ER Audio ESL speaker kits
Patrick Turner
If so, what was you experience, and how good were the results?
Patrick Turner.
Peter Wieck
Patrick:
No to your direct question. However, those that I know who have made
Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them by installing
new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine hands, infinite
patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with pleasure tend
to do quite well.
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
Patrick Turner
I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
"peel a raisin".
After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.
Patrick Turner.
>
> Peter Wieck
> Wyncote, PA
jtde...@westnet.com.au
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Patrick,
I have two friends with these.These are great value speakers and
capable of astonishing imaging.Like anything they have their faults-
they beam like most stats ,need amps that can deliver plenty of
current[1 ohm at 1000Hz! ] and really need a good ,fast sounding sub
to round off the bottom end.This is all pretty normal fullrange sort
of stat stuff of course.
Craig Brown who used to post here has a pair although he did not buy
them as a kit.He uses a sub I put together using an RCF pro 15 inch
woofer which works really well with them.
TT
"Patrick Turner" <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:462111B4...@turneraudio.com.au...
As JT says here a mutual friend has these. He sold his Quad
ESL57s to buy the ER Audio ones.
I had a good long look at these before I bought my Equinox
Apogees and had an extensive demo of them at Rob McInlay's
house. I have met the guy and was run through all the
construction procedures and yes they do appear to be easy to
construct and for a man of your many talents it will be
piece of cake ;-)
I wanted Rob to supply a working, finished pair and he was
less than enthusiastic. Not having the time or the
inclination to build them myself the deal never went
further. Plus, as with *all* ESLs they were bass shy. He
even admits this on his site ;-)
The pair that I demoed were constructed of PVC water pipe
and these (I believe) are the ones Craig Brown ended up
with. As he is a cabinet maker he was going to construct
some nice frames and give me a ring when they were finished.
That is now over 2 years ago ;-)
IMHO for the money you can't go wrong.
If you ask slightly more specific questions perhaps I can
add some further detail?
Cheers TT
Patrick Turner
The problem is now that after fiddling with the panel i have just
completed
the EHT can be heard sputtering away at only 3kV, and sensitivity
is 77dB for 2.83Vrms input, so at present they are
at least 5dB below a Quad ESL63, maybe more, because some say '63 are
86dB for 2.83V.
Zin to the primary of the speaker is 50 ohms at 100hz down to 12 ohms at
1kHz,
and maximum Vin because of poor LF ability is about 20Vrms,
so actual maximum level available is too low.
EHT would be better if 5kV, and ther'd be an extra vital 9dB of
sensitivity.
Without the series R of 3 ohms at the tranny primary the Z falls to
about 4 ohms at
10kHz, and 1.5 ohms at 20kHz.
>
> Craig Brown who used to post here has a pair although he did not buy
> them as a kit.He uses a sub I put together using an RCF pro 15 inch
> woofer which works really well with them.
I am thinking a pair of bass speakers for 20Hz to 200Hz under each ESL
would be best.
I will split the panel open tomorrow and re-apply some conductive
coating as finely
as possible to see if that's the cause of the noise problem.
At 5kV its like rain on a tin roof.
Its become noisy at only 3kV.
And at 2kV, sensivity falls to 75dB.....
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
Frankly, I am very dissapointed for the $2,000 kit price.
Sensivity is attrocious and i cannot get the unit I have finished
to stop making lots of discharge noises, even at only 3kV EHT.
Sensitivity is only 77dB for 2.83v at 1 kHz.
2kV is OK, but sensivity falls another 2dB.
With 5kV maybe they'd just be below Quad ESL 63.
So an amp capable of 300 watts into 3 ohms is needed.
This means grunt for the top end is there, as well as the voltage
where Z is high, but the step up tranny saturates at too high an F,
and it needs at least twice the turns per volt.
I have addressed this problem with a 150uF in series with the input
tranny,
and damped the resulting peaked LF response at 70Hz because of the 32mH
of input inductance.
These speakers misbehave badly if allowed to have any high level signal
below 50Hz applied.
Pink noise testing without a blocking cap gave truly terrible
performance,
flapping membrane and saturating tranny, and not at a very loud level.
My advice now for anyone buying an ESL kit is to make sure that the
panels are
all assembled and have an unconditional warranty against noise and for
sensitivity for 2 years, and all the timber surround and box for
electronics should be supplied ready cut and needing only assembly.
Only ever buy from a maker where complete information about the response
of the finished panels
are given, impedance plots, and correct circuit information and
guranteed sensitivity.
Patrick Turner.
Peter Wieck
>
> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
Given your past posts in general and further posts in this thread, I
believe you are the victim of a faulty kit. Given that your experience
has repeated, it is likely in the design/ergonomics (not the design
principles).
Don't give up until the supplier makes good!
Peter Wieck
Wyncote, PA
west
Patrick: I miss my Acoustat 2+2s. The few things they did right, they did
very right. Mid range transparency, imaging, air, was an ethereal experience
for me that hence-forth hooked me into hi-end audio. The things that were
wrong, was having to keep my head in a sweet-spot vise, and occasional
beaming. These 8 foot goliaths were only a one man speaker taking away from
my ability to simultaneously share the experience with my wife and friends.
The only speaker that may come close, from my experience, are the original
Quads. However, it's difficult for me to invest in a 30 year old pair. I've
been searching for many years for something to duplicate that mid range
magic without having to pay a left mam. You don't suppose that these kit
speakers could fit the bill? They certainly look appealing. But, then again,
looks can be deceiving. Let me know dude, if you will, what your thoughts
are. Thanks.
west
TT
Ah I now see where you are coming from. This is exactly why
I wanted them assembled and *tested* by the manufacturer
before delivery to me.
I am very sorry to hear that you are having these problems
with them and if someone of your calibre has run into
trouble what hope as a mere "mug" got?
BTW if you have a flapping membrane then obviously the
tensioning was done incorrectly. The way it was
shown/demonstrated to me appeared to be very simple. IIRC
(from nearly 3 years ago) you have to use the "tension
gauge" Rob has made on the panels. Apparently (from I have
read) this is secret with Quad ESLs as well and why a
rebuilt ones usually sound better than they did originally -
accurate membrane panel tension. This was a big issue with
Peter Walker when he started manufacturing and trying to
quality control the product.
Have a chat to Rob MacKinlay I am sure you can get it
sorted.
Cheers TT
PS IMHO I do agree with your thoughts on the kit. They are
a little too basic for the average person. It would be like
giving someone a cup full of sand and a roll of wire and
some instructions of how to make a 300B tube ;-) The
results could vary widely.
Patrick Turner
I think the membrane coating is a problem, and as I have to apply it,
it's not the kit suppliers's fault, or problem, its on me to just get it
right.
I am not sure the density is correct.
I am never likely to agree I am a victim to a faulty kit until I really
proove it.
At this point in time I am not sure the kit supplier
could help me at all.
I am now looking for an alternative factory produced conductive membrane
someone told me about by phone this am.
Patrick Turner
After two successful attempts at tensioning the membrane
with strips of tape and a tension guage, the membrane tensioning
was right, and repeatable easily.
IIRC
> (from nearly 3 years ago) you have to use the "tension
> gauge" Rob has made on the panels.
Even with correct tension, "panel flap" is still possible.
Tensioning is easy to get even enough with the guage.
Apparently (from I have
> read) this is secret with Quad ESLs as well and why a
> rebuilt ones usually sound better than they did originally -
> accurate membrane panel tension. This was a big issue with
> Peter Walker when he started manufacturing and trying to
> quality control the product.
>
> Have a chat to Rob MacKinlay I am sure you can get it
> sorted.
Hmm, I am anthing but sure that taling to Rob will help.
Been there done that.
>
> Cheers TT
>
> PS IMHO I do agree with your thoughts on the kit. They are
> a little too basic for the average person. It would be like
> giving someone a cup full of sand and a roll of wire and
> some instructions of how to make a 300B tube ;-) The
> results could vary widely.
Or like me handing someone a stack of core material, a bobbin,
and some wire, and they can have a tube amp OPT without much trouble.
Like hell they could.
But other responses to my posts on the ESL-III B could be leading to a
way out
to the troubles I am having.
My research indicates the panels *SHOULD WORK OK* if constructed
properly. I have done enough research on theory to indicate
that the ERA panels should work OK, its just that when you DIY a pair,
you don't have the R&D the inventor used.
I am investigating a supply of alternative and better membrane material.
Patrick Turner.
TT
:
<snipped for readability>
: My research indicates the panels *SHOULD WORK OK* if
constructed
: properly. I have done enough research on theory to
indicate
: that the ERA panels should work OK, its just that when you
DIY a pair,
: you don't have the R&D the inventor used.
:
Cones are still looking prety good ATM IMHO ;-)
: I am investigating a supply of alternative and better
membrane material.
:
I believe the same stuff from ERA is also used in Quad ESL
restorations so it may not be a material issue.
: Patrick Turner.
Sorry I can't be of more help.
Regards TT
Sean
> I think the membrane coating is a problem, and as I have to apply it,
> it's not the kit suppliers's fault, or problem, its on me to just get it
> right.
>
> I am not sure the density is correct.
>
> I am never likely to agree I am a victim to a faulty kit until I really
> proove it.
> At this point in time I am not sure the kit supplier
> could help me at all.
>
> I am now looking for an alternative factory produced conductive membrane
> someone told me about by phone this am.
>
> Patrick Turner.
Patrick, Try This guy
http://www.quadesl.org/Area_51/area_51.html
He's based in Aus, and the prices are very reasonable.
The kit sounds like a bit of a nightmare. Maybe thats why its in kit form.
With patience your $2k would have bought a very nice set of second hand
ESL57.
Cheers
Sean
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
>
> I think the membrane coating is a problem, and as I have to apply it,
> it's not the kit suppliers's fault, or problem, its on me to just get it
> right.
>
> I am not sure the density is correct.
** Try using a bit less lime in the mix.
..... Phil
Patrick Turner
Nah, the lime content is just right, but the detergent%
to fatten up the mud to make laying the membrane needs correct
measurement :-)).
But I have since discovered a far worse phenomena about ESL kits
that may be far more difficult to prevent and evade.
Patrick Turner.
>
> ..... Phil
Patrick Turner
Not too many people who read these groups have experience with building
ESL
panel speakers either of their own design, or that of a kit supplier.
The problem of the crackles and noise after EHT supply was turned off
became
obvious when i dismantled the offending panel unit today.
On one of the bass sections in the panel, the membrane had become stuck
to the stator
and this seemed really odd because it had been turned off since last
night.
But why? it appears that if the EHT is raised considerably, say to 5kV
then the membrane can decide to simply swing to one or the other
stators.
Nothing keeps the membrane central between two stators except its
tension.
The electrostatic force depends on the square of the distance between
the charged objects.
This means that if very slightly different forces exist from membrane to
each stator in the idle condition
then the membrane will be slightly off centre, but
the tension keeps the opposing force difference nulled, and the membrane
stays nearly central.
Small distance movements are very linear because the are small, and 2H
cancels.
When a large bass signal voltage is applied, the -ve membrane can move
further than 2mm,
and when than happens, you can have a much bigger increasing force of
attraction
to one +ve going stator than is the force of repulsion by the -ve going
stator.
And the as the distance reduces between stator and membrane
where there is attraction, a huge increase in force occurs, and the
membrane
slams tight against the stator, and despite consequent voltage phase
change to the stator signal voltage,
the membrane does not want to let go, and will stay stuck.
Nobody I know explains why the membrane stays put after PS turn off, and
after discharge,
or exactly what I need to do about it,
but I know this shit happens not just to me.
I just had a long chat with a guy who specialises in repairs of Quad
ESL,
and after I explained the noises I was getting after turn off he said
I had this problem of "stiction" something that is not referred to in
the
instruction manuals from ERA.
My mentor repairist said he had witnessed the same problem in Quad ESL
speakers,
and that the membrane sticks so tight, like shrink wrap, that it must be
physically
pushed off the stator, which I was able to do with smooth bent piece of
copper wire
poked through slots in the stator to which the membrane was stuck.
So the response tests I made are all meaningless if I had a stuck
membrane to one bass panel.
More wasted time and effort.
Before finding out this unpleasant behavioural problem affecting all
ESL, i suspected I had too thin a conductive coating, or one which
wasn't evenly establishing itself after turn on, or evenly
un-establishing itself
at turn off, so I have applied a second thin coating, so as to get more
even cover,
rather like using two thin coats of paint to paint over a strong colour
rather than use one thick coat which invariably will not
cover evenly.
My mentor says this is likely to make things worse.
Hmm, he knows how cause depression, anyway, we'll see when i fire them
up again in 2 days,
but I won'r be trying to use -5,000V for the EHT.
I'd sure like to use 5,000V.
The speakers work with only low EHT.
Yesterday I made measurements of sensivity
which indicated it varied nearly proportionaly to the EHT applied
while keeping the ac voltage constant.
In this case the signal was pink noise of 15Hz to 30kHz BW.
The filter after the amplified mic signal was set at 1kHz, and then the
response plotted.
So that with -1,000V, I got a reference 0dB SPL, and at 2,000V, SPL
went up +5dB, and response variation was the same for all F, and
at 3,000V it was 7.5dB, and at 4,000 it was +9dB,
and only minor response changes. So 5,000V would have brought perhaps
another dB.
So I cannot see that I can realise the same sensitivity as Quad ESL63
which are rated officially at 85dB, but some say 86, some say 82, sine
wave input and
if I can only use 1/2 the EHT that Quad use, ie about -2,500V,
I can only expect sensitivity of about 78 dB for 2.83V input, sine wave,
so for what I think is the safe maximum signal level of 28Vrms,
maximum SPL would be 98dB at 1kHz, but certainly not at 100Hz or lower.
My customer has amps capable of 14V into 12ohms which is the 1 khz Z.
So he'll only get a maximal 15V into 16 ohms, or about 92dB maximum SPL.
Average listening levels could only be at about 82dB, where
the average signal voltage would be 4.4Vrms before clipping became very
obvious.
Since the Z of the ESL-IIIB falls from 12 ohms at 1kHz to 4 ohms at
10kHz, and lower above that,
the amp would be somewhat over taxed at an average of only 82dB.
At presenr higher SPLs are much more easily obtained using Vienna
Acoustic Motzart dynamic speakers.
3.5uM thick polyester used for ERA membranes is the same thickness as
used in Quad ESL 63.
This thickness gives the best HF extension.
Quad ESL 57 use 6uM for the mid/treble centre panels
and 12uM for the two outer bass panels.
However, Quad ESL63 use much more tension than recommended by ERA.
ERA say tension panels by applying 0.8Kg for each 60mm along each of the
4 sides of the panel.
My mentor says Quad use 2.5Kg along each 60mm, or 3 times the tension.
The ERA bass panels have a pronounced bass panel resonance at around 32
Hz and my mentor says
Quad's bass panel Fo is at 50Hz. It means you throw away some possible
bass extension to
get less tendency for stiction to occur.
Quad use a nylon coating to each side of the membrane, and the
resistance of the coating
is much higher than offered by ERA, thousands of megohms "per square"
and
pppl building this gear need to search for what that means.
But coating resistance cannot be measured using a normal DVM with a
range up to say 50Mohms.
So I could be wrong on this one because I cannot confirm an assumed fact
with
a measurement.
So if you cannot measure the R, then its hit and miss about quality;
what hope has any
diyer got?
So because my ERA recommended tension is 3 times less than on a Quad
ESL63 speaker,
I cannot use too high an EHT, for doing so promotes the likehood of this
stiction shit thing happening,
and I can only guess that about 2,500V is the limit.
The speakers still work when a large fraction of a bass panel membrane
area remains stuck to a stator.
ERA recommend using the anti-resonant node points consisting of dobs of
silicone between one stator
and membrane, but I don't think this could prevent stiction.
So I would have to assume a few speakers are out there and stuck, and
the owners never
wonder why there is so little bass, never question the not so hot sound,
they always knew they'd be a bit bass free.
I suspected Quad ESL57 would have freedon from stiction, but 'tis not so
my mentor says;
he has seen examples of it happening. The stators of Quad57 are 2mm
thick perforated plastic plates,
and the actual stator is an applied coat of conducting paint on the
outside only of the stator,
so the membrane can only move 2mm max from centre, and move no closer
than 2mm away
from the stator.
But if it does not stop stiction, then if I glued strips of plastic
across the
ESL-IIIB stators 0.5mm thick to keep the membrane off the stator
surface it cannot be expected to work 100% of the time.
And some form of input voltage limiting will be needed. Maybe only one
burst of
excessive input voltage is all that's needed to make the stiction occur.
This all leads me futher to limiting F input to these simplisticly
designed speakers to
200Hz and using a bass reflex box.
This should raise the undistorted ceiling for remaining frequencies.
My customer likes the bass speakers I make, and one does not have to try
hard to make
better bass than what is possible from an electrostatic alone.
This would leave the ESL to better perform on the mid and treble F.
My 2 cents worth...
Patrick Turner.
TT
>
> Not too many people who read these groups have experience
> with building
> ESL
> panel speakers either of their own design, or that of a
> kit supplier.
>
> My 2 cents worth...
>
> Patrick Turner.
Ahhhhh......... that all makes sense now. You have really
done an excellent job of detailing all the pitfalls with
these things and it is a real pity you had to go through all
the dramas. As I said before I have spent time evaluating
these speakers and have seriously considered them as a
viable project once more time becomes available. So a big
thanks, I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
now ;-)
BTW after reading what you wrote I just wonder how many
people will start sticking bits of copper wire through ESL
stators with the power still turned on? :-))
Cheers TT
Tonni
> sticking bits of copper wire through ESL stators with the power still
> turned on? :-))
BBQ??? ;-)
/Tonni
Patrick Turner
TT wrote:
>
> "Patrick Turner" <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:462373E6...@turneraudio.com.au...
> >
> > Not too many people who read these groups have experience
> > with building
> > ESL
> > panel speakers either of their own design, or that of a
> > kit supplier.
> >
> <snipped long involved explanation>
>
> > My 2 cents worth...
> >
> > Patrick Turner.
>
> Ahhhhh......... that all makes sense now. You have really
> done an excellent job of detailing all the pitfalls with
> these things and it is a real pity you had to go through all
> the dramas. As I said before I have spent time evaluating
> these speakers and have seriously considered them as a
> viable project once more time becomes available. So a big
> thanks, I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
> now ;-)
Well maybe I coax some performance if I can iron out the bugs.
If I stop the membrane stiction and discharges, and limit all the
voltages,
and use a full range dynamic woofer, maybe use more "node point" damper
blobs of silicone,
maybe it all works OK.
My customer has a sub able to go to 22hz and could go to 1kHz.
But perhaps it could be used to get to say 200Hz, and have the panels
used for above that but
I don't know how well that will work.
The sub would have its own amp as now, but the amp system becomes a
bi-amp system, not one amp plus sub.
A filter to keep out F below 200Hz from main mid/treble tube amps would
effectively
raise their voltage ceiling 6dB, not to be sneezed at.
Also, I have found another way to configure these SEUL amp OPTs I built
in 1997
to have an additional useful load match to about 12 ohms.
I need higher voltage, not high current at F between 200Hz and 2kHz,
and the NFB should push the amp into making the little bit of music
signal power above 2kHz into the lower Z, without the output voltage
sagging too badly,
just like what Quad II manages to do when driving the similar Z as
ESL57.
Quad II amps have Rout = 9 ohms when there is no global NFB.
Its the global NFB that enable the low Z load voltage to be maintained.
The amp will never experience huge signals at 10kHz.
If you ever have set your system up with busy music at loud levels,
and you disconnect the mid and bass units, so only sound above 3kHz
is heard, you'll think something is wrong, its such a small signal.
This tiny bit of signal is essential, but its able to be handled
even with low Z speakers. Where crossover is at 5 or 7kHz, things are
even quieter.
> BTW after reading what you wrote I just wonder how many
> people will start sticking bits of copper wire through ESL
> stators with the power still turned on? :-))
They would sure get a zap and a half
if some heavey metal recording was playing full tilt, and they
touched the stators while being connected to the
common 0V rail. But this would be unlikely.
The body's arm to arm resistance of 30k across the secondary
of the input tranny would reflect a load of 3 ohms to the amp,
and possibly blow a protection circuit.
But the HV zap would maybe give you a reflex action to make you kick the
speaker out a window,
send yourself across the room and then collapsing onto the tube
amp......
The cat would definitely run away frightened to under a bed somewhere...
But shock could only be from the stators, not from the membrane, which
does have a HV connected,
but the current from it is extremely low.
The problem with many kits is that they cannot sell many unless the
price
seems very low compared to the fully manufactured and promoted product,
and usually the kit seller hasn't done the full bore research and
factual presentation
which takes all his sundays and holiday time for several years.
Peter Walker was the REAL MASTER.
After looking around the world at small time builders of ESL speakers,
there is little information about whatever ppl are making.
There are very few test results of what happens in arduous signal
conditions.
There's a lot of pride in ppl's efforts, fine, but
one has to know more before spending....
I cannot think of anyone who shows he understands the electronics fully.
One guy made panels about 2M x 1.2M and sure, there would be enough
bass.
Sure they'll beam a lot. What big beams you have sir!
Sit anywhere, you will be within sir's big beams....
The input transformer to drive such a panel
was rather a large lump of iron.
Great, a step in the right direction for sure.
This allows the use of fewer turns of wire, and plenty
of room for nice thick insulation to keep the capacitances low, and
never suffer
transformer arcing, very likely if thin insulation is used.
A big core also makes room for interleaving to keep leakage inductances
low enough,
and without increasing capacitance too much.
Ah, but ppl tend to avoid the weight, the turns, the interleaving,
and they forget capacitances....and don't even varnish their trannies,
let alone pot them in modified beeswax like Quad.
Alas, there are no details of the turns in the transformer, so if you
want to
have one wound, you can't unless you know all about how to do it
yourself.
I'm lucky I do, and can smile at some efforts i see.....
If you try to make an amplifier drive such a huge panel as one
large full range type, then the load is true terror for most amps,
so one guy designs an able able to handle huge capacitances....
Lots and lots of bjts.....
I decided not to bother with secrets, and composed an 18MB website.
Patrick Turner.
>
> Cheers TT
west
>
> > Patrick:
> >
> > No to your direct question. However, those that I know who have made
> > Electrostatic speakers from kits and/or repaired them by installing
> > new diaphrams have had mixed results. Those with fine hands, infinite
> > patience and the innate capacity to peel a raisin with pleasure tend
> > to do quite well.
>
> I have a high skill level, and I am the sort of technician well able to
> "peel a raisin".
> After the second attempt to build a working panel I am beginning
> to think it is impossible to get any sort of good performance.
>
> Patrick Turner.
Patrick: I miss my Acoustat 2+2s. The few things they did right, they did
very right. Mid range transparency, imaging, air, was an ethereal experience
for me that hence-forth hooked me into hi-end audio. The things that were
wrong, was having to keep my head in a sweet-spot vise, and occasional
beaming. These 8 foot goliaths were only a one man speaker taking away from
my ability to simultaneously share the experience with my wife and friends.
The only speaker that may come close, from my experience, are the original
Quad 57s. However, it's difficult for me to invest in a 30 year old pair.
TT
"west" <rest...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:RvPUh.1972$xP.372@trnddc04...
panels are certainly equal to Quads although IME with the
older model MLs the woofer integration was something to be
desired :-( BTW when I listen to them they were being
driven by an Atmasphere Tube amp as well.
I am led to believe the latest offerings from ML have the
bugs ironed out. I am yet to hear for myself.
Cheers TT
TT
"Tonni" <ha...@hardware.dk> wrote in message
news:46239fbd$0$8206$edfa...@dread14.news.tele.dk...
:> BTW after reading what you wrote I just wonder how many
Ever watched a moth in a bug zapper ;-)
TT
west
"TT" <TTence...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4623ff2d$1...@quokka.wn.com.au...
I reside. If you hear the new MLs, perhaps you can let me know your
thoughts. I would like to ask you 2 questions: Have you ever auditioned the
CLS speakers and what do you think of Maggies, now that you have a hint of
my tastes.
Cordially,
west
Jeßus
> I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
> now ;-)
Ditto. It seems like all I read about these types of speakers is grief
and pain. I think I'll steer well clear of the buggers now and forever!
TT
:
: : > > west
: > >
: > Have you had a good look at Martin Logans? Their ESL
: > panels are certainly equal to Quads although IME with
the
: > older model MLs the woofer integration was something to
be
: > desired :-( BTW when I listen to them they were being
: > driven by an Atmasphere Tube amp as well.
: >
: > I am led to believe the latest offerings from ML have
the
: > bugs ironed out. I am yet to hear for myself.
: >
: > Cheers TT
: >
: Hey TT, thanks for the comeback. Hi-end shops are far and
few between where
: I reside.
Believe me I know how you feel. True high end shops are few
and far between everywhere and I have to do a lot of
travelling or visit friends that have the gear.
: If you hear the new MLs, perhaps you can let me know your
: thoughts.
It could be a little while ;-)
I would like to ask you 2 questions: Have you ever
auditioned the
: CLS speakers
I am unfamiliar with the term. Is it a name, brand or type?
Perhaps a link to clarify?
: and what do you think of Maggies,
I have been looking for some to listen to for years and have
just about given up trying :-(
: now that you have a hint of
: my tastes.
Here is something that may intrigue you.
IMHO ribbon technology matched to good cone drivers is the
way to go. I was very impressed when I heard these and they
combine the ESL uncoloured sound but with cone bass punch.
Also no cabinet resonance problems either ;-)
:
: Cordially,
: west
:
Now you have a hint of my taste ;-) The singularly most
disappointing aspect of any ESL is their lack of bass punch
and very poor SPLs. I do not wish to start any arguments
with anyone here but all I can say is if anyone thinks ESLs
aren't as I describe them then they do not attend live
venues.
Here is another speaker I am very impressed with
http://www.genesisloudspeakers.com/prd_1p1.html although I
am only familiar with the 1.0 version. Unfortunately these
are a little out of most people's price range ;-) A friend
of mine has owned a set of these for years and I am always
amazed at what they can do.
Again, ribbon hybrid technology ;-)
Cheers TT
Patrick Turner
Last time I listened to the smaller 4' high ML with dynamic woofer
it was at a hi-fi shop and they played a CD of the opera Carmen, and
used a soid state amp. I thought the massed strings were the best
reproduction I'd ever heard.
Years later I built dynamic speakers which I thought could compete
with anything using top range dynamic SEAS drivers and boxes 20dB better
than any of the commercial
junk in the shops.
Trying to get the EAR speakers to equal what I have become routinely
used to
every day is a very tall order.
As you know, if you have read my recent other posts about ERA, the
bass membranes can become stuck to the stator, stiction I call it,
and so I may have to severly limit their abilities, ie,
just convert to ML ideology, and forget trying vainly for
any ESL bass below about 200Hz, and then just use the ERA for
mid and treble. Perhaps when the sound is unmuddied by the presence of
bass
and stiction won't occur because there would be no large membrane
movements,
I might just have a nice sounding panel speaker even though
it will need lots of voltage to drive it.
A guy in the UK has built these speakers and he tells me they are
less sensitive than either Quad ESL57 or 63.
He says he's tried 6kV EHT without trouble, and that 16 watts is enough,
but he also sells the kits, and I am immune to sales BS.
If I find I cannot use 6kV, and must use 2.5kV, the speakers become at
least 7dB less efficient,
which places them a LOT less sensitive then Quads, or the dynamics i am
used to.
The last tests of performance were done with a bass panel
stuck to a stator while I wasn't aware of it.
The speaker worked, but obviously any response measurements or
sensitivity
would not be correct.
ERA instructions include a layout for 10 small blobs of silicone to be
applied
in a line along the panels between one stator and the membrane on the
non-conductive coated side.
I cannot see how such measures can stop membrane stiction.
The problem of stiction is simply not mentioned in the ERA assembly
manual.
Without bass there would be much less membrane travel, and should help
to stop it,
and allow greater ceiling for the mid/treble.
One guy also from the UK emailed me saying he had a 15" open baffle
speaker for the bass.
Such a speaker is much more likely to handle
high levels of 50Hz notes without membrane flapping between stators or
causing transformer
saturations.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
I have not finished yet.
I may be able to overcome most of the problems I am encountering.
I am simply letting folks know what troubles they could expect
while building them. If built as well as other renowned ESL
they should perform as well. Just remeber a new pair of Quad ESL
is going to cost $14,000 or some silly amount.
So things could be a lot worse!
Patrick Turner.
west
"TT" <TTencerN...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:462436e8$1...@quokka.wn.com.au...
TT: I will check out your links. Meanwhile, here's the link you asked about
re Martin Logan's CLS.
The original CLS was considerably less expensive.
west
>
>
west
Patrick: How and where can you buy a new pair of Quad ELS. Are they like
the original 57s?
BTW: you didn't (not that you have to) answer my query re my 2+2s under west
Subject:: " Re: ER Audio ESL speaker kits." Date: Monday, April 16, 2007
2:46 PM
TT
:
: Patrick: How and where can you buy a new pair of Quad
ELS.
http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/ranges.php?sector_id=3&range_id=8
: Are they like
: the original 57s?
No. The 988 is essentially a 63 and the 989 is a 988 with a
larger bass panel.
Cheers TT
west
TT
: TT: Sorry I omitted the lick. Here it is:
: http://www.avrev.com/news/0702/16.martinlogan.shtml
:
:
Thanks, that makes a little more sense.
I came very, very close to buying these
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/Magazine/equipment/1203/martinloganclarity.htm
a few years ago after they were lent to me for about 2
weeks. The lack of bass punch was almost overlooked because
of their mids and highs.
http://www.avrev.com/equip/martinloganprodigy/index.html the
same guy had these as well but the bass IMHO was too boomy.
Oh well you can't get it right all the time ;-)
Cheers TT
Mike Coatham
But they (the 988 and 989) are old hat now. What about the latest 2805 and 2905 models? I think these might be the ones PT was
referring to.
See: http://www.quad-hifi.co.uk/ranges.php?sector_id=1&PHPSESSID=deec4618b7426bb1aef8ce89de454e8d
jtde...@westnet.com.au
I have almost bought one of these kits-on several occasions.
With the right amplifier,room,subwoofer and music they can sound
superb.Sometimes I have listened to them and thought they were
fantastic and other times they sounded quite odd.I'm not sure why this
is,but suspect that they take some getting used to.
I really think trying to get decent bass from a bit of very thin Mylar
with minimal excursion is like pushing the proverbial uphill,and that
stats or ribbons are probably best left to cover the area above 200Hz.
My advice is not to judge these untill you have heard them with an
appropriate sub.If you can find an RCF L15/554K 15 inch woofer and put
it in a 100 litre box fed by a subwoofer amp you have a chance of
really enjoying these speakers.I know this makes a huge difference and
is the ONLY sub I have heard that integrates well with them-although
other high sensitivity short excursion pro type woofers might also
work well.
I bought an ERA reconditioning kit for some B&W DM70Cs-but after all
your problems am now really nervous about going ahead with rebuilding
the stat panels in them.
JT
TT
"Mike Coatham" <coa...@es.co.nz> wrote in message
news:f02477$4h1$1...@lust.ihug.co.nz...
minutes ;-) Back in the Peter Walker days the models stayed
the same for decades at a time ;-)
Seriously now, I was still technically right - you can still
buy new Quad ESLs today. Also with Quad now making cone
speakers it is hard for the casually interested to keep
track of the model numbering system e.g 57,63, 988, 989,
2805, 2905 and what ever else they have.
Cheers TT
TT
<jtde...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:1176806273.1...@b58g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
JT
You will just have to drag out those big horns and get them
going instead ;-)
Cheers TT
Patrick Turner
> > Again, ribbon hybrid technology ;-)
> >
> > Cheers TT
>
> TT: I will check out your links. Meanwhile, here's the link you asked about
> re Martin Logan's CLS.
> The original CLS was considerably less expensive.
>
> west
West, but where oh where is the link?
Meanwhile if you were looking to buy ESL57,
you could consider those listed at
http://www.quad-musik.de/html/quad_esl57.html
Patrick Turner.
jtde...@westnet.com.au
> <jtdesi...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
Terry,
You think my horns are big-you should check out-
www.lenard audio.com/main/051opal
Australian made horns using two 27 inch woofers per box.
I could just see them in your longe room!
JT
TT
<jtde...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:1176807911.3...@p77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Terry,
www.lenard audio.com/main/051opal
JT
I'm sorry but the link you supplied doesn't seem to work.
http://www.lenardaudio.com/main/051_opal_const.html this
one will http://tinyurl.com/3y7kzr
But here is biiiiiiigggggger speaker
http://www.royaldevice.com/custom.htm
Cheers Terry
Patrick Turner
west wrote:
>
> "Patrick Turner" <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:46243FC0...@turneraudio.com.au...
> >
> >
> > Jeßus wrote:
> > >
> > > On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:50:23 +0800, TT wrote:
> > >
> > > > I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
> > > > now ;-)
> > >
> > > Ditto. It seems like all I read about these types of speakers is grief
> > > and pain. I think I'll steer well clear of the buggers now and forever!
> >
> > I have not finished yet.
> >
> > I may be able to overcome most of the problems I am encountering.
> >
> > I am simply letting folks know what troubles they could expect
> > while building them. If built as well as other renowned ESL
> > they should perform as well. Just remeber a new pair of Quad ESL
> > is going to cost $14,000 or some silly amount.
> > So things could be a lot worse!
> >
> > Patrick Turner.
>
> Patrick: How and where can you buy a new pair of Quad ELS. Are they like
> the original 57s?
Gee you are behind the times I think.
Have a look at the Quad website.
The whole history of Quad and its speaker building activities, and those
of
the german Braun company who made Quad stuff under license
is in many websites.
Please be so kind to perform your own Googling.
Patrick Turner.
atec77'
but a couple of years back I saw a bloke piss on one of the fences ( a
steel one) we had the cattle stopper on at the time :)
Patrick Turner
jtde...@westnet.com.au wrote:
>
> On Apr 17, 11:31 am, Patrick Turner <i...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
> > Jeßus wrote:
> >
> > > On Mon, 16 Apr 2007 22:50:23 +0800, TT wrote:
> >
> > > > I think you have effectively cured me of this idea
> > > > now ;-)
> >
> > > Ditto. It seems like all I read about these types of speakers is grief
> > > and pain. I think I'll steer well clear of the buggers now and forever!
> >
> > I have not finished yet.
> >
> > I may be able to overcome most of the problems I am encountering.
> >
> > I am simply letting folks know what troubles they could expect
> > while building them. If built as well as other renowned ESL
> > they should perform as well. Just remeber a new pair of Quad ESL
> > is going to cost $14,000 or some silly amount.
> > So things could be a lot worse!
> >
> > Patrick Turner.
>
> I have almost bought one of these kits-on several occasions.
> With the right amplifier,room,subwoofer and music they can sound
> superb.Sometimes I have listened to them and thought they were
> fantastic and other times they sounded quite odd.I'm not sure why this
> is,but suspect that they take some getting used to.
Depends on levels used somewhat.
>
> I really think trying to get decent bass from a bit of very thin Mylar
> with minimal excursion is like pushing the proverbial uphill,and that
> stats or ribbons are probably best left to cover the area above 200Hz.
No, I think ESL can excel if bass panels are large enough.
If you speak to ppl with stacked ESL57, you will find they say there
is more bass.
A panel 0.55M wide by 1.2M high has a cut off due to bipolar
cancellations
that must be a fairly high F. So below 50Hz the large ESL excursions are
in vain.
Better a dynamic for low bass.
> My advice is not to judge these untill you have heard them with an
> appropriate sub.If you can find an RCF L15/554K 15 inch woofer and put
> it in a 100 litre box fed by a subwoofer amp you have a chance of
> really enjoying these speakers.
Why such a huge bass driver and box?
I have 200mm dia Al coned SEAS bass units with 55L and bottom end
22Hz to 250Hz is fabulous.
> I know this makes a huge difference and
> is the ONLY sub I have heard that integrates well with them-although
> other high sensitivity short excursion pro type woofers might also
> work well.
>
> I bought an ERA reconditioning kit for some B&W DM70Cs-but after all
> your problems am now really nervous about going ahead with rebuilding
> the stat panels in them.
The biggest hurdle seems to be stiction of the membrane to the stators,
and hardly anyone would think it possible to happen, so they wouldn't
look for it. i didn't, and once i have addressed this problem then
maybe they work a lot better, and the theoretical excellent performance
might be realized.
I think perhaps a regulated EHT supply is BS. If a membrane touches a
stator plate,
or becomes stuck to it, as I found happens all too easily,
then you'd want the EHT to be able to sag rather than forcing a
a continuous discharge from stuck membrane to stator.
Be careful with tensioning. My repair expert mentor says
the ESL63 tension is 3 times that used by ERA, and stiction is all the
more unlikely;
the Quad membranes are just not so floppy.
This results in a higher natural membrane resonance above the 32 Hz of
the ERA units,
and therefore less extended bass, but as i said, extended bass with a
small
panel width could be impossible.
Patrick Turner.
> JT
Patrick Turner
steve...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Hello Patrick & Others,
>
> This is my first time on this forum...
>
> JT forwarded this thread to me about your problems with the ER Audio
> ESL-3 kit electrostatic. Firstly, let me sympathise with you on the
> problems you are having with getting these speakers to sound right -
> DIY can be very frustrating and time consuming. However, my advice to
> you is keep perservering ...the ESL-3 is an awesome speaker! Talk to
> Rob Mackinlay the designer, he's a helluva a nice guy and extremely
> patient and clear in his verbal communications. Rob's a Mechanical
> Engineer by trade and a very knowledegeable guy, the speaker business
> is a sideline/hobby for him but he genuinely wants all his customers
> to be happy.
I am perservering alright.
I know Rob is a true gentleman, and he'd benefit from my electronic
ideas about how his speakers work, and what can be done to improove
them.
As you say, his credentials are in mechanical engineering,
but not in electronics, and some aspects of the step up transformer
he supplied in the kits and the working of the crossovers
need to be improved IMHO.
> I own a ready-built pair of Rob's ESL-3 and have had them for about 5
> years with NONE of the problems that you have mentioned.
Ready builts are different to kits. The hard work has been done for you.
I am having troubles with the kits as supplied.
Colin Topps, the uk sales rep for ERA contacted me privately after I
placed a message
on the news groups and no doubt
Rob and Colin are now watching me like a hawk and would hope that I
don't try to publically
share all my problems on news groups as i proceed with construction of
what should have been more
easy and successful.
Colin tried to provide a solution, but apparently he is technically
illiterate, and tonight after several emails he told me to sod off in no
uncertain manner.
I felt he couldn't comprehend my stated technical arguments and
calculations involved to
show he didn't have a clue how the panels actually worked, and didn't
appreciate
that careful measurements are part and parcel of getting the best from
speakers.
Guessing an engineering solution isn't my style.
I hope Colin opens his mind in the fullness of time.
I have now have no avenue to try be diplomatic with ppl who cannot take
a slight amount of criticism.
The Colins of this world don't worry me though.
Salesmen should never get angry when anyone they meet does not believe
them in their
claims about the product they want to sell.
So all I can say to everyone reading in the UK, if you disagree with
Colin Topps,
he will tell you to sod off. Good salesman are +20dB more diplomatic,
and cannot ever
utter the words "sod off", because it always reduces respect from the
people
interested in the product and reduces respect of those selling it, and
anyone witnessing the encounter
would be peeved, and think Colin needs some further education in
customer relations
and how to win friends and influence them positively, even if no
solution is immediately
forthcoming from their brain.
I doubt Rob would have a solution to my ELECTRO MECHANICAL ENGINEERING
problem of the bass membrane sticking to a stator
and staying stuck there, and while the membrane is stuck to a stator,
there
are discharge noises if the EHT is above 3,000V, because there is
leakage
THROUGH the 3.5uM membrane to one stator on the other side.
Perhaps if the stator material was changed and of different design, ie,
just like Quad57,
the problem would be less likely. But that'd mean much more drive
voltage, needing
a higher input tranny ratio, and it all becomes more costly to
implement.
Because I was not expecting such a problem to occur, I wasn't looking
for it.
But I sure found it 12 hours after turning off the EHT supply and
dismantling the panel
into its two halves; 70% of a bass membrane area remained sucked against
the stator
and I had to spring it free with a bent piece of smooth copper wire
poked through the
stator slots carefully lest I puncture the membrane.
I mentioned my initial bothers a fortnight ago, but there was no
solution offered
after describing my symptoms.
Because of so much arcing and noise at such low EHT voltages, and
because
arcs were visible at random places in the middle areas af bass panels
and stators,
I concluded the so called "special" powder coating on the stators
was anything but special. It looked like very cheap thin powder coating
to me.
So I confered with a chemist and HV expert who recommended Isonel 642, a
varnish
which stops coronas and discharges. I applied two generous coats to the
inside areas of the stators, and when I replaced the membrane again and
tied turning up
the EHT to 5.4kV, there was no more discharge noise.
But stiction occurred soon, and as I have explained.
I'd rather go public about all this, and have the whole world better
able to handle building the kits.
I believe they are basically good gear if made to work according to
design theory.
Rob is obviously a very busy man, and I sure don't want to
burden him with the problem of stiction in his kit panels.
Suely I couldn't be the only person who has had trouble building a kit.
Perhaps Rob will have to have a few words here.
Its a splendid opportunity to publicise his product.
He will be covered in mud thrown by many, but I cop heaps sometimes, and
It doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother anyone else!
> Yes, if you
> overdrive them with rock-n-roll bass they bottom out and sound
> distressed, but so does every other ESL I've heard or owned including
> Quad/ML/Acoustat.
My customer for whom I have been contracted to
build these kits never wants to drive these speakers to ear crushing
levels.
I have been cordially invited to his place for many listening sessions,
and heard excellent complex orchestral sound from his system
with Vienna Acoustic Motzart dynamic speakers plus sub-woofer.
We hope to get something special from the ESL, and perhaps it will
eventually be
like having another very drinkable wine, each with its wonders for the
pallette,
different but both very drinkable.
Some of my customers enjoy aquiring MORE than one system, or having
alternatives
to use. They certainly have more than one recording, so why not more
than one system?
I have two main systems, plus kitchen radio, and workshop system.
Let there be DIVERSITY!!
Unfortunately, I auditioned the first panel I have made last saturday,
and without knowing of the stiction bother. Sound was dreadful
compared to my dynamic speakers which have SEAS drivers like the
Viennas,
but much better boxes and are 3 way, and genuinely full range.
Speakers seemed to clip at very moderate levels, exacerbated by the
50 watt amp clipping at its 21Vrms output limit ( for 8 ohms )
I have a working and definately OK Quad ESL57 panel here and it was much
better
than the ERA in all parameters, sonically and technically.
My customer felt we should abandon the project.
I said no, lets see what other people who have tried to build the kits
have found.
A pooling of knowlege is required, IMHO.
> The ESL-3 (when built properly) is not particularly
> power hungry either.
They are not below 12 ohms between 70Hz and 1kHz, so the main power band
is very
easily driven but even our beloved Colin of the UK mentioned
the sensitivity was below Quad 57 and 63.
I found it low, but then I had a stuck bass panel.
I based my 0dB measurement at 1kHz, mainly catered for by the mid/treble
centre strip,
Anyway, sure, they are insensitive.
Sensitivity varies with EHT voltage, and if I cannot have EHT up where I
want it,
sensitivity becomes very poor indeed.
Because the Z varies so greatly, its silly to think in terms of SPL per
watt at 1M.
Its better to think in terms of SPL for input voltage of 2.83Vrms, which
is one watt into 8 ohms,
but where Z = 50 ohms, its only 0.16 watts.
But above 1kHz, like nearly all ESL, the Z drops to typically
less than 2 ohms at 20kHz.
This means that its would be impossible for most amps to maintain
the same unclipped maximum level as they do with 8 ohms at 1kHz.
But in music, energies above 5khz amount to a tiny % of the total signal
voltage.
So the amplifier need only be able to make a small voltage into the
lower value RL.
As long as the current required for the small HF signals isn't
huge, and it normally won't be compared to 1kHz signals,
then the amp will happily cope with the varying speaker Z
IF THERE IS NFB TO MAKE THE OUTPUT IMPEDANCE BELOW 0.5 OHMS.
The NFB forces the amp to make whatever current is required.
Low power Quad-II amps happily cope with giving the
required constant voltage to feed the very variable ESL impedance
in order to get a flat response with music.
This is also the case with sine waves, as long as the
voltage level remains fairly low, perhaps below 5Vrms,
which is nearly 15 watts into 2 ohms.
So a Quad-II can power a 57 to 20kHz if the
voltage never rises above 5V.
Of course with music, voltages above 5khz are very low, and won't be up
to 5V very often,
meanwhile, musical output voltages will be high for F between 100Hz and
1kHz.
but Z is also high, so currents are within the amp's abilities of
between 1 and 2 amps rms,
depending on loads.
If the speaker Z were low at LF and high at HF, ie, the reverse of the
case
of ESL, then indeed such speakers would present a far more difficult job
for
the amplifier.
> They just need the right kind of high current
> amplification.
This isn't really the case as I have explained above.
The amplifier need only be able to provide enough current
at all F into loads used, and poor current abilities from tube amps
compared to many SS amps does not mean you won't get good sound from
a tube amp of only 2peak amps maximum.
What is needed is the low Rout of the amp due to NFB
because anything with higher Rout will allow a roll off of the upper
audio F.
> I sucessfully ran them for a few years with a Nelson
> Pass Aleph 3 (a 30w/ch Class A doubling amp) and even things like a
> NAD 3020 @ 25w/ch or a Lux 507x @ 50w/ch has no trouble on them. The
> amp just needs to be current capable with sturdy power supplies. I
> also use and like digital amps from Bel Canto and B&O ICE module based
> amps on them. Valves are out though - no valve amp I have tried up to
> 160w/ch has ever been happy.
I recently sold a tube amp
to a guy in melbourne who runs 3 stacked pairs of Quad ESL57.
The amp reamins happy, and the 3 parallel 57 have a theoretically
attrocious Z profile.
The amp copes well, and sure, its gutsy with 4 x KT90 per channel,
and 100watt capable into 4 ohms.
Our beloved Colin from the UK said he used an 845 based 16 watt SET amp
with
his ESL III without problems.
Probably he likes very low levels.
I briefly tried a 300watt SS mosfet based amp I built and the result was
a lot better
than the 50 watter, but as i said, it was with a stuck panel,
and speaker distortion spoiled the sound, even though the amp never went
near clipping.
Its sometimes nice to have a current ability of about 30 amps before
current limiting
prevents more, but the 300 watt amp can make about 44Vrms, 8 ohms,
probably
46vrms into 16 ohms, so the lower F can get a lot of drive at low
current if needed.
very few SS amps are designed for 16 ohms. But they ought to be for ESL
like the IIIB and Quad 57. if they can manage 10 watts into 2 ohms
without blowing up
they will power most ESL with most music signals.
>
> As you can see from the following link of my audio system:
>
> http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&view
>
> I have tried basically all the speaker technologies out there from
> Quads-Apogees-Proacs-Jamo Concert 8-Yamaha NS1000 Berylliums-Accutons-
> Raven Ribbons-Seas Excel Magnesiums-Edgar Horns-Goodmans Axiom 80-
> Fostex etc... etc... ad nauseum. Take it from me, the ER Audio ESL-3
> is at the top of the loudspeaker tree when it comes to ultimate detail
> retrieval and transparency! NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING ...I have ever
> heard in any audio shop or any audiophile's house gives the micro-
> dynamic detail of the ESL-3. If anything else you have listened to is
> an optical microscope's view on the music, the ESL-3 is like an
> ELECTRON MICROSCOPE !! Things are just that much more resolved,
> nuanced and unfettered(free sounding).
Well, after trying every girl from the School of Cookery,
you should have a good idea who cooks the best dinner.
My customer and I have some distance to travel before
we agree with you choice of cook.
She is being a little bitch at present, and needs some
further training.
>
> That said, like most things in life the Mackinlay ESL-3 is not
> perfect. It has a rising response in the upper mids(which I quite like
> - it sounds exciting) and it could do with more warmth in the male
> vocal registers, also like all ESLs bass and loudness capability is
> not its forte. I use mine with competent DIY subwoofers which greatly
> improves the dynamic range.
Unless you have carefully measured the response, and nobody has,
you have not a clue how equalised your speakers are.
The test of a fine speaker is after the work is done to flatten the
response.
Then comes the listening tests.
And if you find the ESL are better than the dynamics, so be it.
With the Quad ESL57 I have here it seems to have a loudness factor built
in.
The bass between 60 and 120 is up a few dB, then there is a broad dip,
then
a broad peak centred at 5kHz of a few dB.
So sure, they are detailed, because of the loudness.
I an not sure I'd want to listen to then closely all the time though.
Many ppl wander around doing things while music pours through the house,
and so the flatness of response matters little because the house
reduces BW greatly.
>
> Many ESL-3 kits have been built worldwide without too much trouble.
> Certainly, the constructor featured in the Hi-Fi World magazine
> article did it OK, didn't mention any major problems and loved the
> sound of the speaker.
>
> All IMHO of course, and good luck with sorting it out ...
I should not be getting stiction bothers.
As i said, it could be present in speakers and many ppl wouldn't know
it,
they will still work, but with reduced bass.
If there is stiction, when the EHT supply is turned off, after awhile
the
membrane will try to let go from the stator to which it is stuck to,
and and its the gradual release which causes a noise like slow big drops
of rain in a tin roof,
or like intermittent discharges.
The noise carried on in my kit for 5 minutes.
The membrane didn't fully release over night.
Strange indeed.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve M.
>
> BTW: Those little gobs of sealastic to tension and tune out resonances
> in the membrane are essential...
I have them in now, but think they may not
reduce the stiction problems.
And when i initially tested the first panel a fortnight ago,
I used full range pink noise.
This wasn't a good idea. but much modern music has a similar range of F
and dynamics as pink noise
except the music has related F which we realize is music. The presence
of large LF voltages down to 10Hz
caused input transformer saturations which made the sound dreadful above
a whisper.
I had arcing, even at only 2kV EHT, panel flap, and I nearly despaired.
So I made a filter using 150uF between amp and ESL input, strapped 68
ohms across the 150uF,
and 56 ohms across the input of the tranny, and this made a high pass
filter
with -3db at about 40hz and +3dB peak at 70Hz.
It kept out all the really LFs and the LF behaviour became better.
The 150uF becomes resonant with the 32mH of input inductance of the
primary of the tranny
at 70Hz, hence the 68 and 56 ohms are needed to damp the Fo lest the Z
fall too
low with the series resonant circuit.
I measured the input impedance of the transformer at 1 ohm at 10Hz.
The series input R of 3 ohms is essential to ensure input resistance
cannot fall below about 3.5 ohms, and damp the HF resonance between
shunt C of the tranny
plus C of treble panel which is directly connected at HF with the
leakage inductance of the tranny.
I've given Rob some carefully considered details of tranny improvements
with bobbin winding details and perhaps we may see
much better LF performance and much lower shunt capacitance in future.
Basically it involves a much larger heavier core and lots more turns and
much more
insulation thickness.
If he really tried, he would pot his improved tranny in some modified
wax
just like in QuadESL57, and maybe it wouldn't arc during the next 50
years.
But the trannys are not even varnished, because of the poorer HF
response due to
increased C caused by the varnish diectric constant in air spaces.
So the insulation just needs to be 4 times thicker, and varnish or wax
would have little effect.
Therefore a bigger winding window needed, so a bigger section of core
material must be chosen.
With more turns and a higher stack of iron you can reduce the saturation
frequency
to 1/3 of where it is now, and the input inductance rises.
I am also thinking that input voltage limiting could be a good idea.
Some sort of active protection could be wise against input voltage
overload.
If such an oveload causes stiction, then its imperative to have
active limiting protection.
Patrick Turner.
Tonni
"TT" <TTencerN...@westnet.com.au> skrev i en meddelelse
news:4624...@quokka.wn.com.au...
approx. 8-10 kV pp!!! - outch!!!
/Tonni
Jon Yaeger
in...@turneraudio.com.au wrote on 4/17/07 7:40 AM:
No, Googling would take a wee bit of effort and thinking. West isn't fond
of either. Rather, he should ask what his idol recommends (WWJD?) and be
obedient to his master's suggestions . . .
Phil Allison
<steve...@hotmail.com>
>
> Get them working properly and you will realise that no Seas based box
> speaker will compete (just too slow with transients) and a Quad ESL-57
> while excellent sounds dull and lacks treble in comparison to the
> ESL-3 (I should know as I once owned three pairs of ESL-57s), although
> I would concede that the Quad midrange is still the best in the
> business.
** ESL57s * absolutely * do NOT sound " dull ".
But any damn fool can make a pig's breakfast out of the speaker by using a
non hi-fi amp ( ie SET ) or by bad placement and/or use in a highly
reverberant listening room
Which of these did you do ?
....... Phil
Patrick Turner
steve...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> I continue to sympathise with your dilemma and you are obviously a
> very knowledgeable and skillful guy, but I feel that all your comments
> need to be taken in the context of your non-working pair of ESL-3's.
> Get them working properly and you will realise that no Seas based box
> speaker will compete (just too slow with transients) and a Quad ESL-57
> while excellent sounds dull and lacks treble in comparison to the
> ESL-3 (I should know as I once owned three pairs of ESL-57s), although
> I would concede that the Quad midrange is still the best in the
> business.
>
> I truly hope you get your ER Audio ESL-3 kit sorted out, once they are
> running properly they are a revelation!
I believe they should be, when I am finished.
But they must also measure fairly well to have any chance of sounding
well and being the revelation
we hope them to be.
Very often I have found that people claiming they get fast transients
from gear they have is simply
because the treble response is boosted.
I find such speakers to be tiring; I like music to be natural, like I
hear at a concert.
No more, and no less. When someone builds a speaker with a 6dB broad
peak around 5kHz,
Its cheating. Its false enginneering. Its tone control. Its tiring. Its
abnormal.
The technical working of the panels must be flawless, and be entirely
free of stiction,
and queer behaviours such as not being able to sustain the EHT,
and being so terribly insensitive that they need too high a driving
voltage
because the step up tranny ratio is too low. The capacitance at HF
should not
become impossible to easily drive with a 20 watt amp because the shunt
capacitance
was high due to poor tranny design.
They must be able to provide a level of sound high enough to include the
all the dynamic range of music
without clipping when played at an average level of 87dB SPL for men,
and 84 dB for women, who mostly tell men to
turn it down.
And they must be able to last. I DON'T want the membranes to loose
tension or tear appart
in 10 years.
If people want to spend a lot of money on something that cannot
make a sine wave sound level get up to 95dB SPL then that's their
choice,
but never mine. Some folks I know have tiny SET amps hooked up to
insensitive speakers and they are happy. I have tried 4 watt amps
and found them entirely inadequate. I'd need to have an all horn system
for 4 watt amps, or have at least 95dB/W transducers, like my 1953 12"
Rola Deluxe speaker
in the kitchen radio with its SET EL34 amp, but it would be useless in
the lounge.
So it is with speakers.
I sometimes like turning it up without music turning to mud because the
amp clips,
or the speakers won't take it.
I expect high standards, and when faced with mediocre standards, I point
these out to everyone.
My withering criticisms should be seen as fertilizer for barren soils of
closed minds.
Producers of ESL kits stand to gain from what I have said
and if instead they want to think they loose, then they deserve to
loose, imho.
Businesses so often say they cannot afford the costs of the quality
improvements,
and that they couldn't sell the product if it did include superior
design components
which have a direct effect on performance.
Quad seemed to manage OK though.
Of course they nearly went completely broke, and seemed to have been
saved by the Chinese.
Anyone here in Oz who has to pay Oz wages knows how difficult it is to
make a dollar
in competion with the Chinese.
But a new pair of Quad ESL is a huge crate of dollars.
So if anyone supplies a kit, they can still make good money, because
Quad have not
learned to sell their speakers at a price just a bit above the cost of
production.
They should salute Quad, because its Quad prices that gives then an
excellent chance in life.
The average wage in Oz is now $44,000 per year, and single males who are
not henpecked by controlling wives
will easily find the money for their hobby. So makers of kits will get
paid for the
extra 4 hours work and $50 worth of material I expect them to
incorporate into their product!!!!
I also expect them to more fully measure all aspects of their product,
and accurately publish it
at a website, and this can take a few weeks of work, but divided by the
number of units they might sell,
its maybe only minutes of time per unit.
The more info they provide, the more they sell,
because they gain the public's confidence about their competence.
Patrick Turner
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve M.
> System Pics at: http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?vevol&1146370182&view
Patrick Turner
I agree entirely Phil, what did he do indeed?
What he's just done is to try to tell everyone that my SEAS drivers in
their boxes,
my clients Vienna Acoustics AND ESL 57 are crap,
and that the sun only really shines from the ERAudio speakers.
When I did a search on Google for reviews of ERA speakers, there were
none except
the sales talk thing at the ER website.
ERA provides a boutique product like I do, and we are not well known,
and the news groups
draw ppl out to vote for their favourite choice of the moment, and
that's what we have here,
a vote. Voting habits don't give us any real insight in the candidates
up for election.
I enjoy seeing how ppl vote, and what their opinions are; its very
benign, but I won't
always agree with why they voted.
But anyone with a broad mind, some home decorating skill, and some
technical knowledge would know
how to achieve great sound in a room from any of the speakers mentioned.
I continue to strive to make a good working pair of ERA ESLs.
My customer went looking for an old pair of ESL57, or 63, but found
none,
and went for an ESL kit instead, and I was contracted to assemble it.
I have had a few bothers, as certainly most beginners would.
I can see how a lot of ppl would never be able to assemble the kit, and
that they wouldn't
be aware of the stiction problem I encountered.
I will have a final report when i am happy and if I am happy with the
product when I am done.
Then and only then will I expect a fee from my client and be prepared to
endorse the product.
If I find such deficiencies in the product prevent my success, I will
let everyone know.
The kit makers will find it easier to lift their quality rather than
shut me up.
Patrick Turner.
TT
: : I can see how a lot of ppl would never be able to
: that they wouldn't
: be aware of the stiction problem I encountered.
: I will have a final report when i am happy and if I am
happy with the
: product when I am done.
: Then and only then will I expect a fee from my client and
be prepared to
: endorse the product.
May I please enquire as to how much you plan on charging for
assembly? Or perhaps a better question would be how much
would you charge for the next set? ;-) As I said
previously, I have heard them (working) and they do most
things right but there is no way I would attempt assembly
myself.
: If I find such deficiencies in the product prevent my
success, I will
: let everyone know.
Pease do?
: The kit makers will find it easier to lift their quality
rather than
: shut me up.
:
;-)
: Patrick Turner.
Cheers TT
Sean
> I continue to strive to make a good working pair of ERA ESLs.
Gday Patrick, I sent you a link to the area 51 website previously, if
you haven't already seen it check out the hardcore section.
http://www.quadesl.org/Hard_Core/hard_core.html
Someone with your technical knowhow should be able to decipher the
wealth of information there...unfortunately its way over my head.
and panel repair
http://www.quadesl.org/Fixit_/BassPanel/basspanel.html
The whole website has some very good tips and tutorials on repairing and
refurbishing Quad panels....Not ER related but it still may be of some help.
With your Stiction problem....It could well be something very simple
like stator-diaphragm insulation? or improper coating? do the ER
diaphragms require heatshrinking ? and have you tested for the proper
diaphragm resistance?
just a few idea's
Sean
Phil Allison
<steve...@hotmail.com
> That's quite agressive Phil and there's no need for it...
** Quit the asinine top posting and snipping out al sign of context.
YOU are just sooo full of BULLSHIT.
> If you took the time to look at my history on the Audiogon link I
> provided you'll appreciate that I am an experienced audiophile who's
> tried a lot of things. The Quad ESL-57's I had were run on very good
> electronics from Krell to Bel Canto digitals to a Naim NAP250 and
> strong 160w/ch push-pull valve power amps - so they were certainly not
> underfed.
** Instead, they were insanely overpowered.
The max safe amp power level to use is 50 watts at 8 ohms.
> My room and acoustics are generally very spacious and good
> sounding.
** Ok - so a highly reverberant barn.
Worst hi-fi listening environment imaginable.
Turns any speaker into a fatiguing mess to listen to.
> Don't get me wrong, I'm a BIG fan of the Quad ESL-57 and as I said I
> used to owned three pairs of them. They are one of the all time great
> speakers and still unsurpassed in its overall musicality. However, its
> frequency response is physically limited by its design to about 14
> kHz,
** Absolute bollocks it is only 14 kHz.
Where did you get this utter nonsense ???????
> while the ER Audio ESL-3 is capable of 20kHz and a Raven ribbon
> tweeter at about 45 kHz,
** Response to beyond the hearing range of the listener is WASTED.
Plus, in any case, has no bearing whatever on you idiot claim of " sounds
dull ".
> so you might begin to understand why Quads
> may sound a bit rolled off in comparison.
** THIS IS SERIOUS BOLLOCKS:
" Quad ESL-57 while excellent sounds dull and lacks treble ... "
In reality, it is just the opposite with slightly rising output at the very
top of the audible range.
ESL57s usually sound bright and a tad harsh in typical set ups with average
quality material.
But any damn fool can make a pig's breakfast out of the speaker by bad
placement and/or use in a highly
reverberant listening room.
...... Phil
Mark
"TT" <TTencerN...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:4623...@quokka.wn.com.au...> news:4622E73B...@turneraudio.com.au...
> :
> <snipped for readability>
>
> : My research indicates the panels *SHOULD WORK OK* if
> constructed
> : properly. I have done enough research on theory to
> indicate
> : that the ERA panels should work OK, its just that when you
> DIY a pair,
> : you don't have the R&D the inventor used.
> :
> Cones are still looking prety good ATM IMHO ;-)
>
> : I am investigating a supply of alternative and better
> membrane material.
> :
> I believe the same stuff from ERA is also used in Quad ESL
> restorations so it may not be a material issue.
>
> : Patrick Turner.
>
> Sorry I can't be of more help.
>
> Regards TT
>
>
>
A fellow was selling a pair of these second hand in canning vale , Perth a
couple of years ago .....very cheaply.
Fully built by the manufacturer , not a kit.
I figured they were worth a listen ......what I heard was very thin and
forward sounding ...the seller kept making excuses for the poor sound .
Room too small , speaker cable not good enough , amps not good enough
(audiolab)
I made my excuses and left seriously underwhelmed.
Alan Rutlidge
<steve...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1176873974.7...@n59g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
> That's quite agressive Phil and there's no need for it...
>
> provided you'll appreciate that I am an experienced audiophile who's
> tried a lot of things. The Quad ESL-57's I had were run on very good
> electronics from Krell to Bel Canto digitals to a Naim NAP250 and
> strong 160w/ch push-pull valve power amps - so they were certainly not
> sounding.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm a BIG fan of the Quad ESL-57 and as I said I
> used to owned three pairs of them. They are one of the all time great
> speakers and still unsurpassed in its overall musicality. However, its
> frequency response is physically limited by its design to about 14
> tweeter at about 45 kHz, so you might begin to understand why Quads
> may sound a bit rolled off in comparison. Its all a matter of what you
> have heard and experienced.
>
> Patrick: All the varying speaker technologies have their merits and I
> did not use the word 'crap', that is your word not mine. What I said
> was that if you are after 'ultimate detail retrieval and transparency'
> then the ESL-3 is the ticket. I didn't say it was the perfect speaker,
> rather it has strengths in certain areas (lightning speed) that is
> unbeatable. Once the construction problems are ironed out and you have
> the ESL-3 running on the right amp and supported by a competent
> woofer, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by what a good
> electrostatic can do over conventional cones & domes.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve M.
>
Steve, I wouldn't waste my time attempting to debate with the undebatable
Philthy.
I concur with your observations of a rolled off top end on the Quad ESL57,
as would a number of reputable audiophiles who have not only subjectively
tested these but also done extensive scientific measurements that back up
the subjective observations.
Phil on the other hand is so Quad mad (that's why we call him Quad Boi), he
has a mental block accepting any opinion which differs from his own. Even
when you do agree with him the stupid dipstick will still want to argue some
insignificant detail, finally abusing you in order to assert himself.
Little man / under achiever syndrome. He should stick to buggering up
toasters.
Cheers,
Alan
roughplanet
> Pease do?
> : Patrick Turner.
No wonder you gave your partners their marching orders Patrick.
Two old women in the same household is one too many.
ruff
atec77'
buggered electrostatics .
Patrick Turner
TT wrote:
>
> "Patrick Turner" <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:46259DBF...@turneraudio.com.au...
> : : I can see how a lot of ppl would never be able to
> assemble the kit, and
> : that they wouldn't
> : be aware of the stiction problem I encountered.
> : I will have a final report when i am happy and if I am
> happy with the
> : product when I am done.
> : Then and only then will I expect a fee from my client and
> be prepared to
> : endorse the product.
>
> May I please enquire as to how much you plan on charging for
> assembly? Or perhaps a better question would be how much
> would you charge for the next set? ;-) As I said
> previously, I have heard them (working) and they do most
> things right but there is no way I would attempt assembly
> myself.
I do not give out financial details of specialist trade work I do
on the Internet.
If someone really wants something, they contact me, and
negotiate a rate. Sometimes they get me to fix a radio,
and when that works out OK they get me to fix something else,
and they get to know me, and I get to know them, and whether its ever
going to put food on my table.
I will only deal with them if they are genuinely wanting some work done.
I have knocked a lot of work back because silly
customers expected me to repair their 1960 junk for peanuts.
I have a Harmon Kardon AM/FM receiver here. Its lingered around with
other gear for 12 mths.
Do a job on it the guy pleaded. He's extremely fussy about every darn
thing he ever buys or pays for.
OK, but typically this takes 40 hours to re-engineer, and document it
fully.
I used to do 3 of these a year, 9 years ago, and re-building them to
remove all the
crapology and bean counter inspired BS would always take a lot of time
but I taught myself well about tube craft.
I encountered every possible combination of fault possible in tubed
AM/FM receivers.
I said I should get paid $70 per hour, and suggested he only wants to
pay $200 all up.
He made no alternative offer at all, and failed to make an offer I
cannot refuse,
and I have 6mths work ahead of me now. Why should it always be down to
me to set a price for a deal?
What kudos do I get from restoring a 1960 heap of shit receiver?
But I know him well, and he's the tightest of tightarses around.
So his project just sits there undone.
I have to survive financially. So I will do more lucrative jobs first,
even if they arrive here after you have put yours in the queue.
Getting a cash flow to just pay the bills and lead the most frugal of
all existances that nobody else would be
comfortable with means I have to pick and choose among jobs and do the
better payers when they arrive
to be done.
ALL are done at less than 1/3 of av weekly wages.
If I earned $20,000 in a year, it would seem to me I'd won the lottery.
Most artisans and many repairists like me have some dumb breadwinner job
to make a basic $200 a week to just pay the basics, house rates,
electricity, phone,
water rates, car rego, et all. I am full time in this trade.
Ppl complain that I am unfair, so I invite them to inspect my
income/taxation records
for the last 10 years.
Some still don't realise they are trying to con me into working for
nothing.
Dealing with the public who denigrates and loathes and insults
professional artisans on a routine basis
is often like cleaning toilets for nothing.
To answer your question in detail would be silly,
you really don't pay anyone to do anything unless its a doctor, dentist
or a lawyer; essentials.
But let me tell ya, you won't find anyone cheaper than me AND who knows
as much
AND who is as thorough.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
steve...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> That's quite agressive Phil and there's no need for it...
>
> If you took the time to look at my history on the Audiogon link I
> provided you'll appreciate that I am an experienced audiophile who's
> tried a lot of things. The Quad ESL-57's I had were run on very good
> electronics from Krell to Bel Canto digitals to a Naim NAP250 and
> strong 160w/ch push-pull valve power amps - so they were certainly not
> underfed. My room and acoustics are generally very spacious and good
> sounding.
>
> Don't get me wrong, I'm a BIG fan of the Quad ESL-57 and as I said I
> used to owned three pairs of them. They are one of the all time great
> speakers and still unsurpassed in its overall musicality. However, its
> frequency response is physically limited by its design to about 14
> kHz, while the ER Audio ESL-3 is capable of 20kHz and a Raven ribbon
> tweeter at about 45 kHz, so you might begin to understand why Quads
> may sound a bit rolled off in comparison. Its all a matter of what you
> have heard and experienced.
>
> Patrick: Once the construction problems are ironed out and you have
> the ESL-3 running on the right amp and supported by a competent
> woofer, I think you will be pleasantly surprised by what
> electrostatics can do over cinventional cones/domes.
I am hoping for good wine from the grapes I have crushed.
We will see what happens when i test the panel again tonight.
I now have the anti resonant node point stoppers in place and have given
the
membrane an additional very thin coat of conductive solution.
this was wiped on in the opposite direction to the first coat
so it should be very even. But if I get stiction problems again
then unless ERA have a known solution, I might be forced to give up,
or else redo the membrane for the 5th time, and use the same much higher
tension
used by QuadESL63.
Patrick Turner.
>
> Regards,
>
> Steve M.
Patrick Turner
Sean wrote:
>
> Patrick Turner wrote:
>
> > I continue to strive to make a good working pair of ERA ESLs.
>
> Gday Patrick, I sent you a link to the area 51 website previously, if
> you haven't already seen it check out the hardcore section.
>
> http://www.quadesl.org/Hard_Core/hard_core.html
>
> Someone with your technical knowhow should be able to decipher the
> wealth of information there...unfortunately its way over my head.
>
> and panel repair
>
> http://www.quadesl.org/Fixit_/BassPanel/basspanel.html
>
> The whole website has some very good tips and tutorials on repairing and
> refurbishing Quad panels....Not ER related but it still may be of some help.
I have read and re-read all that and a lot more about ESL repairs.
>
> With your Stiction problem....It could well be something very simple
> like stator-diaphragm insulation? or improper coating? do the ER
> diaphragms require heatshrinking ? and have you tested for the proper
> diaphragm resistance?
I have addressed all those issues. First time I ran one of these panels
I got long
blue arcs from stators to membrane even with only 3kV.
ERA had no answer for me.
So I coated the stator surfaces facing the membrane with two coats of
anti corona paint, Isonel 642.
No more blue sparks when I did the next new membrane.
Then I found this stiction bother..
Its reasons and full phenomena explanation remains totally unexplained
by anyone anywhere.
Now I know electrostatic effects are involved in adhesive technology;
ordinary sticky tape works with electrostatic effects.
Just how and why is beyond my field of expertise.
Maybe I could spray some WD40 into the gap between stator and membrane,
the greasy
nature of WD40 might stop the stiction. Maybe some silicone lubricant
would work better.
But I might completely fuck up what I have done, so unless I get some
decent advice,
I would not try anything yet.
> just a few idea's
I've lost count of the hours spent searching for more info.
I have also got Ronald Wagner's book on ESL building.
His method for tensioning membranes with a jig is old hat now,
and his theory about input tranny design does not even mention
saturation at LF or explain fully the resonant effects at HF.
So whatever I read, I find deficiencies of knowledge. So one has to
allow
to let different experts overlap each other to gain the full picture.
What one author doesn't quite explain, another will.
Patrick Turner.
>
> Sean
Patrick Turner
Constantly reminding someone of their toaster fixing capabilities
is not good diplomacy, and a waste of Internet space.
I tested the response of an unrestored, un worked on completely original
early serial number ESL57 during the last few days. It probably
is 40 years since Peter Walker waved it goodbye from his factory.
My room is 200cubic metres, sloped ceilings, well carpeted and with
absorbant rugs. Most folks say it is a very nice sound den, and because
of asymetrical
floor layount and split floor levels the room does not have too many
dominant
resonances.
Tested with pink noise and filter of Q = 12, and at 34 F between 20Hz
and 20kHz, I got the following response.
Not all F are listed, but if the points I list below can be just joined
up
on a sheet of log paper and you will have very close to the graph of the
response that I measured...
This was just one of the mic takes, but others averaged show ESL capable
of 20kHz.
40Hz, -6dB
50Hz, -3dB
60Hz, 0dB
85Hz, +10dB ( room peak? )
100Hz, +6dB
130Hz, +3dB
160Hz, +2dB
200Hz, +1dB
320Hz, +1dB
400Hz, -2dB
500Hz, -2d
600Hz, 0dB
700Hz, 0dB
850Hz, +1dB
1.0k, 0.0dB reference point
2.0k, +1.5dB
2.5k, +1dB,
3.2k, +1.5dB,
4.0k, +5dB
5.0k, +3dB
8.5k, -1.5dB
10k, -1dB
13k, -1.5dB
18k, 0dB
20k, -6dB ( microphone has 3dB sag at 20kHz )
Phil isn't wrong about what he's saying this time about quads.
When we see REAL EVIDENCE of response testing and REAL
comparisons between speakers done in a scientific manner
then and only then does the truth about response become exposed.
Remember we ARE NOT talking about percieved subjective response or sound
qualities.
They are non arguable. How ppl hear the same sound varies.
Phil is somewhat tardily impolite to those he replies to.
They tire his patience with a never ending stream of BS about audio,
unsupported by the slightest attempt to back up what they say with some
measurements
of any kind, or give any complete description of the conditions of their
listening tests.
I try to have endless patience to listen to all claims made, knowing
that many claims
can't all be true, and that to
shovel all the BS away from smothering truth is beyond my
abilities and I cannot afford to hire the required front end loader.
But the measures I took the other day show ESL57 have a boomy bass, and
heightened treble around 4-5 kHz,
and response extending to 20kHz. This response is a loudness contour.
This is just one ancient old speaker.
Other samples might measure differently.
If you stated with a dead flat speaker and set a graphic eq up to mimic
the response I got,
you'd have a speaker which sounded remarkably like the above Quad ESL57.
Patrick Turner.
TT
"Phil Allison" <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:58lt5iF...@mid.individual.net...
>
> But any damn fool can make a pig's breakfast out of the
> speaker by bad placement and/or use in a highly
> reverberant listening room.
Or taking a screwdriver to 'em over a weekend.
>
>
>
> ...... Philthy the liar
>
Come on Philthy, tell us the story again about how you
bought a set of Quad 63s and buggered them up in just one
weekend? The Dud Quad story is one of my faves ;-) Oh and
please don't leave out how you were the "legal eagle" from
Hell in the small claims court. Ahhhh..... Ally McBeal eat
your heart out when Philthy "Queens Council" Analson is on
the case.
Also please tell everyone what PT said to you when you rang
him? I'm too polite to mention it but gee I wish someone
had a tape of the conversation I could play?
TT (AKA Mr. Pavlov to Phil)
TT
"Mark" <ant...@global.net.au> wrote in message
news:11768814...@asteroid.globaldial.com...
imagine they were working quite well. Myself and a
colleague were quite impressed. BTW I brought my own music
to demo as well.
I did comment at the time that it was an non-optimal
listening enviroment and as such would have had some bearing
on it. Perhaps that is what influenced the sound?
It piqued my interest enough to keep me interested in their
development anyway. As has already been mentioned, for the
price, it can't be too bad.
Cheers TT
Patrick Turner
TT, you really ought to move right along when you can.
You remain bogged to the axels emotionally.
If you bring up the past, just what do hope to achieve?
proove your brain is vacant of any useful thoughts, or what?
Patrick Turner.
TT
Yeah I know you (and others) are right but I do carry a
grudge and 'yanking PA's chain' from time to time is habit
forming ;-)
Cheers TT
atec77'
>
>
>
>
> Its reasons and full phenomena explanation remains totally unexplained
> by anyone anywhere.
> Now I know electrostatic effects are involved in adhesive technology;
> ordinary sticky tape works with electrostatic effects.
> Just how and why is beyond my field of expertise.
>
> Maybe I could spray some WD40 into the gap between stator and membrane,
> the greasy
> nature of WD40 might stop the stiction. Maybe some silicone lubricant
> would work better.
> But I might completely fuck up what I have done, so unless I get some
> decent advice,
> I would not try anything yet.
>
type of silicon and can survive some serious heat and current to
provide non stick properties .
>
>> just a few idea's
>
west
news:C24A700D.97DF1%jon...@bellsouth.net...
the Peddler is still trying to solicit a response from the big boys. Work
hard, you might get there some day.
west
>
Patrick Turner
Since last saturday, I have placed the anti resonant node buttons into
the bass panels and
applied a second very thin second conductive coat to the membrane.
After re-assembly, all looked OK physically, and I did some tests
yesterday
to adjust the R in series with bass panels to reduce midrange to
be no more than 3dB above the treble.
Some extra R damping of the high pass input filter to keep out
LF signals which would otherwise cause saturation was connected,
and finally the response was re-checked in 4 positions and although not
as flat as other
speakers I have built, I don't think there is much else I could do.
Sensitivity was pretty poor with EHT = -2.5kV
so tonight I adjusted it to -3.5kV, and sensitivity
with the same input voltage rose 3dB for all but lowest bass F which was
welcome.
Then I tried some music with up to 15Vrms signals from the 50 watt amp.
The level was about as loud as my client would ever want, but only
barely.
It sounded well at first, then seemed pretty ordinary.
After 3 minutes, I turned the music down, and then I heard the tell tale
crackling sound of
EHT discharges or some other panel dysfunction.
I unplugged the EHT supply, and the crackles continued, and they didn't
stop
until after 3 minutes. The EHT reduced, and it became obvious
the bass panels were releasing themselves after having become stuck
to the stators. Both bass panels were affected.
So placing the node buttons to support the membrane in a line down the
centre of each
bass panel as per the manual just did NOT have any effect on the
stiction problem
that I am NOT supposed to have.
Tomorrow, when i know everything is discharged, i will prod the
membranes off the stators if they are
still stuck and wind the EHT back to -2.5kV, and begin re-testing.
The speakers will then be -3dB less sensitive, and to achieve the very
moderate levels I want
will take almost all of the 50 watt amp headroom I have.
If the membranes begin to stick to the stators again with the lower EHT,
I could thread some string in around the stators to prevent the stiction
by offering an additional barrier to prevent bass membranes
sucking close to the stators.
If that doesn't work, the idea of the ERA speakers being tossed into the
rubbish bin
are entering my mind.
Patrick Turner.
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
> If that doesn't work, the idea of the ERA speakers being tossed into the
> rubbish bin are entering my mind.
>
** Ah, my little sparrow ...
maybe now you see WHY the most deservedly famous * Peter Waker * became
somewhat prematurely grey and took just on two whole decades to turn his
original 1963 idea for the ESL63 into a viable commercial product.
His ESL57 was a work of complete inspiration, that generated much fulsome
accolades - but ultimately made his business barely one dime.
The Quad 405 amplifier & multiple antecedents made Acoustical plenty of
dimes - plus a Queen's award for technical excellence.
The extraordinary ESL63 ( finally released in 1982) was similarly
successful, both critically and commercially.
The inscrutable Chinese possess PW's engineering secrets now - having paid
most dearly for them.
Not as dim as they sim say some.
...... Phil
roughplanet
"Patrick Turner"
A most insightful & erudite comment on the late, great Peter Walker's
achievements Phil. Keep them coming.
ruff
>
>
>