Dealer admits winding back odometer
Larry
Renee Viellaris
05jul04
A BRISBANE Holden dealership has admitted winding back the odometers of
new cars.
Armstrong Holden in Woolloongabba said General Motors Holden provided a
tool that enabled a retailer to adjust an odometer of a Commodore when
it had less than 100km on it.
Retail principal Craig Armstrong said his staff acted "with the
interests of the customer in mind".
He said staff had turned back the odometer on James Robinson's new
Holden VY Commodore S ute.
Mr Robinson, 23, of Toowong, has been offered a replacement car.
He said that when he saw his ute in the showroom on June 12 it had 28km
on the clock. When he picked it up on June 17 it had 1km.
"(The sales assistant) said, 'Isn't he (staff member) a darl? He's
wound back the clock for you'," Mr Robinson said. "I just gave her a
blank look and said, 'You did what?' "
Armstrong Holden said that when the vehicle was delivered Mr Robinson
was fully informed of what had occurred and had raised no objection. Mr
Robinson complained to Holden's head office, which confirmed on Friday
that the dealership would exchange his car.
Mr Armstrong said his service staff told him winding back had been done
on new cars previously.
"Isolated or not, it is not a practice that is appropriate, and I have
taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again," he said.
Mr Armstrong sought legal advice and hired a communications specialist
before telling The Courier-Mail last night the claims were true.
"The employee honestly believed it was in the best interests of the
customer, and I am convinced it was done in good faith. Clearly this is
unacceptable and just plain stupid," he said.
It would not happen again, he said. The staff member had been
counselled but not sacked.
Mr Armstrong said Mr Robinson's car had been driven only about 40km and
it was impossible to turn the odometer back once it had reached 100km.
Holden said it would not comment further until today when it had read
Mr Armstrong's statement.
http://shorl.com/dafejikotidro
http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,10042816,00.html
sheik yerbouti
>
>Mr Armstrong said Mr Robinson's car had been driven only about 40km and
>it was impossible to turn the odometer back once it had reached 100km.
>
what???
why should it be possible to wind it back before it reached 100 km?
winding back an odometer in any circumstances is illegal unless i'm
very much mistaken.
can this be done with a Tech 2 scan tool?
RVi
>
> can this be done with a Tech 2 scan tool?
Yup.
--
Regards
Dan.
sheik yerbouti
>sheik yerbouti wrote:
>
>>
>> can this be done with a Tech 2 scan tool?
>
>Yup.
i wonder how regularly this is done?
David Z
news:bfaie0lnd4g9iocbq...@4ax.com...
Can't you just remove the cover from the dash and push the numbers backwards
with your fingers?
RVi
>
> i wonder how regularly this is done?
Probably more times than we think its not uncommon for dealers to reset
the odo to zero or wind back a few k's when new cars that delivered from
the factory to the dealership. But as you can see it has open the doors
for dealers to rip people off with this trick with used cars.
--
Regards
Dan.
Marty
"David Z" <da...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:OfaGc.79244$sj4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
jesus
J
RVi
>
> Can't you just remove the cover from the dash and push the numbers backwards
> with your fingers?
No its more complicated than that you drive the car in reverse
everywhere you go. :-p
--
Regards
Dan.
sheik yerbouti
>
>Can't you just remove the cover from the dash and push the numbers backwards
>with your fingers?
>
that just makes the LCD display go all fuzzy ;)
sheik yerbouti
there was an article in the Age Drive section a few weeks back about a
group who reckon they can trace this, apparently the vehicle stores
the odo more than once (in the dash unit and the ECM?) and if you
'wind it back' they can tell.
of course in most cases they aren't likely to ever be called in to
find out so it's not much deterrent
Smee
How do you wind it back????????????????????
Smee
The commodore odos have been digital for many years.
The Last Gunslinger
Excellent :)
--
JB
--------------------------
Rot -13 wo...@vcevzhf.pbz.nh
D Walford
Only if they are Holdens and have done less than 100klms:-)
Some people are IMO very odd and expect a new car to be delivered with
next to zero klms on the odo, I prefer the dealer service dept to do
what they are paid for, that is do a proper pre delivery which should
include a decent road test.
If they don't road test a car how are they going to locate any faults
and fix them before delivery?
Daryl
RVi
> Only if they are Holdens and have done less than 100klms:-)
> Some people are IMO very odd and expect a new car to be delivered with
> next to zero klms on the odo, I prefer the dealer service dept to do
> what they are paid for, that is do a proper pre delivery which should
> include a decent road test.
> If they don't road test a car how are they going to locate any faults
> and fix them before delivery?
Agreed my Calais had only 19 on the odo when I picked it up has 3341 now
I should be out running her in even more but lack of sleep I better
not. :-)
--
Regards
Dan.
sheik yerbouti
wrote:
>I prefer the dealer service dept to do
>what they are paid for, that is do a proper pre delivery which should
>include a decent road test.
>If they don't road test a car how are they going to locate any faults
>and fix them before delivery?
>
ok but this doesn't explain rewinding the odo
D Walford
Hooked up a trailer we were wiring to my mates Calais and the reverse
sensors went nuts, once we had finished the trailer wiring and plugged
the lights into the car the sensors shutup, the bloody thing knew the
trailer was there so shut the reverse sensors off, very clever:-)
Daryl
D Walford
IMO it does, it stops some whinging dickhead complaining that his new
car has got more than bugger all klms on the odo.
In the 80's Ford used to disconnect the speedo's of new cars their
engineers used to take home everynight for road testing.
They used to road test a sample of every days production and in the case
of my former next door neighbour his round trip to and from work would
have been approx 80klms.
The engineers who took the cars home had to write a detailed report on
each car and any faults found were fixed before delivery to the dealer
but no one would have known that the cars had done a lot more klms than
the odo showed.
Daryl
Toby Ponsenby
> The engineers who took the cars home had to write a detailed report on
> each car and any faults found were fixed before delivery to the dealer
> but no one would have known that the cars had done a lot more klms than
> the odo showed.
Ahem... we begin to see the origins of 'dealer pre-delivery' here....
In some cases far more than a good bath and a slap about the face, it would
appear.
Still, its nice to see the designers of the electronics having the
foresight to leave a 'back-door' for the odometer software.
I'm also bloody sure the 100Kms story is utter bullshit - since back in the
bad old days, most manufacturers included instructions in the shop manuals
on how to dismantle and reassemble odometers, and I see no reason in the
least for that initiative to be reversed any time soon - after all, a new
odometer bought to replace a faulty one has to be changed to suit the real
mileage of the car, does it not? :-)
Met a character once who earned a quite significant living clocking speedos
- so the employment argument gets a run, too. Hell, the things were
tamper-proof, the price of low mileage wrecks would go through the roof!
Still, as long as there are wonderful people out there who want to marry
virgins, stuff just has to be done to accommodate their fetishes.
--
Toby
quidquid latine dictum
sit, altum viditur
Warning: All posts to be treated with a grain of salt.
By Order
K.K.
Clockmeister
"Toby Ponsenby" <to...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:b25eov5cwf0f$.dlg@ID-136740.user.uni-berlin.de...
> <| D Walford |> did write on 05Jul2004 at 11:25:42 PM
> > The engineers who took the cars home had to write a detailed report on
> > each car and any faults found were fixed before delivery to the dealer
> > but no one would have known that the cars had done a lot more klms than
> > the odo showed.
>
> Ahem... we begin to see the origins of 'dealer pre-delivery' here....
> In some cases far more than a good bath and a slap about the face, it
would
> appear.
> Still, its nice to see the designers of the electronics having the
> foresight to leave a 'back-door' for the odometer software.
> I'm also bloody sure the 100Kms story is utter bullshit
It absolutely is not. The odometer can only be altered providing it reads
under 100kms.
- since back in the
> bad old days, most manufacturers included instructions in the shop manuals
> on how to dismantle and reassemble odometers, and I see no reason in the
> least for that initiative to be reversed any time soon - after all, a new
> odometer bought to replace a faulty one has to be changed to suit the real
> mileage of the car, does it not? :-)
You can only do that once with tech 2, that is enter an odometer reading
that reads over 100km.
After that, there is *no* way of altering it.
You need Tech 2 and the dealerships hardware key to change the odometer and
that dealer specific hardware key code is stored so they can tell which
dealer altered the setting too.
Clockmeister
"RVi" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:2kspsvF...@uni-berlin.de...
Can't happen, once the odometer has gone over 100 it can't be changed by any
means.
We absolutely have never altered the odometer on any new cars, except where
a new vehicle has had a faulty instrument cluster from new and we have had
to replace the whole unit, which includes having to set the new unit to the
old unit's reading.
This has happened on a couple of occasions.
Michael Culley
> The odometer is digital isn't it?
> How do you wind it back????????????????????
It's a virtual winding back.
--
Michael Culley
RVi
>
> Have you got a towbar on the Calais?
No I didn't tick that option didn't think I needed to the VP was my tow
hack. :-( I really want to use a wagon for towing with leaf springs not
IRS.
> Hooked up a trailer we were wiring to my mates Calais and the reverse
> sensors went nuts, once we had finished the trailer wiring and plugged
> the lights into the car the sensors shutup, the bloody thing knew the
> trailer was there so shut the reverse sensors off, very clever:-)
Yeah dealer told me about the sensors behavior when hooking up a trailer
or caravan. But it is a good idea for it to disable when you plug in
the trailer lights into the socket.
--
Regards
Dan.
fulliautomatix
> of my former next door neighbour his round trip to and from work would
> have been approx 80klms.
it is common in country areas that vehicles are driven many k's before
delivery as it is easier and cheaper than trying to truck it...maybe it
goes from one dealer to another, or goes a few hundred k's to have
accessories fitted...this is usually done with the ODO disconnected,
no-one really worries about 50 k's or so, but you dont want a 'new'
vehicle with 250 on it
Pat Sproule
Pat
"RVi" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:2ku5d0F...@uni-berlin.de...
RVi
> A VP Wagon with Leaf Springs???
No thats not what I meant the VP wagon I had before some nong hit me was
my hack wagon (no it didn not have leaf springs or IRS). But I wouldn't
mind a wagon with leaf springs for better towing ability.
--
Regards
Dan.
conehead
"Smee" <fuckoff@teranewsusers> wrote in message
news:40e94712$0$27222$61ce...@news.syd.swiftdsl.com.au...
> How do you wind it back????????????????????
>
You just reverse the 1's and 0's.
--
Conehead
Arnie
news:OfaGc.79244$sj4....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Can't you just remove the cover from the dash and push the numbers
backwards
> with your fingers?
OMG, I've been away from this ng for a bit and I come back to this GEM from
David Z!
You are still in fine form LOL
Smee
conehead wrote:
I did that with a black texta
doesn't look too realistic but at least my car now always indicates
000001 kms on the odometer:-)
Arnie
news:b25eov5cwf0f$.dlg@ID-136740.user.uni-berlin.de...
> > The engineers who took the cars home had to write a detailed report on
> > each car and any faults found were fixed before delivery to the dealer
> > but no one would have known that the cars had done a lot more klms than
> > the odo showed.
>
> Ahem... we begin to see the origins of 'dealer pre-delivery' here....
> In some cases far more than a good bath and a slap about the face, it
would
> appear.
> Still, its nice to see the designers of the electronics having the
> foresight to leave a 'back-door' for the odometer software.
> I'm also bloody sure the 100Kms story is utter bullshit - since back in
the
> bad old days, most manufacturers included instructions in the shop manuals
> on how to dismantle and reassemble odometers, and I see no reason in the
> least for that initiative to be reversed any time soon - after all, a new
> odometer bought to replace a faulty one has to be changed to suit the real
> mileage of the car, does it not? :-)
> Met a character once who earned a quite significant living clocking
speedos
> - so the employment argument gets a run, too. Hell, the things were
> tamper-proof, the price of low mileage wrecks would go through the roof!
The actual kms for commodore digital odometers are not stored in the
instruments. It is merely a display that gets its data from an electronic
box elsewhere. You can swap the instruments from 1 car to another and the
digital odometer reading won't change.
Arnie
Smee
Arnie wrote:
> The actual kms for commodore digital odometers are not stored in the
> instruments. It is merely a display that gets its data from an electronic
> box elsewhere. You can swap the instruments from 1 car to another and the
> digital odometer reading won't change.
Tell that to a Friend of mine who swapped his instrument cluster.
All of a sudden his Commodore had done 48,000 kms less.
Where did you get this information?
Larry
Renee Viellaris
06jul04
ONE of Australia's biggest car makers has been caught up in a
Queensland Government investigation into odometer tampering.
The Fair Trading Department will include General Motors Holden in an
investigation sparked after a Brisbane Holden dealership admitted
winding back odometers on new cars.
And GMH which yesterday insisted the practice was unacceptable has
revealed it is conducting its own investigation into the case.
A spokesman for Fair Trading Minister Margaret Keech would not reveal
if GMH had broken the law by providing a diagnostic tool that could
also wind back the odometers of Holden Commodores if they had done less
than 100km.
The spokesman said he did not know if a tool existed, and they only had
the word of Craig Armstrong, the retail principal of Armstrong Holden,
in Woolloongabba.
Yesterday, The Courier-Mail revealed Armstrong Holden's retail
principal had admitted to winding back odometers on new cars.
Through his lawyers, Mr Armstrong said: "A diagnostic tool provided by
the manufacturer enables a retailer to adjust the odometer only in a
Holden Commodore and only when that odometer has accumulated less than
100km.
"Isolated or not, it is not a practice that is appropriate, and I have
taken steps to ensure it doesn't happen again."
Fair Trading Department officers yesterday swooped on the dealership.
The probes have begun as Premier Peter Beattie and Fair Trading
Minister Margaret Keech both yesterday committed to investigating and
charging fraudsters.
Mrs Keech said: "The matter regarding Armstrong Holden winding back
odometers under 100km on brand new cars is under investigation.
"Once the investigation is completed OFT will determine what
appropriate enforcement action can be taken against any parties found
to be in breach of legislation administered by OFT."
Premier Peter Beattie said the Government treated odometer tampering as
a serious offence.
"We all know that it's a fraud and anyone who's caught will be charged.
If there are issues and impediments to investigate these matters we
will resolve them."
A GMH spokesman said last night odometer tampering was unacceptable.
"Holden does not condone or support any reduction in odometer readings.
"Holden is investigating matters relating to Armstrong Holden and
whether the dealer may have breached its Holden Sales and Service
Agreement. This is a commercial matter and as such, will remain
confidential between Holden and the dealer.
"In regards to diagnostic tools, the computer-based nature of modern
cars means that Holden dealers are trained to use Tech 2 diagnostic
hardware and software for servicing.
"Tech 2 is designed solely for General Motors vehicle maintenance and
is incompatible with other systems. "This package is available to
franchised service outlets and has extensive security hardware and
software features."
Mitsubishi and Toyota spokesmen said they did not have a device that
allowed a technician to wind back a clock. A Ford spokeswoman said "to
her knowledge" the company did not have a tool with those abilities.
http://www.thecouriermail.news.com.au/printpage/0,5942,10053268,00.html
Thomas 'bacco|007' Baxter
> No its more complicated than that you drive the car in reverse
> everywhere you go. :-p
Cant you do that to wind it back 'legally' ? :P
--
aDTVinfo - http://bacco007.dropbear.id.au
Thomas 'bacco|007' Baxter
> Can't you just remove the cover from the dash and push the numbers backwards
> with your fingers?
unless your name is Jake - then no.
Toby Ponsenby
Oh shit oh dear.
Lets have a look about on the web, people in Marketing Jerkoff positions,
shall we since we're going to get acres of print space dedicated to holier
then thou shite in the next few days.
So, we'll start with the simple stuff, shall we?
<http://www.prospeedo.com/>
<http://www.aaadigispeed.com/>
That seems to cover most of the Yankees.
and to add some zest - a company claiming hard work got them there:-), and
cheep, too:
<http://www.autoecu.com.cn/english/asm/>
The Euros - plus some Jap cars:
<http://www.baumtools.com/>
Most of the stuff on offer can do the odometer over if required.
So as we read all the denials we'll know that for a few bucks (and with
what appears to be a pricepoint at about what can be gained by selling ONE
low mileage car Vs a high miler) - it's really a piece of piss.
Not I'm not accusing dealers of this stuff. (Why bother?)
Also note that resetting an odo on the new-age digital cars is probably
EASIER than it used to be if you want to spend the money rather than the
effort it all used to take - slow fan coupler methods excepted:-)
D Walford
Certainly one of his best efforts:-)
Daryl
Stan Marsh
Pete
Graham W
>>Can't you just remove the cover from the dash and push the numbers
>>backwards with your fingers?
Arnie wrote:
> OMG, I've been away from this ng for a bit and I come back to this GEM from
> David Z!
> You are still in fine form LOL
And he thinks Africans are dumb...
Clockmeister
"Smee" <fuckoff@teranewsusers> wrote in message
He made it up.
Pat Sproule
"RVi" <no...@none.com> wrote in message news:2kuivlF...@uni-berlin.de...
Pat Sproule
mount EEPROM on the board in the instrument cluster. This is able to be
re-programmed or swapped without too much trouble if you know how. The was
talk that the EECV also stored a count but it isnt used for the odo.
Pat