DC-X
at a most reasonble cost.
>Let's put R&D aside and just look at component
>cost, considering almost all other Aussie speaker manufacturer have $2000
>approx. models that uses known-source drivers,
what does this have to do with anything?
VAFs drivers are obviously european, and most likely french or scandinavian.
They have enough size to have drivers made to their specs.
Which IMHO is a much bigger deal then using an off the shelf driver
and trying to make that sound they way you want.
>more x'over component,
ehhe been discussed many a time.
>real wood veneer and better cabinet construction (the Osborn F4 for
real wood veneer is availble from VAF.
http://www.vaf.com.au/images/dcxfinishes.jpg
Take a look at all the wood in the X's
they weigh over 30kgs each. And you can get the X's at a price well under
$2000. Try $1399.
yes, you might say that they are in kit form etc etc,
what ever. If the F4 was availble in kit form,
then you could talk. And Im sure a lot of the people out buying
F4s would also buy them in kit.
So compare them to speaker at that price, not a $2400 F4.
>example), again bear in mind the fact that Vaf sell direct. It makes me
>wonder where the money went(of course you will say R&D, that's basically
>the only thing left that you CAN say, Bose claim the same too remember?
>And they do spend big money into R&D.)
The money is very very well spent.
If you knew anything about the speakers and not just get some info
from other and VAFs website,
you would see that too.
.m.
Ball
everyone whorship you and those who don't are automatically classify as
"children".
U have forgotten your place in here, I don't see any other audio
manufacturer/dealer here who jump into every oppotunity avaiable to
promote your own product. You are just a subcriber same as everybody
else, I can express whatever opinion i want as long as it is related to
audio without subject to you personal insults. And "You provide me with
two option"? Who the hell do you think you are? You are not a moderater
and this NG is not ran by you. You said you havn't even done comparision
between the 331 and your ME product, then where is the evidence to back
up your claim? Or is it because what you said immediately becomes the
golden rules and what other ppl say must accomplish with a PHD thesis.
No one has to do any thorogth test to express their view, there are
millions of product out there, you can go and try to do a double blind
comparasion with every possible combination. I trust my own ears.
Obviously you are the one who was not brought up right, you never learn
to respect others people, child.
Ben
Ball
continuous 'rave' reviews on any other brand as often AND over as long a
period as VAF has been getting them? Why do you think VAF has so many
supporters here? Your first point on the great number of supporters VAF
has
here seems to infer that it is a bad thing that VAF is popular and well
regarded.....is this the 'heat' aimed at Trevor speaking, or is that your
real view?"
One of the reason you get so many supporter here is becasue they have
access to internet(and your nicely designed website is very appealing to
the internet savy community) and let's not forget "i-got-this-from the-
internet-it-must-be-right-sydrome" there are numerous occasion where
newbie heard good thing about Vaf in this NG and two weeks later with
their newly purchased DC X they suddenly become "audio-expert" and post
their "highly-expert" views on how great the speakers are, bare in mind
that most of their previous system consist nothing more than an AWAI mini
. Then another newbie comes in and see these rave reviews, the cycle goes
on. I know many serious audiophile with equipment in different league
(aka Cello/Ayre/Rowland/Krell/Goldmund etc)that don't even know how to
turn on a PC, while the majority of DC owners couple their speakers with
Japanese HT reciever. Also bare in mind that most DC owner bought their
speaker as their first entry to the hifi world, while the alot of the
audiophiles I know have equipment turnover that exceed hundreds of
thoudsands of dollars.
And please dont' refer to magazine reviews, use them on your next
potential DC-X buyer, you and I both know how to get good review from a
mag.
"By what basis do you make this judgment? On distortion you are clearly
wrong. I am not sure what you mean with regard to price, how do the
prices
quantify a subwoofers performance?? You may be interested to learn that
many
of the newer region 4 DVD's you use at home are mastered on LFE-03/07
subwoofers."
Many CD are mastered on Yammie NS10, again, use this in you marketing
campaigne, I can probably pick a few dozen brands of speakers that are
used in the recording industry. See phil, I have seen too much of these
marketing tactics, it doesn't work on me.
"You are agreeing with many others here...with my tongue firmly in my
cheek,
you may be in danger of being seen as one of the VAF worshipers you were
referring to above :-))"
No, this is what i geniunly believe, if i am a Vaf worshiper, i wouldn't
have said what i have. I have nothing to gain by doing what i did, in
fact i am sure i have anger quite a few ppl who just finish their
honeymoon with the DC-X. I am just trying to remind ppl who are not aware
of other quality brand out there that while the DC series is one of the
better buys, they are not the greatest thing in the world. The signature
series however, are quite special relative to other product in the same
price range.
I have nothing against you, phil, I have recommended your speakers in
numerous occasion. While it's easy to pat each others back, (like many
Vaf owners in here and in aus.ht), not everyone are willing to put some
sense back into the discussion and bring some of you down to earth.
Regards,
Ben
Ben
Adam F
a false assumption?) is another. Perhaps you could take a couple of extra
seconds to type your posts in a word processor and use the spelling and
grammar checkers before sending them?
I know it's the content and not the form that counts in the end, but really!
"others people"?
"NG is not ran"??
Sorry, but it was all getting a bit much for a grammar pedant such as i am.
Adam F
The Doctor
"VAF Research" <phi...@vaf.com.au> wrote in message
news:9ef34g$4s9$1...@pinah.connect.com.au...
I too have a problem with the cheap use of speaker terminals currently being
used in the VAF DC-2. Looking through a recent electronics catalogue the
difference in price between banana plug speaker terminals and spring clip
speaker terminals was $3.85 or $7.70 for a pair. However these were only
retail prices and for a speaker manufacturer who would presumably buy these
parts in the 1000's the price would be cheaper still.
So how much are we really talking about here Mr. Vafiadis probably about an
extra $5 for each pair! Surely this modest investment will not eat into your
fat profit margin too much. Even though the DC-2 is a basic model, for a
small improvement I am sure that 99% of all of your potential customers
would view this as a better product.
Ball
believes in
"and don't give me that crap" (I am not even sure that what you attribute
to him
is what he said but not being sure will accept it for now). You are wish
to be
allowed to have you're beliefs unchallenged but others are not? How very
ignoble
of you."
This is the last thing i would do, perhaps you should direct this to TW
since he provoke the whole thing. It is his in-tolerance to my opinion
and regarding my comment as "hyperbole" in many previous occasion that
has lead to my counter argument, I have ignored TW for evry long and i
have had enough of his attitude. And yes, TW have said on this NG
numerous times that the 240 is not making any money to create an illusion
that the 240 is such a bargain. It migth well be a good buy, but this is
a competitive market and I would rather see those "once in a life time
oppotunity" hardsell on late night TV rather than here.
"I'll argue this. No "budget" Tannoy speaker (including R1) I have ever
seen has
had better quality assembly or materials than the DC series from VAF.
This is my
FACT."
Obviously you perceive quality differently, perhaps you have missed
cabinetry construction/speaker finish etc.
"Here you are obviously wrong. It is obviously acceptable to the many
owners of
these fine speakers."
Sorry to say, lots of DC owners knows bugger all. Go to aus.ht, many
potential DC buyer deosn't know what a RCA jack is.
"What does the size of the heatsink have to do with manufacturing
quality? You say
that it is probably not necessary, in that case is its inclusion purely a
marketing ploy? I prefer my money to go towards better sonics not efforts
to turn
a sow's ear into a silk purse."
Sorry to burst your bubble again, you have been subjected to too much
marketing BS, when the manufacturer tells you the money is going into
where it counts to justify cheaper componenet use, it's almost certian
that money goes into his pocket, nothing wrong with it by the way, in no
way i am suggesting Phil or anyone else are greedy liar, everybody does
it. Open up an issue of Sterephile and you will see.
"You posed a hypothetical and Trevor developed a theory and a set of test
that
could explain and measure the results you heard. I don't think ( and I'm
sure TW
didn't either) that the time of the sunset, the alignment of various
planets or
wind direction would be factors that would seriously affect the results
of such a
series of tests to prove or disprove this theory."
All i am suggesting is whenever someone disagree with TW, he always
demand a double blind AB from that person, lets be serious, how many DB
A/B everyone has done in their life? I have probably done more than the
majority of ppl here. TW is playing on the unlikly-hood that almost
someone has done such test and the fact that he/she is not intended to do
such test, so bingo, TW wins again. There are probably thoudsands of
power amps avaiable in australia, hundreds if we just consider the "high-
end" ones, and we will again reduce our sample to those only frequntly
discuss in here, say 30 or so, now try to work out the number of
combination to compare every amp with each other. And being someone who
can ear right up tp 18-19kHz, i doubt many ppl have better hearing than i
do.
"Maybe he is, but have you done the comparison? If you have not who is
being
naive? Don't get me wrong Ben, I am not trying to ttack you just point
out that
you seem to like shooting down other peoples "beliefs" based only on your
opinions. You are more than entitled to your opinions but please remember
that
they are NOT facts."
I am perfectly fine with other ppl believe, do a search on deja, I never
offend anyone unless i am provoked. I find TW refering me as a child and
question the way i was brought up absolutely un-nessecary, I don't expect
such behaviour by someone like him and i feel really disappointed that
the discussion had to result in this way.
Regards,
Ben
Ball
smith...@NOSPAMhotmail.com says...
it's is much harder to design something that stand ahead of the rest, the
market in sub 1k is very competitive. That's why i said the more
expensive Vaf are very good value relative to other on the market but the
lower range while good, but not street ahead like many have suggested
here. Incidentaly, I have only raise concern on the terminal used and the
finish on the lower range of vaf.
Ben
Ball
smith...@NOSPAMhotmail.com says...
series.
Ben
Ball
not trying to insult you, this is a serious question. Since I don't
really want to waste time on someone who believe Definitive speakers as
the most highly regarded HT speakers. However if you can fulfil the first
task, i feel i might have a more interesting discussion with you.
Regards,
Ben
Johnny
>> A very clear win to the (more expensive) DC-2s, though IMO the DC-2s are a
>> far cry from the quality of the (only slightly more expensive) DC-7s.
>>
>>
>>
>I was refering to the tannoy R series, it's much better built than the M
>series.
>
>Ben
Agreed. The R1 sounds much better than the M1 too, specifically it is
smoother and has cleaner mid/treble sound. The R1 also has good
stable imaging, and very nice midrange voicing, in my opinion. There
are many people who prefer a brighter sound than the R1, but I am not
one them.
regards,
Johnny.
Ball
drh...@bigpond.net.au says...
sort of cable. Alot of quality speaker cables come pre-terminated, and
would assume a Vaf owner would have a greater disire to experience with
differect type of cables, again i am not trying to have a go at Vaf, but
these are valueable customer feedback that other speaker manufacterer
might be be so lucky to get.
Ben
Ball
john...@one.net.au.NOSPAM says...
was quite surprised when i saw the R1 too, i thought they must retail for
at least 1k since all the other UK offerings with similiar quality sell
for around a grand (Mission, AE etc).
Regards,
BEn
Ian Robinson
> > I recall you saying something like " As long as your speaker is not too
> > hard to drive, the redgum should work fine", what are you trying to
> > imply? Nice trick on playing on consumer's mind there.
>
> **My comment was accurate and to the point. Redgum amplifiers use MOSFETs
> and relatively small power supplies. As such, they are unsuitable for
> speakers which exhibit a difficult impedance curve. There are other, more
> suitable choices. Why do you take issue with facts? This is not trickery.
> This is physics.
> Trevor Wilson
> http://www.rageaudio.com.au
>
Which is the better tree, the Oak, or the Palm?
The Oak will withstand mighty winds but will suddenly crash to the ground if
its limits are exceeded.
The Palm is relatively slender but flexible and will withstand much, much
higher winds than an Oak.
These are facts,too! But which particular Law of Physics are intoned as
definitive for this situation? There are many ways to skin a cat. It all
depends on how much pleasure you wish to derive, and how much pain to give
the cat. I can appreciate the school of thought that leads to the conclusion
that the Oak is mightier than the Palm - it is the one that makes solid
English amplifiers. I have gone down a different path so I put these same
laws together differently as I apply them in my products. However, whatever
position one holds, I think the final proof of the pudding is in the
listening. I am apparently not alone in the value of my approach, with
REDGUM having just won its fifth award in just over one year for sonic
excellence (three of them in North America).
To put it another way, the power supply in our integrated amplifier was
"small enough" to drive our audience at the last London Show to the climax
of a standing ovation, having been rooted to their seats for the full length
of the 20+ minute performance on a cheap CD of the 1812 Overture. (Granted,
they were modern American cannons.) But this room full of people were moved
enough by the total experience to spontaneously applaud a recording.
As for the question of 'difficult' impedances, a REDGUM amplifier's sound
quality does not show 'sonic stress' until the load impedance falls below
0.7 ohms (yes, less than one ohm!!!) and I have yet to see a commercial
speaker that difficult!!! Even Charlie from Vass Electrostatics, a proud
upholder of the fact that he has THE speaker that is most difficult to
drive, has not managed to 'kill' a REDGUM amp. His speakers have, however,
killed the "much loved and spoken of" brand on more than one occasion.
So, the question remains - which is better, the Oak or the Palm? Maybe the
word "better" is getting in the way?
Perhaps, a simple observation will help - the palm tree is far more
widespread in regions of greater meteorological variation.
Our ears do not understand theory!
You listen - you choose.
Kindest Regards,
Ian Robinson, REDGUM Audio Pty Ltd
'the amp with the key' - STUNNING!!!
Michael
"Adam F" <ad...@nospam.aphid.net> wrote in message
news:v6MO6.72464$ff.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
Ball
ba...@technologist.com says...
It also provide a greater flexibility for people who want to use
different sort of cable. Alot of quality speaker cables come pre-
terminated, and i would assume most Vaf owners have a greater desire to
experience with differect type of cables than most casual listeners,
again i am not trying to have a go at Vaf, but these are valuable
customer feedbacks which other speaker manufacterers are not be so lucky
to get.
Ben
Patrick Scully
> Patrick,
>
> Bracketed notes are for anyone following this thread who may be interested
in
> the subject.
> Actually, this period of French history is one of the most/best documented
on
> record and has almost nothing to do with the Priory de Sion (Kingship and
> Christ bloodlines etc.) or Rennes le Chateau (19th century mystery
concerning
> Templars, Bloodlines, Visigoth treasure, sacred geometry, esoteric meaning
in
> artwork by Poussin, Da Vinci, Teniers, Dali etc etc. pick your poison).
> If you are interested in reading more, go here:
> http://militaryhistory.about.com/ and do a search using "Albigensian
crusade"
Thanks, most of what I "know" comes from fairly pop sources, where the
chronologies appear to get compressed and blurred. I bow to your obvious
knowledge of the topics, and I will visit the url above.
Adam F
No amount of to-ing and fro-ing should make us lose sight of the obvious -
VAF has served thousands, not to mention many of us (including me), very
well, both in terms of products and service before and after sale.
To those who find DC-Xes harsh - try some eva cassidy or gladys knight. Mmm
smooth like chocolate and twice as sweet :)
Also if you're using cds, get someone to loan u (or you friend who has
DC-Xes) a decent turntable and some audiophile records...then ull never
question the speakers' ability again ;) If only good TTs weren't so damned
pricey these days, and good records so hard to find!
Can't wait to hear some SACDs, when they finally bring out some stuff i
want.
Adam F
Adam F
"Michael" <quadha...@hotmailHAM.com> wrote in message
news:zPNO6.72836$ff.5...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> People in glass houses...
>
Adam F
Dynaudio, Vifa (incl Scanspeak - does that count as one or two?), SEAS,
Focal, Lowther, Altec, JBL.
I think brands like celestion and KEF do or did it a bit too, but i'm no
expert!
I'm sure u could add at least 6 more :)
Adam F
"Ball" <ba...@technologist.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1576477281cbf6ac9896fe@news-server...
Trevor Wilson
> See TW, this is your problem your are a self-centred idiot, u think
> everyone whorship you and those who don't are automatically classify as
> "children".
**Utter nonsense. I don't know everything. I am well versed in my own
particular area of expertise, however. As I am sure you are, in yours. I
have been professionally invloved in most areas of the audio business for
more than 25 years. As such, I have a fair amount of knowledge of many of
these areas. Certainly not perfect, but pretty good.
> U have forgotten your place in here, I don't see any other audio
> manufacturer/dealer here who jump into every oppotunity avaiable to
> promote your own product.
**So what? I play the game my way, they, theirs.
You are just a subcriber same as everybody
> else, I can express whatever opinion i want as long as it is related to
> audio without subject to you personal insults.
**You sure can. However, when you come out with:
----
"Well, the "guru" is always right, who am I anyway?"
------
What do you expect me to do? Ignore such an obvious troll? Forget it!
And "You provide me with
> two option"?
**If you can provide another, I am willing to listen.
Who the hell do you think you are? You are not a moderater
> and this NG is not ran by you. You said you havn't even done comparision
> between the 331 and your ME product, then where is the evidence to back
> up your claim?
**Not so, Once more, for ther record:
I have compared the 331 (and the 332) to the ME1400 and the ME850. I have
not compared the ME550-II to the 331 (or the 332). Experience with the
ME550-II and the ME850, tells me that the ME550-II will equal the 331, in
many areas. It will also be found wanting, in some. I have compared the ME
preamp with the 380S, several times. Clear?
Or is it because what you said immediately becomes the
> golden rules and what other ppl say must accomplish with a PHD thesis.
**Nope. Just logic and common sense.
> No one has to do any thorogth test to express their view, there are
> millions of product out there, you can go and try to do a double blind
> comparasion with every possible combination.
**True. Anyone with a modicum of common sense, however, will listen to as
many similarly priced products, in their particular price range, though. Any
other approach, is slightly foolish.
I trust my own ears.
> Obviously you are the one who was not brought up right, you never learn
> to respect others people, child.
**I treat people with the respect they deserve. Nothing more, nothing less.
remarkabel
Now who is making the type of unfounded assumptions you have accused Trevor
Wilson of elsewhere in this thread?
I too know many people who have owned Krell, Levinson, CR, AN, Jadis, AR,
Graaf, etc electronic and have had absolutley no ides of sound quality. Just
because someone has the money to afford expensive high end gear does not
make someone an expert on sonic quality. I too know many audiophiles who are
much more interested in listening to their equipment (or not depending on
the view you take) than music and as a result are continuously on the (very
expensive)upgrade path. This does not make their decisions, choices,
preferences and biases any more valid than mine, yours or the DC-X owners
you appear so quick to denigrate.
I don't think Phil, TW or anyone else in this NG has ever claimed that the
DC-X's are the "greatest thing in the world". It has been said, quite often,
that they represent excellent value for money. Name another speaker with the
performance of the DC-X under $1500 (the cost in kit form + delivery to your
door) and you get the satisfaction of asseembling them yourself for free.
Mark
remarkabel
Ball wrote:
> "To quote you "Here is what i believe in", and you response to what TW
> believes in
> "and don't give me that crap" (I am not even sure that what you attribute
> to him
> is what he said but not being sure will accept it for now). You are wish
> to be
> allowed to have you're beliefs unchallenged but others are not? How very
> ignoble
> of you."
>
> This is the last thing i would do, perhaps you should direct this to TW
> since he provoke the whole thing. It is his in-tolerance to my opinion
> and regarding my comment as "hyperbole" in many previous occasion that
> has lead to my counter argument, I have ignored TW for evry long and i
> have had enough of his attitude. And yes, TW have said on this NG
> numerous times that the 240 is not making any money to create an illusion
> that the 240 is such a bargain. It migth well be a good buy, but this is
> a competitive market and I would rather see those "once in a life time
> oppotunity" hardsell on late night TV rather than here.
Fair enough, I have obviously taken what you have had to say the wrong way,
I apologise.
>
>
> "I'll argue this. No "budget" Tannoy speaker (including R1) I have ever
> seen has
> had better quality assembly or materials than the DC series from VAF.
> This is my
> FACT."
>
> Obviously you perceive quality differently, perhaps you have missed
> cabinetry construction/speaker finish etc.
Obviously I do perceive things differently and no, I have not missed
construction/finish etc
>
>
> "Here you are obviously wrong. It is obviously acceptable to the many
> owners of
> these fine speakers."
>
> Sorry to say, lots of DC owners knows bugger all. Go to aus.ht, many
> potential DC buyer deosn't know what a RCA jack is.
Be that as it may the issue of whether a spring clip is satisfactory for the
task at hand has been dealt with extensively elsewhere in this NG. The point
being that from a commercial and marketing point of view the speaker sells
to satisfied customers in sufficient quantity to be a viable option for VAF
to continue with. Whether you find the use of this type of terminal
acceptable is mostly irrellevant as you are not the type of customer who is
likely to purchase a speaker like this regardless of terminal type used.
>
>
> "What does the size of the heatsink have to do with manufacturing
> quality? You say
> that it is probably not necessary, in that case is its inclusion purely a
> marketing ploy? I prefer my money to go towards better sonics not efforts
> to turn
> a sow's ear into a silk purse."
>
> Sorry to burst your bubble again, you have been subjected to too much
> marketing BS, when the manufacturer tells you the money is going into
> where it counts to justify cheaper componenet use, it's almost certian
> that money goes into his pocket, nothing wrong with it by the way, in no
> way i am suggesting Phil or anyone else are greedy liar, everybody does
> it. Open up an issue of Sterephile and you will see.
What is your experience or qualifications in marketing. I have been
subjected to much "marketing BS" I have also been responsible for creating
much "marketing BS" over the years. I have under and post grad
qualifications in marketing and communications - I think I recognise
"marketing BS" when I see it and am rearly taken in by it myself.
My comment was in direst response to you statement that the "massive
heatsink" in your amp was "probably not" necessary. If it is not necessary
then why is it included? Who pays for its inclusion? Didn't you get sucked
in by "marketing BS" if you think that because it has these expensive and
"probably not" necessary heat sinks that you are getting better value for
your money. What do you think those superb cases that Levinsons come wrapped
with cost? A hell of a lot more proportionally than ME spend on their cases
I would bet. So ME spend more proportionally on the stuff that makes them
sound good. Does that mean ME sound better than Levinson? Who knows
"personal taste" again. My point being that don't you think those beautiful
industrial designs are there to make it appear that your money is well
spent? Make you feel good about all the money you just dropped on an amp (or
whatever)
>
>
> "You posed a hypothetical and Trevor developed a theory and a set of test
> that
> could explain and measure the results you heard. I don't think ( and I'm
> sure TW
> didn't either) that the time of the sunset, the alignment of various
> planets or
> wind direction would be factors that would seriously affect the results
> of such a
> series of tests to prove or disprove this theory."
>
> All i am suggesting is whenever someone disagree with TW, he always
> demand a double blind AB from that person, lets be serious, how many DB
> A/B everyone has done in their life? I have probably done more than the
> majority of ppl here. TW is playing on the unlikly-hood that almost
> someone has done such test and the fact that he/she is not intended to do
> such test, so bingo, TW wins again. There are probably thoudsands of
> power amps avaiable in australia, hundreds if we just consider the "high-
> end" ones, and we will again reduce our sample to those only frequntly
> discuss in here, say 30 or so, now try to work out the number of
> combination to compare every amp with each other. And being someone who
> can ear right up tp 18-19kHz, i doubt many ppl have better hearing than i
> do.
If that is all you were trying to suggest then you failed to communicate
that to me, I'm sorry. By the way have you done a direct comparison between
your Levinson and *any* ME product (but particularly the 550II or the 850),
you seem to have avoided answering that one.
Ian Mitchell
insulting response since I started reading posts in this ng. What possible
relevence does the ability to drop a few names have in detirmining his worth
as contributor to this discussion? Having personally met Mark, I'd have to
say I hold his views in much higher esteem than the drivel that issues forth
from you. Why not come out of the closet Ben and tell me and the other
"newbies" just what are the credentials you have that support your
self-appointed role as the high priest of hi-fi. I personally take exception
to a number of inferences in your posts, although to be fair, I'm not sure if
you really are incapable of detecting subtlety or that it's a problem with
culture/language.
Ian
Damien Smith
Are you serious? What game are you playing exactly? That is one of the
most condescending things I've read in this group. Grow up.
Ian Mitchell
actually big and well regarded re drivers for proff P.A.and guitar
amp/foldback. KEF, if memory serves me correctly have drivers made to their
specification by someone else......just like VAF :-).
Ball
says...
think they supply all those 3/5a drivers to Roger/Harbeth etc, don't
think you can get their drivers used in their current model range though,
AFAIK Celestion don't sell their drivers to other company.
Ben
Ball
says...
still support him anyway.
As I said I was not trying to offend him, if it seems that way, i am
sorry. In his original post, he refer me as someone that have no
knowledge of speaker, I made my own speakers and have fair bit of
knowledge of speaker building. On the other hand, however, he believes
that "Definiyive tech" is one of the most highly-regarded speaker
manufacturer and he also believe that OEM drivers is of lesser quality
than the so called "purpose-made" one, i feel there is no point for me to
continue with this argument since we hold so different opinion.
Ben