Melbourne's goth scene from a Canberran perspective...
Ammorata
Whenever the majority of you a.c.g folks hear even the
slightest mention of the Canberran goth scene, you dismiss
it as some sort of joke - quite understandably ... Canberra
can hardly be expected to rival Sydney or Melbourne in this
subculture of ours ... but I thought I might reflect on my
trip to Melbourne and compare the scene to Canberra's ..
both for my own benefit (putting thoughts into words always
clarifies) and for your interest ... attempted to make
a cohesive description of Melbourne's goth scene from a
Canberran perspective
A bit of background because I don't really post here all that
often .. I've DJ'd at both of Canberra's major
goth/industrial/electronica
nights - Narcissus & Nexus, while at the same time visited
Melbourne's major nights (such as Abyss & Subculture) to some of
the smaller (but usually better) such as Revelations, Ultraviolet and
various once off related events such as the Depeche Mode/Pet
Shop Boy special at Level1 last year ... I've also had the
fortunate opportunity to meet and talk (to varying extents)
with many of those involved in both the Melbourne and Canberra
goth scenes: tailors; managers; organisers; promoters and DJs...
both in the past (eg Oblivion & Millineum) and currently...
But this doesn't exempt me from bias... I still live in Canberra and
am only a tourist in Melbourne.
Interesting observation - while Canberra has vans which provide
syringes for free next to electronically operated public toilets which
ensure privacy and are also equipped with sharps disposal, Melbourne has
public
toilets with blue lighting that prevents one from seeing their own
veins.
Delighting contrast.
Canberra's scene is much less developed than Melbourne's as there
are only 2 goth nights, both which run monthly and on weeknights, which
result
in goths having to take refuge in other clubs/bars, a plight not shared
by those in Melbourne who have Revelations, Abyss, the Belfry,
Ultraviolet,
Subculture and probably many other clubs that I am ignorant of ...
there are advantages and disadvantages of the situation ... Canberra's
community
is a lot smaller (basically everybody knows everybody else), quite
quaint and more
friendly - lacking the pretentious divisions that are evident in
Melbourne's community ... hence the nights that open in reaction
to the blatant commercialism of clubs like Subculture (aka
Substandard/Subclutter) and
Abyss (aka Abysmal) such as Ultraviolet and Revelations ... Melbourne's
population allows it to house extremities that are rare in Canberra, but
for the same reason, it also houses far more mediocrity ... this is
evident
in so many facets of the society - fashion, dancing, music, and range of
clubs.
Mind you, I don't think I've ever seen people in Melbourne carve designs
in each other for aesthetic value
(http://www.angelfire.com/ns/narcissus/images/people/3.jpg - a
particularly bad example, but an example)
Now to pass judgement on individual nights:
Revelations: Of all the goth nights in Melbourne, this remynds me the
most of
Canberran nights because of its laid back, relaxed feel ... this
manifests
itself in an accepting atmosphere and some very obscure music here
and there, which is interesting (except when song after song is
something
unrecognisable). Good variety too. Probably my favourite Melbourne
club,
but it usually has periods towards the end of the night in which i find
the
music almost unbearably dull ... the only other goth club that has
achieved
this is Ultraviolet, but that is slightly different ... I'd absolutely
love to DJ at Revelations just because of the kind of freedom one has.
Met a lot of cool people here: D, Lucy, Kate, and Kane...
Ultraviolet: Only been here once, back when Valentina used to be around,
but it seemed in their attempt to strive for "authentic goth" and to
backlash
against Substandard and Abyssmal they neglected the crowd a lil',
despite honest attempts at some requests ... so I think that led to some
unecessary alienation. A lot of potential though, and seeings I haven't
been since ages ago, and its been reborn, it could now be an impressive
event
and I'm just missing out. All clubs should be given a lil' time to
evolve.
Subculture (aka Substandard): I enjoy this club, altho I do understand
why people call it Substandard. Bad ventilation. Too loud on the first
level. Crowded. Drinks too expensive. First floor plays same shit
every week.
Extremely commercialised. I mean they don't let you get a cup from the
bar so
you can drink water from a tap in toilets. They want to sell you water.
Thats fucking annoying. However, some commercial songs are actually
good...
Abyss (aka abyssmal): Nice venue, tho music and much of the people
seemed excessively pretentious/uninteresting/plain crap. Thus it
only deserved one visit. Someone wise once said "you've got to TRY
and have fun at abyss, unlike at other places"
Narcissus (Canberra): More strict goth than Nexus in general, which is
good because in Canberra, it is seriously lacking.
http://www.angelfire.com/ns/narcissus/ A lot of fun, and the stage
often provides a 3-storey dancefloor when people are outgoing/drunk
enough or when the dancefloor is packed... and thats good.
Nexus (Canberra): My preference of the two Canberra clubs, a much better
venue and i also prefer the music which has a lot of variety to it...
Revelations reminds me of it, tho without as much obscure music (mind
you, the majority of revelations music is not obscure).
Final verdict (why did you read this far???)
Naturally, Melbourne's scene is larger, more interesting, better funded,
and more fun that Canberra's, but one cannot discount Canberra's
becoming features that exist because of its small goth population.
Nexus & Narcissus are definately as good, if not better than any
Melbourne
club, but they happen entirely too infrequently and because they are
small they don't go on late enough into the morning ...
~Ammorata
Mike
Spark wrote:
> Ammorata <geg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:389EE00F...@hotmail.com...
> > and more fun that Canberra's, but one cannot discount Canberra's
> > becoming features that exist because of its small goth population.
> > Nexus & Narcissus are definately as good, if not better than any
> > Melbourne
> > club, but they happen entirely too infrequently and because they are
> > small they don't go on late enough into the morning ...
>
Heh....They definately dont....I went to Narcissus for the first time on
thursday and it started emptying out around midnight.....And they called last
drinks at 2....Kinda disappointing but better than nothing at all I guess.
Ash
> The drinks remark I don't understand, as they're the same
> price as Blue Velvet, Revelations and Abyss.
Odd, there's one barperson at Revelations who charges me $3.50 for a Strongbow
while another charges $4.00, and it goes all the way up to $5.50 at Abyss. Can't
remember how much one is at Subculture, however.
-Ash
*Sweet, Dry then Daft*
Antti Roppola
<ne...@vurt.net> did verily smite their keyboard thus:
>On Mon, 07 Feb 2000 15:13:43 GMT, Ammorata <geg...@hotmail.com>
>wrote:
>>Abyss (aka abyssmal): Nice venue, tho music and much of the people
>>seemed excessively pretentious/uninteresting/plain crap. Thus it
>Well then...
>the only thing I can say to that is..
>
>'CUNTS!!!!!!!!!'
>
>I try my hardest *sniff*
>I do my best.....god knows..I even play *requests*!!!
>*sob*
Maybe if you played more Gary Numan....
Antti
"It's the worst feeling in the world to love a song and then
discover that what they're singing about is lame" - Kristin Hersh
Antti Roppola
<geg...@hotmail.com> did verily smite their keyboard thusl:
>Canberra's scene is much less developed than Melbourne's as there
>are only 2 goth nights, both which run monthly and on weeknights, which
I read that as "Canberra's scene is much less developed than
Melbourne's as there are only 2 goths". Which is probably not far from
the truth.
>there are advantages and disadvantages of the situation ... Canberra's
>community
>is a lot smaller (basically everybody knows everybody else), quite
>quaint and more
>friendly - lacking the pretentious divisions that are evident in
>Melbourne's community ... hence the nights that open in reaction
Eh? Which Canberra are *you* from?
>Mind you, I don't think I've ever seen people in Melbourne carve designs
>
>in each other for aesthetic value
>(http://www.angelfire.com/ns/narcissus/images/people/3.jpg - a
>particularly bad example, but an example)
Then you don't know the right Melbourne people. I must hasten to add
that the complete photoset of the mentioned example in progress is
most entertaining viewing all the same.
>Now to pass judgement on individual nights:
>why people call it Substandard. Bad ventilation. Too loud on the first
Too loud????? Too loud??????? You need more tinnitus, that's all.
>Extremely commercialised. I mean they don't let you get a cup from the
>bar so
>you can drink water from a tap in toilets.
No comment here, I just thought I'd draw attention to it.
Though I think bars in Canberra are obliged to provide water.
>Abyss (aka abyssmal): Nice venue, tho music and much of the people
>seemed excessively pretentious/uninteresting/plain crap. Thus it
>only deserved one visit. Someone wise once said "you've got to TRY
>and have fun at abyss, unlike at other places"
Hey, I have had many a mighty midnight 'til dawn extravaganza at
Abyss. People like paying out on Abyss, but after Abyss, WTF else are
you going to go that's *better*?
>Nexus (Canberra): My preference of the two Canberra clubs, a much better
>venue and i also prefer the music which has a lot of variety to it...
I find the reverse. The music at Nexus tends to be a lot more of the
same different stuff. I have yet to attend a Nexus where DK "Holiday
in Camodia" is *not* played. (as a Jello fan, I see this as a plus)
>Final verdict (why did you read this far???)
Good question.
>Nexus & Narcissus are definately as good, if not better than any
>Melbourne
>club, but they happen entirely too infrequently and because they are
>small they don't go on late enough into the morning ...
There isn't enough population and therefore $$$ to fund more.
>~Ammorata
Spark
>
> Whenever the majority of you a.c.g folks hear even the
> slightest mention of the Canberran goth scene, you dismiss
> it as some sort of joke - quite understandably ...
Really? I suppose it's a bit of a joke that Canberra Goths usually end up
moving to Sydney or Melbourne, but I found the scene there a little more
tightly knit than in Melbourne. It seemed a good thing.
> Interesting observation - while Canberra has vans which provide
> syringes for free next to electronically operated public toilets which
> ensure privacy and are also equipped with sharps disposal, Melbourne has
> public
> toilets with blue lighting that prevents one from seeing their own
> veins.
> Delighting contrast.
Understandable if you consider that the drug culture (in my exp) is far, far
wider and more accepted in Canberra than in Melbourne.
> is a lot smaller (basically everybody knows everybody else), quite
> quaint and more
> friendly - lacking the pretentious divisions that are evident in
> Melbourne's community ...
It was much, much worse 4-5 years ago. Even 3 years ago.
>
> Now to pass judgement on individual nights:
>
> Revelations: Of all the goth nights in Melbourne, this remynds me the
> most of
> Canberran nights because of its laid back, relaxed feel ... this
> manifests
> itself in an accepting atmosphere and some very obscure music here
> and there, which is interesting (except when song after song is
> something
> unrecognisable). Good variety too. Probably my favourite Melbourne
> club,
> but it usually has periods towards the end of the night in which i find
> the
> music almost unbearably dull ... the only other goth club that has
> achieved
> this is Ultraviolet, but that is slightly different ... I'd absolutely
> love to DJ at Revelations just because of the kind of freedom one has.
Given my somewhat questionable status with said club atm, I suppose this has
to be taken with a certain grain of salt, but ...
It was much more free in the Level 1 days. In fact, I don't think I've ever
seen such a good night as Rev @ Level1. Ever. IMHO, of course ... :)
>
> Ultraviolet: Only been here once, back when Valentina used to be around,
>
> but it seemed in their attempt to strive for "authentic goth" and to
> backlash
> against Substandard and Abyssmal they neglected the crowd a lil',
> despite honest attempts at some requests ... so I think that led to some
>
> unecessary alienation. A lot of potential though, and seeings I haven't
>
> been since ages ago, and its been reborn, it could now be an impressive
> event
> and I'm just missing out. All clubs should be given a lil' time to
> evolve.
But it set a different standard, which was what the Melbourne scene really
needed. After some years of Abyss and SubC only, the Melb scene needed a bit
of a schlap in the face, and Ultra Violet was it.
>
> Subculture (aka Substandard): I enjoy this club, altho I do understand
> why people call it Substandard. Bad ventilation. Too loud on the first
>
> level. Crowded. Drinks too expensive. First floor plays same shit
> every week.
> Extremely commercialised. I mean they don't let you get a cup from the
> bar so
> you can drink water from a tap in toilets. They want to sell you water.
Yes, and the odd character wandering from the first floor is not what one
needs. I don't know about extremely commercialised (on the Goth level,
anyway), given that half of my DJ rants on this ng have based on what I play
@ SubC these days. The drinks remark I don't understand, as they're the same
price as Blue Velvet, Revelations and Abyss. But the venue does seem just a
tad too biased about making money.
>
> Abyss (aka abyssmal): Nice venue, tho music and much of the people
> seemed excessively pretentious/uninteresting/plain crap. Thus it
> only deserved one visit. Someone wise once said "you've got to TRY
> and have fun at abyss, unlike at other places"
I've found otherwise, but I always find the venue plays a big part for me.
Dream (Rev) I love because of ancient memories, Paladin (Abyss) because I
think it's one of the best venues I've ever seen, and CBD (SubC) is just
plain terrible. Although that's supposed to change.
> and more fun that Canberra's, but one cannot discount Canberra's
> becoming features that exist because of its small goth population.
> Nexus & Narcissus are definately as good, if not better than any
> Melbourne
> club, but they happen entirely too infrequently and because they are
> small they don't go on late enough into the morning ...
And that's probably a pity.
I would've been interested to see how you would've compared Blue Velvet. ATM
it has to be about my favourite place of going out ....
L.
--
http://revelations.gothic.net.au
http://www.gothic.net.au/~entropy
Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly. I gotta live thrice more before I die.
Can't help living these nine lives 'o mine ......
Kyoto
wrote:
>Rev have a happyhour after 2am so maybe the cheaper drinks you got
>were after then?
Ohhhhh yeah.....
- Jojo (bourbon and coke, bourbon and coke, bourbon and coke..)
Trayce
wrote:
>Abyss (aka abyssmal): Nice venue, tho music and much of the people
>seemed excessively pretentious/uninteresting/plain crap. Thus it
>only deserved one visit. Someone wise once said "you've got to TRY
>and have fun at abyss, unlike at other places"
...but you admit you've only been there once. While I'd hardly defend
Abyss as the worlds greatest club, one thing I have noticed is it
definitely seems to have it's "moments".... some weeks are great (like
last week - the 40 degree heat addled everyones brains and resulted in
a spirited hilarity I havent seen in ages) and some weeks are utter
crap (Halloween and Xmas eve come to mind, either dead or full of "ooh
lets go to a whacky goff club!" tryhards).
I agree with Louis - the venue maketh the night in a lot of ways. And
Paladin is indeed a great venue.
>Naturally, Melbourne's scene is larger, more interesting, better funded,
>
>and more fun that Canberra's, but one cannot discount Canberra's
>becoming features that exist because of its small goth population.
>Nexus & Narcissus are definately as good, if not better than any
>Melbourne
>club, but they happen entirely too infrequently and because they are
>small they don't go on late enough into the morning ...
I'm inclined at this point to ask (I wont assume) how long you've been
on the "scene" as it were in Canberra. Because 10-12 years ago we had
a 2-night a week goth/gay night called Manhattan that ran from 10 til
dawn and while not packed to the gills was always pretty busy... it
eventually died but was replaced by a couple of more indie style clubs
that most of the goths still around went to (Circus, Hacienda and
Heaven) and again these were all on every week.
What's happened since then? I suppose everyone up and moving away
killed off the scene as it used to be. Maybe I was a little naive back
then but the scene seemed pretty healthy - and viciously petty as well
;) I wonder if Kahl remembers all the babygoths swooning over Mark (I
forget his last name) cause he was the eldergoff of the scene...
bloody heirarchies I always ignored them anyway :)
God... this is scaring me and I dont think I'll think about it
anymore. ;P
Trayce (aaaargh!).
--
trace @ connect.net.au
http://people.connect.net.au/~trace
"This dark ceiling without a star" (Sylvia Plath)
Trayce
>Spark wrote:
>
>> The drinks remark I don't understand, as they're the same
>> price as Blue Velvet, Revelations and Abyss.
>
>Odd, there's one barperson at Revelations who charges me $3.50 for a Strongbow
>while another charges $4.00, and it goes all the way up to $5.50 at Abyss. Can't
>remember how much one is at Subculture, however.
Rev have a happyhour after 2am so maybe the cheaper drinks you got
were after then?
Trayce (dont stop me, I know my drinks! *hic)
Ammorata
> >Abyss as the worlds greatest club, one thing I have noticed is it
> >definitely seems to have it's "moments".... some weeks are great (like
> >last week - the 40 degree heat addled everyones brains and resulted in
> >a spirited hilarity I havent seen in ages) and some weeks are utter
> >crap (Halloween and Xmas eve come to mind, either dead or full of "ooh
> >lets go to a whacky goff club!" tryhards).
but I wouldn't pay $5 for the possibility of fynding a moment, especially
when a moment is lacking, you are left thoroughy unimpressed. I suppose
my opinion is formulated from my own first impression conjoined with
the poor opinions of those I've talked to ...
> >I agree with Louis - the venue maketh the night in a lot of ways. And
> >Paladin is indeed a great venue.
agreed...
>I'm inclined at this point to ask (I wont assume) how long you've been
> >on the "scene" as it were in Canberra. Because 10-12 years ago we had
> >a 2-night a week goth/gay night called Manhattan that ran from 10 til
> >dawn and while not packed to the gills was always pretty busy... it
> >eventually died but was replaced by a couple of more indie style clubs
> >that most of the goths still around went to (Circus, Hacienda and
> >Heaven) and again these were all on every week.
10-12 years ago I wasn't involved at all, I don't even think I had the
slightest goth/macabre tendencies :) Heaven still runs, but few goths
go there, it seems ... its become more mainstream of yet... there
are really no alternative clubs there anymore, and a recent influx of
"High NRG" and "Top 40" clubs is thorougly disturbing. A few
goth folks attend various retro nights (one at ANU, one at Heaven)
and others attend Pop! - which is this bizarre synthesis of bad punk
(Living End) Brit Pop (Blur, Suede etc) and retro pop ... but where
goths go, and what events really cater specifically for the goth/industrial
scene are different things.
> > cause he was the eldergoff of the scene...
the current elder has got to be Tim, somewhere in his 40s I'm guessing,
who is either thoroughly despised or liked by various camps...
its quite amusing.
~Ammorata
Ammorata
> >Really? I suppose it's a bit of a joke that Canberra Goths usually end up
> >moving to Sydney or Melbourne, but I found the scene there a little more
> >tightly knit than in Melbourne. It seemed a good thing.
well I don't think Canberra is quite the home for those a little more open
minded in a lot of ways ... its so much less artistic and cultured than
Melbourne
and Sydney's huge population (in comparison) provides much more
opportunity. But I agree, the fact the scene is more tightly knit is a good
thing... a feeling that I'm yet to fynd in Melbourne (but Revelations gets
kinda close)
> >Understandable if you consider that the drug culture (in my exp) is far, far
> >wider and more accepted in Canberra than in Melbourne.
but it was an interesting observation, none the less..
> >It was much more free in the Level 1 days. In fact, I don't think I've ever
> >seen such a good night as Rev @ Level1. Ever. IMHO, of course ... :)
I ne'er had the opportunity to pay it a visit, but I thought level1 was too
small a venue ...
> >But it set a different standard, which was what the Melbourne scene really
> >needed. After some years of Abyss and SubC only, the Melb scene needed a bit
> >of a schlap in the face, and Ultra Violet was it.
=)
> I would've been interested to see how you would've compared Blue Velvet. ATM
> it has to be about my favourite place of going out ....
well I'm still in town (Melbourne). I wanted to go last Friday but it ended up
I
didn't through reasons beyond my control. I might pay it a visit this Friday ..
but there is also a gig I want to go to on the same night... hmm
~Ammorata
Ammorata
> >Bloody upperclass...public servant goth snobs!
I think I found more snobs at Abyss than any other goth club, to
tell you the truth ... but I only went there once, and so my opinion
is a little premature and almost prejudiced ... I might even
pay it another visit sometime.
~Ammorata
Neef
wrote:
>
>Abyss (aka abyssmal): Nice venue, tho music and much of the people
>seemed excessively pretentious/uninteresting/plain crap. Thus it
>only deserved one visit. Someone wise once said "you've got to TRY
>and have fun at abyss, unlike at other places"
>
Well then...
the only thing I can say to that is..
'CUNTS!!!!!!!!!'
I try my hardest *sniff*
I do my best.....god knows..I even play *requests*!!!
*sob*
Bloody upperclass...public servant goth snobs!
:)
Neef (By the way...Im not sorry to all those people who though the
last song of the night on friday was going to be something goth :) at
least I got a laugh out of it)
Ammorata
> >thursday and it started emptying out around midnight.....And they called last
> >drinks at 2....Kinda disappointing but better than nothing at all I guess.
I've seen worse.... its because Gypsy are in it for the money money money
and they'll close up as soon as they aren't making at least $80 an hour
on drinks ... Nexus is a lil' better because they'll judge it on numbers
at the venue/numbers dancing rather than drinks sold, so if people are
having fun, it runs a lil' later....
~Ammorata
Neef
wrote:
>Rev have a happyhour after 2am so maybe the cheaper drinks you got
>were after then?
>
>Trayce (dont stop me, I know my drinks! *hic)
There was a happy hour???
I was throwing $20 dollar notes at the bar people just so they would
come near me!!!!!
Seriously...One said she was actually afraid of serving me...
maybe that was because I was standing there screaming abuse at
everyone that looked they deserved it....including myself...
Damnit...Happy hour my arse....I was still *paying* for drinks..
thats not happy hour in my opinion...
Neef (happily drunk...depressingly sober)
Baralier
> I try my hardest *sniff*
> I do my best.....god knows..I even play *requests*!!!
> *sob*
>
> Bloody upperclass...public servant goth snobs!
>
> :)
>
> Neef (By the way...Im not sorry to all those people who though the
> last song of the night on friday was going to be something goth :) at
> least I got a laugh out of it)
Mind you I did turn around at one point in the evening and say "what's
that bloody noise? Oh. It's okay. Neef's just started DJing"
:)
Baralier
(my turn soon)
--
It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning
to others.
http://www.eisa.net.au/~baralier/index.html
Co-ordinator :The Society of the Black Rose
Costumier & Reprobate
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Baralier
> >were after then?
> >
> >Trayce (dont stop me, I know my drinks! *hic)
>
> There was a happy hour???
> I was throwing $20 dollar notes at the bar people just so they would
> come near me!!!!!
> Seriously...One said she was actually afraid of serving me...
> maybe that was because I was standing there screaming abuse at
> everyone that looked they deserved it....including myself...
> Damnit...Happy hour my arse....I was still *paying* for drinks..
> thats not happy hour in my opinion...
But Neef I'm sure the RSPCA is still trying to stop your idea of Happy
Hour.
Baralier
(there are some things even ferrets won't do)
Neef
wrote:
>
>Mind you I did turn around at one point in the evening and say "what's
>that bloody noise? Oh. It's okay. Neef's just started DJing"
>
And fuck you do my dear!
Fuck all of you for that matter!!!!
Its so hard being a true Artiste these days!
you people just dont appreciate me!!!
Wait untill Im dead! then you'll all be sorry!!!!!
pack of uncultured bastards!
>:)
>
>Baralier
>(my turn soon)
damn straight...although this time ,Im going to throw a brick through
your front window. :)
Actually..I did my best to play some relatively different stuff this
time around.....people seemed to like it none the less...
Oh well....
neef (bastards!)
Neef
wrote:
>But Neef I'm sure the RSPCA is still trying to stop your idea of Happy
>Hour.
And you promised that you wouldnt mention that in public!!!!!!!
damnit!
>
>Baralier
>(there are some things even ferrets won't do)
there are?
What are they?
Should I be looking at getting a weasle or a stoat then??
Will they do what ferrets wont?
Neef(hey chief! It also says here that its illegal to put ferrets down
your trousers for the purposes of gambling!)
Ash
> >Odd, there's one barperson at Revelations who charges me $3.50 for a Strongbow
> >while another charges $4.00, and it goes all the way up to $5.50 at Abyss. Can't
> >remember how much one is at Subculture, however.
>
> Rev have a happyhour after 2am so maybe the cheaper drinks you got
> were after then?
Ah nope, they always charge me $2 for a Strongbow during happy hour.
Happy hour goooooooood...
-Ash
Trayce
hastily:
>Actually..I did my best to play some relatively different stuff this
>time around.....people seemed to like it none the less...
You played KLF and I was happy in my sweat soaked
spazzmo-dance-enduced haze...
and bugger all of youse, I'm not apologising for liking KLF!
Trayce (dos dedos ,mi amigos! ;P )
Baralier
> >(there are some things even ferrets won't do)
>
> there are?
>
> What are they?
> Should I be looking at getting a weasle or a stoat then??
> Will they do what ferrets wont?
>
> Neef(hey chief! It also says here that its illegal to put ferrets down
> your trousers for the purposes of gambling!)
"I can still remember waking up one morning with the whole house full of
ferrets - singing! If only it wasn't the same tune over and over!"
Baralier
(John Clease rules!)
miss alexandra
> I'm inclined at this point to ask (I wont assume) how long you've been
> on the "scene" as it were in Canberra.
I was wondering the same thing.
> Because 10-12 years ago we had
> a 2-night a week goth/gay night called Manhattan that ran from 10 til
> dawn and while not packed to the gills was always pretty busy...
*gets all misty eyed and in 'them were the days' mode*
> it
> eventually died but was replaced by a couple of more indie style clubs
> that most of the goths still around went to (Circus, Hacienda and
> Heaven) and again these were all on every week.
and don't forget the Meridian. A long term club (in canberra terms) - a
gay clun that started off at Gorman house, moved to the Uni, ended up in
Braddon. A home away from home (especially with Dean around!)...
> What's happened since then? I suppose everyone up and moving away
> killed off the scene as it used to be. Maybe I was a little naive back
> then but the scene seemed pretty healthy - and viciously petty as well
> ;)
jesus, IT WAS! i mean, the point about comparring gothfashion in
melbourne and in canberra - i remember a time when you used to have *at
least* 3 or 4 seperate independant purely goth storeholders and
designers @ gorman house markets - Christine, Kate and Sylvia leap to
mind.
> I wonder if Kahl remembers all the babygoths swooning over Mark (I
> forget his last name) cause he was the eldergoff of the scene...
> bloody heirarchies I always ignored them anyway :)
Beaumont. Last I heard, he married Shari and they had a little wee
gothling.
> God... this is scaring me and I dont think I'll think about it
> anymore. ;P
lets never drink together and mention the 'C' word ;)
> Trayce (aaaargh!).
Alex (bashing head on keyboard in sympathy)
--
____________PARASITELOST_______________http://fly.to/parasitelost
"I realized how drunk you were when you started to refer to Mayor
McCheese as the Nick Cave of McDonaldland..." - R_Buckle
miss alexandra
<snip>
> You played KLF and I was happy in my sweat soaked
> spazzmo-dance-enduced haze...
>
> and bugger all of youse, I'm not apologising for liking KLF!
indeed, you shouldn't have to! and even if i got swiped out of the way,
David will come to your defence, KLF-wise - he's taller than me ;)
miss alex
PyroJames
Neef <ne...@vurt.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 06:41:05 GMT, Baralier <bara...@my-deja.com>
> wrote:
>
> >But Neef I'm sure the RSPCA is still trying to stop your idea of
Happy
> >Hour.
> And you promised that you wouldnt mention that in public!!!!!!!
> damnit!
>
> >
> >Baralier
>
> there are?
>
> What are they?
> Should I be looking at getting a weasle or a stoat then??
> Will they do what ferrets wont?
>
> Neef(hey chief! It also says here that its illegal to put ferrets down
> your trousers for the purposes of gambling!)
You should probably be looking at getting yourself a lawyer. I hear
that they will do anything........for a price.
--
PyroJames
I like to start with the truth, you need a good launching pad somewhere.
Trajik
First off drugs. (of course) Canberra scene is soooo much cleaner than
Melbourne,(trust me I would know on this one) but then what’s the point
of speeding all night if the club is going to close at 2am. I was very
surprised and glad to find out how clean it was up here.
In the year that I have been living in Canberra I have found the clubs
to be ok, small, but as someone who has run clubs I realise that the
numbers aren’t there to fill anything other than a week night once a
month. Of the two clubs I think that Narcissus is the better, both in
music and venue. Of the scene in general I have found it easy to meet
friends, you just sit in café essen and the local goths will come up to
you.
But in saying this I really enjoy when I get a chance to come down to
Melb, its like going on a binge (in more than one way) Up and coming
clubs like Rev are fantastic. I really like abyss I find the” lets
knock abyss “ but still come every week amusing and have just put it
down to the goth attitude of cant seem like we are actually enjoying
anything. It was through Abyss that I made most of my goth friends in
melb, so I have trouble understanding why people find it snobby.
I sometimes do long for some of the early 80’s Sydney clubs, but I
think that has more to do with the people I was with, and that the
music was something new rather than the clubs themselves.
But ultimately it comes down to what you bring to the clubs themselves
and what you make them out to be.
>
Trajik
--
"What I did was not for sexual pleasure.
Rather it brought me some peace of mind."
- Andrei Chikatilo
Greylock
pack stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>we had a 2-night a week goth/gay night called Manhattan
It must have been truly awful.
The fashion...
The music....
Not to mention the drama queens and the bitching....
----
"Me, I'd like to think that life is like a drink,
and I'm hoping that it tastes like bourbon".
Madi
>
>Its so hard being a true Artiste these days!
I know, but if you keep practising you'll get there in the end.
>you people just dont appreciate me!!!
I was hoping to depreciate you.
>Wait untill Im dead! then you'll all be sorry!!!!!
Yep. Sorry it wasn't me who done for you.
>pack of uncultured bastards!
Neef - the closest you ever get to "culture" is the crop of syphilis
growing in your underpants.
-Madi (spreading a little sunshine)
--
"Barry the Iguana is banished to the bathroom"
-some TV show on Channel 10
solitaire
miss alexandra <gei...@ihug.com.au> wrote :<more snip>
> > Because 10-12 years ago we had
> > a 2-night a week goth/gay night called Manhattan that ran from 10 til
> > dawn and while not packed to the gills was always pretty busy...
>
> *gets all misty eyed and in 'them were the days' mode*
>
>
> > I wonder if Kahl remembers all the babygoths swooning over Mark (I
> > forget his last name) cause he was the eldergoff of the scene...
> > bloody heirarchies I always ignored them anyway :)
>
> Beaumont. Last I heard, he married Shari and they had a little wee
> gothling.
Noooo!
Say it ain't so?
Little thin Shari?
Meeep.
>
> > God... this is scaring me and I dont think I'll think about it
> > anymore. ;P
Erk. Right there with you.
And definitely not mentioning the Rathdowne Six. Ever.
> > Trayce (aaaargh!).
>
> Alex (bashing head on keyboard in sympathy)
Solitaire (Dammit I moved here to get *away* from my past....)
Neef
xixax*delete_this_to_reply*@spirit.com.au (Antti Roppola) wrote:
>
>Maybe if you played more Gary Numan....
>
And to quote a good friend..
And Fuck you too my sweet :)
Neef (who played a sisters AND more than one cure track on friday
night)
Ammorata
Trajik,
> First off drugs. (of course) Canberra scene is soooo much cleaner than
> Melbourne,(trust me I would know on this one) but then what’s the point
> of speeding all night if the club is going to close at 2am.
*pick a club that doesn't close so early*
> Of the scene in general I have found it easy to meet
> friends, you just sit in café essen and the local goths will come up to
> you.
*agreed* (even tho I'm not a coffee person, and rarely frequent
essen, I still met many a goth without any effort of my own)
> I really like abyss I find the” lets
> knock abyss “ but still come every week amusing
I knock abyss and have only been there once.
Tragik, would I know you? I'm Gerard, the only asian goth
in Canberra, and am often seen traversing the dancefloor
in a single bound ... I DJ'd at the last Nexus I was at, which
was .. umm ... December? (I haven't been around Canberra
recently)
~Ammorata
Neef
wrote:
>>
>> Neef(hey chief! It also says here that its illegal to put ferrets down
>> your trousers for the purposes of gambling!)
>
I thought about getting one of the damn bloodsuckers...but I decided
that there some things even *I* wont do......for a price..
Getting a lawyer is one of them.
Neef (up untill a while ago..that also included installing
frontpage....)
Ammorata
> >music and venue.
I may just prefer Nexus because as a DJ, you get better fringe
benefits there ... when DJ'ing at Gypsy, basic beers still set
you back $2.50 or so, but when DJing at Heaven, not only
do you get a few free drinks (any three one desires) but
quality (usually expensive) beverages - like heinekens or vodka pulps
or stollis only set you back $2. yay! :)
~Ammorata
Richard & Mark
> ferrets - singing! If only it wasn't the same tune over and over!"
>
> Baralier
> (John Clease rules!)
Okay, I'll bite. It's a bloody familiar quote - which Python sketch is
it from?
Richard
Neef
>On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 12:28:38 +1000, most of this drivvel derived from
>Neef <ne...@vurt.net>'s crayola:
>
>>I thought about getting one of the damn bloodsuckers...but I decided
>>that there some things even *I* wont do
>
>
>Now THAT is amazing!!
Not really...
I just refuse to pay a lawyer $400 dolllars an hour to Yank on my
chain when I can got to a night club and have it done for free...
I think I just object paying someone that much money..
so yes...there are some things I *wont* do.
pay people that much money is one of them..
Neef (who has enough trouble handing over the rent)
Madi
Hmmm...sounds more like I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again, to me...
-Madi
Trayce
<gei...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
>and don't forget the Meridian. A long term club (in canberra terms) - a
>gay clun that started off at Gorman house, moved to the Uni, ended up in
>Braddon. A home away from home (especially with Dean around!)...
Not tall skinny geeky-gay Dean who used to go out with Nadine? Shit
that would be scary.
>jesus, IT WAS! i mean, the point about comparring gothfashion in
>melbourne and in canberra - i remember a time when you used to have *at
>least* 3 or 4 seperate independant purely goth storeholders and
>designers @ gorman house markets - Christine, Kate and Sylvia leap to
>mind.
I was always scared of them three... they were like ubergoth snobs
when I was a wee little girly ;)
>
>> I wonder if Kahl remembers all the babygoths swooning over Mark (I
>> forget his last name) cause he was the eldergoff of the scene...
>> bloody heirarchies I always ignored them anyway :)
>
>Beaumont. Last I heard, he married Shari and they had a little wee
>gothling.
OMG not little Shari who used to have braces on her teeth and hovered
around everyone else like a bad smell???? :)
I suppose next you'll be telling me you remember Malcolm Hume as
well... I havent seen HIM in a long time ....
>lets never drink together and mention the 'C' word ;)
Oh come on, this SO has to happen ASAP ;)
Trayce (I should stop this, I'm sure most of ACG will killfile me soon
;P)
--
trace @ connect.net.au
http://people.connect.net.au/~trace
"This dark ceiling without a star" (Sylvia Plath)
Baralier
> The following forgery has been attributed to burn...@mullum.com.au:
> >> "I can still remember waking up one morning with the whole house
full of
> >> ferrets - singing! If only it wasn't the same tune over and over!"
> >>
> >> Baralier
> >> (John Clease rules!)
> >
> >Okay, I'll bite. It's a bloody familiar quote - which Python sketch
is
> >it from?
> >
>
> Hmmm...sounds more like I'm Sorry I'll Read That Again, to me...
*Ding*
Mr. Madi, you have won a Blow to the Head.
Baralier
(I need to find more epsiodes)
--
It may be that your sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning
to others.
http://www.eisa.net.au/~baralier/index.html
Co-ordinator :The Society of the Black Rose
Costumier & Reprobate
Letterbomb
wrote:
>>were after then?
>
>
>- Jojo (bourbon and coke, bourbon and coke, bourbon and coke..)
Two more reasons I love that club: it's got a happy hour, and there's
a water jug on the bar.
BIG points for the water jug.
Letterbomb
____________________________________________________________
Better the illusions that exalt us than ten thousand truths.
- Pushkin
ICQ: 16386278
miss alexandra
<snip>
> Not tall skinny geeky-gay Dean who used to go out with Nadine? Shit
> that would be scary.
*head falls off*
should we go any further... really?!
(yes. *THAT* dean! *THAT* nadine!)
I always found it funny that Deans dads name was Bruce. I also find it
funny that he nicknamed me 'trish' for no apparent reason. tho it may
have been 'trash' with a drunken slur...
> >jesus, IT WAS! i mean, the point about comparring gothfashion in
> >melbourne and in canberra - i remember a time when you used to have *at
> >least* 3 or 4 seperate independant purely goth storeholders and
> >designers @ gorman house markets - Christine, Kate and Sylvia leap to
> >mind.
>
> I was always scared of them three... they were like ubergoth snobs
> when I was a wee little girly ;)
Kate (guessing its the same one) lives around here now, and i am quite
close contact with her. You simply wouldn't recognize her. A veritable
sweetheart. And blonde hair, too!
> >> I wonder if Kahl remembers all the babygoths swooning over Mark (I
> >> forget his last name) cause he was the eldergoff of the scene...
> >> bloody heirarchies I always ignored them anyway :)
> >
> >Beaumont. Last I heard, he married Shari and they had a little wee
> >gothling.
>
> OMG not little Shari who used to have braces on her teeth and hovered
> around everyone else like a bad smell???? :)
Bingo!
> I suppose next you'll be telling me you remember Malcolm Hume as
> well... I havent seen HIM in a long time ....
i remember him vaguely, no idea whatever happened to him. last
time i saw him was boxing day 1991 or 92 - he was drunk in the 'miss
shop' section of grace brothers (WHY do i remember that? i dont know my
8 times tables, but i still can remember that...) *mutter*
Here's the big one, though - I have been asked this question a
lot lately, and its gotten me thinking:
what ever happened to Simon Trainer? [1]
> Trayce (I should stop this, I'm sure most of ACG will killfile me soon
> ;P)
we'll be killfiled together ;) is this endless
walking-down-mammary-lane the usenet equivalent of ritual
disembowelment?
alex
[1] make a good movie, that - Joan Crawford and Bette Davis would be
very well cast, though admittedly there performances now may be a little
lacklustre
miss alexandra
>
> miss alexandra <gei...@ihug.com.au> wrote :
<snip>
> > Beaumont. Last I heard, he married Shari and they had a little wee
> > gothling.
>
> Say it ain't so?
> Little thin Shari?
> Meeep.
*chuckles* that piece of news NEVER fails to get a reaction :) :)
> > > God... this is scaring me and I dont think I'll think about it
> > > anymore. ;P
>
> Erk. Right there with you.
>
> And definitely not mentioning the Rathdowne Six. Ever.
This adds a whole new dimension to 'freeing the rathdowne six'! maybe
we need to be free of it/them/us?!
> Solitaire (Dammit I moved here to get *away* from my past....)
i live too close to the Empress and go to Rev too often to be free of
Canberra ;)
alex
Thorfinn
miss alexandra <gei...@ihug.com.au> wrote:
> Trayce wrote:
> > Trayce (I should stop this, I'm sure most of ACG will killfile me soon
> > ;P)
Naah. :)
> we'll be killfiled together ;) is this endless
> walking-down-mammary-lane the usenet equivalent of ritual
> disembowelment?
Especially not if you're going to walk down mammary lane. OTOH, I'm
not sure what walking down mammary lane involves... presumably a lot
of cleavage diving?
Memory lane, OTOH, is a bit sickening, yeah. :)
ook,
Thorf
--
<a href = "http://tertius.net.au/~thorfinn/">thor...@tertius.net.au</a>
A gleekzorp without a tornpee is like a quop without a fertsneet (sort of).
-- BSD fortune file
Trayce
<gei...@ihug.com.au> scribbled hastily:
>
>(yes. *THAT* dean! *THAT* nadine!)
Nadine and I are still good buddies (not sure if she reads ACG... if
so... *wave wave*)
>
>Here's the big one, though - I have been asked this question a
>lot lately, and its gotten me thinking:
>
>what ever happened to Simon Trainer? [1]
AAAAAAAAghhhhhhhhhhh
you HAD to mention HIS name, now, didnt you!!!? He would indeed be
well played by Bette Davis, queen that he is ;) I havent seen him
since I left Canberra in 92. No great loss mind you ;)
All these people we both know and you dont know Robin or Leon who I
used to live with... bizarre...
Hmm maybe we should be taking this to email *smirk*
Trayce (thinking one of these days we will meet and just go "oh its
YOU!" and wonder what drugs we're both on)
Trajik
> Ammorata
>
>
> >
> Tragik, would I know you? I'm Gerard, the only asian goth
> in Canberra, and am often seen traversing the dancefloor
> in a single bound ... I DJ'd at the last Nexus I was at, which
> was .. umm ... December? (I haven't been around Canberra
> recently)
>
Don't think we have met, but you may remember me, mohawk that I cahnge
the colour of often, a few face piercings, and the work "Forsaken"
tattooed on the side of my head, computer bits all over the place..
will most likely see you at tommorow if you go..
Trajik
(also not a coffee drinker, but like to hang at essen.
>
>
--
"What I did was not for sexual pleasure.
Rather it brought me some peace of mind."
- Andrei Chikatilo
Ammorata
I say we make a law for compulsory water jugs ... I'd be willing to pay a
lawyer $400 *AND* let him jerk me around, if I could achieve that
Australiawide :)
~Ammorata
Ammorata
> Don't think we have met, but you may remember me, mohawk that I cahnge
> the colour of often, a few face piercings, and the work "Forsaken"
> tattooed on the side of my head, computer bits all over the place..
avaline? (sp?)
> will most likely see you at tommorow if you go..
nope, in Melbourne. shall be at Rev instead..
~Ammorata
solitaire
Ammorata <geg...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:38A228D2...@hotmail.com...
> Trajik,
>
> > Don't think we have met, but you may remember me, mohawk that I cahnge
> > the colour of often, a few face piercings, and the work "Forsaken"
> > tattooed on the side of my head, computer bits all over the place..
>
> avaline? (sp?)
Yes. Aveline:)
Kinda unmistakeable, neh?
>
> > will most likely see you at tommorow if you go..
>
> nope, in Melbourne. shall be at Rev instead..
Well, then we shall see you here:)
I'm the one in leather.
solitaire
solitaire
Madi <ma...@vurt.net> wrote :
>
> I'm the scrawny middle-aged one who says "cunt" a lot.
>
Don't you have a sister? with a penchant for Hawaiian shirts?
solitaire ( Not Longi. I want be absolutely clear about that.)
Madi
>>
>> nope, in Melbourne. shall be at Rev instead..
>
>Well, then we shall see you here:)
>I'm the one in leather.
I'm the scrawny middle-aged one who says "cunt" a lot.
-Madi (mud has been flung)
Hobbes
wrote:
>
>Interesting observation - while Canberra has vans which provide
>syringes for free next to electronically operated public toilets which
>ensure privacy and are also equipped with sharps disposal, Melbourne has
>public
>toilets with blue lighting that prevents one from seeing their own
>veins.
>Delighting contrast.
>
Bugger - I just wrote a long responce on this and then lost it, bloody
connection.
Stop me now!
Smith St has a traders action group that actively support the setting
up of a safe injecting facility to do something about the 'drug
problem'. Smith St action group also has a whole pile of dedicated
volunteers who hang around and hand out free syringes and get ppl to
sigh petitions, they also provide free tea, coffee and often food.
An outreach program excists where you can make a phone call and ppl
will delever free gear and pick up used fits to you.
A welfare organisation in the city has set up a safe injecting
facility. There have done all the research and studies, provided all
the staff with appropriate training and spent an huge amout of money
building and setting up a facility. Which they aren't allowed to use,
instead they have several junkies 'drop' from OD everyday on the
grounds, metres away from this life saving facility. Which they have
yet to get govt and police permission to open. Also they have huge
amounts of protest from a small local pressure group, who would rather
take the viewpoint 'not in our backyard' thanks, besides they are only
junkies - let them die.
The Bracks govt promised to immediately establish 5 safe injecting
facilities in Melbourne. Now they are elected the promised facilitiys
are 'potentials after proper studies have been done' So with research
and feasibility studies beginning anew, disguarding any previous work,
and the exsisitence of an extablished ready to go facility.
Of course, here in Melbourne we don't even have electricity
Canberra has porn, electricity and the right to grow dope in their
backyards. Oh and govt house is the biggest users of syringes in
Canberra.
And the blue lights in toilets - they don't work...
So what the fuck had two differents states attitude towards drug use
got to do with the goth scene??
Hobbes (fade to grey)
"We are all addicted to something stranger than ourselves" - Jeff Noon
Ammorata
> Yes. Aveline:)
> Kinda unmistakeable, neh?
*agreed*
especially when compared to other canberran folk
> >Well, then we shall see you here:)
> >I'm the one in leather.
now that doesn't really help at all ... not only do I know not
(a)what leather,
(b) if you are wearing all leather
(c) what colour or colours of leather
(d) or if you are male or female.
But maybe not knowing makes it all the more interesting...
Or maybe you hope I will be utterly inebriated,
and walk up to every single goth lass or lad and ask
if their a.c.g posting name is solitaire (which may end up
happening ... I shall be making a trip to dear Dan Murphys
this afternoon), possibly even committing the heinous
crime of mistaking PVC for leather :)
I know not what I shall be wearing ... however,
I should be distinguishable on the dancefloor
as I'll be wearing UV reactant nailpolish
~Ammorata
Hobbes
>On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 13:42:08 GMT, PyroJames <pyro...@my-deja.com>
>wrote:
>
>
>>>
>>> Neef(hey chief! It also says here that its illegal to put ferrets down
>>> your trousers for the purposes of gambling!)
>>
>I thought about getting one of the damn bloodsuckers...but I decided
>that there some things even *I* wont do......for a price..
>Getting a lawyer is one of them.
>
>Neef (up untill a while ago..that also included installing
>frontpage....)
>
I think I really gave up on Neef when I saw the front page cd on his
bed....
I could excuse everyting else
Hobbes (hmmm...lawyer or front page)
solitaire
Ammorata <geg...@hotmail.com> wrote :
sol >Well, then we shall see you here:)
sol >I'm the one in leather.
>
> now that doesn't really help at all ... not only do I know not
> (a)what leather,
> (b) if you are wearing all leather
> (c) what colour or colours of leather
> (d) or if you are male or female.
*grin*
It's a matter of some confusion, apparently.
(a) The kind that comes off dead cows? *serious* leather - none of your
poncing-about-fashion-accessory crap. We are talking a full dead cow or
more. Padded. And armoured. And ribbed ( tho for whose pleasure I have not
yet discovered...) You'll know it when you see it.
(b) See above. Note I don't say "I'm the one in mostly leather" or "I'm the
one in a lot of leather and a bit of other stuff." I am the one in LEATHER!
(c) Well, yeah. But "I'm the one in black" would be even less helpful:)
(d) Ask letterbomb.
>
> But maybe not knowing makes it all the more interesting...
>
*grin* Then I won't spoil the surprise.
> Or maybe you hope I will be utterly inebriated,
> and walk up to every single goth lass or lad and ask
> if their a.c.g posting name is solitaire (which may end up
> happening ...
*sigh* You evidently missed this thread. I've already pointed out that this,
tho twas indeed my fervent desire, has thus far failed dismally to come
about. I have dreams where Rev is full of hordes of BGT roaming the levels
seeking a leather clad moi, howling my nick in desperation. Then I wake up
screaming.
>
> I know not what I shall be wearing ... however,
> I should be distinguishable on the dancefloor
> as I'll be wearing UV reactant nailpolish
Pffft. And I'll be the one in black. This ain't Canberra any more,
Toto.*grin*
Asian bouncing Goffboi. And I already know Thorfy, so you'll be easy to
pick.
solitaire
Hobbes
wrote:
>Interesting observation - while Canberra has vans which provide
>syringes for free next to electronically operated public toilets which
>ensure privacy and are also equipped with sharps disposal, Melbourne has
>public
>toilets with blue lighting that prevents one from seeing their own
>veins.
>Delighting contrast.
>
I shouldn't, I wont, you can't make me, oh for goodness sake shut up
me.
Smith St has groups of ppl wandering around most nights handing out
clean syringes. Mind you, the public toilets are kind of grotty. THe
Needle Exchange runs an outreach program that delivers clean gear to
your door, and picks up used fits.
Several groups have spent most of the last year and longer fighting
for a Safe Injecting Facility. One has been built. It's clean,
functional, provides a canciling (don't know how to spell it) service
and also a nurse on site. All the research has been done, the
building and staff are in place.
Why hasn't this obviously beneficial resource been opened. Because a
small pressure group masquerading as 'concerned citizens' dont want
drug use in their backyard. In other words they don't give a fuck if
junkies jack up in back alleys and die, as long as they don't have to
watch. A life saving safe injecting facility might attract more
addicts to the area, and they don't want that. Fuckheads!
The new Bracks govt made an election promise to set up five safe
injecting facilities as soon as possibile on election. Of course, now
its under going an investigation process and feasibility study. bah.
Of course, here in Melbourne we don't even have electricity, so why
should I get angry about marginal pressure groups. bleah
As far as blue lighting in toilets goes - it doesn't work anyway.
Canberra has porn, fireworks and you're allowed to grow dope in your
back yard. Did you know the largest user of syringes in Canberra is
parliment house.
But the point being what does the difference in Canberra and
Melbounres approaches to Drug Use have to go with the goth scene???
Hobbes (fade to grey)
Barbarella
>
> On Tue, 08 Feb 2000 18:17:55 +1000, Neef <ne...@vurt.net> scribbled
> hastily:
> >Actually..I did my best to play some relatively different stuff this
> >time around.....people seemed to like it none the less...
>
> You played KLF and I was happy in my sweat soaked
> spazzmo-dance-enduced haze...
>
> and bugger all of youse, I'm not apologising for liking KLF!
You shouldn't have to.
KLF rock.
Barbarella - what time IS love? ;)
--
SarkyVegiPaganBiAustraPunkGothWriter
http://www.internettrash.com/users/barbarella
"Had I not been a writer, I could have been a faithful wife"
- Anais Nin.
Barbarella
> >
> > ... I'd absolutely
> > love to DJ at Revelations just because of the kind of freedom one has.
>
> Given my somewhat questionable status with said club atm, I suppose this has
> to be taken with a certain grain of salt, but ...
>
> It was much more free in the Level 1 days. In fact, I don't think I've ever
> seen such a good night as Rev @ Level1. Ever. IMHO, of course ... :)
Oh, it's not just your humble opinion, L. Happens to be mine, too.
:) Shall we share?
> > Subculture (aka Substandard): I enjoy this club, altho I do understand
> > why people call it Substandard. Bad ventilation. Too loud on the first
> > level. Crowded. Drinks too expensive. First floor plays same shit
> > every week.
> > Extremely commercialised. I mean they don't let you get a cup from the
> > bar so
> > you can drink water from a tap in toilets. They want to sell you water.
There's a very simple solution to this particular brand of bastardry,
Ammorata. Buy a can of beer at the beginning of the night. Drink it.
Take the can to the bathroom with you. Fill with water. Repeat over
course of evening.
Still sucks that we even have to do this. But there you have it.
Barbarella.
Morgan J
How can you go wrong with Illuminatus! fans?
Justified Ancients of MuMu my butt...
entrippy (kicking out the Jams)
Ammorata
i knew melbourne had free syringes too, but no where near as easily
obtainable
as in Canberra ... walk into our sterile city centre any night when there are
a
few people out, one will see the AIDS van next to electrical public toilet
...
I'm yet to see anyone handing out free syringes of varying sizes in Melbourne
city
~Ammorata
Kage-Ryu
inserted a refrigerator into their person and screamed:
>I'm yet to see anyone handing out free syringes of varying sizes in Melbourne
>
>city
You find them in between seats on trains.
Janie.
Ammorata
> >There's a very simple solution to this particular brand of bastardry,
> >Ammorata. Buy a can of beer at the beginning of the night. Drink it.
> >Take the can to the bathroom with you. Fill with water. Repeat over
> >course of evening.
the thought did cross my mind.
i did convince one bartender to give me a glass, but i put it down to
dance, and by my return, it had been efficiently taken away to be
cleaned cleaned cleaned ...
on the other hand, I shouldn't be whinging so much anyway,
I got on the guestlist so it didn't cost me anything to go in.
~Ammorata
Ammorata
> >I'm yet to see anyone handing out free syringes of varying sizes in Melbourne
> > city
>
> >You find them in between seats on trains.
and in trams too now that conductors are gone ... *smile*
~Ammorata
Baz Da Gough
>
>Madi <ma...@vurt.net> wrote :
>>
>> I'm the scrawny middle-aged one who says "cunt" a lot.
>>
>
>Don't you have a sister? with a penchant for Hawaiian shirts?
>
>
>solitaire ( Not Longi. I want be absolutely clear about that.)
>
>
Longi....
Long time no speak...it's not a penchant...it's a fetish.
Hawaiian Shirts are what the goth scene need, it throws...rather
forces a perspective of happiness on unsuspecting goths. Yes, I must
bring bright colours and offensive language to goth clubs...it is my
call to life, my raison d'etre, my lifeblood! And, tonight, just see
the power of my pastel filipino dress shirt!
Bring Light to the Goth Scene! Goths, unite, you have nothing to lose
save angst!
*BELCH*
Ba-Ba-Baz
Spark
Barbarella <barba...@internettrash.com> wrote in message
news:38A23087...@internettrash.com...
> >
> > It was much more free in the Level 1 days. In fact, I don't think I've
ever
> > seen such a good night as Rev @ Level1. Ever. IMHO, of course ... :)
>
> Oh, it's not just your humble opinion, L. Happens to be mine, too.
> :) Shall we share?
Can we? :)
Cue wobbly flashback/dream sequence:
Bunch of people who had no idea of what they were doing (and cared even
less) fumbling round with
a basic setup playing music they'd always wanted to hear on the dancefloor.
I nearly killed myself from dancing so much. Lot of dreams. Lot of things
like chess and drawing paper. Lot of alcohol. Real lot of alcohol. Lot of
wild and crazy, devil may care type goings on. I don't think I've ever had
so much fun in my life.
Level 1 was so small you barely had room to bitch. People came to catch the
no holds barred vibe, and that edge of craziness seemed to catch on in the
confines of the room. There was a _real_sense of unity that floated about,
and having the DJ booth right on the floor meant informal requests/abuse
ended up being shouted across the room.
Kelly (the barchick) would just keep giving us free alcohol all night (no
wonder the place folded), and
by 2 or 3 in the morning, we were all pretty much stinking drunk. A sort of
competition formed as to who could pull out the seediest, most tasteless
peice of shite music, and beyond 4:30-5:00 became known as the tasteless,
crappy part of the night. Someone brought in Hanson. Someone brought in
Billy Ray Cyrus. We didn't care, we still played it (and I've still got the
bruises) and people still danced. Not because they were good songs, but
because there was a sense of community that I'm yet to see repeated. For
once in my entire damn life I felt like I belonged somewhere, and beauty of
it was that every one else in the room did too.
There was nothing formal or structured about it at all. Around 7ish (give or
take), we'd officially close up, except for a few people who hung on. We'd
keep drinking, Cahl and I would chase each other round the room, and we'd
keep playing music. At around 9ish we'd stumble out into bright daylight
(latest we left was about 10:30ish), and try and make our way home via KFC.
*sigh*
Too many memories for one post (I may have to consult my diary). Cahl
getting hit on in the booth by two girls (he was running scared, oddly
enough), the drug fucked beefy guy who crawled under my feet to smash the
light with his bare hand (only to be forcibly thrown out by Kelly), running
round with a digital camera trying to catch every moment we could.
Ach, damn and blast I miss it.
L. (*sniffle*)
Photos from Level1 are now available at a higher res in about an 8meg file -
http://www.gothic.net.au/~entropy/level1.zip
--
http://revelations.gothic.net.au
http://www.gothic.net.au/~entropy
Fish gotta swim, birds gotta fly. I gotta live thrice more before I die.
Can't help living these nine lives 'o mine ......
Antti Roppola
hob...@labyrinth.net.au (Hobbes) did verily smite their keyboard thus:
>I think I really gave up on Neef when I saw the front page cd on his
>bed....
>
>I could excuse everyting else
He was listening to it. Thought it was techno.
>Hobbes (hmmm...lawyer or front page)
Antti
"It's the worst feeling in the world to love a song and then
discover that what they're singing about is lame" - Kristin Hersh
Kyoto
wrote:
>On Wed, 09 Feb 2000 19:48:00 +1100, miss alexandra
><gei...@ihug.com.au> scribbled hastily:
>>
>>(yes. *THAT* dean! *THAT* nadine!)
>eeeeeeeeeeeeeeek
>
>Nadine and I are still good buddies (not sure if she reads ACG... if
>so... *wave wave*)
She doesn't... but I read that out across the office and she cowered a
little..
Nadine says that she is curious as to whether Dean is dead yet..
Now she's making whimpering noises...
- Jojo (shoot the messenger!!!!! *holds out arm and waits*)
Kyoto
(Letterbomb) wrote:
>Two more reasons I love that club: it's got a happy hour, and there's
>a water jug on the bar.
>
>BIG points for the water jug.
Damn straight.. personally, I think they should be standard in every
pub/club... but we all know why they aren't..
Gives me a higher opinion of Rev.. seems that it's there to provide
people with a place to be sociable, have fun and drink, as opposed to
being out there for the cash.
Water jugs could make a good marketing ploy too...
"Come to the club that cares.. Free water and cucumber sandwiches"
- Jojo (I'll show you what to do with that cucumber, baybeee)
Kyoto
>In article <38A23114...@internettrash.com>, Barbarella wrote:
>>
>>You shouldn't have to.
>>
>>KLF rock.
>
>How can you go wrong with Illuminatus! fans?
>
>Justified Ancients of MuMu my butt...
No! MuMu -my- butt!!!
Garn!
- Jojo (lunch time special!)
Greylock
stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>> >BIG points for the water jug.
>
>I say we make a law for compulsory water jugs ... I'd be willing to pay a
>lawyer $400 *AND* let him jerk me around, if I could achieve that
>Australiawide :)
You would have to go state by state.
Club owners are wankers.
And, prepare yourselves, beer is up at least 7% under the GST (not sure
about spirits and wine).
----
"Me, I'd like to think that life is like a drink,
and I'm hoping that it tastes like bourbon".
Greylock
stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>I'm yet to see anyone handing out free syringes of varying sizes in Melbourne
So?
Why should the cunts who indulge in IV drug use be given anything for free,
except the electric chair.
Line the fuckers up along a pit and machine gun them all.
Can anyone honestly say society will be worse off? That it will cost
taxpayers more?
Greylock
<barba...@internettrash.com> did pack stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>Trayce wrote:
>> and bugger all of youse, I'm not apologising for liking KLF!
>
>
>You shouldn't have to.
Oh yes you should.
First IV drug users, then KLF fans.
del
Ammorata wrote:
> I may just prefer Nexus because as a DJ, you get better fringe
> benefits there ... when DJ'ing at Gypsy, basic beers still set
> you back $2.50 or so, but when DJing at Heaven, not only
> do you get a few free drinks (any three one desires) but
> quality (usually expensive) beverages - like heinekens or vodka pulps
> or stollis only set you back $2. yay! :)
actually, we get the same fringe benfits at Gypsy,
either the barstaff didn't know you were on that night,
or maybe you got one of the newbies they train occasionally.
del
del
Ammorata wrote:
> > > cause he was the eldergoff of the scene...
>
> the current elder has got to be Tim, somewhere in his 40s I'm guessing,
> who is either thoroughly despised or liked by various camps...
> its quite amusing.
>
i can't resist.
elder goth and old goth are not neccessarily the same thing.
T is somewhere in his thirties, and while that makes him the oldest, there are
people in Canb. who have been in the scene here for longer, or goths for
longer.
don't believe him when he rants that everyone here is a babygoth compared to
him.
i'll stop here as i think you've heard this one before ;P
but as an aside, if the topic was babygoths falling for eldergoths, i would
put forth young CK, as he had quite a following of adoring young girls at one
point :)
del
Ammorata
> >about spirits and wine).
7% in clubs/pubs/hotels I heard... yukky yukky .. tho in reality, thats only
gonna
be an extra 10/20/30cents, nothing painful. Predrinks will still remain the
best
option for myself ... I didn't stock up a fully equipped bar with a selection
of
each of my favourite spirits and liquers and beers for nothing :)
~Ammorata
Ammorata
> >elder goth and old goth are not neccessarily the same thing.
> >T is somewhere in his thirties,
late bloody thirties, the old bastard *laugh*
> >and while that makes him the oldest, there are
> >people in Canb. who have been in the scene here for longer, or goths for
> >longer.
agreed
>
> >don't believe him when he rants that everyone here is a babygoth compared to
> >him.
oh of course not lady shelle, i was just putting forth an example that i knew
I would fynd very amusing (and no doubt, other canberra goths that
know who i am pinpointing)
> but as an aside, if the topic was babygoths falling for eldergoths, i would
> put forth young CK, as he had quite a following of adoring young girls at one
> point :)
and still does? :)
~An Amused Ammorata
Spark
news:38b3e1e8...@news.wn.com.au...
.
>
> First IV drug users,
Yes.
> then KLF fans.
No.
L. (Short'n'sweet)
del
Ammorata wrote:
> > but as an aside, if the topic was babygoths falling for eldergoths, i would
> > put forth young CK, as he had quite a following of adoring young girls at one
> > point :)
>
> and still does? :)
i think they gave up.
it was pointed out to me that there aren't that many male goth-types in Canb. to
choose from if you're a young and nubile babygoth.
del
Morgan J
>On Thu, 10 Feb 2000 09:26:39 GMT, Ammorata <geg...@hotmail.com> did pack
>stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>
>
>So?
>
>Why should the cunts who indulge in IV drug use be given anything for free,
>except the electric chair.
>
>Line the fuckers up along a pit and machine gun them all.
>Can anyone honestly say society will be worse off? That it will cost
>taxpayers more?
Really not entering into this one, as I know you've got personal
experience here thats responsible for your point of view.
But Hayd*n?
Go fuck yourself.
entrippy (tired)
Kage-Ryu
inserted a refrigerator into their person and screamed:
>
>Why should the cunts who indulge in IV drug use be given anything for free,
>except the electric chair.
>
>Line the fuckers up along a pit and machine gun them all.
>Can anyone honestly say society will be worse off? That it will cost
>taxpayers more?
Mmmph, disagreed, except to say that those who are merely shooting up,
and otherwise not harming terribly badly anybody other than themselves
are sad, but ultimately it's their lives they're destroying and nobody
elses.
Though, IMHO, leaving syringes lying around is selfish and evil and
horrible. Nobody else needs to suffer because of them.
Moral of the story: Like in everybody else, some IV drug users suck,
some IV drug users are better. The ones that suck can, as far as I'm
concerned, be punished within the full extent of the law, and go
further, harsher penalties. Of course it's difficult to tell which is
which, and catching in the act is really hard.
Janie.
Antti Roppola
<d_tremens@h*tem*il.com> did verily smite their keyboard thus:
So shall we take up a collection to send Neef to Canberra?
Ordinarily I would selflessly volunteer my services, but have
prior commitments.
>del
Greylock
stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>>Line the fuckers up along a pit and machine gun them all.
>>Can anyone honestly say society will be worse off? That it will cost
>>taxpayers more?
>
>Really not entering into this one, as I know you've got personal
>experience here thats responsible for your point of view.
>
>But Hayd*n?
>
>Go fuck yourself.
Yet one more successful troll.
I was hoping to get a full thread, but a single response will do.
H*ydn: trollin'
adaptech premiere - any good?
del
Antti Roppola wrote:
> So shall we take up a collection to send Neef to Canberra?
i welcome any excuse to kidnap people here to provide us with variety.
> Ordinarily I would selflessly volunteer my services, but have
> prior commitments.
i think if things get bad we could always throw Calan at them and run, the time they
spend cooing over his hair would give us the lead we need :P
del
Morgan J
>On 12 Feb 2000 06:07:25 GMT, mor...@netizen.com.au (Morgan J) did pack
>stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>
>>>Line the fuckers up along a pit and machine gun them all.
>>>Can anyone honestly say society will be worse off? That it will cost
>>>taxpayers more?
>>
>>Really not entering into this one, as I know you've got personal
>>experience here thats responsible for your point of view.
>>
>>But Hayd*n?
>>
>>Go fuck yourself.
>
>Yet one more successful troll.
>I was hoping to get a full thread, but a single response will do.
You didn't get a full thread because we've had it before.
...
...
...
You're right. That has never stopped us before.
>H*ydn: trollin'
*sigh*
Why? We don't get enough regardless? Or is this a counter-troll troll?
You're just waiting for me to flame you for being a fuck-wit troll, so
you can turn around and say "Haha! Got you twice - you were trolled by
my counter troll!".
Things weren't exciting enough around here? You were getting bored?
Fucking hell, you're one of the few posters who's at least always got
*something* to say.
I do not understand trolling.
I don't understand the supposed glee that comes from being able to turn
around and say "Haha! Tricked you into giving a shit about a topic, and
stating your opinion, while I was just wanking! Ha! Don't you feel
stupid!"
I don't understand people who are more than willing to say things and
not stand by them. Saying "I was trolling!" seems to be an instant get
out of jail free card that invalidates anything you may have put forth.
Every word I've ever written, I'll stand by. I know that to be true of
most of the rest of the group, as well. I've had *ugly* wars of words
with Barbarella and Letterbomb, at the very least. They turned into
genuine friendship *because* we all stood by our words, and made an
attempt to explain why we said what we did. Understanding lead into
friendship. Thats why I've always loved this group - you can rely on
the people here.
I don't get it. And I'm far to tired to give a shit.
*plonk*
See you in a month.
entrippy (fed up)
Trayce
>Every word I've ever written, I'll stand by. I know that to be true of
>most of the rest of the group, as well. I've had *ugly* wars of words
>with Barbarella and Letterbomb, at the very least. They turned into
>genuine friendship *because* we all stood by our words, and made an
>attempt to explain why we said what we did. Understanding lead into
>friendship. Thats why I've always loved this group - you can rely on
>the people here.
<loud rounds of applause>
I love yoooooooo Morgan ;P
Trayce (shitstirrers inc)
--
trace @ connect.net.au
http://people.connect.net.au/~trace
"This dark ceiling without a star" (Sylvia Plath)
PyroJames
mor...@netizen.com.au (Morgan J) wrote:
> In article <38a7f8d0...@news.wn.com.au>, Greylock wrote:
> >On 12 Feb 2000 06:07:25 GMT, mor...@netizen.com.au (Morgan J) did
pack
> >stuff in boxes and exclaim:
> >
> >>>Line the fuckers up along a pit and machine gun them all.
> >>>Can anyone honestly say society will be worse off? That it will
cost
> >>>taxpayers more?
> >>
> >>Really not entering into this one, as I know you've got personal
> >>experience here thats responsible for your point of view.
> >>
> >>But Hayd*n?
> >>
> >>Go fuck yourself.
> >
> >Yet one more successful troll.
> >I was hoping to get a full thread, but a single response will do.
>
>
> I don't get it. And I'm far to tired to give a shit.
>
> *plonk*
>
> See you in a month.
>
> entrippy (fed up)
>
My feelings exactly. I'm just sorry that my server managed to....
Ah ha. Yes it lost it but I found it on my machine. So Hadyn:
Jesus Hadyn, did you get out of bed on the wrong side in some hic
country
town this morning?
What the fuck is so evil about IV drug use? What is wrong with providing
safe proceedures to help prevent additional health costs to the tax
payer?
Why not save the vitriol for nicotine addicts? Why such support for the
alcohol industry which has far higher health costs and criminal damage
costs
than IV drugs? Why kill the users and not the suppliers? Why limit
someones
recreational choice? Why try to kill people for trying to evade the
horrors
of society?
Fuck it, why not just lock up the popoulation in small rooms with a TV
and
keep them subdued? That would make society a better place wouldn't it?
PyroJames
Hydrogen - check, oxygen - check, mmixing - check, ignitor - check, just
firing up.
Even if you were trolling you have just managed to put yourself with
the rest of the bottom dwellers that inhabit usenet. Well done.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Greylock
stuff in boxes and exclaim:
Yes, but as they said, 'It's Time'.
>>H*ydn: trollin'
>
>*sigh*
>
>Why? We don't get enough regardless? Or is this a counter-troll troll?
My level of annoyance from the real world was boiling up, and it boiled
over with the original comments. Sometimes I just can't keep my mouth shut.
>You're just waiting for me to flame you for being a fuck-wit troll, so
>you can turn around and say "Haha! Got you twice - you were trolled by
>my counter troll!".
I'd not do that.
>Things weren't exciting enough around here? You were getting bored?
>Fucking hell, you're one of the few posters who's at least always got
>*something* to say.
>I do not understand trolling.
Trolling for responses. At present I'm getting sick and tired of people who
are complaining about being sick, a sickness they got from shooting up.
It's akin to 'Jonno', the 'lil Aboriginal kiddie who hung himself in gaol.
All the rhetoric is about how the "harsh, mandatory sentencing laws" killed
him.
Sorry, I'm with the Drivetime DJs here - he killed himself.
He tied the noose and jumped, as it here.
That's not to say it isn't sad, but he knew the consequences when he stole.
>I don't understand the supposed glee that comes from being able to turn
>around and say "Haha! Tricked you into giving a shit about a topic, and
>stating your opinion, while I was just wanking! Ha! Don't you feel
>stupid!"
Me either.
>I don't understand people who are more than willing to say things and
>not stand by them. Saying "I was trolling!" seems to be an instant get
>out of jail free card that invalidates anything you may have put forth.
But I do take a stand against IV drug use.
Sure, my language tends to be harsher, more violent than it needs to be -
but that's how I am in real life too.
>Every word I've ever written, I'll stand by.
I'll stand by the sentiment, but not the words.
I use language as I do to ps uh buttons, to force people to argue with me,
or rather to respond to me.
It's a habit I've acquired over the years.
In this case I wanted someone
Because, frankly, I'm getting tired of watching my words IRL because person
X or Y is doing Z.
soli...@lioness.tygger.net
>On 13 Feb 2000 06:58:04 GMT, mor...@netizen.com.au (Morgan J) did pack
>stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>>you can turn around and say "Haha! Got you twice - you were trolled by
>>my counter troll!".
>
>I'd not do that.
No? you did it the first time.
>
>
>Trolling for responses. At present I'm getting sick and tired of people who
>are complaining about being sick, a sickness they got from shooting up.
Yup. And you deal with it the same way you deal with anyone who's whinging
when you have no sympathy. Ignore them. Tell them to fuck off and leave you
alone. You don't "Line them up against the wall and shoot them". And you
don't make statements like that when you *know* it's going to piss people
off, and if you do, then as Morgan said, have the guts to stand by it.
>
>It's akin to 'Jonno', the 'lil Aboriginal kiddie who hung himself in gaol.
>All the rhetoric is about how the "harsh, mandatory sentencing laws" killed
>him.
>
>Sorry, I'm with the Drivetime DJs here - he killed himself.
>He tied the noose and jumped, as it here.
>
>That's not to say it isn't sad, but he knew the consequences when he stole.
My god. I of all people have precious little sympathy for suicide. But,
firstly, the mandatory sentences are, literally criminal. And it's pretty
much accepted that solitary imprisonment for Aboriginals is essentially a
death sentence. Christ. Have just a little compassion.
>
>>I don't understand the supposed glee that comes from being able to turn
>>around and say "Haha! Tricked you into giving a shit about a topic, and
>>stating your opinion, while I was just wanking! Ha! Don't you feel
>>stupid!"
>
>Me either.
*blink* Then why the *FUCK* did you do it??????
Troll was your own word, neh? or do you use it differently?
>
>>I don't understand people who are more than willing to say things and
>>not stand by them. Saying "I was trolling!" seems to be an instant get
>>out of jail free card that invalidates anything you may have put forth.
>
>But I do take a stand against IV drug use.
>Sure, my language tends to be harsher, more violent than it needs to be -
>but that's how I am in real life too.
Um. The point being, you were given a chance to stand by them, here, ( tho
I'll admit "Go fuck yourself" isn't regarded as a classic opening debate...)
and your response was
Haha, trolling, gotcha. Which is a copout.
>
>>Every word I've ever written, I'll stand by.
>
>I'll stand by the sentiment, but not the words.
>I use language as I do to ps uh buttons, to force people to argue with me,
>or rather to respond to me.
*click* consider my buttons pushed. And you think that's a *good* thing??
I know a hell of a lot of IV drug users. I'm kinda handy with a needle myself.
Grew up in Canberra, lost a brother to an OD. And very few of those friends
are or were *ever* any sort of drain on society, or bludgers, or the sad
pathetic whiners you make them out to be. Do *NOT* include my friends in your
generalisations. Do *not* tell me that those I love should be put up against
a wall and shot, for a victimless crime. And do *NOT* then hide behind
"trolling" as an excuse.
I responded to Morgan's flame/rant by sending him a private email telling
him he was a little over the top, and perhaps he should pull his head in.
Morgan?
Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. But you're still wrong, Morgan.
A month's too short.
solitaire (SERIOUSLY pissed off)
Greylock
shall be.
PyroJames said:
> Jesus Hadyn, did you get out of bed on the wrong side in some
hic country
>town this morning?
>What the fuck is so evil about IV drug use?
Specifically it’s heroin use, but rather than be accused of not
standing behind my position, I’ll extend it to all IV drug use:
It’s a personal thing, and the details are something I’ve
touched on before, and chose not to go into again, or in any
more detail.
>What is wrong with providing safe proceedures to
>help prevent additional health costs to the tax payer?
It’s an additional cost the system shouldn’t have to bare.
>Why not save the vitriol for nicotine addicts? Why such support
for the alcohol industry which >has far higher health costs and
criminal damage costs
Well, I’d be fighting a losing battle against smokers, and I
enjoy the odd drink (and the evil ones), so by arguing against
alcohol I’d reveal a great deal of hypocracy. That said, I do
think the world would be a better place without either - if a
little dull.
>than IV drugs? Why kill the users and not the suppliers? Why
limit someones
>recreational choice? Why try to kill people for trying to evade
the horrors
>of society?
It seems my use of harsh rhetoric has been taken more literally
than I had intended. Unless people can see me donning the
jackboots and firing up the ovens, I had hoped it would be
obvious the level of ferosity of my words would indicate my
disdain for IV drug use, and not some future platform on which
to lauch my political career.
I’m not an idiot, I know how many people here enjoy shooting up,
I know how many people I know do. I don’t have to like or
respect it, but obviously - since no one has been put in gaol
because of me, I have to tolerate it.
>Fuck it, why not just lock up the popoulation in small rooms
with a TV and
>keep them subdued? That would make society a better place
wouldn't it?
I suppose my biggest issue with IV drug use is that it
represents a symbolic barrier (for me) between recreational,
occaisonal use and regular use (perhaps some level of addiction).
While clearly I’m arguing unfamilar territory, my experince has
been that when people step over the line, and put the needle in
their arm they lose a sense of objectivity. It’s usually the
first sign of “going off the rails†(to some degree).
Need I repeat that’s my experience?
> PyroJames
> Even if you were trolling you have just managed to put
yourself with the rest of the bottom >dwellers that inhabit
usenet. Well done.
Hey man, that hurts. :(
And then, repeating his heroes mistake, H*ydn decided to engage
in a land war with Russia. In winter.
>>> you can turn around and say "Haha! Got you twice - you were
trolled by my counter troll!".
>>I'd not do that.
>No? You did it the first time.
Someone: Drug users need governemtn subsidation
Me: No, let’s shoot them.
Morgan(?): You suck man.
Me: <Explanation: Trolling for responses>
Yes, I did it the first time. I’m not counter-trolling.
>Yup. And you deal with it the same way you deal with anyone
who's whinging when you have >no sympathy. Ignore them. Tell
them to fuck off and leave you alone. You don't "Line them up
>against the wall and shoot them". And you don't make statements
like that when you *know* >it's going to piss people off, and if
you do, then as Morgan said, have the guts to stand by it.
As I said above, it’s harsh rhetoric.
Do I really strike you as the kind of person who would actively
support some kind of eugenics programme based on recreational
activities?
>My god. I of all people have precious little sympathy for
suicide. But, firstly, the mandatory >sentences are, literally
criminal.
That’s for the Federal Court to decide.
>And it's pretty much accepted that solitary imprisonment for
Aboriginals is essentially a death >sentence.
Why though?
It’s pretty much accepted that imprisonment and rehabiliation
programmes do little to rehabiliate offenders, but we still
offenders up?
>Christ. Have just a little compassion.
It would do me a world of harm as well. I still wouldn’t go
swinging from a rope. I don’t understand why there is a trend
for Aboriginals to hang themselves in custody, but it ultimately
comes down to choice.
Sure, there might be a better way of doing things, and sure,
there’s not enough flexibility in mandatory sentencing, but
ultimately if you commit the crime society should expect to see
you punished.
>*blink* Then why the *FUCK* did you do it?????? Troll was your
own word, neh? or do you >use it differently?
“Trolling for responses†. I wanted people to passionately defend
their choices.
I’d also had some bad news relating to this topic, so I brought
some of that anguish to bare.
I probably could have handled myself better, but what’s done is
done.
>Um. The point being, you were given a chance to stand by them,
here, ( tho I'll admit "Go fuck >yourself" isn't regarded as a
classic opening debate...) and your response was
>Haha, trolling, gotcha. Which is a copout.
Trolling, but genuinely interested in the reponses. It wasn’t a
hit’n’run “lets see how big I can make this thread†troll
(although, well, I was dissappointed I only received one
response)/
>click* consider my buttons pushed. And you think that's a
*good* thing??
> I know a hell of a lot of IV drug users. I'm kinda handy with
a needle myself. Grew up in >Canberra, lost a brother to an OD.
And very few of those friends are or were *ever* any sort of
>drain on society, or bludgers, or the sad pathetic whiners you
make them out to be. Do *NOT* >include my friends in your
generalisations.
I’m not quite sure how I might generalise without including you
or your friends, and I sure as hell don't know them, but a great
number of IV drug users *are* a drain on society, they are
health risks.
Maybe your friends are wonderful people who can afford their
habits, are totally safe.
Most won’t be.
>Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. But you're still wrong,
Morgan. A month's too short.
>solitaire (SERIOUSLY pissed off)
I might write a book: “How to make friends and influence people†.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
^DeBiBaT^
Greylock wrote:
> >And it's pretty much accepted that solitary imprisonment for
> Aboriginals is essentially a death >sentence.
>
> Why though?
Why, hayden?
heres a few suggestions as to* why*:
Aboriginals have been persecuted for the last 2 centuries. This much, I've no doubt,
you're aware of. The majority of aboriginals today, be it rural or urban, are
uneducated, have either an alcohol abuse problem or *gasp* an IV drug problem, and are
unemployed.
Heres two theories as to why imprisonment pushes some indiginous ppls to suicide.
a) <not so likely, but perhaps a contributing factor> Loss of hope.
While they are free, they can wish, cling to some shred of hope, that something will
get better, that they'll be given a job, or that something will change to better their
life/bring them happiness.
Once you've been convicted for any criminal offence, you're chances of *ever* getting
another job are NIL. Any hope of bettering your life at this point is destroyed.
Futility and despair are two emotions than can easily lead someone to take their own
life. Even if you don't personally know the force of these feelings, you have to accept
that as FACT.
When the emotional side of your brain has taken over, theres no way of recognising that
you only get one funeral. Because theres just no room for logic to cut in.
b) Withdrawal
If you know drug users/ addicts, you'll know emotionally unstable they are. When in
captivity and with no way to access their vices, anyone would go slightly bananas. And
as far as drug withdrawal is concerned, the chances of emotion over-riding logic are
even higher.
I shouldnt have to explain this further. It should be bloody self explanatory.
> It would do me a world of harm as well. I still wouldn’t go
> swinging from a rope. I don’t understand why there is a trend
> for Aboriginals to hang themselves in custody, but it ultimately
> comes down to choice.
I re-iterate. To make a rational decision the corresponding brain functions are
necessary.
And in certain cases not present.
> Sure, there might be a better way of doing things, and sure,
> there’s not enough flexibility in mandatory sentencing, but
> ultimately if you commit the crime society should expect to see
> you punished.
Oh for christs sake! In this particular instance the boy was gaoled for stealing
PENCILS.
And when you know the difference between right and wrong I'd say you were correct.
When something is a part of your lifestyle and learned behavior i'd say get a clue,
son.
DeB (and for tomorrows lesson...)
--
On a lighter note, allow me to pass you this metaphorical snorkel...
.... <hands over snorkel>...
You're obviously going to need it to help you breathe with your head shoved that far up
your arse.
-Barbarella
PyroJames
Disclaimer; I had to edit some of Hadyn's comments because every apostrophe
turned up as a string of garbage. There were some other strings which I
deleted and couldn't decipher.
Greylock <hydn242...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:1704ab33...@usw-ex0102-083.remarq.com...
> Disclaimer: I'm posting via RemarQ, so AOL style quoting it
> shall be.
>
> PyroJames said:
[snip]
>
> >What is wrong with providing safe proceedures to
> >help prevent additional health costs to the tax payer?
>
> It's an additional cost the system shouldn't have to bare.
Maybe so, but it's a lower cost than not providing the service and having to
deal with the consequences. There are many things that are additionasl costs
on the health system that shouldn't have to be borne, but generally it is
recognised that it's better to pay up front and limits the damage.
>
> >Why not save the vitriol for nicotine addicts? Why such support
> for the alcohol industry which >has far higher health costs and
> criminal damage costs
>
> Well, I'd be fighting a losing battle against smokers, and I
> enjoy the odd drink (and the evil ones), so by arguing against
> alcohol I'd reveal a great deal of hypocracy. That said, I do
> think the world would be a better place without either - if a
> little dull.
For IV drug users the same arguement can be used, "the world would be a
little dull". You are in effect saying you'll pick on what you see as the
easiest target, even though there is a similar parallel in your own life,
which you'll ignore, because it might make you hypocritical. I think you
have already done that. Condone one type of drug use and attack another
simply because you don't agreed with it is still hypocritical. If it wasn't
for the fact that IV drugs are illegal, they would be better regulated and
safer to use, in a similar manner to alcohol. The costs to society would be
far reduced, habits would be cheaper to support etc. The addiction would
still be a problem, but probably easier to deal with out in the open.
[snip]
>
> I'm not an idiot, I know how many people here enjoy shooting up,
> I know how many people I know do. I don't have to like or
> respect it, but obviously - since no one has been put in gaol
> because of me, I have to tolerate it.
>
Well tolerate it then. But if you come out with that kind of attitude in a
group of people which has a highish number of users it doesn't show much
tolerance or empathy with the group.
> >Fuck it, why not just lock up the popoulation in small rooms
> with a TV and
> >keep them subdued? That would make society a better place
> wouldn't it?
>
> I suppose my biggest issue with IV drug use is that it
> represents a symbolic barrier (for me) between recreational,
> occaisonal use and regular use (perhaps some level of addiction).
>
> While clearly I'm arguing unfamilar territory, my experince has
> been that when people step over the line, and put the needle in
> their arm they lose a sense of objectivity. It's usually the
> first sign of going off the rails (to some degree).
>
> Need I repeat that's my experience?
>
If it is a sign of someone "going off the rails" then you have practically
said, "let them go, they are out of societies hands. You want nothing to do
with them". Surely it has got to be better to give support to try to limit
the harm they are likely to do. If that is what you believe is happening.
It's a bit simplistic because you have thrown the whole group of IV users in
together. You'd probably be a bit upset if you where regarded in the same
way as an alcoholic who is intent on staying drunk 24 hours a day. Maybe
not. I would.
> > PyroJames
> > Even if you were trolling you have just managed to put
> yourself with the rest of the bottom >dwellers that inhabit
> usenet. Well done.
>
> Hey man, that hurts. :(
>
Like wise your comments on IV drug use, and you weren't even severly
provoked.
[snip]
This following bit goes a bit off topic but seems to show the same lack of
understanding as the above?
>
> >And it's pretty much accepted that solitary imprisonment for
> Aboriginals is essentially a death >sentence.
>
> Why though?
I won't try to explain it because I'd don't think I understand it well
enough, but I do accept that it's true, and I believe that I have a felling
for why. Simply becasue I don't understand it doesn't make me feel that it
is the rational choice of the Aboriginal.
>
> It's pretty much accepted that imprisonment and rehabiliation
> programmes do little to rehabiliate offenders, but we still
> offenders up?
>
Yes, of course, because we haven't come up with a better system. It
shouldn't stop us trying though.
> >Christ. Have just a little compassion.
>
> It would do me a world of harm as well. I still wouldn't go
> swinging from a rope. I don't understand why there is a trend
> for Aboriginals to hang themselves in custody, but it ultimately
> comes down to choice.
>
It comes from a lack of understanding of the situation. The belief that
there are no further options. All choices for you have been lost
irretrievably. So what choice do you have? You have the choice becasue you
see the rational choices, you understand the system, you haven'y seen the
older people in you family excluded from the main part of society for much
of their lives, you haven't seen you friend beaten upin custody by the
police, you have an entirely different social background and you can see
other choices.
> Sure, there might be a better way of doing things, and sure,
> there's not enough flexibility in mandatory sentencing, but
> ultimately if you commit the crime society should expect to see
> you punished.
>
Ultimately society wants crime to stop. Punishment is just perceived as the
best way to stop crime. Rightly or wrongly.
> >*blink* Then why the *FUCK* did you do it?????? Troll was your
> own word, neh? or do you >use it differently?
>
> Trolling for responses. I wanted people to passionately defend
> their choices.
> I'd also had some bad news relating to this topic, so I brought
> some of that anguish to bare.
>
> I probably could have handled myself better, but what's done is
> done.
>
Yes, you could have handled yourself better, and you certainly got
passionate responsed. If you go and spit in someone's face you'll probably
get a similar response.
[snip]
>
> I'm not quite sure how I might generalise without including you
> or your friends, and I sure as hell don't know them, but a great
> number of IV drug users *are* a drain on society, they are
> health risks.
>
> Maybe your friends are wonderful people who can afford their
> habits, are totally safe.
> Most won't be.
Users would be a bigger drain if not provided with help. Haven't I said that
before?
I have never kill-filed anyone Hadyn, but you came very fucking close,
becuase you _know_ the territory and you _still_ had blatant disregard for
the people here.
--
PyroJames
Oh right, you get the dwarves do you. Funny, I always seem to get
parachutists.
PyroJames
apostrophe
turned up as a string of garbage. There were some other strings which I
deleted and couldn't decipher.
Greylock <hydn242...@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:1704ab33...@usw-ex0102-083.remarq.com...
> Disclaimer: I'm posting via RemarQ, so AOL style quoting it
> shall be.
>
> PyroJames said:
[snip]
>
> >What is wrong with providing safe proceedures to
> >help prevent additional health costs to the tax payer?
>
> It's an additional cost the system shouldn't have to bare.
Maybe so, but it's a lower cost than not providing the service and
having to
deal with the consequences. There are many things that are additionasl
costs
on the health system that shouldn't have to be borne, but generally it
is
recognised that it's better to pay up front and limits the damage.
>
> >Why not save the vitriol for nicotine addicts? Why such support
> for the alcohol industry which >has far higher health costs and
> criminal damage costs
>
> Well, I'd be fighting a losing battle against smokers, and I
> enjoy the odd drink (and the evil ones), so by arguing against
> alcohol I'd reveal a great deal of hypocracy. That said, I do
> think the world would be a better place without either - if a
> little dull.
For IV drug users the same arguement can be used, "the world would be a
little dull". You are in effect saying you'll pick on what you see as
the
easiest target, even though there is a similar parallel in your own
life,
which you'll ignore, because it might make you hypocritical. I think you
have already done that. Condone one type of drug use and attack another
simply because you don't agreed with it is still hypocritical. If it
wasn't
for the fact that IV drugs are illegal, they would be better regulated
and
safer to use, in a similar manner to alcohol. The costs to society
would be
far reduced, habits would be cheaper to support etc. The addiction would
still be a problem, but probably easier to deal with out in the open.
[snip]
>
> I'm not an idiot, I know how many people here enjoy shooting up,
> I know how many people I know do. I don't have to like or
> respect it, but obviously - since no one has been put in gaol
> because of me, I have to tolerate it.
>
Well tolerate it then. But if you come out with that kind of attitude
in a
group of people which has a highish number of users it doesn't show much
tolerance or empathy with the group.
> >Fuck it, why not just lock up the popoulation in small rooms
> with a TV and
> >keep them subdued? That would make society a better place
> wouldn't it?
>
> I suppose my biggest issue with IV drug use is that it
> represents a symbolic barrier (for me) between recreational,
> occaisonal use and regular use (perhaps some level of addiction).
>
> While clearly I'm arguing unfamilar territory, my experince has
> been that when people step over the line, and put the needle in
> their arm they lose a sense of objectivity. It's usually the
> first sign of going off the rails (to some degree).
>
> Need I repeat that's my experience?
>
If it is a sign of someone "going off the rails" then you have
practically
said, "let them go, they are out of societies hands. You want nothing
to do
with them". Surely it has got to be better to give support to try to
limit
the harm they are likely to do. If that is what you believe is
happening.
It's a bit simplistic because you have thrown the whole group of IV
users in
together. You'd probably be a bit upset if you where regarded in the
same
way as an alcoholic who is intent on staying drunk 24 hours a day. Maybe
not. I would.
> > PyroJames
> > Even if you were trolling you have just managed to put
> yourself with the rest of the bottom >dwellers that inhabit
> usenet. Well done.
>
> Hey man, that hurts. :(
>
Like wise your comments on IV drug use, and you weren't even severly
provoked.
[snip]
This following bit goes a bit off topic but seems to show the same lack
of
understanding as the above?
>
> >And it's pretty much accepted that solitary imprisonment for
> Aboriginals is essentially a death >sentence.
>
> Why though?
I won't try to explain it because I'd don't think I understand it well
enough, but I do accept that it's true, and I believe that I have a
felling
for why. Simply becasue I don't understand it doesn't make me feel that
it
is the rational choice of the Aboriginal.
>
> It's pretty much accepted that imprisonment and rehabiliation
> programmes do little to rehabiliate offenders, but we still
> offenders up?
>
Yes, of course, because we haven't come up with a better system. It
shouldn't stop us trying though.
> >Christ. Have just a little compassion.
>
> It would do me a world of harm as well. I still wouldn't go
> swinging from a rope. I don't understand why there is a trend
> for Aboriginals to hang themselves in custody, but it ultimately
> comes down to choice.
>
It comes from a lack of understanding of the situation. The belief that
there are no further options. All choices for you have been lost
irretrievably. So what choice do you have? You have the choice becasue
you
see the rational choices, you understand the system, you haven'y seen
the
older people in you family excluded from the main part of society for
much
of their lives, you haven't seen you friend beaten upin custody by the
police, you have an entirely different social background and you can see
other choices.
> Sure, there might be a better way of doing things, and sure,
> there's not enough flexibility in mandatory sentencing, but
> ultimately if you commit the crime society should expect to see
> you punished.
>
Ultimately society wants crime to stop. Punishment is just perceived as
the
best way to stop crime. Rightly or wrongly.
> >*blink* Then why the *FUCK* did you do it?????? Troll was your
> own word, neh? or do you >use it differently?
>
> Trolling for responses. I wanted people to passionately defend
> their choices.
> I'd also had some bad news relating to this topic, so I brought
> some of that anguish to bare.
>
> I probably could have handled myself better, but what's done is
> done.
>
Yes, you could have handled yourself better, and you certainly got
passionate responsed. If you go and spit in someone's face you'll
probably
get a similar response.
[snip]
>
> I'm not quite sure how I might generalise without including you
> or your friends, and I sure as hell don't know them, but a great
> number of IV drug users *are* a drain on society, they are
> health risks.
>
> Maybe your friends are wonderful people who can afford their
> habits, are totally safe.
> Most won't be.
Users would be a bigger drain if not provided with help. Haven't I said
that
before?
I have never kill-filed anyone Hadyn, but you came very fucking close,
becuase you _know_ the territory and you _still_ had blatant disregard
for
the people here.
--
PyroJames
Oh right, you get the dwarves do you. Funny, I always seem to get
parachutists.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Greylock
pack stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>Disclaimer; I had to edit some of Hadyn's comments because every
>apostrophe turned up as a string of garbage. There were some other strings which I
>deleted and couldn't decipher.
They were probably commas or inverted commas.
OTOH, PJ sent two versions of the same post.
>> It's an additional cost the system shouldn't have to bare.
>
>Maybe so, but it's a lower cost than not providing the service and
>having to deal with the consequences. There are many things that are additionasl
>costs on the health system that shouldn't have to be borne, but generally it
>is recognised that it's better to pay up front and limits the damage.
Yes, but really. Why? I mean amphetamines fluctuate between $50 and $90 per
gram, and heroin can be anywhere up from that.
You're packing a huge sum of money for stuff all, and you can't afford top
get a fit pack for clean syringes? It boggles my mind.
>> Well, I'd be fighting a losing battle against smokers, and I
>> enjoy the odd drink (and the evil ones), so by arguing against
>> alcohol I'd reveal a great deal of hypocracy. That said, I do
>> think the world would be a better place without either - if a
>> little dull.
>
>For IV drug users the same arguement can be used, "the world would be a
>little dull". You are in effect saying you'll pick on what you see as
>the easiest target, even though there is a similar parallel in your own
>life, which you'll ignore, because it might make you hypocritical.
As I may have stated elsewhere my spite and vitriol were, in part, a case
of me throwing my hands in the air and telling people they should damn well
fuck off and die if they weren't prepared to take responsibility for their
own actions.
I did it here because I daren't IRL.
Perhaps I should. It might get the message through.
>I think you have already done that. Condone one type of drug use and attack another
>simply because you don't agreed with it is still hypocritical. If it
>wasn't for the fact that IV drugs are illegal,
The issue isn't the drugs (except heroin. That, as we have seen before
really pushes my buttons and is the cause of my spite), it's the injection
medium.
> they would be better regulated and safer to use, in a similar manner to alcohol.
Alcohol, as it exists, has its far share of problems. It is safe to use,
but most are unable to use it well - all of us at some time or another.
> The costs to society would be far reduced, habits would be cheaper to support etc.
> The addiction would still be a problem, but probably easier to deal with out in the open.
Something to think about I suppose. A world with legalised drug use is a
scary thought though. It's the illegality of drugs which prevents a lot of
people from "getting hooked" in the first place.
>Well tolerate it then. But if you come out with that kind of attitude
>in a group of people which has a highish number of users
It does surprise me, the number of IV users here.
Most people don't inject, full stop.
> it doesn't show much
>tolerance or empathy with the group.
If you can't scream on usenet, where can you scream? Where else can you let
your frustrations out?
>It's a bit simplistic because you have thrown the whole group of IV
>users in together. You'd probably be a bit upset if you where regarded in the
>same way as an alcoholic who is intent on staying drunk 24 hours a day. Maybe
>not. I would.
>> Hey man, that hurts. :(
>>
>Like wise your comments on IV drug use, and you weren't even severly
>provoked.
I was, by circumstance, and not here.
I have a volcanic temper for someone so quiet.
>[snip]
>
>This following bit goes a bit off topic but seems to show the same lack
>of understanding as the above?
Lack of understanding? Perhaps. I *did* assume the NT's mandatory
sentencing laws were the same as WA's, which the aren't. They're harsher.
But my point was largely the abrogation of responsibility from the
individual to the institution.
Certainly the NT's laws are, as we've seen recently, a little harsh - but I
can't see how some kind of mandatory sentencing laws can be entirely bad.
I've seen too many people get away with too much, seen them escape
punishment - everyone from young Aboriginal criminals to white collar
criminals.
>>
>> >And it's pretty much accepted that solitary imprisonment for
>> Aboriginals is essentially a death >sentence.
>>
>> Why though?
>
>I won't try to explain it because I'd don't think I understand it well
>enough, but I do accept that it's true, and I believe that I have a
>felling for why. Simply becasue I don't understand it doesn't make me feel that
>it is the rational choice of the Aboriginal.
Perhaps they should take extra steps to stop hangings?
It's not just the mandatory sentencing that's causing these deaths in
custody, it's not just the drunks, either.
I've seen a genuinely dangerous prisoner hang himself (well, I didn't
witness the act)... you can't not imprison people because they *might* hang
themselves.
>Yes, of course, because we haven't come up with a better system. It
>shouldn't stop us trying though.
There was the idea of allowing NT tribes administer justice, but in some
cases the penalties were rather barbaric compared to ours.
Which would you prefer to see?
>It comes from a lack of understanding of the situation. The belief that
>there are no further options. All choices for you have been lost
>irretrievably. So what choice do you have? You have the choice becasue
>you see the rational choices, you understand the system, you haven'y seen
>the older people in you family excluded from the main part of society for
>much of their lives, you haven't seen you friend beaten upin custody by the
>police, you have an entirely different social background and you can see
>other choices.
True. I'm white, middle class and all those wonderful things.
But you can't generalise in these issues. I've seen enough young aboriginal
criminals (1), across the scale from those with deadbeat parents (think TV
cliche aboriginal) to decent, hardworking types. Yes, I've seen *x* kids as
well. I know people who are social workers to these kids. I know the cops
who arrest them, the MOJ officials who deal with them, the ALS lawyers who
have to pick up the pieces, who have to get these kids out of detention.
I'm familiar enough with the circumstances and the system to have a decent
idea of what I'm talking about.
The simple fact is most of these kids treat the whole thing as a joke,
whether it be the usual moronic teenage rebellion, or some 'Stick Whitey'
attitude.
There won't be gains until society changes, but until then young criminals,
abr or otherwise, need to be taught lessons.
Arguing that mandatory sentencing kills doesn't make sense.
>Ultimately society wants crime to stop. Punishment is just perceived as
>the best way to stop crime. Rightly or wrongly.
Works for me.
>Yes, you could have handled yourself better, and you certainly got
>passionate responsed. If you go and spit in someone's face you'll
>probably get a similar response.
I know.
Sometimes the turkeys do get you down.
>Users would be a bigger drain if not provided with help. Haven't I said
>that before?
Maybe up the top somewhere. I just don't see why they can't pay for their
own needles. It's taking responsibility for your own actions.
>I have never kill-filed anyone Hadyn, but you came very fucking close,
>becuase you _know_ the territory and you _still_ had blatant disregard
>for the people here.
Sometimes I need to feel hated.
Fuck knows why.
Valeskah
Greylock wrote in message <38aecafc...@news.wn.com.au>...
>It does surprise me, the number of IV users here.
>Most people don't inject, full stop.
maybe it's a perth thing?
i know one single person here, only an aquaintance, who IV's regularly.
for the record, i am disapproving of IV users too, but mayhap thats because
i have a big thing against needles in general, no matter what theyre used
for, on whom.. (you should see me at the dentist! ack!)
anyhoo..
--
valeskah @ gothic . net . au
icq# 6120743
PyroJames
Hyd...@hotmail.gov wrote:
> On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:51:22 GMT, PyroJames <pyro...@my-deja.com>
did
> pack stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>
> >Disclaimer; I had to edit some of Hadyn's comments because every
> >apostrophe turned up as a string of garbage. There were some other
strings which I
> >deleted and couldn't decipher.
>
> They were probably commas or inverted commas.
> OTOH, PJ sent two versions of the same post.
>
know that things sent acg via my server go no further, and deja bombed
as I sent, it got sent again. Sorry.
[snip]
>
> Yes, but really. Why? I mean amphetamines fluctuate between $50 and
$90 per
> gram, and heroin can be anywhere up from that.
>
> You're packing a huge sum of money for stuff all, and you can't
afford top
> get a fit pack for clean syringes? It boggles my mind.
>
Becuase if you have just desperately tried to scrape together all that
cash to get a fix, the last thing you are going to do is try to scrape
together some more for clean needles. Perhapes the cost should be taken
by the dealer, after all the're the ones making the huge profit right?
(No I'm not serious)
[snip]
> As I may have stated elsewhere my spite and vitriol were, in part, a
case
> of me throwing my hands in the air and telling people they should
damn well
> fuck off and die if they weren't prepared to take responsibility for
their
> own actions.
>
> I did it here because I daren't IRL.
> Perhaps I should. It might get the message through.
The problem that I have with this is not all IV users fall under the
generalisations that you have suggested. I agree that those who have
control of their IV use should probably pay their way for needles, but
I don't see that you can issue needles to those that need them and not
to the others. But as far getting people to take responsibility for
thier actions, it's this rational choice thing again. If the person is
not capable of making a rational choice, then support them in whateer
way you can don't just forget about them. You would do that to
schitzophrenics etc, why to it to heroin IV users.
[snip]
> > The costs to society would be far reduced, habits would be cheaper
to support etc.
> > The addiction would still be a problem, but probably easier to deal
with out in the open.
>
> Something to think about I suppose. A world with legalised drug use
is a
> scary thought though. It's the illegality of drugs which prevents a
lot of
> people from "getting hooked" in the first place.
>
I agree to some extent, but if it was legal, the initial use would
possibly be out in the open and more controlled by peers. Not sure
about that really.
The cost would be far less. It would cost about $1000 a year to provide
pure heroin to an addict, probably less than you spend on alcohol. If
you take the crime that occurs to support a habit the cost is huge and
wasteful. $500 video stolen, $50 cash for the addict, damages and
stereo replacement for society.
> >Well tolerate it then. But if you come out with that kind of attitude
> >in a group of people which has a highish number of users
>
> It does surprise me, the number of IV users here.
> Most people don't inject, full stop.
Most maybe not, but still a lot.
> > it doesn't show much
> >tolerance or empathy with the group.
>
> If you can't scream on usenet, where can you scream? Where else can
you let
> your frustrations out?
>
Scream for sure, heroin addiction worries the hell out of me, but I
wouldn't give up on people because of it. Scream for help to solve the
problem, but I don't think abandoning people is the way to do that.
[snip some stuff that is getting a little OT]
> >I have never kill-filed anyone Hadyn, but you came very fucking
close,
> >becuase you _know_ the territory and you _still_ had blatant
disregard
> >for the people here.
>
> Sometimes I need to feel hated.
> Fuck knows why.
>
Come on man, hated by everyone? There must be enough people out there
hating you without getting everyone here involved as well. I know there
are for me.
--
PyroJames
Must get new sig.file.
Hobbes
wrote:
>On Wed, 16 Feb 2000 09:51:22 GMT, PyroJames <pyro...@my-deja.com> did
>pack stuff in boxes and exclaim:
>
Okay, I promised mysefl I was going to stay out of this one, I really
did. *sigh* fuck this morality shite, the bggest problem with drugs
today is the need to educate. The need to educate users in methods of
safe use and methods of dealing with habits and withdrawals and that
sort of thing. The need to educate the media, so it doesn't blow
everything out of proportion with sensationalist bullshit, that only
does more damage, and sucks people in to believing crap. And the need
to educate the general populas about drugs. They aren't a big scary
bogeyman that society makes them out to be. And the attitudes of the
public are not based on real evidence, they are based on a few
negative examples, and sensationalised essays, and fear. Fear of the
Unknown, and the prophaganda that drugs are evil spread by the govt in
order to distract ppl from the real issues.
>>> It's an additional cost the system shouldn't have to bare.
>>
>>Maybe so, but it's a lower cost than not providing the service and
>>having to deal with the consequences. There are many things that are additionasl
>>costs on the health system that shouldn't have to be borne, but generally it
>>is recognised that it's better to pay up front and limits the damage.
>
>Yes, but really. Why? I mean amphetamines fluctuate between $50 and $90 per
>gram, and heroin can be anywhere up from that.
The amph prices are correct, a g is good for a couple of hits at
least, for most users. Heroin retails from anywhere from $10 - $40 a
cap. Depending on availiblity (at least in Melb) The average price
around $25. First of all, if you are going to pretend you know what
you are talking about, double check your facts.
>
>You're packing a huge sum of money for stuff all, and you can't afford top
>get a fit pack for clean syringes? It boggles my mind.
Interesting side note - many dealers actually hand out clean syringes
with deals.
Point - all capital cities provide Needle Exchange facilities, and
many chemists sell them. Many places also prove Outreach programs,
were a phone call will get syringes delivered to you.
many phamarcies also sell syringes.
If you've ever wondered why one of the main reasons you see so many
syringes left lying around in gutters and whatnot (yes, something I
cant stand, and we keep a sharps container in our laundry for
disposing ones left in the street). This is a relatively recent
problem. 10 years ago, you never saw anything like the number of
syringes lying around. THis is not increase in herion use, its
increase in the availibility of syringes. Syringes are so easy to
get, you don't have to hoard them and reuse them and reuse them
anymore.
Why the story - I don't get the point your trying to make, nor can I
see its validilty.
>
><snip lots>
>
>> The costs to society would be far reduced, habits would be cheaper to support etc.
>> The addiction would still be a problem, but probably easier to deal with out in the open.
>
>Something to think about I suppose. A world with legalised drug use is a
>scary thought though. It's the illegality of drugs which prevents a lot of
>people from "getting hooked" in the first place.
There is no evidence at all ever to support this at all.. In fact,
there is evidence that supports the very opposite.
Many injectable drugs were first introduced during war times and
freely given to soldiers, who then had to deal with the fact the had
developed an addiction once they were removed from their supply.
Look at countrys like Amsterdam. Look at countries were useful safe
injecting facilities have been put in place, and decently funded rehab
facilities, and things like medical trials and all that. Now compare
to country like America with its zero tolerance laws and see who has a
bigger population with addicts and a bigger problem.
Legal regulated drugs and proper education would probably prevent a
lot of serious problems you get with a black market illegal system.
At the very least you could guarantee the quality of the drugs.
Given this thread started with a Canberra Melbourne comparision, I'll
bring one back in. Canberra has a remarkable attitude towards drug
use, provdiing safe injecting facilities (abiet unofficail ones) and
far less of a drug problem, then say melb, especailly Russel St in the
City and Smith St in Fitzroy. There are people in Melb who want to
start running injecting facilities.
Its not abouting encoraging drug use, its about saving lives. And
every life is precious. Don't forget that hayd*n. Every life! Those
'junkies' you are so happy to shoot, are real people, with real lifes,
with real problems. Problems that could be solved in a more
permissive society.
Zero tolerance *does not work*, its time to start investigating other
options.
>>Well tolerate it then. But if you come out with that kind of attitude
>>in a group of people which has a highish number of users
>
>It does surprise me, the number of IV users here.
>Most people don't inject, full stop.
Where the fuck are you getting your information and forming your
assumptions???
One final story. I have a friend who works doing Outreach (a program
were people deliver syringes to users and take away dirty ones)
Outreach delivers to your poorest most pathetic junkie on the street,
right through the whole range of ppl, from every different backgound,
class and walk of life, to some very rich famous ppl. Often in the
course on one evening.
Don't make assumptions.
>>Like wise your comments on IV drug use, and you weren't even severly
>>provoked.
>
>I was, by circumstance, and not here.
>I have a volcanic temper for someone so quiet.
>
I promised myself I wouldn't reply to this thread. becasue I know its
a topic that gets people angry. But The need to attempt something is
greater than the need to sit quietly by and watch.
You know, we left the front door open last nite, and someone who was
very sick wandered in off the street into our lounge room and scared
us both. He asked for panadol.
We could of got all self rightous about him being in our house, we
could of told him to piss off and get the fuck out of our house.
Given the proximity to Smith St, making the assumption he was a junkie
would have been easy. But then again he could have just been really
sick and needed help.
We gave him panadol, and offered to walk him to the hospital. If I
had of had a car i would of drove.
Action is often a lot harder than inaction, but my conscience won't
let me ignore a problem.
Hobbes (borrowing neef's angry young man hat)
"We are all addicted to something stranger than ourselves" - Jeff Noon
Hobbes
wrote:
>On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 03:39:42 GMT, hob...@vurt.net (Hobbes) did pack stuff
>in boxes and exclaim:
>
>
>>This is not increase in herion use, its
>>increase in the availibility of syringes. Syringes are so easy to
>>get, you don't have to hoard them and reuse them and reuse them
>>anymore.
>
>Surely that would almost support my original point that maybe the
>government shouldn't be handing out syringes willy nilly?
>
Its a health measure, its a safety factor - its a gesture that is
saving lives, not encoraging heroin addiction. Addicts are going to
use whether they can get free syringes or not. Making them easier to
get makes it safer. And on that note - Needle Exchanges hand out free
condoms as well, as do most universities and sexual health centres.
Condoms save lives and prevent risk of spreading disease, as do clean
syringes, you wouldn't reuse a condom :). I believe both condoms and
needles should be freely availible.
>>Its not abouting encoraging drug use, its about saving lives. And
>>every life is precious. Don't forget that hayd*n. Every life!
>
>Every life? Can't say I agree with that.
>And, no, I'm not overly supportive of the death penalty because of the
>potential for mistakes.
>
I guess we will just have to disagree with that one. I believe every
life is worth something.
>>
>>Zero tolerance *does not work*, its time to start investigating other
>>options.
>
>I doubt there is much evidence to support the idea that complete tolerance
>will. Societies create problems.
>
I'm not nessesarily advocating complete tolerance. I am advocating
reform and education programs that may do something to help relieve
this dreadful problem of heroin addiction. A fact that may interest
you, safe injecting facilities are aimed at hard core users and
serious addicts. Casual or Recreational IV drug users are not
encoraged to use these facilities. They are working towards solving a
problem, not creating one.
>>We could of got all self rightous about him being in our house, we
>>could of told him to piss off and get the fuck out of our house.
>
>Which, in the unlikely event I ever left the front door open, would have
>been my reaction I suspect. Having not been in that situation It's hard to
>say.
>
You know, despite the fact we live just around the corner from Smith
St, I feel pretty safe in our house. And we often leave the front
door open (just the screen door closed) on hot days, as it allowed the
wind and air to move through the house, of course someone is
downstairs while the door is open. And we have never really had a
problem until the other nite, despite our proximity to 'the scary big
smack problem' on Smith St, we get more annoyed by our neighbours than
random junkies. I see helping the sick guy that wandered in, the same
as helping up someone who trips over in the street. Mind you, most
people ignore that as well.
Why are people so reluctant to help strangers?
Hobbes (take more drugs, it makes society seems less evil)
Greylock
>On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:20:44 GMT, Hyd...@hotmail.gov (Greylock)
>wrote:
>>
>>Surely that would almost support my original point that maybe the
>>government shouldn't be handing out syringes willy nilly?
>>
>Its a health measure, its a safety factor - its a gesture that is
>saving lives, not encoraging heroin addiction. Addicts are going to
>use whether they can get free syringes or not. Making them easier to
>get makes it safer. And on that note - Needle Exchanges hand out free
>condoms as well, as do most universities and sexual health centres.
D'oh!
And someone could have told me this in university?
>Condoms save lives and prevent risk of spreading disease, as do clean
>syringes, you wouldn't reuse a condom :).
It's possible.
>>Every life? Can't say I agree with that.
>>And, no, I'm not overly supportive of the death penalty because of the
>>potential for mistakes.
>>
>I guess we will just have to disagree with that one. I believe every
>life is worth something.
Not being in the mood for this debate, there are many people who, quite
simply, have, through their actions, given up their right to breathe, if
not enjoy a torture free existence.
>>Which, in the unlikely event I ever left the front door open, would have
>>been my reaction I suspect. Having not been in that situation It's hard to
>>say.
>>
>You know, despite the fact we live just around the corner from Smith
>St, I feel pretty safe in our house. And we often leave the front
>door open (just the screen door closed) on hot days, as it allowed the
>wind and air to move through the house, of course someone is
>downstairs while the door is open. And we have never really had a
>problem until the other nite,
You're lucky.
Having been involved in the periphery of law enforcement, I've heard the
horror stories that come from leaving doors unbolted.
>despite our proximity to 'the scary big
>smack problem' on Smith St, we get more annoyed by our neighbours than
>random junkies.
Strange neighbours are, by definition, annoying.
I live down the road from a drying out centre for strange old men.
I'm afraid to turn my back on them.
> I see helping the sick guy that wandered in, the same
>as helping up someone who trips over in the street. Mind you, most
>people ignore that as well.
Did he knock?
>Why are people so reluctant to help strangers?
They are, by definition, strange.
>Hobbes (take more drugs, it makes society seems less evil)
Doesn't it just make society bounce more?
----
H*ydn
"beauty ends in decay, even in a particle accelerator."
- St Albatross
Hobbes
wrote:
>Last episode hob...@vurt.net (Hobbes) said:
>
>>On Fri, 18 Feb 2000 09:20:44 GMT, Hyd...@hotmail.gov (Greylock)
>>wrote:
>>>
>>>Surely that would almost support my original point that maybe the
>>>government shouldn't be handing out syringes willy nilly?
>>>
>>Its a health measure, its a safety factor - its a gesture that is
>>saving lives, not encoraging heroin addiction. Addicts are going to
>>use whether they can get free syringes or not. Making them easier to
>>get makes it safer. And on that note - Needle Exchanges hand out free
>>condoms as well, as do most universities and sexual health centres.
>
>D'oh!
>And someone could have told me this in university?
>
hehe - see paying attention is useful :) I've never paid for condoms,
and I think that is a good thing....Unless you count that horrid thing
that Madi got in Yass - advertised "If she's a moaner this will make
her a screamer, if she'd a screamer this will get you arrested"
I don't know...
>
>>Condoms save lives and prevent risk of spreading disease, as do clean
>>syringes, you wouldn't reuse a condom :).
>
>It's possible.
>
It's possible syringes save live, or its possible that you would reuse
a condom?? :)
>>>Every life? Can't say I agree with that.
>>>And, no, I'm not overly supportive of the death penalty because of the
>>>potential for mistakes.
>>>
>>I guess we will just have to disagree with that one. I believe every
>>life is worth something.
>
>Not being in the mood for this debate, there are many people who, quite
>simply, have, through their actions, given up their right to breathe, if
>not enjoy a torture free existence.
>
Not in the mood for it either
>
>> I see helping the sick guy that wandered in, the same
>>as helping up someone who trips over in the street. Mind you, most
>>people ignore that as well.
>
>Did he knock?
apparently...but if it was on the screen door, its highly likely we
would not of heard.
>
>>Why are people so reluctant to help strangers?
>
>They are, by definition, strange.
hmm... not sure I like that theory.....its a theory tho
>
>>Hobbes (take more drugs, it makes society seems less evil)
>
>Doesn't it just make society bounce more?
Depends on the drug :) Sometime it makes for pretty coloured society
:)
Hobbes (is anyone else thinking we should rename this thread)
Greylock
>>Not being in the mood for this debate, there are many people who, quite
>>simply, have, through their actions, given up their right to breathe, if
>>not enjoy a torture free existence.
>>
>Not in the mood for it either
Yay apathy!
Let's just pretend I beat you into submission with my well-reasoned
arguments. :)
Hobbes
wrote:
>Last episode hob...@vurt.net (Hobbes) said:
>
>>>Not being in the mood for this debate, there are many people who, quite
>>>simply, have, through their actions, given up their right to breathe, if
>>>not enjoy a torture free existence.
>>>
>>Not in the mood for it either
>
>Yay apathy!
>
>Let's just pretend I beat you into submission with my well-reasoned
>arguments. :)
>
Hang On....I'm not letting you win that easily.....ummm....you suck!
:) and yer spelling is atrocious as well....
nah really couldn't be bothered
Hobbes (I win tho!)