Question of great significance

[felix_unger]

Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in boiling
water we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta. So
shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them? The eggs
aren't boiling, only the water is. I'm sure the great minds that inhabit
these forums will have an answer.

--
rgds,

Pete
-------
"If Julia is the answer, then what was the stupid question!"

[John G]

felix_unger formulated on Monday :

> Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in boiling water
> we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta. So shouldn't we
> be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them? The eggs aren't boiling,
> only the water is. I'm sure the great minds that inhabit these forums will
> have an answer.

The answer of course is
You Boil eggs in their shell
You Fry egs in fat.
You Poach broken eggs in water.

Have you ever poached pasta? lol

--
John G

[Pelican]

"John G" <gree...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message
news:mP6dnWSAk_v22A3M...@westnet.com.au...

So, you unashamedly put up your hand as one of them "great minds", eh?

[Trevor]

"felix_unger" <m...@nothere.com> wrote in message
news:avatem...@mid.individual.net...

>
> Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in boiling
> water we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta. So
> shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them? The eggs
> aren't boiling, only the water is.

Who says the egg contents don't boil, when you fry them you can easily see
the whites bubble as they boil. Same when hard boiled even if you don't see
it.

Trevor.

[Pelican]

"Trevor" <tre...@home.net> wrote in message
news:kmpp9o$nqj$2...@speranza.aioe.org...

Boiling point depends on air pressure. The air pressure inside an egg is
not obviously the same as the air pressure of the egg outside its shell.
Basic physics.

[Rod Speed]

felix_unger <m...@nothere.com> wrote

> Why do we say we boil eggs?

Just another quirk of the language.

> When we cook pasta by placing it in boiling water we
> don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta.

But there are a lot of other ways of cooking eggs.

There arent with pasta.

> So shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them?

No, because that's just one way of cooking eggs.

We also say boiled potatoes, because there
are other ways of cooking potatoes too.

> The eggs aren't boiling, only the water is.

Its too long winded to say they are cooked in boiling water.

> I'm sure the great minds that inhabit
> these forums will have an answer.

Not a chance.

[John G]

After serious thinking Trevor wrote :

Boiling is in water at 100deg C at NTP.
Frying is at some questionable temp depending on the oil and the fire.
:-Z

--
John G

[felix_unger]

On 13-May-2013 4:20 PM, Rod Speed wrote:
> felix_unger <m...@nothere.com> wrote
>> Why do we say we boil eggs?
>
> Just another quirk of the language.
>> When we cook pasta by placing it in boiling water we don't say we're
>> boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta.
>
> But there are a lot of other ways of cooking eggs.
> There arent with pasta.

ahh.. good point

>> So shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them?
>
> No, because that's just one way of cooking eggs.
> We also say boiled potatoes, because there are other ways of cooking
> potatoes too.
>> The eggs aren't boiling, only the water is.
>
> Its too long winded to say they are cooked in boiling water.
>> I'm sure the great minds that inhabit these forums will have an answer.
>
> Not a chance.

so you're excusing yourself as a great mind then?.. :)

[Trevor]

"John G" <gree...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message

news:i8OdnZYoFa7eGw3M...@westnet.com.au...

> After serious thinking Trevor wrote :
>> "felix_unger" <m...@nothere.com> wrote in message
>> news:avatem...@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in boiling
>>> water we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta. So
>>> shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them? The eggs
>>> aren't boiling, only the water is.
>>
>> Who says the egg contents don't boil, when you fry them you can easily
>> see the whites bubble as they boil. Same when hard boiled even if you
>> don't see it.
>
> Boiling is in water at 100deg C at NTP.

Right, so go on tell us at what temperature egg whites boil at?

Trevor.

[Rod Speed]

"felix_unger" <m...@nothere.com> wrote in message

news:avbl52...@mid.individual.net...

I NEVER excuse myself.

And don't you forget that or its summary execution for you, boy.

[John G]

Trevor pretended :

Yes you just cut what i raely said to make an argument did nt you.

"Frying is at some questionable temp depending on the oil and the
fire."

I don't know and I did not try to prove I knew it is just different.
B-)

--
John G

[Frank Slootweg]

felix_unger <m...@nothere.com> wrote:
>
> Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in boiling
> water we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta. So
> shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them? The eggs
> aren't boiling, only the water is. I'm sure the great minds that inhabit
> these forums will have an answer.

We Dutch just say "cook" ("koken") and leave it at that. AFAIK, we
don't have a word for "boil". KISS.

[Rod Speed]

"Frank Slootweg" <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote in message
news:avchbi...@mid.individual.net...

That doesn�t allow you to distinguish between boiled eggs and fried eggs.

Or boiled potatoes and roasted potatoes either.

> AFAIK, we don't have a word for "boil".

Google translate appears to call boil water, cook water.

> KISS.

Too crude IMO with the word boiled for food.

[Frank Slootweg]

Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
> "Frank Slootweg" <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote in message
> news:avchbi...@mid.individual.net...
> > felix_unger <m...@nothere.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in boiling
> >> water we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta. So
> >> shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them? The eggs
> >> aren't boiling, only the water is. I'm sure the great minds that inhabit
> >> these forums will have an answer.
>
> > We Dutch just say "cook" ("koken") and leave it at that.
>

> That doesn?t allow you to distinguish between boiled eggs and fried eggs.

I was referring to the example, i.e. boil eggs and cook pasta, for
which we both would say "cook" ("koken").

But that we don't have a word for boiled, doesn't mean that we don't
have a word for fried. So while boiled eggs are "gekookte eieren"
(cooked eggs), fried eggs are "gebakken eieren".

> Or boiled potatoes and roasted potatoes either.

No problem either: "gekookte aardappelen" and "geroosterde aardappelen".

> > AFAIK, we don't have a word for "boil".
>
> Google translate appears to call boil water, cook water.

Yes, correct, that's what I meant (with "We Dutch just say "cook"
("koken")").

> > KISS.
>
> Too crude IMO with the word boiled for food.

No, we also make distictions, just *different* ones than you do.

[Rod Speed]

"Frank Slootweg" <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote in message

news:avcv9m...@mid.individual.net...

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> "Frank Slootweg" <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:avchbi...@mid.individual.net...
>> > felix_unger <m...@nothere.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in
>> >> boiling
>> >> water we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta. So
>> >> shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them? The
>> >> eggs
>> >> aren't boiling, only the water is. I'm sure the great minds that
>> >> inhabit
>> >> these forums will have an answer.
>>
>> > We Dutch just say "cook" ("koken") and leave it at that.
>>
>> That doesn?t allow you to distinguish between boiled eggs and fried eggs.

> I was referring to the example, i.e. boil eggs and cook
> pasta, for which we both would say "cook" ("koken").

And I was pointing out the problem that arises when there
is no specific term for boiled eggs so they have to be called
cooked eggs and that also describes plenty of other sorts of
other than raw eggs.

> But that we don't have a word for boiled, doesn't mean that we
> don't have a word for fried. So while boiled eggs are "gekookte
> eieren" (cooked eggs), fried eggs are "gebakken eieren".

But you still have a problem with actually describing
boiled eggs and boiled potatoes unambiguously.

And boiled water in the sense of boiled to sterilise
it when it comes from a river etc in spades or when
talking about making a decent cup of tea etc.

>> Or boiled potatoes and roasted potatoes either.

> No problem either: "gekookte aardappelen"
> and "geroosterde aardappelen".

Pity about boiled water which just ends up being
cooked water without being able to specifically
and succinctly say that its been boiled.

>>> AFAIK, we don't have a word for "boil".

>> Google translate appears to call boil water, cook water.

> Yes, correct, that's what I meant (with "We Dutch just say "cook"
> ("koken")").

Yes, but its not specific enough when you need to succinctly
say that the water does need to be boiled to say sterilise it
or to make a decent cup of tea etc. Its too crude to just say
its cooked water when that covers water that�s just heated
but not enough to boil it.

>>> KISS.

>> Too crude IMO with the word boiled for food.

> No, we also make distictions, just *different* ones than you do.

But you don�t have a nice succinct term for boiled water, boiled
eggs, boiled potatoes, boiled cabbage etc etc etc that unambigiously
and succinctly describes exactly how its cooked.

Like I said, too crude by half.

[Wolfgang Wildeblood]

On May 14, 4:04 am, Frank Slootweg <t...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> > Or boiled potatoes and roasted potatoes either.
>
>   No problem either: "gekookte aardappelen" and "geroosterde aardappelen".

Earth apples? That makes me smile. In a good way.

[ikanbuntal]

Shaft it up your arse if you have nothing better to do

"felix_unger" wrote in message news:avatem...@mid.individual.net...

[Frank Slootweg]

Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Frank Slootweg" <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote in message
> news:avcv9m...@mid.individual.net...
> > Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> "Frank Slootweg" <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote in message
> >> news:avchbi...@mid.individual.net...
> >> > felix_unger <m...@nothere.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in
> >> >> boiling water we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're
> >> >> cooking pasta. So shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when
> >> >> we 'boil' them? The eggs aren't boiling, only the water is. I'm
> >> >> sure the great minds that inhabit these forums will have an
> >> >> answer.
> >>
> >> > We Dutch just say "cook" ("koken") and leave it at that.
> >>
> >> That doesn?t allow you to distinguish between boiled eggs and fried eggs.
>
> > I was referring to the example, i.e. boil eggs and cook
> > pasta, for which we both would say "cook" ("koken").
>
> And I was pointing out the problem that arises when there
> is no specific term for boiled eggs so they have to be called
> cooked eggs and that also describes plenty of other sorts of
> other than raw eggs.

[Bear with me, the good/explanatory bit is at the end.]

Nope, it doesn't in Dutch. Dutch "gekookte eieren" is your "boiled
eggs", nothing more, nothing less. Any other sort of (English) "cooked
eggs" are NOT "gekookte eieren", but "<something_else> eieren", for
exampled "gepocheerde eieren" (poached eggs). So "gekookte eieren" is
unambiguous.

> > But that we don't have a word for boiled, doesn't mean that we
> > don't have a word for fried. So while boiled eggs are "gekookte
> > eieren" (cooked eggs), fried eggs are "gebakken eieren".
>
> But you still have a problem with actually describing
> boiled eggs and boiled potatoes unambiguously.

Nope. "gekookte" is unambiguous.

> And boiled water in the sense of boiled to sterilise
> it when it comes from a river etc in spades or when
> talking about making a decent cup of tea etc.

Nope. "gekookt water" has been heated to 100 degrees C. If lower, it
would be "warm water" or "opgewarmd water" (heated water).

> >> Or boiled potatoes and roasted potatoes either.
>
> > No problem either: "gekookte aardappelen"
> > and "geroosterde aardappelen".
>
> Pity about boiled water which just ends up being
> cooked water without being able to specifically
> and succinctly say that its been boiled.

Nope. See above.

> >>> AFAIK, we don't have a word for "boil".
>
> >> Google translate appears to call boil water, cook water.
>
> > Yes, correct, that's what I meant (with "We Dutch just say "cook"
> > ("koken")").
>
> Yes, but its not specific enough when you need to succinctly
> say that the water does need to be boiled to say sterilise it
> or to make a decent cup of tea etc. Its too crude to just say

> its cooked water when that covers water that?s just heated

> but not enough to boil it.

Nope. It's 'too crude' in *English*. In *Dutch*, it's totally
unambiguous.

> >>> KISS.
>
> >> Too crude IMO with the word boiled for food.
>
> > No, we also make distictions, just *different* ones than you do.
>

> But you don?t have a nice succinct term for boiled water, boiled

> eggs, boiled potatoes, boiled cabbage etc etc etc that unambigiously
> and succinctly describes exactly how its cooked.
>
> Like I said, too crude by half.

False. See above.

It boils :-) down to the fact that the English verb (to) "cook" has
*different* meanings than the Dutch verb "koken". Yours are unambiguous
and ours are unambiguous, they just not the *same*.

I'll use some small examples to explain the differences and the
non-ambiguities:

Generic/Unspecific:

"I am going to cook" <--> "Ik ga koken"

Specific:

"I am going to boil water/eggs" <--> "Ik ga water/eieren koken"

"I am going to bake patatoes" <--> "Ik ga aardappelen bakken"

I.e. *we* use "koken" for generic/unspecific *and* for fluids (water,
milk, soup, etc.), but *not* for any non-fluid specific.

You use "cook" for generic/unspecific and use "boil" for water (and
for some other fluids? milk?).

So while we use one less word ("boil"), the context generic/unspecific
or specific, allows *double*, *unambiguous*, use of the word "koken".

And this ends this lesson "Dutch for beginners" (dummies? :-))!

To the OP: Thanks for asking the question. It gave me and my wife the
opportunity to figure out why we use the verb "koken" the way we do.
BTW, the wife just started her cooking, she's baking a cake. :-)

[Frank Slootweg]

Yes, correct, "earth apples". Glad it made you smile.

BTW, the French (*who*!? :-)) say the same "pommes de terre".

Going by your first name, would it be "Kartofflen" for you?

[Damian]

"John G" <gree...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in message

news:mP6dnWSAk_v22A3M...@westnet.com.au...

I tried poaching some whole meal pasta the other day(Yeah, I'm a
pre-diabetic. :) )
The outcome was disastrous!!!
I was arrested for poaching! :(

[Rod Speed]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote

>>>>> felix_unger <m...@nothere.com> wrote

>>>>>> Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in
>>>>>> boiling water we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're
>>>>>> cooking pasta. So shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when
>>>>>> we 'boil' them? The eggs aren't boiling, only the water is. I'm
>>>>>> sure the great minds that inhabit these forums will have an
>>>>>> answer.

>>>>> We Dutch just say "cook" ("koken") and leave it at that.

>>>> That doesn?t allow you to distinguish between boiled eggs and fried
>>>> eggs.

>>> I was referring to the example, i.e. boil eggs and cook
>>> pasta, for which we both would say "cook" ("koken").

>> And I was pointing out the problem that arises when there
>> is no specific term for boiled eggs so they have to be called
>> cooked eggs and that also describes plenty of other sorts of
>> other than raw eggs.

> [Bear with me, the good/explanatory bit is at the end.]

> Nope, it doesn't in Dutch. Dutch "gekookte eieren" is your "boiled
> eggs", nothing more, nothing less. Any other sort of (English) "cooked
> eggs" are NOT "gekookte eieren", but "<something_else> eieren", for
> exampled "gepocheerde eieren" (poached eggs). So "gekookte eieren" is
> unambiguous.

But doesn�t succinctly spell out exactly how they are cooked.

>> > But that we don't have a word for boiled, doesn't mean that we
>> > don't have a word for fried. So while boiled eggs are "gekookte
>> > eieren" (cooked eggs), fried eggs are "gebakken eieren".

>> But you still have a problem with actually describing
>> boiled eggs and boiled potatoes unambiguously.

> Nope. "gekookte" is unambiguous.

But doesn�t succinctly spell out exactly how they are cooked.

>> And boiled water in the sense of boiled to sterilise
>> it when it comes from a river etc in spades or when
>> talking about making a decent cup of tea etc.

> Nope. "gekookt water" has been heated to 100 degrees C. If lower,
> it would be "warm water" or "opgewarmd water" (heated water).

Even sillier. It isnt heated to 100 degrees C when done at other than sea
level.

>>>> Or boiled potatoes and roasted potatoes either.

>>> No problem either: "gekookte aardappelen"
>>> and "geroosterde aardappelen".

>> Pity about boiled water which just ends up being
>> cooked water without being able to specifically
>> and succinctly say that its been boiled.

> Nope. See above.

Yep. See above.

>>>>> AFAIK, we don't have a word for "boil".

>>>> Google translate appears to call boil water, cook water.

>>> Yes, correct, that's what I meant (with "We Dutch just say "cook"
>>> ("koken")").

>> Yes, but its not specific enough when you need to succinctly
>> say that the water does need to be boiled to say sterilise it
>> or to make a decent cup of tea etc. Its too crude to just say
>> its cooked water when that covers water that?s just heated
>> but not enough to boil it.

> Nope. It's 'too crude' in *English*.

Mindlessly silly when it spells out exactly how its 'cooked'

> In *Dutch*, it's totally unambiguous.

Bullshit.

>> >>> KISS.

>>>> Too crude IMO with the word boiled for food.

>>> No, we also make distictions, just *different* ones than you do.

>> But you don?t have a nice succinct term for boiled water, boiled
>> eggs, boiled potatoes, boiled cabbage etc etc etc that unambigiously
>> and succinctly describes exactly how its cooked.

>> Like I said, too crude by half.

> False. See above.

True. See above.

> It boils :-) down to the fact that the English verb (to) "cook"
> has *different* meanings than the Dutch verb "koken".

Yours doesn�t exclusively mean boiled.

> Yours are unambiguous and
> ours are unambiguous,

Wrong with plenty of other uses of the word cook in dutch.

> they just not the *same*.

> I'll use some small examples to explain
> the differences and the non-ambiguities:

> Generic/Unspecific:

> "I am going to cook" <--> "Ik ga koken"

And I am going to boil isnt.

> Specific:

> "I am going to boil water/eggs" <--> "Ik ga water/eieren koken"

> "I am going to bake patatoes" <--> "Ik ga aardappelen bakken"

> I.e. *we* use "koken" for generic/unspecific *and* for fluids
> (water, milk, soup, etc.), but *not* for any non-fluid specific.

So that�s an abortion. And you're just plain wrong with some fluids too.

> You use "cook" for generic/unspecific and use
> "boil" for water (and for some other fluids? milk?).

All fluids that are actually boiled. And we have much more than
JUST the word boil too, everything from simmer, rolling boil,
fast boil, reduce, etc etc etc too for various ways to boil stuff.

And it isnt just with fluids either, you boil
marmalade and relish etc when making it too.

> So while we use one less word ("boil"), the context generic/unspecific
> or specific, allows *double*, *unambiguous*, use of the word "koken".

That�s bullshit.

> And this ends this lesson "Dutch for beginners" (dummies? :-))!

> To the OP: Thanks for asking the question. It gave me and my wife the
> opportunity to figure out why we use the verb "koken" the way we do.
> BTW, the wife just started her cooking, she's baking a cake. :-)

But a recipe for making marmalade has no succinct and unambiguous
way of telling the cook how to do the boiling phase.

[ALP = Arrogance, Lies & Pretence]

On 15/05/2013 5:58 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
>>>> Rod Speed <rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote
>>>>> Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote
>>>>>> felix_unger <m...@nothere.com> wrote

...

>
>>>>>> AFAIK, we don't have a word for "boil".
>
>>>>> Google translate appears to call boil water, cook water.
>
>>>> Yes, correct, that's what I meant (with "We Dutch just say "cook"
>>>> ("koken")").
>
>>> Yes, but its not specific enough when you need to succinctly
>>> say that the water does need to be boiled to say sterilise it
>>> or to make a decent cup of tea etc. Its too crude to just say
>>> its cooked water when that covers water that?s just heated
>>> but not enough to boil it.
>
>> Nope. It's 'too crude' in *English*.
>
> Mindlessly silly when it spells out exactly how its 'cooked'

It means 'boiled'. How many times do you have to be told?

>
>> In *Dutch*, it's totally unambiguous.
>
> Bullshit.




>

--
Julia Gillard...
"I don't want the mining industry to hire a single foreign worker if
there is an Australian who can do the job"
(PS: Who issues the visas????????????????????)

"Wayne Swan was explicitly asked to rule out a further increase in the
debt limit above the current limit of $300 billion. He steadfastly refused".
http://liberal.org.au/latest-news/2013/03/13/swan-refuses-rule-out-increase-debt-limit-above-300-billion

Swan...
"The course of action I'm talking about today really comes very much, I
guess, to the core of my values and the values of the Labor Party"

Paul Howes...
"Labor has an obligation to stop extremists who threaten our democracy"

How much new law is there every year?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lePrBUHihKI

Tony Abbott...
"You do not save the environment by killing the economy"

"It's not about popularity, it's about gaining respect, and she hasn't
got it yet"
(Australian of the Year, 2013)

[Frank Slootweg]

> But doesn?t succinctly spell out exactly how they are cooked.

Exactly *which* part of "Dutch "gekookte eieren" is your "boiled
eggs", nothing more, nothing less." didn't you understand!?

"gekookte eieren" == "boiled eggs", so it *DOES* "succinctly spell
out exactly how they are cooked", namely that they're *BOILED*.

[Zillion similar reading/comprehension problems deleted.]

Bottom line: We both speak/understand English. I speak/understand
Dutch and you don't. And you are going to tell me that a Dutch word *in
context* is ambiguous, when I say it isn't!? I don't think so!

QED. HTH. HAND. EOD. NI.

[Sandgroper]

On 13-May-13 9:20 AM, felix_unger wrote:
>
> Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in boiling
> water we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta. So
> shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them? The eggs
> aren't boiling, only the water is. I'm sure the great minds that inhabit
> these forums will have an answer.
>

So I see you got bored with gazing at your belly button .

Perhaps you could try picking lint out of your belly button as a sport.

:)

--

Sandgroper
--------------------------------------------
Save planet Earth !
It's the only place that has Pizza and Beer

[Rod Speed]

Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote just
the mindless silly shit it always end up with when its
got done like a fucking dinner, as it ALWAYS is.

[felix_unger]

On 16-May-2013 2:34 AM, Sandgroper wrote:
> On 13-May-13 9:20 AM, felix_unger wrote:
>>
>> Why do we say we boil eggs? When we cook pasta by placing it in boiling
>> water we don't say we're boiling pasta, we say we're cooking pasta. So
>> shouldn't we be saying we're cooking eggs when we 'boil' them? The eggs
>> aren't boiling, only the water is. I'm sure the great minds that inhabit
>> these forums will have an answer.
>>
>
> So I see you got bored with gazing at your belly button .
>

So did a lot of other ppl apparently since there were a lot of replies,
including yours.. :)

> Perhaps you could try picking lint out of your belly button as a sport.
>
> :)
>


--

[ALP = Arrogance, Lies & Pretence]

ROTFL. Speedy's standard exit line when *he* is done like a dinner.

[Frank Slootweg]

ALP = Arrogance, Lies & Pretence <bjfost...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
> On 16/05/2013 4:25 AM, Rod Speed wrote:
> > Frank Slootweg <th...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote just the mindless silly
> > shit it always end up with when its got done like a fucking dinner, as
> > it ALWAYS is.
>
> ROTFL. Speedy's standard exit line when *he* is done like a dinner.

Indeed. One can accuse Roddles of many things, but being unpredictable
isn't one of them.

It would be nice if, just once in a while, the number of sensible
responses from Roddles, n, would *not* match the formula 0 <= n < 1

[Rod Speed]

Some fuckwit pseudokraut claiming to be

[ALP = Arrogance, Lies & Pretence]

'n' being a whole number I presume.

No-one knows the true origin of Speedy, but one theory is that he was
the result someone's attempt to reverse the course of AI research and
dumb down a person to a machine. The availability of programmable
function keys was a major step forward in this process of 'unvolution'.

[Wolfgang Wildeblood]

On May 16, 5:25 am, Frank Slootweg <t...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:

> ALP = Arrogance, Lies & Pretence <bjfoster9...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>
> > On 16/05/2013 4:25 AM, Rod Speed wrote:

> > > Frank Slootweg <t...@ddress.is.invalid> wrote just the mindless silly

> > > shit it always end up with when its got done like a fucking dinner, as
> > > it ALWAYS is.
>
> > ROTFL. Speedy's standard exit line when *he* is done like a dinner.
>
>   Indeed. One can accuse Roddles of many things, but being unpredictable
> isn't one of them.
>
>   It would be nice if, just once in a while, the number of sensible
> responses from Roddles, n, would *not* match the formula 0 <= n < 1

Why can't we all just get along? :-(

Frank, I very much enjoyed your explanation of the different verbs in
Dutch. It reminded me of the good old days of usenet, when people
shared what they knew and learnt what they didn't.

(And to answer your query from yesterday, "Wolfgang" is just an
internet persona, and potatoes are just "potatoes" to me.)

[Kangaroo Court Australia]

Dear Dr Helen Tsigounis,
Attorneys General and VIC Equal Opportunity & Human Rights Commission,
MPs, Friends, Students of Law and Human Rights Defenders,

1. You are invited by me to come save Australian Democracy, protecting
not only the Victorian Charter for Human Rights and Responsibility Act
2016 but also the Administrative Law Act 1978 (VIC);

2. As a matter of fact, Dr Tsigounis, you are challenged by the judge
Emerton J to do so;

3.
Administrative Law Act 1978 - SECT 3
Tribunal decisions may be reviewed

3. Tribunal decisions may be reviewed

Any person affected by a decision of a tribunal may make application
(hereinafter called an application for review) to the Supreme Court
for an
order calling on the tribunal or the members thereof (hereinafter
called an
order for review) and also any party interested in maintaining the
decision to
show cause why the same should not be reviewed.

4. Your task, Dr Tsigounis, is in effect tell Judge (and Australia)
your experience of the Australian judicial system, the little tactics
they use to set you up to fail and then to call you inferior, deny you
education, employment, and basic human rights.

5. Attached is the afternoon transcript of hearing on 15 May 2013,
email me if u need the full transcript.

6. You will notice some of their tactics to deny natural justice,
essentially an attack on Australian Democracy and the Separation of
Powers of the Judiciary and Executive.

7. We are always happy to see "activist" judges interprete human
rights provisions (correctly).

8. What we dont need is "activist" judges making up their own laws
when the "written" law is crystall clear, and black and white.

9. Dr Tsigounis, your submission will also be used in any high court
challenges with permission.


Searching for Answers,

Le Tuan Pham
PO BOX 1255
ST ALBANS 3121
















---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: chas x <nwn.we...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, May 13, 2013 at 9:15 PM
Subject: Racist Corrupt Judges are just out of control: No right to an
effective investigation of cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment under
the Victorian Charter
To: chambers.ju...@supremecourt.vic.gov.au,
Marcus...@supremecourt.vic.gov.au, fiona....@vicbar.com.au,
Saie...@supremecourt.vic.gov.au, Lucy.M...@vgso.vic.gov.au
Cc: compl...@veohrc.vic.gov.au, Bruce...@vgso.vic.gov.au,
mark.dr...@aph.gov.au, le...@veohrc.vic.gov.au,
jessica...@vgso.vic.gov.au, nic...@nicolaroxonmp.com,
Nicola....@aph.gov.au, atto...@ag.gov.au,
off...@smith.minister.nsw.gov.au, robert...@parliament.vic.gov.au,
Atto...@ministerial.qld.gov.au, christia...@mp.wa.gov.au,
a...@agd.sa.gov.au, Brian.W...@dpac.tas.gov.au, cor...@act.gov.au,
john.e...@nt.gov.au, "tony.abbott.mp" <Tony.Ab...@aph.gov.au>,
scott.mo...@aph.gov.au, mini...@immi.gov.au,
senato...@immi.gov.au, senator.thi...@aph.gov.au,
"marion.le" <Mari...@anu.edu.au>, New Complaints
<NewCom...@humanrights.gov.au>, Complaints Info
<complai...@humanrights.gov.au>, senator....@aph.gov.au,
"Andrew (MP) Wilkie" <Andrew.W...@aph.gov.au>,
robert.oa...@aph.gov.au, consuela...@mk.com.au,
Karen...@vgso.vic.gov.au, cou...@cgd.vic.gov.au, in...@mk.com.au,
sarah.c...@mk.com.au, denis.n...@parliament.vic.gov.au,
ted.ba...@parliament.vic.gov.au, peter...@parliament.vic.gov.au,
in...@libertyvictoria.org.au, accounta...@gmail.com,
Kevin....@aph.gov.au, Julia.Gi...@aph.gov.au,
"tony.windsor.mp" <tony.wi...@aph.gov.au>, senator.hanson-
yo...@aph.gov.au, senator...@aph.gov.au, senato...@aph.gov.au,
senator....@aph.gov.au, senator...@aph.gov.au,
Stephani...@justice.vic.gov.au, vcat-hrd <vcat-
h...@justice.vic.gov.au>, Katherin...@vgso.vic.gov.au,
Hayley....@vgso.vic.gov.au, romin...@vgso.vic.gov.au,
Christy....@supremecourt.vic.gov.au, john...@heraldsun.com.au,
investi...@theage.com.au, michael.o'br...@parliament.vic.gov.au,
Nawaar...@supremecourt.vic.gov.au,
greg....@parliament.vic.gov.au,
colleen....@parliament.vic.gov.au,
sue.pe...@parliament.vic.gov.au,
daniel....@parliament.vic.gov.au,
martin...@parliament.vic.gov.au,
richar...@parliament.vic.gov.au,
lily.d'ambr...@parliament.vic.gov.au,
daniell...@parliament.vic.gov.au,
jill.h...@parliament.vic.gov.au,
andrew....@parliament.vic.gov.au, mlcn...@kln.gov.my, philip
moss <phili...@aclei.gov.au>, cl...@sgchambers.com.au,
qld...@fedcourt.gov.au, supreme court
<suprem...@courts.nsw.gov.au>, a...@nine.com.au,
let...@dailytelegraph.com.au, news...@dailyexaminer.com.au,
edi...@innerwestcourier.com.au, bo...@newsltd.com.au, miranda devine
<devine...@hotmail.com>, be...@centreforce.com,
CentralA...@ag.gov.au, Geoffrey Watson SC
<wat...@sevenwentworth.com.au>,
ambassade...@foreign.ministry.se, senato...@aph.gov.au,
Michael Ahrens <ti...@transparency.org.au>,
transparen...@gmail.com, gleo...@bigpond.net.au,
georgia...@gmail.com, alan.n...@gmail.com,
Georgia...@supremecourt.vic.gov.au, le...@pilch.org.au, Hugh de
Kretser <Hugh.De...@hrlc.org.au>,
Rob.S...@supremecourt.vic.gov.au,
coare...@supremecourt.vic.gov.au, Ian Thomson
<Ian.T...@supremecourt.vic.gov.au>,
Ken.W...@supremecourt.vic.gov.au


Dear Attorneys General and VIC Equal Opportunity & Human Rights
Commission, MPs, Friends, Students of Law and Human Rights Defenders,

1. Racist Corrupt Judges are just out of control even with a Charter
of Human Rights and Responsibility Act 2006:
No right to an effective investigation of cruel, inhuman or degrading
treatment under the Victorian Charter
Bare v Small [2013] VSC 129 (Unreported, 25 March 2013)

http://www.hrlc.org.au/no-right-to-an-effective-investigation-of-cruel-inhuman-or-degrading-treatment-under-the-victorian-charter

2. http://www.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/sinodisp/au/cases/vic/VSC/2013/129.html?stem=0&synonyms=0&query=bare%20and%20small&nocontext=1

3. We were just perusing what the lawyers were doing on the Human
Rights front, and it doesnt seem that they are getting anywhere very
fast either; the legal services couldnt even get procedures correct to
get the investigation up and running in the first place. the honorable
thing would have been for the lawyers to admit that they were inept
and that the underaged Ethiopean man to have proper investigation into
Police violence and misconduct yet again. (I have a mind to seek
judicial review of the matter myself in the high court on the basis of
an unsafe judgment and deaths in custody and the "acts of bad faith"
in failure to investigate)

4. Berto, you will note that the above matter has NOT been reported
either. SO do not believe in a free and fair press !!

5. As for our own matter, since these lawyers are not doing so well,
we seek to have interpretation of the Charter as well, and our own
questions of law are as follow. Feel free to make corrections.

6. Not least is the question as to whether we can make digital
recordings of Court proceedings, so judges cannot corrupt the process
by refusing to release transcripts or authenticate orders and
judgements (Whelan, Vickery, Nettle and Neave JJA)

7. We have an intervention of the Victorian Attorney General with an
accompanying complaint of unlawful racial discrimination and racial
vilification against them for the same act. Their submission and our
response are attached.

8. We mentioned that we will match the wisdom of judges in New Dehli
with those of Commonwealth of the Australia, well here is a start,
taking on the ageless advice of Abe Lincoln: "Tis better to remain
silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth to remove all
doubts".

9. Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities Act 2006 - SECT 24
Fair hearing

24. Fair hearing

(1) A person charged with a criminal offence or a party to a civil
proceeding
has the right to have the charge or proceeding decided by a competent,
independent and impartial court or tribunal after a fair and public
hearing.


"decided by a competent,independent and impartial court or tribunal
after a



fair and public hearing," we are still waiting for the Court of Appeal
to answer
our questions, so we can determine if they are "competent,independent
and impartial ".



We are just not sure who is more fond of the Abe Lincoln saying !!

Searching for answers,

Le Tuan PHAM
PO BOX 1255
St Albans 3121




Aboriginal Elder to take on the Whiteman's Judicial corruption &
perverting of the Rule of Law: Thorpe & Pham vs Lulham, Wenthworth,
VCAT & Ors, S CI 2013 0093; S CI 2013 0092;

IN THE SUPREME COURT OF
VICTORIA

AT MELBOURNE

JUDICAL REVIEW AND APPEALS
LIST S CI 2013
00093



COMMON
LAW DIVISION



BETWEEN



Robert Alan Thorpe

Le Tuan PHAM

Applicant(s)

and –



Ian B Lulham (Deputy President, VCAT)

E Wentworth (Member, VCAT)

& ors



(according to the attached Schedule)

Defendants



RESPONSE TO DEFENDANTS’ SUBMISSION

DATED 10 April 2013

Date of document: Monday, 13 May
2013

Filed on behalf of: The Applicant

Prepared by: Le Tuan
PHAM
Tel:


Fax:

Address:







1. This is an appeal against the decision of Associate Justice
Muhktar on 4 March 2013, under the Administrative Law Act 1978 and
Supreme Court Rules, inter alia;

2. The decision was to remove names of Applicants and Respondents
without the consent of the Applicant(s);

3. The Attorney General has applied to intervene in this matter
and was given permission;

4. Aboriginal Elder Robert Alan Thorpe and Dr Helen Tsigounis,
also applied to be heard under the Administrative Law Act 1978 and
Supreme Court Rules, inter alia, but have been denied to be heard;

5. We seek a referral to the Court of Appeal on these questions
of law under the
Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities Act 2006 - SECT 33

Referral to Supreme Court

33. Referral to Supreme Court



(1) If, in a proceeding before a court or tribunal, a question of law
arises

that relates to the application of this Charter or a question arises
with

respect to the interpretation of a statutory provision in accordance
with this

Charter, that question may be referred to the Supreme Court if-



(a) a party has made an application for referral;





6. The questions are:



7. Does the right to a fair trial pursuant to s8(1),(2),(3) and s
24(1) and s38(1), inter alia, of the Charter operate to include the
right to be able to tape or digitally make a court proceeding,
especially when



a. the Court of Appeal (Whelan and Vickery JJA, Nettle and Neave
JJ) refuses to authorise and seal their orders and judgments, and

b. refuses to release on request the transcript of proceedings,
and

c. that applicant has a disability and memory loss.



8. Does the right to a fair trial pursuant to s8(1),(2),(3) and s
24(1) and s38(1), inter alia, of the Charter operate to include the
right to be effectively heard in the court of law at all, by

a. Applicants who were all unrepresented litigants;

b. Applicants who were either Aborigines, Refugees and immigrants
with ethnic backgrounds;

c. Applicants who were presented with disability(ies);

d. when judge of the supreme court victoria (Emerton J) admits to
being confused, or mostly confused about basic common law rights to
procedural fairness or

e. when judge of the supreme court victoria (Emerton J) appears
to be confused on the definition of certiorari and mandamus;

f. when judge of the supreme court victoria (Emerton J) refuses
to allow Aboriginal Elder Robert Alan Thorpe and Dr Helen Tsigounis,
to be party to proceedings under the Administrative Law Act 1978;
despite allowing the Attorney General to intervene

g. when judge of the supreme court victoria (Emerton J, Muhktar
AsJ) refuses to provide proper reasons for orders and judgments;



9. How does the right to a fair trial pursuant to s8(1),(2),(3)
and s 24(1) and s38(1), inter alia, of the Charter be best served,

a. when the Attorney General intervened seeking a Summary
dismissal requiring a full hearing rather than mere threshold of
establishing prima facie case;

b. and whether that amounts to an abuse of process;

c. and whether there should be an adjournment to allow the
Applicants further time to proceed with a full case;



10. Does the right to a fair trial pursuant to s8(1),(2),(3) and s
24(1) and s38(1), inter alia, of the Charter operate to include
harassment and intimidation of unrepresented litigants,

a. for the Prothonotary, court registrars and or officers and or
judges to harass and intimidate unrepresented litigants into
unauthorised and non-consensual alterations of his court applications,
removal of Applicants and Respondents,

b. and without the Applicants’ consents;

c. interfering with the administration of justice;





11. Does the right to a fair trial pursuant to s8(1),(2),(3) and s
24(1) and s38(1), inter alia, of the Charter operate to include proper
reasons for orders and judgments,

a. On plainest consideration of justice, the (Court) ought to
have set forth its reasons howsoever brief, in its order indicative an
application of its mind, all the more when its order amenable to
further avenue of challenge.

b. ''The giving of reasons is one of the fundamentals of good
administration and failure to give reason amounts to denial of
justice,'

c. (Justices Arijit Pasayat and Aftab Alam, Supreme Court India,
New Dehli)



12. The Submissions and Responses from the Respondents and Attorney
General are defective and incompetent;

13. They fail to challenge any of the Applicant(s) allegations and
questions of law, or question of the interpretation of the Charter;

14. The Respondents and the Attorney General have sat on their rights
to reply, and their submissions should be struck out for incompetence
and being defective;

15. The Administrative Law Act 1978 statutory provisions that the
Applicants rely upon in particular have not been challenged;

16. There are NO affidavits from the Registrar of the VCAT; and or
any Respondents party of breaches of the Charter;

17. And there appears to be an admission from VCAT of a collusion to
prevent the Applicant from access to s120 of the VCAT Act;

18. Where the (Principal) Registrar of VCAT and Member Wentworth and
Deputy President Lulham falsely and in bad faith claimed that the
Applicant was present at all or some of the hearing in front VCAT;

19. The Orders that the Applicants seek are:

20. The Judge Emerton J refer the questions of the interpretation of
the Charter to the Court of Appeal pursuant to s33 of the Charter;

21. And or The Judge Emerton J disqualify herself from proceedings
for admitting to being confused and not knowing the definition of
certiorari and mandamus;

22. And for refusing to provide reasons why Aboriginal Elder Robert
Alan Thorpe and Dr Helen Tsigounis, should not be party to
proceedings; and to reply to any submissions of the Attorney General;

23. Both matters should be run separately so as NOT to confuse the
judge(s)

a. S CI 2013 00093, is proceedings pursuant to the
Administrative Law Act on the conduct of VCAT, and breaches of the
Charter, Jurisdictional errors, where the Aboriginal Elder Robert
Alan Thorpe (and others) wishes to be party in order that the unlawful
actions of VCAT will not affect his peoples or other peoples who
cannot defend themselves for various reasons of inequality.

b. S CI 2013 00092, is an appeal pursuant to s148 of VCAT Act on
the original matter, that the Applicant was

i.
denied procedural fairness based on race and or disability, and

ii.
that the Real Estate agent, Tony Rachele, acted in bad faith; and

iii.
breached s133 VCAT Act, Non-compliance with Order made by Kefford 30
August 2011;

iv.
that the Applicant was denied Quiet and Peaceful Enjoyment under the
Residential Tenancy Act and other compensatory mechanism; inter alia

v.
that there is NO Valid Notice to Vacate;

vi.
that there should compensation for disability and hardship;

vii.
that the rooming house was unregistered and illegal;

viii. And
unfit for human habitation.



24. We seek proper orders for Aboriginal Elder Robert Alan Thorpe and
Dr Helen Tsigounis, to be added as parties and to have proper
submissions from them.

25. We seek that the Equal Opportunity and Human Rights Commission,
be added as party, since there is a complaint of unlawful racial
discrimination and racial vilification by the Attorney General to
intervene in matter pursuant to s148 of VCAT Act.

26. All submissions in the Appeal Book, form the Applicant’s
submission and include further affidavits and submissions, dated 11,
12 and 16 April 2013:

27. The Notice of Appeal from Orders made by AJ Mukhtar made on 4
March 2013, dated 6 March 3013;

28. The Affidavit in Support, of Le Tuan Pham, dated 6 March 2013;

29. The Affidavit of Elder Robert Alan Thorpe, dated 9 April 2013;

30. The Affidavits of Le Tuan Pham, dated 10,11,12,16 April 2013;

31. The Notices pursuant to the s35 of the Charter were served on the
Human Rights and Equal Opportunity Commission, and the State Attorney
General, dates ;

32. The Notice of a Constitutional Matter, served on all the
Attorneys General, on dates ;

33. will form the Submissions of the Applicant(s), and includes this
submission.





SCHEDULE OF PARTIES

Robert Alan
Thorpe
Applicant One



Le Tuan
Pham
Applicant Two









Ian B Lulham (Deputy President,
VCAT) Defendant One



E Wentworth (Member,
VCAT) Defendant
Two



President of
VCAT
Defendant Three



Principal Registrar
(VCAT)
Defendant Four



Principal Prothonotary (Supreme Court
Victoria) Defendant Five



Attorney General (State of
Victoria) Defendant
Six











Department of Justice, Victoria,

Australia

121 Exhibition St

GPO Box 4356

Melbourne VIC 3000





The Hon. Robert Clark, MP

121 Exhibition Street

Melbourne

Victoria, 3000



Supreme Court Victoria

210 William Street,

Melbourne, Victoria, 3000, Australia





Victorian Civil and Administrative Tribunal

55 King Street

Melbourne Vic 3000 Australia

[Frank Slootweg]

Wolfgang Wildeblood <wolfgangw...@gmail.com> wrote:
[...]

> Why can't we all just get along? :-(

Good point! Why spoil a nice thread like this with flame-wars? Sorry
for my part in the spill.

> Frank, I very much enjoyed your explanation of the different verbs in
> Dutch. It reminded me of the good old days of usenet, when people
> shared what they knew and learnt what they didn't.

Yes, in a Usenet far away and long ago! :-) Fond memories.

[...]