Holden Red 179 head on a 186 ?
shaun reids
Im after some information about getting a Holden red engine 179 head onto a
red 186 block.
I bought it from a fella who said it was off a 186, then i showed some
people and they said it was a 202 judging by the water/oil jacket holes.
then i asked others and they all had different opinions on what it was
exactally. Well, one nice fella looked up the id number stamped on the right
front (looking from the front) and told me its a 179 head.
Here is a picture if anyone else would like to look at it..
http://members.optushome.com.au/damage/other/help_head2.jpg
But, seeing as this fella had looked up the number for me and determined its
a 179, Im wondering if it will still fit onto my 186 block? Someone has said
yes, but then someone else has said it wont because they have differently
aligned holes.
I'll probably end up having to pull the head off my engine to see, but Id
still like to know what everyone thinks before I do it.. cos its a daily
driver and I kinda need it drivable..
thanks in advance,
shaun.
Chris
head and wil bolt on to your 186 motor.
"shaun reids" <nos...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
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The Raven
news:3ea4ea87$0$10377$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
It looks like a 179 because of the smaller combustion chambers. IIRC it
should fit without a problem. Your best bet, without pulling the head, is to
get a 186 head gasket and see if it lines up with the block.
Note it'll bump the compression a bit, which is why most people fit earlier
heads on the sixes.
--
The Raven
** Undisputed President of the ozemail.* NG's
** since August 15th 2000.
** Conqueror of the uunet.* NG's
shaun reids
> head and wil bolt on to your 186 motor.
well, this head has been port+polished and with bigger then usual inlet
ports. one person told me it looks to have exactally the same modifications
to it as his own yella terra head, which was a stage below the bathurst6000
heads they used on the xu-1's. its had quite a bit of work done to it.
i wouldnt know which would be better (this head or a 12port 202), but this
is what i have so im going to use it :)
thanks for your response anyhoiw :]
shaun.
shaun reids
> It looks like a 179 because of the smaller combustion chambers. IIRC it
> should fit without a problem. Your best bet, without pulling the head, is
to
> get a 186 head gasket and see if it lines up with the block.
yups, got one (186 gasket) from Autobarn and held it up against the head,
but the oil/water holes were all different. that was really whack. so i took
it back and got a 202 (didnt know it was 179 at the time), and it was
actually a universal gasket which had holes to suit anything.
heres a pic of the uni-gasket, but ive noted which holes the 186 gasket had
and the others that i *thought* were 202..
http://members.optushome.com.au/damage/other/help_head3.jpg
> Note it'll bump the compression a bit, which is why most people fit
earlier
> heads on the sixes.
well i didnt know it was a smaller head when buying it, but i guess this is
could possibly be a good thing after all.. have to see :)
thanks for your reply and comfirmation, my confidence in putting it on is
getting a lot stronger.
shaun.
shaun reids
> > Im after some information about getting a Holden red engine 179 head
onto a
> > red 186 block.
> They're the same block and the 179 head will go straight onto the 186.
> When I say the same block, the original EH blocks had "HP" cast into the
> side, the HD blocks had "179" and all 186 blocks had "186", except that
> Holden had a few spare HP blocks left over and they bored them out to
> 186 and used them for "warranty replacement engines". These had an
> engine number starting with "M" IIRC.
well im not too certain on what this might mean, but the head has HP on it
at the far right corner (lookin from the front). my engine has 186 stamped
on it, but from what i know, Torana's (which is the car its in) didnt come
with 186 engines. can be seen in this picture...
http://members.optushome.com.au/damage/other/help_head1.jpg
> > I bought it from a fella who said it was off a 186, then i showed some
> > people and they said it was a 202 judging by the water/oil jacket holes.
> > then i asked others and they all had different opinions on what it was
> > exactally. Well, one nice fella looked up the id number stamped on the
right
> > front (looking from the front) and told me its a 179 head.
> > Here is a picture if anyone else would like to look at it..
> > http://members.optushome.com.au/damage/other/help_head2.jpg
> Can't tell from that side. If the rockers are on studs sticking out of
> the head and can be adjusted, it is an early (149/161/179/186) head,
> whereas if it had a cast rocker "bridge" for each cylinder's pair of
> rockers and these bridges were bolted onto the top of the head, then it
> would be a later (173/2850/202/3.3) head...
it doesnt have any rockers on it at the moment, but the mechanic i bought it
off said the 186 rockers from my engine will fit right on. just if you
wanted to see, these few pictures you can (kinda) see the springs/studs.
http://members.optushome.com.au/damage/13-01.02.03/3-intake.exhaust.jpg
http://members.optushome.com.au/damage/13-01.02.03/4-springs.jpg
> > But, seeing as this fella had looked up the number for me and determined
its
> > a 179, Im wondering if it will still fit onto my 186 block? Someone has
said
> > yes, but then someone else has said it wont because they have
differently
> > aligned holes.
> Differently aligned holes? All red motor heads including pollution
> models have the same manifold bolt pattern. Even blue and black heads
> will bolt on, but they have a different manifold bolt pattern.
> Different heads will have different chamber volumes but aside from that,
> no difference.
oops sorry, i meant the wholes for the water/oil (im not sure which is which
:T) to circulate around the block and head.. maybe i shouldve explained
myself better :)
thank you very much for the reply athol. im feeling confident about the head
swap now. :)
shaun.
Justathought
donk.
"shaun reids" <nos...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
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Rainbow Warrior
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No problems as far as I know, we put a 186 on a mates 202, the only problem
we had was there no welsh plugs on the new head blocking the coolant holes
to the carby mainfold, result was water everywhere when we filled it up as
the existing earlier manifold didn't have a water jacket. Mate not being
real mechanical started running around the garage yelling "they ripped me
off, this heads cracked". Hadn't even started it yet.
Pat
Brisbane, Australia
http://www.powerup.com.au/~mangey/
97 Econovan, GQ Patrol Twin Cab, Malvern Star Sprint 12
Econovan........No police choppers following me around.
Justathought
"Rainbow Warrior" <wer...@iopasd.com> wrote in message
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The Raven
If all lines up, it's a bolt on.".
--
The Raven
** Undisputed President of the ozemail.* NG's
** since August 15th 2000.
** Conqueror of the uunet.* NG's
"The Raven" <ws...@flashmail.com> wrote in message
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JLM
problem
> we had was there no welsh plugs on the new head blocking the coolant holes
> to the carby mainfold, result was water everywhere when we filled it up as
> the existing earlier manifold didn't have a water jacket. Mate not being
> real mechanical started running around the garage yelling "they ripped me
> off, this heads cracked". Hadn't even started it yet.
>
ROFL
John McKenzie
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> Im after some information about getting a Holden red engine 179 head onto a
> red 186 block.
Generally speaking there are sort of 4 heads from holden reds.
there is the small and large chamber - basically the smaller capacity
engines had the smaller chamber and some of the larger capacity 'mildly
better performing larger cap ones used them. the 202s mostly got the
larger chamber head. not sure about the 179s specifically.
when the 202 came out, they also changed from adjustable stud mounted
rockers to non adjustable bolt and pedestal rockers.
So there are large and small chamber variants and the pre and post
fixed rocker versions. The 173s had a smaller chamber and the 202 low
comp had a larger chamber. The 202 HC motors - probably the earlier ones
probably used a small chamber head.
to tell if it is which head - is it stud mounted rockers? Most YT heads
are - even though not many are made now, the vast majority would be.
TO find out which chamber you can measure the chamber volume or you can
do it one step easier. on the top of the head, near the thermostat, next
to the front left corner head bolt from memory just outside the rocker
cover gasket 'lip' there will be either an H or an L cast into the head
- high or low compression.
by the chamber shape - it looks like a high compression casting.
I found another pic there - of the top of the head it has a H cast in a
different spot to where the L is cast on a head I had close enough to
check, but it is smaller chamber higher compression head
do you have a photo of the manifold face. by the look of the valves,
they aren't nearly as big as can be fitted. Bigger is not always better
and it's been that long since I've seen a stock holden head, I think the
valves are bigger than std, but can't tell you if tehy are big enoguh to
be yt bathurst sized. All the YT valves I have seen actually had YT on
the valve head....
In terms of flow, the EFI black motor 12 port is the pick of the _stock_
heads. It flows better than a blue 12 port and better than a stock 9
port.
The Yella Terra bathurst 6000, which is now called the bathurst 9000 I
think - it's not like I check, is the same as the Bathurst XU-1 head -
they actually did the machining on the modded and fitted heads on the
bathurst specials - done to enable homologation and use in series
production racing - and it definitely outflows the black 12 port head.
A bathurst6000 head (or similarly developed stock one) is good enough
for 230bhp - possibly 240 - beyond that you need further development nad
it can get expensive. They are a very good deal - I got a s/h yt head
last year for $50. An efi black motor 12 port flows enough to support
around 200bhp - I'm not sure what they were rated at but the efi black
motor was actually pretty well put together. Not breathtaking, but the
head, cam and indeed the inlet manifold all work pretty well in
conjunction with one another.
The blue and black motor heads did have core shift and otehr casting
problems. As a result they aren't safe to port. All of yella terras
ported 12 port options are actually made from new castings by
perfectune. The 9 port heads on the other hand can handle huge amounts
of port work
Believe it or not - apart from rare duggan semi down draught 12 port
heads (try finding one) the 9 port heads have room/potential for more
power/flow than the 12 ports. It's partly due to teh fact tehy have the
metal to work with, and also because group Nc racers have to run 9 ports
- so the only real development work going on today on any holden heads
is still focussed on the 9 ports.
>
> I bought it from a fella who said it was off a 186, then i showed some
> people and they said it was a 202 judging by the water/oil jacket holes.
> then i asked others and they all had different opinions on what it was
> exactally. Well, one nice fella looked up the id number stamped on the right
> front (looking from the front) and told me its a 179 head.
It's off a 179, a 186, a 161 or possibly a 149. I don't know for sure,
and frankly it doesn't matter - they all have the same potential - you
basically pick which chamber is practical with the engine size and fuel
octane to help achieve the appropriate compression ratio.
> Here is a picture if anyone else would like to look at it..
> http://members.optushome.com.au/damage/other/help_head2.jpg
>
> But, seeing as this fella had looked up the number for me and determined its
> a 179, Im wondering if it will still fit onto my 186 block? Someone has said
> yes, but then someone else has said it wont because they have differently
> aligned holes.
They are all interchangeable. apart from the port redesigns, the blue
motors had a couple of extra tiny holes in the head surface adn matching
ones in the block. You can either drill the block to fit a blue head to
the red block - using a blue head gasket as a template - they are only
tiny steam ports. You could also fit a 12 port head and just use the
rwed motor head gasket and not drill any holes. I knw plenty of people
who have done it and no-one has had a hint of trouble.
>
> I'll probably end up having to pull the head off my engine to see, but Id
> still like to know what everyone thinks before I do it.. cos its a daily
> driver and I kinda need it drivable..
Rather than checking where it came from, get it crack tested check the
condition of the valves and seats, the valve guides and then worry about
it. All the other stuff is pointless unless the head is in good
condition or will be freshened up before fitting.
btw the holden head flow data - is from a graph sent to be from
Perfectune which plots the flows of a bunch of stock and ported heads
(stock holden and their various offerings) all on the one graph.
--
John McKenzie
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John McKenzie
>
> thank you very much for the reply athol. im feeling confident about the head
> swap now. :)
Looking at the ports, and the sleeve on the inlet port head bolt area-
this looks like a YT bath 6000 head.
athol
>athol wrote: [attribution reinserted]
> http://members.optushome.com.au/damage/13-01.02.03/3-intake.exhaust.jpg
> http://members.optushome.com.au/damage/13-01.02.03/4-springs.jpg
It has studs sticking out for the rockers to go onto. That is what I was
saying indicates an early head. If it had been a later (173/202) head,
there would have been threaded bolt holes not studs.
And double valve springs... You'll have to rev it harder to get valve
bounce or float a lifter now. :-p
>> Differently aligned holes? All red motor heads including pollution
>> models have the same manifold bolt pattern. Even blue and black heads
>> will bolt on, but they have a different manifold bolt pattern.
>> Different heads will have different chamber volumes but aside from that,
>> no difference.
> oops sorry, i meant the wholes for the water/oil (im not sure which is which
> :T) to circulate around the block and head.. maybe i shouldve explained
> myself better :)
I understood what you said. I was trying to figure out how anybody could
possibly think that there was a difference - there's certainly no
difference on the block deck and gasket face of the head.
> thank you very much for the reply athol. im feeling confident about the head
> swap now. :)
Head change on a Holden 6... Piece of cake. If you are using a cast
manifold and are game, you might want to grind the edges of the holes in
the manifold so that the ports in the manifold are equal to or larger than
the holes in the head:
Matched: Manifold larger: Manifold smaller:
|---
---|--- ---| ---|
| | |---
-> | -> -> | -> -> | ->
| | |---
---|--- ---| ---|
|---
Good Good Bad
Extractors would generally already be bigger.
If you've got a manual on the engines, it'll explain how to adjust the
rockers without the engine running. One thing that you don't want to do
is run the engine with the tappet cover off to adjust the rockers...
--
Athol
<http://cust.idl.com.au/athol>
Linux Registered User # 254000
Jason James
"shaun reids" <nos...@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
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Rainbow Warrior
news:1051065967.130255@webserver...
> Rainbow Warrior <wer...@iopasd.com> wrote:
>
> > No problems as far as I know, we put a 186 on a mates 202, the only
problem
> > we had was there no welsh plugs on the new head blocking the coolant
holes
> > to the carby mainfold, result was water everywhere when we filled it up
as
> > the existing earlier manifold didn't have a water jacket. Mate not being
> > real mechanical started running around the garage yelling "they ripped
me
> > off, this heads cracked". Hadn't even started it yet.
>
> coolant feed is from a heater hose on the casting under the thermostat,
> which is bolted to the front of the head. Other than that, there is a
> threaded hole near the back on the passenger side that was used as the
> heater outlet on EH & HD and for the temperature sender on later models.
> I forget where the EH idiot light sender was...
>
> Athol
Different manifolds had different carby pre-heat set ups, that was our
problem, we were using a non heated manifold, or perhaps we were using a
pre-heated manifold, I forget which the result was the same anyway, I'm
pretty sure we had to get welsh plugs to fix it.