WHAT THE HELL IS IT WITH COMMODORE DRIVERS?!?!?!?!?
John O'Neill
Surely, if there are ANY POLICE at all who read this NG, or if anyone
is in E-mail contact with a Police person.
DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE NUTTERS IN COMMODORES ON FTG ROAD!!!!!
I was almost witness to what could have been a horrible crash twice
this week!
1st incident. Tuesday 10:30pm, on the section heading toward the Shell
Servo.. A VK Commodore (gee what a suprise) travelling at at
least 130kph in the rain, swings around a car in an insane overtaking
move that leaves that car aquaplaning in the right hand lane, the car
bouces off the gutter and wobbles all over the road, just missing
another car..which had to swerver out of the way to avoid a side to
side collision.
Not only this, he ran the red light at the intersection just opposite
the servo, thank god the intersection was empty at the time...
2nd incident. Tonight, about 8:45pm, approaching major intersection
of SpringVale Road and FTG Road from the Melbourne Side, there is
small intersection before this one, anyway.. another Commodore decides
to just blast through a red light that had been red for a few seconds,
just missing a car that had stopped in the middle of a right hand turn
from the other direction.. The maniac stuck his finger up at the car
he missed only through the quick reflexes of the other driver..Oh, the
guy that ran the red light nearly lost control of his car as he pulled
a left turn onto Springvale road at the filter lane...he was almost
sideways...
What the hell is it with this road? It is the ONLY part of melbourne
where I see this sort of crap! 90% of these nutters are driving
Commodores!! What the hell is it with these people?!?
Any Commodore drivers on this NG care to comment? Do Commodores have
some sort of 'tough' image or something? Or do they come with lobotomy
kits instead of a spare tyre? Should I just shut up and get a life?
People at work have been talking about bizare driving, almost all of
them report the bad drivers driving Commodores..
-JohnO
Ed Cetera
John O'Neill <jon...@netspace.net.au> wrote:
> Any Commodore drivers on this NG care to comment? Do Commodores
have
> People at work have been talking about bizare driving, almost all
of
> them report the bad drivers driving Commodores..
I don't know if it is just a Melbourne thing (never noticed it when I
lived in Sydney) or just a recent thing, but the average Commo driver
definitely seems to be a tool. (notice: average. quite likely that a
few absolute tools are bringing blame on the rest).
To tar all with the same brush, Falcon drivers seem to be unaware that
there are any other cars on the road, and Commodore drivers seem to be
competing with them all.
tim
--
###
This email address is a spam trap, and is never checked.
Reply to tim (a) paton . net
Tim Paton, Melbourne, Australia
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Ewan Fleming
John O'Neill <jon...@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.13fc0c607...@news.netspace.net.au...
> Any Commodore drivers on this NG care to comment? Do Commodores have
> some sort of 'tough' image or something? Or do they come with lobotomy
> kits instead of a spare tyre? Should I just shut up and get a life?
>
> People at work have been talking about bizare driving, almost all of
> them report the bad drivers driving Commodores..
>
> -JohnO
Scott Hillard
> What the hell is it with this road? It is the ONLY part of melbourne
> where I see this sort of crap! 90% of these nutters are driving
> Commodores!! What the hell is it with these people?!?
> Any Commodore drivers on this NG care to comment?
Yes, I'd like to see a special division of the highway patrol set up to
execute people like that on the spot.
I'm all for cruising at 180km/h on the Hume through Victoria, but anyone
running a red light like that should have their right to life forfeited.
No excuses, never, ever.
> Do Commodores have some sort of 'tough' image or something?
No, I was an arrogant prick long before I first drove a Commodore.
> Should I just shut up and get a life?
Couldn't hurt.
ydou...@yahoo.com
worth driving! :-)
DAN
VK Calais
In article <8msk05$cfd$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Ed Cetera <timp...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> and Commodore drivers seem to
> be
> competing with them all.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Marty Hogan
have accepted it, yes, they have a wanker tough image amongst the try hard
wanna-bes......
Dan--
Hey I resent that...
Sure I own a Commodore but that doesent mean I drive it like a stupid
fool..
--
Regards
Dan
Remove .ss5.7 from the end of the email address b4 replying.
www.marmon.org
Gary Hansen
Surely, if there are ANY POLICE at all who read this NG, or if anyone
is in E-mail contact with a Police person.
DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE NUTTER WOMEN ON FTG ROAD!!!!!
I was almost witness to what could have been a horrible crash twice
this week!
1st incident. Tuesday 10:30pm, on the section heading toward the Shell
Servo.. A woman (gee what a suprise) travelling at at
least 130kph in the rain, swings around a car in an insane overtaking
move that leaves that car aquaplaning in the right hand lane, the car
bouces off the gutter and wobbles all over the road, just missing
another car..which had to swerver out of the way to avoid a side to
side collision.
Not only this, she ran the red light at the intersection just opposite
the servo, thank god the intersection was empty at the time...
2nd incident. Tonight, about 8:45pm, approaching major intersection
of SpringVale Road and FTG Road from the Melbourne Side, there is
small intersection before this one, anyway.. another Woman decides
to just blast through a red light that had been red for a few seconds,
just missing a car that had stopped in the middle of a right hand turn
from the other direction.. The maniac stuck her finger up at the car
she missed only through the quick reflexes of the other driver..Oh, the
woman that ran the red light nearly lost control of her car as she pulled
a left turn onto Springvale road at the filter lane...she was almost
sideways...
What the hell is it with this road? It is the ONLY part of melbourne
where I see this sort of crap! 90% of these nutters are women
What the hell is it with these people?!?
Any women drivers on this NG care to comment? Do women have
some sort of 'tough' image or something? Or do they come with lobotomy
kits instead of a spare tyre? Should I just shut up and get a life?
People at work have been talking about bizare driving, almost all of
them report the bad drivers being women..
-JohnO
Jason James
are attractive to do up. Most of the dingbats I've seen in C/dores, have
the 6, and drive them like mad to just keep up with the traffic.
James (get serious get a 351)
--
<<<<<JJ
"John O'Neill" <jon...@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.13fc0c607...@news.netspace.net.au...
> Hi All,
>
> Surely, if there are ANY POLICE at all who read this NG, or if anyone
> is in E-mail contact with a Police person.
>
> DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE NUTTERS IN COMMODORES ON FTG ROAD!!!!!
>
> I was almost witness to what could have been a horrible crash twice
> this week!
>
> 1st incident. Tuesday 10:30pm, on the section heading toward the Shell
> Servo.. A VK Commodore (gee what a suprise) travelling at at
> least 130kph in the rain, swings around a car in an insane overtaking
> move that leaves that car aquaplaning in the right hand lane, the car
> bouces off the gutter and wobbles all over the road, just missing
> another car..which had to swerver out of the way to avoid a side to
> side collision.
>
> Not only this, he ran the red light at the intersection just opposite
> the servo, thank god the intersection was empty at the time...
>
> 2nd incident. Tonight, about 8:45pm, approaching major intersection
> of SpringVale Road and FTG Road from the Melbourne Side, there is
> small intersection before this one, anyway.. another Commodore decides
> to just blast through a red light that had been red for a few seconds,
> just missing a car that had stopped in the middle of a right hand turn
> from the other direction.. The maniac stuck his finger up at the car
> he missed only through the quick reflexes of the other driver..Oh, the
> guy that ran the red light nearly lost control of his car as he pulled
> a left turn onto Springvale road at the filter lane...he was almost
> sideways...
>
> What the hell is it with this road? It is the ONLY part of melbourne
> where I see this sort of crap! 90% of these nutters are driving
> Commodores!! What the hell is it with these people?!?
>
> Any Commodore drivers on this NG care to comment? Do Commodores have
> some sort of 'tough' image or something? Or do they come with lobotomy
> kits instead of a spare tyre? Should I just shut up and get a life?
>
> People at work have been talking about bizare driving, almost all of
> them report the bad drivers driving Commodores..
>
> -JohnO
M@W
Dan-- <webm...@marmon.org.ss5.7> wrote in message
news:3991D2A8...@marmon.org.ss5.7...
>
>
> Marty Hogan wrote:
> >
> > John, Commodore boys have been like this for a while now, everyone seems
to
> > have accepted it, yes, they have a wanker tough image amongst the try
hard
> > wanna-bes......
>
> Hey I resent that...
> Sure I own a Commodore but that doesent mean I drive it like a stupid
> fool..
>
So do I. I've owned two Commodores... Moving from the VL to the Vectra was
a pleasant surprise as far as how other people on the road treated me.
The problem is that Holden have worked very hard in the past few years
building up the image of the Commodore as a racing machine. Obviously it
helps their sales, but also attracts all the boy racers to Commodores of any
shape and size. A young hoon given the choice will "probably" pick a
Commodore over a Falcon (apologies to Blue Oval Fans) Magna, Camry, etc...
So the result is more hoons in Commodores. The Gully is a well known hoon
area. Anyone else have experience in Dandenong, Broadmeadows or Footscray?
Dan--
"M@W" wrote:
>
> Dan-- <webm...@marmon.org.ss5.7> wrote in message
> news:3991D2A8...@marmon.org.ss5.7...
> >
> >
> > Marty Hogan wrote:
> > >
> > > John, Commodore boys have been like this for a while now, everyone seems
> to
> > > have accepted it, yes, they have a wanker tough image amongst the try
> hard
> > > wanna-bes......
> >
> > Hey I resent that...
> > Sure I own a Commodore but that doesent mean I drive it like a stupid
> > fool..
> >
>
> So do I. I've owned two Commodores... Moving from the VL to the Vectra was
> a pleasant surprise as far as how other people on the road treated me.
>
> The problem is that Holden have worked very hard in the past few years
> building up the image of the Commodore as a racing machine. Obviously it
> helps their sales, but also attracts all the boy racers to Commodores of any
> shape and size. A young hoon given the choice will "probably" pick a
> Commodore over a Falcon (apologies to Blue Oval Fans) Magna, Camry, etc...
True there. But look at Subaru with their WRX's etc.. Some clown in a
WRX drove me off the road last week. Luckily I didn't hit anything.
Charlie
there are so many around... I see just as much crap from other cars.
Though of course the commodores look far better doing it. :)
Daryl Walford
described and not only in Commodores although they do seem worse than
the rest.
I bet they were P platers.
I think these drivers have some sort of inferiority complex and
therefore feel the need to demonstrate to the rest of us how good they
are.
I am very wary if I see a P plater driving an old Commodore and I am
very scared if they are wearing a baseball cap back to front :-)
Daryl
Kieron Murphy
<jon...@netspace.net.au> wrote:
> People at work have been talking about bizare driving, almost all of
> them report the bad drivers driving Commodores..
>
I'm surprised no one has mentioned that Johns examples may have been
stolen!! these older Commies are the main targets for joy riders.
I do agree though, the proportion of d/heads driving Commodores is
higher than other makes and as has already been pointed out, its
mainly to do with Holdens marketing over the years, if Ford had kept
their performance image up like Holden, then these guys would be in
Falcons !!
Kieron
Scott Lang
I drive a commodore and I have found a lot of people want to race me,
especially young people wanting to prove that their car is "better" or
"faster" than mine. I put that down to the look of my car. But not all
comodore drivers are like that. I certainly do go round driving like an
idiot and a lot of other commodore drivers dont. My hold hamily have
commodores and only my younger brother sometimes drives like an idiot.
I certainly see a lot people driving excels who drive like idiots but there
are a lot of them on the roads, just like commodores but not all excel
drivers drive like idiots. but the minority that everyone sees gives the
group a bad name.
Scott
"John O'Neill" <jon...@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.13fc0c607...@news.netspace.net.au...
> People at work have been talking about bizare driving, almost all of
> them report the bad drivers driving Commodores..
>
> -JohnO
Dan--
Scott Lang wrote:
>
> I think thats a bit of an over generalisation there,
> I drive a commodore and I have found a lot of people want to race me,
> especially young people wanting to prove that their car is "better" or
> "faster" than mine. I put that down to the look of my car. But not all
> comodore drivers are like that. I certainly do go round driving like an
> idiot and a lot of other commodore drivers dont. My hold hamily have
> commodores and only my younger brother sometimes drives like an idiot.
> I certainly see a lot people driving excels who drive like idiots but there
> are a lot of them on the roads, just like commodores but not all excel
> drivers drive like idiots. but the minority that everyone sees gives the
> group a bad name.
Yeah.. most of my relatives owns Commodores (its a tradition really).
The reason I own a Commodore is.
*Tradition to the family
*Its roomy and comfortable to travel 4-5 passengers.
*Handles very well, looks great.. (for a VP SS)
*Sounds great and plenty of power.
*I spent plenty of $$$$ on it to make it handle and perform like a
beauty..
With 220 kw on tap is a fair bit of power, also I know it has plenty of
go in it but it doesn't mean I drive it like a wanna be Peter Brock..
Sure I do give it some curry from time to time.
Jake the Dog
>
> So the result is more hoons in Commodores. The Gully is a well known hoon
> area. Anyone else have experience in Dandenong, Broadmeadows or
Footscray?
>
that's ignorant rhetoric. where did you get that from? ftg has never been
known as a hoon area now or in the past. in fact of the 20km or so of ftg
road, only the first 500m of it is actually in ftg.
you mention, broadmeadows and footscray too; the days when these were
hotspots are looong gone. breaside and sandown (near dandenong) were the hot
spots last i was in the street racing scene and that was about 5 yrs ago.
Marty Hogan
Dan-- <webm...@marmon.org.ss5.7> wrote in message
news:3991D2A8...@marmon.org.ss5.7...
>
>
> Marty Hogan wrote:
> >
> > John, Commodore boys have been like this for a while now, everyone seems
to
> > have accepted it, yes, they have a wanker tough image amongst the try
hard
> > wanna-bes......
>
> Hey I resent that...
> fool..
Sorry, didnt say all commodore owners tho, just "commodore boys" Im sure you
know the type im referring to ...
Dan--
Yeah I sure do..
:-)
Smith.
sexuality , and as such, a large engined and large physical presence (a
falcadore of some kind or another) reinforces the 'macho' image they believe
society wishes them to portray.
hehe they have small penises!! hehe
hold...@pnc.com.au
I just want to clear one thing up. Not all people in commodores drive
like complete dickheads. I have an old commodore, im 17 and on my Ps.
I do not drive like this cause I actually want to stay alive and not
crash my car. I rekon that people who do drive like this probably
deserve to have a crash but the thing is they will end up killing some
other innocent person and get away with it.
However it is not only commodore drivers because i have seen this sort
of thing from people in rep-mobile camry's and magna's as well and
probably as often or more often than wankers in commodores doing the
same thing. You probably only notice this because you dislike
commodores or commodore drivers but you conveniently turn a blind eye
to other cars doing the same thing. People just don't hate cars like
the camry or magna enough to be bothered posting a topic like Wankers
in Magna's - WTF is with them? or something like that.
Next time you see anyone in any sort of car doing this how about you
put that on the newsgroup to prove that it is not just you hating
commodore drivers.
Keep crusin'
Wazza
In article <MPG.13fc0c607...@news.netspace.net.au>,
Kimbo
1. Since most Falcadores are fleet/company vehicles does this mean the
companies have "little dick syndrome"?
2. The majority of (male) private buyers of Falcadores are family men, does
this mean they have "little dick syndrome" but know how to use it?
3. If "little dick syndrome" is exclusive to Falcadore drivers how do you
explain the RiceBoys? Have you ever seen a baby seat in the back of a
RiceBoy?
4. Do female revheads in Falcodores also suffer from "little dick syndrome"?
:)
"Smith." <akss...@one.net.au> wrote in message
news:3992...@pink.one.net.au...
John O'Neill
I see where you are comming from, but here is ANOTHER EXAMPLE!!
Tonight I was working late on unit testing some software (by the
way, I'm coding the baking side of the NRMA float).
So, here I am again, cruising in the left lane on FTG road with
a few other cars dotted around, this time I'm heading between
Springvale road and the Wheelers hill pub..
Anyway, there's some 'P' plater driving along in the right hand lane
at about 80k's (hold your horses) in a little hatchback (old laser).
This car is about 50meters ahead of me. Anyway, A (Guess what car it
was??) White VT Commodore S vehicle comes thundering up from behind in
the left lane..
I just sit there at 80k's After being tailgated for a while and given
a bit of the high beam, he decides to play with someone else, you
guessed it the 'P' plater, now .. I tend to give these guys and girls
the benefit of the doubt, they're new to the whole driving thing and
sometimes they do silly things like sit in the right lane..
Anyway, the commodore driver highbeams the poor kid and sits less than
1ft away from the car, horn blazing away, after a few seconds of this
sort of assault the kid pulls over to the left, not being satisfied
with his victory the commodore pulls over to the left too and continues
the high beams and horn for about 1 km...
What can you do? Nothing...If i was to start agroing the guy who knows
what he'd do..I got his plate though..
Anyway, who believes this shit about Commodores being 'performance
cars' anyway?
-JohnO
Glenn Ryan
> I dunno about the ONLY car on the road, but definately the only one
> worth driving! :-)
>
> DAN
>
> VK Calais
Hmmmm, under 21, first ever car, 202 powered brick with luxury (less luxury
than a new Excel with central locking, e/windows, e/mirrors) interior 'goes
sic mate!' Get a life, drive something else, they are shitboxes (early
C/dores). And yes, almost ALL of you young Commondore drivers are WANKERS,
Falcon drivers seem much better on average.
(I am not impressed by either early Holdens or Fords, although late model
models from both camps are 'nice.')
Glenn Ryan
> Yeah.. most of my relatives owns Commodores (its a tradition really).
> The reason I own a Commodore is.
> *Tradition to the family
and although they have changed so much, I will buy it because they like it.
I will grow to like it eventually. (sarc.)
> *Its roomy and comfortable to travel 4-5 passengers.
Almost every 4 door car takes 4 people comfortably, and early Commondores
don't have as much room as current Camrys and Magnas!!! How often do you
take 4-5 people in your car. Personally, in the last 2 years, rearely would
an MR2 (2 seater) have been a problem for me, except for getting my pushbike
into!!
> *Handles very well, looks great.. (for a VP SS)
Arguable, and personally, it handles like shit and looks like REALLY shit.
> *Sounds great and plenty of power.
Fair bit of power, but they are big cars too, and I really don't understand
why the V8 rumble is that great. BTW, MOST Commondores ARE 6 cyclinders, and
the early ones are lucky to put out 80kw.
> *I spent plenty of $$$$ on it to make it handle and perform like a
> beauty..
Many other cars for similiar or less money would handle substationally
better!!! And personally, a VP can never handle 'like a beauty' and retain
good road manners. How many Commondores (street driven ones) race? Very few,
and the ones that do race against Falcadores. Why? Cos they suck!! Too big,
not well devolped suspension.
> With 220 kw on tap is a fair bit of power, also I know it has plenty of
> go in it but it doesn't mean I drive it like a wanna be Peter Brock..
But we're saying so many early Commondores and young drivers ARE wannabes,
or pretenders, of Brockie and Lowdes.
> Sure I do give it some curry from time to time.
Most expensive curry shot I've ever witnessed besides a heavily ported 20B
rotary!!!
GMH
Do us all a favour and catch a friggen bus eh!..
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
John O'Neill
people doing dumb things, heck I've even copped a bit of horn
blowing for being a bit dense sometimes.
What I'm talking about is the premediated, deliberate and
intimidating/dangerous driving practices I see on the road and they are
Almost always guys in Commodores.
-JohnO
Marty Hogan
Smith. <akss...@one.net.au> wrote in message
news:3992...@pink.one.net.au...
> i've heard they have small penises and are uncomfortable with their
> sexuality , and as such, a large engined and large physical presence (a
> falcadore of some kind or another) reinforces the 'macho' image they
believe
> society wishes them to portray.
>
> hehe they have small penises!! hehe
Nope, a big car isnt a penis extension, its a completely different big penis
all together....
Marty
Dan--
Glenn Ryan wrote:
>
> Dan-- <webm...@marmon.org.ss5.7> wrote in message
> news:399218D1...@marmon.org.ss5.7...
> > Yeah.. most of my relatives owns Commodores (its a tradition really).
> > The reason I own a Commodore is.
> > *Tradition to the family
> Great reason, seriously, heaps of the family fucked up and chose Commodores,
> and although they have changed so much, I will buy it because they like it.
> I will grow to like it eventually. (sarc.)
Oi!. No one calls my family fucked up only I do :-).
> > *Its roomy and comfortable to travel 4-5 passengers.
> Almost every 4 door car takes 4 people comfortably, and early Commondores
> don't have as much room as current Camrys and Magnas!!! How often do you
> take 4-5 people in your car. Personally, in the last 2 years, rearely would
> an MR2 (2 seater) have been a problem for me, except for getting my pushbike
> into!!
True, but im just stating my reasons..
>
> > *Handles very well, looks great.. (for a VP SS)
> Arguable, and personally, it handles like shit and looks like REALLY shit.
Had plenty of people comment on how it looks and handle and the majority
is very good to excellent..
>
> > *Sounds great and plenty of power.
> Fair bit of power, but they are big cars too, and I really don't understand
> why the V8 rumble is that great. BTW, MOST Commondores ARE 6 cyclinders, and
> the early ones are lucky to put out 80kw.
Aww c'mon! get with the times.. :-)
>
> > *I spent plenty of $$$$ on it to make it handle and perform like a
> > beauty..
> Many other cars for similiar or less money would handle substationally
> better!!! And personally, a VP can never handle 'like a beauty' and retain
> good road manners. How many Commondores (street driven ones) race? Very few,
> and the ones that do race against Falcadores. Why? Cos they suck!! Too big,
> not well devolped suspension.
I had specialists to look, tweak, tune and work on the suspension get
the car to handle better than most eh!?
But the main thing is its my car and I can do any damn thing I would
like to do..
But I do not use it as a toy!
>
> > With 220 kw on tap is a fair bit of power, also I know it has plenty of
> > go in it but it doesn't mean I drive it like a wanna be Peter Brock..
> But we're saying so many early Commondores and young drivers ARE wannabes,
> or pretenders, of Brockie and Lowdes.
True there but also depending on the driver too..
> > Sure I do give it some curry from time to time.
> Most expensive curry shot I've ever witnessed besides a heavily ported 20B
> rotary!!!
ok..
Jake the Dog
> > beauty..
> Many other cars for similiar or less money would handle substationally
> better!!!
name some? all the big cars provide similar handling and ride.
And personally, a VP can never handle 'like a beauty' and retain
> good road manners. How many Commondores (street driven ones) race? Very
few,
> and the ones that do race against Falcadores. Why? Cos they suck!! Too
big,
> not well devolped suspension.
>
if u think u can't make a commy or falcon handle then u don't know what your
talking about. if the suspension/wheel package is done *correctly* they
handle well.
Michael
Glenn Ryan <les...@netlink.com.au> wrote in message
news:8murla$6bj$1...@news.netlink.com.au...
> <ydou...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8mt5mr$oce$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > I dunno about the ONLY car on the road, but definately the only one
> > worth driving! :-)
> >
> > DAN
> >
> > VK Calais
>
> Hmmmm, under 21, first ever car, 202 powered brick with luxury (less
luxury
> than a new Excel with central locking, e/windows, e/mirrors) interior
'goes
> sic mate!' Get a life, drive something else, they are shitboxes (early
> C/dores). And yes, almost ALL of you young Commondore drivers are WANKERS,
> Falcon drivers seem much better on average.
Hahahaha yeah sure whatever mate. I know a lot of people post crap on here
and you seem to be the leader of the pack.
Michael
(Ford driver - Observer of bad driving in all commen makes/models)
ydou...@yahoo.com
"Glenn Ryan" <les...@netlink.com.au> wrote:
> Hmmmm, under 21
WRONG
> first ever car
WRONG
> 202 powered brick
WRONG
> Get a life, drive something else, they are shitboxes
> (early
> C/dores).
So enlighten me, what is a real car then?
> And yes, almost ALL of you young Commondore drivers are
> WANKERS,
> Falcon drivers seem much better on average.
Gross generalization! I think I'm a good driver (compared to some I've
seen & know).
> (I am not impressed by either early Holdens or Fords, although late
> model
> models from both camps are 'nice.')
Each to his own. Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. If you are a
real car enthusiest, you will know a nice car when you see one whether
it be a 4 pot, 6 or 8, rotor, Commodore, Mazda whatever!
DAN
ydou...@yahoo.com
James, mistakenly wrote:
> James (get serious get a 351)
Dan--
Damn right there.. :-)
GMH
>Dan-- <webm...@marmon.org.ss5.7> wrote in message
>news:399218D1...@marmon.org.ss5.7...
>> Yeah.. most of my relatives owns Commodores (its a tradition
really).
>> The reason I own a Commodore is.
>> *Tradition to the family
>Great reason, seriously, heaps of the family fucked up and
chose Commodores,
Thats a lame and low thing to say about anyones family. It shows
your ignorance about things.
>and although they have changed so much, I will buy it because
they like it.
>I will grow to like it eventually. (sarc.)
>
>
>> *Its roomy and comfortable to travel 4-5 passengers.
>Almost every 4 door car takes 4 people comfortably, and early
Commondores
>don't have as much room as current Camrys and Magnas!!! How
often do you
>take 4-5 people in your car. Personally, in the last 2 years,
rearely would
>an MR2 (2 seater) have been a problem for me, except for
getting my pushbike
>into!!
>
>> *Handles very well, looks great.. (for a VP SS)
>Arguable, and personally, it handles like shit and looks like
REALLY shit.
Yet again shows your ignorance.
>
>> *Sounds great and plenty of power.
>Fair bit of power, but they are big cars too, and I really
don't understand
>why the V8 rumble is that great. BTW, MOST Commondores ARE 6
cyclinders, and
>the early ones are lucky to put out 80kw.
>
>> *I spent plenty of $$$$ on it to make it handle and perform
like a
>> beauty..
>Many other cars for similiar or less money would handle
substationally
>better!!! And personally, a VP can never handle 'like a beauty'
and retain
>good road manners. How many Commondores (street driven ones)
race? Very few,
>and the ones that do race against Falcadores. Why? Cos they
suck!! Too big,
>not well devolped suspension.
What glue have you been sniffing??. You got no clue dont you on
suspension and wheel set ups do you!. Again shows your ignorance.
>
>> With 220 kw on tap is a fair bit of power, also I know it has
plenty of
>> go in it but it doesn't mean I drive it like a wanna be Peter
Brock..
>But we're saying so many early Commondores and young drivers
ARE wannabes,
>or pretenders, of Brockie and Lowdes.
>
>> Sure I do give it some curry from time to time.
>Most expensive curry shot I've ever witnessed besides a heavily
ported 20B
>rotary!!!
Every car owner has every right to spend money on his/her car.
Your the fool that started the Falcon XF's are not even worth
talking about post ha!?.
Again it really shows your ignorance once more.
Bazz
GMH
Holdenman
commodore and they get the shit taken out of them. What is it with you
guys. Everyone can have their own opinion about cars and think that
they are nice and they should be able to do it without being slagged
off.
Personally I think that things like a heavily ported 20B rotary is a
WOFTAM but I don't come in here and tell everyone about how shit i
rekon a rotary is and i don't plan on doing it. Serously man get a
life and stop tellin us how fucked you rekon commodores are.
Why don't you tell everyone on the group what sort of car you have so
that we can all start our own threads like Glenn's car is a piece of
shit or something similar or do you only own that pushbike that you
would have had trouble getting into an MR2 (if you could afford to stop
dreaming and buy one that is).
Keep Cruisin'
Wazza
John O'Neill
JohnO has spoken...
Glenn Ryan
news:11a593e1.5cd13e4f@usw-> Every car owner has every right to spend money
on his/her car.
> Your the fool that started the Falcon XF's are not even worth
> talking about post ha!?.
> Again it really shows your ignorance once more.
Of course they do, but this guy replied to why Commodore drivers act like
dickheads on the road with something like, "I own a VK Calais and
Commondores are top shit and the best cars on the road."
Anyone who knows anything about cars would say that is wrong. And listing
family members choosing the car, so I thought I'd follow tradition. What's
that?? That's the most stupid reason I've ever heard for buying a car.
Tradition.
Don't people look at the best value car for their needs. For some it's
power, some economy, other safety, hell looks are important. But this guys
most important feature of a prospective car was a Holden badge to the left
of the Commondore badge.
Call me ignorant for saying that is FUCKIN stupid, but personally that
sounds STUPID, and if that represents the vast majority of Falcadore owners,
God help us.
My 2 cents worth.
Glenn Ryan
<ydou...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8mvo2h$m5f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> Each to his own. Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. If you are a
> real car enthusiest, you will know a nice car when you see one whether
> it be a 4 pot, 6 or 8, rotor, Commodore, Mazda whatever!
>
> DAN
I do reconize good cars (opinion) and many are V8s. Ferraris, BMWs,
Mercedes, Lexus (although the TT motor is better), Corvettes, VT SIIs,
Cobras, etc, but an early Commodore, NO WAY!!!! They are shit. If you knew
anything about a performance car like you all seem to think they are, there
is something you are forgetting. Handling. A VK does not handle that well,
actually, the handling is bloody awful. My uncle owns a VT, and he thinks
the steering is still shit, and it is an S model. (supercharged)
Like I said, I like some V8s. I love many 6s. (Supras, Skylines, 300zx, M3,
etc.) I love many 4 cyclinders. (I think everyone knows the good 4
cyclinders, although 200sxs are a personal favourite). I like many rotaries,
although some are horrible.
Because I see some shitbox Kingswood with a recent respray, big polish Chev
big block and a minitub in the rear doesn't mean I have to go, WOW, That's
awesome. You guys in Commondores (generalisation, but many will agree) are
the ones that shovel the most shit, and yes, you guys on average are the
worst drivers in Oz.
Glenn Ryan
> If you want to REV it..... CHEV it!
Sorry, out of interest, how high does a stock Chev 351 from the '80s rev
to??? The redline would be set well before 5000rpm I guess.
Oh well, stick with that clever play on words, but really, they don't rev.
Maybe if they did they'd make some decent power. (Can be taken as
constructive criticism or bait, you decide!!)
$CJ
> <ydou...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8mvo2h$m5f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Each to his own. Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. If you are a
> > real car enthusiest, you will know a nice car when you see one whether
> > it be a 4 pot, 6 or 8, rotor, Commodore, Mazda whatever!
> I do reconize good cars (opinion) and many are V8s. Ferraris, BMWs,
> Mercedes, Lexus (although the TT motor is better), Corvettes, VT SIIs,
> Cobras, etc, but an early Commodore, NO WAY!!!! They are shit. If you knew
Fair comparison. Not.
> anything about a performance car like you all seem to think they are, there
> is something you are forgetting. Handling. A VK does not handle that well,
> actually, the handling is bloody awful. My uncle owns a VT, and he thinks
> the steering is still shit, and it is an S model. (supercharged)
So that S pack and supercharger should improve the steering 'eh?
> awesome. You guys in Commondores (generalisation, but many will agree) are
> the ones that shovel the most shit, and yes, you guys on average are the
> worst drivers in Oz.
Yeah, and on average the best drivers would be commie drivers too, seen
as the Commodore would probably be the most popular car on the road.
nitro496 nospam
<les...@netlink.com.au> wrote:
><ydou...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8mvqe9$nq9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
>> If you want to REV it..... CHEV it!
>
>Sorry, out of interest, how high does a stock Chev 351 from the '80s rev
>to??? The redline would be set well before 5000rpm I guess.
Sorry Glen, but you just went in to the "bucket of shit" file. To get
out, post an appology for your stupid comment and know a little more
about stuff before you put it down.
If you do not know anything you look exactly like the wanker you are
trying to set straight.
Fords have 351's Chevs are 350's, amongst other things.
I am no bow tie fan, but I can tell you they do rev up quite well.
Your guess is worthless.
Regards
STU B
jake the dog
> <ydou...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8mvqe9$nq9$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > If you want to REV it..... CHEV it!
>
> Sorry, out of interest, how high does a stock Chev 351 from the '80s rev
> to??? The redline would be set well before 5000rpm I guess.
>
> Maybe if they did they'd make some decent power. (Can be taken as
> constructive criticism or bait, you decide!!)
>
>
aah well, chev v8's don't need to rev to 8000rpm to make power.
funny haha - you *guess* they rev less then 5000rpm? wrong you idiot. btw,
351 is ford not chev... you really don't know what you're talking about.
jd
Holdenman
Was that catch a bus comment directed at me? If it was maybe you
should wake up to youself and relise that your not the best driver on
the road either. Everyone has to learn sometime and what are my other
options? I could catch a bus until i wasn't on my Ps anymore and then
start driving, would that be any good? No because i wouldn't have
learnt how to drive. You don't need to give every P plater shit just
because they are on their Ps and you think that every p plater is a
hoon or a dickhead out to kill themselves.
As i said in my last post, i don't do stupid things on the road because
i dont want to kill myself or anyone else and i wasnt given a car by my
parents as alot of other p platers i know have been so i actually care
about my car too. Sure everyone can take the shit out of me and say
its only a cheap old commodore which it is but i paid for it myself, it
was all i could afford and at the moment i cant afford to get another
car so i am even less likely to go out and act stupidly.
If the comment wasn't directed to me then just ignore this because i am
sure as hell that it would go for what alot of people on this ng are
thinking.
Keep Cruisin'
Wazza
In article <25e18028...@usw-ex0103-086.remarq.com>,
GMH <gen3NO...@autospeed.com.invalid> wrote:
> Mate..
> Do us all a favour and catch a friggen bus eh!..
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
>
>
--
Marty Hogan
The S is meant to mean SPORT right ? so, it should improve it, dont think it
does tho ...
>
> > awesome. You guys in Commondores (generalisation, but many will agree)
are
> > the ones that shovel the most shit, and yes, you guys on average are the
> > worst drivers in Oz.
>
> Yeah, and on average the best drivers would be commie drivers too, seen
> as the Commodore would probably be the most popular car on the road.
haha, thats a good one ...
Marty Hogan
John O'Neill <jon...@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.140110b0d...@news.netspace.net.au...
> Early Commodores are shit.
>
> JohnO has spoken...
-early
Glenn Ryan
news:3996AA17...@powerup.com.au...
> Hmm aside from the bump steer my vk (stock) takes corners heaps better
> than parents ef... both are rotten compared to anything mildly sporty
> though I'll agree. It's because they're not sportscars, they're family
> barges... saying that they're crap because they're not a sportscar is
> like saying your toasters crap because its not an oven.
But there are pleanty of cars of similiar size and weight to Commodores that
do handle well. And the original comment was how good Commodores are,
specifically a VK Commodore. I'm not saying they are crap because they
aren't a sportscar, I'm saying I think they are crap because they are:
underpowered
steering lacks feel/feedback
bodyroll is excessive
build quality is at best poor
interior sucks (personally the VT (maybe VR) is the first nice interior of a
Commodore, but the tacho still sucks.)
I don't mind people driving Commodores, good on them. It's great so many
people love their cars, but to say they are the best car around (although it
was hopefully tougue in check) is pathetic. And handling better than an EF,
I seriously doubt it!!! Maybe if you drove the EF as much as the VK, or
surpressed your Holden bias for a few minutes, you would realise it's a huge
step ahead. The only drawback of the EF is it's physically bigger, but hey,
every model gets bigger anyway!!!
Glenn Ryan
Holden 186, 202, 3L Nissan, 253, 308, 350
Ford 302, 351 <--- Don't know the pissy motors, although they might be
250ci??
Sorry, but the 350s and 351s I've been in don't get revved past 5000rpm,
(flat boring torque curve) and to rev them past that I presume you need to
do things like rods, pistons, cam, rockers, valve springs, etc. It's not
like a well built jap car that spinds to 7000rpm (if you want, 200sx & WRX
to name a few) stock standard. Of course higher redlines are acheived with
rods and pistons, cam, and a check on fuel delivery. GTRs in Japan do clutch
dumps at 9000rpm and leave 4 wheel skid marks for 30m up the road. (That's
on the way to a 9s pass, whereas a Chev would be doing the same black lines
trying to get grip to haul it's overweight ass down to a 13s pass if it's
lucky.)
So stun me dickheads, how far would you rev a 'standard' 350 Chev reguarly,
or more explicitlity, what is the recomended red line for a 350 Chev????
Try comparing standard Chevs, not $3k rebuilds.
A brand new Chev 350 has the following figures:
325HP @ 5200 and torque is 370 ft/lbs @ 3800 rpm
That's from a brand new Corvette, a '98/99 model I think, I know cos my
uncle's hotrod is using this motor. It runs 10.4:1 compression (much higher
than any commdore of you era ran), bigger valves, reverse flow coolant
(neccassary for high compression - read high power) and alloy heads. I don't
see your '80s Chev motors pulling anywhere near that, and Commodores I've
been in where getting revved to around 4000rpm MAX.
BTW, are you guys the type who drive autos and think their REALLY driving.
Yeh, thought so. Autos are so boring, they take half the driving experience
away.
jake the dog <jake...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:mvxl5.10279$I43....@news1.eburwd1.vic.optushome.com.au...
GMH
Nah that catch a friggen bus comment was to John that started
the bag the commodore thread. not to you..
Bazz..
GMH
>Hey Bazz
>
>GMH wrote:
>>
>> Hey Wazza
>>
>> Nah that catch a friggen bus comment was to John that started
>> the bag the commodore thread. not to you..
>>
>
>Shit mate havent been in this NG for long and your already in
the shit
>LOL.. :-)
He yeah, Didn't take me long didnt it. :)
Anyway I have emailed Wazza stating on what happend anyway. So I
think everything will be ok from then..
GMH
>On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 00:00:55 +1000, Charlie
<blo...@powerup.com.au>
>wrote:
>
>>Hmm aside from the bump steer my vk (stock) takes corners
heaps better
>>than parents ef... both are rotten compared to anything mildly
sporty
>>though I'll agree. It's because they're not sportscars,
they're family
>>barges... saying that they're crap because they're not a
sportscar is
>>like saying your toasters crap because its not an oven.
>
Is that before and after mods or before mods?
:-)
Hmm let me remember..
a few months ago I worked on a stock VK a few months ago.
New suspension kit, sports shocks, and stiffer springs,
different anti-roll bar. And lowered. Plus wider rims (inc mags)
It handled a lot better than my brothers XR6 EF Falcon (just as
not as fast or as quick)..
But without the suspension mods and tweaks the VK didnt handle
all that great..
Bazz.
Charlie
>
> <ydou...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:8mvo2h$m5f$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
> > Each to his own. Wake up and smell what you're shoveling. If you are a
> > real car enthusiest, you will know a nice car when you see one whether
> > it be a 4 pot, 6 or 8, rotor, Commodore, Mazda whatever!
> >
>
> I do reconize good cars (opinion) and many are V8s. Ferraris, BMWs,
> Mercedes, Lexus (although the TT motor is better), Corvettes, VT SIIs,
> Cobras, etc, but an early Commodore, NO WAY!!!! They are shit. If you knew
> is something you are forgetting. Handling. A VK does not handle that well,
> actually, the handling is bloody awful. My uncle owns a VT, and he thinks
> the steering is still shit, and it is an S model. (supercharged)
Hmm aside from the bump steer my vk (stock) takes corners heaps better
Dan--
John O'Neill wrote:
>
> Early Commodores are shit.
>
> JohnO has spoken...
Well good you have spoken great!.
Now next time you post something make sure it is worth reading and not a
blatant troll post eh!?
Dan--
GMH wrote:
>
> Hey Wazza
>
> Nah that catch a friggen bus comment was to John that started
> the bag the commodore thread. not to you..
>
> Bazz..'
Shit mate havent been in this NG for long and your already in the shit
LOL.. :-)
Charlie
> But there are pleanty of cars of similiar size and weight to Commodores that
> do handle well. And the original comment was how good Commodores are,
> specifically a VK Commodore. I'm not saying they are crap because they
> aren't a sportscar, I'm saying I think they are crap because they are:
err woop... praps I should have been paying more attention to the
previous posts...
> I don't mind people driving Commodores, good on them. It's great so many
> people love their cars, but to say they are the best car around (although it
> was hopefully tougue in check) is pathetic. And handling better than an EF,
> I seriously doubt it!!! Maybe if you drove the EF as much as the VK, or
> surpressed your Holden bias for a few minutes, you would realise it's a huge
> step ahead. The only drawback of the EF is it's physically bigger, but hey,
> every model gets bigger anyway!!!
Mate I have absolutely no holden bias whatsoever... I have the car I do
because my interest with cars started when I bought my first, the vk I
drive, and I knew *nothing* when I got it. I didn't buy it to impress
my mates (it's a wagon) or because I thought commodores were amazing
cars, I got it because my dad was giving me a loan for it, he liked it,
and he's quite liable to have decided not to loan the money because his
back ached or something ;)
I am not shitting you about the handling either... the ef is nicer to
drive of course, and the steering is better because its not old and
worn, but it tips into corners and understeers heaps more.
Jake the Dog
> But there are pleanty of cars of similiar size and weight to Commodores
that
> do handle well. And the original comment was how good Commodores are,
> specifically a VK Commodore. I'm not saying they are crap because they
> aren't a sportscar, I'm saying I think they are crap because they are:
>
> steering lacks feel/feedback
> bodyroll is excessive
> build quality is at best poor
> interior sucks (personally the VT (maybe VR) is the first nice interior of
a
> Commodore, but the tacho still sucks.)
>
> people love their cars, but to say they are the best car around (although
it
> was hopefully tougue in check) is pathetic. And handling better than an
EF,
> I seriously doubt it!!! Maybe if you drove the EF as much as the VK, or
> surpressed your Holden bias for a few minutes, you would realise it's a
huge
> step ahead. The only drawback of the EF is it's physically bigger, but
hey,
> every model gets bigger anyway!!!
at the time it was good but many advances have been made.
the vk is 15yrs old... why are ppl comparing it to todays cars?
ydou...@yahoo.com
little you know with every post.
DAN
In article <8n6ke0$on$1...@news.netlink.com.au>,
"Glenn Ryan" <les...@netlink.com.au> wrote:
> Sorry, but the 350s and 351s I've been in don't get revved past
ydou...@yahoo.com
"Glenn Ryan" <les...@netlink.com.au> wrote:
> is something you are forgetting. Handling. A VK does not handle that
> well,
> actually, the handling is bloody awful.
I agree, a stock standard VK off the factory floor would handle like
shit. Ever heard of "suspension mods"? They make your car ride & handle
better! My VK still needs a little suspension work, but handle pretty
well at the moment. "Sticks like chew to a thong"! :-)
> My uncle owns a VT, and he
> thinks
> the steering is still shit, and it is an S model. (supercharged)
Is the Supercharger relevant to the handling?
> Like I said, I like some V8s. I love many 6s. (Supras, Skylines,
> 300zx, M3,
> etc.) I love many 4 cyclinders. (I think everyone knows the good 4
> cyclinders, although 200sxs are a personal favourite). I like many
> rotaries,
> although some are horrible.
Do you own a car at all Glen? Do you drive? Are you old enough to
drive?
> awesome. You guys in Commondores (generalisation, but many will
> agree) are
> the ones that shovel the most shit, and yes, you guys on average are
> the
> worst drivers in Oz.
With your next post Glen, do you want to generalise a few more times.
As I said before, OPEN YOUR EYES! You might see past the balls that are
hanging over your eyes!
DAN
Jake the Dog
>> (flat boring torque curve) and to rev them past that I presume you need
to
>> do things like rods, pistons, cam, rockers, valve springs, etc. It's not
>> like a well built jap car that spinds to 7000rpm (if you want, 200sx &
WRX
>> to name a few) stock standard. Of course higher redlines are acheived
with
>> rods and pistons, cam, and a check on fuel delivery. GTRs in Japan do
clutch
>> dumps at 9000rpm and leave 4 wheel skid marks for 30m up the road.
(That's
>> on the way to a 9s pass, whereas a Chev would be doing the same black
lines
>> trying to get grip to haul it's overweight ass down to a 13s pass if it's
>> lucky.)
1) for road applications a flat torque curve is an IDEAL torque curve. how
little you know.
2) we have road reg v8s in australia that pull 9sec quarters too, so what?
if u believe *factory* gtr's pull 9sec quarters then you're more of an
ignoramus than i first thought.....
3) 9000rpm clutch dumps. yeah thats standard factory fare </sarcasm>. again,
so what? are you saying v8's can't rev this high?
4) a 13sec chev is what? what body weight, wheels/tyres, suspension are you
assuming?
5) what are you comparing here? the revability of stock 350/351s to factory
tuned turbo wrx/200sx's? get serious, it's not possible to make any
comparison here.
>> So stun me dickheads, how far would you rev a 'standard' 350 Chev
reguarly,
>> or more explicitlity, what is the recomended red line for a 350 Chev????
6) don't know. what era? lets say a mid 80's monte carlo; that'd be 4800rpm
then.
>>
>> Try comparing standard Chevs, not $3k rebuilds.
>> A brand new Chev 350 has the following figures:
>> 325HP @ 5200 and torque is 370 ft/lbs @ 3800 rpm
>>
>> That's from a brand new Corvette, a '98/99 model I think, I know cos my
>> uncle's hotrod is using this motor. It runs 10.4:1 compression (much
higher
>> than any commdore of you era ran), bigger valves, reverse flow coolant
>> (neccassary for high compression - read high power) and alloy heads. I
don't
>> see your '80s Chev motors pulling anywhere near that, and Commodores I've
>> been in where getting revved to around 4000rpm MAX.
7) fyi, a factory VB 308 made best power @ 4200rpm. a factory VH 308 made
best power @ 4400rpm. a factory VR 304 made best power @ 4400rpm. a factory
VT 304 made best power @ 4800rpm. a factory VT 350 makes best power @
5000rpm.
are you getting the picture? if the the commie you went in didn't get revved
past 4000rpm then you weren't even experiencing it at it's best. this
invalidates your subjective assesment.
>> BTW, are you guys the type who drive autos and think their REALLY
driving.
>> Yeh, thought so. Autos are so boring, they take half the driving
experience
>> away.
>>
8) since i am a member of a street machine car club, a sporting car club,
hold a level 2 cams license and the fact that i participate in club events
at phillip island make me think i do know how to really drive. (although i
do admit some people that race with us do not). i'll go out on a limb here
and presume that i'm in a better postion to ask whether you know how to
REALLY drive. do you?
9) assumptions, assumptions. i drive a 96 maxima gv and (in 3 weeks) a fully
street legal 400hp airesearch injected, 308 auscar engined SS torana - both
are manuals. btw, my sport engined v6 maxima revs to 6500rpm and my 308 to a
reliably safe 7200rpm.
10) i strongly believe you have no real automotive engineering knowledge at
all and doubt the validity of anything you say. you think that because an
engine revs better, it is better and you quote examples that aren't possibly
comparable.
11) in fairness to you and your intergrity, here's a question i hope you can
answer. (of course there's no way to know whether it really is YOUR anwer
but i'll give you the benefit of doubt)
question: if you had a subaru, nissan, whoever make a straight 4 and v8
2.0ltr no turbo engine using all the same technologies; which would perform
better overall? which would rev better? which would give more torque? if
your feeling brave, explain to us why as well.
it'll be interesting to see if you respond to this..............
Kieron Murphy
wrote:
>Hmm aside from the bump steer my vk (stock) takes corners heaps better
>than parents ef... both are rotten compared to anything mildly sporty
>though I'll agree. It's because they're not sportscars, they're family
>barges... saying that they're crap because they're not a sportscar is
>like saying your toasters crap because its not an oven.
A VK in no way will outhandle an EF..
Kieron
Kieron Murphy
wrote:
>I am not shitting you about the handling either... the ef is nicer to
>drive of course, and the steering is better because its not old and
>worn, but it tips into corners and understeers heaps more.
Think of it this way, the EF will at least outhandle VN/VP Commodores,
have Commodores got worse in there handling??? - NO.
Quite likely the reason why you think the VK is better is because it
doesn't have the power to get itself into trouble. Jump out of your VK
and into a VL and you will say the same thing!!
Kieron
Dan--
Anything is possible with cars now days..
Kieron Murphy
<les...@netlink.com.au> wrote:
>Yeah, typo, I know the sizes:
>Holden 186, 202, 3L Nissan, 253, 308, 350
>Ford 302, 351 <--- Don't know the pissy motors, although they might be
>250ci??
200/250 (3.3, 4.1), 3.2L, 3.9L, 4.0L you also missed 289 from the V8
Falcons ;-)
>Sorry, but the 350s and 351s I've been in don't get revved past 5000rpm,
>(flat boring torque curve) and to rev them past that I presume you need to
>do things like rods, pistons, cam, rockers, valve springs, etc. It's not
>like a well built jap car that spinds to 7000rpm (if you want, 200sx & WRX
>to name a few) stock standard. Of course higher redlines are acheived with
>rods and pistons, cam, and a check on fuel delivery. GTRs in Japan do clutch
>dumps at 9000rpm and leave 4 wheel skid marks for 30m up the road. (That's
>on the way to a 9s pass, whereas a Chev would be doing the same black lines
>trying to get grip to haul it's overweight ass down to a 13s pass if it's
>lucky.)
Gee Glenn, get your comparos right for god sake!! your comparing stock
351/350's with WRX/GTR engines!!! As for Jap engines spinning to
7,000, thats fine, but how many actually do?? I remember looking at
this once and found most have rev limits @ 6,500!! out of interest,
here's some rev limits of old Ford performance motors -
289 HiPo - 6000
Boss 302 - 6150
Boss 351 - 6150
Boss 429 - 6150
and last but not least the 427 SOHC developed its max power at 7,500
Sure, 6150 isn't high, but this is 30 years ago ;-)
Kieron
Daryl Walford
My VK was replaced by an EF.
The EF is better in every way by a huge margin and so it should be since
its 10 years younger than the VK.
Daryl
Charlie wrote:
>
> Glenn Ryan wrote:
>
> > But there are pleanty of cars of similiar size and weight to Commodores that
> > do handle well. And the original comment was how good Commodores are,
> > specifically a VK Commodore. I'm not saying they are crap because they
> > aren't a sportscar, I'm saying I think they are crap because they are:
>
> err woop... praps I should have been paying more attention to the
> previous posts...
>
> > I don't mind people driving Commodores, good on them. It's great so many
> > people love their cars, but to say they are the best car around (although it
> > was hopefully tougue in check) is pathetic. And handling better than an EF,
> > I seriously doubt it!!! Maybe if you drove the EF as much as the VK, or
> > surpressed your Holden bias for a few minutes, you would realise it's a huge
> > step ahead. The only drawback of the EF is it's physically bigger, but hey,
> > every model gets bigger anyway!!!
>
> Mate I have absolutely no holden bias whatsoever... I have the car I do
> because my interest with cars started when I bought my first, the vk I
> drive, and I knew *nothing* when I got it. I didn't buy it to impress
> my mates (it's a wagon) or because I thought commodores were amazing
> cars, I got it because my dad was giving me a loan for it, he liked it,
> and he's quite liable to have decided not to loan the money because his
> back ached or something ;)
>
Daryl Walford
Daryl
Charlie
> Think of it this way, the EF will at least outhandle VN/VP Commodores,
> have Commodores got worse in there handling??? - NO.
>
> Quite likely the reason why you think the VK is better is because it
> doesn't have the power to get itself into trouble. Jump out of your VK
> and into a VL and you will say the same thing!!
Hm I put it down to ford deciding people buying standard falcons wanted
a floatier ride... perhaps it is the particular ef I have been driving.
I am comfortable in both cars, they both have newish rubber, and the vk
goes round corners quite a bit faster, with less roll (though lots more
bump). The ef has been like that since 40'000k's, so I don't think its
worn suspension... hm
It's not the power of the car convincing me of that either ok, the ef is
remarkably easy to control past the limit...
I'm not trying to start a "vk's rock" thread (my glasses arent that
rosy) but I just thought it was interesting... maybe im going mental.
Glenn Ryan
> > My uncle owns a VT, and he
> > thinks
> > the steering is still shit, and it is an S model. (supercharged)
>
> Is the Supercharger relevant to the handling?
Sorry, I forgot your only just graduated from a single cell organism. The
supercharged motor is lighter than the V8, thus it should handle better.
(Less weight over the front wheels, softer springs rates available and/or
lower ride height) There is nothing I have seen to say the V8 handles
better, and personally the Supercharged 6 seems a much smarter option
(economy and cost) than the V8 except that it is not available in a manual.
> > Like I said, I like some V8s. I love many 6s. (Supras, Skylines,
> > 300zx, M3,
> > etc.) I love many 4 cyclinders. (I think everyone knows the good 4
> > cyclinders, although 200sxs are a personal favourite). I like many
> > rotaries,
> > although some are horrible.
>
> Do you own a car at all Glen? Do you drive? Are you old enough to
> drive?
Yes! Yes! Yes! (I also ride a motorcycle)
> > awesome. You guys in Commondores (generalisation, but many will
> > agree) are
> > the ones that shovel the most shit, and yes, you guys on average are
> > the
> > worst drivers in Oz.
>
> With your next post Glen, do you want to generalise a few more times.
> As I said before, OPEN YOUR EYES! You might see past the balls that are
> hanging over your eyes!
I have no problem generalizing, and as you seem to enjoy it so much, I might
increase my generalsations. OPEN MY EYES??? To what? I think I'm the one
that has them open more than you. I am saying, and have said before, a road
driven VK can not handle really well, certainly not like a new XR6 as you
say.
A VK is 15yrs old, it hasn't got the technology and devolpment of latter
model cars, and the fact that the steering COMPLETELY sucks doesn't help
either. Why don't you open your eyes to the fact that early commodores
really do suck if you have any performance criteria. The aren't that quick
(202s are bog slow, 8 is ok except when you realise just how little distance
you are from the last servo with the petrol warning light on already) and
they don't handle that well. The things they do well are carrying 4 people
(5 is uncomfortable), towing light loads, and ability to take a thrashing
for a long time.
Charlie
>
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 00:00:55 +1000, Charlie <blo...@powerup.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >Hmm aside from the bump steer my vk (stock) takes corners heaps better
> >than parents ef... both are rotten compared to anything mildly sporty
> >though I'll agree. It's because they're not sportscars, they're family
> >barges... saying that they're crap because they're not a sportscar is
> >like saying your toasters crap because its not an oven.
>
> A VK in no way will outhandle an EF..
my vk has recently had shocks / bushes etc replaced (not modified, just
replaced) and I can assure you it has higher corner speeds and less body
roll during those corners than my parents ef, which doesn't have many
km's on it. I've not modified anything on the car. I don't even know
why I'm arguing this... the vk steers shoddily and the rear jumps over
every inconsitency in the road, but it *does* corner at higher speeds...
maybe the folks ef is screwed...
Shouldnt have said anything... feel downright stupid arguing that the vk
corners faster than something ;)
Glenn Ryan
news:r8Jl5.137$Xg.1255@news-> 11) in fairness to you and your intergrity,
here's a question i hope you can
> answer. (of course there's no way to know whether it really is YOUR anwer
> but i'll give you the benefit of doubt)
>
> question: if you had a subaru, nissan, whoever make a straight 4 and v8
> 2.0ltr no turbo engine using all the same technologies; which would
perform
> better overall? which would rev better? which would give more torque? if
> your feeling brave, explain to us why as well.
>
> it'll be interesting to see if you respond to this..............
I would say the 4 cyclinder would be a much better motor, as I hope you
would agree. Getting of the line with no low down torque would make the V8
only suitable for a vehicle of very low mass, but in theory it should
produce MORE power. (Although I would suggest much higher in the rev range)
I would say the 4 cyclinder would have much better breathing ability with
respect to maximum valve sizes allowable by the bores. The inline 4 should
be much lighter than the V8.
Glenn Ryan
> 1) for road applications a flat torque curve is an IDEAL torque curve. how
> little you know.
Sorry, why is that?? I would've thought a flat torque curve is only
neccassary when you have to get excess lard to get off the line. As far as
peak power goes, you want to produce your peak torque at the highest
possible revs. This may explain to you why race cars are peakier than road
cars in general. (ie: F1 cars rev past 16,000rpm, all motorcycles produce
peak torque very high) But it is a tradeoff between power and driveability I
agree. But does a Lotus Clubman replica (they weigh 600-700kgs and are road
reged) or a Swift GTi need a flat torque curve? No!!! They are very
comfortable having peak torque higher in the rev range as the car is easier
to get of the line. So there is no such thing as an IDEAL torque curve, and
that shows how little you know.
> 2) we have road reg v8s in australia that pull 9sec quarters too, so what?
> if u believe *factory* gtr's pull 9sec quarters then you're more of an
> ignoramus than i first thought.....
I'm saying it's much harder to get a 1800kg 350 Chev powered RWD to do 9 or
10s 1/4s than it is to get a 900kg R100 to 9s or 10s. It seems most budget
constrained V8s sit around the 13s 1/4 mile mark, whereas VL turbos are only
a couple of mods away from those figures, and there are alot of VL Turbos
doing 10s that are great on the road. (VL Turbos that haven't been pulled
apart and worked on, they simply bolt on some bits, raise the boost,
intercool them and exhaust/intake them) And rotaries (R100s and the like)
are also relatively inexpensive to do very quick times too, most just
running a stock import motor, or at the most, some minor porting and new
ceramic seals)
>
> 3) 9000rpm clutch dumps. yeah thats standard factory fare </sarcasm>.
again,
> so what? are you saying v8's can't rev this high?
Road V8s don't do they? (Talking Falcadore style, not Europes offerings)
They don't rev that high cos, again, they weigh too much for a peaky motor
to be used day to day on the road. And don't even try telling me you have a
V8 tuned for high revs with low down punch running carbs that still gives
good driveability on the road. Or are we modifying them to fuel injection
too!!!! VK was the first Commo V8 to have injection as far as I know.
>
> 4) a 13sec chev is what? what body weight, wheels/tyres, suspension are
you
> assuming?
At least a rebuilt motor from the crank up. Full driveline mods including
g/box, big ass tyres, lowered suspension with stiff rear springs/dampners,
etc. We're talking alot of money here, enough to buy a Jap import Silvia
turbo (standard) running 14s 1/4 miles on 9psi with a restrictive exhaust.
>
> 5) what are you comparing here? the revability of stock 350/351s to
factory
> tuned turbo wrx/200sx's? get serious, it's not possible to make any
> comparison here.
Well why not to a RB30ET, 7MGTE, 1JZGTE, RB20DET, FJ20DET, etc. These motors
where in cars of the same years as pre VN Commodores. They all rev much
higher and smoother than Chevs, and all have better fuel economy figures in
their respective cars.
And why not compare to the SR20DET running in a 200sx, heaps of cars run
these as transplants, as they fit most Datsuns/Nissans. The produce over
200BHP standard, and there are street 200sx's running 400hp, and in Japan
they often replace the VG30DETT motor in the 300ZX with a SR20DET, so
obvuiously someones making power from 2L and still powering 1600kg cars.
>
>
> >> So stun me dickheads, how far would you rev a 'standard' 350 Chev
> reguarly,
> >> or more explicitlity, what is the recomended red line for a 350
Chev????
>
> 6) don't know. what era? lets say a mid 80's monte carlo; that'd be
4800rpm
> then.
Not that high is it!!
>
> >>
> >> Try comparing standard Chevs, not $3k rebuilds.
> >> A brand new Chev 350 has the following figures:
> >> 325HP @ 5200 and torque is 370 ft/lbs @ 3800 rpm
> >>
> >> That's from a brand new Corvette, a '98/99 model I think, I know cos my
> >> uncle's hotrod is using this motor. It runs 10.4:1 compression (much
> higher
> >> than any commdore of you era ran), bigger valves, reverse flow coolant
> >> (neccassary for high compression - read high power) and alloy heads. I
> don't
> >> see your '80s Chev motors pulling anywhere near that, and Commodores
I've
> >> been in where getting revved to around 4000rpm MAX.
>
>
> 7) fyi, a factory VB 308 made best power @ 4200rpm. a factory VH 308 made
> best power @ 4400rpm. a factory VR 304 made best power @ 4400rpm. a
factory
> VT 304 made best power @ 4800rpm. a factory VT 350 makes best power @
> 5000rpm.
The VT, we are talking a completely new motor, which hasn't appeared in Oz
until the VT SII, apples for apples??
Why didn't you quote the power figures for a VB-H V8?? Is it that the are
all low 100kw figures, something that standard Pulsars, Imprezzas (not
WRXs), MX5s, etc get these days from 1.8L and 2L with no hairdryers or wild
cams? A 253 would produce approx. the same power as a Pulsar SSS from 1990,
thats really sad you are still so in love with them. (ie: they have to push
an extra 50% weight with similiar power)
>
> are you getting the picture? if the the commie you went in didn't get
revved
> past 4000rpm then you weren't even experiencing it at it's best. this
> invalidates your subjective assesment.
>
>
> >> BTW, are you guys the type who drive autos and think their REALLY
> driving.
> >> Yeh, thought so. Autos are so boring, they take half the driving
> experience
> >> away.
> >>
>
>
> 8) since i am a member of a street machine car club, a sporting car club,
> hold a level 2 cams license and the fact that i participate in club events
> at phillip island make me think i do know how to really drive. (although i
> do admit some people that race with us do not). i'll go out on a limb here
> and presume that i'm in a better postion to ask whether you know how to
> REALLY drive. do you?
Sorry, do you drive a manual, or the slushbox???
No! I have yet to grace the racetrack, in my car. But I have ridden 4 times
on my RGV250 around Phillip Island, with lap times compareable to the third
row of the proddie guys, so yes, I ahve an idea of what you are talking
about. No I don't have a CAMS license.
>
> 9) assumptions, assumptions. i drive a 96 maxima gv and (in 3 weeks) a
fully
> street legal 400hp airesearch injected, 308 auscar engined SS torana -
both
> are manuals. btw, my sport engined v6 maxima revs to 6500rpm and my 308 to
a
> reliably safe 7200rpm.
Blah, Blah, Blah. Why doesn't the 400hp 308 SS torana (how much do those
badges cost now at Autobarn??) still sport the original induction, carby??
Is it because it was unstreetable?? Do you know you could take say a Mk II
Supra, pop in a MkIII Supra motor (bolts in), tighten the head, feed more
boost and get well over 300hp. Once you bolt a new turbo, bigger exhaust,
etc (still not opening up the motor) 400hp is easy, so gives us a break from
you 'race car.'
>
> 10) i strongly believe you have no real automotive engineering knowledge
at
> all and doubt the validity of anything you say. you think that because an
> engine revs better, it is better and you quote examples that aren't
possibly
> comparable.
And you seem to compare worked 308s and 350s with standard cars, and for
good reason, standard they are horrible and do nothing except embarass your
argument. When they are worked like yours are, what sort of fuel figures do
you acheive? Not that good are they?
> 11) in fairness to you and your intergrity, here's a question i hope you
can
> answer. (of course there's no way to know whether it really is YOUR anwer
> but i'll give you the benefit of doubt)
>
> question: if you had a subaru, nissan, whoever make a straight 4 and v8
> 2.0ltr no turbo engine using all the same technologies; which would
perform
> better overall? which would rev better? which would give more torque? if
> your feeling brave, explain to us why as well.
>
>
> it'll be interesting to see if you respond to this..............
Already answered it in the other post earlier.
Kieron Murphy
<gen3NO...@autospeed.com.invalid> wrote:
>>A VK in no way will outhandle an EF..
>
>Is that before and after mods or before mods?
>:-)
standard vs standard ;-)
>Hmm let me remember..
>a few months ago I worked on a stock VK a few months ago.
>New suspension kit, sports shocks, and stiffer springs,
>different anti-roll bar. And lowered. Plus wider rims (inc mags)
>It handled a lot better than my brothers XR6 EF Falcon (just as
>not as fast or as quick)..
I guess that depends on the mods and how much tuning thought has gone
into the kit. Sounds like this one was very well done! also iirc, EF
XR6's handled better than Commodore S's so you have managed to do a
better job than GMH as well as Ford ;-)
>But without the suspension mods and tweaks the VK didnt handle
>all that great..
For the time the VK was a good handler.
Kieron
Kieron Murphy
wrote:
>> A VK in no way will outhandle an EF..
>
>my vk has recently had shocks / bushes etc replaced (not modified, just
>replaced) and I can assure you it has higher corner speeds and less body
>roll during those corners than my parents ef, which doesn't have many
>km's on it. I've not modified anything on the car. I don't even know
>why I'm arguing this... the vk steers shoddily and the rear jumps over
>every inconsitency in the road, but it *does* corner at higher speeds...
>maybe the folks ef is screwed...
Like I mentioned in another part of this thread, both Holden and Ford
have gone backwards handling wise if your correct!!!!
>Shouldnt have said anything... feel downright stupid arguing that the vk
>corners faster than something ;)
hehe!!
BTW - I used to work for a mining co, and regularily drove 1 VK/ 2
different VL's, VN's, XF's and EA's and the later model cars where
better handlers, except in the wet where the VK was possibly better du
to not having enough power to get itself into trouble ;-)
Kieron
Charlie
>
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:00:10 +1000, Charlie <blo...@powerup.com.au>
> wrote:
>
> >> A VK in no way will outhandle an EF..
> >
> >my vk has recently had shocks / bushes etc replaced (not modified, just
> >replaced) and I can assure you it has higher corner speeds and less body
> >roll during those corners than my parents ef, which doesn't have many
> >km's on it. I've not modified anything on the car. I don't even know
> >why I'm arguing this... the vk steers shoddily and the rear jumps over
> >every inconsitency in the road, but it *does* corner at higher speeds...
> >maybe the folks ef is screwed...
>
> Like I mentioned in another part of this thread, both Holden and Ford
> have gone backwards handling wise if your correct!!!!
maybe I should tell my folks to get their ef checked...
GMH
>
>
>>>A VK in no way will outhandle an EF..
>>
>>:-)
>
>standard vs standard ;-)
Ahhh :)
>
>>Hmm let me remember..
>>a few months ago I worked on a stock VK a few months ago.
>>New suspension kit, sports shocks, and stiffer springs,
>>different anti-roll bar. And lowered. Plus wider rims (inc
mags)
>>It handled a lot better than my brothers XR6 EF Falcon (just as
>>not as fast or as quick)..
>
>I guess that depends on the mods and how much tuning thought
has gone
>into the kit. Sounds like this one was very well done! also
iirc, EF
>XR6's handled better than Commodore S's so you have managed to
do a
>better job than GMH as well as Ford ;-)
:), It took me a while to get it just right, but the owner is
very happy with the work I have done. But im pretty happy with
the setup. (Maybe I should move to the UK and work with
Lotus) :). I don't knock the XR6 at all its an impressive car to
drive.
>>But without the suspension mods and tweaks the VK didnt handle
>>all that great..
>
>For the time the VK was a good handler.
Hehe yeah at the time but before I had my hands on it, the
suspension was well worn out.. :)
Bazz..
Michael S.
> From: John O'Neill <jon...@netspace.net.au>
> Organization: A customer of Netspace Internet.
> Newsgroups: aus.cars
> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2000 23:56:26 +1000
> Subject: YET ANOTHER EXAMPLE!!! Where's THE COPS ON THIS NG!!!
>
> Nope,
>
> I see where you are comming from, but here is ANOTHER EXAMPLE!!
>
> Tonight I was working late on unit testing some software (by the
> way, I'm coding the baking side of the NRMA float).
>
> So, here I am again, cruising in the left lane on FTG road with
> a few other cars dotted around, this time I'm heading between
> Springvale road and the Wheelers hill pub..
>
> Anyway, there's some 'P' plater driving along in the right hand lane
> at about 80k's (hold your horses) in a little hatchback (old laser).
> This car is about 50meters ahead of me. Anyway, A (Guess what car it
> was??) White VT Commodore S vehicle comes thundering up from behind in
> the left lane..
>
> I just sit there at 80k's After being tailgated for a while and given
> a bit of the high beam, he decides to play with someone else, you
> guessed it the 'P' plater, now .. I tend to give these guys and girls
> the benefit of the doubt, they're new to the whole driving thing and
> sometimes they do silly things like sit in the right lane..
>
> Anyway, the commodore driver highbeams the poor kid and sits less than
> 1ft away from the car, horn blazing away, after a few seconds of this
> sort of assault the kid pulls over to the left, not being satisfied
> with his victory the commodore pulls over to the left too and continues
> the high beams and horn for about 1 km...
>
> What can you do? Nothing...If i was to start agroing the guy who knows
> what he'd do..I got his plate though..
What good is it getting the guys plates?
>
> Anyway, who believes this shit about Commodores being 'performance
> cars' anyway?
>
> -JohnO
Noddy
Glenn Ryan <les...@netlink.com.au> wrote in message
news:8n6ke0$on$1...@news.netlink.com.au...
>
> Sorry, but the 350s and 351s I've been in don't get revved past 5000rpm,
> (flat boring torque curve) and to rev them past that I presume you need to
> do things like rods, pistons, cam, rockers, valve springs, etc. It's not
> like a well built jap car that spinds to 7000rpm (if you want, 200sx & WRX
> to name a few) stock standard. Of course higher redlines are acheived with
> rods and pistons, cam, and a check on fuel delivery. GTRs in Japan do
clutch
> dumps at 9000rpm and leave 4 wheel skid marks for 30m up the road. (That's
> on the way to a 9s pass, whereas a Chev would be doing the same black
lines
> trying to get grip to haul it's overweight ass down to a 13s pass if it's
> lucky.)
Yeah, Right :)
Just for your information Glenn, the small block Chev series of engines, in
particular the 302 & 327 CID small journal Chevs, are some of the most
reliable high reving engines in the world. In the 1960's, the 302 equipped
Comaro's had a factory redline of 7500rpm right off the show-room floor and
they would do it happily all day long. They were nothing special, just a
push-rod cast-iron V8 engine with a single four barrel. They were just
*very* well designed to begin with.
> So stun me dickheads, how far would you rev a 'standard' 350 Chev
reguarly,
> or more explicitlity, what is the recomended red line for a 350 Chev????
See above
> Try comparing standard Chevs, not $3k rebuilds.
Okay, try this on for size. A few years ago, I owned a TG Gemini Coupe with
a 350 in it. It was purely a track only car. It had a great pair of heads, a
very good inlet manifold and a 750 Holley, and it ran a flat tappet cam, but
the short motor assembly was straight out of a container from the states. In
other words, just a high milage "dunger". Cast iron crank, cast pistons, as
standard and as "used" as they come. I was on a very tight budget and
couldn't afford to do much with it.
Still, it did 3 whole seasons before I got a new engine and it went to 8000
rpm *every* time it got started. It did eventually push a rod through the
side of the block, but considering the work it had done I was amazed. I was
even more amazed that when it did drop the rod, I was able to cover the hole
in the block with tape and run on seven cylinders in the final round to
collect runner up money :)
> BTW, are you guys the type who drive autos and think their REALLY driving.
> Yeh, thought so. Autos are so boring, they take half the driving
experience
> away.
That's a matter of personal preference and has little to do with the engine
in question. If you like Hi-tech Japanese stuff, fine. I do too. I can
appreciate something like a WRX, which is a wonderful little car to drive,
but for mine there's nothing like the feeling a nice V8 can give you.
Maybe you're not into it, but if you've never heard a Pro-Stock small block
Chev pulling near 13000 rpm just as it leaves the starting line, then you
simply haven't lived :)
Regards,
Noddy.
jake the dog
> > 2.0ltr no turbo engine using all the same technologies; which would
> perform
> > better overall? which would rev better? which would give more torque? if
> > your feeling brave, explain to us why as well.
>
> would agree.
>> Getting of the line with no low down torque would make the V8
>> only suitable for a vehicle of very low mass, but in theory it should
>> produce MORE power. (Although I would suggest much higher in the rev
range)
wrong. v8 would produce more power. power is a product of torque and rpm.
the v8 would produce more torque for many reasons. here's one: the v8 has
twice the power cycles per revolution. the 4cyl would have a lighter
rotating mass allowing to rev harder but the practical differences are not
be big eneough to overcome the difference. why do you think f1 and indy cars
race v-type engines?
>> I would say the 4 cyclinder would have much better breathing ability with
>> respect to maximum valve sizes allowable by the bores.
actually it's the other way around because with a v8 you have more
*effective* chamber area to play with and this allow you more area for
valves to populate.
>> The inline 4 should be much lighter than the V8.
yes the 4 would likely be lighter but not much as you say.
i'm not going to get into a full technical discussion. you need to teach
yourself more about what were talking about. i'm not here to educate you..
to all others: it may sound like i'm attacking 4cyls. i'm not, i like them
too. i'm just defending the validity of v8's and trying to open the eyes of
those that blindly bag them.
Noddy
Marty Hogan <mho...@dingoblue.net.au> wrote in message
news:3996a68f$0$760$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
> > So that S pack and supercharger should improve the steering 'eh?
>
> The S is meant to mean SPORT right ? so, it should improve it, dont think
it
> does tho ...
The "S" means "Commodore Sedan, not painted in taxi yellow and fitted with a
tacho and stripes"
according to the GMH order sheet :)
Regards,
Noddy.
Noddy
>
> But there are pleanty of cars of similiar size and weight to Commodores
that
> do handle well. And the original comment was how good Commodores are,
> specifically a VK Commodore. I'm not saying they are crap because they
> aren't a sportscar, I'm saying I think they are crap because they are:
Really?
Can you name a few 5 seat family sedans that are of a similar size & weight
to a Commodore that handle well in your opinion? I'd be delighted to hear
them :)
> underpowered
Compared to...
> steering lacks feel/feedback
Opinion
> bodyroll is excessive
For a 5 seat sedan that's supposed to afford it's occupants a relative
degree of comfort, I don't think it's excessive.
> build quality is at best poor
Build quality of a Lada is poor. Holden has never been great, but I wouldn't
go that far...
> interior sucks (personally the VT (maybe VR) is the first nice interior of
a
> Commodore, but the tacho still sucks.)
Personal choice. I think the interior of a 200SX sucks. What does that
prove?
Regards,
Noddy.
The Red Krawler
weight
> to a Commodore that handle well in your opinion? I'd be delighted to hear
> them :)
Kinga.
HJ Premier, 1974. phwroar.
The Red Krawler
it's been wiped)
But to say old cars cant handle like new ones is a crock of shit. Look at
the mini... 30 years (at least) on and they'll still outhandle most things
on the road.
They stick to the road like shit to a blanket. And with a centre of gravity
that low, why wouldnt they?
Holdenman
Yea man, everything's fine now thats cleared up. Suppose im just used
to getting bagged out for bein a P plater.
Catch ya later
Wazza
In article <04875940...@usw-ex0104-087.remarq.com>,
GMH <gen3NO...@autospeed.com.invalid> wrote:
> Dan-- <webm...@marmon.org.ss5.7> wrote:
> >Hey Bazz
> >
> >GMH wrote:
> >>
> >> Hey Wazza
> >>
> >> Nah that catch a friggen bus comment was to John that started
> >> the bag the commodore thread. not to you..
> >>
> >> Bazz..'
> >
> >Shit mate havent been in this NG for long and your already in
> the shit
> >LOL.. :-)
>
> He yeah, Didn't take me long didnt it. :)
> Anyway I have emailed Wazza stating on what happend anyway. So I
> think everything will be ok from then..
>
> Bazz..
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
>
>
--
Keep Cruisin'
Wazza
jake the dog
>> Jake the Dog <jake...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:r8Jl5.137$Xg....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>neccassary when you have to get excess lard to get off the line.
again you *think* but don't really know because you are wrong. torque is
necessary throughout the WHOLE rev range, at all times. the flatter it is,
the smoother the acceleration and power delivery, the less stress on engine
components, the better use if it you can make the power, the list goes on..
>> As far as
>> peak power goes, you want to produce your peak torque at the highest
>> possible revs. This may explain to you why race cars are peakier than
road
>> cars in general. (ie: F1 cars rev past 16,000rpm, all motorcycles produce
>> peak torque very high) But it is a tradeoff between power and
driveability I
>> agree. But does a Lotus Clubman replica (they weigh 600-700kgs and are
road
>> reged) or a Swift GTi need a flat torque curve? No!!! They are very
>> comfortable having peak torque higher in the rev range as the car is
easier
>> to get of the line. So there is no such thing as an IDEAL torque curve,
and
>> that shows how little you know.
you're getting yourself confused. yes f1 engines produce peak torque at high
revs. a pro-stock chev does over 12K rpm so what? race car engines produce
torque and hp at specific rpms because they are designed to run only within
a certain rev range.
as far as road engines go, a road car needs to make use of all available
revs hence a flat torque curve is the ideal torque curve for a road going
car.
>> 3) 9000rpm clutch dumps. yeah thats standard factory fare </sarcasm>.
> again,
>> > so what? are you saying v8's can't rev this high?
>
>> Road V8s don't do they? (Talking Falcadore style, not Europes offerings)
>> They don't rev that high cos, again, they weigh too much for a peaky
motor
>> to be used day to day on the road.
hehehe "peaky motor"; your only just making sense....the problem with any
road engine that is "too peaky" is NOT that it doesn't produce enough torque
too low, its because they produce to much torque/power all of a sudden. this
is probably hard for you to understand.
>> And don't even try telling me you have a
>> V8 tuned for high revs with low down punch running carbs that still gives
>> good driveability on the road. Or are we modifying them to fuel injection
>> too!!!! VK was the first Commo V8 to have injection as far as I know.
ok, i won't try telling you. i can see you think you cannot be wrong on this
one. how about you find out for yourself and have a go at an auscar at a
training day. then come back to me and say without lying that even though
they are carbed, rev to 7000 its just not possible that they have low down
driveability. btw, the vl was the first commie to have injection
(walkinshaw) the vn was the first mass produced holden injected v8.
>> 4) a 13sec chev is what? what body weight, wheels/tyres, suspension are
>> you
>> assuming?
>
>> At least a rebuilt motor from the crank up. Full driveline mods including
>> g/box, big ass tyres, lowered suspension with stiff rear
springs/dampners,
>> etc. We're talking alot of money here, enough to buy a Jap import Silvia
>> turbo (standard) running 14s 1/4 miles on 9psi with a restrictive
exhaust.
you obviously don't know it's easy to buy a street v8 for $8-9K that does
14's. what your describing above is typically a faster than 13sec car.
>> 5) what are you comparing here? the revability of stock 350/351s to
>> factory
>> > tuned turbo wrx/200sx's? get serious, it's not possible to make any
>> > comparison here.
>> >
>> Well why not to a RB30ET, 7MGTE, 1JZGTE, RB20DET, FJ20DET, etc. These
motors
>> where in cars of the same years as pre VN Commodores. They all rev much
>> higher and smoother than Chevs, and all have better fuel economy figures
in
>> their respective cars.
>
>> And why not compare to the SR20DET running in a 200sx, heaps of cars run
>> these as transplants, as they fit most Datsuns/Nissans. The produce over
>> 200BHP standard, and there are street 200sx's running 400hp, and in Japan
>> they often replace the VG30DETT motor in the 300ZX with a SR20DET, so
> obvuiously someones making power from 2L and still powering 1600kg cars.
it's not possible to compare them because they are COMPLETELY different
motors with different technologies. thought that was obvious.........
>> 7) fyi, a factory VB 308 made best power @ 4200rpm. a factory VH 308 made
>> best power @ 4400rpm. a factory VR 304 made best power @ 4400rpm. a
>>factory
>> VT 304 made best power @ 4800rpm. a factory VT 350 makes best power @
>> 5000rpm.
>
>> The VT, we are talking a completely new motor, which hasn't appeared in
Oz
>> until the VT SII, apples for apples??
have a look above. i quoted both the old and new v8 for the VT
>> Why didn't you quote the power figures for a VB-H V8?? Is it that the are
>> all low 100kw figures, something that standard Pulsars, Imprezzas (not
>> WRXs), MX5s, etc get these days from 1.8L and 2L with no hairdryers or
wild
>> cams? A 253 would produce approx. the same power as a Pulsar SSS from
1990,
>> thats really sad you are still so in love with them. (ie: they have to
push
>> an extra 50% weight with similiar power)
i didn't quite power figures for any of the v8's because the issue was peak
power at what revs and not the actual power produced. the fact that you want
to turn this power quoting match is juvenile. again your comparing two
different engines using vastly different technologies made 6 years apart.
>> Sorry, do you drive a manual, or the slushbox???
it doesn't matter but here, read again from my post again, becuse you
obviously didn't read it the first time:
"9) assumptions, assumptions. i drive a 96 maxima gv and (in 3 weeks) a
fully street legal 400hp airesearch injected, 308 auscar engined SS torana -
both are manuals."
>> No! I have yet to grace the racetrack, in my car. But I have ridden 4
times
>> on my RGV250 around Phillip Island, with lap times compareable to the
third
>> row of the proddie guys, so yes, I ahve an idea of what you are talking
>> about. No I don't have a CAMS license.
well then we both claim to be good drivers. aren't we lucky.
>> Blah, Blah, Blah. Why doesn't the 400hp 308 SS torana (how much do those
>> badges cost now at Autobarn??) still sport the original induction,
carby??
>> Is it because it was unstreetable?? Do you know you could take say a Mk
II
>> Supra, pop in a MkIII Supra motor (bolts in), tighten the head, feed more
>> boost and get well over 300hp. Once you bolt a new turbo, bigger exhaust,
>> etc (still not opening up the motor) 400hp is easy, so gives us a break
from
> you 'race car.'
so what if you can get a supra and get 300hp. so what if it can get 400hp? i
highlighted my car because it is the opposite of what you say is not good
about v8.
>> And you seem to compare worked 308s and 350s with standard cars, and for
>> good reason, standard they are horrible and do nothing except embarass
your
>> argument. When they are worked like yours are, what sort of fuel figures
do
>> you acheive? Not that good are they?
nowhere did i compare worked 308s and 350s with standard cars. ..and fuel
figures - here comes another juvenile argument. "i've got this, what have
you got". of course i'll use more fuel than your silvia, my engine has over
2.5 times the volume. duh.
by now you would have noticed that several people have presented you with
opposing arguments (and noticeably, none for you). hopefully you'll realise
that you are incorrect in your assumptions. i doubt you'll start to come
around though, you seem have that typical inferiority complex that many (not
all) 4cyl fans have. the annoying this about you is that you think you know
it all but you don't and its obvious to some of us at least. in my
experience i have found that most people who like v8's appreciate 6's and 4'
s as much as you do. personally i'd love to have a 200sx with high boost etc
but i put my money into something else that i'd just rather have. if
something breaks it won't cost another fortune to fix it either.
Christopher Smith
"John O'Neill" <jon...@netspace.net.au> wrote in message
news:MPG.13fd5f968...@news.netspace.net.au...
> Nope,
>
> I see where you are comming from, but here is ANOTHER EXAMPLE!!
>
> Tonight I was working late on unit testing some software (by the
> way, I'm coding the baking side of the NRMA float).
>
> So, here I am again, cruising in the left lane on FTG road with
> a few other cars dotted around, this time I'm heading between
> Springvale road and the Wheelers hill pub..
>
> Anyway, there's some 'P' plater driving along in the right hand lane
> at about 80k's (hold your horses) in a little hatchback (old laser).
> This car is about 50meters ahead of me. Anyway, A (Guess what car it
> was??) White VT Commodore S vehicle comes thundering up from behind in
> the left lane..
>
> I just sit there at 80k's After being tailgated for a while and given
> a bit of the high beam, he decides to play with someone else, you
> guessed it the 'P' plater, now .. I tend to give these guys and girls
> the benefit of the doubt, they're new to the whole driving thing and
> sometimes they do silly things like sit in the right lane..
>
> Anyway, the commodore driver highbeams the poor kid and sits less than
> 1ft away from the car, horn blazing away, after a few seconds of this
> sort of assault the kid pulls over to the left, not being satisfied
> with his victory the commodore pulls over to the left too and continues
> the high beams and horn for about 1 km...
>
> What can you do? Nothing...If i was to start agroing the guy who knows
> what he'd do..I got his plate though..
>
> cars' anyway?
Keep a packet full of ball bearings or lead sinkers in the car. Next time
it happens, get in front of the stupid twat and throw a handful out the
window.
jake the dog
news:8n8stp$aum$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
>> Keep a packet full of ball bearings or lead sinkers in the car. Next
time
>> it happens, get in front of the stupid twat and throw a handful out the
>> window.
yeah, thats a sensible thing to do </sarcasm>
ydou...@yahoo.com
"Glenn Ryan" <les...@netlink.com.au> wrote:
> The
> supercharged motor is lighter than the V8, thus it should handle
> better.
> (Less weight over the front wheels, softer springs rates available
> and/or
> lower ride height) There is nothing I have seen to say the V8 handles
> better, and personally the Supercharged 6 seems a much smarter option
> (economy and cost) than the V8 except that it is not available in a
> manual.
This may or may not be true. Obviously the weight of the engine will
affect the handling, but who's to say a "lighter" front end is going to
improve handling? It might make it worse. I can't comment as I haven't
driven either yet.
> (I also ride a motorcycle)
OT: what bike do you have? I ride aswell.
> I have no problem generalizing, and as you seem to enjoy it so much,
> I might
> increase my generalsations. OPEN MY EYES??? To what? I think I'm the
> one
> that has them open more than you. I am saying, and have said before,
> a road
> driven VK can not handle really well, certainly not like a new XR6 as
> you
> say.
I never disputed this fact. I was merely pointing out that an early
model Commo is not a SHIT as you say. My "brick with luxury" as you
call it handles quite well. Here is an example for you: A mate of mine
owns a diffs and gearboxes workshop in Blacktown (Powerplay Diff &
Gearboxes if anyone is after some good quility work). He got to drive
my car for a few days while he was fitting the 5 speed gearbox. He made
comment that my VK handles BETTER than his current model V8 ute!
Go figure huh!
DAN
Dan--
Noddy wrote:
>
> Glenn Ryan <les...@netlink.com.au> wrote in message
> news:8n6ke0$on$1...@news.netlink.com.au...
> >
> > Sorry, but the 350s and 351s I've been in don't get revved past 5000rpm,
> > (flat boring torque curve) and to rev them past that I presume you need to
> > do things like rods, pistons, cam, rockers, valve springs, etc. It's not
> > like a well built jap car that spinds to 7000rpm (if you want, 200sx & WRX
> > to name a few) stock standard. Of course higher redlines are acheived with
> > rods and pistons, cam, and a check on fuel delivery. GTRs in Japan do
> clutch
> > dumps at 9000rpm and leave 4 wheel skid marks for 30m up the road. (That's
> > on the way to a 9s pass, whereas a Chev would be doing the same black
> lines
> > trying to get grip to haul it's overweight ass down to a 13s pass if it's
> > lucky.)
>
> Yeah, Right :)
>
> Just for your information Glenn, the small block Chev series of engines, in
> particular the 302 & 327 CID small journal Chevs, are some of the most
> reliable high reving engines in the world. In the 1960's, the 302 equipped
> Comaro's had a factory redline of 7500rpm right off the show-room floor and
> they would do it happily all day long. They were nothing special, just a
> push-rod cast-iron V8 engine with a single four barrel. They were just
> *very* well designed to begin with.
Heck yeah.. one of my mates has an HK Monaro in mint condition with the
327, it takes a hell of a beating through the years and always starts
first go everyday..
Just like a funny car or Drag racer. gotta love the smell and the sound
at the drags.. :-)
BTW does anyone know when the supernats start at Calder park?
Noddy
The Red Krawler <t...@in4free.com.au> wrote in message
news:esRl5.31$6x2....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
I stand corrected :)
Regards,
Noddy.
Kieron Murphy
wrote:
>Kieron Murphy wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 17:00:10 +1000, Charlie <blo...@powerup.com.au>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >> A VK in no way will outhandle an EF..
>> >
>> >my vk has recently had shocks / bushes etc replaced (not modified, just
>> >replaced) and I can assure you it has higher corner speeds and less body
>> >roll during those corners than my parents ef, which doesn't have many
>> >km's on it. I've not modified anything on the car. I don't even know
>> >why I'm arguing this... the vk steers shoddily and the rear jumps over
>> >every inconsitency in the road, but it *does* corner at higher speeds...
>> >maybe the folks ef is screwed...
>>
>> Like I mentioned in another part of this thread, both Holden and Ford
>> have gone backwards handling wise if your correct!!!!
>
>maybe I should tell my folks to get their ef checked...
Maybe you should, OR maybe you should check your..... nah you must be
right, Ford/Holden engineers arn't THAT good ;-)
Kieron
Kieron Murphy
<les...@netlink.com.au> wrote:
>Jake the Dog <jake...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:r8Jl5.137$Xg.1255@news-> 11) in fairness to you and your intergrity,
>here's a question i hope you can
>> answer. (of course there's no way to know whether it really is YOUR anwer
>> but i'll give you the benefit of doubt)
>>
>> question: if you had a subaru, nissan, whoever make a straight 4 and v8
>> 2.0ltr no turbo engine using all the same technologies; which would
>perform
>> better overall? which would rev better? which would give more torque? if
>> your feeling brave, explain to us why as well.
>>
>> it'll be interesting to see if you respond to this..............
>
>I would say the 4 cyclinder would be a much better motor, as I hope you
>would agree. Getting of the line with no low down torque would make the V8
>only suitable for a vehicle of very low mass, but in theory it should
>produce MORE power. (Although I would suggest much higher in the rev range)
>I would say the 4 cyclinder would have much better breathing ability with
>respect to maximum valve sizes allowable by the bores. The inline 4 should
>be much lighter than the V8.
Why would an inline 4 have better breathing ability than a V8??
A 4 cylinder should be a slightly more efficient motor that a V8
simply because it has less reciprocating mass but i'd hardly say its a
much better motor.
Kieron
Arnie
Glenn Ryan wrote in message <8n6ke0$on$1...@news.netlink.com.au>...
[snip]
>Sorry, but the 350s and 351s I've been in don't get revved past 5000rpm,
Just because you've only been in shitbuckets doesn't mean all V8's are the
same.
>(flat boring torque curve) and to rev them past that I presume you need to
>do things like rods, pistons, cam, rockers, valve springs, etc. It's not
>like a well built jap car that spinds to 7000rpm (if you want, 200sx & WRX
>to name a few) stock standard. Of course higher redlines are acheived with
>rods and pistons, cam, and a check on fuel delivery. GTRs in Japan do
clutch
>dumps at 9000rpm and leave 4 wheel skid marks for 30m up the road. (That's
>on the way to a 9s pass, whereas a Chev would be doing the same black lines
>trying to get grip to haul it's overweight ass down to a 13s pass if it's
>lucky.)
>
>So stun me dickheads, how far would you rev a 'standard' 350 Chev reguarly,
>or more explicitlity, what is the recomended red line for a 350 Chev????
>
>Try comparing standard Chevs, not $3k rebuilds.
So we have to compare standard chevs to "GTRs in Japan" that do 9000rpm
(does $3k get you 9000rpm on a GTR?). Get your hand of it Glenn, go down to
Calder Park for once and witness the sheer numbers of Chev/Ford V8's doing
10's and 11's. Oh, there is an F100 truck pulling consistent 11's just to
stir the pot.
>A brand new Chev 350 has the following figures:
>325HP @ 5200 and torque is 370 ft/lbs @ 3800 rpm
>
>That's from a brand new Corvette, a '98/99 model I think, I know cos my
>uncle's hotrod is using this motor. It runs 10.4:1 compression (much higher
>than any commdore of you era ran), bigger valves, reverse flow coolant
>(neccassary for high compression - read high power) and alloy heads. I
don't
>see your '80s Chev motors pulling anywhere near that, and Commodores I've
>been in where getting revved to around 4000rpm MAX.
A brand new Vette runs a Gen3 LS1, you uncle's motor is probably a Gen2 chev
going by the reverse flow comment (why/how the fark would you reverse the
coolant on a Gen3?).
>BTW, are you guys the type who drive autos and think their REALLY driving.
>Yeh, thought so. Autos are so boring, they take half the driving experience
>away.
Get off your sinking high horse Glenn.
Arnie
Arnie
>I would say the 4 cyclinder would be a much better motor, as I hope you
>would agree. Getting of the line with no low down torque would make the V8
>only suitable for a vehicle of very low mass, but in theory it should
>produce MORE power. (Although I would suggest much higher in the rev
range)
>I would say the 4 cyclinder would have much better breathing ability with
>respect to maximum valve sizes allowable by the bores.
BZZZT! WRONG!
Optimum valve curtain area to cylinder volume ratio would favour the engine
with more cylinders (assuming same total displacement) thus greater
potential for power. The V8 will have twice the valves and the valves will
be more than half as big thus total vavel area is greater.
Arnie
Arnie
>
>wrong. v8 would produce more power. power is a product of torque and rpm.
>the v8 would produce more torque for many reasons. here's one: the v8 has
>twice the power cycles per revolution. the 4cyl would have a lighter
>rotating mass allowing to rev harder but the practical differences are not
>be big eneough to overcome the difference. why do you think f1 and indy
cars
>race v-type engines?
Actually, with the same total displacement, the V8 would rev harder:
(1) more valve area, more flow
(2) shorter stroke, lower piston velocity thus higher redline possible.
Arnie
Arnie
[snip]
>Sorry, why is that?? I would've thought a flat torque curve is only
>neccassary when you have to get excess lard to get off the line. As far as
>peak power goes, you want to produce your peak torque at the highest
>possible revs. This may explain to you why race cars are peakier than road
>cars in general. (ie: F1 cars rev past 16,000rpm, all motorcycles produce
>peak torque very high) But it is a tradeoff between power and driveability
I
>agree. But does a Lotus Clubman replica (they weigh 600-700kgs and are road
>reged) or a Swift GTi need a flat torque curve? No!!! They are very
>comfortable having peak torque higher in the rev range as the car is easier
>to get of the line. So there is no such thing as an IDEAL torque curve, and
>that shows how little you know.
BULLSHIT!
>> 2) we have road reg v8s in australia that pull 9sec quarters too, so
what?
>> if u believe *factory* gtr's pull 9sec quarters then you're more of an
>> ignoramus than i first thought.....
>
>I'm saying it's much harder to get a 1800kg 350 Chev powered RWD to do 9 or
>10s 1/4s than it is to get a 900kg R100 to 9s or 10s. It seems most budget
>constrained V8s sit around the 13s 1/4 mile mark,
BULLSHIT!
[snip]
>Road V8s don't do they? (Talking Falcadore style, not Europes offerings)
>They don't rev that high cos, again, they weigh too much for a peaky motor
>to be used day to day on the road. And don't even try telling me you have a
>V8 tuned for high revs with low down punch running carbs that still gives
>good driveability on the road. Or are we modifying them to fuel injection
>too!!!! VK was the first Commo V8 to have injection as far as I know.
BULLSHIT!
>> 4) a 13sec chev is what? what body weight, wheels/tyres, suspension are
>you
>> assuming?
>
>At least a rebuilt motor from the crank up.
As opposed to a rebuild below the crank eh? :)
[snipped - more bullshit]
Arnie
Daryl Walford
Good tyres make a huge difference.
Daryl
Jake the Dog
>
> (1) more valve area, more flow
> (2) shorter stroke, lower piston velocity thus higher redline possible.
>
> Arnie
i agree your points are valid however the v8 would have a higher rotating
mass and this negates some of the advantages of your point #2. also,
rotating mass balance would be harder to achieve so it may not be practical
to balance the v8 to the extent of the 4cyl. anyway we could suppose all
sorts of things here...
suffice to say, we both agree v8's would are more effective at producing
power than same swept volume 4 cyl engines using the same engine
technnology.
Charlie
> Maybe you should, OR maybe you should check your..... nah you must be
> right, Ford/Holden engineers arn't THAT good ;-)
What, check that my body roller and bump steerer are functioning
correctly? :)
Glenn Ryan
wrong. v8 would produce more power. power is a product of torque and rpm.
> the v8 would produce more torque for many reasons. here's one: the v8 has
> twice the power cycles per revolution. the 4cyl would have a lighter
> rotating mass allowing to rev harder but the practical differences are not
> be big eneough to overcome the difference. why do you think f1 and indy
cars
> race v-type engines?
I said the V8 would be more powerful, learnt to read yet??
Twice the power cycles yes, but less torque from each cyclinder because of a
lower capacity (of each cyclinder)
F1 cars have Vee engines for obvious reason, a straight 8, 10 or 12
cyclinder motor is pretty long!! Duh!!
> actually it's the other way around because with a v8 you have more
> *effective* chamber area to play with and this allow you more area for
> valves to populate.
In such a small chamber, wouldn't it be harder to use a round valve of much
area, as such there would be less breathing capacity. In the bigger chamber
you should be able to fit bigger valves.
>
>
> i'm not going to get into a full technical discussion. you need to teach
> yourself more about what were talking about. i'm not here to educate you..
>
> to all others: it may sound like i'm attacking 4cyls. i'm not, i like them
> too. i'm just defending the validity of v8's and trying to open the eyes
of
> those that blindly bag them.
I don't bag them, and my original posts show hatred for early Commos, the
ones that are mainly auto 202s anyway. I said I like V8s, even the VT SII,
but no earlier V8s in standard form have ever stimulated me as much as they
obviously stimulate you.
nitro496 nospam
>Actually, with the same total displacement, the V8 would rev harder:
>
>(1) more valve area, more flow
>(2) shorter stroke, lower piston velocity thus higher redline possible.
>
>Arnie
>
Ummm , Do they make 500 cubic inch Nitro Hemi 4 cylinders now ????
LOL
STU