Facing the Music
Cam
Facing the Music
Rock stars and music-industry execs once ruled the earth, but now --
in terms of size and profit margins -- the music industry is becoming
the book business (minus the literacy).
http://www.newyorkmag.com/page.cfm?page_id=6099
Very interesting and candid observations on the current state of the
music and radio industry. Worth checking. Work friendly.
Cam
____________________________________________________________
Website: www.cameron-rogers.com
I am not a gun.
David W.
Cam wrote:
>
> Facing the Music
> Rock stars and music-industry execs once ruled the earth, but now --
> in terms of size and profit margins -- the music industry is becoming
> the book business (minus the literacy).
>
> http://www.newyorkmag.com/page.cfm?page_id=6099
>
> Very interesting and candid observations on the current state of the
> music and radio industry. Worth checking. Work friendly.
Intersesting. Can't say I'll be weeping too many
tears if record execs suddenly can't afford coffee
tables full of coke.
But it raises the interesting question: if the major
labels took a dive, would that effect independant
bands and distributors?
David W.
Cam
wrote:
>But it raises the interesting question: if the major
>labels took a dive, would that effect independant
>bands and distributors?
My first hunch would be that it'd shake all things down to a common
level, and from that certain types of music and bands would rise above
others. Eventually we might get back to something similar to what
we've got now, where mediocrity rules. (shrug) Not sure. But I like
the idea of a world where musicians make music for the love of music,
and 'performers' get far less publicity.
David W.
Cam wrote:
>
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 16:19:42 +1000, "David W." <dav...@gothic.net.au>
> wrote:
> >But it raises the interesting question: if the major
> >labels took a dive, would that effect independant
> >bands and distributors?
>
> My first hunch would be that it'd shake all things down to a common
> level, and from that certain types of music and bands would rise above
> others. Eventually we might get back to something similar to what
> we've got now, where mediocrity rules. (shrug) Not sure. But I like
> the idea of a world where musicians make music for the love of music,
As in many situations, I am reminded of a quote
from Grant Morrison's "The Invisibles":
"They put drum machines in the trainers.
No more rock stars. No more DJs. Just the
sound of kids dancing themselves deaf until
dawn."
> and 'performers' get far less publicity.
You're just jealous that rock stars get more chyx than writers.
For what it's worth, my personal suspicion is that if the
major labels went broke, independant music would pretty
much survive as it is, held together by small but loyal
bands of followers.
(Mind you, I also think the idea that music should be free
and bands make their money from the merchandising is bunk.
I own over 200 CDs.I own 3 band t-shirts.)
David W.
Cam
wrote:
>Cam wrote:
>> My first hunch would be that it'd shake all things down to a common
>> level, and from that certain types of music and bands would rise above
>> others. Eventually we might get back to something similar to what
>> we've got now, where mediocrity rules. (shrug) Not sure. But I like
>> the idea of a world where musicians make music for the love of music,
>
>As in many situations, I am reminded of a quote
>from Grant Morrison's "The Invisibles":
>
>"They put drum machines in the trainers.
> No more rock stars. No more DJs. Just the
> sound of kids dancing themselves deaf until
> dawn."
HA! That's brilliant.
>> and 'performers' get far less publicity.
>
>You're just jealous that rock stars get more chyx than writers.
No no no. Reread what I said: where musicians make music for the
love of music and 'performers' get less publicity. A little opaque
I'll admit, but in my view a performer is someone like, say, Spears or
Minogue who get their music from a songbank and spend more time
crafting their look, their image, their moves, their clips and their
shows than they do on singing ('producers with computers fix all my
shitty tracks'), let alone actually writing anything or having
anything to say.
In my view a musician is a different animal: someone with something to
say and his career is all about saying it and saying it well. Spears
and Cave, worlds apart.
>For what it's worth, my personal suspicion is that if the
>major labels went broke, independant music would pretty
>much survive as it is, held together by small but loyal
>bands of followers.
Take away commercial music as it is, and what is currently independant
would rush to fill the vacuum. And whatever scored the most listeners
would become the new 'commercial'.
>(Mind you, I also think the idea that music should be free
>and bands make their money from the merchandising is bunk.
>I own over 200 CDs.I own 3 band t-shirts.)
I'd agree. As someone whose career would become unsustainable if hit
by widescale piracy, how can I not?
jarod
> say and his career is all about saying it and saying it well. Spears
> and Cave, worlds apart.
because cave... [i believe now on a major, been on a big label for long
time] still has something to say.
honest.
- jarod
--
GROUND UNDER PRODUCTIONS
goth-industrial-electronic
online mail-order + label
www.gup.net.au
www.tankt.com.au
jarod
> from Grant Morrison's "The Invisibles":
>
> "They put drum machines in the trainers.
> No more rock stars. No more DJs. Just the
> sound of kids dancing themselves deaf until
> dawn."
resurrection eve extensively use a drum machine and nothing else.
the synth/keyboard music writer and programmer is a drummer.
> For what it's worth, my personal suspicion is that if the
> major labels went broke, independant music would pretty
> much survive as it is, held together by small but loyal
> bands of followers.
the independent's who will hold out will mostly be independents who
don't make any money and the people running them are on part time jobs
already to supplement their love for quality.
my feelings say that the independents have felt what the majors are
feeling now for a much longer time. i don't have anything in the way of
evidence [btw... blue room records closed down just recently... mute
sold out to a major... but that's got nothing to do with it].
Cam
wrote:
>> In my view a musician is a different animal: someone with something to
>> say and his career is all about saying it and saying it well. Spears
>> and Cave, worlds apart.
>
>because cave... [i believe now on a major, been on a big label for long
>time] still has something to say.
>
>honest.
I'm not sure if that was sincerity or jaded sarcasm, but even if Cave
blew his murder-and-sodomy wad a long time ago, it's still relevant if
only as stark contrast to the oceans of pap being mass produced as we
speak.
Like that linked report pointed out: Sheryl Crow was a hit, industry
was therefore obligated to produce Crow imitators, the imitators got
successful, Crow had to imitate the imitators. At least Cave is still
his own product, and his voice is still distinctive, and as such it's
still food for thought and still extremely valuable.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
cwro...@DIESPAMDIEtig.com.au (Cam) wrote:
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 20:12:44 +1000, jarod <ja...@gravity.net.au>
> wrote:
> >> In my view a musician is a different animal: someone with something to
> >> say and his career is all about saying it and saying it well. Spears
> >> and Cave, worlds apart.
> >
> >because cave... [i believe now on a major, been on a big label for long
> >time] still has something to say.
> >
> >honest.
>
> I'm not sure if that was sincerity or jaded sarcasm, but even if Cave
> blew his murder-and-sodomy wad a long time ago, it's still relevant if
> only as stark contrast to the oceans of pap being mass produced as we
> speak.
Yes. Ain't pop a terrible thing?
Tunes that people can actually remember. How absolutely ghastly,
daaahling!
Nick Cave wrote/writes pop songs. Live with it, old son.
Mass produced it may not have been but it was/is pop, nonetheless.
Nothing necessarily wrong with mass produced pop. Whoever it was that
did the Spice Girls' production is an absolute fucking genius. Not
forgetting SAW (nothing to do with Richard D. James). _That_ trio
are/were a musical pantheon of themselves.
Mr Q. Z. D.
--
Drinker, systems administrator, wannabe writer, musician and all-round bastard.
"...Base 8 is just like base 10 really... ((o))
If you're missing two fingers." - Tom Lehrer ((O))
David W.
Cam wrote:
>
> On Tue, 11 Jun 2002 17:07:51 +1000, "David W." <dav...@gothic.net.au>
> wrote:
> >As in many situations, I am reminded of a quote
> >from Grant Morrison's "The Invisibles":
> >
> >"They put drum machines in the trainers.
> > No more rock stars. No more DJs. Just the
> > sound of kids dancing themselves deaf until
> > dawn."
>
> HA! That's brilliant.
"The Invisibles" is full of great quotes. It's proof that
psychoactive drugs and sex chaos magic *can* make you a
brilliant writer.
But the sacrifice you make is a coherent story.
David W.
@sloth.vurt.net Neef
wrote:
>
>"The Invisibles" is full of great quotes. It's proof that
>psychoactive drugs and sex chaos magic *can* make you a
>brilliant writer.
>
>But the sacrifice you make is a coherent story.
Speaking of which.
You might want to make an effort to pick up his latest effort.
"The Filth"
Issue one is on shelves now and appears to be more of the same :)
Neef (blargh)
---
Change for the machines.
neef at sloth.vurt.net
Cam
<isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <3d05e029...@news.mel.ihug.com.au>,
>cwro...@DIESPAMDIEtig.com.au (Cam) wrote:
>> I'm not sure if that was sincerity or jaded sarcasm, but even if Cave
>> blew his murder-and-sodomy wad a long time ago, it's still relevant if
>> only as stark contrast to the oceans of pap being mass produced as we
>> speak.
>
>Yes. Ain't pop a terrible thing?
>
>Tunes that people can actually remember. How absolutely ghastly,
>daaahling!
That's not even close to my point, you're putting words in my mouth
and totally misrepresenting my attitude toward this discussion.
>Nick Cave wrote/writes pop songs. Live with it, old son.
Pop as in popular? For sure. Pop as in 'baby lah lah lah uh huh',
no.
>Mass produced it may not have been but it was/is pop, nonetheless.
It was also different from the narrow-variations-on-a-love-song that
invariably crack the Top 40. Sticking with Cave as an example of a
much wider community of poets and musicians, the man has a history of
actually living a life and taking the time to interpret the world
around him - an interpretation oftentimes lateral to that of Joe
Average, midriffs and frat boys. Spears, on the other hand, did
talent show since she was 12, she's now something like 19, and is
completely harmless. The kicker is that she's packaged as being
dangerous, in a Billy-what-are-you-doing-in-there kind of sense.
Pop stars are 12 years old now. What the hell can I learn from a 12
year old? What can I learn from yet another midriff-baring
clothesrack whining/bitching/gettin'-all-up-in-my-face about yet
another anonymous romantic cypher? Give me someone who's lived and
has something to teach me, something to impart, something to *say.*
That's all it comes down to, like any book or film: content. The way
radiostations work nowadays, they're just an opium den. Path of least
resistance. You liked what we had before so here's something pretty
much the same. Isn't that easy? Hasn't it been a great 10 years of
music?
>Nothing necessarily wrong with mass produced pop.
Sure, if it's good. Personally I think Blink 182 have come out with a
couple of downright poignant tracks. My beef is with the Sheryl Crow
phenomenon and all it's bastard wall-eyed children pawing hungrily at
my wallet, my brain, and the minds and wallets of kids that are
forming within this medium of no-effort/nothing-new.
> Whoever it was that
>did the Spice Girls' production is an absolute fucking genius.
Technically he probably was. Doesn't stop them being completely
empty.
> Not
>forgetting SAW (nothing to do with Richard D. James). _That_ trio
>are/were a musical pantheon of themselves.
Yup. And they got their ideas from Mills & Boon novels.
David W.
Neef wrote:
> Speaking of which. [Grant Morrison and the Invisibles]
> You might want to make an effort to pick up his latest effort.
>
> "The Filth"
> Issue one is on shelves now and appears to be more of the same :)
Got it. Naked chicks with comb overs.
I'm reserving judgement for at least a few more issues.
It's either going to be a work of genius, or gratuitous
I-ate-too-much-acid-and-now-my-brain-is-a-fractal-dayglo-rainbow
weirdness.
David W.
(don't eat the Invisible acid.)
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
cwro...@DIESPAMDIEtig.com.au (Cam) wrote:
> On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:16:51 GMT, "Mr Q. Z. Diablo"
> <isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <3d05e029...@news.mel.ihug.com.au>,
> >cwro...@DIESPAMDIEtig.com.au (Cam) wrote:
> >> I'm not sure if that was sincerity or jaded sarcasm, but even if Cave
> >> blew his murder-and-sodomy wad a long time ago, it's still relevant if
> >> only as stark contrast to the oceans of pap being mass produced as we
> >> speak.
> >
> >Yes. Ain't pop a terrible thing?
> >
> >Tunes that people can actually remember. How absolutely ghastly,
> >daaahling!
>
> That's not even close to my point, you're putting words in my mouth
> and totally misrepresenting my attitude toward this discussion.
I know. I should have somehoe emphasised that it wasn't a personal
attack per se but my gut reaction to the "more alternative than
alternative" elitism that appears to forget about the merits of those
who can write good pop songs.
> >Nick Cave wrote/writes pop songs. Live with it, old son.
>
> Pop as in popular? For sure.
No way. Pop as in "a tune that the people can hum".
> Pop as in 'baby lah lah lah uh huh',
> no.
>
> >Mass produced it may not have been but it was/is pop, nonetheless.
>
> It was also different from the narrow-variations-on-a-love-song that
> invariably crack the Top 40. Sticking with Cave as an example of a
> much wider community of poets and musicians, the man has a history of
> actually living a life and taking the time to interpret the world
> around him - an interpretation oftentimes lateral to that of Joe
> Average, midriffs and frat boys. Spears, on the other hand, did
> talent show since she was 12, she's now something like 19, and is
> completely harmless. The kicker is that she's packaged as being
> dangerous, in a Billy-what-are-you-doing-in-there kind of sense.
I haven't heard much of what she does. I'm more interested in the music
than the words. Something doesn't have to be all deep and meaningful to
be musically worthwhile.
> Pop stars are 12 years old now. What the hell can I learn from a 12
> year old? What can I learn from yet another midriff-baring
> clothesrack whining/bitching/gettin'-all-up-in-my-face about yet
> another anonymous romantic cypher? Give me someone who's lived and
> has something to teach me, something to impart, something to *say.*
> That's all it comes down to, like any book or film: content. The way
> radiostations work nowadays, they're just an opium den. Path of least
> resistance. You liked what we had before so here's something pretty
> much the same. Isn't that easy? Hasn't it been a great 10 years of
> music?
You choose what music you like. Nobody does it for you. If you demand
some kind of meaning then fine. I demand that a song is well crafted,
well produced and not annoying. I'll take style over content any day.
I love Depeche Mode to death but their lyrics are littered with boring,
middle-class angst and more verbal clangers than I'd care to imagine. I
put the lyrics to one side and enjoy the atmospheres, the tunes and the
sounds. If I want poetry, I'll read poetry; not listen to popular music.
> >Nothing necessarily wrong with mass produced pop.
>
> Sure, if it's good. Personally I think Blink 182 have come out with a
> couple of downright poignant tracks. My beef is with the Sheryl Crow
> phenomenon and all it's bastard wall-eyed children pawing hungrily at
> my wallet, my brain, and the minds and wallets of kids that are
> forming within this medium of no-effort/nothing-new.
>
> > Whoever it was that
> >did the Spice Girls' production is an absolute fucking genius.
>
> Technically he probably was. Doesn't stop them being completely
> empty.
Empty lyrically, for sure. Musically? I doubt it.
If you want to hear _empty_, listen to that young pup, Andrew WK. Songs
about nothing but hook after hook after hook positioned such that you
can't help but mentally headbang along with them. What a work of
absolute genius. Every fibre of your being screams out that the song is
"daggy" or "a guilty pleasure" but there's no hiding the fact that it's
quite, quite brilliant.
I'm old enough to be completely _over_ whether a piece of music is
demanding, undemanding, cool, daggy or whatever. I've come to terms
with the fact that if I like it I like it and there's no point in
justifying it to anyone.
> > Not
> >forgetting SAW (nothing to do with Richard D. James). _That_ trio
> >are/were a musical pantheon of themselves.
>
> Yup. And they got their ideas from Mills & Boon novels.
I wasn't aware that superb tunes, perfect harmonies and on-the-money
drum programming were something that one could find in Mills & Boon
novels...
@sloth.vurt.net Neef
wrote:
>
>Got it. Naked chicks with comb overs.
A well drawn, if not disturbing picture..
>
>I'm reserving judgement for at least a few more issues.
>It's either going to be a work of genius, or gratuitous
>I-ate-too-much-acid-and-now-my-brain-is-a-fractal-dayglo-rainbow
>weirdness.
>
As I said.
It appears to be more of the same :)
Neef (go baby, Go baby!)
jarod
pop rocks... that's why i'm getting to be more and more of a nu-synthpop
fan... go spock, melotron, and one... BRING IT ON!
[aside from kylie's la la la song, boomfunk mc's - freestyler and any
good slathering of aqua and/or venga boys, top 40 sucks!]
> Tunes that people can actually remember. How absolutely ghastly,
> daaahling!
>
> Nick Cave wrote/writes pop songs. Live with it, old son.
>
> Mass produced it may not have been but it was/is pop, nonetheless.
*cough*
i'd say selling into the hundred's of thousands is mass produced.
> Nothing necessarily wrong with mass produced pop. Whoever it was that
> did the Spice Girls' production is an absolute fucking genius. Not
> forgetting SAW (nothing to do with Richard D. James). _That_ trio
> are/were a musical pantheon of themselves.
where credit is due *nod*
jarod
but what about the 40+ year old producer who writes the music... or the
other guy who writes the lyrics ?
there's unlikely to be anyone under the age of 30 involved in most top
40 pop songs, more often than not it's a team of button pushers...
soundtrack people push the same buttons [burton, zimmer, even the guy
from nitzer ebb]...
to me it sounds like your beef is mostly with the lame-o lyrics... but
those are the lyrics that a general populace can attest to... hence the
top 40 ness.
jarod
> some kind of meaning then fine. I demand that a song is well crafted,
> well produced and not annoying. I'll take style over content any day.
>
> I love Depeche Mode to death but their lyrics are littered with boring,
> middle-class angst and more verbal clangers than I'd care to imagine. I
> put the lyrics to one side and enjoy the atmospheres, the tunes and the
> sounds. If I want poetry, I'll read poetry; not listen to popular music.
i learnt to stop listening to lyrics when i was 16... especially as i
listened mostly to heavy industrial [guitar + electronic] music with
vocals that were either impossible to understand or lyrics from bands
were english wasn't there first language... it's the sound of a vocal
that does it for me... i love singing along to songs, but i'd be damned
if i could tell you what most of them are about, if there's something
that's written excellently the meaning will seep in one day or i'll pick
up a great phrase and bother to pay attention to the lyrics...
great examples [i think] :
project pitchfork - terra incognita
covenant - humility [among others]
tankt - elite
the topic can be from any range, but the way it's put together and puts
rhyme and rhythm into a song... it's a rare gift even among so much
music, where the people can be very talented.
> > > Whoever it was that
> > >did the Spice Girls' production is an absolute fucking genius.
> >
> > Technically he probably was. Doesn't stop them being completely
> > empty.
>
> Empty lyrically, for sure. Musically? I doubt it.
i also believe it's possible to get emotional to just music, even pop
music...
petrolgoth
>
> i also believe it's possible to get emotional to just music, even pop
> music...
Yes!
I am often moved to tears over most top 40 pop.
--
n4cat (tears and other movements)
"The pain is too much," Spike Milligan wrote.
"A thousand grim winters grow in my head.
In my ears the sound of the coming dead."
James Russell
>Yes!
>I am often moved to tears over most top 40 pop.
I am often moved to tears by the predominance of shit in the top 40. Or at
least I used to be before I learned to stop looking at it.
James R.
--
The Black Room http://www.ans.com.au/~jgwr/
Celluloid Dreams: Mondays, 7pm AEST, 2SER 107.3 FM http://www.2ser.com/
Sandro
>I wasn't aware that superb tunes, perfect harmonies and on-the->money drum
programming were something that one could find in
>Mills & Boon novels...
I think it's the strict adherence to formula he's referring to,
and the mindless sappiness as well possibly
Sandro - Your favourite band sucks
--
Carthage Must Be Destroyed - Cato the Elder
David W.
> Sometimes it can just be one line that, perhaps accidentally, taps into
> something as well. i remember once hearing a Blink 182 song on the radio, i
> don't know what it's called (that one about "this is growing up") but in
> amongst all the high school, my girl dumped me, boo hoo cliches, there was
> one line that jumped out at me just at that moment.
The song is "Dammit", and it's a damn fine slice of bittersweet pop.
And I disagree that it's full of boo hoo cliches. I think a lot of
the imagery is nicely understated, and presents a clear picture
someone trying to put a brave face over the pain of being dumped:
"And maybe I'll see you at a movie sneak preview
You'll show up and walk by on the arm of that guy
And I'll smile and you'll wave we'll pretend it's okay
The charade it won't last when he's gone I wont come back
And it'll happen once again you'll turn to a friend
Someone that understands sees through the master plan
But everybody's gone and you've been there for too long
To face this on your own well I guess this is growing up"
There's even some clever wordplay:
"I know that you're leaving you must have your reasons
The season is calling your pictures are falling down"
> Gah, now i'm analysing Blink 182 lyrics. i should go find something useful
> to do.
"Princess Leia, where are you tonight?
And who's laying there by your side?
Every night I fall asleep with you
And I wake up alone
And even though I'm not as cool as Han
I still want to be your man
You're exactly the kind of
Alderranian that I need
But when you were available, I was
Drinking Colt 45's with Lando
I was hanging out in the cantina
On Mos Eisley"
-Blink 182, "A New Hope"
David W.
blithespirit
> "Princess Leia, where are you tonight?
> And who's laying there by your side?
> Every night I fall asleep with you
> And I wake up alone
>
> And even though I'm not as cool as Han
> I still want to be your man
> You're exactly the kind of
> Alderranian that I need
>
> But when you were available, I was
> Drinking Colt 45's with Lando
> I was hanging out in the cantina
> On Mos Eisley"
>
> -Blink 182, "A New Hope"
No way. They wrote a star wars song!!!
LOL....
I like Dammit. I admit.
blithe
(just worked out who David W is. duh)
--
I ate Dave's special chocolate frog. It was a gift to him, very expensive,
and I lay down on the couch and ate it all up. Then I called him at work
and told him. I'm like the ferret who must be played with all day or it
pees on your important papers. (Lisa Carver)
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
> [aside from kylie's la la la song, boomfunk mc's - freestyler and any
> good slathering of aqua and/or venga boys, top 40 sucks!]
>
kylie really rocks. she's been involved in consistently good quality pop
releases for 15 years now. Thats not something that just anybody can do.
Madonna too, and even Sheryl Crow (eek!) The immitators influence things,
sure, but immitators come and go. Its the talented pop stars that stay
around.
> > Tunes that people can actually remember. How absolutely ghastly,
> > daaahling!
> >
> > Nick Cave wrote/writes pop songs. Live with it, old son.
> >
> > Mass produced it may not have been but it was/is pop, nonetheless.
>
And to be frank, kylie, with her higher sales and larger exposure is
arguably a better entertainer than nick cave. It depends on your definition
of entertainer (or musician) But if you want to look at the number of people
who have taken her work to heart, or been touched by it in some way... her
life has affected people a lot more profoundly than nick's life. Same goes
for Stock, Aitken and Waterman.
> *cough*
>
> i'd say selling into the hundred's of thousands is mass produced.
>
I'd say designing the song to sell lots of copies is more like mass
producing it. And what producer *doesnt* want to sell hundreds of thousands
on copies of their work?? coil maybe, and a couple of obscure noise
artists...... which leads me to my conclusion that basically all music is
pop, and anyone who denies they are writing pop is being pretentious. (not
that theres anything amazingly wrong with pretension)
> > Nothing necessarily wrong with mass produced pop. Whoever it was that
> > did the Spice Girls' production is an absolute fucking genius. Not
> > forgetting SAW (nothing to do with Richard D. James). _That_ trio
> > are/were a musical pantheon of themselves.
>
> where credit is due *nod*
>
yo! word up!!
julian
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
> I think it's the strict adherence to formula he's referring to,
> and the mindless sappiness as well possibly
>
but strict adherence to formula - ie working in a genre isn't necessarily a
bad thing. All classical music is written with a hideous amount of
restrictions on what you can and can't do, but still produced many beautiful
pieces of music. Then again, when I think of modern goth, thats all written
to a pretty tight formula too, and it makes me want to kill the people
responsible.
I think its art as commodity that he's taking exception to, more than
anything else. And that doesnt just happen with music, it happens with
writing (look at stephen king) and art (look at leunig) then in that
context, stuff like the spice girls and henry rollins make a lot more
sense...... But in a consumption based society, what else can you expect?
Fact is - most people don't appreciate "high" art, they want something
simple and easy to relate to. and they want it to be easy to digest and
available whenever they feel like it. Its easy to look down on people who
like this sort of music. But with personal aesthetics being the main force
at work here, its a bit arrogant to say that another person's taste in art
is invalid.
Cam
<isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <3d069bf0...@news.mel.ihug.com.au>,
>cwro...@DIESPAMDIEtig.com.au (Cam) wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 12 Jun 2002 00:16:51 GMT, "Mr Q. Z. Diablo"
>> <isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >In article <3d05e029...@news.mel.ihug.com.au>,
>> >cwro...@DIESPAMDIEtig.com.au (Cam) wrote:
>> >> I'm not sure if that was sincerity or jaded sarcasm, but even if Cave
>> >> blew his murder-and-sodomy wad a long time ago, it's still relevant if
>> >> only as stark contrast to the oceans of pap being mass produced as we
>> >> speak.
>> >
>> >Yes. Ain't pop a terrible thing?
>> >
>> >Tunes that people can actually remember. How absolutely ghastly,
>> >daaahling!
>>
>> That's not even close to my point, you're putting words in my mouth
>> and totally misrepresenting my attitude toward this discussion.
>
>I know. I should have somehoe emphasised that it wasn't a personal
>attack per se but my gut reaction to the "more alternative than
>alternative" elitism that appears to forget about the merits of those
>who can write good pop songs.
I was turning this over in my head today, and it occurs to me that the
basis of my gripe with 'pop' (ie. corp. manufactured performers
singing tracks selected from a songbank) isnt that it exists, or even
that I 'demand meaning' in my music. Pop, as it's understood in this
conversation, has a right to exist - even needs to exist.
My problem is the fact that the people behind it have domineered their
way into what amounts to something like an aural monopoly. It's
reaching the point where it's not economically viable for artists and
companies to produce anything *but* cookie-cutter material.
It's not pop, per se. If all I ever heard was Cave I'd probably be
hanging for Britney. But what we understand as pop is definitely the
peroxided head on the battering ram, and I guess I really dislike what
it promotes.
[material snipped as I think the above covered it]
>You choose what music you like. Nobody does it for you.
I would really, really debate that. Maybe no one chooses it for you,
specifically, but for the market majority their choices are most
definitely being made for them or the industry wouldn't function.
Hence the stranglehold on radio and MTV, and all the backscratching
that goes on with associated companies like Coca-Cola and Viacom.
> If you demand
>some kind of meaning then fine. I demand that a song is well crafted,
>well produced and not annoying. I'll take style over content any day.
Sure, it's all personal preference. For my money commercial music is
pretty much variations on scale and that's about it. Occasionally a
new trend sweeps in and redecorates a little, but not much. Britney
is Christina Aguilera is Jennifer Lopez is Shakira is Ashanti.
>I love Depeche Mode to death but their lyrics are littered with boring,
>middle-class angst and more verbal clangers than I'd care to imagine. I
>put the lyrics to one side and enjoy the atmospheres, the tunes and the
>sounds. If I want poetry, I'll read poetry; not listen to popular music.
Okay.
I'm happy with musical poetry, I'm happy with grunt. What I'm not
happy with is a midriff with a soundtrack. Even if it's the most
devestating track in history, the way it's sold to me I find
insulting. I couldn't enjoy the music knowing I was supporting yet
another cynical by-the-numbers marketing exercise. (shrug) Especially
when the music is the least of it.
>If you want to hear _empty_, listen to that young pup, Andrew WK. Songs
>about nothing but hook after hook after hook positioned such that you
>can't help but mentally headbang along with them. What a work of
>absolute genius. Every fibre of your being screams out that the song is
>"daggy" or "a guilty pleasure" but there's no hiding the fact that it's
>quite, quite brilliant.
I keep meaning to track his stuff down. I was intrigued by his life
story as related in some street press, so I'd like to see what that
produced. I'd probably dig it.
>I'm old enough to be completely _over_ whether a piece of music is
>demanding, undemanding, cool, daggy or whatever. I've come to terms
>with the fact that if I like it I like it and there's no point in
>justifying it to anyone.
For sure. If you did it wouldn't be working.
>> Yup. And they got their ideas from Mills & Boon novels.
>
>I wasn't aware that superb tunes, perfect harmonies and on-the-money
>drum programming were something that one could find in Mills & Boon
>novels...
Pitch-shifters and harmonisers are wonderful things, true, but IMHO
the music was utterly gutless and calculated. I can appreciate
precision, but not when it comes from the wallet. I do believe this
kind of music fills a need. What I can't agree with is how the people
behind it force it on the public to the exclusion of all else. And
when something new comes along, it immediately gets appropriated and
turned against itself (Manson and ICP for starters).
Maybe it's the nature of the beast. Either way it's probably just a
matter of taste, and as such yet another agree to disagree situation.
Cam
>Sandro - Your favourite band sucks
Love the Onion.
Usekh
"Cam" <cwro...@DIESPAMDIEtig.com.au> wrote in message
news:3d06fb6...@news.mel.ihug.com.au...
> Sure, it's all personal preference. For my money commercial music is
> pretty much variations on scale and that's about it. Occasionally a
> new trend sweeps in and redecorates a little, but not much. Britney
> is Christina Aguilera is Jennifer Lopez is Shakira is Ashanti.
Worst thing is that apparently Shakira used to do some songs with actual
meaning behind them (My Sister is studying South American literate and
culture at the moment and she gets some mentions from the authors) but of
course pop songs when she wiggles her hips sells a lot more
> >If you want to hear _empty_, listen to that young pup, Andrew WK. Songs
> >about nothing but hook after hook after hook positioned such that you
> >can't help but mentally headbang along with them. What a work of
> >absolute genius. Every fibre of your being screams out that the song is
> >"daggy" or "a guilty pleasure" but there's no hiding the fact that it's
> >quite, quite brilliant.
>
> I keep meaning to track his stuff down. I was intrigued by his life
> story as related in some street press, so I'd like to see what that
> produced. I'd probably dig it.
Andrew WK is like that author I was talking to you about at Abyss. No
literary/artistic merit at all, but..they are infectious..I guess it's
because they don't have the feel of being done cynically, you get a feeling
of passion and well feeling behind it. That despite the flaws the artist
really means it.
If that makes any sense
-Usekh
Cam
<jujuli...@hotmail.common> wrote:
>"Sandro" <cein...@excite.com> wrote in message
>> I think it's the strict adherence to formula he's referring to,
>> and the mindless sappiness as well possibly
>>
>but strict adherence to formula - ie working in a genre isn't necessarily a
>bad thing. All classical music is written with a hideous amount of
>restrictions on what you can and can't do, but still produced many beautiful
>pieces of music. Then again, when I think of modern goth, thats all written
>to a pretty tight formula too, and it makes me want to kill the people
>responsible.
I think I clarified a good deal of my POV in my follow up to QZD, but
in relation to restrictions, I agree that working within guidelines
can be a fantastic thing. There's no growth without resistance, and
being forced to be creative within the confines of a set of rules can
result in a person twisting and turning and creating and manipulating
the environment within those rules to produce something quite
striking. A good set of ground rules can stop your work ballooning
like so much yeast.
But in the case of commercial music, the only rule is the bottom line.
And the bottom line is gauged by the last success. Therefore your
next success is, according to common business wisdom, best based upon
your last success.
>I think its art as commodity that he's taking exception to, more than
>anything else. And that doesnt just happen with music, it happens with
>writing (look at stephen king) and art (look at leunig) then in that
>context, stuff like the spice girls and henry rollins make a lot more
>sense...... But in a consumption based society, what else can you expect?
You mention King and Leunig, and you're right. I'd also lump in Anne
Rice and Piers Anthony. Writers get pigeonholed so fast it's
terrifying. Take Poppy Z Brite. She's trying like mad to bust out of
the whole vampire/serial killer/horror thing, and is having a hard
time doing it. She's written what is, from all accounts, a brilliant
little novel entitled LIQUOR about two chefs living in New Orleans and
running a restaurant. Gaiman apparently read the whole thing through
while sitting in the tub and loved it. Can she get a publisher? No,
because it's not what she does. She's a horror writer. They want to
know when the next serial killer book is coming out.
That's what I mean: business kills art. And I don't mean 'art' in
some flouncy, consumptive, self-absorbed, masturbatory sense. I mean
art as in something that grabs you by the face and shows you something
new. I've waited a long, long time for PZB to do something totally
different. I want to see Barker write cyberpunk. I want to see
Gaiman write hard, hard scifi. I want to see PZB write a fucking
restaurant book. One of King's best pieces was the short story that
went on to become THE SHAWSHANK REDEMPTION. Writers often do their
very, very best stuff when lifted from their cosy niche and are forced
to adapt to new rules. It fucking rocks and I want more of it - in
music, in literature, in everything.
But I cant have that, because people who don't really understand what
they're selling are running the show, making the decisions and, as
such, dictating the depth of the culture in which we live.
And that fucking sucks.
>Fact is - most people don't appreciate "high" art, they want something
>simple and easy to relate to.
Yeah, and most kids want ice-cream for dinner.
> and they want it to be easy to digest and
>available whenever they feel like it.
Yep.
> Its easy to look down on people who
>like this sort of music.
I agree it has a right to exist, and needs to exist. I disagree with
the way in which it has become a weed.
> But with personal aesthetics being the main force
>at work here, its a bit arrogant to say that another person's taste in art
>is invalid.
Dunno if that's directed at me, but I dont think I ever said that.
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
"Cam" <cwro...@DIESPAMDIEtig.com.au> wrote
> I think I clarified a good deal of my POV in my follow up to QZD, but
yep fair enough. I read through that and didnt need to add anything because
QZD said a lot of stuff I would have said too.... maybe he said it a bit
clearer though.
> striking. A good set of ground rules can stop your work ballooning
> like so much yeast.
>
yep.
> But in the case of commercial music, the only rule is the bottom line.
> And the bottom line is gauged by the last success. Therefore your
> next success is, according to common business wisdom, best based upon
> your last success.
>
pretty much, yes. pop music generally evolves slowly, with the odd burst of
something breaking through from time to time..
This is generally a product of the need radio stations have for making a
seamless pastel of music to sedate people with at work all day.... but like
the article at the root of this thread said, thats how its been since the
firse upsurge in popularity of music as a signifigant cultural force... and
now due to internet, and a huge variety of music available to anyone with a
home PC these days, this situation is slowly breaking down. my 2c is it
won't ever go away, and maybe it'll allow for people in general to get more
used to experimentation in music. But realise, a lot of people are happy
with the same music, so its not going to change that much....
> terrifying. Take Poppy Z Brite. She's trying like mad to bust out of
> the whole vampire/serial killer/horror thing, and is having a hard
> time doing it. She's written what is, from all accounts, a brilliant
> little novel entitled LIQUOR about two chefs living in New Orleans and
> running a restaurant. Gaiman apparently read the whole thing through
> while sitting in the tub and loved it. Can she get a publisher? No,
> because it's not what she does. She's a horror writer. They want to
> know when the next serial killer book is coming out.
>
Ok, I'd believe maybe not her normal publishers, and maybe not the deal she
normally gets with her more popular work.... but if she wanted it published,
I'm sure there are some houses that would put out anything she wanted under
her name.
That book sounds like fun... I've never read a PZB book before, just mainly
because I always took it as a gothic mills and boon sorta thing... that and
I always had other things I wanted to read... maybe if this one gets
published I'll grab a copy.
> That's what I mean: business kills art. And I don't mean 'art' in
> some flouncy, consumptive, self-absorbed, masturbatory sense. I mean
> art as in something that grabs you by the face and shows you something
> new.
of course!
> But I cant have that, because people who don't really understand what
> they're selling are running the show, making the decisions and, as
yep. and its like that in everything.
reminds me of my last job. and that wasnt anything to do with music or
writing.
oh well.... dont have to go there anymore.....
> such, dictating the depth of the culture in which we live.
>
that point's a bit harder to draw. yeah they influence people, but people
are part of the loop. and there has to be something in that mass produced
popular music for people as a whole to lock into. Because without a feeling
of identification to a product, its a lot harder to sell it...
> >Fact is - most people don't appreciate "high" art, they want something
> >simple and easy to relate to.
>
> Yeah, and most kids want ice-cream for dinner.
>
I like the analogy, but I'm not sure about likening other people with
"simpler" tastes to kids... a kid wanting ice-cream for dinner have parents
to tell them they need to eat proper food. But like you cant parent a grown
up who wants to eat ice cream for dinner, you can't parent a grown person
over their music/book/art taste. as much as you'd like. I used to want to...
still do sometimes....
> > Its easy to look down on people who
> >like this sort of music.
>
> I agree it has a right to exist, and needs to exist. I disagree with
> the way in which it has become a weed.
>
I remember reading an interview with madonna a while ago, and she was
talking about how people always say that shes such a great saleswoman...
well her reply to that is that it wouldnt matter how great a saleswoman she
is, if she was selling crap nobody would want it.
Also, kinda relevant to this..... someone somewhere in this thread said
something about 30-40 year old producers and soulless clinical product. In
interviews with pop producers I've read over the years, they seem pretty far
from soulless. These 40-something producers, in many cases have amazingly
deep musical knowlege, and life experience, and they really enjoy their
jobs. Its not 'just a job' for these people, its the job of a lifetime.
Something they've worked really hard to get into, something they pour
themselves into, and something they would never give up for anything.
> > But with personal aesthetics being the main force
> >at work here, its a bit arrogant to say that another person's taste in
art
> >is invalid.
>
> Dunno if that's directed at me, but I dont think I ever said that.
>
not particularly.
its directed at me as much as you.
julian
(then again, what would I know... I'm listening to "play that funky music"
by wild cherry right now)
Kat
>> I think it's the strict adherence to formula he's referring to,
>> and the mindless sappiness as well possibly
>>
>but strict adherence to formula - ie working in a genre isn't necessarily a
>bad thing. All classical music is written with a hideous amount of
>restrictions on what you can and can't do, but still produced many beautiful
>pieces of music.
It's called form. Almost all works will be written to *some* type of
form, and it's not a "hideous restriction," it's so that the music has
structure. Same as what writers do - would you like to read a book
that rambled and had no discernable structure?
Now, harmony? That's another story.
Kat
Kat
>On the other hand are those rare moments when you suddenly realise what a
>song is about and it hits you like a ton of bricks (eg, when i actually sat
>down and listened to the words of 'Once in a Lifetime' and realised what it
>was about. Even though it's, as a whole, terribly fake and cliched, the one
>line of "i find myself feeling lonely" somehow stuck me right in the guts
>when i understood the context, probably because i hadn't seen it coming with
>the happy sounding melodies and disinterested vocals).
This is what happened to me with SoM's 'Some Kind of Stranger.' I tend
to fall into the habit of not paying attention to lyrics because often
I see them as secondary to the actual music. I realised how wrong I
could be in doing that when I listened properly to the lyrics of 'Some
Kind of Stranger' and discovered how beautiful they were.
Kat
slaveangel
"mr julian (w/ spamguard)" <jujuli...@hotmail.common> wrote in message
news:3d075121$0$21004$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
:
: (then again, what would I know... I'm listening to "play that funky music"
: by wild cherry right now)
oh no ...
but i guess it could be worse ..
you could be listening to bif tek *ducks*
;p
A*
--
"Was slightly mystified by presence of guitarist who didn't seem to be
plugged in and whose only contribution was to make flailing arm gestures at
the audience. I fear this was because he did not know the English for "Wave
your hands in the air! Show me your glosticks!" (Teqkiller on Apop gig)
Morgan Jaffit
> It's called form. Almost all works will be written to *some* type of
> form, and it's not a "hideous restriction," it's so that the music has
> structure. Same as what writers do - would you like to read a book
> that rambled and had no discernable structure?
Yes.
entrippy (that is all)
solitaire
Me, I can't wait for the film of _Game Players of Titan_.
But Arny or Tom as the hero, that's the question...
sol.
.
--
"It's just you, you seriously twisted little fuck. Don't ever change, we
like you just the way you are."
-- Paul Tomblin to Skud
Morgan Jaffit
> Anyone would think you were a Philip K. Dick fan or something.
Err - possibly guilty as charged...
> Me, I can't wait for the film of _Game Players of Titan_.
> But Arny or Tom as the hero, that's the question...
Are you baiting me, or is this on the cards? Minority Report starts in a
couple of days here. I know it may well suck, but I cannot help being
excited...
entrippy (whackstar?)
solitaire
_Galactic Pot Healer_, or _Flow MY Tears_, much as we may wish it.
I gather ( possibly even from here) that _Minority Report_ is actually a
pretty decent attempt. Truer even to the original story than _Blade
Runner_ !!
sol.
.
--
"I can feel a distinct lack of testosterone in the room."
-- hobbes
jarod
>
>
> > [aside from kylie's la la la song, boomfunk mc's - freestyler and any
> > good slathering of aqua and/or venga boys, top 40 sucks!]
> >
> kylie really rocks. she's been involved in consistently good quality pop
> releases for 15 years now. Thats not something that just anybody can do.
> Madonna too, and even Sheryl Crow (eek!) The immitators influence things,
> sure, but immitators come and go. Its the talented pop stars that stay
> around.
very true... i've always had a simular respect to kylie as i've had for
madonna... for pop music they have both often been on the edge [madonna
more than kylie... but i still see kylie as doing her thang].
hell... even michael jackson is revolutionary for pop music... people
just don't seem to give him quite the time of day they used to...
> > *cough*
> >
> > i'd say selling into the hundred's of thousands is mass produced.
> >
> I'd say designing the song to sell lots of copies is more like mass
> producing it. And what producer *doesnt* want to sell hundreds of thousands
> on copies of their work?? coil maybe, and a couple of obscure noise
> artists...... which leads me to my conclusion that basically all music is
> pop, and anyone who denies they are writing pop is being pretentious. (not
> that theres anything amazingly wrong with pretension)
coil probably doesn't sell into the 100,000 per album... but they would
be coming close... a lot of the mute, beggars banquet, 4ad [just picking
some of the big independents from my head right now] those bands would
be making a living from their work.
acts like moby, fat boy slim + madisson avenue are all now top 40, but
it's taken each act about 10 years to get to that point... so it's
obvious that they *know* they are writing pop songs. and all the more
glory to them, they've worked hard, deserve some reward.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
cwro...@DIESPAMDIEtig.com.au (Cam) wrote:
I'm jumping back into this long after much of what I wanted to say has
been said but...
Commercial imperatives will decide what's popular and what's not quite a
bit of the time. We should never underestimate the power of marketing
in the short term.
...But the short term is all that the truly "manufactured" stuff has to
look forward to. That's why Bardot will not even be a memory when, say,
The Spice Girls are getting airplay 20 years from now. History is
generally the judge and that's the way it will always be. Kylie now
occupies a place in the musical firmament similar to that which is
occupied by, say, New Order. Her (and SAW's) songs have been shown to
be something more than just bubble gum. What, exactly, we don't know
but we _do_ know that it's more.
> It's not pop, per se. If all I ever heard was Cave I'd probably be
> hanging for Britney.
You sick puppy.
> But what we understand as pop is definitely the
> peroxided head on the battering ram, and I guess I really dislike what
> it promotes.
>
> [material snipped as I think the above covered it]
>
> >You choose what music you like. Nobody does it for you.
>
> I would really, really debate that. Maybe no one chooses it for you,
> specifically, but for the market majority their choices are most
> definitely being made for them or the industry wouldn't function.
> Hence the stranglehold on radio and MTV, and all the backscratching
> that goes on with associated companies like Coca-Cola and Viacom.
Just as insidious, though, is the notion of "cred". Backscratching is
not unique to manufactured artists. Surely everyone here remembers the
Chemical Brothers' deal with Coca Cola...?
[snip]
> >I love Depeche Mode to death but their lyrics are littered with boring,
> >middle-class angst and more verbal clangers than I'd care to imagine. I
> >put the lyrics to one side and enjoy the atmospheres, the tunes and the
> >sounds. If I want poetry, I'll read poetry; not listen to popular
> >music.
>
> Okay.
>
> I'm happy with musical poetry, I'm happy with grunt. What I'm not
> happy with is a midriff with a soundtrack. Even if it's the most
> devestating track in history, the way it's sold to me I find
> insulting.
I tend to listen to the noise that's made and take it from there. I
can't really be marketed to because I don't watch Rage or whatever TV's
greatest hits program is out there and I don't really listen to the
radio. If I happen upon something that I like I just like it and I'm
usually unaware of the marketing because I haven't seen it.
> >If you want to hear _empty_, listen to that young pup, Andrew WK. Songs
> >about nothing but hook after hook after hook positioned such that you
> >can't help but mentally headbang along with them. What a work of
> >absolute genius. Every fibre of your being screams out that the song is
> >"daggy" or "a guilty pleasure" but there's no hiding the fact that it's
> >quite, quite brilliant.
>
> I keep meaning to track his stuff down. I was intrigued by his life
> story as related in some street press, so I'd like to see what that
> produced. I'd probably dig it.
'80s cock rock with '90s/'00s production. Sounds wonderful. The
performer is a complete livewire and I'm assured that the big hit
("Party Hard" - you get the picture) was done by assembling and
processing sampled snippets on a computer with the vocals being
overdubbed in pretty much the same way.
[snip]
[SAW]
> >> Yup. And they got their ideas from Mills & Boon novels.
> >
> >I wasn't aware that superb tunes, perfect harmonies and on-the-money
> >drum programming were something that one could find in Mills & Boon
> >novels...
>
> Pitch-shifters and harmonisers are wonderful things, true, but IMHO
> the music was utterly gutless and calculated. I can appreciate
> precision, but not when it comes from the wallet.
That's where it all falls down. You can give Joe Punter a multi-million
dollar studio with all the latest bells and whistles but you can't give
him that precision or the ability to write music like that.
Hell's bells! I'm reasonably musically literate (and I can play) but
_I_ couldn't produce that kind of "precision", quite simply because I
lack the requisite talent. SAW weren't/aren't marketers - they're
producers. They don't promote their material, they _compose_ it and
their reputation grew out of this - not marketing. Otherwise, it would
have been "Shocked" by SAW, not "Shocked" by Kylie.
> I do believe this
> kind of music fills a need. What I can't agree with is how the people
> behind it force it on the public to the exclusion of all else. And
> when something new comes along, it immediately gets appropriated and
> turned against itself (Manson and ICP for starters).
>
> Maybe it's the nature of the beast. Either way it's probably just a
> matter of taste, and as such yet another agree to disagree situation.
Pretty much.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<foxfor...@EATSPAMmac.com> wrote:
> David W. wrote:
>
> > "Princess Leia, where are you tonight?
> > And who's laying there by your side?
> > Every night I fall asleep with you
> > And I wake up alone
> >
> > And even though I'm not as cool as Han
> > I still want to be your man
> > You're exactly the kind of
> > Alderranian that I need
> >
> > But when you were available, I was
> > Drinking Colt 45's with Lando
> > I was hanging out in the cantina
> > On Mos Eisley"
> >
> > -Blink 182, "A New Hope"
>
> No way. They wrote a star wars song!!!
> LOL....
> I like Dammit. I admit.
I like the one that goes:
"It would be nice...to have a blow job.
It would be nice...to have a blow job.
It would be nice...to have a blow job.
It would be nice...to have a blow job
FROM YOUR MOM."
That last line with four part harmony and feeling.
Juvenile? For sure.
Laugh? I nearly lost an eye. It was all in the timing.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
> "Sandro" <cein...@excite.com> wrote in message
>
> > I think it's the strict adherence to formula he's referring to,
> > and the mindless sappiness as well possibly
> >
> but strict adherence to formula - ie working in a genre isn't necessarily
> a
> bad thing. All classical music is written with a hideous amount of
> restrictions on what you can and can't do
Hmmm...
I wonder if anyone told that to Bach, Mozart, Mahler, Debussy, Berlioz,
Stravinsky, Cage, Berio and hundreds of others...
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<stra...@goth.net.spicedham> wrote:
> As far as the Stock Aitkin Waterman thing goes, my main problem with them
> (aside from it just 'not being my thing') was exactly that. Not that
> their
> sound wasn't well crafted or catchy or technically whatever, but that
> their
> business was about taking any artist that came to them and shaping them
> into
> the mould that was currently shifting units. Bananarama, Dead or Alive,
> Kylie, Jason, even Sigue Sigue Sputnik
Hate to do this to you, but SSS had absolutely nothing to do with SAW.
They were produced by the sublime Georgio Moroder. Their noise has more
of the hallmarks of Moroder's heavy-handed approach (not that that's
bad) rather than the light touch of SAW and it stands out a mile that
this is the case.
> - you go to SAW and you come out
> sounding like SAW, not like Bananarama, Dead or Alive, Kylie, Jason or
> Sigue
> Sigue Sputnik. (It's especially ironic with Dead or Alive, as SAW seem
> to
> have nicked 'their' sound from DoA, who nicked it from Sylvester, but
> ultimately DoA ended up sounding less like DoA than a generic SAW band).
What did DoA do before they hooked up with SAW? Genuinely interested, I
am.
[snip]
> If it's a choice between talent and sincerity, i think i'll take
> sincerity.
I'll take both. If I have to do without one, I'll take talent any day
of the week.
I've seen/heard too many acts who suck, but do it sincerely.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
soli...@lioness.tygger.net wrote:
> On 12 Jun 2002 23:56:01 GMT, Morgan Jaffit
> <mor...@extro.vurt.net> wrote:
> >In article <slrnagfnpm.1...@fatcat.tygger.net>, solitaire
> >wrote:
> >
> >> Me, I can't wait for the film of _Game Players of Titan_.
> >> But Arny or Tom as the hero, that's the question...
> >
> >Are you baiting me, or is this on the cards? Minority Report starts in
> >a
> >couple of days here. I know it may well suck, but I cannot help being
> >excited...
> >
> Oh, I'm baiting you. I can't imagine Hollywood doing that, or
> _Galactic Pot Healer_, or _Flow MY Tears_, much as we may wish it.
>
> I gather ( possibly even from here) that _Minority Report_ is actually a
> pretty decent attempt. Truer even to the original story than _Blade
> Runner_ !!
BLADE RUNNER was just an excuse to tack one of Dick's basic premises
onto a futuristic film noir. I loved it but PKD, it wasn't.
I honestly feel that TOTAL RECALL more closely approximated Dick's
off-the-wall approach to plotting, Arnie's performance aside.
Kat
>> bad thing. All classical music is written with a hideous amount of
>> restrictions on what you can and can't do
>
>Hmmm...
>
>I wonder if anyone told that to Bach, Mozart, Mahler, Debussy, Berlioz,
>Stravinsky, Cage, Berio and hundreds of others...
Bach - very structured. He defined the rules of harmony as we know
them today.
Mozart - a classical period composer. You can't get any more
structured and predictable than the classical period.
Mahler, Debussy and Berlioz are all late romantics, early C20
composers. The strict adherance to form and harmony had begun to break
down at this point.
Stravinsky, Cage and Berio are all C20 composers, and as such they did
whatever the fuck they wanted to :) 4'33" indeed.
Kat
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
> but i guess it could be worse ..
>
> you could be listening to bif tek *ducks*
>
hey!!!
Don't you be makin' me come all the way down to melbourne with a rolled up
newspaper!
:-P
julian
(Got an original copy of the first biftek album for my birthday this week!!
WOOHOO!!!)
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
> I wonder if anyone told that to Bach, Mozart, Mahler, Debussy, Berlioz,
> Stravinsky, Cage, Berio and hundreds of others...
>
I'm not musically educated enough to tell you about all the rules for music
back when bach and mozart were writing, but there was lots. apparently...
especially relating to what you could do with harmonies.
julian
(a big help)
Sandro
>>>I think it's the strict adherence to formula he's referring
>>>to, and the mindless sappiness as well possibly
>>but strict adherence to formula - ie working in a genre isn't
>>necessarily a bad thing. All classical music is written with a
>>hideous amount of restrictions on what you can and can't do,
>>but still produced many beautiful pieces of music.
Yet name a piece of orchaestral music written according to the
"formula" of Beethoven's Ode to Joy which is as well known as
the Ode to Joy. Refer to me a Requiem structured like Mozart's
Requiem, or as brilliant and compelling. I have collected a
large number of Requiems on CD, and they all follow a format, but
they are as fundamentally different from each other as if they
were written by alien species. Example, Faure's req compared to
Mozart's compared to Verdi's compared to Berlioz's compared to Gorceki's
compared to anyone elses. They all take the form of a
requiem mass (let's say that's the 3 minute pop song form), with
the Requiem, Kyrie, Dies Irae, Lachrymosa, Offeratorium,
Sanctus, Benedictus, Agnus Dei, Lux Aeterna and Libera Me (verse
chorus verse structure, let's say), but no-one, no one including
my deaf co-worker would say that any of the pieces have anything
but a tentative structure and the same theme in common. They're
as fundamentally different from each other as possible, though
they are coming from the same mileau (with the exception of
Gorecki). So I don't see how form has to dictate substance. The
combinations of notes are not infinite, but close enough to it
for there to be millions of different sounding pieces of music
possible.
If fifteen pieces of music sound the same, have the same formula,
same theme, same lyrics, then I don't need the fifteen pieces of
music. I need one of them.
>It's called form. Almost all works will be written to *some*
>type of form, and it's not a "hideous restriction," it's so
>that the music has structure.
>Same as what writers do - would you like to read a book
>that rambled and had no discernable structure?
Well, I guess I'm a bit biased here, in that there are writers
that I like who do exactly what you're referring to
(some Kerouac, Joyce, Pynchon, Vonnegut, Burroughs, Miller), and
I myself am guilty of it as well as a writer. Sometimes it's the
writing that's coming out of you that dictates the form, other
times it's the form you've decided upon which dictates what
you're going to write.
Sandro - form != substance
--
Carthage Must Be Destroyed - Cato the Elder
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
> "Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote
>
> > I wonder if anyone told that to Bach, Mozart, Mahler, Debussy, Berlioz,
> > Stravinsky, Cage, Berio and hundreds of others...
> >
> I'm not musically educated enough to tell you about all the rules for
> music
> back when bach and mozart were writing, but there was lots. apparently...
> especially relating to what you could do with harmonies.
...And all of the composers that I named (and the countless others to
which I alluded) broke those rules almost constantly. Even Bach, and he
devised hundreds of said rules.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
mistr...@NOSPAMsmartchat.net.au (Kat) wrote:
> Mr Q. Z. Diablo wrote:
>
>
>
> >> bad thing. All classical music is written with a hideous amount of
> >> restrictions on what you can and can't do
> >
> >Hmmm...
> >
> >I wonder if anyone told that to Bach, Mozart, Mahler, Debussy, Berlioz,
> >Stravinsky, Cage, Berio and hundreds of others...
>
> Bach - very structured. He defined the rules of harmony as we know
> them today.
...And broke almost all of them almost constantly.
> Mozart - a classical period composer. You can't get any more
> structured and predictable than the classical period.
...And Mozart was a master of very un-by-the-rules chromatic passages.
> Mahler, Debussy and Berlioz are all late romantics, early C20
> composers. The strict adherance to form and harmony had begun to break
> down at this point.
You _did_ say all classical music, by which I assumed that you meant all
"classical" music. ;)
> Stravinsky, Cage and Berio are all C20 composers, and as such they did
> whatever the fuck they wanted to :) 4'33" indeed.
Tell that to someone like Schöenberg ("Mr Tone Row"). I believe that
Cage and Berio wrote tone row pieces.
"Classical" music is a funny beast and fairly difficult to nail down,
especially when it comes to the notion of "restrictions" or "structure".
;)
solitaire
<isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <slrnagfov9.1...@fatcat.tygger.net>,
>soli...@lioness.tygger.net wrote:
>
>>
>> I gather ( possibly even from here) that _Minority Report_ is actually a
>> pretty decent attempt. Truer even to the original story than _Blade
>> Runner_ !!
>
>BLADE RUNNER was just an excuse to tack one of Dick's basic premises
>onto a futuristic film noir. I loved it but PKD, it wasn't.
Pretend they're a smiley.
>
>I honestly feel that TOTAL RECALL more closely approximated Dick's
>off-the-wall approach to plotting, Arnie's performance aside.
Arny was indeed hideously miscast. Tom Cruise is far closer to a PKD
hero in that he has that weedy, normal guy thing going. IF only he can
act appropriately.
Though Harrison Ford made a good PKD style hero, but as you say, they
threw away the actual book.
sol.
.
--
Netizen: Hairdressers for the geek world.
Belegdel
> kylie really rocks. she's been involved in consistently good quality
> pop releases for 15 years now. Thats not something that just
> anybody can do. Madonna too, and even Sheryl Crow (eek!) The
> immitators influence things, sure, but immitators come and go. Its
> the talented pop stars that stay around.
Piffle. In cases like Madonna and Kylie, they've achieved a kind of
popularity feedback that only the "pop" marketting machine can achieve.
Both of them would have to go radically off the rails to produce
something that wouldn't automatically "set the trend".
I often wonder how successful they would be if they consistently wore
body coverring, unflattering dag clothes and produced the same music.
> And to be frank, kylie, with her higher sales and larger exposure is
>arguably a better entertainer than nick cave.
Wow, that actually made me feel physically dirty. And I don't even like
Nick Cave.
(Though I should say I'm not having a go at you. I'm rather more
stunned at just how much I hate what Kylie Minogue stands for. Or, more
to the point, what she doesn't stand for.)
> It depends on your definition of entertainer (or musician)
It certainly does. I'm afraid I can't deny that Kylie is an
entertainer, and a successful one. But frankly I think that's because
the term entertainer has become synonymous with financial success.
Any other use is generally considered pretentious.
>But if you want to look at the number
> of people who have taken her work to heart, or been touched by it
> in some way... her life has affected people a lot more profoundly
> than nick's life. Same goes for Stock, Aitken and Waterman.
I'm really going to need a shower tonight.
It could just be entirely coincidence but I've never had the kind of
life changing realisation from Kylie's drivel that I have from artists,
even artists I can't stand like Nick Cave, Henry Rollins and .
Really, though, my problem with "pop" is not the music itself. It has a
place and I do enjoy some of it. I even find myself bopping to Kylie on
occasion. The problem I see is the way it stiffles anything that is not
like itself. Musical bogottry.
That effect makes it much, much more difficult for me to find the kind
of music I do like to hear. And when the pop scene shifts again, those
who like the current sound will be reduced to retro clubs and the
occiasional revival band. Some sounds don't even have that.
Pop is a bully. It silences anything that might challenge it and
derides those it can't silence. Pop is not a musical style, it's a
successful marketting strategy. It's every bit as offensive as Big Oil,
3rd world debt and all the other money-diseased executives in the world.
> I'd say designing the song to sell lots of copies is more like mass
> producing
> it. And what producer *doesnt* want to sell hundreds of thousands on
> copies of their work?? coil maybe, and a couple of obscure noise
> artists......
> which leads me to my conclusion that basically all music is pop,
> and anyone who denies they are writing pop is being pretentious.
> (not that theres anything amazingly wrong with pretension)
Isn't it a bit unfair to conjure up an all encompassing definition then
level insults at anyone who claims to be outside your definition?
> yo! word up!!
Always makes me think of a bright red cod-piece.
--
Belegdel | "I want more than action and special effects,
To think about what might happen next,
A Hero not a weapon shop with pecs,
A Heroine not an excuse for sex." - Tom Smith
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
soli...@lioness.tygger.net wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:48:38 GMT, Mr Q. Z. Diablo
> <isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >In article <slrnagfov9.1...@fatcat.tygger.net>,
> >soli...@lioness.tygger.net wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I gather ( possibly even from here) that _Minority Report_ is actually
> >> a
> >> pretty decent attempt. Truer even to the original story than _Blade
> >> Runner_ !!
> >
> >BLADE RUNNER was just an excuse to tack one of Dick's basic premises
> >onto a futuristic film noir. I loved it but PKD, it wasn't.
> Uh, yes. See those two exclamation marks?
> Pretend they're a smiley.
Ah. "I-ro-ny". Something that you hu-mons use from time to time. It
is part of your Earth "hu-mour", is it not?
> >I honestly feel that TOTAL RECALL more closely approximated Dick's
> >off-the-wall approach to plotting, Arnie's performance aside.
> Arny was indeed hideously miscast. Tom Cruise is far closer to a PKD
> hero in that he has that weedy, normal guy thing going. IF only he can
> act appropriately.
> Though Harrison Ford made a good PKD style hero, but as you say, they
> threw away the actual book.
Ford doesn't quite have that "everyman" quality about him. Then again,
who in Hollywood does?
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<stra...@goth.net.spicedham> wrote:
> mr julian (w/ spamguard) wrote
>
> :And to be frank, kylie, with her higher sales and larger exposure
> :is arguably a better entertainer than nick cave. It depends on
> :your definition of entertainer (or musician) But if you want to
> :look at the number of people who have taken her work to heart,
> :or been touched by it in some way...
>
>
> Does Kylie write her own songs?
Some of 'em, I gather.
I doubt that the real "high points" are her own efforts, though. Unless
she writes the words (which are shite, anyway).
I would be very surprised if she wrote either "Can't Get You Out of my
Head" or "Shocked"; let's just put it that way.
James Russell
<isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>"It would be nice...to have a blow job.
>It would be nice...to have a blow job.
>It would be nice...to have a blow job.
>It would be nice...to have a blow job
>FROM YOUR MOM."
>That last line with four part harmony and feeling.
Eh. For close harmony and feeling, I don't think you can beat The Clovers'
"Rotten Cocksuckers' Ball". That's a beautiful piece of singing right there.
James R.
(fuck, suck and fight)
--
The Black Room http://www.ans.com.au/~jgwr/
Celluloid Dreams: Mondays, 7pm AEST, 2SER 107.3 FM http://www.2ser.com/
Lionel
"Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <isaac_a...@hotmail.com> said:
[Kylie Moggy]
>I doubt that the real "high points" are her own efforts, though. Unless
>she writes the words (which are shite, anyway).
>
>I would be very surprised if she wrote either "Can't Get You Out of my
>Head" or "Shocked"; let's just put it that way.
Those are her *high* points? Yow!
PS: She went to high school with my little sister. (Camberwell High)
--
W
. | ,. w , "Some people are alive only because
\|/ \|/ it is illegal to kill them." Perna condita delenda est
---^----^---------------------------------------------------------------
slaveangel
"stranger.." <stra...@goth.net.spicedham> wrote in message
news:3d082dd5$1...@news.alphalink.com.au...
:
: :What did DoA do before they hooked up with SAW?
: :Genuinely interested, I am.
:
:
: Ripped off Sylvester, mostly. Not sure if it was Youthquake or Mad Bad &
: Dangerous that SAW became involved, but by the latter pretty much all the
: interesting bits had been polished off them.
SAW produced youthquake.. and i guess got DoA known with 'spin me round'
i havent heard any of thier earlier albums ..
A*
--
http://www.geocities.com/slaveangel_2000
Art is not a mirror held up to reality; it is a hammer used to shape it.
-Bertold Brecht
slaveangel
"mr julian (w/ spamguard)" <jujuli...@hotmail.common> wrote in message
: slaveangel wrote
:
: > but i guess it could be worse ..
: >
: > you could be listening to bif tek *ducks*
: >
: hey!!!
: Don't you be makin' me come all the way down to melbourne with a rolled up
: newspaper!
*pttf* idle threats dont scare me (hides behind David)
: (Got an original copy of the first biftek album for my birthday this
week!!
: WOOHOO!!!)
your such a fan boi
oh i missed yer birthfdee .. *doh*
hope you had a gopod one old man ;p
A*
--
http://www.geocities.com/slaveangel_2000
Ted : You know the phrase 'to take care of something'? Well, I realise now
that you meant that in a sort of Al Pacino way. Whereas I was thinking more
along the lines of Julie Andrews.
petrolgoth
> "Mr Q. Z. Diablo" said:
>
> [Kylie Moggy]
>
> PS: She went to high school with my little sister. (Camberwell High)
So did you fuck her?
--
n4cat
"The pain is too much," Spike Milligan wrote.
"A thousand grim winters grow in my head.
In my ears the sound of the coming dead."
Trayce
wrote:
>"Lionel" wrote
>> "Mr Q. Z. Diablo" said:
>>
>> [Kylie Moggy]
>>
>> PS: She went to high school with my little sister. (Camberwell High)
>
>
>So did you fuck her?
Gee dont beat around the bush or anything... oh wait. Maybe he did.
Trayce (fnarr! thank yew thank yew)
--
faith in chaos
trace @ connect.net.au
http://www.memorygongs.com
Lionel
forum, "petrolgoth" <n4...@yahoo.com> said:
>"Lionel" wrote
>> "Mr Q. Z. Diablo" said:
>>
>> [Kylie Moggy]
>>
>> PS: She went to high school with my little sister. (Camberwell High)
>
>
>So did you fuck her?
You pervert! I wouldn't fuck my sister!
</totally_straight_face>
Red Drag Diva
solitaire <soli...@lioness.tygger.net> wrote:
: On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:48:38 GMT, Mr Q. Z. Diablo
: <isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>I honestly feel that TOTAL RECALL more closely approximated Dick's
:>off-the-wall approach to plotting, Arnie's performance aside.
: Arny was indeed hideously miscast. Tom Cruise is far closer to a PKD
: hero in that he has that weedy, normal guy thing going. IF only he can
: act appropriately.
I think Bruce Willis as a PKD hero would be interesting. An action hero
who looks confused and frightened all the time.
--
http://thingy.apana.org.au/~fun/ http://www.caube.org.au/
"Actually, I've just come up with a good game. 'Javascript Roulette'(tm).
You get your web designer, and start pointing different browsers at
their page. When it breaks, you shoot them!" (Mark Rae)
Red Drag Diva
And that Schoenberg started off doing much more conventional stuff
before going all twelve-tone.
: "Classical" music is a funny beast and fairly difficult to nail down,
: especially when it comes to the notion of "restrictions" or "structure".
That's because "classical music" is much more of a class construct than a
musical one.
Red Drag Diva
stranger.. <stra...@goth.net.spicedham> wrote:
: Mr Q. Z. Diablo wrote
::Hate to do this to you, but SSS had absolutely nothing to do with SAW.
: i remember them doing at least one song ('called 'Success' or 'Excess' or
: something like that) with SAW, after the hype had died off and everybody had
: just about forgotten them. It sounded nothing like the Sputniks and
: everything like whatever else SAW were doing at the time. Hence, it's
: something that sticks in my mind as how a band stops sounding like
: themselves and becomes a product tuned for the marketplace (though i suspect
: with the Sputniks it was as much a joke as everything else they did).
First single off second album. (Yes, there was a second album.) SSS went
to get a song produced by SAW as a witty artist joke. I recall they were
quite annoyed that SAW insisted on adding a second and third chord for
the chorus.
::What did DoA do before they hooked up with SAW?
::Genuinely interested, I am.
: Ripped off Sylvester, mostly. Not sure if it was Youthquake or Mad Bad &
: Dangerous that SAW became involved, but by the latter pretty much all the
: interesting bits had been polished off them.
First album 'Sophisticated Boom Boom' was produced by Zeus B. Held, who
did a lot of pop production in the early '80s. ("That's The Way" is off
that album.) 'Youthquake' and 'Mad, Bad And Dangerous To Know' were
produced by SAW. Fourth album 'Nude', I forget who produced that one.
Red Drag Diva
: lack the requisite talent. SAW weren't/aren't marketers - they're
: producers. They don't promote their material, they _compose_ it and
: their reputation grew out of this - not marketing. Otherwise, it would
: have been "Shocked" by SAW, not "Shocked" by Kylie.
I'm actually with you on this one. At the height of their success, they
produced a track called 'Roadblock' which they sent copies of around the
UK as white labels, pretending it was an old rarity. It got a fair bit
of hipness attached to it. Then they revealed it was them (and it's one
of the few things they produced that was released under their own name).
Sandro
>>[Kylie Moggy]
>>PS: She went to high school with my little sister. (Camberwell
>>High)
>So did you fuck her?
I assume you mean Kylie and not Lionel's sister. Although as they
say, assumption is the mother of all fuckups.
Anyway, everyone's fucked Kylie except you, n4cat.
Sandro - even my mum's had a go at her
solitaire
<f...@thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>On 13 Jun 2002 02:52:40 GMT,
>solitaire <soli...@lioness.tygger.net> wrote:
>: On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:48:38 GMT, Mr Q. Z. Diablo
>: <isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>:>I honestly feel that TOTAL RECALL more closely approximated Dick's
>:>off-the-wall approach to plotting, Arnie's performance aside.
>
>: Arny was indeed hideously miscast. Tom Cruise is far closer to a PKD
>: hero in that he has that weedy, normal guy thing going. IF only he can
>: act appropriately.
>
>
>I think Bruce Willis as a PKD hero would be interesting. An action hero
>who looks confused and frightened all the time.
>
PKD's heroes aren't just confused and frightened, they're confused and
frightened because they're *not* action heroes.
Even Tom is pushing it, but as soon as you cast Bruce, it just screams
"Action Hero"
Woody Allen. That's the perfect PKD hero.
sol.
.
--
"I can't believe that as this company gets bigger it gets *more*
incestuous."
-- Penny
Morgan Jaffit
[On actors appropros for dickheads]
> Uh, but he's too butch.
> PKD's heroes aren't just confused and frightened, they're confused and
> frightened because they're *not* action heroes.
> Even Tom is pushing it, but as soon as you cast Bruce, it just screams
> "Action Hero"
>
> Woody Allen. That's the perfect PKD hero.
I'll put in a vote for the main guy from Pi - he had the right amount of
self-doubt and extreme paranoia...
entrippy (where's my scanner darkly, eh? fuckin hollywood)
James Boyden
> In article <slrnaghf43.1...@fatcat.tygger.net>, solitaire wrote:
> [On actors appropros for dickheads]
>> Uh, but he's too butch.
>> PKD's heroes aren't just confused and frightened, they're confused and
>> frightened because they're *not* action heroes.
>> Even Tom is pushing it, but as soon as you cast Bruce, it just screams
>> "Action Hero"
>>
>> Woody Allen. That's the perfect PKD hero.
>
> I'll put in a vote for the main guy from Pi - he had the right amount of
> self-doubt and extreme paranoia...
Yeah... plus nothing says "everyman" to me like a hole drilled in your head.
Jimmy
--
For as we know, every gothic romance requires a large dark horse...
-- entrippy (nay!)
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<f...@thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 15:30:50 +1000,
> stranger.. <stra...@goth.net.spicedham> wrote:
> : Mr Q. Z. Diablo wrote
>
> ::Hate to do this to you, but SSS had absolutely nothing to do with SAW.
>
> : i remember them doing at least one song ('called 'Success' or 'Excess'
> : or
> : something like that) with SAW, after the hype had died off and
> : everybody had
> : just about forgotten them. It sounded nothing like the Sputniks and
> : everything like whatever else SAW were doing at the time. Hence, it's
> : something that sticks in my mind as how a band stops sounding like
> : themselves and becomes a product tuned for the marketplace (though i
> : suspect
> : with the Sputniks it was as much a joke as everything else they did).
>
>
> First single off second album. (Yes, there was a second album.)
"Dress for Excess". Absolute shite, it was.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
soli...@lioness.tygger.net wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:02:20 +0000 (UTC), Red Drag Diva
> <f...@thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
> >On 13 Jun 2002 02:52:40 GMT,
> >solitaire <soli...@lioness.tygger.net> wrote:
> >: On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 00:48:38 GMT, Mr Q. Z. Diablo
> >: <isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >:>I honestly feel that TOTAL RECALL more closely approximated Dick's
> >:>off-the-wall approach to plotting, Arnie's performance aside.
> >
> >: Arny was indeed hideously miscast. Tom Cruise is far closer to a PKD
> >: hero in that he has that weedy, normal guy thing going. IF only he can
> >: act appropriately.
> >
> >
> >I think Bruce Willis as a PKD hero would be interesting. An action hero
> >who looks confused and frightened all the time.
> >
> Uh, but he's too butch.
> PKD's heroes aren't just confused and frightened, they're confused and
> frightened because they're *not* action heroes.
> Even Tom is pushing it, but as soon as you cast Bruce, it just screams
> "Action Hero"
>
> Woody Allen. That's the perfect PKD hero.
A little old. All of PKD's heroes appear to be thirtysomething Walter
Mitty types.
CD
> [aside from kylie's la la la song, boomfunk mc's - freestyler and any
> good slathering of aqua and/or venga boys, top 40 sucks!]
Ah. "How to Ruin Your Music Cred in Two Words" by jarod.
OK, Kylie's 'Can't Get You Out Of My Head' (the la la la song) is one
of the most superbly crafted pop songs I have heard in a long time
(yes Sandro, I know we disagree on this one). Bomfunk MC's
'Freestyler' was quite good, and Aqua is amusing (in a
turn-your-brain-off novelty song kinda way). But Venga Boys fer
chrissake?????? Crappy music with dippy lyrics? I thought you had
more taste than that jarod, given that you are a musician yourself.
CD (send him on a trip to Ibiza on the Venga bus)
----
~carl...@thevortex.com~
petrolgoth
> "petrolgoth" wrote:
>
> >So did you fuck her?
>
> I assume you mean Kylie and not Lionel's sister.
Whatever pops yer cork Sandy.
> Although as they
> say, assumption is the mother of all fuckups.
Who's fucked Assumpta's mother now?
> Anyway, everyone's fucked Kylie except you, n4cat.
Bloody typical!
I'm always the bloody last to know.....
and I hate picking up sloppy seconds.
> Sandro - even my mum's had a go at her
'ave a go ya mug
petrolgoth
> >
> > Woody Allen. That's the perfect PKD hero.
>
> A little old. All of PKD's heroes appear to be thirtysomething Walter
> Mitty types.
Danny Kay!?!
Arrrgggghhhh
It burns it burns
must
erase
image
from
mind
of
Danny Kay
in
Total Recall
Lev Lafayette
On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Mr Q. Z. Diablo wrote:
> > : themselves and becomes a product tuned for the marketplace (though i
> > : suspect
> > : with the Sputniks it was as much a joke as everything else they did).
> >
> >
> > First single off second album. (Yes, there was a second album.)
>
> "Dress for Excess". Absolute shite, it was.
Oh not _absolute_ shite... Albinoni vs Star Wars was a pretty good opening
track. But the rest was pretty indifferent at best.
Apparently there is a third album as well!
Lev Lafayette.
l...@student.unimelb.edu.au http://www.student.unimelb.edu.au/~lev
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
<Pine.OSF.4.10.102061...@cassius.its.unimelb.edu.au>,
Lev Lafayette <l...@student.unimelb.edu.au> wrote:
> On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Mr Q. Z. Diablo wrote:
>
> > > : themselves and becomes a product tuned for the marketplace (though
> > > : i
> > > : suspect
> > > : with the Sputniks it was as much a joke as everything else they
> > > : did).
> > >
> > >
> > > First single off second album. (Yes, there was a second album.)
> >
> > "Dress for Excess". Absolute shite, it was.
>
> Oh not _absolute_ shite... Albinoni vs Star Wars was a pretty good
> opening
> track. But the rest was pretty indifferent at best.
I vaguely remember "Albinoni vs Star Wars". I had the albumen in
question on tape but I think it went the way of all my other cassettes.
> Apparently there is a third album as well!
After the second[1]? Methinks they'd had their day in the sun after the
first.
Mr Q. Z. D.
[1] - I suppose that would be the best time to release the third album.
jarod
i think i've only heard one or two of their pop songs... and i didn't
think much of them... but then i saw a filmclip and it was hilarious...
they were doing a very simular thing to aqua, and that was making cheesy
pop music for bucks... and having fun while doing it...
that i can appreciate!
aqua is cheesy fun [although more than 2 songs in a row gets painful]
and you can hear it in the music.... freestyler is an awesome song...
for most other pop artists i've got respect for you need to assess the
whole package, it's all in the production, marketing and sale.
that's what pop music is... [and as someone said something about pop
music being a genre, it's not actually a style of music, but what is
popular... and therefor defined by sales and popularity].
- jarod
--
GROUND UNDER PRODUCTIONS
goth-industrial-electronic
online mail-order + label
www.gup.net.au
www.tankt.com.au
Sandro
Morgan Jaffit <mor...@extro.vurt.net> wrote:
>In article <slrnaghf43.1...@fatcat.tygger.net>,
>solitaire wrote:
>[On actors appropros for dickheads]
>>Uh, but he's too butch.
>>PKD's heroes aren't just confused and frightened, they're >>confused and
frightened because they're *not* action heroes.
>>Even Tom is pushing it, but as soon as you cast Bruce, it just
>>screams "Action Hero"
>> Woody Allen. That's the perfect PKD hero.
If he were forty years younger. PKD heroes are essentially
frenetic pawns that move around according to the whims of others.
If they survive a situation at all it is rarely because of their
own actions, but moreso because of extremely high level deus
ex machina or luck. Never their own actions, yet they often play
a crucial role in situations, but usually only verbally. I'm
thinking of Gameplayers of Titan, We Can Build You, Clans of the
Alphane Moon, Penultimate Truth and Vulcan's Hammer.
Bruce Willis has played this role before, kinda. It was in a
little known film called Twelve Monkeys. People forget that
Bruce can be a fine dramatic actor because of the crap he's done,
and he can easily capture the essence of a PKD protagonist,
without question. He'd have to get someone to read him the
book of course.
Of course there are also the ones where the story just ends
without the protagonist doing anything at all and nothing
happening to them so you wonder what the fuck the point was,
so essentially you'd get Tim Roth to play those ones :)
Incorporating his other books with different styles etc, the
actor has to be able to convey a sense of almost neurotic
frenzy, pernicious self-doubt, continual doubting of their
own perception and the reality they find themselves in, and the
ability to perceive all the people around them as objects just
waiting to betray you. He really was a fucked up man.
>I'll put in a vote for the main guy from Pi - he had the right
>amount of self-doubt and extreme paranoia...
Perfect, but the way he played the role in Pi, not the way he
played a role in Requiem for a Dream (still gives me the creeps).
Sean Gullette, also co-wrote PI, if I recall everso correctly.
>entrippy (where's my scanner darkly, eh? fuckin hollywood)
They'd end up turning it into a "drugs r bad, mkay?" story
instead of the incredible identity conflict and hilarious drug
lifestyle story that it is. They'd need Noah Taylor for that
one. Playing the Fred (?) character like he played his character
in He Died With A Felafel in His Hand
Sandro - fanbois ahoy!
Belegdel
> (eg, when i actually sat
> down and listened to the words of 'Once in a Lifetime' and realised what it
> was about. Even though it's, as a whole, terribly fake and cliched,
I think this song's gotten a bad rap thanks to it having been played to
death in clubs.
At least, I didn't find it cliche.
> the one
> line of "i find myself feeling lonely" somehow stuck me right in the guts
> when i understood the context,
The line "don't you know that you're losing so much this time." is what
struck me. An admission of one's own value isn't what I saw as typical
thinking for a suicide (being what I interpret the song to be about).
It made it seem like as much an act of hatred and spite as of despair,
and that adds something to it that takes it beyond cliche.
The focus on overcoming fear shows a character that's found inner
strength but it's off in a screwy direction. I kinda like that aspect
of it too - tragic I suppose.
Then again, maybe I've just over-analysed it.
Sadly, the video doesn't complement the impact of the song :(
>probably because i hadn't seen it coming with
> the happy sounding melodies and disinterested vocals).
I used to feel guilty dancing to "Amelia". Super danceable music, really unhappy lyrics.
But then, The Mission are masters of that (and songs about sex).
--
Belegdel | "I want more than action and special effects,
To think about what might happen next,
A Hero not a weapon shop with pecs,
A Heroine not an excuse for sex." - Tom Smith
Lionel
"Sandro" <cein...@excite.com> said:
>
>"petrolgoth" <n4...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>>"Lionel" wrote
>>>"Mr Q. Z. Diablo" said:
>
>>>[Kylie Moggy]
>
>>>PS: She went to high school with my little sister. (Camberwell
>>>High)
>
>>So did you fuck her?
>
>I assume you mean Kylie and not Lionel's sister.
Mind you, my sister's better looking than Kyles, anyway.
Trayce
<T.Nancarrow...@gu.edu.au> wrote:
>
>The line "don't you know that you're losing so much this time." is what
>struck me. An admission of one's own value isn't what I saw as typical
>thinking for a suicide (being what I interpret the song to be about).
>It made it seem like as much an act of hatred and spite as of despair,
>and that adds something to it that takes it beyond cliche.
>The focus on overcoming fear shows a character that's found inner
>strength but it's off in a screwy direction. I kinda like that aspect
>of it too - tragic I suppose.
Hmm. I knew the song was a very sad one but I never actually read all
the lyrics properly.
Now that I have I'm thinking the narrator/singer is addressing either
death, or "god".
"You made me doubt, you made me fear
But now I'm not the same
You took my wife, my unborn son...
Torn into the deep of the ocean
I don't pretend that I love you
'Cause there is nothing left to loose"
is a good example...
Anyway the thing I'd been meaning to add to this thread is one to go
against what a lot of you have said - and thats that lyrics are really
really important to me with songs I love. Sure there's also songs I
adore that have trashy lyrics, but to me music and poetry are
intertwined, and I love songsmiths who can write lyrics that move me.
Kirstin Hersh/Throwing Muses, Red House Painters, Jeff Buckley,
American Music Club, Leonard Cohen ... masters of words one and all. I
can't help but smile at the sweetly blunt image of a line like "no
more breath in my hair, or ladies underwear tossed up over the alarm
clock" from "Medicine Bottle" by the Red House Painters. A more moving
lament to losing a lover I cant think of :)
Anyhoo... I'm just a terrible old sentimentalist really... I stop now
before I get all sad.
Trayce (fnuh)
--
"and like a medicine bottle, in my hand i will hold you
and swallow you slowly, as to last me a lifetime
without holding too tight" (Red House Painters)
http://www.memorygongs.com
Jay Superfluous
> > > First single off second album. (Yes, there was a second album.)
> >
> > "Dress for Excess". Absolute shite, it was.
>
> Oh not _absolute_ shite... Albinoni vs Star Wars was a pretty good opening
> track. But the rest was pretty indifferent at best.
>
> Apparently there is a third album as well!
>
>
> Lev Lafayette.
The third album is "Blak Elvis". Elvis covers . . . I have the T-shirt,
anyway.
They're meant to be doing a "proper studio album" soon.
I wonder how grey Degville is under the wigs? (Tony James was already bald,
being a bass player, after all . . ."
Jay Superfluous
Sandro
ca...@tiggermail.com (CD) wrote:
>jarod <ja...@gravity.net.au> wrote in message
news:<3D06B9B3...@gravity.net.au>...
>>[aside from kylie's la la la song, boomfunk mc's - freestyler
>>and any good slathering of aqua and/or venga boys, top 40
>>sucks!]
>Ah. "How to Ruin Your Music Cred in Two Words" by jarod.
>OK, Kylie's 'Can't Get You Out Of My Head' (the la la la song)
>is one of the most superbly crafted pop songs I have heard in a
>long time (yes Sandro, I know we disagree on this one).
My darling Seedy. I am quite fond of you. Please don't make me
hate you. That song is like a dentist's drill being applied to
the base of my skull. But you are all welcome to like whatever
you want to like. Just don't expect me to have any respect for
any of you :)
>Bomfunk MC's 'Freestyler' was quite good, and Aqua is amusing
>(in a turn-your-brain-off novelty song kinda way). But Venga
>Boys fer chrissake?????? Crappy music with dippy lyrics? I
>thought you had more taste than that jarod, given that you are
>a musician yourself.
You people make me sick :)
>CD (send him on a trip to Ibiza on the Venga bus)
He'd fit right in.
Sandro - Drinkin' and Shaggin'
--
"The ability to let that which does not matter slide." - Fight Club
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
> OK, Kylie's 'Can't Get You Out Of My Head' (the la la la song) is one
> of the most superbly crafted pop songs I have heard in a long time
> (yes Sandro, I know we disagree on this one). Bomfunk MC's
> 'Freestyler' was quite good,
and super electric. That was more of a breakdance feel.
Liked that a lot more...
>and Aqua is amusing (in a
> turn-your-brain-off novelty song kinda way).
yeah but also in a nice melody happy boppy kind of way too...
Dr jones is an excellent song, though barbie girl got old fast.
> But Venga Boys fer
> chrissake?????? Crappy music with dippy lyrics? I thought you had
> more taste than that jarod, given that you are a musician yourself.
>
Have to agree here. venga boys are painful. I've never heard a song of
theirs I liked... and we had a neighbour who used to love thet going to
ibiza song. They had the single (containing 4 versions of the one song, I
believe) and would play it on repeat for hours at a time. We would fight
back, at the time my flaymate, christian, would practice DJing really loud
with his psytrance collection (The most obnoxious for of music known to man.
Thank christ he finally grew out of that stuff!) and I'd leave the house for
a couple of hours. They moved out first, so I guess we won.
> CD (send him on a trip to Ibiza on the Venga bus)
naaah, imagine what he'd be like when he got back.
julian
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
> Yet name a piece of orchaestral music written according to the
> "formula" of Beethoven's Ode to Joy which is as well known as
> the Ode to Joy. Refer to me a Requiem structured like Mozart's
> Requiem, or as brilliant and compelling.
Sorry, I'm not good enough at music theory to do that. And my knowlege of
classical music is pretty thin.
> I have collected a
> large number of Requiems on CD, and they all follow a format, but
> they are as fundamentally different from each other as if they
> were written by alien species.
but many of them will have been written with the same melodic/harmonic
rules.
Not necessarily restricted in key, metre, or rhythm, but in the note
intervals they go through, even general melodic direction that they follow
throughout the piece.
> Gorecki). So I don't see how form has to dictate substance. The
> combinations of notes are not infinite, but close enough to it
> for there to be millions of different sounding pieces of music
> possible.
>
> If fifteen pieces of music sound the same, have the same formula,
> same theme, same lyrics, then I don't need the fifteen pieces of
> music. I need one of them.
>
well it depends, if you like the formula, it can be nice to listren to the
different interpretations. coming back to modern day music, what about
remixes of songs? It can be nice to hear a song you like from another
perspective, can't it?
But having the same form doesnt mean that all the lyrics and theme have to
be the same. Look at a lot of blues, very strictly based on the one scale,
usually in the key of A, but there was a lot of people doing wildly
different things within the same basic musical form.
> Sandro - form != substance
>
I agree, but form is definately very important, and maybe its the substance
behind different interpretations of the same form that makes the different
interpretations all worth knowing about. And form is good in that it
provides a structure and context to place substance, if that is what you
want to do.
Mr Q. Z. Diablo
> > If fifteen pieces of music sound the same, have the same formula,
> > same theme, same lyrics, then I don't need the fifteen pieces of
> > music. I need one of them.
> >
> well it depends, if you like the formula, it can be nice to listren to
> the
> different interpretations.
The KLF and the Shamen. Write the same number 1 hit several times and
make millions. It may have been the one song per band but it was a
bloody good song in each case.
> But having the same form doesnt mean that all the lyrics and theme have
> to
> be the same. Look at a lot of blues, very strictly based on the one
> scale,
> usually in the key of A,
¿Qué?
Forgive my ignorance but I thought that the "E Blues" (E minor being the
saddest of all keys) was the most common, mainly because many guitarists
find it the easiest.
Mr Q. Z. D.
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
> ...And all of the composers that I named (and the countless others to
> which I alluded) broke those rules almost constantly. Even Bach, and he
> devised hundreds of said rules.
>
yeah he may have broken rules, but he followed more than he would break at
any time....
old classical music was written under the influence of a lot of rules,
defining musical structure.
And it was like that for a long time. The thing is, that nowdays, with our
exposure a lot of very un-melodic music its hard to tell the difference
between the older pieces, but back then it was as plain as right and wrong.
Best example I can come up with is the famous first playing of Stravinsky's
"Rite of spring" Now OK there was also an issue with the coreography too,
but it basically started a riot!!!
http://www.cs.hut.fi/~pno/Music/Stravinsky/RiteOfSpring.html
Now have a listen to rite of spring, and listen to something by mozart... to
modern ears there isn't really a lot of difference (apart from the obvious
fact that they are different pieces) but both are recognisable as "classical
music" Back in 1913, Rite of spring would have been deemed not music by a
lot of people at the time.
julian
(damn.... what was it we were actually talking about again?!?)
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
> oh i missed yer birthfdee .. *doh*
> hope you had a gopod one old man ;p
yeah.... 28 now..... that must be almost as old as you, eh??
:-P
redcountess
<isaac_azathoth-31D...@newsroom.utas.edu.au>, Mr Q Z Diablo
wrote:
>
>In article <slrnaghf43.1...@fatcat.tygger.net>,
>soli...@lioness.tygger.net wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 13 Jun 2002 13:02:20 +0000 (UTC), Red Drag Diva
>> <f...@thingy.apana.org.au> wrote:
>> >I think Bruce Willis as a PKD hero would be interesting. An action hero
>> >who looks confused and frightened all the time.
>> >
>> Uh, but he's too butch.
>> PKD's heroes aren't just confused and frightened, they're confused and
>> frightened because they're *not* action heroes.
>> Even Tom is pushing it, but as soon as you cast Bruce, it just screams
>> "Action Hero"
>>
>> Woody Allen. That's the perfect PKD hero.
>
>A little old. All of PKD's heroes appear to be thirtysomething Walter
>Mitty types.
Ah, then William H.Macy would be a better approximate :-)
Liz
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
> Forgive my ignorance but I thought that the "E Blues" (E minor being the
> saddest of all keys) was the most common, mainly because many guitarists
> find it the easiest.
>
A lot of keyboard based music is in C, where guitar based music is often in
E or A, because its harder to play in C on a guitar.
Guitars are strung (normally - and we are talikng about musical rules here)
from low to high... E, A, D, G, B, E
Its just as easy to play in A, as it is in E. But playing in A gives you
room to go down further if you want.... so more guitar music is in A. When I
used to learn guitar years ago, and my teacher was showing me blues stuff,
I'm pretty sure it was all in A.
blithespirit
"Mr Q. Z. Diablo" <isaac_a...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> In article <3d082dd6$1...@news.alphalink.com.au>, "stranger.."
> <stra...@goth.net.spicedham> wrote:
> > Does Kylie write her own songs?
>
> Some of 'em, I gather.
>
> I doubt that the real "high points" are her own efforts, though. Unless
> she writes the words (which are shite, anyway).
>
> I would be very surprised if she wrote either "Can't Get You Out of my
> Head" or "Shocked"; let's just put it that way.
She definitely didn't write "Can't get you....la la bloody la". That was
written by a team of producers, then recorded and released by some other
pop strumpet, before Kylie did her version.
God i hate that song. There are in fact other Kylie songs I can tolerate
though...mostly from her supposed 'flop' 'experimental' album...
blithe
(b is for Breathe, and Cowboy Style...and that other one...)
--
If they can get you asking the wrong questions, they don't have to worry
about the answers. --Thomas Pynchon
blithespirit
"Sandro" <cein...@excite.com> wrote:
>
> Bruce Willis has played this role before, kinda. It was in a
> little known film called Twelve Monkeys.
Little known? Really? I loved that film...
:-)
>People forget that
> Bruce can be a fine dramatic actor because of the crap he's done,
Agree up to a point...
> and he can easily capture the essence of a PKD protagonist,
> without question. He'd have to get someone to read him the
> book of course.
LOL...
Oi, who's dissing Noah Taylor?
blithe
(not adding much but me toos to old posts...)
slaveangel
"Lev Lafayette" <l...@student.unimelb.edu.au> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.4.10.102061...@cassius.its.unimelb.edu.au...
:
: On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Mr Q. Z. Diablo wrote:
:
: > > : themselves and becomes a product tuned for the marketplace (though i
: > > : suspect
: > > : with the Sputniks it was as much a joke as everything else they
did).
: > >
: > >
: > > First single off second album. (Yes, there was a second album.)
: >
: > "Dress for Excess". Absolute shite, it was.
:
: Oh not _absolute_ shite... Albinoni vs Star Wars was a pretty good opening
: track. But the rest was pretty indifferent at best.
:
: Apparently there is a third album as well!
out now aparantly
New studio album....."piratespace"
from
http://www.sputnikworld.ndirect.co.uk/contents.html
they seem to be giging in places like japan (surprise) and last month they
did a show with Echo and the bunnymen in Macedonia :p
A*
--
http://www.geocities.com/slaveangel_2000
We are here to drink beer ... and [to] live our lives so well that Death
will tremble to take us.
-Charles Bukowski
Kat
>: Tell that to someone like Schöenberg ("Mr Tone Row"). I believe that
>: Cage and Berio wrote tone row pieces.
>And that Schoenberg started off doing much more conventional stuff
>before going all twelve-tone.
Well he had to start somewhere. He *developed* the twelve tone system.
And as I recall, Cage also wrote aleotoric music (got some rice,
anyone?)
Kat
Kat
>yeah he may have broken rules, but he followed more than he would break at
>any time....
>old classical music was written under the influence of a lot of rules,
>defining musical structure.
<snip>
>Now have a listen to rite of spring, and listen to something by mozart... to
>modern ears there isn't really a lot of difference (apart from the obvious
>fact that they are different pieces) but both are recognisable as "classical
>music" Back in 1913, Rite of spring would have been deemed not music by a
>lot of people at the time.
I'd certainly bloody hope that (even to "modern ears") people could
tell the difference between generic Mozart and "The Rite of Spring."
And I think the Rite also goes beyond most people's definition of
"classical" music. Orchestral music is a much better descriptor (I'm
not even going to go into how 'classical' in fact refers to a specific
period of music (and art) history from the about 1700-1780 (ish) ).
Kat
Morgan Jaffit
> Incorporating his other books with different styles etc, the
> actor has to be able to convey a sense of almost neurotic
> frenzy, pernicious self-doubt, continual doubting of their
> own perception and the reality they find themselves in, and the
> ability to perceive all the people around them as objects just
> waiting to betray you. He really was a fucked up man.
Indeed. The real question is, who could play the dark haired girl (there's
always one)... Depending on which novel, we're looking for a 20-35 year old
woman, beautiful, sexual and probably a junkie. Prime requirement - make
the protagonists life a living hell...
For some reason (and I suspect it's Strange Days) I suspect Juliette Lewis
could probably pull it off... despite the fact that I've hated her in
nearly everything else shes done...
Actually, wozisname from Strange Days (Lenny) would make a perfect PKD
hero. In fact, he pretty much ios..
> Perfect, but the way he played the role in Pi, not the way he
> played a role in Requiem for a Dream (still gives me the creeps).
> Sean Gullette, also co-wrote PI, if I recall everso correctly.
Yus, you are correct.
entrippy (JJ180)
Miss Havisham
tra...@somethingorother.com wrote on 14/6/02 1:39 PM:
> Anyway the thing I'd been meaning to add to this thread is one to go
> against what a lot of you have said - and thats that lyrics are really
> really important to me with songs I love. Sure there's also songs I
> adore that have trashy lyrics, but to me music and poetry are
> intertwined, and I love songsmiths who can write lyrics that move me.
I'm with you there.
There's a lot of songs out there that I love and I couldn't even tell you
the lyrics, but the ones that make the biggest impact (for me) are the ones
with the great lyrics. Often it may only be a couple of words
"loveless fascination"
or a line
"kiss me out of desire baby, not consolation"
"I'll give you anything you want, hundred dollar bills" :)
but they're the songs that _really_ sing to me.
Miss H.
I knew a girl called Nikki
I guess you could say she was a sex fiend,
I met her in a hotel lobby
masturbating with a magazine
(touches me every time)
mr julian (w/ spamguard)
> I'd certainly bloody hope that (even to "modern ears") people could
> tell the difference between generic Mozart and "The Rite of Spring."
> And I think the Rite also goes beyond most people's definition of
> "classical" music.
I'm not sure that it does... I read about the reception this piece had when
it was played, then got to listen to it. And while it is very interesting, I
dont think that to modern ears it is really that disturbing. Or *that* far
away from other orchestral music.. Nothing like how it was percieved not
even a century ago. Because the rules the audiences these days expect their
music to follow are a lot less restrictive.
> Orchestral music is a much better descriptor (I'm
> not even going to go into how 'classical' in fact refers to a specific
> period of music (and art) history from the about 1700-1780 (ish) ).
>
aah - you learn something new every day! Can I go back and replace about
half my references to classical music with references to orchestral now??
Kat
>I'm not sure that it does... I read about the reception this piece had when
>it was played, then got to listen to it. And while it is very interesting, I
>dont think that to modern ears it is really that disturbing. Or *that* far
>away from other orchestral music.. Nothing like how it was percieved not
>even a century ago. Because the rules the audiences these days expect their
>music to follow are a lot less restrictive.
Well, to put it into simple terms, it sure ain't music you can tap
your foot to. And there is nothing even *vaguely* resembling
functional harmony... this is really difficult to discuss without
going into musical analysis terminology. I still think that people
listening to the Rite in comparison to just about *anything* written
before it will be able to note the screaming differences.
And anything *new* over the course of music history was always
received with a mixed reaction. We currently exist in a period of time
unusual because we listen to and perform music from the past. But in
his time, Beethoven was revolutionary (for example).
>aah - you learn something new every day! Can I go back and replace about
>half my references to classical music with references to orchestral now??
Well, no.... and this one new piece of information is but a drop in
the ocean, my young apprentice.
:)
Kat
Miss Havisham
blithespirit at foxfor...@SPAMTRAPmac.com wrote on 14/6/02 7:25 PM:
> In article <3d095956$1...@nexus.comcen.com.au>,
> "Sandro" <cein...@excite.com> wrote:
>> Bruce Willis has played this role before, kinda. It was in a
>> little known film called Twelve Monkeys.
> Little known? Really? I loved that film...
> :-)
*whispers to blithe* I think the little known bit was sarcasm.
Think Brad Pitt/Madeleine Stowe/Terry Gilliam/mainstream cinema release...
>> People forget that
>> Bruce can be a fine dramatic actor because of the crap he's done,
>
> Agree up to a point...
What about Pulp Fiction? The Sixth Sense? I think Bruce rocks.
(But then I also liked the series Moonlighting)
Miss H. (oops, did I say that out loud?)
Dark Star
Belegdel wrote:
>
> The line "don't you know that you're losing so much this time." is what
> struck me. An admission of one's own value isn't what I saw as typical
> thinking for a suicide (being what I interpret the song to be about).
> It made it seem like as much an act of hatred and spite as of despair,
> and that adds something to it that takes it beyond cliche.
No, I think that line shows that they've captured the thoughts of a
suicide perfectly - there is usually a bitter revenge aspect of
"they'll all be sorry when I'm dead" to a suicide attempt.
--
Dark Star
Jimmy: Some days it just doesn't pay to gnaw through the restraints...