Quad ESL57 brand new? in boxes
Sean
I wonder what they'll go for?
http://cgi.ebay.com/Quad-ESL-57-Electrostatic-speakers-Black-Pair-boxed_W0QQitemZ190086606755
Btw they're not mine.
I have a pair with similar serial numbers that would look just dandy
sitting above.
here's hoping
regards Sean...Tubes and Esl's , good fly zappers....Smoke...never.
Phil Allison
"Sean" <
> Check out these babies...a mint pair in original boxes
>
> I wonder what they'll go for?
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Quad-ESL-57-Electrostatic-speakers-Black-Pair-boxed_W0QQitemZ190086606755
>
> Btw they're not mine.
>
> I have a pair with similar serial numbers that would look just dandy
> sitting above.
** Nothing like " brand new ".
Likely about 20 years old.
Some Yank will get them.
........ Phil
atec 77
Sean
Just noticed they've obviously been pulled apart at some stage. The
front dustcovers look like they have been refurbished and the matting at
the rear doesn't look original.I'd be wanting some history before
jumping in.
Doug Flynn
"Sean" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:45e76f60$0$16558$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Check out these babies...a mint pair in original boxes
Hi Sean
I had a mint pair of 57s once. They hadn't even had the feet screwed on. I
paid $700 for them at an auction - that was about six years ago. I sold
them to a friend for a little more than that because I didn't like their
lack of dynamics.
Cheers. Doug
Trevor Wilson
"Doug Flynn" <doog...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:%HPFh.5837$8U4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
**HUH!???!!!??? Lack of dynamics in Quads? Not bloody likely. Maximum SPLs
are low, but their dynamics, like most ESLs, are superb. Virtually zero
thermal compression you see. You must have been using a seriously
compromised amplifier, which couldn't cope with the tough impedance curve of
the Quads.
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Phil Allison
"Trevor Wilson"
> "Doug Flynn"
>>
>> I had a mint pair of 57s once. They hadn't even had the feet screwed on.
>> I paid $700 for them at an auction - that was about six years ago. I
>> sold them to a friend for a little more than that because I didn't like
>> their lack of dynamics.
>
> **HUH!???!!!??? Lack of dynamics in Quads? Not bloody likely. Maximum SPLs
> are low, but their dynamics, like most ESLs, are superb. Virtually zero
> thermal compression you see. You must have been using a seriously
> compromised amplifier, which couldn't cope with the tough impedance curve
> of the Quads.
** Err - lemme guess this scenario for you.
6 watt, home made SET amp without feedback - so 10 % distortion with no
damping whatever.
Bare floor and bare walled listening room.
1930s acoustic mono recordings transferred to LP from 78 rpm acetates
.....
Or, maybe the originals on a Garrard changer.
LOL !!
........ Phil
TT
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in
message news:45e7bdb7$0$16328$8826...@free.teranews.com...
:
: "Doug Flynn" <doog...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
:
I think he is referring to their lack of bass as it does put
most people off.
Cheers TT
Patrick Turner
Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
> "Doug Flynn" <doog...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:%HPFh.5837$8U4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > "Sean" <nos...@nospam.net> wrote in message
> > news:45e76f60$0$16558$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >> Check out these babies...a mint pair in original boxes
> >
> > Hi Sean
> >
> > I had a mint pair of 57s once. They hadn't even had the feet screwed on.
> > I paid $700 for them at an auction - that was about six years ago. I sold
> > them to a friend for a little more than that because I didn't like their
> > lack of dynamics.
>
> **HUH!???!!!??? Lack of dynamics in Quads? Not bloody likely. Maximum SPLs
> are low, but their dynamics, like most ESLs, are superb. Virtually zero
> thermal compression you see. You must have been using a seriously
> compromised amplifier, which couldn't cope with the tough impedance curve of
> the Quads.
The ESLs I've heard have great dynamics, and splendid imaging.
But so have many dome and cone speakers.
Doug likes SET amps, and we must wonder what power and Rout his amps
had.
ESL57 are very very easy to drive if in perfect working order
up to about 10k when the Z takes a dive to 2 ohms at 18kHz.
This is because the 100pF treble panel which connects to the 1:145 step
up part of the
ESL tranny converts the 100pF to 2.1uF at the tranny input, and then
there is the shunt C of the tranny.
At bass F the 400pF of the bass panels does not become a low Z because
of C because there is high series R
between the 1:290 part of the tranny and the C of the panels.
The winding resistances of the tranny are allowed to be highish to
give an effective series R at the input, so the ESL is not a pure C
load.
But for a flat response you only need to have Rout of an amp < 1ohm
approx,
and thus Quad-II amps work fine with such a speaker.
Doug also loathes NFB which makes an amp have more faithful dynamics.
He does like horns though, and they do the business OK if well made,
and require only flea power well within any SET amp's capabilities.
ESL63 are even easier to drive, but are less sensitive, so more power is
required.
At LF, ESL speakers are nearly always high Z, maybe 30+ ohms, and still
above 8 ohms at 1 kHz.
Most music energy is below 1kHz, and most amps can make the small amount
of energy
where Z < 4 ohms, above 5 kHz.
But if the Rout of an amp > 1ohm, the F balance begins to show up,
however,
ESL57 are still good; they have no box artifacts, and no cone breakup
artifacts.
They were fabulously better than other boxed speakers made in 1957.
The response isn't as flat as you'd like, but because they don't have
the defects of dynamics,
the response issues are tolerable.
And plenty of dynamics don't have bass as good as '57.
The higher the Rout of the amp, the more bass there is, because the
high Rout cuts the mids and treble, and because the slope of the '57
Z falls smoothly from 35ohms at 50hz to the 2 ohms at 18khz, and without
a lot of hills and valleys in the Z, so it favours bass with a high Rout
amp.
Now whether this means a lack of dynamics is an arguable issue.
Could just be Doug's amplifiers, we cannot know the full story
if Doug don't tell it.
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
I have a working ESL57 speaker here which I tested against
a pair of my own which are second to none.
Sorry folks, but I have never heard better speakers than the ones I have
built.
They also measure very well.
The ESL57 was placed alongside one of my own and mic the same 3.5M
distance,
same pink noise, and virtually identical testing conditionsto eliminate
the lies of
tests with different conditions.
The'57 which appears to be in excellent working order produced two
broad peaks in the response, one centred at 80hz, +5dB above 1khz
reference,
the other at 4kHz and 4dB above 1kHz, with HF slightly rolling off
before my dynamics.
So the '57 I tested has a natural loudness contour.
But the bass down to 70hz was more than mine, but rolled off sharply so
the response was -3db at 40Hz,
wheras mine go down to follow the response of the electret mic, maybe -3
at 20Hz.
So an octave is missing from the '57 response. Big deal, many other
dynamic speakers don't do as
well as the '57, while other have an even higher peak around 80Hz, and
are known
as Karlyfornian Boom Boxes, much loved in the 1970s.
The '57 sure had a gloriously detailed top but that's merely the result
of the higher treble content, like having a treble tone control turned
up for
+3db at 5kHz. For some it would be too bright, and I do prefer my own
which seem
more realistic with the more recordings I play.
The '57 are remarkable speakers, and when restored by well known experts
like John Hall of Melbourne,
the undulations in response are less pronounced, and the speakers
perform better than the originals. The perforated metal mesh covers do
the sound no good.
Mr Hall doesn't need a website because he has so many Quads to fix up,
and ppl think he's worth the expense. What he has to start with, the
original ESL57,
is a fine thing.
I have heard them not at their best, and my first impressions were that
they failed to be able to go loud,
but that was with a pair at a repair place in Sydney where I now suspect
the panels had not
quite the right expertise spent on fixing them.
The ESL63 I last heard had a breathtakingly wide sound stage.
Maybe they are bright as well, I am not to know if they measure that
way, but I thought perhaps they sounded like it.
Patrick Turner.
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
> I have a working ESL57 speaker here which I tested against
> a pair of my own which are second to none.
** Well your worship - he would say that, now wouldn't he ...
( apologies to Mandy Rice Davies )
> The ESL57 was placed alongside one of my own and mic the
> same 3.5M distance, same pink noise, and virtually identical
> testing conditionsto eliminate the lies of tests with different
> conditions.
** ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If a basic pink noise equal response test in some arbitrary loungeroom was
THE FUCKING PROOF of loudspeaker superiority ....................
Then, every single one of us should go out and buy a pair of those appalling
and infamous Bose 901s * Piles of Shit * RIGHT NOW !!!!
Perfect pink noise response in any room - whatsoever.
Shit awful sound in any room - whatsoever.
....... Phil
TT
"Patrick Turner" <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:45E81F7D...@turneraudio.com.au...
<some snipping for readability
Very interesting that you should get those readings Patrick. IIRC these
Quads should be fairly flat +/- 0.5dB 80hz-16khz and then roll off sharply.
> So the '57 I tested has a natural loudness contour.
> But the bass down to 70hz was more than mine, but rolled off sharply so
> the response was -3db at 40Hz,
I would have expected a lot more than that.
> wheras mine go down to follow the response of the electret mic, maybe -3
> at 20Hz.
> So an octave is missing from the '57 response. Big deal, many other
> dynamic speakers don't do as
> well as the '57, while other have an even higher peak around 80Hz, and
> are known
> as Karlyfornian Boom Boxes, much loved in the 1970s.
You wouldn't be aluding to Altec would you? Evry good Pub band used to use
these things ;-)
>
> The '57 sure had a gloriously detailed top but that's merely the result
> of the higher treble content, like having a treble tone control turned
> up for
> +3db at 5kHz. For some it would be too bright, and I do prefer my own
> which seem
> more realistic with the more recordings I play.
As a friend of mine that owned 3 sets of these things said "I only like
listening to female vocals now".
>
> I have heard them not at their best, and my first impressions were that
> they failed to be able to go loud,
No I do believe hat this is a characteristic and then when you drive them
that little bit harder to try and achieve the extra dB well, the panels
come apart ;-)
> but that was with a pair at a repair place in Sydney where I now suspect
> the panels had not
> quite the right expertise spent on fixing them.
Actually when I did a lot of reading on these a while ago it is pretty well
and accepted fact that rebuilt ones usually are better than brand new. Mr.
Walker had a lot of trouble at the factory teaching staff to assemble them
correctly with the just right amount of tension on the membranes.
>
> The ESL63 I last heard had a breathtakingly wide sound stage.
> Maybe they are bright as well, I am not to know if they measure that
> way, but I thought perhaps they sounded like it.
The only chance to date that I had to demo a set the bass panel in one unit
expired the day before I got to them. Again, when some one tries to drive
them too hard they arc and usually blow a panel or at best blow a small hole
in the membrane.
>
> Patrick Turner.
Cheers TT
Patrick Turner
Well you may jibe and laugh, but there was a time when I heard and
measure better speakers
than I could construct myself.
The ones I do have do better after so many days and late nights of work.
Perhaps even better do exist out there, but I have not had a chance to
compare them here.
If I do, I will let you and the group know, and recommend how to get
there.
Oh, and the Bose 901 pos may not necessarily measure better.
Its very unusual for me to find that a speaker with serious pink noise
generated
response inadequacies sounds good. Speakers should have a flat response,
and not have a response like having some randon setting of a graphic
equalizer
with its slides raised / lowered randomly along the band, but this is
how many speakers are.
Patrick Turner.
Doug Flynn
"Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
news:45e7bdb7$0$16328$8826...@free.teranews.com...
>
> are low, but their dynamics, like most ESLs, are superb. Virtually zero
> thermal compression you see. You must have been using a seriously
> compromised amplifier, which couldn't cope with the tough impedance curve
> of the Quads.
Compared to massive Tannoy corner horns and compression driver-based JBL
horns the ESLs have limited dynamics, slam and impact. What the ESLs do
well, they do very well. I have never heard any speaker so free of box
artifacts as the ESLs. They also had excellent detail retreival. However,
they could not handle huge amounts of power.
For the record, I was using a 40 watt commercial tube amp which used plenty
of feedback. I have never heard a better speaker for the human voice or
folk music than the ESLs. For jazz and big classical works, however, they
didn't float my boat. And the beaminess drove me mad....
Cheers. Doug
Trevor Wilson
>
> "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
> news:45e7bdb7$0$16328$8826...@free.teranews.com...
>>
>> **HUH!???!!!??? Lack of dynamics in Quads? Not bloody likely. Maximum
>> SPLs are low, but their dynamics, like most ESLs, are superb. Virtually
>> zero thermal compression you see. You must have been using a seriously
>> compromised amplifier, which couldn't cope with the tough impedance curve
>> of the Quads.
>
> Compared to massive Tannoy corner horns and compression driver-based JBL
> horns the ESLs have limited dynamics, slam and impact.
**I suspect you're using the term: 'dynamics' incorrectly. Slam and impact
are differect aspects to the performance of a speaker. Even horns suffer
thermal compression. ESLs do not. Therefore, ESLs do not suffer with a lack
of dynamics. Dynamic RANGE, perhaps may be limited, due to their relatively
low max SPL capability. This does not necessarily cause a lack of dynamics.
Thermal compression, OTOH, most certainly will.
What the ESLs do
> well, they do very well. I have never heard any speaker so free of box
> artifacts as the ESLs.
**I have. IMO, the old Duntech Crown Prince and (given the prodigious
horsepower required) so did the Duntech Sovereigns. Remarkably
electrostatic-like, free from box resonance and diffraction problems.
They also had excellent detail retreival. However,
> they could not handle huge amounts of power.
**Yep. I suspect this is what you are mistaking for lack of dynamics. They
lack dynamic RANGE. A subtle but important distinction. Quad do not lack
dynamics.
>
> For the record, I was using a 40 watt commercial tube amp which used
> plenty of feedback. I have never heard a better speaker for the human
> voice or folk music than the ESLs. For jazz and big classical works,
> however, they didn't float my boat. And the beaminess drove me mad....
**The ESL63 was a huge improvement in that respect, along with a few others,
but a drawback in some.
Patrick Turner
Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
> "Doug Flynn" <doog...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
> news:I09Gh.6283$8U4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >
> > "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
> > news:45e7bdb7$0$16328$8826...@free.teranews.com...
> >>
> >> **HUH!???!!!??? Lack of dynamics in Quads? Not bloody likely. Maximum
> >> SPLs are low, but their dynamics, like most ESLs, are superb. Virtually
> >> zero thermal compression you see. You must have been using a seriously
> >> compromised amplifier, which couldn't cope with the tough impedance curve
> >> of the Quads.
The impedance curve of the Quads is anything but tough.
ESL57 and 63 are a very easy loads to drive.
Their sensitivity is percieved as low because you need more amplifier
VOLTAGE,
but in fact less amplifer CURRENT at all sound below 2kHz, where
90% of the music energy resides.
Volume controls are voltage control devices.
Quads are capable of memerizingly honest musical reproduction,
but only if you are not a teenager or grown up and still peurile where
ear crashing leves are expected.
> >
> > Compared to massive Tannoy corner horns and compression driver-based JBL
> > horns the ESLs have limited dynamics, slam and impact.
>
> **I suspect you're using the term: 'dynamics' incorrectly. Slam and impact
> are differect aspects to the performance of a speaker. Even horns suffer
> thermal compression.
There is no thermal compression the domestic systems of my clients where
they have used horn loaded domes for mids and treble, with huge voice
coils
rated for arduous PA use at over 100dB averages.
The T rise in these home systems is negligible.
ESLs do not. Therefore, ESLs do not suffer with a lack
> of dynamics.
Be careful, because despite everything you read about ESL
and what you see with square wave demonstrations on a CRO, ppl still
dismiss their
dynamic subjective performance with music.
In comparing an old unrestored but healthy ESL57 recently with my own
blameless designs,
the ESL had more brightness, but no percieved huge difference in
"dynamics".
I'm not deaf, and can make judgements about sound
using no more than 5 watts of power.
The extra brightness is due to a broad response peak of about 4-5dB
centred around 5 kHz.
Maybe if the speaker was fully re-panelled, it would have measure
flatter, and then
any differences would recede.
I'm building a new pair of ERAudio ESL-IIIB panels and will let you all
know what is possible with ESL
afaik, with music and test signals plus impedance/power measurements to
back up whatever I may say.
I really do wish that ANYONE making claims about speaker performances
would so in a controlled environment, with samples of the compared
speakers concerned set up in the same room, same music,
same amps, same day, same 5 minutes, same whatever, and SAME LEVELS and
then tell us what they find.
Also, could anyone wanting to be at all believed on a news group
please endeavour to be more scientific, and perform response tests for
the
speakers compared, amp Rout, and speaker Z measurements,
to see if the science underlines the subjective experiences.
Any one NOT able to perform and conform to moderate levels of competent
audio engineering can be considered to be offering ***Bull Shit*** to us
all,
and personally contributing to the greenhouse effect without
justifiation.
Dynamic RANGE, perhaps may be limited, due to their relatively
> low max SPL capability. This does not necessarily cause a lack of dynamics.
> Thermal compression, OTOH, most certainly will.
>
> What the ESLs do
> > well, they do very well. I have never heard any speaker so free of box
> > artifacts as the ESLs.
>
> **I have. IMO, the old Duntech Crown Prince and (given the prodigious
> horsepower required) so did the Duntech Sovereigns. Remarkably
> electrostatic-like, free from box resonance and diffraction problems.
I may not completely agree, but building speakers with utterly
negligible box effects is quite easy. Just fire all the bean counters
and use the wages saved on making the boxes heavier and better
internally sound absorbent.
My own designs achieve this particularly well compared to any
commercially
mass made speakers I have ever examined.
( See my website if you don't believe me )
>
> They also had excellent detail retreival. However,
> > they could not handle huge amounts of power.
>
> **Yep. I suspect this is what you are mistaking for lack of dynamics. They
> lack dynamic RANGE. A subtle but important distinction. Quad do not lack
> dynamics.
Indeed....
>
> >
> > For the record, I was using a 40 watt commercial tube amp which used
> > plenty of feedback. I have never heard a better speaker for the human
> > voice or folk music than the ESLs. For jazz and big classical works,
> > however, they didn't float my boat. And the beaminess drove me mad....
The beaming is not good, but you DO get a fabulous image.....
The beaming can be tamed with adjustments to the internal ESL wiring,
but to most ppl
who do not understand the inner complex HV workings of such speakers,
this isn't an option.
Reading what Peter Baxandall had to say about ESL57 in 1957 is only able
to be comprehended
by those with a firmly educated technical mind.
Audiophiles should leave the room now if they feel offended.
>
> **The ESL63 was a huge improvement in that respect, along with a few others,
> but a drawback in some.
A lot of ppl prefer the '57.
I know a guy with 3 pairs, all stacked in the same room,
and its quite awesome he says.
Two pairs stacked make a huge difference, the third pair
enhances, but he says the detail and presence are remarkable with more
than one pair.
One would tend to get a line array speaker effect, and a vertical wave
front,
but I have never tried it myself.
Patrick Turner.
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
> The impedance curve of the Quads is anything but tough.
>
> ESL57 and 63 are a very easy loads to drive.
** Because the ESL57 does not have a sub sonic impedance correction
network included, as does the ESL63, it is not a safe load to use with SS
amps that lack good output stage protection. The issue is not there with
music programme as such, but accidental thumps, bangs and other transients
commonly associated with vinyl playback.
Also, since the ESL57 does not have the multi-stage delay line of the 63,
the impedance drops under 2 ohms around 17 kHz.
> Quads are capable of memerizingly honest musical reproduction,
> but only if you are not a teenager or grown up and still peurile where
> ear crashing levels are expected.
** Plenty of disco quality boxes made for the " blow them out the room "
brigade.
With names like Vaf etc ......
> Be careful, because despite everything you read about ESL
> and what you see with square wave demonstrations on a CRO, ppl still
> dismiss their dynamic subjective performance with music.
** Just goes to show how wrong subjective judgements made by ignorant
people can be.
Its the funniest thing out to have someone spend a few minutes listening to
a well set up pair of ESL57s or 63s played comfortably within their SPL
limits - then have them turn to speak to the person sitting right next
to them and be ASTONISHED to find they must shout in order to make
themselves heard !!!
....... Phil
Trevor Wilson
>
>
> Trevor Wilson wrote:
>>
>> "Doug Flynn" <doog...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
>> news:I09Gh.6283$8U4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> >
>> > "Trevor Wilson" <tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote in message
>> > news:45e7bdb7$0$16328$8826...@free.teranews.com...
>> >>
>> >> **HUH!???!!!??? Lack of dynamics in Quads? Not bloody likely. Maximum
>> >> SPLs are low, but their dynamics, like most ESLs, are superb.
>> >> Virtually
>> >> zero thermal compression you see. You must have been using a seriously
>> >> compromised amplifier, which couldn't cope with the tough impedance
>> >> curve
>> >> of the Quads.
>
> The impedance curve of the Quads is anything but tough.
**Incorrect. I suggest you measure a pair.
>
> ESL57 and 63 are a very easy loads to drive.
**Nope. Neither speaker is particularly easy to drive, but the ESL63s are
MUCH easier than the 57s. If you have a chance, measure either speaker with
a square wave and observe the peak currents required. It is a truely
humbling thing to watch.
>
> Their sensitivity is percieved as low because you need more amplifier
> VOLTAGE,
> but in fact less amplifer CURRENT at all sound below 2kHz, where
> 90% of the music energy resides.
**The difficulty of the 57s occurs at LF and HF. The 63s difficulties lie
with te HF only.
>
> Volume controls are voltage control devices.
>
> Quads are capable of memerizingly honest musical reproduction,
> but only if you are not a teenager or grown up and still peurile where
> ear crashing leves are expected.
**Yep.
>
>
>
>> >
>> > Compared to massive Tannoy corner horns and compression driver-based
>> > JBL
>> > horns the ESLs have limited dynamics, slam and impact.
>>
>> **I suspect you're using the term: 'dynamics' incorrectly. Slam and
>> impact
>> are differect aspects to the performance of a speaker. Even horns suffer
>> thermal compression.
>
>
> There is no thermal compression the domestic systems of my clients where
> they have used horn loaded domes for mids and treble, with huge voice
> coils
> rated for arduous PA use at over 100dB averages.
> The T rise in these home systems is negligible.
**Thermal compression occurs in all moving coil systems.
>
>
> ESLs do not. Therefore, ESLs do not suffer with a lack
>> of dynamics.
>
> Be careful, because despite everything you read about ESL
> and what you see with square wave demonstrations on a CRO, ppl still
> dismiss their
> dynamic subjective performance with music.
>
> In comparing an old unrestored but healthy ESL57 recently with my own
> blameless designs,
> the ESL had more brightness, but no percieved huge difference in
> "dynamics".
**I've not heard your speaker, but I've heard 57s and 63s many, many times,
compared to other moving coil designs. The lack of compression of the ESLs
is readily apparent.
**The Duntechs employ rather heroic amounts of EXTERNAL and internal
damping. The external damping to reduce diffration effects and ensure
correct time alignment of the system. These last two factors distinguish
ESLs from regular box speakers. The other issue, not addressed by the
Duntechs is, of course, thermal compression.
> My own designs achieve this particularly well compared to any
> commercially
> mass made speakers I have ever examined.
> ( See my website if you don't believe me )
**I'll trust my own ears, thanks.
>>
>> They also had excellent detail retreival. However,
>> > they could not handle huge amounts of power.
>>
>> **Yep. I suspect this is what you are mistaking for lack of dynamics.
>> They
>> lack dynamic RANGE. A subtle but important distinction. Quad do not lack
>> dynamics.
>
> Indeed....
>>
>> >
>> > For the record, I was using a 40 watt commercial tube amp which used
>> > plenty of feedback. I have never heard a better speaker for the human
>> > voice or folk music than the ESLs. For jazz and big classical works,
>> > however, they didn't float my boat. And the beaminess drove me mad....
>
> The beaming is not good, but you DO get a fabulous image.....
>
> The beaming can be tamed with adjustments to the internal ESL wiring,
> but to most ppl
> who do not understand the inner complex HV workings of such speakers,
> this isn't an option.
> Reading what Peter Baxandall had to say about ESL57 in 1957 is only able
> to be comprehended
> by those with a firmly educated technical mind.
> Audiophiles should leave the room now if they feel offended.
>
>
>>
>> **The ESL63 was a huge improvement in that respect, along with a few
>> others,
>> but a drawback in some.
>
> A lot of ppl prefer the '57.
**And I can understand why.
>
> I know a guy with 3 pairs, all stacked in the same room,
> and its quite awesome he says.
> Two pairs stacked make a huge difference, the third pair
> enhances, but he says the detail and presence are remarkable with more
> than one pair.
>
> One would tend to get a line array speaker effect, and a vertical wave
> front,
> but I have never tried it myself.
**Stacked Quads are very impressive. FAR more than what one would expect
from two pairs.
Patrick Turner
Phil Allison wrote:
>
> "Patrick Turner"
>
> > The impedance curve of the Quads is anything but tough.
> >
> > ESL57 and 63 are a very easy loads to drive.
>
> ** Because the ESL57 does not have a sub sonic impedance correction
> network included, as does the ESL63, it is not a safe load to use with SS
> amps that lack good output stage protection. The issue is not there with
> music programme as such, but accidental thumps, bangs and other transients
> commonly associated with vinyl playback.
There must be thousands of SS amps driving ESL57 without the problem
of very low Z at very low F.
There is some dc resistance of the step up tranny primary. The reflected
secondary
resistance is in series with capacitances of very high Z at LF.
I do not know exactly what the R dc is.
I have a schematic of equivalent ESL57 with LF load being effectively
20uH + 80mH, but there is no included primary Rdc.
Any one in doubt should use a 4.7ohm series R with a bypass of 1,000uF.
This parallel network in series will itself have a pole of about 34Hz,
so that by
10Hz, the CZ becomes large, and there is at least 4.7 ohms of resistance
in series with whatever low Rdc is in the speaker.
> Also, since the ESL57 does not have the multi-stage delay line of the 63,
> the impedance drops under 2 ohms around 17 kHz.
But at 17kHz, the 100pF of the treble panel effectively directly driven
off the
1:145 step up tranny winding in in series with the winding R of that
coil,
and at the P there is the sum of the two lots of P&S winding R.
So since the Cshunt of the full 1/2 sec = 200pF, and panel = 100pF, for
a total of 300pF,
so 150pF appears across the 1:145 winding section, see Baxandall, 1957,
then this C becomes 21,025 x 150pF = 3.15uF at the primary, with an
assumed total
winding R = 1.5 ohms plus 20uH of lekage inductance with Z = 2.13 ohms
at 17 kHz.
But my other models for ESL57 simply show 1.5 ohms in series with 2uF to
0V
and 15 ohms across the 2uF.
The small series R in the speaker is enough to damp the oscillations
when square waves are applied, and to prevent a peaked response at 20kHz
with amplifiers
with an inductive output Z, ie, all tube amps, and many SS amps with an
LR
parallel filter on their output.
Just about any amplifier will find the ESL57 easy to drive, even the
very weak
Quad-II power amp.
But suppose the input Z at HF is 1.5 ohms and 3.2 uF.
This is 1.5R + 2.92C reactance, so Z RC = 3.3 ohms approx.
Now this isn't low enough to blow up most amps when the output is raised
to clipping briefly.
The fact is that the amount of music energy above 7 kHz is A VERY SMALL
AMOUNT,
so all amps will be able to pass the energy even though its a signal
going into the low Z.
Because the the energy above 7kHz is such a little a % of the whole
music signal, there is no
need for the amp to be able to produce the full 1 kHz signal level at
clipping into the
1kHz load of approx 10 ohms.
The load does not fall to 8 ohms until 3 kHz, and not to 4 until 10kHz.
The Z between 40Hz and 1 kHz where most of the energy resides is
extremely easy to drive.
Amps that blow up, oscillate, or otherwise malfunction with Quad ESL
speakers simply
have not been designed right, and the amp should accommodate
huge transients such as generated with dropped tone arms.
> > Quads are capable of memerizingly honest musical reproduction,
> > but only if you are not a teenager or grown up and still peurile where
> > ear crashing levels are expected.
>
> ** Plenty of disco quality boxes made for the " blow them out the room "
> brigade.
>
> With names like Vaf etc ......
Perhaps, but the I-66 seem OK at any levels.
>
> > Be careful, because despite everything you read about ESL
> > and what you see with square wave demonstrations on a CRO, ppl still
> > dismiss their dynamic subjective performance with music.
>
> ** Just goes to show how wrong subjective judgements made by ignorant
> people can be.
>
> Its the funniest thing out to have someone spend a few minutes listening to
> a well set up pair of ESL57s or 63s played comfortably within their SPL
> limits - then have them turn to speak to the person sitting right next
> to them and be ASTONISHED to find they must shout in order to make
> themselves heard !!!
Last time I heard ESL63 with a fairly decent source,
they had a huge sound stage, and were extremely impressive but were
slightly bright,
but the levels were high; the owner seemed almost desperate to impress
me and a mate.
There was a lot more headroom available.
The power amp was an ARC VT100, 4 x 6550 per channel.
The vinyl source sounded nicer than cd.
There were 2 subs to fill in the bottom octave. I though the response
was OK
in the bass, just a bit strong up top.
One of the most persistantly evil habits of speaker makers is to tailor
the response
to have a loudness contour, boosted mid bass between 80 and 160, and
boosted HF centred at about 5kHz.
They want you choosing THEIR speaker rather than anyone else's.
When I listened to a full RAAF military band at the local hall in full
bore
it was **LOUD!!** but oh so natural, and expected, and untiring, and
acceptable, even where I was at 20 metres away. Lots of bash and crash
and bang boom
without smear and restrictions placed there by recording technicians
compressing hell out of it all.
If compression is heard with ESL, methinks it is likely to be in the
recording,
and accurately reproduced for what it is, crap.
Patrick Turner.
>
> ....... Phil
Phil Allison
"Trevor Wilson"
>> The impedance curve of the Quads is anything but tough.
>
> **Incorrect. I suggest you measure a pair.
** He has, so have I and countless others.
TW's crackpot interpretations are all false, as per usual.
>> ESL57 and 63 are a very easy loads to drive.
>
> **Nope. Neither speaker is particularly easy to drive, but the ESL63s are
> MUCH easier than the 57s.
** Bollocks.
The ESL57 is nominally 16 ohms as against 6- 8 ohms for the ESL63 for a
start !!
> If you have a chance,
** The onus is always on the one making the claim to back it up.
> measure either speaker with a square wave and observe the peak currents
> required.
** The onus is always on the one making the claim to produce the supporting
data.
> It is a truely humbling thing to watch.
** OK, OK - * now * I get the underhanded game this congenital
PITA fool is playing here.
TW ( life long audio dealer / vampire ) is * STILL* inventing looney
reasons to sell a stinking ME " high current " amp.
Good grief !
....... Phil
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
Phil Allison wrote:
>
>> > The impedance curve of the Quads is anything but tough.
>> >
>> > ESL57 and 63 are a very easy loads to drive.
>>
>> ** Because the ESL57 does not have a sub sonic impedance correction
>> network included, as does the ESL63, it is not a safe load to use with SS
>> amps that lack good output stage protection. The issue is not there with
>> music programme as such, but accidental thumps, bangs and other
>> transients
>> commonly associated with vinyl playback.
>
> There must be thousands of SS amps driving ESL57 without the problem
> of very low Z at very low F.
** Yep - and they all have adequate protection for the output stage.
As did the Quad 303.
> I do not know exactly what the R dc is.
** I do - it is a tiny 300 milliohms.
> Any one in doubt should use a 4.7ohm series R with a bypass of 1,000uF.
** Better make that 4.7 ohm a 20 watt wire-wound type.
Better use a bi-polar for the 1000uF electro - not easy to source.
Best of all, just use an amp with adequate VI protection.
>> Also, since the ESL57 does not have the multi-stage delay line of the 63,
>> the impedance drops under 2 ohms around 17 kHz.
> Just about any amplifier will find the ESL57 easy to drive, even the
> very weak Quad-II power amp.
** Easily blows up unprotected SS amps when large sub sonics come along -
just like I said.
The input tranny is easily driven into saturation at or below 20 Hz.
Try reading what I actually wrote above.
> The Z between 40Hz and 1 kHz where most of the energy resides is
> extremely easy to drive.
** Yawn - the fool just WILL NOT READ what is written.
Must have posted the exact same info a dozen times by now.
> Amps that blow up, oscillate, or otherwise malfunction with Quad ESL
> speakers simply have not been designed right,
** No good comes from blaming the amp.
Most are not intended nor warranted against the result of driving sub-sonic
energy into a saturating input transformer.
> and the amp should accommodate
> huge transients such as generated with dropped tone arms.
** Yawn .....
I realty do not need this fool to keep
TELLING ME HIS DUMB OPINIONS.
( snip the whole boring lot)
..... Phil
Patrick Turner
I have measured the Z of the two ESL57 I have here, and the only one of
them which is hard to drive
is the one with an arcing treble centre panel.
I would ask Trevor to set up any generic low Rout amp he likes with a
normal dynamic speaker
and some music at the average 1 watt level for average loud level.
I suggest Trev connect 4 uF across the amp output in parallel with the
dynamic speakers.
The test needn't be for very long, just in case the amp is really badly
designed
and fails/smokes instantly.
But I would be very suprised if Trev or anyone else heard the slightest
change in sound,
despite the SLIGHT drop in signal voltage at 20kHz, and the extra 70
degrees of phase lag,
and the increase in HF THD, which should be inaudible,
because the first harmonic above a 20kHz tone is the 2H at 40kHz.
The slight increase in IMD is in fact rather hard to discern audibly.
Usually, 4 uF can be tolerated indefinitely at low levels.
Some ESL speakers of much larger size than the ESL57 do have a much
lower Z at HF
simply because the panel is larger, so its capacitance is greater.
Perhaps the capacitance of the treble
is 6uF instead of ESL57's 2uF.
I recently sold one of my 8585 amps to a gentleman in Melbourne with 3
stacked
pairs of ESL57.
The tubes are actually a quad of KT90 per channel, good for about
120watts max into 2.5 ohms, but will do 100W into 4 ohms, 70 watts into
8 etc. But the amp
is basically about able to do what a parallel quad of Quad-II amps can
do, ie,
what a Quad 405 can do.
Despite the fact the 3 stacked pairs of ESL57 present a load 3 TIMES
MORE "HORRIBLE"
than one pair of supposedly horrible ESL57, the amp copes brilliantly,
offering dazzling sound production.
When anyone says ESL57 are a lousy load, they are talking sheer BS.
The L&R Zobel network at the SS amp output prevent impossibly high
square wave current pulses from flowing.
High current flow is impossible with such a network at HF into low Z
reactive C loads.
4uF is 2 ohms at 20kHz, 4 ohms at 10kHz, and 8 ohms at 5 kHz, and such
loads won't blow a well designed amp.
40uF might, but not 4uF.
And ESL57 has some series R in front of 2uF which makes the load a much
more benign load than a
4uF acoss the output.
Large Martin Logan ESL are a bit hard to drive, like the 3 parallel
pairs of ESL57.
Its always because the ESL speaker panels are capacitors.
The larger the treble panel, the higher the C value, for a given
distance between the panel stators.
This distance is varied by makers, and less distance is needed with
treble panels,
because the membrane moves much less than bass panels, and treble
signals are lower, so the lower
V swing across the stators is needed.
Some makers do make full range ESL, so the C is then quite high at HF,
but this is not the case
with most ESL lest nobody be able to drive the speakers.
Bass panels and midrange don't load the amp with capacitance because
high value series resistance is always used between the bass panels and
the step up tranny.
This forms an RC network, and in ESL57, the bass panel sums to 400pF
with a total of
1.1Mohm of series R giving a crossover pole at 350Hz approx.
I suggest anyone who doesn't believe what I am saying should study the
way transformers
transform the network after the sec and they should measure the Z, and
look at the ESL57 schematic, widely
posted across the Net, and see the way it all works.
This means they'd have to understand filter network theory, and many
other basic notions
of the way electronic elements interact.
Granpa said, "If yer don't look, yer won't know."
Patrick Turner.
Patrick Turner
Phil Allison wrote:
>
> "Patrick Turner"
> Phil Allison wrote:
> >
> >> > The impedance curve of the Quads is anything but tough.
> >> >
> >> > ESL57 and 63 are a very easy loads to drive.
> >>
> >> ** Because the ESL57 does not have a sub sonic impedance correction
> >> network included, as does the ESL63, it is not a safe load to use with SS
> >> amps that lack good output stage protection. The issue is not there with
> >> music programme as such, but accidental thumps, bangs and other
> >> transients
> >> commonly associated with vinyl playback.
> >
> > There must be thousands of SS amps driving ESL57 without the problem
> > of very low Z at very low F.
>
> ** Yep - and they all have adequate protection for the output stage.
>
> As did the Quad 303.
>
> > I do not know exactly what the R dc is.
>
> ** I do - it is a tiny 300 milliohms.
Peter Baxandall's equivalent schematic of the ESL57 drawn up
and published in about 1957 shows 0.6 ohms DCR in the primary winding.
>
> > Any one in doubt should use a 4.7ohm series R with a bypass of 1,000uF.
>
> ** Better make that 4.7 ohm a 20 watt wire-wound type.
5 x 22 ohms 10 watt in parallel would do
>
> Better use a bi-polar for the 1000uF electro - not easy to source.
Jaycar have 330uF, so parallel 3.
>
> Best of all, just use an amp with adequate VI protection.
Well of course, but not a single customer I have ever met understands
such technical issues.
>
> >> Also, since the ESL57 does not have the multi-stage delay line of the 63,
> >> the impedance drops under 2 ohms around 17 kHz.
>
> > Just about any amplifier will find the ESL57 easy to drive, even the
> > very weak Quad-II power amp.
>
> ** Easily blows up unprotected SS amps when large sub sonics come along -
> just like I said.
I've never had an SS amp in for repair that blew because of ESL57
Maybe one comes in tommorrow, the first one in 12 years.
>
> The input tranny is easily driven into saturation at or below 20 Hz.
>
> Try reading what I actually wrote above.
>
> > The Z between 40Hz and 1 kHz where most of the energy resides is
> > extremely easy to drive.
>
> ** Yawn - the fool just WILL NOT READ what is written.
>
> Must have posted the exact same info a dozen times by now.
>
> > Amps that blow up, oscillate, or otherwise malfunction with Quad ESL
> > speakers simply have not been designed right,
>
> ** No good comes from blaming the amp.
Essentially, ESL step up trannies present a low value inductive input
load at LF,
and one which saturates because of the iron core.
Saturation is a voltage related issue, and as you halve the applied
input voltage, the
frequency of saturation reduces, so the input Z at low normal levels of
operation
for most amps remains inductive, and the 80mH of the ESL57
is 5 ohms at 10Hz.
Most amps are not alowed to go down to DC, but have an input filter with
a pole at 10Hz.
At least MY designs of tube amps just seem to cope.
Even with 3 x ESL57 in parallel.
No oscillations, no cutting out, no smoke.
If the other guys can't do it, then that's too bad.
>
> Most are not intended nor warranted against the result of driving sub-sonic
> energy into a saturating input transformer.
>
> > and the amp should accommodate
> > huge transients such as generated with dropped tone arms.
>
> ** Yawn .....
>
> I realty do not need this fool to keep
>
> TELLING ME HIS DUMB OPINIONS.
But YOU are sure telling us all your opinions...
I speak to the group, not just to you.
>
> ( snip the whole boring lot)
Not a problem, if you don't read and reply,
maybe the group SNR is improved.
Ever consider that your posts could be boring?
Patrick Turner.
>
> ..... Phil
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner"
>
>> > I do not know exactly what the R dc is.
>>
>> ** I do - it is a tiny 300 milliohms.
>
>
> Peter Baxandall's equivalent schematic of the ESL57 drawn up
> and published in about 1957 shows 0.6 ohms DCR in the primary winding.
** Then he got it wrong.
Go and measure it yourself - you fucking PITA FOOL !!!!.
>> Best of all, just use an amp with adequate VI protection.
>
> Well of course, but not a single customer I have ever met understands
> such technical issues.
** There is such a thing as technical advice - you PITA FOOL !!!
Either from the amp maker, suppliers, repair techs etc.
>>
>> > Just about any amplifier will find the ESL57 easy to drive, even the
>> > very weak Quad-II power amp.
>>
>> ** Easily blows up unprotected SS amps when large sub sonics come
>> ong -
>> just like I said.
>
>
> I've never had an SS amp in for repair that blew because of ESL57
** Proves absolutely nothing - you asinine PITA FOOL.
Piss OFF.
....... Phil
Patrick Turner
Phil Allison wrote:
>
> "Patrick Turner"
>
> >
> >> > I do not know exactly what the R dc is.
> >>
> >> ** I do - it is a tiny 300 milliohms.
> >
> >
> > Peter Baxandall's equivalent schematic of the ESL57 drawn up
> > and published in about 1957 shows 0.6 ohms DCR in the primary winding.
>
> ** Then he got it wrong.
>
> Go and measure it yourself - you fucking PITA FOOL !!!!.
I just did.
The Quad ESL57 in my workshop has 1.2ohms dcr across its input
terminals, which makes you wrong by a factor of +12dB.
Peter Baxandall also may be seen to be wrong, but perhaps Quad increased
the dcr of the windings,
or added a series R which I didn't see when I prodded the input
terminals of the speaker.
>
> >> Best of all, just use an amp with adequate VI protection.
> >
> > Well of course, but not a single customer I have ever met understands
> > such technical issues.
>
> ** There is such a thing as technical advice - you PITA FOOL !!!
>
> Either from the amp maker, suppliers, repair techs etc.
But you call me stupid. This, on your part, is illogical since it is the
vast majority of users that are stupid, don't read technical manuals,
and don't understand the slightest
bit of techno talk whatsover.
The Technical Advice offered by makers regarding some odd weird
condition
that voids a warranty is never on the front cover; its in fine print,
and always missed.
Did ye not realize that amplifier makers WANT users to blow up their
amps as soon as possible,
so they come back for another?
Notice how the speaker wire terminals are always close together on the
back of most amps?
This is to make it likely that frayed or twisted bared ends of speaker
wires will cause a short,
and another sale!.
Notice how most amps have no circuit within to always shut the amp right
down
if the load falls below 2 ohms, for longer than 1 second, regardless of
signal voltage
or signal current level. This means a maker must have a circuit to
evaluate RL regardless
of the level.
It appears my tube amps do not need such sophisicated protection
circuitry,
but many SS amps would benefit, but the reason why such circuits don't
exist
is sales related.
> >> > Just about any amplifier will find the ESL57 easy to drive, even the
> >> > very weak Quad-II power amp.
> >>
> >> ** Easily blows up unprotected SS amps when large sub sonics come
> >> ong -
> >> just like I said.
Whether an SS amp "blows up" with a "large subsonic event" is a moot
point.
Usually the subsonic incident may trigger the protection circuit which
reacts to high Vdc offests
at the output terminal, mistaking a temporary LF ac condition for DC.
OK, so you reset the amp if its re-setable.
Usually SS amp output devices have to be hot to fuse with sustained high
currents x voltage
at any F or with sustained subsonics at low levels so that SOA is
exceeded and thermal damage occurs,
as it does with a shorted speaker or lead.
Fuses on the output will protect the amps against large subsonics
to a low load value. Dropping the stylus is similar to having volume
right up
and a loud drum signal; you just get LF clipping, so the rails are fully
turned on to the load via the output devices. +50V into 1 ohm = 50amps.
This is of course unsustainable, hence the over current protection
fitted to most amps
in the form od threshold VI circuits, or a fuse, or preferably both,
and with fuses in each +/- rail for each channel.
Most pwer BJT or mosfets are easily capable of passing 5 amps
to blow a fuse without enduring damage themselves when they are cool.
> >
> >
> > I've never had an SS amp in for repair that blew because of ESL57
>
> ** Proves absolutely nothing - you asinine PITA FOOL.
>
> Piss OFF.
>
> ....... Phil
Not pissing off Phil.
I am right up on your wheel.
Get used to me being here forever!!!
And I will pass you and get a win each lap, because you don't have the
intellectual stamina
to keep up a high pace.
You conveniently employ the worst netiquette ever to be found,
and snip my posts to pieces, leaving out all the truths that i have been
exposing.
For example, you havn't made a single comment about
the fact that my 8585 amp is quite happy driving 3 parallel pairs of
ESL57.
The full schematic, with description is at
http://www.turneraudio.com.au/8585-amp-october-2006.html
Patrick Turner
Phil Allison
>> >> > I do not know exactly what the R dc is.
>> >>
>> >> ** I do - it is a tiny 300 milliohms.
>> >
>> >
>> > Peter Baxandall's equivalent schematic of the ESL57 drawn up
>> > and published in about 1957 shows 0.6 ohms DCR in the primary winding.
>>
>> ** Then he got it wrong.
>>
>> Go and measure it yourself - you fucking PITA FOOL !!!!.
>
> I just did.
>
> The Quad ESL57 in my workshop has 1.2ohms dcr across its input
> terminals, which makes you wrong by a factor of +12dB.
** Nope - you are wrong.
Tested ESL 57s with serial numbers as low a # 256 and as high as #
44,500.
All same, 0.30 ohms +/- 10%.
>> ** There is such a thing as technical advice - you PITA FOOL !!!
>>
>> Either from the amp maker, suppliers, repair techs etc.
>
>
> The Technical Advice offered by makers regarding some odd weird
> condition that voids a warranty is never on the front cover; its in fine
> print,
> and always missed.
** Technical advice is only a phone call away - you PITA FOOL !!!
One asks:
" Is my brand xxxx , model xxxx amp OK to use with Quad ESL57s ? "
>> >> > Just about any amplifier will find the ESL57 easy to drive, even the
>> >> > very weak Quad-II power amp.
>> >>
>> >> ** Easily blows up unprotected SS amps when large sub sonics come
>> >> along - just like I said.
>
>
> Whether an SS amp "blows up" with a "large subsonic event" is a moot
> point.
** Pat - can you see the words " unprotected SS amp " ??
Care to say what you imagine they refer to ??
Most SS amps have protection against shorted or very low Z loads, but some
do not.
Some protection schemes are too slow acting so do not work with a saturating
transformer as the load.
The SOA of devices like 2N3055s etc is just not sufficient without fast
acting current limiting.
Some SS amps make their own sub-sonic thumps when switched on or off - no
serious problem with ordinary speakers.
That you lack technical experience, undemanding an imagination
IS NOT MY PROBLEM !!
....... Phil
roughplanet
news:54v21hF...@mid.individual.net...
"Patrick Turner"
> > The impedance curve of the Quads is anything but tough.
> > ESL57 and 63 are a very easy loads to drive.
> ** Because the ESL57 does not have a sub sonic impedance correction
> network included, as does the ESL63, it is not a safe load to use with SS
> amps that lack good output stage protection. The issue is not there with
> music programme as such, but accidental thumps, bangs and other transients
> commonly associated with vinyl playback.
>
> Also, since the ESL57 does not have the multi-stage delay line of the 63,
> the impedance drops under 2 ohms around 17 kHz.
> > Quads are capable of memerizingly honest musical reproduction,
> > but only if you are not a teenager or grown up and still peurile where
> > ear crashing levels are expected.
> ** Plenty of disco quality boxes made for the " blow them out the room "
> brigade.
> With names like Vaf etc ......
Heh heh........
> > Be careful, because despite everything you read about ESL and what
> > you see with square wave demonstrations on a CRO, ppl still dismiss
> > their dynamic subjective performance with music.
> ** Just goes to show how wrong subjective judgements made by ignorant
> people can be.
> Its the funniest thing out to have someone spend a few minutes listening
to
> a well set up pair of ESL57s or 63s played comfortably within their SPL
> limits - then have them turn to speak to the person sitting right next
> to them and be ASTONISHED to find they must shout in order to make
> themselves heard !!!
AHHHH .................... that's the FIRST time I've ever heard anyone
comment
about that PA.
It happened to me when I was listening to a friend's ESL63's driven with
what is undoubtedly one of the nicest amps at any price; an AR VT-100 MKII.
We were listening to one of Anthony Wilson's (the guitarist in Diana Krall's
group)
earlier recordings; 'Goat Hill Junket', and when it finished, I turned to
Michael & literally yelled into his ear :-).
Of course it's probably the ultimate compliment you could possibly pay
someone regarding their audio system, but it's also quite funny on another
level.
Great speakers, great amp, great music. Can't ask for much more.
ruff
Phil Allison
"Phil Allison"
"Sean"
>> Check out these babies...a mint pair in original boxes
>>
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com/Quad-ESL-57-Electrostatic-speakers-Black-Pair-boxed_W0QQitemZ190086606755
>>
>> Btw they're not mine.
>>
>> I have a pair with similar serial numbers that would look just dandy
>> sitting above.
>
>
> ** Nothing like " brand new ".
>
> Likely about 20 years old.
>
> Some Yank will get them.
** Well, - a South Korean won the bidding.
...... Phil
roughplanet
"Patrick Turner"
> >> >> > I do not know exactly what the R dc is.
> >> >> ** I do - it is a tiny 300 milliohms.
> >> > Peter Baxandall's equivalent schematic of the ESL57 drawn up
> >> > and published in about 1957 shows 0.6 ohms DCR in the primary
winding.
> >> ** Then he got it wrong.
> >> Go and measure it yourself - you fucking PITA FOOL !!!!.
> > I just did.
> > The Quad ESL57 in my workshop has 1.2ohms dcr across its input
> > terminals, which makes you wrong by a factor of +12dB.
> ** Nope - you are wrong.
> Tested ESL 57s with serial numbers as low a # 256 and as high as #
> 44,500.
They were the 'matched pair' Phil used to own :-).
> All same, 0.30 ohms +/- 10%.
As those speakers were stuffed, the measurements were likely to be stuffed
too :-).
Then WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM Phil? Perhaps it's 'undemanding an imagination',
whatever that means :-).
ruff
Sean
Got them for a song too...
*If* they were in as good condition as they looked, you would not find a
better pair of speakers for $1650.00
I asked the guy about their history , repairs etc.... he didn't
elaborate.....
Quote "There is a local chap that tends to work only on early Quad
equipment. I understand he checked them for thr previous owner.
His work is of the highest standard"
Had they been in OZ I would have been a real chance....I wasn't too sure
about dealing with vague, smooth talking kiwi's though.
Sean
Sean
I can also confirm this, sitting 3 feet away from a mate who's shouting
at me how he's never heard "Brothers in arms" sound so bloody good!. all
the while the the Quads are purring along not even close to clipping or
arcing.
How about an episode on Mythbusters titled "Esl57 dont go loud"
Busted.
Phil Allison
"Sean"
> Phil Allison wrote:
>
>> ** Well, - a South Korean won the bidding.
>>
>> http://cgi.ebay.com.au/Quad-ESL-57-Electrostatic-speakers-Black-Pair-boxed_W0QQitemZ190086606755QQihZ009QQcategoryZ3284QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem
>>
>>
>
>
> *If* they were in as good condition as they looked, you would not find a
> better pair of speakers for $1650.00
>
> I asked the guy about their history , repairs etc.... he didn't
> elaborate.....
>
> Quote "There is a local chap that tends to work only on early Quad
> equipment. I understand he checked them for thr previous owner.
> His work is of the highest standard"
>
> Had they been in OZ I would have been a real chance....I wasn't too sure
> about dealing with vague, smooth talking kiwi's though.
>
** The seller was a "mushroom" dealer - keeps everyone in the dark &
feeds them a load of manure.
........ Phil
Phil Allison
"roughplanet"
** Piss off - you pathetic, commie, egg chucking fuckwit.
Eiron
> "Phil Allison" <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
> news:54v21hF...@mid.individual.net...
>>a well set up pair of ESL57s or 63s played comfortably within their SPL
>>limits - then have them turn to speak to the person sitting right next
>>to them and be ASTONISHED to find they must shout in order to make
>>themselves heard !!!
>
>
> AHHHH .................... that's the FIRST time I've ever heard anyone
> comment about that PA.
I have often pointed it out in various usenet groups when people suggest
that Quads don't go loud.
--
Eiron.
paul packer
Gee, I think he nailed you there, Ruff. Your whole history in one
sentence. :-)
Eiron
>
> Phil Allison wrote:
>>"Patrick Turner"
>>>>>I do not know exactly what the R dc is.
>>>>** I do - it is a tiny 300 milliohms.
>>>Peter Baxandall's equivalent schematic of the ESL57 drawn up
>>>and published in about 1957 shows 0.6 ohms DCR in the primary winding.
>>
>>** Then he got it wrong.
>>Go and measure it yourself.
> I just did.
> The Quad ESL57 in my workshop has 1.2ohms dcr across its input
> terminals, which makes you wrong by a factor of +12dB.
You still haven't got the hang of these decibel thingies.
You've shown us how *you* use them with money and resistance,
so how about weight, time and distance?
--
Eiron.
Patrick Turner
Phil Allison wrote:
>
> "Patrick Turner"
>
> >> >> > I do not know exactly what the R dc is.
> >> >>
> >> >> ** I do - it is a tiny 300 milliohms.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Peter Baxandall's equivalent schematic of the ESL57 drawn up
> >> > and published in about 1957 shows 0.6 ohms DCR in the primary winding.
> >>
> >> ** Then he got it wrong.
> >>
> >> Go and measure it yourself - you fucking PITA FOOL !!!!.
> >
> > I just did.
> >
> > The Quad ESL57 in my workshop has 1.2ohms dcr across its input
> > terminals, which makes you wrong by a factor of +12dB.
>
> ** Nope - you are wrong.
>
> Tested ESL 57s with serial numbers as low a # 256 and as high as #
> 44,500.
>
> All same, 0.30 ohms +/- 10%.
Sorry Phil, but I will believe what my meter says rather than believe
you.
> >> ** There is such a thing as technical advice - you PITA FOOL !!!
> >>
> >> Either from the amp maker, suppliers, repair techs etc.
> >
> >
> > The Technical Advice offered by makers regarding some odd weird
> > condition that voids a warranty is never on the front cover; its in fine
> > print,
> > and always missed.
>
> ** Technical advice is only a phone call away - you PITA FOOL !!!
>
> One asks:
>
> " Is my brand xxxx , model xxxx amp OK to use with Quad ESL57s ? "
Surely you jest.
I know of nobody who'd bother to ring Yamaha or Sony to find out if
their
amp would cope with Speaker X.
They just plug and play.
99% of the time there are no dramas. Not many use vinyl these days.
Those that do, and who do drop a stylus, don't always blow an amp,
but if they do, that's when they learn what the word "DON'T" means.
>
> >> >> > Just about any amplifier will find the ESL57 easy to drive, even the
> >> >> > very weak Quad-II power amp.
> >> >>
> >> >> ** Easily blows up unprotected SS amps when large sub sonics come
> >> >> along - just like I said.
> >
> >
> > Whether an SS amp "blows up" with a "large subsonic event" is a moot
> > point.
>
> ** Pat - can you see the words " unprotected SS amp " ??
>
> Care to say what you imagine they refer to ??
Nearly all SS amps have some sort of protection.
If someone buys an amp with no protection, they can expect troubles.
But many people have no clue about the issue, and just buy anything
without
investigating the technical capabilities.
>
> Most SS amps have protection against shorted or very low Z loads, but some
> do not.
I say they all should sustain a shorted load with a big sudden LF
signal.
This includes blowing a fuse, but not the devices.
>
> Some protection schemes are too slow acting so do not work with a saturating
> transformer as the load.
Well then they should act faster.
>
> The SOA of devices like 2N3055s etc is just not sufficient without fast
> acting current limiting.
So makers should take account of the fragility of all devices.
>
> Some SS amps make their own sub-sonic thumps when switched on or off - no
> serious problem with ordinary speakers.
Especially ones with capacitor coupling to the speaker
because the dc voltage at the output has to be at 1/2 the single voltage
rail.
But not all thump.
>
> That you lack technical experience, undemanding an imagination
>
> IS NOT MY PROBLEM !!
I don't lack the technical experience.
Just WHO are you addressing your post??
A phantom?
Patrick Turner.
>
> ....... Phil
Patrick Turner
If he chucks emu eggs, I will have to invest in a crash helmet.
The flame suit I wear also works against eggs, and any vegetable such as
damp lettuce leaves
even when furiously hurled by our Summer Hill resident.
Patrick Turner.
roughplanet
"roughplanet"
> ** Piss off - you pathetic, commie, egg chucking fuckwit.
Awww Phil. I didn't know you cared :-).
ruff
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner ASD Fucked Moron From Hell "
>> ** Nope - you are wrong.
>>
>> Tested ESL 57s with serial numbers as low a # 256 and as high as #
>> 44,500.
>>
>> All same, 0.30 ohms +/- 10%.
>
>
> Sorry Phil, but I will believe what my meter says rather than believe
> you.
** Wrong topic - you asinine fucking moron.
Quad ESL57 input trannies have 0.30 ohms resistance primaries.
All of them.
Fuck knows what pile of crap you have come across.
No interest to anyone.
...... Phil
roughplanet
news:45ebeb93...@news.iprimus.com.au...
"roughplanet"
Yep, it's my history as told by Philthy Allison. A better biographer would
be
hard to find, as like all unofficial biographers, Philthy has no trouble in
making
'educated guesses' when he's a bit light on for facts :-).
ruff
Patrick Turner
OK, so,
-------------------------------
Statement. If I normally rise at 8am, and I sleep in to get +3dB more
sleep.
Q1. When did I get up?
A1. You need to know when I went to bed.
Q2. So when?
A2. 12 midnight.
Theory. There are 8 hours from midnight to 8am.
increasing the hours of sleep by 3 dB means increasing
hours by a factor of 1.414. 1.414 x 8 = 11.28.
A3. Time of getting out of bed after +3dB more sleep = 16.8 minutes past
11, am.
-------------------------------
Statement. I lost 15kg since last July. Weight was 92Kg in July.
Its now 77Kg.
Q. What was the weight change in dB?
A. The weight change was -1.545942 dB
------------------------------
Please derive the formula for working the above figures out and provide
proof.
That's your homework for today.
>
> --
> Eiron.
Phil Allison
" Laurie Dare"
>
> Paul Packer
** Laurie Dare, born December 1944, former Victorian Communist Party
Secretary, hoax bomb planter in Swanson Street & criminal assaulter of Sir
Bob Menzies in the grounds of Melbourne Uni.
Address: 70 Jeffery Drive, Ringwood.
Phone: (03) 9812 6053
>> Gee, I think he nailed you there, Ruff. Your whole history in one
>> sentence. :-)
>
>
> Yep, it's my history as told by Philthy Allison. A better biographer
> would be hard to find, as like all unofficial biographers, Philthy
> has no trouble in making 'educated guesses' when he's a bit light
> on for facts :-).
** Like me to publish the incriminating cassette tape I have - Laurie ?
If you lied - that is your problem.
...... Phil
roughplanet
news:45EBF9E5...@turneraudio.com.au...
Phil Allison wrote:
> > >> >> > I do not know exactly what the R dc is.
> > >> >> ** I do - it is a tiny 300 milliohms.
> > >> >> Peter Baxandall's equivalent schematic of the ESL57 drawn up
> > >> >> and published in about 1957 shows 0.6 ohms DCR in the primary
> > >> >> winding.
> > >> > ** Then he got it wrong.
> > >> > Go and measure it yourself - you fucking PITA FOOL !!!!.
> > >> I just did.
> > >> The Quad ESL57 in my workshop has 1.2ohms dcr across its input
> > >> terminals, which makes you wrong by a factor of +12dB.
> >> ** Nope - you are wrong.
> >> Tested ESL 57s with serial numbers as low a # 256 and as high as #
> >> 44,500.
> > They were the 'matched pair' Phil used to own :-).
> >> All same, 0.30 ohms +/- 10%.
> > As those speakers were stuffed, the measurements were likely to be
stuffed
> > too :-).
> > Sorry Phil, but I will believe what my meter says rather than believe
you.
> > Then WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM Phil? Perhaps it's 'undemanding an
> > imagination', whatever that means :-).
> I don't lack the technical experience.
> Just WHO are you addressing your post??
> A phantom?
You're close Patrick. Philthy, the unofficial biographer & ghost writer for
the ill-informed, addresses his posts to anyone silly enough to read them.
Beggars can't be choosers, and Philthy's audience is smaller these days than
it's ever been.
ruff
Patrick Turner
> > > IS NOT MY PROBLEM !!
Someone else replied,
> > > Then WHAT IS YOUR PROBLEM Phil? Perhaps it's 'undemanding an
> > > imagination', whatever that means :-).
I said
> > I don't lack the technical experience.
> > Just WHO are you addressing your post??
> > A phantom?
Then ruff said
> You're close Patrick. Philthy, the unofficial biographer & ghost writer for
> the ill-informed, addresses his posts to anyone silly enough to read them.
> Beggars can't be choosers, and Philthy's audience is smaller these days than
> it's ever been.
>
> ruff
The passage of the thread has become shipwrecked on the rocks of
"personality clash limitations."
I suggest people disengage with Phil because it only looks like rapidly
getting a lot worse.
We got this far with talking about Quad ESL57, and it has been
informative for me, and I
hope to others. Maybe there isn't more we need to say about ESL57 for
awhile.
Phil is a bright star of the groups, but his brightness is nulled
by his limited ability to stay peaceably engaged in logical and
scholarly discussions at all times
when he is challenged in any way, rightly or wrongly.
I don't think Phil asked for what he has, ie, a very difficult
personality.
He's sure got one though.
So its no use ganging up on Phil and beating him up.
That IS a waste of time.
Patrick Turner.
roughplanet
" Laurie Dare"
Paul Packer
> ** Laurie Dare, born December 1944, former Victorian Communist Party
> Secretary, hoax bomb planter in Swanson Street & criminal assaulter of
Sir
> Bob Menzies in the grounds of Melbourne Uni.
Wrong Philthy. Just more of your lies, half truths & 'educated guesses'.
> Address: 70 Jeffery Drive, Ringwood.
Even that's not my address.
> Phone: (03) 9812 6053
Hooray. You got one right, but one out of five (20%) isn't very good odds
where the truth's concerned Philthy.
But keep trying. You might get it up to 25% by 2010 :-).
> >> Gee, I think he nailed you there, Ruff. Your whole history in one
> >> sentence. :-)
> > Yep, it's my history as told by Philthy Allison. A better biographer
> > would be hard to find, as like all unofficial biographers, Philthy
> > has no trouble in making 'educated guesses' when he's a bit light
> > on for facts :-).
> ** Like me to publish the incriminating cassette tape I have - Laurie
?
You can publish anything you like Philthy, but I doubt you have any tape at
all or we would have seen, or rather heard it by now. It's a bit like that
mythical tape of Patrick Turner, isn't it?
You're all BS & blather Philthy.
> If you lied - that is your problem.
My problem? How's that? You have told more lies on this newsgroup than
everyone else combined. I can trot out page after page of them any time
you'd like me to
Go back to whatever newsgroup you have been frequenting of late. They're
missing you. Not.
ruff
Phil Allison
>
> Paul Packer
>
>> ** Laurie Dare, born December 1944, former Victorian Communist Party
>> Secretary, hoax bomb planter in Swanson Street & criminal assaulter of
>> Sir Bob Menzies in the grounds of Melbourne Uni.
>
> Wrong Philthy. Just more of your lies, half truths & 'educated guesses'.
>
>> Address: 70 Jeffery Drive, Ringwood.
>
> Even that's not my address.
** Fraid it is - you ASD fucked criminal idiot.
>> Phone: (03) 9812 6053
>> > Hooray.
** Like me to publish the incriminating cassette tape I have - Laurie ?
> You can publish anything you like Philthy, but I doubt you have any tape
> at
> all or we would have seen, or rather heard it by now.
** How ?
>> If you lied - that is your problem.
>
> My problem? How's that?
** It is no defamation if your own lies are reported in public -
YOU FUCKING STUPID PILE of DOG SHIT !!!
........ Phil
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner ASD Fucked Moron From Hell "
>> ** Nope - you are wrong.
>>
>> Tested ESL 57s with serial numbers as low a # 256 and as high as #
>> 44,500.
>>
>> All same, 0.30 ohms +/- 10%.
>
>
> Sorry Phil, but I will believe what my meter says rather than believe
> you.
** Wrong topic - you asinine fucking moron.
Phil Allison
"Patrick Turner ASD Fucked Moron From Hell "
>> ** Nope - you are wrong.
>>
>> Tested ESL 57s with serial numbers as low a # 256 and as high as #
>> 44,500.
>>
>> All same, 0.30 ohms +/- 10%.
>
>
Eiron
You're still confused about whether to multiply your logs by ten or twenty.
While either method is self-consistent, you must get it right in order
to be able to work with decibels for power and voltage. To be at all useful,
if you must express resistance ratios in dB, they should be 10*log(R1/R2).
So if you double the voltage (+6dB) and double the resistance (-3dB)
you get double the power (+3dB).
Anyone got a copy of the IEEE article on the dB-anything?
--
Eiron.
atec 77
>
>
> I don't think Phil asked for what he has, ie, a very difficult
> personality.
> He's sure got one though.
>
> So its no use ganging up on Phil and beating him up.
>
> That IS a waste of time.
>
> Patrick Turner.
Every time I see quads mention I think of how impotent philthy really is
, yes it got money back but now we ALL know it's just an impotent little
tossa , aren't you philthy
Of course this latest Quad sale is fiscally considerably out of it's
reach .
atec 77
philthy has no argument and back into a corner on a door knob just
where it like to be .
Trevor Wilson
>
> "roughplanet"
>
>
> ** Piss off - you pathetic, commie, egg chucking fuckwit.
**Ruff's a Commie? Can I infer that you support that arsehole, John Howard?
YIKES!
--
Trevor Wilson
www.rageaudio.com.au
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
Phil Allison
"Trevor Wilson"
> "Phil Allison"
>>
>> "roughplanet"
>>
>>
>> ** Piss off - you pathetic, commie, egg chucking fuckwit.
>
> **Ruff's a Commie?
** Yes - Laurie Dare is a former party official no less.
Where were you when this was all revealed last year ?
> Can I infer ..
** Of course not - you ass.
..... Phil
Trevor Wilson
>
> "Trevor Wilson"
>> "Phil Allison"
>>>
>>> "roughplanet"
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Piss off - you pathetic, commie, egg chucking fuckwit.
>>
>> **Ruff's a Commie?
>
>
> ** Yes - Laurie Dare is a former party official no less.
>
> Where were you when this was all revealed last year ?
**Are you attempting to suggest that a Commie was worse than (say) a Menzies
supporter or a Howard supporter? I know which I'd prefer. Howard is one of
the most evil, amoral politicians ever to emerge from the slime. I may not
have agreed with everything the Communist Party had to say, but at least
they were trying to help the largest group of people, as opposed to Menzies,
Howard, et al, who are ONLY out to ensure that their small circle of friends
make as much cash as possible. Howard has already demonstrated that he will
use any means to remain in goverment.
We need to more people like Ruff nowadays to get some fairness back into the
system.
Phil Allison
"Trevor Wilson"
> "roughplanet"
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ** Piss off - you pathetic, commie, egg chucking fuckwit.
>>>
>>> **Ruff's a Commie?
>>
>>
>>
>> ** Yes - Laurie Dare is a former party official no less.
>>
>> Where were you when this was all revealed last year ?
>
>
> ** Are you attempting to suggest...
** Read what I wrote - you fucking idiot.
Laurie Dare is an egg chucking, bomb hoaxing commie ratbag.
Only possible use for one of them is impaled on a pole as a scare crow.
Where were you when this was all revealed last year ?
Had you head permanently shoved up your arse as usual ?
....... Phil
paul packer
<in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
>Phil is a bright star of the groups,
Hmmm...I guess everything does depend on your POV.
TT
: On Mon, 05 Mar 2007 13:02:23 GMT, Patrick Turner
: <in...@turneraudio.com.au> wrote:
:
:
: >Phil is a bright star of the groups,
:
: Hmmm...I guess everything does depend on your POV.
Yeah, right! I'm still laughing at PT's comment now as
Philthy is as bright as a Black Hole! :-))
Cheers TT
roughplanet
"Trevor Wilson"
"roughplanet"
> >>>> ** Piss off - you pathetic, commie, egg chucking fuckwit.
> >>> **Ruff's a Commie?
> >> ** Yes - Laurie Dare is a former party official no less.
> >> Where were you when this was all revealed last year ?
> > ** Are you attempting to suggest...
Notice the way Philthy snips YOUR post to pieces TW, but abuses others who
do
the same to him.
Sure, I was Treasurer of the Victorian Branch of the ACP for 7 years, and am
proud of it. As the saying goes....'If you're not a Socialist at 20, you
have no heart. If you're still one at 50, you have no brains'.
However, my political leanings are still heavily to the left, as like you, I
believe that John Howard is, without doubt, one of the most amoral
politicians this country has ever elected.
He will go down in history as having done virtually nothing to support the
average working man or woman, but everything to ensure that his mates at the
top end of town pay as little tax and make as much money as possible.
If Philthy supports that type of person, it's little wonder he's such a
right(wing)
royal(ist) PITA.
> ** Read what I wrote - you fucking idiot.
> Laurie Dare is an egg chucking, bomb hoaxing commie ratbag.
More of Philthy's half-truths. He finds the fact that I pelted robert
menzies with rotten eggs as offensive as did robert.
The bomb-in-a-briefcase episode is just another of Philthy's infantile
schoolyard
stories, and is, as usual, only half true.
> Only possible use for one of them is impaled on a pole as a scare crow.
Philthy wouldn't even make a decent scarecrow, as the birds would just laugh
at him, as do most of us :-).
> Where were you when this was all revealed last year ?
Like most people, he couldn't be bothered reading your concoction of lies,
half truths & 'educated guesses'. Rather proves the point, doesn't it
Philthy?
> Had you head permanently shoved up your arse as usual ?
If he shoved it up yours, he could keep your head company.
ruff
roughplanet
" Laurie Dare" wrote in message...
"Paul Packer" wrote in message...
> >> ** Laurie Dare, born December 1944, former Victorian Communist Party
> >> Secretary, hoax bomb planter in Swanson Street & criminal assaulter of
> >> Sir Bob Menzies in the grounds of Melbourne Uni.
> > Wrong Philthy. Just more of your lies, half truths & 'educated guesses'.
> >> Address: 70 Jeffery Drive, Ringwood.
> > Even that's not my address.
> ** Fraid it is - you ASD fucked criminal idiot.
Im afraid you're wrong Philthy. Look it up again & see. I don't live at 70
Jeffery Drive, and never have!
> >> Phone: (03) 9812 6053
> >> > Hooray. Don't snip my posts you PITA. Here's the full version....
Hooray. You got one right, but one out of five (20%) isn't very good odds
where the truth's concerned Philthy.
But keep trying. You might get it up to 25% by 2010 :-).
> ** Like me to publish the incriminating cassette tape I have - Laurie
?
> > You can publish anything you like Philthy, but I doubt you have any tape
> > at all or we would have seen, or rather heard it by now.
> ** How ?
How what? If you don't know how you're going to publish the 'incriminating
cassette tape I have', why bother with the threats?
Just more of the never-ending tale of lies & BS that you go on with
Philthy.
Put up or shut up; in other words, publish the tape, and while you're at it,
the one of Patrick's that you claim to have as well, or just STFU.
We're getting tired of your BS already, and you've only been back 5 minutes.
ruff
Phil Allison
"roughplanet"
>
> " Laurie Dare" wrote in message...
>
> "Paul Packer" wrote in message...
>
>> >> ** Laurie Dare, born December 1944, former Victorian Communist Party
>> >> Secretary, hoax bomb planter in Swanson Street & criminal assaulter
>> >> of
>> >> Sir Bob Menzies in the grounds of Melbourne Uni.
>
>
>> > Even that's not my address.
>
>> ** Fraid it is - you ASD fucked criminal idiot.
>
> Im afraid you're wrong Philthy. Look it up again & see. I don't live at 70
> Jeffery Drive, and never have!
** Yes you do - you ASD FUCKED CRIMINAL MORON .
Phone: (03) 9812 6053
>> ** Like me to publish the incriminating cassette tape I have - Laurie
>> ?
>
>> > You can publish anything you like Philthy, but I doubt you have any
>> > tape
>> > at all or we would have seen, or rather heard it by now.
>
>> ** How ?
>
> How what?
** How would you have heard it by now - FUCKWIT .
Funny how I have transcribed and posted long passages, word for word, from
a tape I do not have.
....... Phil
atec 77
>
> a tape I do not have.
>
>
>
> ....... Phil
>
>
Finally the truth .
Patrick Turner
Trevor Wilson wrote:
>
> "Phil Allison" <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
> news:553dktF...@mid.individual.net...
> >
> > "Trevor Wilson"
> >> "Phil Allison"
> >>>
> >>> "roughplanet"
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> ** Piss off - you pathetic, commie, egg chucking fuckwit.
> >>
> >> **Ruff's a Commie?
> >
> >
> > ** Yes - Laurie Dare is a former party official no less.
> >
> > Where were you when this was all revealed last year ?
>
> **Are you attempting to suggest that a Commie was worse than (say) a Menzies
> supporter or a Howard supporter? I know which I'd prefer. Howard is one of
> the most evil, amoral politicians ever to emerge from the slime. I may not
> have agreed with everything the Communist Party had to say, but at least
> they were trying to help the largest group of people, as opposed to Menzies,
> Howard, et al, who are ONLY out to ensure that their small circle of friends
> make as much cash as possible. Howard has already demonstrated that he will
> use any means to remain in goverment.
I tend to agree with you for once in my life.
When you hear speaches Menzies made, the words could be replaced with
modern issues
about which John Bloward has lied, lied and lied and the two are the
same sort of person.
But I reckon if the world goes to a recession by October, Bloward is
definately
going to be retired by the Australian People. But if they fear nothing
will happen
to their hip pockets, they won't care about the slime ball factor;
they'll vote for the money, like they already have.
And if Rudd gets it, and then the surrouding Labour buffoons fuck it all
up,
they'll be out in 3 years, and then back to the Libs, but
without Bloward.
No matter who gets into power, there is always something to complain
about.
Going nuclear is a giggle eh.
Each person needs say a total of 1,000watts to sustain home and work
lives, 24/7.
So the generators of Oz need to make 20,000MW continuously, on average.
And 20 nuke power stations of 1,000MW capacity will about replace all
fossil fuels. if each power station costs $5bill, then total is say
$100bill over say 10 years.
This is $5,000 for each man woman and child over 10 years.
Expect power bills to RISE. Expect BIG TAX RISES.
No doubt there will be large NIMBY fights, and nuclear corruption on a
grand scale,
al la AWB, and all sorts of other BS. But we will have the means to
deter Indonesia with an H bomb or two, for an extra $1000 per head.
How come the Blowards of this world just cannot tell us straight, and
simply, like I just have,
just what we will be up for if we go nuclear?
My figures are probably +/- 0 to 12dB wrong, I don't have a team of
experts to
advise me, but you all get the gist of something complex but which can
be simply
described, if only they'd STFU about inconsequential trivialities like
Brian Burke.
I reckon Bloward is making a right burke of himself.
Getting rid of Ian Campbell like they did is just sheer BS, although
perhaps the real reason
was because Campbell favoured a parrot instead of a company wanting to
build
a huge wind mill for power.
Phillip Adams reckons Bloward secretly wants to give it to Rudd, rather
than let
it fall into Costello's lap.
Rudd is easily converted into Crudd, and he IS UNPROVEN MATERIAL.
>
> We need to more people like Ruff nowadays to get some fairness back into the
> system.
This I am not so sure about.
In 3,000 years, sea levels will have risen 300 feet and drowned most
cities,
and most people's best habitats, and maybe things will be drifting back
to another ice age, with sea levels falling because we live in slowly
oscillating climatic conditions
between bloody hot times, and ice ages.
12,000 years ago, you could walk to Tasmania, but it was covered in ice.
Now each person on the planet owns 845,000 tonnes of air each.
If each person adds an extra 10 tonnes of CO2 each year to raise the
low% of C02 which keeps the Earth at the nice T, then the result is like
a giant volcano with unknown short/longterm effects, but none look too
good..
Just why anyone would want to walk to Tassie is beyond me....
If our Planet really gets the shits with us, It will kick us off.
Patrick Turner.
atec 77
>
> All bullshit aside I personally like kevy , bloody nice bloke BUT he
brings all the problems the laboring party has suffered from for 40
years , one of them being failure to realise the employer has rights to
( many abuse them of course)
Now I don't have an answer but I am expecting JH to orchestrate the
treasuring being screwed over again and another taking the prime
position because as you all know our treasurer would place an instant
loss at the polls , the next several months are going to be very
interesting especially if the Qld libs prove to be innocent or over
printing , and kevy so far has not fully repudiated the rudd thing .
roughplanet
"roughplanet"
" Laurie Dare" wrote in message...
"Paul Packer" wrote in message...
> >> >> ** Laurie Dare, born December 1944, former Victorian Communist
> >> >> Party Secretary, hoax bomb planter in Swanson Street & criminal
> >> >> assaulter of Sir Bob Menzies in the grounds of Melbourne Uni.
You're full of it Philthy.
Firstly, I was NEVER Secretary of the ACP, EVER.
Secondly, I didn't plant a hoax bomb in Swanston Street EVER, and
Thirdly, if what I did (throw rotten eggs at robert menzies) was criminal
assault, I would have been charged accordingly. I WASN'T, nor was I charged
with ANYTHING ELSE!
Just more of your LIES Philthy. You have told so many lies you that don't
know the difference any more.
> >> >> Address: 70 Jeffery Drive, Ringwood.
> >> > Even that's not my address.
> >> ** Fraid it is - you ASD fucked criminal idiot.
> > Im afraid you're wrong Philthy. Look it up again & see. I don't live at
70
> > Jeffery Drive, and never have!
** Yes you do - you ASD FUCKED CRIMINAL MORON .
No I don't, you poor pathetic cretin. I can see your blood pressure rising
by the minute :-). Stop shouting. It just makes you look all the more
ridiculous.
> >> >> Phone: (03) 9812 6053
> >> > Hooray. You got one right, but one out of five (20%) isn't very good
odds
> >> > where the truth's concerned Philthy.
> >> > But keep trying. You might get it up to 25% by 2010 :-).
> >> ** Like me to publish the incriminating cassette tape I have -
Laurie?
> >> > You can publish anything you like Philthy, but I doubt you have any
> >> > tape at all or we would have seen, or rather heard it by now.
> >> ** How ?
> > How what?
> ** How would you have heard it by now - FUCKWIT .
Must I keep repeating myself Philthy? For Heaven's sake man (or mouse, or
whatever you are), READ what I have said, vis. "If you don't know how you're
going to publish the 'incriminating cassette tape I have', why bother with
the threats?
Just more of the never-ending tale of lies & BS that you go on with
Philthy.
I no longer care what you have to say about me, as almost all of it is
nothing but lies, and, by your own admission, 'educated guesses'.
So put up or shut up Philthy; in other words, publish the tape, and while
you're at it,
the one of Patrick's that you claim to have as well, or just STFU.
I'm tired of your BS Philthy, as, by their comments, are everyone else, and
you've only been back 5 minutes."
> Funny how I have transcribed and posted long passages, word for word, from
> a tape I do not have.
You haven't. Much of what you claim to have transcribed is demonstrably
wrong, which indicates to me that you don't have a tape at all.
Like I said, either publish the tape you claim to have or STFU.
You know you won't publish it Philthy, as it's just more of your lies, isn't
it?
Go back to the other newsgroups you've been frequenting of late, or has the
going gotten too tough there for a liar like you?
ruff
Phil Allison
" Laurie Dare "
>> >> >> ** Laurie Dare, born December 1944, former Victorian Communist
>> >> >> Party Secretary, hoax bomb planter in Swanson Street & criminal
>> >> >> assaulter of Sir Bob Menzies in the grounds of Melbourne Uni.
>
> Firstly, I was NEVER Secretary of the ACP, EVER.
** Never made it past Treasurer and prize arse licker - eh ?
> Secondly, I didn't plant a hoax bomb in Swanston Street EVER, and
** Which street was it then ?
( Must get that tape out and play it back. )
> Thirdly, if what I did (throw rotten eggs at robert menzies) was criminal
> assault,
** Of course it WAS criminal assault.
You would be shot dead on the spot for doing that to the PM today.
>> > Im afraid you're wrong Philthy. Look it up again & see. I don't live at
>>> 70 Jeffery Drive, and never have!
>
> ** Yes you do - you ASD FUCKED CRIMINAL MORON .
>
> No I don't, you poor pathetic cretin.
** Yes you do - you ASD FUCKED CRIMINAL MORON .
>
>> >> ** Like me to publish the incriminating cassette tape I have -
> Laurie?
>
>> >> > You can publish anything you like Philthy, but I doubt you have any
>> >> > tape at all or we would have seen, or rather heard it by now.
>
>> >> ** How ?
>
>> > How what?
>
>> ** How would you have heard it by now - FUCKWIT .
>
> Must I keep repeating myself Philthy?
** Try answering the question.
> So put up or shut up Philthy; in other words, publish the tape, and while
> you're at it, the one of Patrick's that you claim to have as well, or just
> STFU.
** You do not speak for anyone else - CUNTHEAD !
Pat Turner has publicly admitted to the entire content of that
conversation - but INSANELY insists the voice on the tape is not his.
The funniest bit is, he will not listen to it !!!!!!!!
What a hoot !!
> > Funny how I have transcribed and posted long passages, word for word,
> > from
>> a tape I do not have.
>
> You haven't.
** Shame how I have.
> Much of what you claim to have transcribed is demonstrably
> wrong,
** LOL - it is all on the tape.
If you lied - that is your problem, CUNTHEAD !
> Like I said, either publish the tape you claim to have or STFU.
** I will do neither, just at the moment.
Cos no ASD fucked, bloated, commie egg chucking cunt like YOU tells me what
to do.
........ Phil
TT
"roughplanet" <rough...@optushome.com.au> wrote in
message
news:45ee3601$0$4753$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
:
: I no longer care what you have to say about me, as almost
: nothing but lies, and, by your own admission, 'educated
guesses'.
This is the Philthy Analson method of NG harassment - better
known as a "Fishing Expedition." ;-) Others may even call
it "wild guesses" or "a stab in the dark". So he just keeps
throwing muck until a snippet actually gets a reaction and
it develops from there. All classic stuff really.
: So put up or shut up Philthy; in other words, publish the
tape, and while
: you're at it,
: the one of Patrick's that you claim to have as well, or
just STFU.
The offer of free web space on my site still stands. All
Philthy has to do is transcribe either tape to MP3 and email
it to me and I will put it up for all to see. Pat and
yourself are fairly safe IMHO ;-) But I would love to hear
Pat telling Philthy he wasn't a nice person (or words that
conveyed that meaning anyway) ;-)
: ruff
Cheers TT
roughplanet
news:45ee3b85$1...@quokka.wn.com.au...
"roughplanet" <rough...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
> news:45ee3601$0$4753$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> : I no longer care what you have to say about me, as almost
> all of it is nothing but lies, and, by your own admission, 'educated
> guesses'.
> This is the Philthy Analson method of NG harassment - better
> known as a "Fishing Expedition." ;-) Others may even call
> it "wild guesses" or "a stab in the dark". So he just keeps
> throwing muck until a snippet actually gets a reaction and
> it develops from there. All classic stuff really.
> : So put up or shut up Philthy; in other words, publish the tape, and
while
> : you're at it, the one of Patrick's that you claim to have as well, or
just STFU.
> The offer of free web space on my site still stands. All
> Philthy has to do is transcribe either tape to MP3 and email
> it to me and I will put it up for all to see. Pat and
> yourself are fairly safe IMHO ;-) But I would love to hear
> Pat telling Philthy he wasn't a nice person (or words that
> conveyed that meaning anyway) ;-)
He won't do it; you know it, I know it & he knows it. It's just a case of
'Liar, liar, pants on fire'.
ruff
TT
:
<snipped usual disgusting assinine drivel>
:
: ........ Philthy the liar
:
So I take it that is a NO about you having a good time at
the Mardi Gras this year? Your pent up frustrations and
anger is showing.
So how about a nice cuppa, a little lay down and then ring
that nice doctor back again that has been helping you for
the past couple of months?
TT (still uno numero)
roughplanet
" Laurie Dare" wrote in message..............
> >> >> >> ** Laurie Dare, born December 1944, former Victorian Communist
> >> >> >> Party Secretary, hoax bomb planter in Swanson Street & criminal
> >> >> >> assaulter of Sir Bob Menzies in the grounds of Melbourne Uni.
> > Firstly, I was NEVER Secretary of the ACP, EVER.
> ** Never made it past Treasurer and prize arse licker - eh ?
And YOU made it to............exactly nothing, eh Philthy?
> > Secondly, I didn't plant a hoax bomb in Swanston Street EVER, and
> ** Which street was it then ?
You're telling the story Philthy, you tell me!
> ( Must get that tape out and play it back. )
There is NO tape Philthy. Admit it, and then we can all go home.
> > Thirdly, if what I did (throw rotten eggs at robert menzies) was
criminal
> > assault,
> ** Of course it WAS criminal assault.
No it wasn't Philthy. Wrong again.
> You would be shot dead on the spot for doing that to the PM today.
In case you missed it, the event that you're referring to happened in 1963.
Thats 44 years ago Philthy, and whilst I know nothing much has happened in
your life since then, the rest of us have moved on quite a ways.
> >> > Im afraid you're wrong Philthy. Look it up again & see. I don't live
at
> >>> 70 Jeffery Drive, and never have!
> > ** Yes you do - you ASD FUCKED CRIMINAL MORON .
> > No I don't, you poor pathetic cretin. I can see your blood pressure
rising
> > by the minute :-). Stop shouting. It just makes you look all the more
> > ridiculous.
> ** Yes you do - you ASD FUCKED CRIMINAL MORON .
No I don't Philthy. That's one of your more severe personality problems; you
can't EVER admit that you're wrong even when the truth is staring you in the
face.
I don't live at the address you mentioned no matter how much you insist that
I do.
What a pathetic specimen of man(?)kind you are.
> >> >> ** Like me to publish the incriminating cassette tape I have -
Laurie?
> >> >> > You can publish anything you like Philthy, but I doubt you have
any
> >> >> > tape at all or we would have seen, or rather heard it by now.
> >> >> ** How ?
> >> > How what?
> >> ** How would you have heard it by now - FUCKWIT .
> > Must I keep repeating myself Philthy? For Heaven's sake man (or mouse,
or
> > whatever you are), READ what I have said, vis. "If you don't know how
you're
> > going to publish the 'incriminating cassette tape I have', why bother
with the
> > threats?
> > Just more of the never-ending tale of lies & BS that you go on with
Philthy.
> > I no longer care what you have to say about me, as almost all of it is
> > nothing but lies, and, by your own admission, 'educated guesses'.
> > So put up or shut up Philthy; in other words, publish the tape, and
while
> > you're at it, the one of Patrick's that you claim to have as well, or
just STFU.
> > I'm tired of your BS Philthy, as, by their comments, are everyone else,
and
> > you've only been back 5 minutes."
> ** Try answering the question.
> ** You do not speak for anyone else - CUNTHEAD !
Don't I? I haven't seen any remarks from Patrick to the contrary - FOOL :-).
> Pat Turner has publicly admitted to the entire content of that
conversation -
> but INSANELY insists the voice on the tape is not his.
> The funniest bit is, he will not listen to it !!!!!!!!
> What a hoot !!
No, you're misrepresenting what he said altogether, but then, that's your
stock in trade, isn't it? What Patrick said was, as I understood it, that he
wouldn't believe what he heard on any tape that you had made, and I can't
say I blame him.
Your reputation as a liar on this and every other newsgroup precludes
anything you say from being believed by anyone.
> > > Funny how I have transcribed and posted long passages, word for word,
> > > from a tape I do not have.
> > You haven't. Much of what you claim to have transcribed is demonstrably
> > wrong, which indicates to me that you don't have a tape at all.
> ** Shame how I have.
Then prove it by publishing it, or else be thought of as the BIGGEST LIAR on
this or any other newsgroup.
After all, you DID say "Like me to publish the incriminating cassette tape I
have -
Laurie?"
Well Philthy, I would.
> ** LOL - it is all on the tape.
> If you lied - that is your problem, CUNTHEAD !
No Philthy, it's not my credibility that's at stake here, it's YOURS.
Like I said, either publish the tape you claim to have or continue to be
thought of
as a totally amoral LIAR & CHEAT.
> ** I will do neither, just at the moment.
Of course not, because you don''t have the tape at all LIAR!!
> Cos no ASD fucked, bloated, commie egg chucking cunt like YOU tells me
what
> to do.
What a poor excuse. Admit it Philthy, there is NO tape, and never was.
Publish or piss off.
ruff
Iain Churches
>
> ** Like me to publish the incriminating cassette tape I have
Oh Gawd! Here we go - Summergate.
atec 77
> " Laurie Dare "
>
> >
>
>
>> Like I said, either publish the tape you claim to have or STFU.
>
>
> ** I will do neither, just at the moment.
>
> Cos no ASD fucked, bloated, commie egg chucking cunt like YOU tells me what
> to do.
>
>
>
>
>
> ........ Phil
>
>
I defy you to liar .
roughplanet
news:d1CHh.10882$I92....@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi...
Hi Iain.
Yes, Philthy has run out of meds again, plus it's been a full moon, so what
else can we expect?
His behaviour is cyclical, inasmuch as he 'wears out his welcome' on the
newsgroups he is currently using, or should that be 'abusing', and then
returns to the old ones until the fire gets too hot, at which point he
disappears again to a new set of groups, only to return again when his
masochism demands that he endure another round of scorn and derision.
You can almost mark his returns & departures on the calendar, he is so
predictable.
One fine day he won't show up at all, and we'll all know that he has gone to
meet his maker, whoever or whatever that may be :-).
By the way Iain, anything to report on that other matter (not here of
course)? I have drawn blanks wherever & whenever I have attempted to
investigate.
Regards,
ruff
bassett
"roughplanet" <rough...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
> Im afraid you're wrong Philthy. Look it up again & see. I don't live at 70
> Jeffery Drive, and never have!
>
> ruff
In that case you better get yourself round there, They have all your
Christmas cards from year dot.
roughplanet
news:45ef...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
"roughplanet" <rough...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
> > Im afraid you're wrong Philthy. Look it up again & see. I don't live at
70
> > Jeffery Drive, and never have!
> In that case you better get yourself round there, They have all your
> Christmas cards from year dot.
Not so. Check the address again bassett......carefully.
ruff
bassett
would be much simpler to ignore him.
He posts a load of rubbish from year dot, explains that he has audio
tapes of god knows what, and everyone jumps to attention, bites the
bone and offers more fuel to his little fire.
He tells you that he has your home address, So what, I have everyone's
address, it's called a phone book. Big deal.
Just ignore him, and let him shrivel up in the sunlight, If there
is any sunlight in that hovel he calls a home, which is no-doubt
rented. in Summer Hill [which is flat, anyway] or Petersham, or one of
those grotty little suburbs, between Central Railway and Strathfield.
The truth would be more likely, he's a long term resident of the
"Mathew Talbert" men's home, and he spends his Dole money in an internet
cafe, irritating gullible people with nothing better to do with there
time.
bassett
paul packer
I don't often agree with you, bassett ( never, come to think of it),
but I have to agree with every word of the above.
bassett
Your back on my Christmas card list
lov bassett
roughplanet
news:45f295dc...@news.iprimus.com.au...
On Sat, 10 Mar 2007 18:15:29 +1100, "bassett"
<bas...@bassettskennal.com.au> wrote:
"roughplanet" <rough...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:45ef78a7$0$16553$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> >>> > Im afraid you're wrong Philthy. Look it up again & see. I don't live
at
> >>> > 70 Jeffery Drive, and never have!
> >>> In that case you better get yourself round there, They have all your
> >>> Christmas cards from year dot.
> >> Not so. Check the address again bassett......carefully.
> > I really don't understand why you play these games with this person,
It
> > would be much simpler to ignore him.
> >He posts a load of rubbish from year dot, explains that he has audio
> >tapes of god knows what, and everyone jumps to attention, bites the
> >bone and offers more fuel to his little fire.
> >
> > He tells you that he has your home address, So what, I have everyone's
> > address, it's called a phone book. Big deal.
> > Just ignore him, and let him shrivel up in the sunlight, If there
> > is any sunlight in that hovel he calls a home, which is no-doubt
> > rented in Summer Hill [which is a flat, anyway] or Petersham, or one of
> >those grotty little suburbs, between Central Railway and Strathfield.
> >
> > The truth would be more likely, he's a long term resident of the
> >"Mathew Talbert" men's home, and he spends his Dole money in an internet
> >cafe, irritating gullible people with nothing better to do with there
time.
> I don't often agree with you, bassett ( never, come to think of it),
> but I have to agree with every word of the above.
Ahh..but you've both missed the point entirely. I don't care a stuff whether
or not he knows my address (but can't spell the street name properly), my
academic record, my political persuasion or the names of my dogs for that
matter.
You were half right bassett when you said " I really don't understand why
you play these games with this person", 'cos if you'd thought about it a
little
more (and you too, Paul) you'd see that I was setting poor old Philthy up
for a fall, a bit like Humpty Dumpty.
The open letter to the newsgroup was merely a tool to call his bluff, and
thereby extract an admission from him, no matter how convoluted, that
he had no letter, and was therefore the liar that I (and no doubt, others)
know him to be.
That's it. Merely a game; the one known as 'Liar, liar, pants on fire' but I
didn't have to lie or pretend I had something I didn't have in order to get
Philthy to 'spill the beans'.
But come now; you both knew that, didn't you :-)?
ruff
paul packer
Actually my comment was meant to encompass the whole sorry saga from
begining to end. Why do we react to this person at all? He's a total
ratbag and nothing he says is worth reading. I intend not to waste my
time on him any further.
bassett
I find I have to agree with our friend Paul, But I still can't
understand why you would want to poke the fire, when we all know that
your gunna get sparks, followed by all the bullshit that he thinks
are important, and really it's all he has in his sad little life.
I collect C.D.s You collect Vinyl, He collects tapes of what was
said 20 years ago, and
he plays them every night, while he kneels by his little bed, [[ Which
is a perfect copy of a nice little red motor car ]] and prays that
someone somewhere will except him.
Then he gets on here and rants and raves about bugger all, and the
faithful all bite, and we have the same old arguments going round and
round. Next thing "Bottlehead" will be on about a late night phone call,
And how he tried to argue the reasons behind it, Then "bottlehead"
will re-print what was also said 20 years ago.. And so it goes on.
It was peaceful on here for a while, now we are back where we where,
when Phyllis or should that be Phallus, first started ranting and
raving,, Really he resembles a festering sore on the arse of society,
and you lot continue to poke it into life.
bassett
roughplanet
"paul packer" <pac...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:45f3d1d0...@news.iprimus.com.au...
On Sun, 11 Mar 2007 17:40:13 +1100, "roughplanet"
<rough...@optushome.com.au> wrote:
> >>> >>> > Im afraid you're wrong Philthy. Look it up again & see. I don't
> >>> >>> > live at 70 Jeffery Drive, and never have!
> >>> >>> In that case you better get yourself round there, They have all
> >>> >>> your Christmas cards from year dot.
> >>> >> Not so. Check the address again bassett......carefully.
<snip for brevity's sake>
> It was peaceful on here for a while, now we are back where we were,
> when Phyllis or should that be Phallus, first started ranting and
raving,,
> Really he resembles a festering sore on the arse of society, and you lot
> continue to poke it into life.
After reconsidering, I agree with you 100%. I will let Phallus return from
whence he came.
ruff
atec 77
what ever species that involves .
TT
"atec 77" <""atec77 \"@ hotmail.com"> wrote in message
news:45f50655$0$1148$61c6...@un-2park-reader-01.sydney.pipenetworks.com.au...
:
: > After reconsidering, I agree with you 100%. I will let
: > whence he came.
: >
: > ruff
: >
: >
: His mother might object
Who says he doesn't/hasn't already? ;-)
Cheers TT :-))
atec 77
mofo ?
TT
Probably ;-)