Old KEF speakers
Victor von der Heyde
they sound good) and selling 2. Does anyone know whether they had a
particular name and what they would be worth?
They are 23kgs each, 3 way speakers, size 43 x 30 x 71 cm and they have
markings on DN12 and SP1004.
Thanks.
Victor von der Heyde
Trevor
"Victor von der Heyde" <viv...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:3C68FDEE...@ozemail.com.au...
Is the woofer a flat oval? If so it sounds like the Concerto's. A very good
speaker which can be improved further by replacing the crossover. That was
their weakest part.
Trevor.
Victor von der Heyde
the mid 70's.
Any idea what a pair would be worth now? $200?
Thanks,
Victor
Trevor
> That's right Trevor. The woofer is a flat over. I imagine my Dad bought
them in
> the mid 70's.
> Any idea what a pair would be worth now? $200?
>
> Thanks,
> Victor
Depends on who's paying I guess.
Personally I think a pair in good order will sound better than any new
speaker under $1000 AUD. When properly modified, you could nearly double
that. IMO. You couldn't possibly sell them for that of course :-)
Trevor.
Phil Allison
** This is the Kef Concerto 3 way with the oval B139 bass driver, B100
for mids and T27 tweeter.
I was once the proud owner of a highly modified pair with ceramic
tile lined boxes and all air core inductors and plastic caps in the x-over.
Killer Concerto maybe!
Then I got a pair of old Quad ESL 57s in good order and sold the KCs
off real quick.
Regards, Phil
BTW Your speakers are 25 years old or more and lucky to be still working.
Maybe they have antique value - advertise them and find out.
Trevor
"Phil Allison" <bi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:dUoa8.972$wG3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
> BTW Your speakers are 25 years old or more and lucky to be still working.
Why? The drivers are well made and use good quality surrounds which seem to
last quite well. I bet there are a lot still working. I am willing to bet
they will still outlast some of the speakers made today.
Trevor.
Phil Allison
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message
news:3c6cc381$0$18471$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
** You are an optimist. Corossion and open cct failure of the voice coil
copper feed wires is likely in old speakers even if the glue still holds
together. Also bi-polar caps in the x-over are prone to failure too.
Regards, Phil
Trevor Wilson
**All quite true. However, replacing the caps is not difficult. The old B139
has such a large VC gap, that working on is child's play. The bolts holding
it together are easily accessible and providing serious damage has not
occurred, service should be relatively straight-forward, by any well trained
person. Later versions of the T27 (identified by lead wires on the outside)
are still repairable. The B110 is not easily repairable, but is incredibly
robust and will likely last forever.
HOWEVER, the Concertos were a seriously flawed design. The crossover was an
abomination and box design would have made Neville Thiele cringe. A
re-design is in order. Even better, install the drivers into a Bailey
Transmission Line.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Phil Allison
"Trevor Wilson" <rage...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c6d8450$0$17050$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> HOWEVER, the Concertos were a seriously flawed design. The crossover was
an
> abomination and box design would have made Neville Thiele cringe. A
> re-design is in order. Even better, install the drivers into a Bailey
> Transmission Line.
** Trevor's unsupported opinions tarted up as facts again.
Regards, Phil
Victor von der Heyde
I see there are different views! But I know what they are now and I'll
advertise them.
Victor
Trevor
"Trevor Wilson" <rage...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c6d8450$0$17050$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
>
> coil
> > copper feed wires is likely in old speakers even if the glue still holds
> > together. Also bi-polar caps in the x-over are prone to failure too.
Corrosion of copper wires depends on impurities and environment, not
necessarily age. I have some 40 year old speakers still going fine. Age
alone has nothing to do with it.
As for caps, they are cheap, the whole crossover should be replaced anyway
as I have stated many times already.
> **All quite true. However, replacing the caps is not difficult. The old
B139
> has such a large VC gap, that working on is child's play. The bolts
holding
> it together are easily accessible and providing serious damage has not
> occurred, service should be relatively straight-forward, by any well
trained
> person. Later versions of the T27 (identified by lead wires on the
outside)
> are still repairable. The B110 is not easily repairable, but is incredibly
> robust and will likely last forever.
This is a more realistic evaluation.
> HOWEVER, the Concertos were a seriously flawed design. The crossover was
an
> abomination and box design would have made Neville Thiele cringe. A
> re-design is in order. Even better, install the drivers into a Bailey
> Transmission Line.
Yes the crossover was the weak link as I have said many times already, and
can be easily replaced giving excellent performance.
The Bailey transmission line enclosure was a good alternative, but please
tell us what exactly was wrong with the standard cabinet other than you
didn't like the design compromises, which every speaker suffers from. The
ports can be retuned quite easily if you prefer, but there is really not too
much wrong with the bass performance of these speakers compared with any
speakers made today for under $1000 or more.
I wonder if Phil would throw out a pair of Duntech Sovereigns after 20 years
as well? Not me!
Trevor.
ian falloon
was an
> abomination and box design would have made Neville Thiele cringe. A
> re-design is in order. Even better, install the drivers into a Bailey
> Transmission Line.
KEF did a revamp of the Concerto kit in the 80's called the CS7.It
employed a new computer designed crossover similar to the KEF 105
Reference series.Also used a new sealed box alignment for the
B139,plus proper inline mounting of the B110 and a new tweeter, the
T33a.A much better sounding design.The crossovers for these are still
available at Falcon Acoustics in the UK or if anyone is interested I
can email details of the cct and box drawings.
Trevor Wilson
**Nothing unsupported about it. Many years ago, I ran a simulation of the
Concerto enclosure with LEAP. It had serious problems in the bass region
(which are audible, BTW). As Trevor has suggested, simple re-tuning would
solve the issue. The rest of my comments are on the money. If you have
evidence to the contrary, please present it.
BTW: I built a pair of Bailey T-lines, more than 25 years ago. I originally
used the KEF crossovers. I subsequently ditched them, for some very
excellent Radford crossovers. I had managed to compare the Concertos to the
T-lines, many times. The result was always the same. The Concertos sucked.
Huge, boomy bass and ill-defined mids and highs. Particularly the early
versions of the B110. It possessed serious cone/surround termination
resonance problems. Those problems were addressed by the Radford crossover,
and later, by KEF themselves, with a redesigned B110. The T-Lines lasted me
more than 15 years. In fact, I could probably live with them, even now.
Arguably the most natural, clean bass I have ever experienced.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Trevor Wilson
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message
**Agreed.
> The Bailey transmission line enclosure was a good alternative, but please
> tell us what exactly was wrong with the standard cabinet other than you
> didn't like the design compromises, which every speaker suffers from.
**The old speaker suffered with poor alignment choices and, of course, poor
diffraction effects (common to many speakers of the time). All of which
could easily be addressed and rectified.
The
> ports can be retuned quite easily if you prefer, but there is really not
too
> much wrong with the bass performance of these speakers compared with any
> speakers made today for under $1000 or more.
**Maybe, maybe not. They'll certainly do a few things that a $1k speaker
cannot do. They will also suffer, by comparison, to a properly though out
$1k design. It will depend on the preferences of the listener.
>
> I wonder if Phil would throw out a pair of Duntech Sovereigns after 20
years
> as well? Not me!
**Me either. I re-aquainted myself with a pair of these puppies, just 3
weeks ago (driven by an ME1400, of course). Simply awsome. Old they may be,
but they do pretty much everything a single speaker could ever be expected
to do. And without a subwoofer. They'll reproduce antying from a single
flute, played pianissimo, to full orchestra (with pipe organ), to ACDC. I'd
buy a pair, if the boss would let me (which she won't).
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Phil Allison
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <rage...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3c6d8450$0$17050$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Corrosion of copper wires depends on impurities and environment, not
> necessarily age. I have some 40 year old speakers still going fine. Age
> alone has nothing to do with it.
** Old speakers commonly die from glue failures and corrosion problems -
this is rarely seen in speakers under 10 years. Age is the main factor if
damage is avoided and there are no foam surrounds.
> I wonder if Phil would throw out a pair of Duntech Sovereigns after 20
years
> as well? Not me!
>
> Trevor.
** Did I say throw away the Kefs? You are fond of the "straw man" false
argument.
Phil
*
Trevor
> ** Old speakers commonly die from glue failures and corrosion
problems -
> this is rarely seen in speakers under 10 years. Age is the main factor if
> damage is avoided and there are no foam surrounds.
Using this logic, ANY failure is age related. However the real reason is
often choice and quality of materials. As well as operating conditions,
storage conditions etc. The fact is some speakers do last 50 years, some
last less than one.
> ** Did I say throw away the Kefs? You are fond of the "straw man"
false
> argument.
What were you suggesting then? Keep them but don't use them?
Trevor.
Phil Allison
>
> "Phil Allison" <bi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:v6kb8.3047$wG3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >
> > "Trevor Wilson" <rage...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:3c6d8450$0$17050$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >
> >
> > >
> > > HOWEVER, the Concertos were a seriously flawed design. The crossover
was
> > an
> > > abomination and box design would have made Neville Thiele cringe. A
> > > re-design is in order. Even better, install the drivers into a Bailey
> > > Transmission Line.
> >
> >
> > ** Trevor's unsupported opinions tarted up as facts again.
> >
>
> **Nothing unsupported about it.
** You did not support your assertions here for me to see. You claimed an
absent expert would support you - that is idiotic. You gave no explanations
since you imagine your opinions are authoritative.
Many years ago, I ran a simulation of the
> Concerto enclosure with LEAP. It had serious problems in the bass region
> (which are audible, BTW). As Trevor has suggested, simple re-tuning would
> solve the issue. The rest of my comments are on the money. If you have
> evidence to the contrary, please present it.
** Those who make assertions must back them up, it is not possible to
argue against a case until it is made.
>
> BTW: I built a pair of Bailey T-lines, more than 25 years ago. I
originally
> used the KEF crossovers. I subsequently ditched them, for some very
> excellent Radford crossovers. I had managed to compare the Concertos to
the
> T-lines, many times. The result was always the same. The Concertos sucked.
> Huge, boomy bass and ill-defined mids and highs. Particularly the early
> versions of the B110. It possessed serious cone/surround termination
> resonance problems. Those problems were addressed by the Radford
crossover,
> and later, by KEF themselves, with a redesigned B110. The T-Lines lasted
me
> more than 15 years. In fact, I could probably live with them, even now.
> Arguably the most natural, clean bass I have ever experienced.
** Lots more opinions here all needing facts to prop them up.
Phil
BTW I ditched my modified Concertos for Quad ESLs - what does that tell
you?
Trevor Wilson
>
>
> BTW I ditched my modified Concertos for Quad ESLs - what does that tell
> you?
**It tells me that you may be able to recognise good sound, when you hear
it. In the areas in which they excel, few speakers can match the original
Quads.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Phil Allison
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message
>
> "Phil Allison" <bi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:VEnb8.3218$wG3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> > ** Old speakers commonly die from glue failures and corrosion
> problems -
> > this is rarely seen in speakers under 10 years. Age is the main factor
if
> > damage is avoided and there are no foam surrounds.
>
> Using this logic, ANY failure is age related. However the real reason is
> often choice and quality of materials. As well as operating conditions,
> storage conditions etc. The fact is some speakers do last 50 years, some
> last less than one.
** The chance of failure goes up with age, whatever the underlying
causes. You argument is pure sophistry.
>
> > ** Did I say throw away the Kefs? You are fond of the "straw man"
> false
> > argument.
>
> What were you suggesting then? Keep them but don't use them?
** You use another "straw man" in lieu of a real point.
Phil
Trevor
> ** The chance of failure goes up with age, whatever the underlying
> causes.
Of course, but there is no defined use by date for high quality products.
>You argument is pure sophistry.
Thank you.
> > What were you suggesting then? Keep them but don't use them?
>
> ** You use another "straw man" in lieu of a real point.
And you still can't give a straight answer to anything.
Trevor.
Trevor
>
> "Phil Allison" <bi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:vIpb8.3278$wG3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
> >
> >
> > BTW I ditched my modified Concertos for Quad ESLs - what does that tell
> > you?
You spent a lot of money upgrading, and it appears you were happy with the
purchase. Good for you.
> **It tells me that you may be able to recognise good sound, when you hear
> it. In the areas in which they excel, few speakers can match the original
> Quads.
Very true, unfortunately bass was not one of those areas. Now if he had kept
the B139's and put them in Bailey TL's, he could have had good bass as well.
Trevor.
Trevor Wilson
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message
**Give the man $64,000.00.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
Phil Allison
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message news:3c6f2fc3$0$22903> >
> > > BTW I ditched my modified Concertos for Quad ESLs - what does that
tell
> > > you?
>
> You spent a lot of money upgrading, and it appears you were happy with the
> purchase. Good for you.
** I sold the Kefs with metal stands for $350 in 1975 and bought the Quads
for $80 each from seperate owners who had bought them in the days of mono.
>
> Very true, unfortunately bass was not one of those areas. Now if he had
kept
> the B139's and put them in Bailey TL's, he could have had good bass as
well.
>
> Trevor.
** Quad ESLs have ultra tight bass down to 65 Hz or so - I added an
active sub finally when CDs came out.
Phil
Phil Allison
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message
>
> "Phil Allison" <bi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:BFrb8.3318$wG3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
> > ** The chance of failure goes up with age, whatever the underlying
> > causes.
>
> Of course, but there is no defined use by date for high quality products.
>
> >You argument is pure sophistry.
>
> Thank you.
** Maybe you should look the word up before you thank me too much.
>
> > > What were you suggesting then? Keep them but don't use them?
> >
> > ** You use another "straw man" in lieu of a real point.
>
> And you still can't give a straight answer to anything.
>
> Trevor.
** A crooked question gets the answer it deserves.
Phil
Trevor
> ** Maybe you should look the word up before you thank me too much.
I was being sarcastic, however maybe you should realise there are two
definitions. The greek sophists had much to admire, unlike some newsgroup
inhabitants.
> > > > What were you suggesting then? Keep them but don't use them?
> > >
> > > ** You use another "straw man" in lieu of a real point.
> >
> > And you still can't give a straight answer to anything.
> ** A crooked question gets the answer it deserves.
And we still have NO idea what exactly you were suggesting, because you
prefer to play games when challenged.
Trevor.
Trevor
> ** I sold the Kefs with metal stands for $350 in 1975 and bought the
Quads
> for $80 each from seperate owners who had bought them in the days of mono.
Lucky you. Doesn't that make these speakers a lot more than 20 years old!
How old were they when they died?
> ** Quad ESLs have ultra tight bass down to 65 Hz or so - I added an
> active sub finally when CDs came out.
I was quite partial to hearing the bottom 1&1/2 octaves even before CD was
invented. A quick listen to Bach's Toccata and Fugue in Dm, suggested to me
the Quad's were a little short in the bass department, and would benefit
from a good sub woofer. I won't even mention the 1812 overture (oh I just
did :-)
Each to his own though.
Trevor.
Phil Allison
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message
>
> "Phil Allison" <bi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:93Ib8.5908$wG3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> > ** I sold the Kefs with metal stands for $350 in 1975 and bought the
> Quads
> > for $80 each from seperate owners who had bought them in the days of
mono.
>
> Lucky you. Doesn't that make these speakers a lot more than 20 years old!
> How old were they when they died?
** No relevance to the Kefs, dynamics and electrostats are very
different. My ESLs have died and been reborn (at great effort and expense)
several times. I should call them Lazerus speakers!
>
> > ** Quad ESLs have ultra tight bass down to 65 Hz or so - I added an
> > active sub finally when CDs came out.
>
> I was quite partial to hearing the bottom 1&1/2 octaves even before CD was
> invented. A quick listen to Bach's Toccata and Fugue in Dm, suggested to
me
> the Quad's were a little short in the bass department, and would benefit
> from a good sub woofer. I won't even mention the 1812 overture (oh I just
> did :-)
> Each to his own though.
>
> Trevor.
** Peter Walker (Quad founder) advises against the use of subs. He calls
them "things that go woof in the night". His then he is a perfectionist!
Phil
Trevor
> ** No relevance to the Kefs, dynamics and electrostats are very
> different.
Very true, they are more fragile.
>My ESLs have died and been reborn (at great effort and expense)
> several times. I should call them Lazerus speakers!
Yes most things can usually be fixed if the expense can be justified.
Dynamic or electrostatic speakers included. Fortunately my KEF's have cost
$0 to repair in the last 25 years, unlike your "great effort and expense".
However the quad's are nice, and you probably think the expense was worth
it.
> ** Peter Walker (Quad founder) advises against the use of subs. He
calls
> them "things that go woof in the night". His then he is a perfectionist!
He is quite entitled to his opinion of course, as are you, (and me I would
have thought) but that hardly makes him a perfectionist. Most people choose
to compromise on bass performance for many different reasons.
Trevor.
Phil Allison
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message
>
> "Phil Allison" <bi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:Y5Ib8.5911$wG3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
>
> > ** Maybe you should look the word up before you thank me too much.
>
> I was being sarcastic, however maybe you should realise there are two
> definitions. The greek sophists had much to admire, unlike some newsgroup
> inhabitants.
** My dictionary (Macquarie) only gives one for the word.
>
> > > > > What were you suggesting then? Keep them but don't use them?
> > > >
> > > > ** You use another "straw man" in lieu of a real point.
> > >
> > > And you still can't give a straight answer to anything.
>
> > ** A crooked question gets the answer it deserves.
>
> And we still have NO idea what exactly you were suggesting, because you
> prefer to play games when challenged.
>
> Trevor.
** I though my BTW comment was very simple. The OP has 4 x Kef
Concertos all about 27 years old in good working order. That is a total of
12 drivers and 4 x-overs all still operating OK. I felt that was just a
little bit remarkable, so I said so. The OP also wants to sell two of them
and I felt the great age made it hard to put a fair price on them.
Seems some other hidden meanings were being inferred.
Phil
Ted Riesz
I thought Trevor's comments were succint and helpful. Probably summed up
the best way to go with the KEF's.
Can't see the point in the bickering on this thread though.
Sure old speakers may have problems but so do newer ones.
At least the KEF's don't suffer from foam rot and there is also the view
that some speakers improve with age just like fine wines. This is
demonstrated by the apparent high demand on eBay for vintage speakers such
as Tannoys and Goodmans where the older models are often more sought after
than more recent versions.
Anyway speakers like the KEF's are usually cheaper to buy than new roughly
equivalent speaker drivers. I also note that many old speaker drivers are
more repairable than most new ones. You can usually easliy remove the
magnet assembly (eg Leaks, Goodmans, Tannoy, Wharfedale). Not sure about
KEFs though.
Lets focus on constructive comments rather than nit picking on others
contributions. Makes for a more useful newsgroup
My 2c worth. Hope I did not offend.
Regards
Ted Riesz
"Phil Allison" <bi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:Fz5c8.7111$wG3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Phil Allison
"Ted Riesz" <tri...@webone.com.au> wrote in message
news:3c72...@iridium.webone.com.au...
> Hi
>
> I thought Trevor's comments were succint and helpful. Probably summed up
> the best way to go with the KEF's.
** Friend of Trevor's are you?
Phil
Ted Riesz
Have never met him and do not even live in the same town
Regards
Ted Riesz
"Phil Allison" <bi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:8tqc8.7731$wG3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
Phil Allison
> No Just that I agreed with his expressed views.
>
> Have never met him and do not even live in the same town
>
> Regards
>
> Ted Riesz
>
* So you know where he lives?
Phil
Trevor
>
> "Ted Riesz" <tri...@webone.com.au> wrote in message
> news:3c72d5d1$1...@iridium.webone.com.au...
> > No Just that I agreed with his expressed views.
Thanks Ted.
> > Have never met him and do not even live in the same town
> * So you know where he lives?
He can probably read. I've said more than once that I'm in Melbourne.
Just how much fun do you actually get from these constant attacks Phil? What
has Ted done to upset you, other than voice an opinion?
Time to move on I think.
Trevor.
Phil Allison
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message
>
> "Phil Allison" <bi...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:jDCc8.8684$wG3....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com...
> >
> > "Ted Riesz" <tri...@webone.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:3c72d5d1$1...@iridium.webone.com.au...
> > > No Just that I agreed with his expressed views.
>
> Thanks Ted.
>
> > > Have never met him and do not even live in the same town
>
> > * So you know where he lives?
>
> He can probably read. I've said more than once that I'm in Melbourne.
> Just how much fun do you actually get from these constant attacks Phil?
** There are no attacks, just self defense. You misinterpreted and then
attacked my BTW comment. I have been on the defensive ever since.
Phil
Trevor
> ** There are no attacks, just self defense. You misinterpreted and then
> attacked my BTW comment. I have been on the defensive ever since.
I'm sure you think so Phil, I wonder whether others would agree.
I may challenge someone's opinion, but I never attack anyone personally
unless provoked.
What was the "attack" from Ted that you were defending yourself from? I
didn't see any.
Trevor.
OzPaul
bored and not expecting such a lot about my beloved Concertos which my
father and I constucted in the late 70's. I agree there was much
discussion then about the crossovers and now I am thinking about
replacing them, I would be interested in changing the crossovers
first. They are DN12s. I presume Falcon have web site and will mail
for a reasonable cost? Must say I have been wondering if it is my
hearing rather than my system which has been aging! Regards Paul.
ian falloon
www.falcon-acoustics.co.uk/pl28p5.htm
Or if you like to" roll you own" I can email you the schematic.Its
rather more complex than the original DN 12 however.(Proper
equalisation for the B110, plus 18db slope i/l/o 12db to attenuate the
severe breakup modes of the B139 at mid frequencies etc)
pfwe...@yahoo.com (OzPaul)
wrote in message news:<1057d2d7.02030...@posting.google.com>...
OzPaul
ported. Is this an issue? Regrds Paul.
ian...@bigpond.com (ian falloon) wrote in message news:<3d47bdc3.02030...@posting.google.com>...
OzPaul
ian...@bigpond.com (ian falloon) wrote in message news:<3d47bdc3.02030...@posting.google.com>...
OzPaul
pfwe...@yahoo.com (OzPaul) wrote in message news:<1057d2d7.02031...@posting.google.com>...
ian falloon
crossover is concerned.Personally I would be inclined to experiment
with blocking off the port or maybe retuning it as per earlier
suggestions to improve the bass definition.Depends how far you want to
go with what is quite an old speaker with limitations in
sensitivity,dynamics and transparency compared to more recent designs
pfwe...@yahoo.com (OzPaul) wrote in message news:<1057d2d7.02031...@posting.google.com>...
OzPaul
got some good advice for a Sydney company (Acoustica or something,
can't quite remember). In the end I decided it was all too much
trouble and I was too attached to my old ones to change them anyway.
I'll certainly look into the crossovers however and if you would email
me the schematic as below I'd appreciate it. As I mentioned previously
I think my tweeters are T27s rather than T33s mentioned in the CLS7
specs, the midranges are 110's + the 139s ofcourse. Even if I
eventually change the speakers I think one of my kids might be
interested in them. Thanks again Paul (pfwe...@yahoo.com).
Trevor
"ian falloon" <ian...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3d47bdc3.02031...@posting.google.com...
>Depends how far you want to
> go with what is quite an old speaker with limitations in
> sensitivity,dynamics and transparency compared to more recent designs
It is total fallacy that newer designs are always better. Newer designs CAN
definitely be better, and some of the more expensive examples are. There are
also a hell of a lot inferior examples being built today including almost
anything that sells new for the same price as a pair of S/H concerto's.
Sensitivity and dynamics are not something that have improved much over the
years, in fact they were much greater in the days of horn loaded speakers,
such as the Klipschorn, Tannoy GRF, JBL Hartfield etc. All these speakers
are well over 30 years old.
(Yes I know horn loaded speakers have their limitations, but sensitivity and
dynamics aren't among them)
Then there is the issue of dynamics over what frequency range? Name one full
range speaker that sells new for the price of a S/H pair of KEF's, that has
greater SPL and lower distortion at < 40 Hz, than a pair of concerto's?
If you prefer just midrange, the B110 is not that bad, it was even used in
many well regarded speakers other than KEF. When it's not trying to produce
the bass frequencies as well (as it is expected to do in some of those
designs) it obviously performs much better.
Replacing the crossover IS worthwhile with these drivers.
Trevor.
Ted Riesz
concentrics have something about their naturalness which is hard to find in
most modern speakers. The main drawback is these usually require large
enclosures which normally requires understanding (or similarly interested)
spouses or girlfriends.
I susspect the attractiveness of such speakers relates to their high
efficiency which should provide for a good transient response and the
simplicity of xovers normally used in such speakers.
Interested in other views on this.
Regards
Ted Riesz
"Trevor" <trevor@home> wrote in message
news:3c8da3aa$0$21921$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
ian falloon
& the Spendor BC1 being two notable exceptions .I'm not so sure about
some of those horn loaded Tannoys etc that you mention though.Oh the
colouration! Not for me thanks!
Was just stating my subjective impressions from having used that
particular KEF combination and being very familiar with it's
performance and shortcomings.ie slow,slighty ponderous
bass,(particularly with transmission line loading)and smooth but laid
back midrange-lacking in transparency & dynamic expression-the all
important "excitement factor"The old T27 tweeter was hardly the last
word in refinement either, with rather a spiky top end "sting".A nice
enough speaker in its day but one that could be equalled or bettered
in terms of musical satisfaction by one of the current budget models
from KEF or Mission for example.
Richard G
where's the midrange?
What you say about the T27 may be true, but the LS3/5a still takes some
beating IMO, despite its own quirks.
"ian falloon" <ian...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3d47bdc3.02031...@posting.google.com...
ian falloon
characteristic of those KEF drivers.A review in "Hi Fi Choice" Jan
1989 supports this-"Though the panel appreciated many of the
traditional virtues-several listeners also reacted strongly against
the overall sound on grounds of "speed" and clarity and a general loss
of the excitement quotient in the music." Interestingly the older
version with the original B110 is often preferred by LS3/5A devotees.
"Richard G" <golds...@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<NkEj8.10414$uR5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
Richard G
quirks. It also has a fake bass hump to make it sound bigger than it is.
And it is damned inefficient, just soaking up that power. Geez, look at the
number of components in the crossover! Hardly in keeping with today's
minimalist philosophy. But I do think it excels in nice imaging and nicely
conveys the essence of the music, which is why I use a pair in the second
system. It can be "exciting" to hear such nuances not heard elsewhere IMO.
I note that the article you referred to was from the late 80's. They seem
to have found favour again in a retro sort of way. (See eg the recent
LS3/5a shootout by Ken Kessler et al in Hi-Fi News. Then again, KK can be a
bit of a loon and likes old stuff. esp Quad ESL, LS3/5a.)
Terms like "speed" and "excitement" are a bit dubious in some regard, and
make me think of metal cone drivers, Naim amplifiers and the like. Not
necessarily bad, but a far cry from the likes of older style BBC monitors,
Tannoys etc.
"ian falloon" <ian...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3d47bdc3.02031...@posting.google.com...
ian falloon
distinguishes a highly rewarding,emotionally involving musical
experience from just a pale imitation of same.
Very much the Linn/Naim versus the rest discussion that went on back
in the 70's and 80's.
Not sure that I would lump the old Tannoys in with BBC monitor designs
-two very different philosophies there I would have thought.The
Tannoys were very efficient-typically 93-96dB/W with fairly bumpy
looking response curves.BBC designs were usually insensitive(eg
LS3/5A-82dB/W)but much smoother response with less colouration.
Remember hearing the awesome looking Tannoy Westminster some years
ago.Marvellous efficiency and stunning dynamic range but not
particularly accurate on classical music.
"Richard G" <golds...@bigpond.com> wrote in message news:<QjBk8.12708$uR5....@newsfeeds.bigpond.com>...
Richard G
> distinguishes a highly rewarding,emotionally involving musical
> experience from just a pale imitation of same.
Hopefully, these should not be mutually exclusive.
> Very much the Linn/Naim versus the rest discussion that went on back
> in the 70's and 80's.
**And that spirit is still alive and well on the Naim forum - according to
them, the only gear that "plays a tune" can come from the handful of
manufacturers they espouse - ie Linn, Naim and perhaps Exposure and a couple
of others. I find this simplistic cant, and more akin to religious
subscription than an honest open minded appraisal of equipment. That said,
I quite like my LP12/IttockLVII, though I'd be kidding myself if I thought
it was "accurate" !
> Not sure that I would lump the old Tannoys in with BBC monitor designs
> -two very different philosophies there I would have thought.
**Agreed, but they seem to be lumped together by some types for being "slow"
and "round earth" (and both definitely "retro"). I've owned ESLs, LS3/5a
and Tannoy HPD dual concentrics at various times. They all do certain things
well, but I'd never revisit the Tannoy thing, for the very reasons you
outline. My present main speakers have metal cone drivers, but I'm pretty
sure they are the last speakers I'll own! Nice midrange and imaging, but a
certain coldness exists.
BTW, what speakers "float your boat" at present?
Richard G
I own.
"ian falloon" <ian...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:3d47bdc3.02031...@posting.google.com...
ian falloon
>
> BTW, what speakers "float your boat" at present?
Started out many moons ago with the KEFS in transmission lines,then
progressed to Spendor BC1-lovely, natural sounding mid and treble but
a bit overcooked in the bass dept.Dabbled with Audionote AN-E for a
while and currently enjoying a DIY effort with Audax TPX mid-bass
driver plus the venerable Celestion HF 1300 tweeter.Could easily be
persuaded by a nice pair of Sonus Fabers though!