Tingles from DVD players
Russ_Verdon
players from the same place. They both work. The only thing I can think is
that they give you a small shock between their chassis and power earth. I
can only surmise that the owner thought they were faulty and ditched them as
a result. I have picked up another DVD player in similar circunstances,
going, but tingling.
I believe the shock would be some capacitive coupling to their chassis from
the switchmode PS. I can measure 105 volts AC from their chassis to earth,
but no current .
Is there any rule that stops you earthing these devices, given that the
connection via the signal leads to an earthed amp etc would probably do this
anyway?
Do the manufacturers expect all devices to be turned off so that customers
don't experience shocks when changing leads around? If chassis earthing
elminates this issue, then it would be a nice feature and customer friendly
to do so. I guess the amount of copper / star washer etc saved per unit for
them outweighs thoughts for the customer.
Any comments?
Russell
Phil Allison
"Russ_Verdon"
>
> Hi, I just did a round of "kerbside shopping" and picked up 2x Digitor
> DVD
> players from the same place. They both work. The only thing I can think is
> that they give you a small shock between their chassis and power earth. I
> can only surmise that the owner thought they were faulty and ditched them
> as
> a result. I have picked up another DVD player in similar circunstances,
> going, but tingling.
> I believe the shock would be some capacitive coupling to their chassis
> from
> the switchmode PS. I can measure 105 volts AC from their chassis to earth,
> but no current .
> Is there any rule that stops you earthing these devices, given that the
> connection via the signal leads to an earthed amp etc would probably do
> this
> anyway?
** Yes - the units are not longer "double insulated" or of "class 2"
construction if you substitute a 3 core lead.
> Do the manufacturers expect all devices to be turned off so that customers
> don't experience shocks when changing leads around?
** Only a few folk feel any tingle at all.
> If chassis earthing
> elminates this issue, then it would be a nice feature and customer
> friendly
> to do so.
** Completely silly.
The use of Class 2 construction is a VERY deliberate decision and for very
good reasons.
>I guess the amount of copper / star washer etc saved per unit for
> them outweighs thoughts for the customer.
** Absolute crapology.
> Any comments?
** You seriously temp me.
Never heard of earth loop hum ?????
......... Phil
Chris Jones
>
> "Russ_Verdon"
>>
>> Hi, I just did a round of "kerbside shopping" and picked up 2x Digitor
>> DVD
>> players from the same place. They both work. The only thing I can think
>> is that they give you a small shock between their chassis and power
>> earth. I can only surmise that the owner thought they were faulty and
>> ditched them as
>> a result. I have picked up another DVD player in similar circunstances,
>> going, but tingling.
>> I believe the shock would be some capacitive coupling to their chassis
>> from
>> the switchmode PS. I can measure 105 volts AC from their chassis to
>> earth, but no current .
>> Is there any rule that stops you earthing these devices, given that the
>> connection via the signal leads to an earthed amp etc would probably do
>> this
>> anyway?
>
>
> ** Yes - the units are not longer "double insulated" or of "class 2"
> construction if you substitute a 3 core lead.
Sure, that seems obvious. The device would then be modified, the original
electrical approval would not be valid, and it would not be possible to
approve the device as a class 2 device with the case earthed. Are you
aware of any technical reason why the device could not be approved as a
class 1 device (hypothetically, since the cost of testing would be more
than prohibitive)? To the best of my knowledge the insulation requirements
of a class 2 device are more strict than would be required for a class 1
device, though I don't know if there are any fusing requirements for class
1 which would not have applied to the class 2 device when it was built.
>
>> Do the manufacturers expect all devices to be turned off so that
>> customers don't experience shocks when changing leads around?
>
>
> ** Only a few folk feel any tingle at all.
>
>
>> If chassis earthing
>> elminates this issue, then it would be a nice feature and customer
>> friendly
>> to do so.
>
>
> ** Completely silly.
>
> The use of Class 2 construction is a VERY deliberate decision and for very
> good reasons.
Apart from the earth loop hum you refer to, what reasons are you referring
to?
>
>
>>I guess the amount of copper / star washer etc saved per unit for
>> them outweighs thoughts for the customer.
>
>
> ** Absolute crapology.
>
>> Any comments?
>
>
> ** You seriously temp me.
>
> Never heard of earth loop hum ?????
>
>
>
>
> ......... Phil
Chris
Phil Allison
"Chris Jones"
> Phil Allison wrote:
>>
>>> Is there any rule that stops you earthing these devices, given that the
>>> connection via the signal leads to an earthed amp etc would probably do
>>> this
>>> anyway?
>>
>>
>> ** Yes - the units are not longer "double insulated" or of "class 2"
>> construction if you substitute a 3 core lead.
>
> Sure, that seems obvious.
** You have completely missed the point.
> The device would then be modified, the original
> electrical approval would not be valid,
** Correct - so the markings on the unit (ie "class 2" and the double
square symbols) would be then ILLEGAL.
> and it would not be possible to
> approve the device as a class 2 device with the case earthed. Are you
> aware of any technical reason why the device could not be approved as a
> class 1 device (hypothetically, since the cost of testing would be more
> than prohibitive)?
** Yawn.
This is an entirely separate issue to the OP's question AND my reply.
>>
>>> If chassis earthing elminates this issue, then it would be a nice
>>> feature and customer friendly to do so.
>>
>>
>> ** Completely silly.
>>
>> The use of Class 2 construction is a VERY deliberate decision and for
>> very
>> good reasons.
>
> Apart from the earth loop hum you refer to, what reasons are you referring
> to?
** 1. Class 2 construction is far SAFER for the user.
2. Class 2 construction meets world wide electrical approvals making it far
easier for makers to market the same design world wide.
3. The use of class 2 is almost universal for some classes of electronic
equipment.
4. There is a PROHIBITION on interconnecting class 1 and class 2 equipment.
........ Phil
Jasen Betts
>>> ** Completely silly.
>>>
>>> The use of Class 2 construction is a VERY deliberate decision and for
>>> very
>>> good reasons.
>>
>> Apart from the earth loop hum you refer to, what reasons are you referring
>> to?
>
> ** 1. Class 2 construction is far SAFER for the user.
>
> 2. Class 2 construction meets world wide electrical approvals making it far
> easier for makers to market the same design world wide.
>
> 3. The use of class 2 is almost universal for some classes of electronic
> equipment.
>
> 4. There is a PROHIBITION on interconnecting class 1 and class 2 equipment.
like a laplink cable?
Bye.
Jasen
Phil Allison
"Jasen Betts" <ja...@free.net.nz>
> like a laplink cable?
** Piss off - kiwi tenth wit.
The sheep are missing you.
....... Phil
Chris Jones
>
> "Chris Jones"
>> Phil Allison wrote:
>>>
>>>> Is there any rule that stops you earthing these devices, given that the
>>>> connection via the signal leads to an earthed amp etc would probably do
>>>> this
>>>> anyway?
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Yes - the units are not longer "double insulated" or of "class 2"
>>> construction if you substitute a 3 core lead.
>>
>> Sure, that seems obvious.
>
>
> ** You have completely missed the point.
>
>
>> The device would then be modified, the original
>> electrical approval would not be valid,
>
>
> ** Correct - so the markings on the unit (ie "class 2" and the double
> square symbols) would be then ILLEGAL.
>
>
>> and it would not be possible to
>> approve the device as a class 2 device with the case earthed. Are you
>> aware of any technical reason why the device could not be approved as a
>> class 1 device (hypothetically, since the cost of testing would be more
>> than prohibitive)?
>
>
> ** Yawn.
>
> This is an entirely separate issue to the OP's question AND my reply.
Ok but I was interested, in case you know something about it that I could
learn from. I agree that I am slightly changing the subject, however I
thought it worth asking since the OP or others in a similar position might
be inclined to do whatever they feel like, provided they think it is safe,
but in spite of the law. If there were a serious technical reason why it
would be unsafe, rather than a (re)labelling or legal issue then it would
be good to be aware of it.
>>>
>>>> If chassis earthing elminates this issue, then it would be a nice
>>>> feature and customer friendly to do so.
>>>
>>>
>>> ** Completely silly.
>>>
>>> The use of Class 2 construction is a VERY deliberate decision and for
>>> very
>>> good reasons.
>>
>> Apart from the earth loop hum you refer to, what reasons are you
>> referring to?
>
>
> ** 1. Class 2 construction is far SAFER for the user.
>
> 2. Class 2 construction meets world wide electrical approvals making it
> far easier for makers to market the same design world wide.
>
> 3. The use of class 2 is almost universal for some classes of electronic
> equipment.
>
> 4. There is a PROHIBITION on interconnecting class 1 and class 2
> equipment.
>
>
>
>
>
> ........ Phil
I am surprised by (4) since many hi-fi amplifiers (at least older ones) do
have an earthed case, for better or for worse. It is not made very clear
to the average user that connecting the amplifier to a typical (class 2) CD
player would be prohibited, for example I haven't seen such a warning in
the instruction manual of a CD player. I don't have the necessary
knowledge of the standards to refute what you say, but it does surprise me.
Perhaps you mean something different when you say 'interconnecting' from
what I had interpreted, i.e. connecting a shielded audio cable between two
devices, thus connecting their metal cases together. Anyway thanks for
your answer.
Chris
Phil Allison
"Chris Jones"
** Do you constantly move the goalposts at sporting events too ?
.......... Phil
Phil Allison
"Chris Jones"
Phil Allison wrote:
>> 4. There is a PROHIBITION on interconnecting class 1 and class 2
>> equipment.
>>
> I am surprised by (4)
** Have you never seen the words " Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " on
the back of a class 2 item ??
Pretty clear isn't it?
> since many hi-fi amplifiers (at least older ones) do
> have an earthed case, for better or for worse. It is not made very clear
> to the average user that connecting the amplifier to a typical (class 2)
> CD
> player would be prohibited,
** It is not prohibited by criminal law - so no police officer will arrest
you for doing it.
But it is an * unsafe practice* that could be considered as " serious
negligence " by a court if a person were injured or killed.
> for example I haven't seen such a warning in
> the instruction manual of a CD player.
** " Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " on the back of the player is a
*stronger warning* that anything printed in a user manual that likely gets
lost with the packaging.
Equipment makers are not liable for what users may WRONGLY do when
interconnecting items of gear - so just ignore the issue.
The matter is very much an *X rated topic * in the home entertainment
electronics industry.
> I don't have the necessary
> knowledge of the standards to refute what you say, but it does surprise
> me.
** Imagine a hi-fi system with every item in it class 2 - so there is no AC
ground to the metalwork.
Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just bought
from Ebay but with no AC plug.
Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active and
earth reversed and makes all the connections.
The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
LIVE !!!
In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
!!!!
NOTE:
One of the BIGGEST user safety advantages of class 2 construction is that
no matter how WRONGLY the AC plug is wired & no matter what is wrong with
the AC outlet, you cannot get active onto the earth of the gear.
........ Phil
Terry Given
a major advantage of class 2 is that its cheaper. the plug, cable and
interconnects cost less, and because of the double insulation, none of
the metalwork has to be earthed, which it does with class 1 - for many
standards the metalwork earthing must carry the rated current, further
increasing the cost.
The above scenario can only happen when people fiddle with things, and
so is not relevant to manufacturers (they build them right). Such a
scenario also occurs with a single class 1 appliance wired up by the
same dickhead. Voila, live chassis (and dead operator).
Cheers
Terry
Phil Allison
"Terry Given"
> a major advantage of class 2 is that its cheaper.
** Bullshit it is.
The specs for the AC supply transformer alone are way beyond that for class
1.
The design rules for every part of the AC side are way tougher.
> the plug, cable and interconnects cost less,
** By a few cents only.
> and because of the double insulation, none of the metalwork has to be
> earthed, which it does with class 1 - for many standards the metalwork
> earthing must carry the rated current, further increasing the cost.
** What absolute drivel.
> The above scenario can only happen when people fiddle with things,
** More " Pinball Wizard " bullshit.
> so is not relevant to manufacturers (they build them right).
** It is *very elevata" to the increased safety of class 2.
It is *very relevant" to the PROHIBITION on earthing a class 2 appliance.
> Such a scenario also occurs with a single class 1 appliance wired up by
> the same dickhead.
** But NOT a system of interconnected class 1 appliances.
Hence the prohibition on earthing a class 2 appliance or system thereof.
They are very safe until you do that.
> Voila, live chassis (and dead operator).
** Please go try it now.
....... Phil
Terry Given
> "Terry Given"
>
>
>
>>a major advantage of class 2 is that its cheaper.
>
>
> ** Bullshit it is.
>
> The specs for the AC supply transformer alone are way beyond that for class
> 1.
double insulation pretty much means 2 sets of insulation, so that when
one fails there is still one left. yes the xfmr is a bit more expensive,
but a whole bunch of other stuff gets cheaper.
look inside a hair dryer, that is far, far cheaper as a class 2 device
than class 1.
>
> The design rules for every part of the AC side are way tougher.
>
not really, and they are made easier by the proliferation of plastic.
>
>
>>the plug, cable and interconnects cost less,
>
>
>
> ** By a few cents only.
why do you think they use phenolic paper PCBs, and an interseting mix of
1%, 5%, 10% and 20% components? when you build 500,000,000 of something,
all them cents add up.
>
>
>
>>and because of the double insulation, none of the metalwork has to be
>>earthed, which it does with class 1 - for many standards the metalwork
>>earthing must carry the rated current, further increasing the cost.
>
>
>
> ** What absolute drivel.
>
Phil has obviously never read BS-EN61010
>
>
>>The above scenario can only happen when people fiddle with things,
>
>
>
> ** More " Pinball Wizard " bullshit.
>
>
>
>>so is not relevant to manufacturers (they build them right).
>
>
>
> ** It is *very elevata" to the increased safety of class 2.
>
> It is *very relevant" to the PROHIBITION on earthing a class 2 appliance.
>
>
>
>
>>Such a scenario also occurs with a single class 1 appliance wired up by
>>the same dickhead.
>
>
>
> ** But NOT a system of interconnected class 1 appliances.
depends on the system, and how they are interconnected.
>
> Hence the prohibition on earthing a class 2 appliance or system thereof.
>
> They are very safe until you do that.
>
>
>
>
>>Voila, live chassis (and dead operator).
>
>
>
> ** Please go try it now.
>
>
>
>
> ....... Phil
>
>
Cheers
Terry
Phil Allison
"The Pinball Wizard of Nelson "
>>>a major advantage of class 2 is that its cheaper.
>>
>>
>> ** Bullshit it is.
>>
>> The specs for the AC supply transformer alone are way beyond that for
>> class 1.
>
> double insulation pretty much means 2 sets of insulation,
** Absolute bullshit.
> so that when one fails there is still one left.
** Absolute bullshit.
> yes the xfmr is a bit more expensive,
** Much more - the cheapest construction methods are outlawed.
The popular and cheap toroidal is basically outlawed.
> but a whole bunch of other stuff gets cheaper.
** Absolute bullshit.
> look inside a hair
** The subject is DVD players and the like - fuckhead.
>> The design rules for every part of the AC side are way tougher.
>>
>
> not really,
** Get stuffed - Kiwi LIAR !!
....... Phil
Terry Given
> "The Pinball Wizard of Nelson "
>
>
>
>>>>a major advantage of class 2 is that its cheaper.
>>>
>>>
>>>** Bullshit it is.
>>>
>>>The specs for the AC supply transformer alone are way beyond that for
>>>class 1.
>>
>>double insulation pretty much means 2 sets of insulation,
>
>
>
> ** Absolute bullshit.
>
>
>
>>so that when one fails there is still one left.
>
>
>
> ** Absolute bullshit.
>
ROTFLMAO! You are demonstrably wrong, viz.:
first, lets un-snip what I posted:
"double insulation pretty much means 2 sets of insulation, so that when
one fails there is still one left"
AS/NZS3000:2000 Wiring Rules states:
1.4.26 Class II equipment -
Equipment in which protection against electric shock does not rely on
basic insulation only, but in which additional safety precautions such
as double insulation or reinforced insulation are provided, there being
no provision for protective earthing or reliance upon installation
conditions
1.4.57 Insulation System
One, or a combination of, the following:
(a) Basic Insulation - the insulation applied to live parts, to provide
basic protection against electric shock
(b) Supplementary Insulation - an independant insulation applied in
addition to basic insulation in order to ensure protection against
electric shock in the event of a failure of the Basic Insulation
(c) Double Insulation - insulation comprising both Basic Insulation and
Supplementary Insulation
In other words, exactly what I said.
Bwahahahahaha!
>
>
>>yes the xfmr is a bit more expensive,
>
>
>
> ** Much more - the cheapest construction methods are outlawed.
pah. look at those sorts of xfmrs, its not very complex. split bobbins
with lids basically, and a bit more creepage/clearance. they still wind
them with magnet wire; I've yet to see a consumer xfmr wound with
Furukawa Tex-E or any other form of triple-insulated wire....
>
> The popular and cheap toroidal is basically outlawed.
>
on what basis?
and toroids are not that cheap to wind c.f. an e-core bobbin, especially
the little ones (and the big ones)
>
>
>
>>but a whole bunch of other stuff gets cheaper.
>
>
>
> ** Absolute bullshit.
>
>
>
>>look inside a hair
>
>
>
> ** The subject is DVD players and the like - fuckhead.
>
>
>
>>>The design rules for every part of the AC side are way tougher.
>>>
>>
>>not really,
>
>
>
> ** Get stuffed - Kiwi LIAR !!
>
>
>
>
> ....... Phil
Cheers
Terry
Phil Allison
"The Pinball Wizard of Nelson "
>>>>>a major advantage of class 2 is that its cheaper.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>** Bullshit it is.
>>>>
>>>>The specs for the AC supply transformer alone are way beyond that for
>>>>class 1.
>>>
>>>double insulation pretty much means 2 sets of insulation,
>>
>
>> ** Absolute bullshit.
>>
>>
>>>so that when one fails there is still one left.
>>
>>
>>
>> ** Absolute bullshit.
>>
>
> ROTFLMAO!
** Go fuck yourself - you useless Kiwi ARSEHOLE .
> first, lets un-snip what I posted:
>
> "double insulation pretty much means 2 sets of insulation, so that when
> one fails there is still one left"
** No.
The term "double insulation" is the popular name for "class 2" construction
= a whole set of technical design rules and restricted materials approvals
that make it * SAFE * to use and sell an appliance that has no connection
to the supply earth as a means of preventing electric shock hazard to users.
All way over this Kiwi fuckwit's pointy head.
> In other words, exactly what I said.
** Wrong context - Kiwi ARSEHOLE.
>>>yes the xfmr is a bit more expensive,
>>
>> ** Much more - the cheapest construction methods are outlawed.
>
> pah. look at those sorts of xfmrs, its not very complex.
** Learn to read - you dumb Kiwi ARSEHOLE.
>> The popular and cheap toroidal is basically outlawed.
>>
>
> on what basis?
** Go read AS3108 some day - ARSEHOLE.
Then figure why toroidals are extremely rare in class 2 gear, consumer or
otherwise.
....... Phil
Malcolm Moore
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Chris Jones"
> Phil Allison wrote:
>
>>> 4. There is a PROHIBITION on interconnecting class 1 and class 2
>>> equipment.
>>>
>> I am surprised by (4)
>
>
>** Have you never seen the words " Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " on
>the back of a class 2 item ??
>
> Pretty clear isn't it?
I've just checked all the double insulated items in my home and NONE
of them carry a warning such as you describe. It would be useful to
know how general such a warning is. I suggest everyone reading this
thread check their equipment and report back their findings. My
equipment includes items from NEC, Philips, Sony, Teac, Mitsubishi,
Sanyo & Microsoft.
snip
>Equipment makers are not liable for what users may WRONGLY do when
>interconnecting items of gear - so just ignore the issue.
>
>
>
>The matter is very much an *X rated topic * in the home entertainment
>electronics industry.
So where does the "PROHIBITION" come from?
Previously you said such interconnection was prohibited, now you're
saying to ignore the issue??
>> I don't have the necessary
>> knowledge of the standards to refute what you say, but it does surprise
>> me.
>
>
>** Imagine a hi-fi system with every item in it class 2 - so there is no AC
>ground to the metalwork.
>
>Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just bought
>from Ebay but with no AC plug.
>
>Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active and
>earth reversed and makes all the connections.
>
>The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
>with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
>LIVE !!!
>
>In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
>!!!!
If this danger was significant then the use of Class 2 equipment is
inherently unsafe because it would be relying on user action to make
it safe, the user action being to not interconnect with other commonly
available items. As you say above, "Equipment makers are not liable
for what users may WRONGLY do.....", but regulators are always
interested in such things. They seem relaxed about the situation.
snip
--
Regards
Malcolm
Remove sharp objects to get a valid e-mail address
Chris Jones
I don't consider posting to usenet to be a competition, though you are free
to consider it whatever you want. I just like to learn stuff.
Chris
Chris Jones
Ok, I can see that wiring the plug of the class 1 device wrongly has made
the class 1 device as well as the class 2 device dangerous to touch. I
think that the user was pretty much asking for a jolt whether or not the
class 2 device was connected (or even existed at all), but in principle I
see why the manufacturer of the class 2 device would not want the two
devices interconnected, so the user gets electrocuted whilst touching the
device made by someone else, that would be cheaper in court....
The root cause of the problem is of course having someone who thinks they
can wire a plug but cannot. The problem is they might not be the one to
get killed, it'll be the neighbour's kid or something like that.
>
>
> NOTE:
>
> One of the BIGGEST user safety advantages of class 2 construction is that
> no matter how WRONGLY the AC plug is wired & no matter what is wrong with
> the AC outlet, you cannot get active onto the earth of the gear.
Thanks, that's the first "class 2 is safer" argument that makes sense to me.
In the context of incompetent and/or amateur electricians, no ELCB, and no
regular testing of power socket wiring and portable appliance testing, I
can see that advantage of class 2. Those conditions are probably fairly
common too.
Chris
Phil Allison
"Chris Jones"
>
>
>> ** Do you constantly move the goalposts at sporting events too ?
>>
>
** Then why keep moving the goal posts like is is one you cannot bear to
loose ??
> I just like to learn stuff.
** If you mean that, then why make it impossible for anyone to answer you ?
........ Phil
Phil Allison
"Malcolm Moore"
"Phil Allison"
>>
>>** Have you never seen the words " Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " on
>>the back of a class 2 item ??
>>
>> Pretty clear isn't it?
>
> I've just checked all the double insulated items in my home and NONE
> of them carry a warning such as you describe.
** The warning notice is not compulsory.
Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double Insulated"
are.
>The matter is very much an *X rated topic * in the home entertainment
>>electronics industry.
>
> So where does the "PROHIBITION" come from?
** The fact that a class 2 appliance must not be earthed.
> Previously you said such interconnection was prohibited, now you're
> saying to ignore the issue??
** Huh ???
What madman's logic is this ?
What the hell do you think "X -rated " means ???
>>** Imagine a hi-fi system with every item in it class 2 - so there is no
>>AC
>>ground to the metalwork.
>>
>>Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just
>>bought
>>from Ebay but with no AC plug.
>>
>>Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active and
>>earth reversed and makes all the connections.
>>
>>The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
>>with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
>>LIVE !!!
>>
>>In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
>>!!!!
>
>
> If this danger was significant then the use of Class 2 equipment is
> inherently unsafe because it would be relying on user action to make
> it safe, the user action being to not interconnect with other commonly
> available items.
** Absolute drivel.
Class 2 construction appliances are inherently much safer than class 1
types.
What users do that COMPROMISES that additional safety is beyond the control
of makers or authorities.
>As you say above, "Equipment makers are not liable
> for what users may WRONGLY do.....", but regulators are always
> interested in such things. They seem relaxed about the situation.
** SFA they can do about it.
The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
earth a class 2 item.
........ Phil
Phil Allison
"Chris Jones"
>
>> In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
>> !!!!
>
>
> Ok, I can see that wiring the plug of the class 1 device wrongly has made
> the class 1 device as well as the class 2 device dangerous to touch.
** Not just one device, but an entire hi-fi system INCLUDING the damn
speakers !!!
> I
> think that the user was pretty much asking for a jolt whether or not the
> class 2 device was connected (or even existed at all),
** A third party could be the one electrocuted - maybe a small child.
> but in principle I
> see why the manufacturer of the class 2 device would not want the two
> devices interconnected, so the user gets electrocuted whilst touching the
> device made by someone else, that would be cheaper in court....
** The makers of the class 2 devices are not liable in such a case.
Their items are not permitted to be connected to the earth system of
another.
> The root cause of the problem is of course having someone who thinks they
> can wire a plug but cannot.
** Millions of them around.
Heaps of places sell 3 pin plugs to the public.
> The problem is they might not be the one to
> get killed, it'll be the neighbour's kid or something like that.
** The punishment for mis-wiring a plug ought not be the death of anyone.
>> NOTE:
>>
>> One of the BIGGEST user safety advantages of class 2 construction is
>> that
>> no matter how WRONGLY the AC plug is wired & no matter what is wrong with
>> the AC outlet, you cannot get active onto the earth of the gear.
>
> Thanks, that's the first "class 2 is safer" argument that makes sense to
> me.
> In the context of incompetent and/or amateur electricians, no ELCB, and no
> regular testing of power socket wiring and portable appliance testing, I
> can see that advantage of class 2. Those conditions are probably fairly
> common too.
** The most common cause of electrocution in the home is ( or was until
recently) incorrectly wired plugs and extension leads.
The worst electrocution trap in where BOTH miswired but BOTH work OK unless
the two meet up.
1. The extension lead has active and neutral wires reversed, earth is
wired OK ( most consider this to be harmless).
2. The appliance has earth and neutral wires reversed, active is on the
correct pin ( appliance works fine in normal outlet).
When appliance "2" meets lead " 1" ?????
Death to a toddler.
....... Phil
Phil Allison
"David, not to be confused with the other Davids."
>
>> Is there any rule that stops you earthing these devices, given that the
>> connection via the signal leads to an earthed amp etc would probably
>> do this anyway?
>
> doing so,
** Of course there is !!
A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.
> I read some of the other replies and would also like to add the following.
>
> 1. There is no prohibition on interconection of Class 1 and Class 2
> equipment.
** There is.
A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.
> The only safety related condition is that any earthing required for safety
> of
> the Class 1 device is maintained at the desired level. Which is 1.6 times
> the
> rated current of an inherent protective device (eg. internal fusing).
** You are just making this crazy drivel up.
The earthing requirements for a class 1 appliance relate to the copper cross
section of the earth wire used, ie must not be not less than 1 sq mm. (
AS3100)
> 2. Equipment that was marked "Do Not Earth" was often done so because the
> internal circuitry was "live" and separated from accessible conductive
> parts by
> double/reinforced insulation. Earthing the internal circuitry would be
> potentially hazardous in this case.
** Plenty of class 2 items are labelled "Do Not Earth" where no such thing
existed.
( snip more irrelevant drivel )
> 4. Class 2 construction does not mean double insulation.
** Correct - but the names have become synonyms as far as categorising an
appliance is concerned.
....... Phil
Terry Given
> I might as well add my $0.02 worth here too.
>
> "Russ_Verdon" <verdonsATtpgi.com.au> wrote in message
> news:441d...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
>
>>Hi, I just did a round of "kerbside shopping" and picked up 2x Digitor DVD
>>players from the same place. They both work. The only thing I can think is
>>that they give you a small shock between their chassis and power earth. I
>>can only surmise that the owner thought they were faulty and ditched them as
>>a result. I have picked up another DVD player in similar circunstances,
>>going, but tingling.
>
>
> referred
> to as "touch current" and was previosuly referred to as leakage current. The
> safe
> limit for touch current in Class 2 devices is 0.25 mA and this lies within the
> perception range for some people. Touch current is likely due to the current
> passing
> through small value capacitors connected between the chassis and the primary
> power circuits. This is usually for ESD (electro-static discharge)
> compatibility in
> the case of audio/video equipment.
>
>
>>Is there any rule that stops you earthing these devices, given that the
>>connection via the signal leads to an earthed amp etc would probably
>>do this anyway?
>
>
> unintended earth loop currents to flow through other circuits. This can lead
> to humm and noise, etc.
>
>
>>Do the manufacturers expect all devices to be turned off so that customers
>>don't experience shocks when changing leads around? If chassis earthing
>>elminates this issue, then it would be a nice feature and customer friendly
>>to do so. I guess the amount of copper / star washer etc saved per unit for
>>them outweighs thoughts for the customer.
>>Any comments?
>>
>>Russell
>
>
> By floating the chassis there is no need to use audio baluns or isolating
> transformers in the input and output interconnection stages to remove
> extraneous circulating supply currents or to provide electrical safety.
>
> I read some of the other replies and would also like to add the following.
>
> 1. There is no prohibition on interconection of Class 1 and Class 2 equipment.
> the
> Class 1 device is maintained at the desired level. Which is 1.6 times the
> rated
> current of an inherent protective device (eg. internal fusing).
>
> internal circuitry was "live" and separated from accessible conductive parts by
> double/reinforced insulation. Earthing the internal circuitry would be
> potentially
> hazardous in this case.
>
> supplied to countries that do not have the MEN (TNC-S) mains supply wiring
> scheme. In those countries there is a separate earthing terminal or bonding
> point
> on the equipment chassis, and more often than not, no mains plug is supplied on
> the cord. Equipment that is to be earthed has a plug added, and the chassis
> bonded to
> earth at the time of installation. For floating chassis devices the do not
> earth instruction
> is to specifically draw attention to not to bond to earth.
>
> 3. For small A/V and ITE, making Class 2 equipment costs almost the same as
> Class 1
> equipment.
by "almost" do you mean slightly more or slightly less? I suspect less.
Class 1 is of benefit in high power appliances like toasters,
> ovens, etc.
mostly because the requirements for double- or reinforced-insulation
become difficult, if not impossible.
>
> 4. Class 2 construction does not mean double insulation. Double insulation
> may be a
> type of Class 2 construction but reinforced insulation is now more common.
>
> 5. Someone mentioned triple insulated wire is not common. It is now very
> common,
I was referring to 50/60Hz transformers, although did not specifically
say so. Its the bees knees for smps transformers.
are you aware of any triple-insulated foils?
> being the preferred method to construct very small footprint concentric wound
> transformers in smal SMPSUs. The majority of mobile phone power supplies I
> have examined (say, since 2000) use triple insulated wire as the secondary
> winding.
> This way the static screen and the primary can be conductively coupled, doing
> away
> with the additional layers of insulation that would otherwise be needed.
and it avoids all that creepage, allowing lower leakage designs.
>
> Most of the above can be found in AS/NZS 60065 and/or AS/NZS 60950-1
>
>
Cheers
Terry
Terry Given
> "David, not to be confused with the other Davids."
>
>>>Is there any rule that stops you earthing these devices, given that the
>>>connection via the signal leads to an earthed amp etc would probably
>>>do this anyway?
>>
>>There is no rule in the safety or wiring standards that prevents you from
>>doing so,
>
>
>
> ** Of course there is !!
>
> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.
>
>
>
>
>>I read some of the other replies and would also like to add the following.
>>
>>1. There is no prohibition on interconection of Class 1 and Class 2
>>equipment.
>
>
>
>
> ** There is.
>
> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.
>
the prohibition on earthing class 2 appliances does not relate to
consumers plugging them into class 1 appliances, but to technical
personnel adding 3-pin plugs/wires.
as long as nobody fiddles with the mains connection, one is free to
earth as many inputs/outputs as one wishes.
Of course hooking the jacket of your video out RCA connector to, say,
Phase would be a fairly dangerous thing to do, but then so is poking a
knife into a toaster while its operating.
Phil Allison
"Terry Given"
> the prohibition on earthing class 2 appliances does not relate to
> consumers plugging them into class 1 appliances,
** Yawn .......
A safety risk is created by so doing - possibly a very serious one.
....... Phil
Phil Allison
"David, the pedantic FUCKWIT one.
>
>>
>> > There is no rule in the safety or wiring standards that prevents you
>> > from
>> > doing so,
>>
>>
>> ** Of course there is !!
>>
>> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.
>
>
> using
> it at the moment. Note the use of earthing is not prohibited, just that
> the
> safety strategy of the design must not rely on the protective earth.
** " No reliance " = NO connection to the AC supply earth system.
WAKE UP FUCKHEAD:
AS/NZ standards are for engineers and installers to heed.
The issue here relates to *ordinary consumers* !!!
Consumers are neither aware of nor need to follow published standards.
The law of **negligence** certainly applies to them though.
>> ** You are just making this crazy drivel up.
>>
>> The earthing requirements for a class 1 appliance relate to the copper
>> cross
>> section of the earth wire used, ie must not be not less than 1 sq mm. (
>> AS3100)
>
> 1.0 sq mm for 10A cords up to 2 metres long and 1.5 sq mm for 10A cords
> longer
> than 2 metres.
** Blah, blah, blah - same as I said.
Piss off - you damn IDIOT.
...... Phil
Terry Given
>>are you aware of any triple-insulated foils?
>>
>
>
>
> The mandrel test for flexibility and adherence would pretty much exclude the
> use of other than round cross-sections in order to pass the 6 kV dielectric
> strength test (based on my experience to date, the edge of the foil would
> damage the layer(s) of extruded or spiral wrpped insulation).
>
> Now I have said this, I will probably see one tomorrow :-)
>
> High current devices using foil windings usually have very bulky concentric
> windings, since the insulation layup for each layer is sometimes as thick or
> thicker than the foil. Must be a right bugger to make them to even
> semi-precise tolerances.
Hi David,
I have used pre-fabricated kapton-wrapped foils, with IIRC 25um of
Kapton. These were incompletely wrapped - the insulation came in some
6mm on either side, thereby accomplishing the necessary creepages. I
used TIW for the primary. AIUI the trick with mfg these foils is to
treat the edges.... on a similar note, I built a 120A forward converter
(I forget Vout) for electroplating at Uni, and made the foil myself -
with scissors. I wrapped it with fiberglass tape, and man did the shitty
edges cause me grief. I had no real idea of what I was doing though, and
it took a long time to realise the secondary was shorted, and why. yay
for CMC though; despite being hand built on veroboard, no fires.
good stuff on the standards. There's not much point replying to Phil,
he's wrong and being abusive because you proved it quite conclusively.
Cheers
Terry
Phil Allison
"Terry Given"
= Kiwi ARSEHOLE & MASSIVE BUCKET
" David, the pedantic FUCKWIT one."
> good stuff on the standards.
** Yawn - none of it had ANY relevance at all.
> There's not much point replying to Phil, he's wrong and being abusive
> because you proved it quite conclusively.
** WAKE UP - YOU ASININE FUCKHEADS:
AS/NZ standards are ONLY for engineers, manufacturers and installers to
heed !!
The potential shock hazard issue with class 2 and class items mixed in a
home entertainment system is all about what *ordinary consumers* do - at
home !!
Ordinary consumers are NOT aware of nor need to consider published standards
AT ALL !!
The laws of **negligence** certainly applies to them though.
Shame they does not apply to ANONYMOUS idiots posting dangerous CRAPOLOGY !
........ Phil
Alan Rutlidge
"Terry Given" <my_...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:1143093730.977482@ftpsrv1...
> Phil Allison wrote:
> Of course hooking the jacket of your video out RCA connector to, say,
> Phase would be a fairly dangerous thing to do, but then so is poking a
> knife into a toaster while its operating.
Well, you'd think Toaster Boi would know about that one. :P
Alan Rutlidge
"Phil Allison" <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:48f186F...@individual.net...
>
> "David, the pedantic FUCKWIT one.
Shouldn't that read "David.......... won" ?
Phil lost....
Phil Allison
"Alan Rutlidge" = The Rutmaniac Arse Bandit
See: http://www.advantra.net/contact_us.htm
The Rutmaniac Arse Bandit has **NEVER** told us how much money
that Thai pal he " imported " into Perth ripped off from his credit card
and bank accounts.
He has refused, over and over, to say why he never reported the crime his
Thai boy lover committed to his Bank or to the WA police.
** This post of his on " rec.travel asia " from Oct 11, 1997 explains the
event:
---------------------------------------------------------------
" WARNING - Tourism dangers for Gay Tourists in Thailand
In my case I was coerced into sponsoring a Thai into Australia. I was
lead down the garden path into a false sense of security about my
relationship with this person. His aim was clearly to get me to purswade
the Australian Embassy to grant him a visa. Once here I didn't exist after
he drained my bank account and ran my credit card into overdraft.
Alan Rutlidge (Perth Western Australia) "
----------------------------- ------------------------------------
** The 1997 date pretty much co-incidences with the enactment of
Section 50 BA of the Commonwealth Crimes Act.
This is the law that finally made engaging in or promoting under age
sex tourism a criminal offence - max penalty 17 years in jail.
BTW
The legal age of consent for gay males in WA in 1997 was 21 years old.
Come on - Arse Bandit - we all need to know if you were being
blackmailed.
BTW
I do not care how many of your vile, criminal colleagues you organise
to intimidate me.
It only makes you look so very much WORSE !!!
........ Phil
mdh...@iprimus.com.au
If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
Hi-Fi & HT :-
.........a moderated forum that allows the posting of graphics, circuit
diagrams etc and avoids that flame wars that are destroying so many
newsgroups.
Phil Allison
<mdh...@iprimus.com.au>
** Beware !!!!
The above halfwit is a female impersonator from northern Tasmania
Goes by the handle "Ayn Marx ".
Might as well be Groucho Marx !!!
> If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
> Hi-Fi & HT :-
** ROTFL !!
A very recently set up chat room for fuckwit audiophools, moderated by
control freaks & psychopaths !!
Go for it dudes ......
....... Phil
Phil Allison
Phil Allison
Phil Allison
Rob
"The dark side of the blogosphere was revealed by a libel action brought by
Michael Keith-Smith, a former Conservative party member who stood for Ukip
in Portsmouth North at the last election. He said he was moved to sue after
a woman with whom he was debating the merits of military action in Iraq
began a campaign of name-calling that started by describing him as "lard
brain" and culminated in falsely labelling him a "Nazi", a "racist bigot"
and a "nonce"."
http://technology.guardian.co.uk/news/story/0,,1737444,00.html
Yeah, I know kill-filing fixes most of the problem!
Alan Rutlidge
much you have managed to loose the plot.
Face it, you lost the debate entirely due to your incompetence and pig
headedness, so you feel your only recourse is to try to shift the spotlight
off of your pitifulness in a vain attempt of distraction. Too bad Toaster
Boi - you lost again. :-)
"Phil Allison" <phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:48fdqcF...@individual.net...
Terry Given
> "Terry Given"
>
> = Kiwi ARSEHOLE & MASSIVE BUCKET
>
> " David, the pedantic FUCKWIT one."
>
>
>>good stuff on the standards.
>
>
>
> ** Yawn - none of it had ANY relevance at all.
>
>
>
>
>>There's not much point replying to Phil, he's wrong and being abusive
>>because you proved it quite conclusively.
>
>
>
> ** WAKE UP - YOU ASININE FUCKHEADS:
>
> AS/NZ standards are ONLY for engineers, manufacturers and installers to
> heed !!
gee, here I was thinking its an electronics forum, where people come to
learn/share things about electronics. In which case a good hard look at
the relevant standards is excellent; few if any hobbyists get to see
these things, they are expensive.
>
> The potential shock hazard issue with class 2 and class items mixed in a
> home entertainment system is all about what *ordinary consumers* do - at
> home !!
>
> Ordinary consumers are NOT aware of nor need to consider published standards
> AT ALL !!
>
> The laws of **negligence** certainly applies to them though.
so what. its a moot point from an engineering perspective. These are the
same idiots that drive drunk, rob gas stations without covering their
faces etc, all of which are not just stupid and illegal, but criminal.
>
> Shame they does not apply to ANONYMOUS idiots posting dangerous CRAPOLOGY !
>
>
>
> ........ Phil
Cheers
Terry
Terry Given
you'd think a towering intellect like Phil would realise that this is a
globally distributed public forum, and that anything libelous he writes
is likely to exist, if not forever then at least for a very long time.
eventually he's going to annoy someone who is happy to waste a bit of
money on lawyers
Cheers
Terry
Ray
mdh...@iprimus.com.au says...
>
> If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
> Hi-Fi & HT :-
> ........................a moderated forum that allows the posting of
> graphics, circuit
> diagrams etc and avoids that flame wars that are destroying so many
> newsgroups.
>
>
Hey fuckwit, who's the pot calling the kettle black?
Bloody Audiorasps creating flame wars themselves by starting agro. :(
The Real Andy
I can faintly remember these behavioural traits from primary school
Jasen Betts
>
> "David, not to be confused with the other Davids."
>>
>>> connection via the signal leads to an earthed amp etc would probably
>>> do this anyway?
>>
>> doing so,
>
>
> ** Of course there is !!
>
> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.
And that would be a problem how?
>> I read some of the other replies and would also like to add the following.
>>
>> 1. There is no prohibition on interconection of Class 1 and Class 2
>> equipment.
> ** There is.
>
> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.
says you...
what's the deal with laplink cables ?
and connecting what's that bad thing that going to happen by connecting my
VCR and DVD player to my ancient TV (Phillips K9ii) which has an eathed
antenna connector. and my junk CD player (CD-rom drive in an old apple
external 5.25" enclosure with RCA sockets on the back) (earthed) is connected
to my cheap sterio.
--
Bye.
Jasen
Terry Given
until the advent of usenet, the adult form was most commonly found in
parliament.
Cheers
Terry
mdh...@iprimus.com.au
Starting agro ? ? ? You'd know it if I did.
Phil Allison
"Jasen Betts" = just another anencephalic Kiwi
>> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.
>
> And that would be a problem how?
** Read the whole thread - FUCKWIT !
>> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.
>
> says you...
** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.
" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliance built in accordance
with these principles must not be earthed."
It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.
> and connecting what's that bad thing that going to happen by connecting my
> VCR and DVD player to my ancient TV (Phillips K9ii) which has an eathed
> antenna connector.
** If you actually ever learn to read one day, Jasen, it will be a
miracle.
" Earthed" = " mains earthed" = connected to the AC ground via a standard
3 pin plug and 3 pin outlet.
....... Phil
Phil Allison
"Terry Given"
>
>> = Kiwi ARSEHOLE & MASSIVE FUCKWIT
>
>>
>> ** WAKE UP - YOU ASININE FUCKHEADS:
>>
>> AS/NZ standards are ONLY for engineers, manufacturers and installers to
>> heed !!
>
> gee, here I was thinking
** No sign of that in your posts - ever.
>> The potential shock hazard issue with class 2 and class items mixed in a
>> home entertainment system is all about what *ordinary consumers* do -
>> at home !!
>>
>> Ordinary consumers are NOT aware of nor need to consider published
>> standards AT ALL !!
>>
>> The laws of **negligence** certainly applies to them though.
>
> so what.
** Bad idea for them to do anything that is dangerous to others or for
anyone to encourage them to do it.
> its a moot point from an engineering perspective. These are the same
> idiots that drive drunk, rob gas stations without covering their faces
> etc, all of which are not just stupid and illegal, but criminal.
** That is just about the most asinine thing I have seen on this NG.
Terry Given = a rabid, psychotic, bloody lunatic.
I feel sorry for all those poor sheep.
......... Phil
Phil Allison
"David, the TOTAL IDIOT "
>> ** WAKE UP - YOU ASININE FUCKHEADS:
>>
>> AS/NZ standards are ONLY for engineers, manufacturers and installers to
>> heed !!
>> Ordinary consumers are NOT aware of nor need to consider published
>> standards
>> AT ALL !!
>>
>> The laws of **negligence** certainly applies to them though.
>>
>> Shame they does not apply to ANONYMOUS idiots posting
>> dangerous CRAPOLOGY !
>
> I believe it does.
** The "anonymous" bit would be a problem - FUCKWIT !!
> Negligence has to be proven. Way too complicated for this discussion.
** It is the whole basis of the matter - you ASS.
>> The potential shock hazard issue with class 2 and class items mixed in a
>> home entertainment system is all about what *ordinary consumers* do -
>> at
>> home !!
>
> I am going to wind this back to the OPs point about earthing the
> enclosure,
** Wrong issue.
That is another matter.
........ Phil
Malcolm Moore
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Jasen Betts" = just another anencephalic Kiwi
>
snip
>>> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.
>>
>> says you...
>
>
>** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.
>
>" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliance built in accordance
>with these principles must not be earthed."
>
>It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.
In a reply to my post just yesterday you stated
---------------------------------
** The warning notice is not compulsory.
"Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double
Insulated" are. "
---------------------------------
AS/NZS 3100 is not the applicable standard for domestic entertainment
equipment. It is used for equipment that does not have a specific
standard.
AS/NZS 60065:2000
Audio, video and similar electronic
apparatus-Safety requirements
(IEC 60065:1998 MOD)
is the appropriate standard for this discussion.
snip
--
Regards
Malcolm
Remove sharp objects to get a valid e-mail address
Phil Allison
"Malcolm Moore"
>>>> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.
>>>
>>> says you...
>>
>>
>>** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.
>>
>>" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliances built in accordance
>>with these principles must not be earthed."
>>
>>It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.
>
>
> In a reply to my post just yesterday you stated
>
> ---------------------------------
> ** The warning notice is not compulsory.
> "Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double
> Insulated" are. "
> ---------------------------------
** So ?
You made NO reply to the other answers I so thoughtfully gave you.
Class 2 construction appliances are inherently much safer than class 1
types.
What users do that COMPROMISES that additional safety is beyond the control
of makers or authorities.
The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
earth a class 2 item .
In some cases, doing that would be equivalent to murder.
........ Phil
The Real Andy
wrote:
>Jasen Betts <ja...@free.net.nz> wrote in
>news:7df9.4422...@clunker.homenet:
>> what's the deal with laplink cables ?
>
> If the connector shells at each end are connected together, they
>can connect the frame earth of the two devices. Not always a good
>thing.
But, if the device is double insulated, then wont the exposed frames
be doubly isolated from the mains earth? IS this not why you get the
tingle? the whole frame is floating about mains earth because it is
not connected to mains earth.
Or perhaps I am wrong. Perhaps there is a secret earth connection to
double insultated gear that the manufacturers just accidently forgot
to tell people about. Perhaps the manufacturers decided to make you
mains earth magically float up. Or perhpas they just built in some
electric shocking mechanism for fun.
I remember daealing with a sparky when i was a 1st year apprentice. He
just couldn't figure out why, that if i was not connected to mains
earth or to neutral i could touch active and not get electrocuted. I
even gave him personal proof once. I then got a multimeter and put one
probe in active, and the other in the air, and asked him why it did
not give any significant reading, until i stuck the other probe in
neutral or earth. He still did not get it.
It all stemmed from the discussion of the use of isolation
transformers..
>G
The Real Andy
wrote:
more frequently in mental institutions.
>
>Cheers
>Terry
Jasen Betts
>> If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
>> Hi-Fi & HT :-
>
> ** ROTFL !!
>
> A very recently set up chat room for fuckwit audiophools, moderated by
> control freaks & psychopaths !!
Tranlation: Philthy isn't allowed in.
Bye.
Jasen
Phil Allison
"Jasen Bleats" = Kiwi sheep fucker
** Even NZ sheep wont let this PITC in.
........ Phil
Jasen Betts
>
> "Jasen Betts" = just another anencephalic Kiwi
>
>>> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.
>>
>> And that would be a problem how?
>
> ** Read the whole thread - FUCKWIT !
you explained how connecting a class two appliance to a live conductor could
be dangerous, I didn't see any explanation of how earthing the appliance was
bad. (except earth loops)
>>> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.
>>
>> says you...
>
> ** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.
>
> " It will be apparent that double-insulated appliance built in accordance
> with these principles must not be earthed."
that seems odd, perhaps because it's taken out of context.
> It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.
it must be wrong then... I see many devices with the double squares but no
"do not earth"
>> and connecting what's that bad thing that going to happen by connecting my
>> VCR and DVD player to my ancient TV (Phillips K9ii) which has an eathed
>> antenna connector.
>
> ** If you actually ever learn to read one day, Jasen, it will be a
> miracle.
>
> " Earthed" = " mains earthed" = connected to the AC ground via a standard
> 3 pin plug and 3 pin outlet.
I know how to read an ohmmeter and it tells me the outer conductor of the
anterena socket is conneted to the earth pin on the mains lead.
If you don't believe me you can come over here aand measure it or dig up a
schematic somewhere, the K9 was once quite common.
Bye.
Jasen
Rob
"Terry Given" <my_...@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:1143124458.155750@ftpsrv1...
Hey - perhaps lawyers aren't so bad after all!
Phil Allison
"Jasen Bleats"
= just another anencephalic sheep FUCKING Kiwi MORON
>> ** Read the whole thread - FUCKWIT !
>
> you explained how connecting a class two appliance to a live conductor
> could
> be dangerous,
** Find those words from me and post them.
Or go back to rooting pregnant sheep.
>> It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is
>> compulsory.
>
> it must be wrong then..
** No.
........ Phil
Chris Jones
>
> "Chris Jones"
>>
> >
>>> ** Do you constantly move the goalposts at sporting events too ?
>>>
>>
>> I don't consider posting to usenet to be a competition,
>
>
> ** Then why keep moving the goal posts like is is one you cannot bear to
> loose ??
When I change the topic, it has not been with the intention of winning or
avoiding "loosing" (or even losing) an argument. I don't like being wrong
but the only way around that is to learn more. If I think I have nothing
to add on a particular topic then I don't write anything about it. If it
leads me to think about a different topic that interests me then I will ask
or comment about that. You have posted some thought-provoking replies and
I thank you for that. I know more than I used to about a couple of things.
>> I just like to learn stuff.
>
>
> ** If you mean that, then why make it impossible for anyone to answer you
> ?
>
I think you have managed ok.
Malcolm Moore
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Malcolm Moore"
> "Phil Allison"
>
>>>
>>>** Have you never seen the words " Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " on
>>>the back of a class 2 item ??
>>>
>>> Pretty clear isn't it?
>>
>> I've just checked all the double insulated items in my home and NONE
>> of them carry a warning such as you describe.
>
>
>** The warning notice is not compulsory.
>
>Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double Insulated"
>are.
>
>
>>The matter is very much an *X rated topic * in the home entertainment
>>>electronics industry.
>>
>> So where does the "PROHIBITION" come from?
>
>
>** The fact that a class 2 appliance must not be earthed.
>
>
>> Previously you said such interconnection was prohibited, now you're
>> saying to ignore the issue??
>
>
>** Huh ???
>
> What madman's logic is this ?
>
> What the hell do you think "X -rated " means ???
Fair comment. You have chosen to delete part of your previous post to
which I was replying. I'll put it back in.
>Equipment makers are not liable for what users may WRONGLY do when
>interconnecting items of gear - so just ignore the issue.
>
>
>
>The matter is very much an *X rated topic * in the home entertainment
>electronics industry.
Your use of a hyphen before "so just ignore the issue." led me to
believe that was your view. On reading it again I realise you were
attributing that to the manufacturers. That sentence would have been
clearer with a comma or even no punctuation there.
My apologies for misunderstanding.
>>>** Imagine a hi-fi system with every item in it class 2 - so there is no
>>>AC
>>>ground to the metalwork.
>>>
>>>Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just
>>>bought
>>>from Ebay but with no AC plug.
>>>
>>>Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active and
>>>earth reversed and makes all the connections.
>>>
>>>The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
>>>with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
>>>LIVE !!!
>>>
>>>In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
>>>!!!!
>>
>>
>> If this danger was significant then the use of Class 2 equipment is
>> inherently unsafe because it would be relying on user action to make
>> it safe, the user action being to not interconnect with other commonly
>> available items.
>
>
>** Absolute drivel.
>
>Class 2 construction appliances are inherently much safer than class 1
>types.
>
>What users do that COMPROMISES that additional safety is beyond the control
>of makers or authorities.
>
>>As you say above, "Equipment makers are not liable
>> for what users may WRONGLY do.....", but regulators are always
>> interested in such things. They seem relaxed about the situation.
>
>
>** SFA they can do about it.
Which is exactly why there is no prohibition on interconnecting
earthed and double insulated home entertainment equipment.
>The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
>earth a class 2 item.
As in my other post, the legal liability arises from miswiring a plug,
not from interconecting different classes of equipment.
Malcolm Moore
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>
>"Malcolm Moore"
>
>>>>> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed.
>>>>
>>>> says you...
>>>
>>>
>>>** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.
>>>
>>>" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliances built in accordance
>>>with these principles must not be earthed."
>>>
>>>It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is compulsory.
>>
>>
>> In a reply to my post just yesterday you stated
>>
>> ---------------------------------
>> ** The warning notice is not compulsory.
>> "Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double
>> Insulated" are. "
>> ---------------------------------
>
>
>** So ?
So you have contradicted yourself in quoting from the Standard you are
relying upon. Hardly the tactic to use to convince people of your
position on this matter.
Your use of the title AS 3100 perhaps indicates you are relying on an
old version, it has been AS/NZS 3100 since at least 2002 when the
ccurrent version was promulgated.
>You made NO reply to the other answers I so thoughtfully gave you.
I have rectified this in another post.
>Class 2 construction appliances are inherently much safer than class 1
>types.
>
>What users do that COMPROMISES that additional safety is beyond the control
>of makers or authorities.
>
>The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
>earth a class 2 item .
No. The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who
elects to miswire the plug on a Class 1 item, with phase and earth
swapped, and then doesn't do required testing before it is placed in
service. The equipment would be just as dangerous if it were used
stand alone.
>In some cases, doing that would be equivalent to murder.
In most jurisdictions that would be manslaughter or culpable homicide
or similar. Still a serious charge.
Jasen Betts
> On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:23:25 GMT, GB <g...@sonicresearch.mailme.org>
> wrote:
>
>>Jasen Betts <ja...@free.net.nz> wrote in
>>news:7df9.4422...@clunker.homenet:
>>> what's the deal with laplink cables ?
>>
>> If the connector shells at each end are connected together, they
>>can connect the frame earth of the two devices. Not always a good
>>thing.
>
> But, if the device is double insulated, then wont the exposed frames
> be doubly isolated from the mains earth? IS this not why you get the
> tingle? the whole frame is floating about mains earth because it is
> not connected to mains earth.
To be honest, I hadn't considered the possibility that the serial port might
be isolated from the circuitry inside the laptop.
this one isn't.
Bye.
Jasen
Chris Jones
>> >
>> > There is no rule in the safety or wiring standards that prevents you
>> > from doing so,
>>
>>
>> ** Of course there is !!
>>
>> A Class 2 appliance must not be earthed or it ceases to be one.
>
> You are correct for a transformer based power supply device such as a
> plug-pack, but this is not necessarily the case for other products. The
> deliniation between Class 1 and Class 2 is becoming very grey. Whereas
> AS3108 and AS/NZS61558-1 say any transformer that has an earth terminal
> must be classified as Class 1 other standards do not.
>
> Definition and references below from AS/NZS60950-1, since I happen to be
> using it at the moment. Note the use of earthing is not prohibited, just
> that the
> safety strategy of the design must not rely on the protective earth. This
> standard might/is be used for a switch mode PSU plug-pack.
>
> =====
> "COPYRIGHT"
> 1.2.4.2 CLASS II EQUIPMENT: Equipment in which protection against electric
> shock does not
> rely on BASIC INSULATION only,but in which additional safety
> precautions,such as DOUBLE
> INSULATION or REINFORCED INSULATION are provided,there being no reliance
> on protective
> earthing.
> =====
>
> There have been many changes since the old AS3108 and AS3100 type
> standards
> existed as the sole point of reference. None of those standards took into
> account EMC filtering or stray currents due to SMPSU, etc. With the more
> modern standards you can certainly use Class 2 construction, with
> functional
> (not protective) earthing. Note, connecting an earth does not
> automatically make it Class 1 in this standard.
>
> If you want to split hairs on the issue over the Class 2 box-in-box
> marking,
> perhaps I should of said before to scatch off the symbol. It is then
> functionally earthed Class 2 construction. It can only be truly Class 1
> if the
> earthing is protective. There is no marking to define these products
> (yet). The mis-wiring of plugs etc is not a factor taken into
> consideration.
>
> Here is a reference from the same standard:
>
> ======
> "COPYRIGHT"
> 2.6.2 Functional earthing
> If FUNCTIONAL EARTHING of accessible or other conductive parts is
> necessary,all of the
> following apply to the FUNCTIONAL EARTHING circuit:
> - the FUNCTIONAL EARTHING circuit shall be separated from parts at
> HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES
> in the equipment by either:
> .DOUBLE INSULATION or REINFORCED INSULATION or
> . a protectively earthed screen or another protectively earthed conductive
> part,
> separated from parts at HAZARDOUS VOLTAGES by at least BASIC INSULATION
> and - it is permitted to connect the FUNCTIONAL EARTHING circuit to a
> protective earth terminal
> or to a PROTECTIVE BONDING CONDUCTOR and
>
> <snip a lot of stuff that isn't relevant to the argument>
> =====================
>
>> > The only safety related condition is that any earthing required for
>> > safety of
>> > the Class 1 device is maintained at the desired level. Which is 1.6
>> > times the
>> > rated current of an inherent protective device (eg. internal fusing).
>>
>>
>> ** You are just making this crazy drivel up.
>>
>> The earthing requirements for a class 1 appliance relate to the copper
>> cross
>> section of the earth wire used, ie must not be not less than 1 sq mm. (
>> AS3100)
>
> 1.0 sq mm for 10A cords up to 2 metres long and 1.5 sq mm for 10A cords
> longer than 2 metres.
>
> I did make a mistake with the multiplication factor, it is 1.5 and not 1.6
> times. I am not making it up - sometimes I think it would be easier to
> understand if I did. For functional earthing there is no size requirement
> other than that needed for it to do the intended job. For protective
> earthing and bonding you can provide the minimum conductor sizes in the
> standard (1.0 or 1.5 sq mm), or use the minimum size conductor that meets
> the following:
>
> ==============
> "COPYRIGHT"
> 2.6.3.3 Size of protective bonding conductors
> PROTECTIVE BONDING CONDUCTORS shall comply with one of the following:
> - the minimum conductor sizes in table 3B (see 3.2.5);or
> - the requirements of 2.6.3.4 and also,if the current rating of the
> circuit is more than
> 16 A,with the minimum conductor sizes in table 2D;or
> -for components only,be not smaller than the conductors supplying power to
> the component.
> The current rating of the circuit used in table 2D and in the test of
> 2.6.3.4 depends on the
> provision and location of overcurrent protective devices and shall be
> taken as the smaller of
> a)or b)as follows.
> a)The rating of an overcurrent protective device specified in the
> equipment installation
> instructions to be installed in the building installation wiring to
> protect the equipment.?47
> b)The rating of an overcurrent protective device in the equipment that
> protects the circuit
> or part required to be earthed.
> For PLUGGABLE EQUIPMENT TYPE A and if neither a)nor b)is applicable,the
> current rating of
> the circuit shall be taken as the RATED CURRENT of the equipment or 16
> A,whichever is
> greater.
> =================
>
> So (b) takes into account the rating of protective device that protects
> the
> circuit or part that needs to be protectively earthed. If a part that
> could fail to earth is protected by a 1A fuse then the protective
> conducter is sized to pass the following test, otherwise a great many PCB
> tracks that carry earth within a small SMPSU would be disallowed.
>
> If a series connected mains socket or device is protected by a (say) 5A
> fuse the intermediate bonding conductors to the equipment mounted socket
> outlet
> could be reduced in size accordingly. Fifteen years ago you couldn't do
> this, but you can now.
>
> This is the test for bonding conductors.
> =================
> The test current,duration of the test and test results are as follows:
> - if the current rating of the circuit under test is 16 A or less, the
> test current is 1,5 times the
> current rating of the circuit under test, the current is applied for 60 s
> and the resistance of
> the PROTECTIVE BONDING CONDUCTOR , calculated from the voltage drop,shall
> not exceed
> 0,1 ?;
> =================
>
> There are many cases where AS3100 or AS3108 say a specific thing cannot be
> done but a more modern product specific standard may allow it, and
> AS/NZS3000 is no longer a prescriptive standard with regard to anything on
> the equipment side of the supply interface.
>
> The damn standards change so often it costs us thousands of dollars a year
> to keep up to date.
Thanks, that was quite interesting. Thanks also to the other posters,
I wish that standards like these which have to all intents and purposes
become legally binding, were automatically placed in the public domain.
Imagine if all laws were as difficult to access - the public would not
tolerate that.
Chris
Franc Zabkar
finger to keyboard and composed:
>eventually he's going to annoy someone who is happy to waste a bit of
>money on lawyers
Since when does a lawyer do anything for a "bit" of money?
Just to put things in perspective, consider that the trial of Slobodan
Milosevic, the Balkan butcher, had been going for more than 4 years at
a cost to taxpayers of several hundreds of millions of dollars before
he put a merciful end to the legal gravy train by topping himself. In
that same amount of time the world managed to start and finish a World
War, and I completed an engineering degree.
- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.
Phil Allison
"Chris Jones"
>
>
>>> I just like to learn stuff.
>>
>>
>> ** If you mean that, then why make it impossible for anyone to answer
>> you
>> ?
>>
> I think you have managed ok.
** Making a task unnecessarily difficult for someone else is the act of
complete asshole.
Bing smug about it is even worse.
........ Phil
Phil Allison
"Malcolm Moore"
>
>>>As you say above, "Equipment makers are not liable
>>> for what users may WRONGLY do.....", but regulators are always
>>> interested in such things. They seem relaxed about the situation.
>>
>>
>>** SFA they can do about it.
>
> Which is exactly why there is no prohibition on interconnecting
> earthed and double insulated home entertainment equipment.
** That does not make even the slightest sense.
A complete non sequitur.
>>The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
>>earth a class 2 item.
>
>
> As in my other post, the legal liability arises from miswiring a plug,
** Many other ways for the same outcome to occur.
Class 1 items rely on the earth wire to prevent shock in case of internal
failures.
> not from interconecting different classes of equipment.
** One seriously compromises the safety of a class 2 item by connecting its
metal case to a class 1 item.
Same as "de-earthing" a class 1 item *seriously* compromises its safety in
the event of some internal failure.
Go figure out why class 2 was ever invented.
......... Phil
Phil Allison
"Chris Jones"
>
> Thanks, that was quite interesting.
** It was a whole load of irrelevant shit.
> I wish that standards like these which have to all intents and purposes
> become legally binding,
** Only binding on industry and even then only in a few cases.
> were automatically placed in the public domain.
** Very bad idea.
> Imagine if all laws were as difficult to access -
** Until the internet arrived laws ( ie legislation) WAS difficult to
access .
The public tolerated it just fine for centuries.
Even now, only a tiny few( other than law students & lawyers) ever bother to
access the info.
Most of it is FAR to complicated and confusing to the novice.
........ Phil
Phil Allison
"Malcolm Moore" = another Kiwi half-wit
>>
>>>>** My copy of AS 3100 says so as well.
>>>>
>>>>" It will be apparent that double-insulated appliances built in
>>>>accordance
>>>>with these principles must not be earthed."
>>>>
>>>>It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is
>>>>compulsory.
>>>
>>>
>>> In a reply to my post just yesterday you stated
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> ** The warning notice is not compulsory.
>>> "Only the use of the "double square" symbol or the words "Double
>>> Insulated" are. "
>>> ---------------------------------
>>
>>
>>** So ?
>
> So you have contradicted yourself .....
** No I have not !
The warning "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " is not on many class 2 items
*these days*.
The Asian makers of DVD players and the like do NOT have to follow
Australian standards.
These items are NOT on the "prescribed" items list so require no formal
type approval.
> Your use of the title AS 3100 perhaps indicates you are relying on an
> old version,
** The safety issues involved have not changed.
Class 2 items are very safe largely BECAUSE they are NOT earthed.
>>Class 2 construction appliances are inherently much safer than class 1
>>types.
>>
>>What users do that COMPROMISES that additional safety is beyond the
>>control
>>of makers or authorities.
>>
>>The issue is one of legal liability on the part of someone who elects to
>>earth a class 2 item .
>
> No.
** The liability automatically exists - you bullshitting fool.
>>In some cases, doing that would be equivalent to murder.
>
>
> In most jurisdictions that would be manslaughter or culpable homicide
> or similar. Still a serious charge.
** You missed the point entirely.
But at least you agree that earthing a class 2 item can be a very serious
matter since the possible outcome is a person's death.
The WHOLE idea behind class 2 construction was to eliminate FIRST the need
for and HENCE the electric shock HAZARD presented by having an earth wire
on a plug in appliance.
......... Phil
Jasen Betts
>>> ** Read the whole thread
>>
>> you explained how connecting a class two appliance to a live conductor
>> could be dangerous,
>
> ** Find those words from me and post them.
} Message-ID: <48bnusF...@individual.net>
} From: "Phil Allison" <phila...@tpg.com.au>
} Newsgroups: aus.electronics
} Subject: Re: Tingles from DVD players
} Date: Wed, 22 Mar 2006 12:35:28 +1100
...
} ** Imagine a hi-fi system with every item in it class 2 - so there is no AC
} ground to the metalwork.
}
} Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just bought
} from Ebay but with no AC plug.
}
} Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active and
} earth reversed and makes all the connections.
}
} The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
} with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
} LIVE !!!
}
} In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
} !!!!
There you go "class two appliance connected to a live conductor"
(an incorrectly wired class one appliance) are you going to argue that
the connectors on it aren't live conductors?
>>> It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is
>>> compulsory.
>>
>> it must be wrong then..
>
> ** No.
>
In that case there's an awful lot of non-compliant equipment out there.
Bye.
Jasen
Jasen Betts
>
> If anyone wants to avoid all the agro here you're welcome over on Oz
>
> .........a moderated forum that allows the posting of graphics, circuit
>
> diagrams etc and avoids that flame wars that are destroying so many
> newsgroups.
Is it available via nntp?
Bye.
Jasen
Phil Allison
"Jasen Bleatts" = Kiwi anencephalic
>
>>>> ** Read the whole thread
>>>
>>> you explained how connecting a class two appliance to a live conductor
>>> could be dangerous,
>>
>> ** Find those words from me and post them.
>
>
> no AC
> } ground to the metalwork.
> }
> } Next, an item is added to the system, ie a nice old valve tuner just
> bought
> } from Ebay but with no AC plug.
> }
> } Next, the user inadvertently wires up the new plug wrongly with active
> and
> } earth reversed and makes all the connections.
> }
> } The hi-fi system will still work just as before ( but not the tuner) but
> } with ALL the metalwork, connecting leads and even the loud speakers now
> } LIVE !!!
> }
> } In countries with 240 volt AC power, this is a FATAL accident scenario
> } !!!!
>
>
> There you go "class two appliance connected to a live conductor"
> (an incorrectly wired class one appliance) are you going to argue that
> the connectors on it aren't live conductors?
** What an illiterate IDIOT you are - Jasen !!
The user in MY EXAMPLE connected the various, ground linked class 2
appliances in his audio system to the metalwork of a class 1 item by simply
*plugging the audio and leads in* - thereby connecting the previously non
earthed class 2 system to the " supply earth".
The defective wiring of a *single class 1 item* ( it does not matter a
HOOT how it got that way) then rendered an entire system live and LETHAL.
>>>> It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is
>>>> compulsory.
>>>
>>> it must be wrong then..
>>
>> ** No.
>>
>
> In that case there's an awful lot of non-compliant equipment out there.
** Your raving mad opinion - not mine.
....... Phil
mdh...@iprimus.com.au
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/internet-slanging-match-ends-up-in-high-court/2006/03/23/1143083906475.html
Internet slanging match ends up in High Court
A political argument that erupted in a remote corner of cyberspace and
descended into vicious name-calling could lead to a spate of libel
actions by contributors to internet message boards.
The dark side of the blogosphere was revealed by a libel action brought
by Michael Keith-Smith, a former Conservative Party member who stood
for the United Kingdom Independence Party in Portsmouth North, on the
south coast of England, at the last election.
He said he was moved to sue after a woman with whom he was debating the
merits of military action in Iraq began a campaign of name-calling that
started by describing him as "lard brain" and culminated in labelling
him a "Nazi", a "racist bigot" and a "nonce".
Judge Alistair MacDuff in the High Court ordered Tracy Williams, a
college lecturer from Oldham, in north-west England, to pay £10,000
($24,000) in damages, plus Mr Keith-Smith's £7200 costs, and told
never to repeat the allegations.
The case is one of the first of its kind between two private
individuals to go to court, said lawyers. It highlighted issues that
would become more prominent as internet use continued to grow and
blogging, social networking and community sites became yet more
popular, they said.
Mr Keith-Smith said he took action after a debate about the Iraq war in
2003 on a Yahoo! message board with about 100 members turned ugly.
"She was very pro-[US President George] Bush. Initially, she called me
lard brain and I wasn't particularly concerned about that. Then she
called me a Nazi," he said.
He has also taken action against a second poster, he said, with whom he
claimed to have settled for a sum "in the region of £30,000".
"They started saying I was on a sex offenders' list and that people
shouldn't let me near their children," said Mr Keith-Smith, who is also
chairman of the Conservative Democratic Alliance, which bills itself as
"the leading voice of the radical Tory right".
Legal experts said the case should be taken as a warning to the
millions of people debating contentious issues on message boards, in
chatrooms and on their own blogs.
The Guardian
TT
<mdh...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:1143262824....@z34g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
The Guardian
Oh how all of this sounds sooooo familiar ;-) I wonder if
this judge could be tempted to take a working holiday to Oz?
;-)
Cheers TT
Jasen Betts
>>
>> There you go "class two appliance connected to a live conductor"
>> (an incorrectly wired class one appliance) are you going to argue that
>> the connectors on it aren't live conductors?
>
> ** What an illiterate IDIOT you are - Jasen !!
>
> The user in MY EXAMPLE connected the various, ground linked class 2
> appliances in his audio system to the metalwork of a class 1 item by simply
> *plugging the audio and leads in* - thereby connecting the previously non
> earthed class 2 system to the " supply earth".
He was connecting them to a live conductor. he may have considered it to be
"supply earth" but it wasn't.
> The defective wiring of a *single class 1 item* ( it does not matter a
> HOOT how it got that way) then rendered an entire system live and LETHAL.
Is that not an example of it being bad to connect the inputs of a Class 2
device to a live conductor. ?
the faulty device would be potentially lethal without conductive connections
to other equipment.
if there were two class one items in the setup the fault would have been
detected.
>>>>> It also says the "Double Insulated - Do Not Earth " warning is
>>>>> compulsory.
>>>>
>>>> it must be wrong then..
>>>
>>> ** No.
>>
>> In that case there's an awful lot of non-compliant equipment out there.
>
> ** Your raving mad opinion - not mine.
are you saying that something compulsory isn't required for compliance?
or that for some reason all the other posters who've posted on this subject
have an atypical collection of class 2 devices in that practically none of
the bear the legend "do not earth"
Bye.
Jasen
Phil Allison
"Jasen Bleatts"
= New Zealand's very Worst.
> He was connecting them to a live conductor.
** By accident - F U C K W I T !!!!!!
>>> In that case there's an awful lot of non-compliant equipment out there.
>>
>> ** Your raving mad opinion - not mine.
>
> are you saying ...
** I am not saying what I did not say.
Go away - Jasen.
Eat a packet of rat poison - Jasen.
Eat two.
........ Phil
The Real Andy
wrote:
Read what i stated.
>
>this one isn't.
SO are you suggesting that your laptop connects the serial port to
mains earth?
>
>Bye.
> Jasen
Phil Allison
"The Real Andy"
" Jasen Bleatts"
> Read what i stated.
>
> SO are you suggesting that your laptop connects the serial port to
> mains earth?
** Watch out - Andy.
Jasen thinks a glass of sheep dip is a aphrodisiac.
...... Phil
Jasen Betts
> On Fri, 24 Mar 2006 21:11:05 -0000, Jasen Betts <ja...@free.net.nz>
> wrote:
>
>>On 2006-03-24, The Real Andy <will_get_back_to_you_on_This@> wrote:
>>> On Thu, 23 Mar 2006 23:23:25 GMT, GB <g...@sonicresearch.mailme.org>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Jasen Betts <ja...@free.net.nz> wrote in
>>>>news:7df9.4422...@clunker.homenet:
>>>>> what's the deal with laplink cables ?
>>>>
>>>> If the connector shells at each end are connected together, they
>>>>can connect the frame earth of the two devices. Not always a good
>>>>thing.
>>> But, if the device is double insulated, then wont the exposed frames
>>> be doubly isolated from the mains earth? IS this not why you get the
>>> tingle? the whole frame is floating about mains earth because it is
>>> not connected to mains earth.
>>
>>To be honest, I hadn't considered the possibility that the serial port might
>>be isolated from the circuitry inside the laptop.
>
> Read what i stated.
typically it will, but there's no requirement.
>>this one isn't.
> SO are you suggesting that your laptop connects the serial port to
> mains earth?
(I meant this one isn't isolated from the rest of the laptop)
this one connects it to the chassis, and the laplink cable connects
it to the pc which is earthed.
Bye.
Jasen
The Real Andy
It is a lost cause, some get it, some dont.
>
>
>
>
>...... Phil
>
Malcolm Moore
<lugn...@nospam.yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Thanks, that was quite interesting. Thanks also to the other posters,
>
>I wish that standards like these which have to all intents and purposes
>become legally binding, were automatically placed in the public domain.
>Imagine if all laws were as difficult to access - the public would not
>tolerate that.
>Chris
I agree.
An advantage of Electrical Registration in NZ is that the Electrical
Workers Registration Board supply free of charge paper copies of the
Electricity Regulations, AS/NZS 3000, AS/NZS 3760, and pdfs on a cd of
9 others to registered workers.
Last year they announced an agreement with Standards NZ to give online
access for registered workers to all standards referenced in AS/NZS
3000. Unfortunately that hasn't yet occured because there are problems
between the two organisations websites.
Phil Allison
"Malcolm Moore"
Chris Jones
>>
>>I wish that standards like these which have to all intents and purposes
>>become legally binding, were automatically placed in the public domain.
>>Imagine if all laws were as difficult to access - the public would not
>>tolerate that.
>
** LOL
Same way sheep agree !!
> An advantage of Electrical Registration in NZ is that the Electrical
> Workers Registration Board supply free of charge paper copies of the
> Electricity Regulations, AS/NZS 3000, AS/NZS 3760, and pdfs on a cd of
> 9 others to registered workers.
** AS/NZS 3000 = Electrical installations (known as the Australian/New
Zealand Wiring Rules)
AS/NZS 3760 = In-service safety inspection and testing of electrical
equipment.
A complete fool ( like this Malcolm cretin for example) can read the above
cover to cover as many times as he likes and still wind up not having a
DAMN CLUE about real world electrical safety.
Baaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhh.....
........ Phil
The Real Andy
<phila...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
<snipped insults>
One think i found when getting gear approved in QLD is that the
inspector was less aware of the Standards than I was. What is even
worse is that he granted an approval on a product that was quite
clearly not compliant. I can handle this for a small time production
that will never face the public, but the device in question I can
guarantee that a significant amount of QLD/VIC public have been
exposed too. Fortunately the 'Approved product' was fixed before
shipping.
I find it obscure that EMC compliance is more difficult and expensive
than electrical compliance. Go figure..
>
>
>
>
>........ Phil
>
>
>
>
>