Bloody digital!
Superman
'King Arthur' on channel 7 is unwatchable! It's constantly pixilating,
although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength is 10! (full
scale) BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
--
rgds,
Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com
"We stopped the boats coming. The facts speak for themselves. People knew where we stood. We didn't try to be all things to all men. Look, our policy worked. There was no need to alter it" - John Howard
"Our journalists are finally noticing the elephant in the room. Rudd has given us grocery watch, fuel watch, a national dept our children will still be paying, an ETS scheme that will further bankrupt the nation without making an iota of difference to global warming. Rudd is all spin and no substance. Even worse, he expects to fool all people all the time." - media comment
"I don't care what you f__kers think!" - The Hon Kevin Rudd MP, Prime Minister of Australia
atec 7 7
>
> 'King Arthur' on channel 7 is unwatchable! It's constantly pixilating,
> although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength is 10! (full
> scale) BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
>
David Barnett
news:3nm%m.66150$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> 'King Arthur' on channel 7 is unwatchable! It's constantly pixilating,
> although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength is 10! (full scale)
> BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
I did not watch this movie as I had already seen it on a DVD disc supplied
by my daughter.
I found the movie rather boring.
--
David Barnett
David L. Jones
> 'King Arthur' on channel 7 is unwatchable! It's constantly pixilating,
> although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength is 10! (full
> scale) BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
Too much compression. They can vary the compression at their end to whatever
they want.
The standard def channels like 7 can really suck. Try watching fast moving
sport action on a standard def channel and you'll see it all the time.
The HD channels are much better and will rarely have this problem. So the
rule is to watch the HD version of the channel (70)unless they are
annoyingly displaying a different show on the HD channel. Even if you don't
have a HD capable TV, it's worth getting a HD box just for this.
It's nothing to do with signal strength, digital TV either works or it
doesn't. If the signal strength is too low to image will freeze, not
pixelate.
Dave.
--
---------------------------------------------
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast:
http://www.eevblog.com
Superman
I gave up watching it!
Superman
> Superman"<"the _man_of_steel wrote:
>
>> 'King Arthur' on channel 7 is unwatchable! It's constantly pixilating,
>> although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength is 10! (full
>> scale) BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
>>
> Too much compression. They can vary the compression at their end to whatever
> they want.
> The standard def channels like 7 can really suck. Try watching fast moving
> sport action on a standard def channel and you'll see it all the time.
>
Are you talking about artefacts? yes, it's pathetic. we have these hi
res panels and have to watch stuff that looks like it's come off youtube!
> The HD channels are much better and will rarely have this problem. So the
> rule is to watch the HD version of the channel (70)unless they are
> annoyingly displaying a different show on the HD channel.
I was watching on 70. sorry, I didn't mention that. It was just
hopeless. but there was a storm and lightning last night. perhaps that
was a major cause. but I don't know how we are expected to watch
transmission like this.
> Even if you don't
> have a HD capable TV, it's worth getting a HD box just for this.
>
> It's nothing to do with signal strength, digital TV either works or it
> doesn't. If the signal strength is too low to image will freeze, not
> pixelate.
>
I tried attenuating the signal to see if that helped but it didn't. I've
heard that too strong a signal can cause pixilation and image break up.
> Dave.
Rheilly Phoull
I get pissed off with the audio cutting in and out on live sports progs,
what causes that one ??
--
Regards .............. Rheilly P
Superman
> I get pissed off with the audio cutting in and out on live sports progs,
> what causes that one ??
>
>
It's the same cause as the pixilation- interruption of the digital stream
--
rgds,
Pete
=====
http://pw352.blogspot.com
"We stopped the boats coming. The facts speak for themselves. People knew where we stood. We didn't try to be all things to all men. Look, our policy worked. There was no need to alter it" - John Howard
DaveS
_man_of_steel"@metropolis.com> wrote:
>
>'King Arthur' on channel 7 is unwatchable! It's constantly pixilating,
>although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength is 10! (full
>scale) BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
Looked okay on my 1989 TV!
Sylvia Else
>
> 'King Arthur' on channel 7 is unwatchable! It's constantly pixilating,
> although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength is 10! (full
> scale) BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
>
Are you using an outdoor antenna?
Sylvia.
Superman
Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way
splitter amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
And why do the ads not pixilate? There must be some difference in the
nature of the transmission.
>
> Sylvia.
Phil Allison
"Rheilly Phoull"
>
> I get pissed off with the audio cutting in and out on live sports progs,
> what causes that one ??
** That was going on a lot at the recent live Golf in Melbourne and Sydney.
The on-course commentators were using back pack portable radio links to the
OB van - which I suspect were not terribly reliable at getting through
obstacles like crowds of people or thick vegetation etc.
..... Phil
Phil Allison
"Superman"
> Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way splitter
> amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
>
> I was watching on 70. sorry, I didn't mention that. It was just hopeless.
> but there was a storm and lightning last night. perhaps that was a major
> cause.
** ROTFLMAO !!!
... Phil
Coach
"on-course commentators", pray tell? Commentators aren't allowed on
the course. They are allowed to stand only just off the course. I
hope that both helps AND informs.
Superman
I'm glad you're amused. Pity you don't see fit to mention it's cause for
the benefit of our enlightenment.
>
>
> ... Phil
Phil Allison
"Super Stupid man"
>
> Phil Allison
>>
>>> Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way
>>> splitter
>>> amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
>>>
>>> I was watching on 70. sorry, I didn't mention that. It was just
>>> hopeless.
>>> but there was a storm and lightning last night. perhaps that was a major
>>> cause.
>>>
>>
>> ** ROTFLMAO !!!
>>
>
> I'm glad you're amused. Pity you don't see fit to mention it's cause for
> the benefit of our enlightenment.
** For the benefit of readers living outside VIC.
http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wild-thunderstorms-lash-victoria/story-e6frf7jo-1225815371184
..... Phil
Sylvia Else
> On 2/01/2010 11:45 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>
>> Superman wrote:
>>>
>>> 'King Arthur' on channel 7 is unwatchable! It's constantly
>>> pixilating, although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength is
>>> 10! (full scale) BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
>>>
>>
>> Are you using an outdoor antenna?
>
> Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way
> splitter amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
>
> And why do the ads not pixilate? There must be some difference in the
> nature of the transmission.
I wonder whether that's really the case. Ads occupy less time then
program material (though, admittedly, only half as much), and you'll
probably not be paying that much attention to them. So if they do
pixalate, you might not notice.
But, assuming the difference is real...
The word "pixilate" is used somewhat loosely. Overcompression can create
the situation where one becomes aware of the boundaries of the 16x16
pixel macroblocks, particularly during pans.
A burst of noise can destroy the data so that a number of macroblocks
show manifestly wrong content.
I wonder which of these effects you're noticing.
The difference between ads and King Arthur may be that ads are not down
converted from HD. It's possible there's an incompatibility between
Seven's encoder, and your decoder.
Unless you're using a PVR to watch live broadcasts on a non-digital TV,
you might find a difference between using the PVR to do so, or using the
PVR to record and then play back, and using the digital TV or STB to
watch the broadcasts.
My own experience of digital TV is that it's pretty stable, with visual
glitches rare (less than one per several hours).
Sylvia.
Superman
Were you watching thru a STB? HD or SD? and what location?
Superman
> "Super Stupid man"
>
>> Phil Allison
>>
>>>
>>>> Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way
>>>> splitter
>>>> amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
>>>>
>>>> I was watching on 70. sorry, I didn't mention that. It was just
>>>> hopeless.
>>>> but there was a storm and lightning last night. perhaps that was a major
>>>> cause.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ** ROTFLMAO !!!
>>>
>>>
>> I'm glad you're amused. Pity you don't see fit to mention it's cause for our enlightenment.
>>
>
> ** For the benefit of readers living outside VIC.
>
> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wild-thunderstorms-lash-victoria/story-e6frf7jo-1225815371184
>
>
>
So your point is (if you actually have one) is that thunderstorms do
seriously affect digital transmissions, right?
>
> ..... Phil
Superman
> Superman wrote:
>> On 2/01/2010 11:45 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
>>
>>> Superman wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 'King Arthur' on channel 7 is unwatchable! It's constantly
>>>> pixilating, although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength
>>>> is 10! (full scale) BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Are you using an outdoor antenna?
>>
>> Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way
>> splitter amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
>>
>> And why do the ads not pixilate? There must be some difference in the
>> nature of the transmission.
>
> I wonder whether that's really the case. Ads occupy less time then
> program material (though, admittedly, only half as much), and you'll
> probably not be paying that much attention to them. So if they do
> pixalate, you might not notice.
accepted
>
> But, assuming the difference is real...
>
> The word "pixilate" is used somewhat loosely. Overcompression can
> create the situation where one becomes aware of the boundaries of the
> 16x16 pixel macroblocks, particularly during pans.
>
> A burst of noise can destroy the data so that a number of macroblocks
> show manifestly wrong content.
>
> I wonder which of these effects you're noticing.
the latter
>
> The difference between ads and King Arthur may be that ads are not
> down converted from HD. It's possible there's an incompatibility
> between Seven's encoder, and your decoder.
>
> Unless you're using a PVR to watch live broadcasts on a non-digital
> TV, you might find a difference between using the PVR to do so, or
> using the PVR to record and then play back, and using the digital TV
> or STB to watch the broadcasts.
I have the current model Panasonic DVDR and recorded it
>
> My own experience of digital TV is that it's pretty stable, with
> visual glitches rare (less than one per several hours).
I think location is relevant in that regard.
Phil Allison
"Super Stupid man"
>>
>>> Phil Allison
>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way
>>>>> splitter amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
>>>>>
>>>>> I was watching on 70. sorry, I didn't mention that. It was just
>>>>> hopeless. but there was a storm and lightning last night. perhaps that
>>>>> was a major cause.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ** ROTFLMAO !!!
>>>>
>>>>
>>> I'm glad you're amused. Pity you don't see fit to mention it's cause for
>>> our enlightenment.
>>>
>>
>> ** For the benefit of readers living outside VIC.
>>
>> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wild-thunderstorms-lash-victoria/story-e6frf7jo-1225815371184
>>
>
>
> So your point is (if you actually have one) is that thunderstorms do
> seriously affect digital transmissions, right?
** Errrrrrrr - yes .....
...... Phil
Sylvia Else
The best bet seems to be that it's a noise issue. Either someone in your
locality (including you yourself) is generating bursts of noise that the
antenna picks up, or mains noise is getting in - perhaps at the splitter
amplifier.
It would be worth checking that the antenna cable screen is properly
connected everywhere.
If the problem is radiated noise from an electric arc, then you'd
probably hear it on an AM radio - particular one that's not tuned to a
station. You could try watchng live TV while such a radio is on, and see
whether there's a correlation between bad video on the TV and noise on
the radio.
Sylvia.
Superman
> "Super Stupid man"
>
>>>> "Phil the dill" wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way
>>>>>> splitter amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I was watching on 70. sorry, I didn't mention that. It was just
>>>>>> hopeless. but there was a storm and lightning last night. perhaps that
>>>>>> was a major cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> ** ROTFLMAO !!!
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> I'm glad you're amused. Pity you don't see fit to mention it's cause for
>>>> our enlightenment.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> ** For the benefit of readers living outside VIC.
>>>
>>> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wild-thunderstorms-lash-victoria/story-e6frf7jo-1225815371184
>>>
>>
>> So your point (if you actually have one) is that thunderstorms do
>> seriously affect digital transmissions, right?
>>
>
> ** Errrrrrrr - yes .....
>
>
I had been watching earlier in the evening when the storm was most
severe, and the transmission was fine, but that was on channel 90. And
I'm fairly sure that the storm had all but finished when 'King Arthur'
was on, so how do you explain that? Can we assume that there is some
difference in the signal between nine HD and 7 HD? According to my meter
the signal strengh and quality is the same for both stations- full
scale, 10.
> ...... Phil
Sylvia Else
Um, or a thunderstorm.
Sylvia.
David L. Jones
In that case the cause could be anything.
The storm (even if it's passed you), electrical interference from a neighor
using a bit of quipment, or most likely something in your own house (washing
machine or lights for example), or a whole host of other stuff.
> I have the current model Panasonic DVDR and recorded it
Were you playing with any gear while you recorded it?
Switching lights off and on is a common cause of interference for example.
My garage roller door for example will completely blot every single digital
channel. And that's after I've tried all sorts of filtering techniques and
got a proper digital only log-periodic antenna.
>> My own experience of digital TV is that it's pretty stable, with
>> visual glitches rare (less than one per several hours).
>
> I think location is relevant in that regard.
Yep, but I'm betting in this case it's a bit of gear in your house switching
on and off while you were recording.
Phil Allison
Phil Allison
>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way
>>>>>>> splitter amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I was watching on 70. sorry, I didn't mention that. It was just
>>>>>>> hopeless. but there was a storm and lightning last night. perhaps
>>>>>>> that
>>>>>>> was a major cause.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> ** ROTFLMAO !!!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>> I'm glad you're amused. Pity you don't see fit to mention it's cause
>>>>> for
>>>>> our enlightenment.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ** For the benefit of readers living outside VIC.
>>>>
>>>> http://www.heraldsun.com.au/news/wild-thunderstorms-lash-victoria/story-e6frf7jo-1225815371184
>>>>
>>>
>>> So your point (if you actually have one) is that thunderstorms do
>>> seriously affect digital transmissions, right?
>>>
>>
>> ** Errrrrrrr - yes .....
>>
>>
> I had been watching earlier in the evening when the storm was most severe,
> and the transmission was fine,
** Blah, blah, blah - more tedious bullshit.
The issue is LIGHTNING !!!
How much, what kind and where all make a difference.
Lightning does NOT have to be visible to YOU to interfere with the pix on
your TV.
With analogue TV you see bursts of noise on the screen - with DTV you get
pixilation or worse.
What planet have you been living on - was it Krypton by any chance ??
..... Phil
atec 7 7
or similar and the waveform edges get messy hence failure to hold lock well
DaveS
_man_of_steel"@metropolis.com> wrote:
>On 2/01/2010 11:01 AM, DaveS wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 13:01:51 GMT, Superman<"the
>> _man_of_steel"@metropolis.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>> 'King Arthur' on channel 7 is unwatchable! It's constantly pixilating,
>>> although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength is 10! (full
>>> scale) BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
>>>
>> Looked okay on my 1989 TV!
>>
>
>Were you watching thru a STB? HD or SD? and what location?
None of those new fangled things, young fella.....
geoff
> In that case the cause could be anything.
> The storm (even if it's passed you), electrical interference from a
> neighor using a bit of quipment, or most likely something in your own
> house (washing machine or lights for example), or a whole host of
> other stuff.
Or even heavy rain.
geoff
Superman
> On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 01:55:18 GMT, Superman<"the
> _man_of_steel"@metropolis.com> wrote:
>
>
>> On 2/01/2010 11:01 AM, DaveS wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, 01 Jan 2010 13:01:51 GMT, Superman<"the
>>> _man_of_steel"@metropolis.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> 'King Arthur' on channel 70 is unwatchable! It's constantly pixilating,
>>>> although the DVDR says the signal quality and strength is 10! (full
>>>> scale) BUT the ads don't pixilate. Now why is that?
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Looked okay on my 1989 TV!
>>>
>>>
>> Were you watching thru a STB? HD or SD? and what location?
>>
> None of those new fangled things, young fella.....
>
Well then you wouldn't have a problem with pixilation since you're
watching an analogue transmission not digital.
Superman
> "Super Stupid man"
>
That would be you for thinking that just because someone doesn't know a
lot about a particular subject, it means that they're stupid. How much
do you know about Medieval literature for example? Or Palaeoecology? Or
maybe carpentry or plumbing? Does it mean you're stupid if you know SFA
about any of those subjects, or a myriad of others I could mention? I
know far more about electronics matters than the average person, but
unlike you I don't consider that makes others stupid.
Superman
> In simple terms it might be equated with over-modulation in a radio
> mike or similar and the waveform edges get messy hence failure to hold
> lock well
Do you think if I reduce the amplifier gain it might help the situation?
Sylvia Else
Phil considers everyone to be stupid, with the exception of himself. He
is totally unbiased in this respect.
Sylvia.
Dr. Sir John Howard, AC, WSCMoF
You might say he's an expert on stupidity.
--
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ipvdBnU8F8
- KRudd at his finest.
"The Labour Party is corrupt beyond redemption!"
- Labour hasbeen Mark Latham in a moment of honest clarity.
"This is the recession we had to have!"
- Paul Keating explaining why he gave Australia another Labour recession.
"Silly old bugger!"
- Well known ACTU pisspot and sometime Labour prime minister Bob Hawke
responding to a pensioner who dared ask for more.
"By 1990, no child will live in poverty"
- Bob Hawke again, desperate to win another election.
"A billion trees ..."
- Borke, pissed as a newt again.
"Well may we say 'God save the Queen' because nothing will save the governor
general!"
- Egotistical shithead and pompous fuckwit E.G. Whitlam whining about his
appointee for Governor General John Kerr.
"SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU DUMB CUNT!"
- FlangesBum on learning the truth about Labour's economic capabilities.
"I don't care what you fuckers think!"
- KRudd the KRude Rat at his finest again.
"We'll just change it all when we get in."
- Garrett the carrott
DaveS
_man_of_steel"@metropolis.com> wrote:
>Well then you wouldn't have a problem with pixilation since you're
>watching an analogue transmission not digital.
You finally worked it out - pick a kewpie doll from the top shelf.....
Phil Allison
"Super Stupid man"
> Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way splitter
> amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
>
> I was watching on 70. sorry, I didn't mention that. It was just hopeless.
> but there was a storm and lightning last night. perhaps that was a major
> cause.
** ROTFLMAO !!!
... Phil
Phil Allison
"Super Stupid man"
> Yes, I have a digital fringe range aerial running into a four way splitter
> amplifier. (outer melb metro area location)
>
> I was watching on 70. sorry, I didn't mention that. It was just hopeless.
> but there was a storm and lightning last night. perhaps that was a major
> cause.
atec 7 7
hurt , how much signal does the stp report on the bad channel ?
atec 7 7
fooled you meatpipe gobbling troll
Superman
smartase prick..
geoff
I guess that's the oposite of a dumb-arse prick ....
geoff
Superman
The DVDR is reporting 10 out of 10 on the scale for both signal strength
and signal quality, but there are no numbers on the scale to indicate
what the measurement is. I'll true reducing the amplifier gain and see
what happens.
Superman
The splitter is a Kingray and 'designed for digital' so I'm assuming
that it's good quality. However, the fact that it's in a plastic box and
not metal has always been of some concern to me.
>>
>> It would be worth checking that the antenna cable screen is properly
>> connected everywhere.
The cabling is RG6 and I installed it myself, so that's not likely an issue.
>>
>> If the problem is radiated noise from an electric arc, then you'd
>> probably hear it on an AM radio - particular one that's not tuned to
>> a station. You could try watchng live TV while such a radio is on,
>> and see whether there's a correlation between bad video on the TV and
>> noise on the radio.
Ok, I'll try that thanks.
>>
>> Sylvia.
>>
>
> Um, or a thunderstorm.
Well the channel 10 5:00 news was pixilating badly yesterday at times
and there were no storms then. I'll give Panasonic a ring and see what
they have to say.
Mr.T
"Superman" <"the _man_of_steel"@metropolis.com> wrote in message
news:JJz0n.66934$ze1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> >> Do you think if I reduce the amplifier gain it might help the
situation?
> >>
> > you should really takes measurements although its a simple test and
> > cant hurt , how much signal does the stp report on the bad channel ?
>
> The DVDR is reporting 10 out of 10 on the scale for both signal strength
> and signal quality, but there are no numbers on the scale to indicate
> what the measurement is. I'll true reducing the amplifier gain and see
> what happens.
Yep, if it's showing max signal, that would be the first thing to try. I
have to use an attenuator for SBS (no amplifier, just a strong signal)
MrT.
Superman
So you were getting pixilation on SBS and that fixed it?
> MrT.
Mr.T
> So you were getting pixilation on SBS and that fixed it?
Yep, and even worse was the horrible screeches on the audio. No guarantees
that is your problem however.
MrT.
Superman
I notice that the newer STB's, etc., mute the audio when the signal
fails, so you don't get those horrible noises.
I've reduced the amplifier gain now to minimum. It will be an easy fix
it it's the prob. I had the good sense to locate the splitter just
adjacent to the manhole so I can access it without actually having to
get into the roof cavity.
Superman
> using a bit of equipment, or most likely something in your own house (washing
> machine or lights for example), or a whole host of other stuff.
>
>> I have the current model Panasonic DVDR and recorded it
>>
> Were you playing with any gear while you recorded it?
>
I don't recall but I have a lot of other equipment connected
interactively and to the panel. However, doesn't the interference have
to come via the antenna cable? I also have all the video/audio gear
plugged into a Belkin filtration power board.
> Switching lights off and on is a common cause of interference for example.
> My garage roller door for example will completely blot every single digital
> channel. And that's after I've tried all sorts of filtering techniques and
> got a proper digital only log-periodic antenna.
>
>
>>> My own experience of digital TV is that it's pretty stable, with
>>> visual glitches rare (less than one per several hours).
>>>
>> I think location is relevant in that regard.
>>
> Yep, but I'm betting in this case it's a bit of gear in your house switching
> on and off while you were recording.
>
Wouldn't such things cause just a very brief glitch? This is digital
distortion that lasts anything up to a minute. Also I still get the
pixilation on timer record when no one is in the house, and on live TV
of course. I have now turned the amplifier gain to minimum and I plan on
relocating the antenna further from it's present close proximity to the
computer set up.
> Dave.
Superman
> Superman"<"the _man_of_steel wrote:
>
>> On 3/01/2010 4:21 PM, DaveS wrote:
>>
>>
>>> On Sun, 03 Jan 2010 04:33:47 GMT, Superman<"the
>>> _man_of_steel"@metropolis.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> Well then you wouldn't have a problem with pixilation since you're
>>>> watching an analogue transmission not digital.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> You finally worked it out - pick a kewpie doll from the top
>>> shelf.....
>>>
>> smartarse prick..
>>
> I guess that's the oposite of a dumb-arse prick ....
>
If I've misjudged the gentleman I apologise. This was discussion about
digital so his initial remark was obfuscating.
> geoff