Air con upgrade for VL
Peter Pechmann
Quick query,
Have old forgotten air con in my VL, wonder if I can upgrade at minimal
cost to the new gas type (is it R34?), ie. Not used for 5 yrs :( sob sob
I think I need to change the compressor and condensor,
Is there anyone in perth, that knowledgeable people can suggest can
sell me parts at reasonable prices, so I can upgrade myself,
I got tech experience and love making first mistakes on mech stuff
<groan>
Can I purge the system I have after mods without damaging anything
and still get usable service life...
And - Is the new R34? gas overall any better cooling wise then the
original
gas (R13?) that was in the car when I bought it ?
rgds
purple_engine
PS: Search for me on ebay,
Lord-Data
Back in Feb I had Holden look at it, and they quoted me $450 to do it ..
decided it wasnt worth it .. left it ..
got a new mechanics now, so asked em about it .. they told me, basically, it
could go one of 2 ways ..
if the aircon unit itself is in tact, then it was $149, including labour and
all parts to do it
or if the aircon unit itself has problems (seals broken, or anything else
wrong) then it could run up in the hundreds towards and maybe even over
$400, as they have to pull heaps of the dash apart ..
luckily, mine was fine, and $150 later, its now, to quote the mechanic,
"making ice cubes" .. i think the mechanics were as surprised as me that it
was all working fine after the re-gas. :)
weeks later now and still working nicely :)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Michael Saunders (aka, Lord-Data)
: ICQ: 514055
: MSN: gd...@msn.com
: URL: http://www.divxcity.com
: EBay: http://www.ebayshops.com.au/id=30953730
: Current Car: '87 Series II VL Commodore
"Peter Pechmann" <pur...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:3DF620A0...@iinet.net.au...
bud...@cantech.net.au
wrote:
>Just had mine done recently actually ..
>Back in Feb I had Holden look at it, and they quoted me $450 to do it ..
>decided it wasnt worth it .. left it ..
>
>got a new mechanics now, so asked em about it .. they told me, basically, it
>could go one of 2 ways ..
>if the aircon unit itself is in tact, then it was $149, including labour and
>all parts to do it
>or if the aircon unit itself has problems (seals broken, or anything else
>wrong) then it could run up in the hundreds towards and maybe even over
>$400, as they have to pull heaps of the dash apart ..
>
>luckily, mine was fine, and $150 later, its now, to quote the mechanic,
>"making ice cubes" .. i think the mechanics were as surprised as me that it
>was all working fine after the re-gas. :)
>
>weeks later now and still working nicely :)
What gas did they use? R12, R134a or R134a+ ???
R134a requires changed fittings and, in theory, a cleanout of old
ref-oil.
R134a+ is R12-compatible and uses the same fittings. Reputedly closer
to R12 capacity than R134a.
bud...@cantech.net.au
<pur...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>Hi chaps,
>
>Quick query,
>
>Have old forgotten air con in my VL, wonder if I can upgrade at minimal
>cost to the new gas type (is it R34?), ie. Not used for 5 yrs :( sob sob
>
>I think I need to change the compressor and condensor,
Depends on what was in it and what is to go into it now.
>Is there anyone in perth, that knowledgeable people can suggest can
>sell me parts at reasonable prices, so I can upgrade myself,
>I got tech experience and love making first mistakes on mech stuff
><groan>
In case you hadn't noticed, it's probably cheaper NOT to make those
mistakes at all ;-)
>Can I purge the system I have after mods without damaging anything
>and still get usable service life...
>
>And - Is the new R34? gas overall any better cooling wise then the
>original
>gas (R13?) that was in the car when I bought it ?
Original was R12, now officially banned and unobtainable.
Unofficially I have heard you can still get it - at a price.
The replacement that was widely used in the later 90's was R134a.
This was "ozone-friendly" but sucks by comparison with R12. It
required changes to the system.
Recently, R134a+ was introduced. This requires no changes to a going
R12 system, so if you don't have any issues it's just an evac & regas
job.
However, if your system ran out of gas years ago, it's a fair bet that
the compressor shaft seal has dried out and leaks i.e. will need
replacing.
If you are at all central, try calling Mike Thompson at AutoCool in
Lord St - 9328 1228/1315. He's a straight bloke who has fixed some
real problem systems for me. Doesn't rip you off or jerk you around
at all.
Nathan
compressor died so I "upgraded" to a larger compressor. I now run the
new gas. Does a great job now. Cost all up was ~$800.00.
I'm not much for tinkering with gas etc.. If you wanted to do it
yourself, compressors, hoses, seals etc can be bought from Coventries
or Amcap. I'm not sure how you'd go getting the gas though..
Nathan...
Peter Pechmann <pur...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message news:<3DF620A0...@iinet.net.au>...
Greg Stewart
The new gas (R134A) is crap compared to the old (R12)
It runs higher head pressure, which means a nosier compressor and reduced
compressor life, and it has less cooling power. But the law makers say that
R12 is bad and R134A is good, so that's that way it is. A form of LPG is
actually better than R12, but again the law makers say that a little bit of
LPG in an aircon system in a car is dangerous.. so it's out too!!
If you haven't used your system in 5 years, then you could be up for a
new/reconditioned compressor, seals may have dried out, and now leak. You
should also replace the receiver/dryer (cylinder thing with glass window on
top)
The rest of the system should be ok, provided it was not open to the
atmosphere. I would get the system checked for leaks before spending any $$
on parts.
Greg.
Lord-Data
bay .. Works *VERY* well for a 16+ year old aircon .. surprisingly well
actually ..
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Michael Saunders (aka, Lord-Data)
: ICQ: 514055
: MSN: gd...@msn.com
: URL: http://www.divxcity.com
: EBay: http://www.ebayshops.com.au/id=30953730
: Current Car: '87 Series II VL Commodore
<bud...@cantech.net.au> wrote in message
news:3df6a81...@news.cantech.net.au...
Mike
!
Does the new gas seem the same as before or is it
really that much better, I spoke to Air cool or is
it coolair in perth and they reckon its not as
good (well almost) ?
mike
perth
In soliloque <3df6392b$0$184$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au>,
<gd...@iinet.net.au> Lord-Data kindly informs us...
Lord-Data
was (am) impressed with the system now .. its been non functional since I
got the car (about a year ago) so i've had no experience with the system
running the old gas, but it is quite good :)
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Michael Saunders (aka, Lord-Data)
: ICQ: 514055
: MSN: gd...@msn.com
: URL: http://www.divxcity.com
: EBay: http://www.ebayshops.com.au/id=30953730
: Current Car: '87 Series II VL Commodore
"Mike" <era...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:3df7593a$0$54...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
Mike
engine
>bay .. Works *VERY* well for a 16+ year old aircon .. surprisingly
well
>actually ..
This is interesting, if I understand correctly, you started out
with a standard air con VL (which was set up for the old gas)
or was it modified before you got it for the new R134a but
ran out before oyu bought it ?
Cause I'm trying to work out if R134a can go into a VL
when it used to be R12 or does it really need R134a+
rgds
mike
I'm still lookin fer doze headrests,
perth
Clockmeister
Ok, it's like this...
What they did basically did is
* replace the oil out of the system with PAG (R134a oil)
*Fit a couple of adaptor fittings to the R12 filler ports
*Recharged the system with R134a
The only problem with this cheap conversion is that they sometimes don't
bother changing the oil (to save time) and that because of the higher
running pressures the compressors have a greater tendency to expire after a
short period of time because the seals crap out.
If the oil is not changes, it turns acidic over time and will corrode the
system from within.
Operation can vary between poor to good, depending on the vehicle/system.
Regards,
Clockmeister.
Clockmeister
Lord-Data <gd...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:3df76360$0$191$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au...
> I dunno personally how it performs compared to the old gas, but I can say
I
> was (am) impressed with the system now .. its been non functional since I
> got the car (about a year ago) so i've had no experience with the system
> running the old gas, but it is quite good :)
>
It's not as good on systems not originally designed to use it because it is
not as efficient as a refrigerant but depending on the system it can work
quite well. On VL AC systems it works very well from my experience.
Regards,
Clockmeister.
Clockmeister
Clockmeister <gerr...@tnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:EhRJ9.6$1W2....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
Actually, that info might be a bit out of date... I'm not sure what the
difference is between R134a and R134a+ spec wise... can someone fill me in?
Regards,
Clockmeister.
David S. Maddison
+0800 Peter Pechmann <pur...@iinet.net.au> wrote:
>Hi chaps,
>
>Quick query,
>
>Have old forgotten air con in my VL, wonder if I can upgrade at minimal
>cost to the new gas type (is it R34?), ie. Not used for 5 yrs :( sob sob
[..]
I was told - and I don't know this for sure - that it is a myth that
you have to upgrade to the new gas. Old cars are allowed to use old
gas which has been stockpiled.
Check it out.
David
Lord-Data
none of these stickers that the guys have put over the engine bay warning
about the new gas. R143a can go into a VL aircon, but it needs modifications
I believe. how many of those mods can be done without pulling the whole dash
apart I dunno, but mine was $150 all up, and to my knowledge, was using the
old gas.
R134a+ would go in without mods .. but my stickers say R134a, as does the
work order/invoice.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Michael Saunders (aka, Lord-Data)
: ICQ: 514055
: MSN: gd...@msn.com
: URL: http://www.divxcity.com
: EBay: http://www.ebayshops.com.au/id=30953730
: Current Car: '87 Series II VL Commodore
"Mike" <era...@iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:3df76a92$0$54...@echo-01.iinet.net.au...
John Harvey
>I was told - and I don't know this for sure - that it is a myth that
>you have to upgrade to the new gas. Old cars are allowed to use old
>gas which has been stockpiled.
It's quite legal to use R12 still, only manufacture and importation is
prohibited. Actually there's still plenty of it about although those
who have supplies are generally reluctant to part with it. :)
Some of the older shopping centre units contain tonnes of it
(literally). I'm told that here's no shortage of buyers whenever one
is decommissioned.
It's all gonna finish up in the same place eventually as there's no
acceptable way to destroy it.
--
John H
David S. Maddison
2002 19:17:57 +1000 John Harvey <no_...@home.au> wrote:
>David S. Maddison wrote:
>
>>I was told - and I don't know this for sure - that it is a myth that
>>you have to upgrade to the new gas. Old cars are allowed to use old
>>gas which has been stockpiled.
>
>It's quite legal to use R12 still, only manufacture and importation is
>prohibited. Actually there's still plenty of it about although those
>who have supplies are generally reluctant to part with it. :)
[..]
And the US Miitary buys everything they can get their hands on because
for them, there is no acceptable replacement.
david
Lord-Data
reclaimed gas from other car aircon systems that have been decompressed ..
so your getting, at best, second hand gas .. possibly even more used as time
goes on .. "dirty gas" i believe its refered to ..
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
: Michael Saunders (aka, Lord-Data)
: ICQ: 514055
: MSN: gd...@msn.com
: URL: http://www.divxcity.com
: EBay: http://www.ebayshops.com.au/id=30953730
: Current Car: '87 Series II VL Commodore
"John Harvey" <no_...@home.au> wrote in message
news:obkgvuofj1hehpof5...@4ax.com...
Lord Ponsenby
news:obkgvuofj1hehpof5...@4ax.com:
>
> It's quite legal to use R12 still, only manufacture and
> importation is prohibited. Actually there's still plenty of it
> about although those who have supplies are generally reluctant
> to part with it. :)
>
> Some of the older shopping centre units contain tonnes of it
> (literally). I'm told that here's no shortage of buyers
> whenever one is decommissioned.
>
> It's all gonna finish up in the same place eventually as
> there's no acceptable way to destroy it.
>
> --
> John H
>
Interesting - the gent about to re-gas my R12 system was
determined to put 143a in it.
I twisted his arm a little, and he went to R34, or SP 34 -
whatever.
Wouldn't use LPG.
He muttered something about it being illegal to use the stuff why
I first asked.
Are you suggesting he was bullshiting?
Maybe I should twist the other arm a lot, and he'll put real R12
in the car?
Hell, he was soooo busy, I handed the bastard the compresson,
waited a week and a half for it to be repaired, refitted it and a
new R/D, and he somehow stuffed the TX valve on me next.
So I handed home the evaporator yesterday, he fitted a new valve
today and I've put the thing back in the car.
Reckon I've done my share.
So R12 will be pushed (I know he has some) if he can't be hauled
over the coals should someone with divine inspiration figure out I
have the stuff.
Good idea?
--
Toby
budgie
>Like snap, want to get my own VL air con back into use,
>
>!
>
>Does the new gas seem the same as before or is it
>really that much better, I spoke to Air cool or is
>it coolair in perth
AutoCool?
> and they reckon its not as
>good (well almost) ?
The industry consensus - to the extent that there is any - is that for
a system designed for R12, a conversion to R134a will give less
satisfactory performance (apart from costing if it is done properly
vis-a-vis oil etc).
VL's were R12 at birth.
For vehicles born as R134a, the system was sized and components
designed for the lesser performance of the gas.
Reputedly, R134a+ has performance more closely aligned to r12 than
R134a, and will go straight into a healthy R12 system without
requiring oil or fitting changes.
My own experience (VL88) R12-R134a is that there is a noticeable drop
in performance. Acceptable result, but noticeably lower grunt.
bud...@x.x.x.x
Yes, quite well - but not really in the same league as R12 in the same
car. Bought my VL at 15mths, and it was (obviously) still on R12.
now THAT was an ice-block machine. When it eventually leaked to the
point where it needed serious work, I had a compressor rebuild done
(seal was shot, etc) at the same time as the changeover to R134a.
Good, but as I said earlier, not as good as the R12.
Checked out the invoices - the job was finished in feb 96 and still
hasn't needed a regas.
John Harvey
>Interesting - the gent about to re-gas my R12 system was
>determined to put 143a in it.
>I twisted his arm a little, and he went to R34, or SP 34 -
>whatever.
>Wouldn't use LPG.
>He muttered something about it being illegal to use the stuff why
>I first asked.
>Are you suggesting he was bullshiting?
>Maybe I should twist the other arm a lot, and he'll put real R12
>in the car?
If he's telling you it's illegal to use R12 then he's certainly
bullshitting. If he's got the stuff, then what does he intend doing
with it otherwise?
When I did my accreditation, in 1991, we were given a copy of draft
legislation which would've made R12 a prohibited substance (like
smack). Someone in officialdom eventually realised that , unlike
smack, there's no way of disposing of it, so the legislation was never
enacted. This is probably what gave rise to the idea that R12 is
illegal to use.
I wouldn't expect him to put propane in a car, but it's probably not
illegal if he did. AFAIK only NSW has legislated against it (or
intends to) and AFAIK no one anywhere has ever been prosecuted for
doing it. I've never heard of a major mishap even though there must be
thousands of systems running on it -- I'm aware of people who've been
using it since the price of R12 hit $2 a kg around 1990. It also
works considerably better than R12 in an R12 system (cooling wise).
In Q there's no specific laws covering refrigeration and air
conditioning. There's an accreditation system and a code of practice
been in place since 1991, and while most working in the industry are
probably accredited, it's not a legal requirement. Anyone is free to
service their own.
--
John H
budgie
wrote:
(snips)
>I'm aware of people who've been
>using it since the price of R12 hit $2 a kg around 1990.
John, is that price correct? If you multiply charge size by that, you
get a totally insignificant cost per charge. Why would that put
anybody off buying/using R12?
John Harvey
>John, is that price correct? If you multiply charge size by that, you
>get a totally insignificant cost per charge. Why would that put
>anybody off buying/using R12?
I can recall paying $1.40 in the late 80's (before the Montreal
Protocol), IIRC the price rose rapidly to around $14 before the end of
1991. At the introduction of 134a, R12 subsidised the price of 134a
according to a predetermined formula with a rising component -- ie
the future price of R12 was known in advance, as was the phase out
date.
Prior to that time, plenty of users were in the habit of simply
topping up their own systems rather than pay someone to find and fix
the leak. I can recall once seeing a machinery contractor with a
trailer full of 20kg R12 cylinders behind his service vehicle, so his
machine must have had quite a leak. For some, the solution was to
change to propane at around 45ยข a kg, and it also cooled better. Some
would have changed over in anticipation of the demise of cheap R12.
If you happen to come across a dozer camp with a heap of 45kg domestic
LPG cylinders, they're probably not being used for the barbecue. :)
One of the aims of the code of practice was to eliminate topping up.
Nowadays faulty systems are supposed to be discharged into a recovery
unit and leak tested before recharging.
If industry, and individuals, had adopted better practices in the days
when R12 was cheaper than compressed air we'd probably still be using
it. Once upon a time it wasn't unusual to see refrigeration
mechanics use it to blow down condenser fins (or cool hot stubbies).
--
John H
Greg Stewart
>
> I was told - and I don't know this for sure - that it is a myth that
> you have to upgrade to the new gas. Old cars are allowed to use old
> gas which has been stockpiled.
>
> Check it out.
You can still use R12, it's darn expensive but still available.
I don't think it is legal to simply top up a system with R12, it has to be
tested for leaks, and any leaks repaired first.
Greg.
Marco Spaccavento
<bud...@x.x.x.x> wrote in message
news:3df88ccb...@news.cantech.net.au...
>
> Yes, quite well - but not really in the same league as R12 in the same
> car. Bought my VL at 15mths, and it was (obviously) still on R12.
> now THAT was an ice-block machine. When it eventually leaked to the
> point where it needed serious work, I had a compressor rebuild done
> (seal was shot, etc) at the same time as the changeover to R134a.
> Good, but as I said earlier, not as good as the R12.
Had a similar experience with our VP, which started out on R12 and was
changed to R134a a few years back. Result was good, but noticeably lower
cooling performance compared to R12. The poor ventilation characteristics
of the VN-VP (and possibly VR-S too) don't help in the slightest.
--
Marco Spaccavento
rbge...@iprimus.com.au
Clockmeister
Marco Spaccavento <rbge...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:ath2u4$13vpem$1...@ID-132730.news.dfncis.de...
They need recalibrated balance tubes but they often don't get changed during
a retrofit and AC performance suffers. R12 works a lot better in cars
designed to use it then R134a retrofitted to older systems, no question
about that.
There is also the problem of the the compressor running hotter with R134a
and tripping the sensor on the compressor which in turn cuts out the
compressor until it cools down again.
In fact there are many issues with VN/VP AC systems...
Regards,
Clockmeister.
Neil Fisher
<gerr...@tnet.com.au> wrote:
[snip]
>
>Actually, that info might be a bit out of date... I'm not sure what the
>difference is between R134a and R134a+ spec wise... can someone fill me in?
Yeah, where's that ex-knuckle-dragging, now rice-boyed lump, Krawlie
when you need him, eh? Out "Cruzin'" no doubt - bastard!
Neil
---
Neil Fisher / Bob Young
Thundercords
personal opinion unless otherwise noted.
Looking for spark plug leads?
Check out http://www.magnecor.com.au
Mike
http://www.originenergy.com.au/environment/files/R134a.pdf
Not much difference between R134a and R134a+ cept an
additive, reminds me of the bitron/promar days of
multi-level marketing - <sigh>
mike
In soliloque <3DF620A0...@iinet.net.au>, <pur...@iinet.net.au>
Peter Pechmann kindly informs us...
>
>Hi chaps,
>
>Quick query,
>
>Have old forgotten air con in my VL, wonder if I can upgrade at
minimal
>cost to the new gas type (is it R34?), ie. Not used for 5 yrs :( sob
sob
>
Purple_Engine
so we can hassle em for more info, like DIY - huh what did you
say do it yourself and save a bundle ?!
*grin*
purple_engine
Purple_Engine
Got the car done, ended up with R134a+ and a bit of orange
dye cause the guy at autocool thought it would be a good
idea.
True, I didnt get jerked around and the car was good today
with outside temps of 40Deg (Yes I'm in Perth) and managed
to keep me and a passanger cool even though slow traffic
trhough city at hottest part of day,
Though the gas is a little less cooler then I remember of
the old R12 gas some 5 years ago - but not much, so I'd
recommend Mike Thompson at AutoCool but wait till after
holidays as they are sooo soo busy, Mike needs a hands
free phone the number of calls he made when I went to
drop the car off and pick it up,
Thanks guys - hey there's a ref to the gas type somewhere
on this thread for R134a+
thanks heaps
purple_engine