EA Falcon problems
Greg Drury
I bought an EA Falcon just before christmas and am having some hassles with
it. I replaced the head gasket and flushed the cooling system soon after
purchase, but that did not cure all the problems. The engine still runs a
little too warm for my liking and after a short drive (10 - 15 km) the
performance drops off. When I use the airconditioner the power drops off
remarkably and the engine temperature soars. I have noticed the smell of
petrol after a drive, and when the engine is quite hot I get pre-ignition
after I have switched it off to the point that it sounds like I have still
have the ignition on ! On a really hot day the coolant will boil on a longer
trip (40 - 50 km). The base engine timing has been set correctly and the ECU
diagnosis described in the manual indicates no faults. This is my first fuel
injected vehicle so I don't know how the system really works. Any help would
be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Greg.
Clockmeister
Greg Drury wrote in message <3a96...@kastagir.senet.com.au>...
>G'Day
>
>I bought an EA Falcon just before christmas and am having some hassles with
>it. I replaced the head gasket and flushed the cooling system soon after
>purchase, but that did not cure all the problems. The engine still runs a
>little too warm for my liking and after a short drive (10 - 15 km) the
>performance drops off.
Did you replace the thermostat?
If not, ALWAYS replace the thermostat after you've done a head gasket!
Regards,
Clockmeister.
David Rubie
Greg,
Check that the engine fan is working (don't know about EA's, it's
probably
one of those viscous coupled jobs). If it's an electric one, put your
head
under the bonnet when the car is hot and see that it starts up OK. You
can check that the viscous coupled fan is working by trying to turn it
by
hand. They are supposed to turn fast when the engine is relatively
slow,
then slow down when the engine speeds up (so they're theoretically
fastest
at idle). If it feels really loose when you turn it slowly, it's
probably
buggered and you will need a new one.
The car will get hotter when the A/C is turned on because the condensor
(the bit that bleeds the hot air out of the A/C system) is probably
mounted
right in front of the radiator. If you're radiator is not working,
you're
compounding the problems by turning the A/C on.
Did you bleed the cooling system after you did the head gasket job?
There
should be a bolt or something at the highest point of the system to let
air
out while you fill it up.
Sometimes the radiators in cars with head gasket problems will goo up -
you
might want to get it flushed or go to Natrad and buy a new one (pretty
cheap
I would imagine and no more worries). An EA radiator, if original
(doubtful) is
probably well past it by this stage. Why did the head gasket need
replacing in
the first place?
I'm buggered if I know what the pre-ignition is coming from unless the
car
is really running waaaay too hot. Did you give the pistons and head a
good
cleanup while the car was apart?
Just a few suggestions.
dave.
--
-------------------------------------------------------
David Rubie "Your brother's dead.
Macquarie Bank Ltd. Keep dancing!"
dru...@macquarie.com.au (Sean Connery to Kim Basinger,
"Never Say Never Again").
Kasper Kowalski
"David Rubie" <david...@macquarie.com.au> wrote in message
news:3A96FAD6...@macquarie.com.au...
> Sometimes the radiators in cars with head gasket problems will goo up -
> you
> might want to get it flushed or go to Natrad and buy a new one (pretty
> cheap
> I would imagine and no more worries). An EA radiator, if original
> (doubtful) is
> probably well past it by this stage. Why did the head gasket need
> replacing in
> the first place?
hehe.. you must be the only person in aus that hasn't heard about the ea's
head gasket/oil leak problems... :P
KK
Grant Summers
But as for your overheating, did you replace the thermostat? Has it got a
thermostat in it, and if it has, is it operating properly.
Dave makes a good suggestion regarding the viscous fan coupling too.
Also did you replace the head bolts when you did the gasket. Ford and most
repairers will recommend that you do replace them. It it worth lifting the
rocker cover and checking the head bolts. Don't try to tension them, just
make certain that they are all in tact by putting some pressure on them with
a socket and drive. We are not wanting the head bolts to turn in this
exercise.
But that does bring me to another question, did you re torque the head after
running the engine for 1000 k's or so?
As for the pre-ignition, I have never heard of an injected vehicle running
on as the computer should cut all spark when the ignition is turned off, no
spark no combustion!
There is much mush more that could be causing these problems and maybe even
a combination of things but you have to start somewhere.
"David Rubie" <david...@macquarie.com.au> wrote in message
news:3A96FAD6...@macquarie.com.au...
Brad
definantly replace the thermostat
& 1 more thing to check........has the car ever been driven in a paddock or
long grass etc. these cars have a problem with stuff getting caught between
the condensor & radiator blocking all airflow
"Clockmeister" <gerr...@tnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:v0Dl6.1$o5....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
westoz
mrcomp...@ozbytes.net.au
Overheating in EA EB is commonly caused by casting sand left in the block which
eventually clogs the radiatior. Fords deny it and blame it on the fact that the
coolant hasn't been changed regularly.
My local rad shop demonstrated it to me 6 years ago, he had a constant supply
of Falcon radiators to clean out - from the Ford dealership. Each one of them
he poked out the tubes with wire and ended up with half a cup of white sand
like polyfilla.
If you suspect the above take the radiator to be disassembled and the tubes
poked out. You will probably also need to repeat this exercise a couple more
times over the next couple of years.
Ultimately you may be advised to get a new rad core, get a triple tube one like
all the taxi drivers do, with brass tanks to replace the plastic.
Head bolts are recommended to be replaced with a revised bolt and retorqued
after 1000km
Regarding preignition, in another response to this someone said 'no spark, no
combustion'. That is not correct - the combustion comes from red hot carbon or
plug terminal causing ignition to continue. Very lean mix can cause it too.
It is commonly said that the EA EB Ford heads cannot handle overheating.
Get it fixed and make every effort to upgrade to an efficient cooling system.
--------------
MrCompletely
Clockmeister
westoz wrote in message <3a99...@quokka.wn.com.au>...
>Why replace the thermostat if its working correctly?
>
Because head gaskets can blow due to overheating (head warpage), which can
be caused by a thermostat that isn't opening. In any case, overheating
damages the thermostat even if it wasn't the cause of the overheating in the
first place.
And it's a cheap insurance policy, particularly in light of the problems
EA's have with dodgy thermostats.
Regards,
Clockmeister.
Al
>Regarding preignition, in another response to this someone said 'no spark, no
>combustion'. That is not correct - the combustion comes from red hot carbon or
>plug terminal causing ignition to continue. Very lean mix can cause it too.
Should I reply?? Yeah. It's true, run on or dieseling occurs with no
spark. Detonation and preignition are different matters.
Al
George W. Frost
stop the cooling fluid till the motor gets hot, then open, so you only
really need a thermostat in cold weather to get the motor to the correct
temperature quicker.
"Clockmeister" <gerr...@tnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:y36m6.12$pq....@nsw.nnrp.telstra.net...
Kieron Murphy
<gr...@NOSPAMcarrepairs.com.au> wrote:
>Also did you replace the head bolts when you did the gasket. Ford and most
>repairers will recommend that you do replace them. It it worth lifting the
>rocker cover and checking the head bolts. Don't try to tension them, just
>make certain that they are all in tact by putting some pressure on them with
>a socket and drive. We are not wanting the head bolts to turn in this
>exercise.
If the head gasket has been replaced a few times then the bolts are
likely to have stretched and won't hold torque, they used torque to
yield bolts which require replacing after 2 or 3 torques.
>But that does bring me to another question, did you re torque the head after
>running the engine for 1000 k's or so?
Most head gasket are mono torque though and shouldn't require this,
but its worth checking out.
>As for the pre-ignition, I have never heard of an injected vehicle running
>on as the computer should cut all spark when the ignition is turned off, no
>spark no combustion!
The heat can cause combustion, spark isn't required, what the ECU does
cutoff though is fuel flow, no fuel nothing to pre ignite ;-)
Kieron
Kieron Murphy
>
>Overheating in EA EB is commonly caused by casting sand left in the block which
>eventually clogs the radiatior. Fords deny it and blame it on the fact that the
>coolant hasn't been changed regularly.
>
>My local rad shop demonstrated it to me 6 years ago, he had a constant supply
>of Falcon radiators to clean out - from the Ford dealership. Each one of them
>he poked out the tubes with wire and ended up with half a cup of white sand
>like polyfilla.
>
>If you suspect the above take the radiator to be disassembled and the tubes
>poked out. You will probably also need to repeat this exercise a couple more
>times over the next couple of years.
Shouldn't need to have the tubes cleaned after the first, just look
after the cooling system as per schedule.
>Ultimately you may be advised to get a new rad core, get a triple tube one like
>all the taxi drivers do, with brass tanks to replace the plastic.
No need to go triple tube or brass tanks, in fact if the core is in
good condition then there isn't even a need to replace it, if the
tank(s) look a little suspect, Natrad make stronger plastic ones.
>
>Head bolts are recommended to be replaced with a revised bolt and retorqued
>after 1000km
>
>Regarding preignition, in another response to this someone said 'no spark, no
>combustion'. That is not correct - the combustion comes from red hot carbon or
>plug terminal causing ignition to continue. Very lean mix can cause it too.
>
>It is commonly said that the EA EB Ford heads cannot handle overheating.
Really its the head bolts that where at fault, they come loose causing
the head to warp.
>Get it fixed and make every effort to upgrade to an efficient cooling system.
The cooling system in the EA is efficient enough for the average
owner, just has to be looked after correctly.
Kieron
Kieron Murphy
<fro...@iceworks.net.au> wrote:
>Throw the thermostat away and try running without one for a while, they only
>stop the cooling fluid till the motor gets hot, then open, so you only
>really need a thermostat in cold weather to get the motor to the correct
>temperature quicker.
Nope, the thermostat is also a flow restrictor causing the water to
travel slower thru the engine/radiator allowing it to soak the heat
more thoroughly and to dissipate heat in the radiator, one trick is to
punch the guts out of it and just use it as a flow restrictor, but for
$13 why mess with it!
Kieron
Kieron Murphy
The cooling system is certainly operating on the edge, the viscous fan
has already been mentioned, the radiator will almost certainly need to
be rodded (also mentioned in another post), and the thermostat should
be raplaced, check the operation of the water pump too - remove the
drive belts and try rotating the pump pulley for starters, if it feels
rough, replace it, any half decent radiator place will quickly
diagnose it for you.
As for the petrol smell, I had this problem and couldn't work it out,
finally I replaced the fuel filter and have never had it since, not
sure about the pre-ignition, the ECO cuts fuel flow to the engine so
it shouldn't happen.
Kieron
David Rubie
I do see it mentioned now and again, but talk to anybody who runs a 8+
year
old car and you'll hear "head gasket problems" as one of the biggest
side liners. The previous owners of all these cars (from the cheapest
to
the most expensive) never bother checking the coolant level etc. Once
the
first gasket goes, the rest of them seem like they are dependent on the
competence of the first mechanic :-)
Actually, it doesn't even need the smiley - warp a cylinder head for
example
and you'll be stuffed until *somebody* has it machined flat again.
I have to admit I haven't had my head under the bonnet of the "E" series
Falcons very much (my uncle has one though). His EA "S" pack 3.9i
popped it's
first head gasket last year after 200,000km or so. The local (small
country town)
dealer basically blames it on the quality of the "stretch" bolts that
Ford
use but he didn't cite any evidence. This particular car isn't babied,
but my
uncle is a farmer and knows his way around motors, so I don't think it
was
a maintenance issue.
Kieron Murphy
<david...@macquarie.com.au> wrote:
>I have to admit I haven't had my head under the bonnet of the "E" series
>Falcons very much (my uncle has one though). His EA "S" pack 3.9i
>popped it's
>first head gasket last year after 200,000km or so. The local (small
>country town)
>dealer basically blames it on the quality of the "stretch" bolts that
>Ford
>use but he didn't cite any evidence.
They are called torque to yield bolts, you torque them as per normal,
then generally give the bolts another 1/4 of a turn, the bolts stretch
after a few torques (3 iirc) and you can't re-torque them correctly
after this.
Kieron
David Mitchell
Evening all,
does the petrol smell arrive on warm to hot days, and is ok on cool ones? If so
look at the charcoal canister.
David
Noddy
"George W. Frost" <fro...@iceworks.net.au> wrote in message
news:3a999e2a$0$25475$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
> Throw the thermostat away and try running without one for a while, they
only
> stop the cooling fluid till the motor gets hot, then open, so you only
> really need a thermostat in cold weather to get the motor to the correct
> temperature quicker.
The thermostat does more than just provide a quicker warm-up. If your
cooling system is functioning at optimum, the thermostat will open and close
at varying times during engine operation to help maintain a constant
temperature.
Also, running any engine without one is as destructive as overheating it.
Engine wear is accelerated when the operating temperature is below normal,
and the amount of wear increase is proportional to the lack of heat.
Regards,
Noddy.
Clockmeister
George W. Frost wrote in message
<3a999e2a$0$25475$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au>...
>Throw the thermostat away and try running without one for a while, they
only
>stop the cooling fluid till the motor gets hot, then open, so you only
>really need a thermostat in cold weather to get the motor to the correct
>temperature quicker.
>
No, no no... that's completely wrong. The thermostat is important in all
operating conditions!
Regards,
Clockmeister.
David Rubie
I think BMW require you to throw them away after *each* use. I much
prefer the Alfa system - you have to get under there and torque the head
nuts up every now and again, but at least it's something you can do
actively rather than passively wait for the things to stretch out
too far and fail.
Kieron Murphy
<david...@macquarie.com.au> wrote:
>I think BMW require you to throw them away after *each* use. I much
>prefer the Alfa system - you have to get under there and torque the head
>nuts up every now and again, but at least it's something you can do
>actively rather than passively wait for the things to stretch out
>too far and fail.
The Windsor V8 has been using these type of bolts since the 80's
without problems, i'd say most modern engines use them now, its not
really a case of passively waiting for them to fail, the stretching
occurs when you torque them, this provides extra clamping.
btw - I found out the hard way about used TTQ Windsor V8 bolts ;-)
Kieron
Kieron Murphy
<da...@chariot.net.au> wrote:
>>
>
>Evening all,
>
>does the petrol smell arrive on warm to hot days, and is ok on cool ones? If so
>look at the charcoal canister.
>
>
thats certainly a source too, sniff around the front left wheel well
when the smell is around, the canister is in there.
Kieron
Martin Taylor
KM> Nope, the thermostat is also a flow restrictor causing the water to
KM> travel slower thru the engine/radiator allowing it to soak the heat
KM> more thoroughly and to dissipate heat in the radiator, one trick is to
KM> punch the guts out of it and just use it as a flow restrictor, but for
KM> $13 why mess with it!
Interesting twist on thermodynamics theory. I might have to revisit my
textbooks on that one..
Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply
Kieron Murphy
I don't worry about the therory, just what happens in practice, no
thermostat at all and the temp is generally higher than normal.
run into a 60 degree C room then thru into a aircond room, you won't
have soaked up much heat in the hot room and you won't shed much in
the A/C room, walk thru both and you'll get hotter/cool ;-)
Dennis may be able to explain where I fall down?
Kieron
Dennis Jensen
"Kieron Murphy" <kie...@reiwa.com.au> wrote in message
news:3a9b6cb3....@wa.news.telstra.net...
Kieron, I think the problem with high flow rates is both one of cavitation
and stall stagnation. These factors result in areas in the radiator where
you do not get good contact between the fluid and the radiator fins, and you
also get local hotspots in the engine where the flow has stagnated (isn't
moving at all) and the coolant boils away. What you require is laminar flow;
high flow rates will give you turbulent flow.
Dennis
> Kieron
Oz1
wrote:
I believe the flow restriction is more to 'force' water to travel thru
the back of the block.
Otherwise it would only be racing around the front with little
circulation back there.
Oz
Kieron Murphy
<jen...@amdaat.com.au> wrote:
>> I don't worry about the therory, just what happens in practice, no
>> thermostat at all and the temp is generally higher than normal.
>>
>> run into a 60 degree C room then thru into a aircond room, you won't
>> have soaked up much heat in the hot room and you won't shed much in
>> the A/C room, walk thru both and you'll get hotter/cool ;-)
>>
>> Dennis may be able to explain where I fall down?
>>
>
>Kieron, I think the problem with high flow rates is both one of cavitation
>and stall stagnation. These factors result in areas in the radiator where
>you do not get good contact between the fluid and the radiator fins, and you
>also get local hotspots in the engine where the flow has stagnated (isn't
>moving at all) and the coolant boils away. What you require is laminar flow;
>high flow rates will give you turbulent flow.
Thanks Dennis, the way I explained it was what I was told years ago
and at face value seemed to make sense and in practise keeping the
thermostat body in placed worked so I assumed (wrongly now ;-)) that
this theory was correct.
Kieron
Martin Taylor
>Interesting twist on thermodynamics theory. I might have to revisit my
>textbooks on that one..
KM> I don't worry about the therory, just what happens in practice, no
KM> thermostat at all and the temp is generally higher than normal.
Well, I work as a technician in the power industry, and deal with this
on a daily basis. What you're saying isn't correct.
The amount of heat transfered between source and radiator via the
cooling medium is dependant on a number of things. The quantity of
water, the flow, the initial temperature of the water, and how much heat
is dissipated from the radiator.
If you remove the thermostat, you allow a greater flow of water through
the engine. This will allow the heat to be dissipated at a faster rate,
thus making the engine run cooler. Conversely, if you restrict coolant
flow, then the engine will run hotter, as the heat isn't being carried
away quick enough. The water "saturates" out (as opposed to water being
at "saturation" temperature or boiling point).
Oz1
<mta...@gipps.com.au> wrote:
Martin, we're talking car engines here.
No thermo or restrictor means that water flows around the front of the
block and does not flow as well at the back.
You end up with localised overheating and other sections that don't
get up to operating temp.
Premature wear, blown headgaskets and cracked heads can result as a
gulp of cold water suddenly finds its way into one of those overheated
spots.
Oz
atec77
Oz1 wrote:
> On Tue, 28 Feb 2001 15:43:16 +1000, "Martin Taylor"
> <mta...@gipps.com.au> wrote:
> Martin, we're talking car engines here.
> No thermo or restrictor means that water flows around the front of the
> block and does not flow as well at the back.
> You end up with localised overheating and other sections that don't
> get up to operating temp.
> Premature wear, blown headgaskets and cracked heads can result as a
> gulp of cold water suddenly finds its way into one of those overheated
> spots.
> Oz
Your wrong and I know your going to have a hard time proving your point
G>
>
>
> >Kieron Murphy said..
> >
> > >Interesting twist on thermodynamics theory. I might have to revisit my
> > >textbooks on that one..
> >
> > KM> I don't worry about the therory, just what happens in practice, no
> > KM> thermostat at all and the temp is generally higher than normal.
> >
> >Well, I work as a technician in the power industry, and deal with this
> >on a daily basis. What you're saying isn't correct.
> >
> >The amount of heat transfered between source and radiator via the
> >cooling medium is dependant on a number of things. The quantity of
> >water, the flow, the initial temperature of the water, and how much heat
> >is dissipated from the radiator.
> >
> >If you remove the thermostat, you allow a greater flow of water through
> >the engine. This will allow the heat to be dissipated at a faster rate,
> >thus making the engine run cooler. Conversely, if you restrict coolant
> >flow, then the engine will run hotter, as the heat isn't being carried
> >away quick enough. The water "saturates" out (as opposed to water being
> >at "saturation" temperature or boiling point).
> >
> >
> >
> >Take a "p" out of gipps for an email reply
--
Me , myself and I
Oz1
>
>
>Oz1 wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 28 Feb 2001 15:43:16 +1000, "Martin Taylor"
>> <mta...@gipps.com.au> wrote:
>> Martin, we're talking car engines here.
>> No thermo or restrictor means that water flows around the front of the
>> block and does not flow as well at the back.
>> You end up with localised overheating and other sections that don't
>> get up to operating temp.
>> Premature wear, blown headgaskets and cracked heads can result as a
>> gulp of cold water suddenly finds its way into one of those overheated
>> spots.
>> Oz
>
> Your wrong and I know your going to have a hard time proving your point
> G>
>
Ok,
I won't go into race engines that suffered failures until a restrictor
was installed where the thermostat was removed.
Not my problem anymore.
Cheers,
Oz
atec77
these blocks the thermo does that ang nothing else
G
Oz1 wrote:
--
Oz1
>this isnt a race motor and Im infrmed by someone who proports to know that in
>these blocks the thermo does that ang nothing else
> G
Yep ;)
Oz
Kieron Murphy
<mta...@gipps.com.au> wrote:
>Kieron Murphy said..
>
> >Interesting twist on thermodynamics theory. I might have to revisit my
> >textbooks on that one..
>
> KM> I don't worry about the therory, just what happens in practice, no
> KM> thermostat at all and the temp is generally higher than normal.
>
>Well, I work as a technician in the power industry, and deal with this
>on a daily basis. What you're saying isn't correct.
Well, my temp gauge on a car I had was lying for a few days then ;-)
>The amount of heat transfered between source and radiator via the
>cooling medium is dependant on a number of things. The quantity of
>water, the flow, the initial temperature of the water, and how much heat
>is dissipated from the radiator.
>
>If you remove the thermostat, you allow a greater flow of water through
>the engine. This will allow the heat to be dissipated at a faster rate,
>thus making the engine run cooler. Conversely, if you restrict coolant
>flow, then the engine will run hotter, as the heat isn't being carried
>away quick enough. The water "saturates" out (as opposed to water being
>at "saturation" temperature or boiling point).
So why does a thermostat have quite a small 'hole' then, its clearly a
restrictor of some sort (Dennis did explain it).
If water stayed in the radiator for a longer period due to restricted
flow, would it not be cooler when it re-entered the engine?
Or my analogy, if I ran into a cool room and straight out, im not
going to get as cold as if I walked thru the room?
PS - I'm not trying to argue Martin, just wanting to better understand
;-)
Kieron
Greg Drury
suggestions to my EA problems.
The viscous coupling on the fan seems okay. I will replace the radiator next
payday and while I'm at it I'll test the thermostat at the same time. I wish
I had known about the head bolts before I replaced the gasket - I'll know
next time ! The petrol smell is still a mystery but I'm working on it.
Regards
Greg.
Al
<david...@macquarie.com.au> wrote:
>but my
>uncle is a farmer and knows his way around motors
wire mechanic?
Al
Al
wrote:
>Or my analogy, if I ran into a cool room and straight out, im not
>going to get as cold as if I walked thru the room?
Ah, but you'd also have to run/walk through the hot room :-)
Al
Kieron Murphy
wrote:
>On Wed, 28 Feb 2001 09:12:36 GMT, kie...@reiwa.com.au (Kieron Murphy)
>wrote:
>
>>Or my analogy, if I ran into a cool room and straight out, im not
>>going to get as cold as if I walked thru the room?
>
>Ah, but you'd also have to run/walk through the hot room :-)
yep, but as I walked thru the cold room, im colder, therefore I assume
will take longer to reach my boiling point in the hot room ;-)
If I run thru th cold room and only drop my temp by 2 degrees, then
run thru the hot room I may not soak up as much heat from the hot room
;-)
Kieron
Martin Taylor
Oz> Martin, we're talking car engines here.
Duh..
Oz> No thermo or restrictor means that water flows around the front of the
Oz> block and does not flow as well at the back.
That would happen if the block and head cooling flow arrangement is
poorly designed. Coolant should enter the engine via the waterpump. It
then pressurises the block, forcing water up into the head via the
cooling ports/galleries, and then back to the radiator. I can see what
you're saying about a lack of head on the pump causing a flow problem.
But as a pressurised system, this SHOULDN'T occur.
Martin Taylor
KM> So why does a thermostat have quite a small 'hole' then, its clearly a
KM> restrictor of some sort (Dennis did explain it).
It's a bypass to allow a minimum flow.
KM> If water stayed in the radiator for a longer period due to restricted
KM> flow, would it not be cooler when it re-entered the engine?
Yes, but the water in the engine will be overheated, as it can't move
to carry away the heat generated by the engine.
KM> Or my analogy, if I ran into a cool room and straight out, im not
KM> going to get as cold as if I walked thru the room?
I don't think that this analogy is appropriate. For starters, water
conducts heat about 30 times more than air. That's why air cooled
motorcycle engines don't have the life expectancy of watercooled ones,
and why the aircooled ones require oil that is more tolerant of high
temps.
With water flowing through a block, it will absorb shitloads of heat. If
you had a block of say, 3 times the capacity, then the water in there
would be cooler, as not all of it is absorbing the heat.
KM> PS - I'm not trying to argue Martin, just wanting to better understand
Yes, I know. Unfortunately, there are others who'd probably be flaming
by this stage, if your opinion differed to theirs.
Anyway, if anyone wants the physics of it explained, I can do one of two
things. I can have one of the engineers at work explain it, or I can try
and find my lecture notes on this stuff and explain it better.
Oz1
<mta...@gipps.com.au> wrote:
> Oz> No thermo or restrictor means that water flows around the front of the
> Oz> block and does not flow as well at the back.
>
>That would happen if the block and head cooling flow arrangement is
>poorly designed. Coolant should enter the engine via the waterpump. It
>then pressurises the block, forcing water up into the head via the
>cooling ports/galleries, and then back to the radiator. I can see what
>you're saying about a lack of head on the pump causing a flow problem.
>But as a pressurised system, this SHOULDN'T occur.
>
>
And most car engines are badly designed afa cooling is concerned.
They have a water pump at one end circulating the bulk of the water
thru that one end.
Water flow is much slower at the other end.
Many manufacturers now design in a waterrail that feeds from the pump
to the back of the block as well. Much better.
Oh and BTW the water pump doesn't pressurise the block, it provides
circulation only.
The pressure is created by the expanding water
Oz
Al
<mta...@gipps.com.au> wrote:
>I don't think that this analogy is appropriate. For starters, water
>conducts heat about 30 times more than air. That's why air cooled
>motorcycle engines don't have the life expectancy of watercooled ones,
>and why the aircooled ones require oil that is more tolerant of high
>temps.
How cruel Martin. My air cooled pantah engine will never wear out :-)
Hope you were refering to japanese. Baring explosions I doubt whether
my nickasil bores will wear out in my lifetime. Agree about the oil.
Lost top gear from using a brand different to my usual brand. It was
recommended to me at a bike shop when I couldn't buy Castrol Grand
Prix. I only use Castrol and bike shops "experts" can get &$#%ed. The
Missus Kawasaki is water cooled and was rooted at 60,000km. All
depends on the quality of materials and the servicing and of course
good oil. Sorry about not mentioning EA Falcon problems.
Cheers Al
Al
<mta...@gipps.com.au> wrote:
>I doubt that the oil would have been the root cause to destroy the gear.
>Gears, as they go, aren't that demanding when it comes to lubrication.
As you know Martin, oils have an additive package which include or
should include most of the following:
a viscosity index improver
pour point depressants
oxidation inhibitors
corrosion and rust inhibitors
foam inhibitors
detergent dispersants
extreme pressure additives
>It's the engine that is what you need the you beaut oil for. That one
>something in it that doesn't make the clutch slip.
That would be friction modifiers making the clutch slip if I'm not
mistaken
Let's just say that the oil I bought (had recomended to me) was not
too flash in the additive package. Certainly not too flash in the foam
inhibitors and extreme pressure additives.
I didn't just go to the shops after changing the oil and filter. I
went 1350 km the next day.
I guess you've already worked on air cooled Ducati Pantah engines so
the following is just for people who haven't. The motor oil is shared
by the gearbox. The top end of the motor has separate heads, V twin,
they have a small belt driven camshaft which has opening and closing
rockers, no heavy valve springs. There is not much pressure on these
components, for instance an oil that was not so good would not be too
much of a problem in the top end of a desmodromic valve system but an
oil with inadequate foam inhibitors for 1350 km on a hot summers day
would and did harm the top gear set. Top, 5 th gear was all I used for
most of the trip with sometimes 200 km between towns and fills.
Cut.. I don't want to begin writing a book but this was some time ago
at 30,000 km and the bike has just gone over 80,000 km with not a
speck of hard facing on it's magnetic sump plug using my preferred
oil. I rarely use the bike for shorter runs and when commuting to work
I used to use another bike.
Foaming oil is of course not able to provide normal lubrication of all
parts that rub or run together under pressure. The engine has an oil
level sight glass and after letting the bike settle for some time the
oil foam was still visible. My regular oil would settle almost
immediately. No brand names mentioned.
Of course most but not all separate manual gearboxes use an oil in the
range of 80-90. An oil such as this protects the gears by way of it's
higher viscosity as well.
This is just about turning into a bike newsgroup, Martin :-)
With regard to air cooled engines wearing out before liquid cooled, in
part you are right but it just doesn't always need to be the case as
there are a lot of factors to consider, being the capacity of the
engine and the number of cylinders, engine design, quality of
components, operator, the engines purpose etc. Let's take a small
liquid cooled two stroke used for racing against a bread and butter
air cooled CB750 Honda. If you mean engines of similar size and
construction then there are performance benefits also to be had by the
liquid cooled design because the liquid cooling keeps the head
temperature within a more predictable range therefore the engine can
be built to high performance specs, such as the liquid cooled '87 GPX
750R whereas when an air cooled engine is built to the same specs the
head temperature gets far hotter leading to detonation which sends the
head even hotter with destructive results. The GPX 750R has liquid
cooling for performance reasons as 11.2 : 1 compression ratio applied
to an air cooled engine would lead to a very temporary motorcycle.
When an aircooled engine is designed with long life in mind the engine
need not wear out before the liquid cooled design. The typical air
cooled engine can reach 554 degrees F (290 C) head temperature in the
spark plug area, wheras liquid cooled head temperature in the spark
plug area runs at about 200 C. The piston crown temperatures are
similar between the two. The reason is the liquid cooled design has
far higher power output. If the liquid cooled engine loses it's
coolant then they wear out very rapidly.
You mentioned your motorcycle as an example Martin and one would not
expect a watercooled 1.1 litre engine to be worn out at 95,000 km
neither would I expect a well designed 1.1 litre air cooled engine
given the same care and attention. The missus bike had probably done
as many ups and downs of the pistons at 60,000 km as yours has at
95,000 km. It's done an additional 33,000 km since I rebuilt it's
engine. A lot of the wearing out was caused by the previous owner.
Her liquid cooled engine has rather significant air cooling fins on
the head so I guess this might be the reason it wore out :-)
...and well, that's all we can really suggest about EA Falcon problems
folks :-) Martin made me do it.
For our bikes just visit our site via the insult page, home then
bikes.
Cheers Al
Kieron Murphy
<mta...@gipps.com.au> wrote:
>Kieron Murphy said..
>
> KM> So why does a thermostat have quite a small 'hole' then, its clearly a
> KM> restrictor of some sort (Dennis did explain it).
>
>It's a bypass to allow a minimum flow.
Sorry, I was actually referring to the main hole, ie remove the
thermostat entirely and you have a hole of maybe 5cms across and the
thermostat reduces it to a smaller hole of approx 2-3cms across therby
creating the restriction of flow, this has to be there for a reason,
Dennis explained it as laminar flow which makes sense too.
> KM> If water stayed in the radiator for a longer period due to restricted
> KM> flow, would it not be cooler when it re-entered the engine?
>
>Yes, but the water in the engine will be overheated, as it can't move
>to carry away the heat generated by the engine.
I guess this is where it becomes tricky, as I would have thought that
if the water entering the engine is cooler, it could absorb more heat
therefore wouldn't need to travel as fast?
> KM> Or my analogy, if I ran into a cool room and straight out, im not
> KM> going to get as cold as if I walked thru the room?
>
>I don't think that this analogy is appropriate. For starters, water
>conducts heat about 30 times more than air. That's why air cooled
>motorcycle engines don't have the life expectancy of watercooled ones,
>and why the aircooled ones require oil that is more tolerant of high
>temps.
The analogy isn't going to be exact of course but its my body thats
abosorbing the ambient temp, in the engines case its the water.
>With water flowing through a block, it will absorb shitloads of heat. If
>you had a block of say, 3 times the capacity, then the water in there
>would be cooler, as not all of it is absorbing the heat.
ahhah yes, so the big question is how long would it take for the body
of coolant in the engine to reach its maximum cooling capacity at
different flow rates (asuming flow is laminar)
> KM> PS - I'm not trying to argue Martin, just wanting to better understand
>
>Yes, I know. Unfortunately, there are others who'd probably be flaming
>by this stage, if your opinion differed to theirs.
>
>Anyway, if anyone wants the physics of it explained, I can do one of two
>things. I can have one of the engineers at work explain it, or I can try
>and find my lecture notes on this stuff and explain it better.
Thank you for the offer, It would be interesting to know, but I don't
wan't to put you to any trouble Martin, i'll have a search round for
some info on it :-)
Kieron
Martin Taylor
Oz> Martin, you a lawyer or a public servant? :)
Neither, I am a technician in the power industry.
Oz> Of course there will be minimal differences in suction and discharge
Oz> however you'd need a water guage to get an accurate reading of those
Oz> differences. These are not pressure pumps only extremely basic
Oz> circulators. Extrememly basic!
They're a centrifugal flow pump. While not designed with super
efficiency in mind, they are still pumps, will still have a discharge
pressure, otherwise you will not get flow.
Oz1
Sure you're not a lawyer?
Seems you're using differnt terms to describe exactly what I'm talking
about. Guess that makes you right eh ;)
Oz