Draw through weber turbo setups
Nevo
rotary?
In particular I'm interested in comments on it's practically and tuning
limitations. I've seen these setups work exceptionally well on some cars and
on others just become a continual tuning nightmare never achieving the
desired results.
I'm considering using a single 48mm draw through system running low boost on
my 12A rotary as a cost effective addition until I can justify a complete
13BT setup.
My only concern here is if this type of setup can be made to run in a
reasonable manner.
Thanks..
Nevo
meggala
boost on a draw though system with a suitably reinforced engine.
(cosworth pistons etc) It should be no trouble if you have a person
with more than 15 yrs of turbo experiance as most of the johnnie come
latelys have rarely seen one. and his ran fine with and adjustable
boost control. shouldn't be a problem with a mazda specialist.
cheers
meggala
David
get the fuel mix correct. Draw through turbo setups can lean out easily
at high revs/boost. You end up having to run a rich mix at lower boost
levels.
--
Dave
****
"It's all just a load of Klatchian to me..."
Rincewind
****
Wight
blow through carburettor would be an ideal budget choice, just need an efi
pump (or any pump that will keep fuel pressure above boost pressure) and I
use a modified efi regulator which gives me 5 pounds of fuel pressure and 1
pound more for every pound of boost. This way he could intercool it as
well, and possibly use the same plumbing later if he ever decided to change
to efi. Mine runs only slightly rich, but correct ratios can be obtained
with accurate tuning of main and air corrector jets.
David <d.bu...@uq.net.au> wrote in message
news:3AED1F07...@uq.net.au...
Nevo
always dealt with and he's given me a few more idea's. Biggest problem at
this point in time is choice of carby. Apparently the side draft webers are
an expensive item in their own right. As for the rest, I have a custom turbo
exhaust manifold ($300), Series 4 RX7 turbo ($250), I'm constructing an
intake manifold, I need a fuel pump and regulator, so far I'm looking to get
out of the whole process for around $1200 fitted and tuned. Which on a
dollar per fun basis I think is pretty good. The engine has only done
5000km's since it's freshen up and is mild extend ported so the whole thing
should go ok.
As another option I know of a secondhand Microtech computer and injection
perfection EFI throttle body for sale, yet to confirm the price on that so
I'll see how things go. Either way I don't want to blow the budget as I can
have a complete 300HP 13BT Microtech system fitted for $4500 so unless I'm
spending well under half that it's not an option.
Thanks for your comments.
Nevo
"Wight" <wi...@giant.net.au> wrote in message
news:3aed...@nap-ns1.netconnect.net.au...
Forg
...
> As another option I know of a secondhand Microtech computer and injection
> perfection EFI throttle body for sale, yet to confirm the price on that so
> I'll see how things go.
I've never seen a Microtech of Digi-1 standard (or older) which ran a
rotary smoothly, but I've seen a very nice & progressive 12AT with a
suck-through Weber setup. Unless it's a real late Microtech, go the
Webers ... but having said that, if you get something like a used MoTeC
for $700, you can spend the same on the injection as a good set of
reco'd Webers.
--
Forg! -DUH#6=- (Y1)
"...
this crazy Forg surrounds me
..."
[Live - "When Dolphins Cry"]
John McKenzie
It should be no trouble if you have a person
> with more than 15 yrs of turbo experiance as most of the johnnie come
> latelys have rarely seen one.
this is probably the best single piece of advice you will get. A lot of
places will try and push injection on you - for two reasons - it is far
more profitable, and they don't know how to set up a carb. my recent
search for the right foam to fill the floats with for a blow through
carb got a lot of ums and aahs, and of all the places that my local
turbo place rang, not one had _actually done_ a blow through carb setup.
A few have done draw through SU's even less webers. don't let this
discourage you though, you will quite likely get enough zip that you put
off the second stage you mentioned. there is some problem with webers
(not SU's) that initial attempts at using them in draw through setups
caused a high speed lean out, but this is something that was sorted out
20 odd years ago, and anyone who thinks that this is a problem without
an answer is in touch with the wrong people. To play devils advocate, I
don't actually know what has to be done to fix the problem, but there
are people that do, ring around until you find one that knows, and is
willing to explain why. If you hunt around (rather than go new) you
might find the right carb without shelling out the $500 odd I have seen
them go for- try alfa wreckers for a start. sicne the carb has to be
tailored to your needs, a rebuilt one will still need to come apart.
You could also go for twin su's or strombergs, if they will fit. they
are really easy to set up, and you wont notice much of a difference
between them and a weber (honest). If you are in melbourne, and want a
lend of some strombergs to try let me know, I have a set from my
holden/garret setup.
Persevere with it though, because well sorted out a carb can be
excellent.
John McKenzie
John McKenzie
Nevo
only uses microtech systems and they run fantastic. He sells the fuel only
microtech (M4??) for $750 new.
You can read the article about one of his weber setups on Autospeed, it's
the blue RX3 with a draw through weber, no intercooler or fuel injection and
it does 10 second quarters. He swears by microtech and I've seen the results
of what he can do with them, 3, 4 & 500HP rotarys that start and run as
smooth as an efi car should. He also has a 9 second microtech controlled
13BT car and regularly does 13BT conversions. So I don't believe there will
be any problems with making the secondhand system work correctly, it all
just depends on price as to it being a worthwhile exercise or not.
The other point that is off concern with the weber is the chance of a fuel
blockage or grit in the carby that could cause a lean condition while on
boost, there's a much reduced chance of this happening with an efi setup.
Nevo
"Forg" <fo...@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:3AEE7D29...@zip.com.au...
Nevo
"John McKenzie" <jm...@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message
news:3AEE9B...@alphalink.com.au...
> meggala wrote:
> It should be no trouble if you have a person
> > with more than 15 yrs of turbo experiance as most of the johnnie come
> > latelys have rarely seen one.
>
> this is probably the best single piece of advice you will get. A lot of
> places will try and push injection on you - for two reasons - it is far
> more profitable, and they don't know how to set up a carb. my recent
> search for the right foam to fill the floats with for a blow through
> carb got a lot of ums and aahs, and of all the places that my local
> turbo place rang, not one had _actually done_ a blow through carb setup.
> A few have done draw through SU's even less webers. don't let this
The guy that would be doing the majority of the work is very experienced
with both webers, turbo's and rotaries and has a 13B rotary with a single
draw through weber pushing close to 400hp as well as many EFI turbo
rotaries. He's been around for many years.
> discourage you though, you will quite likely get enough zip that you put
> off the second stage you mentioned. there is some problem with webers
> (not SU's) that initial attempts at using them in draw through setups
> caused a high speed lean out, but this is something that was sorted out
> 20 odd years ago, and anyone who thinks that this is a problem without
The only reason there was a suggestion towards the efi is to try and avoid
the possibility of a carby getting grit sucked into it and actually blocking
causing a lean out.
> an answer is in touch with the wrong people. To play devils advocate, I
> don't actually know what has to be done to fix the problem, but there
> are people that do, ring around until you find one that knows, and is
> willing to explain why. If you hunt around (rather than go new) you
> might find the right carb without shelling out the $500 odd I have seen
> them go for- try alfa wreckers for a start. sicne the carb has to be
> tailored to your needs, a rebuilt one will still need to come apart.
I've seen them range from $80 to $800 people just don't seem to know what
their worth.
> You could also go for twin su's or strombergs, if they will fit. they
> are really easy to set up, and you wont notice much of a difference
> between them and a weber (honest). If you are in melbourne, and want a
> lend of some strombergs to try let me know, I have a set from my
> holden/garret setup.
Thanks for such a generous offer. I'm still trying to work out which way to
go at the moment, the car is currently getting a gearbox modification to
help handle the power after having the original mazda box fail twice with
the N/A 12A extend port rotary that's in there at the moment. Opting for the
typical Corona 5 spd conversion for rotaries, they seem to be good up to
500hp. Also getting a much heavier tail shaft as it needs to be shortened
anyway.
> Persevere with it though, because well sorted out a carb can be
> excellent.
Yes, hopefully it will all pay off in the end, it's all good fun either way
and that's all that matters:-) Thanks for the advice.
Nevo
John McKenzie
> The guy that would be doing the majority of the work is very experienced
> with both webers, turbo's and rotaries and has a 13B rotary with a single
> draw through weber pushing close to 400hp as well as many EFI turbo
> rotaries. He's been around for many years.
sounds good to me
> The only reason there was a suggestion towards the efi is to try and avoid
> the possibility of a carby getting grit sucked into it and actually blocking
> causing a lean out.
heard of fuel filters?
if it could block a needle and seat, it could block an injector. but
neither would happen with a fuel filter. problem solved. If you mean
grit in the intake then replace above with "ever hear of air filters" .
I know i am coming off as a smartass here, but seriously the above could
only be an issue without the proper filters - and they arent something
you should scrimp on.
> I've seen them range from $80 to $800 people just don't seem to know what
> their worth.
Ask your guy if he can setup a draw through dellorto (since htey are
pretty similar carbs) I have one that is in pieces.it is a 45 dhla.(i
think thats the right lettering - its a 45 side draft.) unless I have
dropped something down the back of a work bench, it is complete, and
even has a spare choke or two. If your guy can set these up, its yours
free. anything to see another carby turbo motor - just to prove how good
they can go, and in terms of bang for buck how they really are in a
league of their own. email me for details if you are interested.
As for driveability I have this to say. even an average draw through, in
my experience is easier to drive than a hot cammed normally aspirated
carbed motor. So going from this it would apply to a rotary - I suppose
an equivalent would be an extend port (is that the mildest one) turbo
draw through would be far more drivable than a monster ported normally
aspirated rotary. Generally turbo motors go best with stock or near
stock cams. I remember hearing that even an extend ported turbo rotary
is incredibly powerful - so I guess the issue of cam overlap on a piston
engine would perhaps relate to porting on a rotary.... what is the story
with the porting on the factory turbo rotaries?
John McKenzie
Shaddow Edge
John McKenzie wrote in message <3AEFE5...@alphalink.com.au>...
>Nevo wrote:
>
>> The guy that would be doing the majority of the work is very experienced
>> with both webers, turbo's and rotaries and has a 13B rotary with a single
>> draw through weber pushing close to 400hp as well as many EFI turbo
>> rotaries. He's been around for many years.
>
>sounds good to me
>
>
>> The only reason there was a suggestion towards the efi is to try and
avoid
>> the possibility of a carby getting grit sucked into it and actually
blocking
>> causing a lean out.
>
>heard of fuel filters?
>if it could block a needle and seat, it could block an injector. but
>neither would happen with a fuel filter. problem solved. If you mean
>grit in the intake then replace above with "ever hear of air filters" .
>I know i am coming off as a smartass here, but seriously the above could
>only be an issue without the proper filters - and they arent something
>you should scrimp on.
And what was wrong with three layers of stockings I ask you??? It stopped
everything till I got it a filter. And the noise... grin factor.
Shaddow
John McKenzie
> >only be an issue without the proper filters - and they arent something
> >you should scrimp on.
>
> And what was wrong with three layers of stockings I ask you??? It stopped
> everything till I got it a filter. And the noise... grin factor.
you know the turbo spools up much faster since I removed that big rock
that was stuck in the compressor wheel
John McKenzie
Nevo
> Nevo wrote:
>
> > The guy that would be doing the majority of the work is very experienced
> > with both webers, turbo's and rotaries and has a 13B rotary with a
single
> > draw through weber pushing close to 400hp as well as many EFI turbo
> > rotaries. He's been around for many years.
>
> sounds good to me
Look on the autospeed site to see the article about his blue RX3, it's free
now, explains one of his draw through setups.
> > The only reason there was a suggestion towards the efi is to try and
avoid
> > the possibility of a carby getting grit sucked into it and actually
blocking
> > causing a lean out.
>
> heard of fuel filters?
> if it could block a needle and seat, it could block an injector. but
> neither would happen with a fuel filter. problem solved. If you mean
> grit in the intake then replace above with "ever hear of air filters" .
> I know i am coming off as a smartass here, but seriously the above could
> only be an issue without the proper filters - and they arent something
> you should scrimp on.
To be honest I couldn't see a problem with that either, just experiences
I've heard from other people. But who's to know what actually happened to
their setups and if that was the problem, or just their excuse for a poorly
setup system.
> > I've seen them range from $80 to $800 people just don't seem to know
what
> > their worth.
>
> Ask your guy if he can setup a draw through dellorto (since htey are
> pretty similar carbs) I have one that is in pieces.it is a 45 dhla.(i
> think thats the right lettering - its a 45 side draft.) unless I have
Yes, I've seen those used on Holden 6's before. I'll have a chat to him
about them and see what he has to say. Ideally I'd like to go with the carby
setup if it can be done for the correct budget. It's not lack of money
that's the problem, it's simply that there's no point in spending too much
because if I do it would be better just to move to a complete 13B EFI turbo
setup.
> dropped something down the back of a work bench, it is complete, and
> even has a spare choke or two. If your guy can set these up, its yours
> free. anything to see another carby turbo motor - just to prove how good
> they can go, and in terms of bang for buck how they really are in a
> league of their own. email me for details if you are interested.
I will most definitely be looking into it. Thankyou for the offer. If it's
suitable then I'd be more than happy to travel down to Melbourne and pay you
for it. I'll get back to you after speaking with the mechanic.
> As for driveability I have this to say. even an average draw through, in
> my experience is easier to drive than a hot cammed normally aspirated
> carbed motor. So going from this it would apply to a rotary - I suppose
> an equivalent would be an extend port (is that the mildest one) turbo
When we were rebuilding the 12A and porting in the back of my mind I wanted
to fit a turbo to that particular engine down the track. For this reason the
porting is quite mild and the engine operates in much the same manner as a
standard port. The actual amount of extend in the port is minimal meaning
the overlap is close to standard, we mainly concentrated on making the port
bigger rather than extending it too much. To compare the port to a cam'd
piston motor, you wouldn't even notice a lump it's that mild.
> draw through would be far more drivable than a monster ported normally
> aspirated rotary. Generally turbo motors go best with stock or near
> stock cams. I remember hearing that even an extend ported turbo rotary
> is incredibly powerful - so I guess the issue of cam overlap on a piston
> engine would perhaps relate to porting on a rotary.... what is the story
> with the porting on the factory turbo rotaries?
There's is definitely a benefit in porting a turbo rotary however it must be
kept mild or your defeating the purpose. You'll find most of the big
horsepower turbo rotaries have very mild porting and the concentration is on
making the existing port flow better rather than extending the port size
having an effect on intake/exhaust overlap. When you move to a more extreme
port like a bridgeport the overlap causes that "brap brap brap" sound that's
familiar with rotaries due to the overlap. This type of port or anything
above is too extreme for turbo setup's.
Nevo
John McKenzie
> To be honest I couldn't see a problem with that either, just experiences
> I've heard from other people. But who's to know what actually happened to
> their setups and if that was the problem, or just their excuse for a poorly
> setup system.
for every 50 people who "used to have a such and such setup" or "knew
someone who did" there is probably one genuine article. Sort of like in
another thread in aus.cars about resonators and do they quieten noise.
well they should but I had one fitted which made no difference before
and after. It goes against the grain, but it is a real experience not a
myth. As for carby turbo setups. they are getting rarer and rarer. I
will say this though the earlier (pre general motors takeover of lotus)
lotus esprit turbo was at the time of its manufacture the fastest 4
cylinder in the world. It was blow through carbed turbo. when gm took
over they used their EFI tech and it was admittedly quicker still, but
it was still one hell of a quick car before this. When I was a first
year apprentice, I worked at Mantons, which was at the time the only
place nationwide that was authorised to service Lotus. I can't say I
worked on them a lot, but I was exposed to the technology.
Anyway the point of all that was a carbed turbo can be made to work, and
haul ass. and it neednt cost an arm and a leg. Although the weber or
dellorto would probably "look" more hardcore, I doubt you would lose
more than a few hp to a well sorted twin SU/stromberg setup. the
su/strommie i still a very valid option since they cost fuck all (well
you would pay through the nose from a turbo place, but go to a wrecker
and rip them off an old pommie car and you are set.) the linkages to
mate two strombergs together (which could be adapted to twin HIF su's)
are available from lynx for around $100 or so - they are for mounting
triple SU's on a lynx holden manifold, but would just as easily be used
in this scenario. you can get high flow needle and seats, and then the
actual needle and spring (for mixture throughout the rev range) is just
a matter of trial and error. No doubt a call to someone like Mike Vine
in capalaba queensland or someone else who has done this sort of draw
through could get you at least with a needle profile that is in the
ballpark and a decent starting point.
If you want to borrow a twin stromberg setup (still bolted to the
manifold to suit the fron of a T04) let me know - I have it but dont
want to part with it permanently at this stage, but if you want to trial
fit and so on....If you want the dellorto just holler - its yours. There
is no way I will ever use it (it was for my mini, but now I have a
factory turbo setup so wont need it ever, so its a shame to see it go to
waste). the way I see it, it isnt doing anyone any good sitting here,
and this way it might end up being part of an aus cars story about a
badass turbo rotary. seems like a good idea to me.
> Yes, I've seen those used on Holden 6's before. I'll have a chat to him
> about them and see what he has to say. Ideally I'd like to go with the carby
> setup if it can be done for the correct budget.
I first got the turbo bug when I went to buy some starfire rods for a
supercharged holden 6 project I was going to do - at the age of 16 -
about one month into my apprenticeship. the guy I bought them off showed
me what with the bonnet down looked like a shitbox purple gemini.looking
around the garage I suddenly clicked that the 44 gallon drums were
actually avgas. he lifted the bonnet to reveal turbo four. It had a
draw through weber on it. after seeing a four banger without millions of
dollars poured into it capable of 140mph, I started to rethink the way I
was going to force feed my torana (the first of 9 I have owned).
the turbo corolla has hit the $1000 mark today. but that is all we had
to spend. changing from a carter bbd to a holley meant that the carb
bonnet we built would no longer fit. the only way to adapt the turbo to
the top of the holley 350 was to use an LPG snorkel. this combined with
a reusable gasket set, the power valve blockoff plug and a nitrophyll
float finally put us over $1000 total (the exchange rate and the fact
that we couldnt find one at any of the wreckers we went to meant the new
lpg bits cost $60 - a big spend considering the rest) . Just to put the
wind up the naysayers, we ran the car without the carb bonnet on so
basically unboosted, to see that the carb was all working ok and it not
only idled, but went smoothly all the way to redline with a 350 holley.
I bet most people would say that there is no way you could run a 350
holley on a 1.3, but you can and we have. tomorrow is d day so to speak
- full powr runs.....
It's not lack of money
> that's the problem, it's simply that there's no point in spending too much
> because if I do it would be better just to move to a complete 13B EFI turbo
> setup.
I suppose so but I cant imagine that a carb setup would cost anything
even near what the full factory setup would cost.
t. Thankyou for the offer. If it's
> suitable then I'd be more than happy to travel down to Melbourne and pay you
> for it. I'll get back to you after speaking with the mechanic.
fuck paying for it. this isnt aus.cars.profit :)
let us know what your guy says re: the carb...
John McKenzie
atec77
a convertible in the back yard...
G>
John McKenzie wrote:
--
Me , myself and I
Forg
>
> Nevo wrote:
> > it's simply that there's no point in spending too much
> > because if I do it would be better just to move to a complete
> > 13B EFI turbo setup.
>
> I suppose so but I cant imagine that a carb setup would cost
> anything even near what the full factory setup would cost.
Well, the problem is this; any dickwad can set up a
costs-next-to-nothing used-import engine; it's just a matter of bolting
it all together and connecting the wires. By comparison, you actually
need to know what you're doing with a carby setup; and you'd also
undoubtedly need something fabricated.
That is, IMHO you _might_ be lucky & pay less for the materials in a
carby setup, but even if that happens surely you'd need to find someone
who knew about suck-through systems? I imagine they're not all that easy
to find anymore?
John McKenzie
> > I suppose so but I cant imagine that a carb setup would cost
> > anything even near what the full factory setup would cost.
> ...
>
> Well, the problem is this; any dickwad can set up a
> costs-next-to-nothing used-import engine; it's just a matter of bolting
> it all together and connecting the wires.
I will happily stand corrected on this, but most of the import motors
I have seen are costly if you want the computer as well.
I was basing it on this. when i was looking at a vtec for my mini
(it has been done overseas a bit) I was looking at 3500 for a front cut
that was a while ago, so maybe prices have come down but I am not sure.
A used turbo on the other hand is maybe $300. fabricating an exahust
can be done by anyone who can weld. (the stainless mandrel bends that we
used - and off cuts of straight pipe set us back a total of $50 (fifty
dollars not a typo) the most expensive single item was the turbo - $200.
the carb came close at around $180 total with gaskets etc (and dont
forget that the car would be around $900 total have we used the hollley
first instead of the carter bbd)
By comparison, you actually
> need to know what you're doing with a carby setup; and you'd also
> undoubtedly need something fabricated.
its honestly not out of the scope of a backyarder. i think a lot of the
talk of the difficulty of a home brew setup is blown out of proportion
(perhaps having its roots in companies that offer that sort of service
for an astronomical price).
If we had taken the corolla to a turbo place and asked for a conversion
to the standard we are doing (and performance level) it would probably
be around $5000.
>
> That is, IMHO you _might_ be lucky & pay less for the materials in a
> carby setup, but even if that happens surely you'd need to find someone
> who knew about suck-through systems? I imagine they're not all that easy
> to find anymore?
they turn up every so often. actualy adapters to mount a carb to the
front of the turbo would still be had new or at the very least new old
stock. fuck they are a small lump of aluminium, you could get almost any
engineering firm to turn one up for around $100. the corolla is a blow
through so not too much was needed in the way of manifolding. we
originally plugged the stud holes in the inlet with aluminium plugs,
then redrilled/retapped and enlarged the orifice for the bbd (which fit
easier than a 32 36 dgv which would have required a new manifold - the
barrels are too far apart to fit the manifold - even with an adapter
plate without a massive compromise in the flow path). now we are running
a 350 holley with an adapter plate to the "bbd manifold" . this is far
less of a compromise in the flow path than the 32 36 dgv - in fact it
looks strangely comortable in what a thousand people would say isnt
even a possible scenario. in a blow through you either have to fill the
floats with expaning foam (or they collapse under boost - we had the
best luck in the bbd with the maximal expanding type - from bunnings. we
couldn re seal the brass floats with solder - the foam melted (even
after being left for a week to set) and bubble out the hole all the
time, so we used araldite. on the holley you can get the floats ready
made - they are called nitrophyll - cheap too. the power valve is a
gamble on a blow through, so we played it safe (on the bbd we removed
the metering rods - same function - and filled and redrilled the jets to
the size that would flow the same as the former jet with the thin part
of the metering rod in it - as a starting point) we installed a power
valve blockoff plug. to compensate we jet a little richer. I know this
means we lose a bit of off boost economy, but give a shit. if anyone is
interested in the holley base settings that we are trying : 66 jets
standard acc pump cam in no 2 position. 31 accel pump orifice. the
acelerator linkage is made from a push bike brake cable ($4.00) and a L
shaped shelf bracket (the holes are just a tad small for the cable
locator, so we drill them a smidge)for safety we added an extra returbn
spring ($3.00 from memory from bunnings hardware) everything on it is
sourced from wrecking yards or home built or sourced locally new if
absolutely necessary.
As for difficulty setting up the carb? on a blow through it isnt that
hard, details on request. On a draw through, it takes a little patience,
but is so shit easy as to be laughable. Even if you don't have much of a
clue, you could stuff around with a needle that was too thick for your
application at the pointy end, try it, and slowly file it. the top 1/3
near the piston (the thick end) is for idle the middle third for cruise
and the bottom (thin) for power. this is a rough as guts description,
and obviously getting the perfect setting is more precise, but if you
erred on the side of cuation, and fille too much away from the bottom
section of the needle (deliberately too rich) you would be ok.
Its funny, almost no one would even be able to get a EFI system running
without dyno time(in a custom application that has an aftermarket efi)
but everyone is derisive of carbs that most likely even an idiot could
get running ok (there is enough stuff on the web if you look that you
cold make a homebuilt turbo carbed car and get it to run well)
If i missed anything sorry, I am running late.
John McKenzie
Nevo
motor like any joe blow mechanic could. He really knows his rotaries and
how to make them work well, and doesn't bother with factory computers.
An example is a series 2 RX7 that's the owner had spent of $20,000 on
fitting a turbo tripple rotor 20B and having problems galore in Melbourne
cause nobody could make it run correctly. He did.
He manufactures alloy adaptor plates, custom turbo manifolds and many more
items that he sells throughout Australia and exports to the USA. He
fabricates all types of tricky stuff that I wouldn't even know the use for.
It's all very impressive though, if you'd seen some of the cars that leave
his business you wouldn't be so sceptical. But what you say is true, there
are far too many people out there without the ability to do what they say
and pass off their so called expertise to people without the knowledge to
back it up.
Nevo
"Forg" <fo...@zip.com.au> wrote in message
news:3AF16B2B...@zip.com.au...
Nevo
> Nevo wrote:
>
> > To be honest I couldn't see a problem with that either, just experiences
> > I've heard from other people. But who's to know what actually happened
to
> > their setups and if that was the problem, or just their excuse for a
poorly
> > setup system.
>
> for every 50 people who "used to have a such and such setup" or "knew
> someone who did" there is probably one genuine article. Sort of like in
Yes, it's just like the mines bigger, better and faster than yours stories
at the pub.
> another thread in aus.cars about resonators and do they quieten noise.
> well they should but I had one fitted which made no difference before
> and after. It goes against the grain, but it is a real experience not a
> myth. As for carby turbo setups. they are getting rarer and rarer. I
> will say this though the earlier (pre general motors takeover of lotus)
> lotus esprit turbo was at the time of its manufacture the fastest 4
> cylinder in the world. It was blow through carbed turbo. when gm took
> over they used their EFI tech and it was admittedly quicker still, but
> it was still one hell of a quick car before this. When I was a first
> year apprentice, I worked at Mantons, which was at the time the only
> place nationwide that was authorised to service Lotus. I can't say I
> worked on them a lot, but I was exposed to the technology.
I think that can be said for many carby cars besides the turbo setups. The
old carby may not have the refinement of EFI for highway cruising, fuel
economy and cold starts, but for performance and power it's amazing what can
be done with a carby. You just have to look at their wide use in American
car racing, drag racing and others to see that their still a very popular
alternative even though EFI has been around for quite some time now.
> Anyway the point of all that was a carbed turbo can be made to work, and
> haul ass. and it neednt cost an arm and a leg. Although the weber or
> dellorto would probably "look" more hardcore, I doubt you would lose
> more than a few hp to a well sorted twin SU/stromberg setup. the
I spoke with the guy about the Dellorto and the SU's. He said the Dellorto
would work fine however he said the available parts such as jets are
becoming quite limited, or at least his access to them is when compared with
the webers. He already has a large number of weber accessories and it would
be much easier to get the correct setup for the weber because of the
numerous jets and parts he already has. As for the SU's, mounting was a
concern as there isn't a great deal of room. He said they will also work ok
but believes they would still be restrictive at high revs compared with the
weber. My 12A actually makes power to almost 8000rpm. Ideally he believes
the 48mm weber is the perfect setup and the SU's would be about the
equivalent of using a 45mm weber which he believes does make a difference.
So ideally at this stage I'm trying to find a 48mm side draft at this time.
I'm in no hurry so it's not of concern, thankyou again for the offer.
> su/strommie i still a very valid option since they cost fuck all (well
> you would pay through the nose from a turbo place, but go to a wrecker
> and rip them off an old pommie car and you are set.) the linkages to
> mate two strombergs together (which could be adapted to twin HIF su's)
> are available from lynx for around $100 or so - they are for mounting
> triple SU's on a lynx holden manifold, but would just as easily be used
> in this scenario. you can get high flow needle and seats, and then the
> actual needle and spring (for mixture throughout the rev range) is just
> a matter of trial and error. No doubt a call to someone like Mike Vine
> in capalaba queensland or someone else who has done this sort of draw
> through could get you at least with a needle profile that is in the
> ballpark and a decent starting point.
It's a consideration that I will keep in mind but again if they are mounted
side by side room is a problem. Also, I'm not sure if your familiar with how
a rotary works but there is also an Oil Injection system that provides extra
oil into the combustion chambers to lubricate the apex seals. The system
feeds oil through oil lines into the factory carby to mix with the fuel and
air, much like a 2 stroke system. The oil injection works via a rod
connected to the carby which moves respectively to the throttle position.
The weber carby is an ideal setup as the throttle can work from one side of
it's shaft and the oil injection rod can work directly off the other side if
the carb is mounted in the correct position. Not sure as to how easy this
setup would work with twin SU's. Comments?
> If you want to borrow a twin stromberg setup (still bolted to the
> manifold to suit the fron of a T04) let me know - I have it but dont
> want to part with it permanently at this stage, but if you want to trial
> fit and so on....If you want the dellorto just holler - its yours. There
> is no way I will ever use it (it was for my mini, but now I have a
> factory turbo setup so wont need it ever, so its a shame to see it go to
> waste). the way I see it, it isnt doing anyone any good sitting here,
> and this way it might end up being part of an aus cars story about a
> badass turbo rotary. seems like a good idea to me.
Thankyou, but at this point in time I think sourcing a weber seems to be the
best option all round in the long term. I'm certainly keeping it in mind
though.
> > Yes, I've seen those used on Holden 6's before. I'll have a chat to him
> > about them and see what he has to say. Ideally I'd like to go with the
carby
> > setup if it can be done for the correct budget.
>
> I first got the turbo bug when I went to buy some starfire rods for a
> supercharged holden 6 project I was going to do - at the age of 16 -
> about one month into my apprenticeship. the guy I bought them off showed
> me what with the bonnet down looked like a shitbox purple gemini.looking
> around the garage I suddenly clicked that the 44 gallon drums were
> actually avgas. he lifted the bonnet to reveal turbo four. It had a
> draw through weber on it. after seeing a four banger without millions of
> dollars poured into it capable of 140mph, I started to rethink the way I
> was going to force feed my torana (the first of 9 I have owned).
Your even a fellow torana owner:-). The mechanic I refer to also has a twin
SU turbo 186 holden EH two door convertible. It's a bit of a hack box
actually, not registered, just used as a fun promo car at shows for his
business.
> the turbo corolla has hit the $1000 mark today. but that is all we had
> to spend. changing from a carter bbd to a holley meant that the carb
> bonnet we built would no longer fit. the only way to adapt the turbo to
> the top of the holley 350 was to use an LPG snorkel. this combined with
> a reusable gasket set, the power valve blockoff plug and a nitrophyll
> float finally put us over $1000 total (the exchange rate and the fact
> that we couldnt find one at any of the wreckers we went to meant the new
> lpg bits cost $60 - a big spend considering the rest) . Just to put the
> wind up the naysayers, we ran the car without the carb bonnet on so
> basically unboosted, to see that the carb was all working ok and it not
> only idled, but went smoothly all the way to redline with a 350 holley.
> I bet most people would say that there is no way you could run a 350
> holley on a 1.3, but you can and we have. tomorrow is d day so to speak
> - full powr runs.....
Well that sounds like a whole heap of fun:-) Good luck.
> It's not lack of money
> > that's the problem, it's simply that there's no point in spending too
much
> > because if I do it would be better just to move to a complete 13B EFI
turbo
> > setup.
>
> I suppose so but I cant imagine that a carb setup would cost anything
> even near what the full factory setup would cost.
Ok, to give you the rundown, I can get a complete 13BT import engine
conversion including gearbox, new microtech m4 computer, new fuel pump,
surge tank, fuel lines, custom turbo manifold, increased boost, intake
manifold modification, front mounted intercooler, mandrel piping, fitting
and dyno tunning and 300hp at the engine for $4500 drive in drive out. City
people are paying between $6000-$7000 for the same thing. So basically want
I'm saying is no matter what I'm not spending anywhere near that. I'm
already forking out $1200 for a modified gearbox, heavier tailshaft,
crossmember and clutch setup if I decide to keep my current engine as my
current gearbox has packed it in. That setup will mean my driveline is good
for a 500hp engine though which means I shouldn't have to touch that again.
I'd like to keep my 12A engine though because it has perfect rotor
housings( They were the best two housings from over 20 that I had to pick
from ), is only 5000km's since the rebuild, has a very good port job and a
competition lightened flywheel. And from my experience so far it's a strong
little engine, it's gets a hard time, been down the drag strip a few times
and you can fell the apex seals starting to bed in and the compression is
very good.
> t. Thankyou for the offer. If it's
> > suitable then I'd be more than happy to travel down to Melbourne and pay
you
> > for it. I'll get back to you after speaking with the mechanic.
>
> fuck paying for it. this isnt aus.cars.profit :)
Thanks.
> let us know what your guy says re: the carb...
Looks like I'm going to leave it for now and try and find a 48mm weber, I
haven't tried that hard yet. I know of a few places in bendigo I can try.
Maybe I can swap the 4 holleys and 32/36 down draft weber I have sitting in
the shed;-)
Nevo
Shaddow Edge
John McKenzie wrote in message <3AF092...@alphalink.com.au>...
There was a rock in there? Shit there was no hole in the stockings. I
checked every day it went out. I was pretty paranoid (despite how I act) The
first time it started it had the stockings on. Then it got a filter. Never
changed pitch the whole time I had it? oh except when the um engine died
could that have spat something up (just wondering now)
Shaddow
John McKenzie
My 12A actually makes power to almost 8000rpm. Ideally he believes
> the 48mm weber is the perfect setup and the SU's would be about the
> equivalent of using a 45mm weber which he believes does make a difference.
how much BHP are you chasing? the twin strombergs are probably good for
300. A lot of people spin shit about the old holden garret kits. The
limitations were the shithouse head/port design of the holden, combined
with a too small turbo (exhaust housing and even compressor as
supplied). So most of the kits, were making around 250-280. One of the
best things in terms of single improvement was changing the compressor
housing/wheel and also the exhaust. A lot of people claim more power
(even up to 400 bhp) from twin strombergs, but I would wave the bullshit
flag at those sort of claims.
> So ideally at this stage I'm trying to find a 48mm side draft at this time.
What 48 weber is side draft? I thought the only 48s available were ide's
(might have the letters wrong). I have heard of 50mm side draft webers,
but as far as I know they ceased production like 25 years ago. Not sure
on this one, and would appreciate anyone shedding light on this. the
su's or strombergs arent drastically bigger (overall side) than the
weber. The manifold(with carbs) is here, you are welcome to borrow it to
see it it will fit.
The oil injection works via a rod
> connected to the carby which moves respectively to the throttle position.
> The weber carby is an ideal setup as the throttle can work from one side of
> it's shaft and the oil injection rod can work directly off the other side if
> the carb is mounted in the correct position. Not sure as to how easy this
> setup would work with twin SU's.
you can get longer throtle shafts for them (new) this is usually done,
and then there are is a spring steel linkage that can join the two from
the left of one carb to the right of the other - so they rotate as one
shaft (the spring steel has a little bit of give to allow for minute
misalignments which could lead to premature shaft wear and worse still
the throttles binding and sticking open. If you then followed this , on
the opposite side of both these carbs, thae one that doesnt have the
accelerator linkage/cable, you could use another longer than std
throttle shaft, and mount the oil valve control to it. I the long run
just weigh up the pros and cons, space, cost and ease of fine tuning. If
your guy has experience with the weber, and not with the strombergs and
SUs or vice versa, then this would have to be a big consideration. From
what you have posted, it would be a fair commnet that they guy has lots
of experience with this sort of combination, and would know which is
best, and I bet he would know the pros and cons, even with regard to
price, and would be honest about it.
> Your even a fellow torana owner:-).
I don't suppose you know anyone with a good lc/lj 2 door shell?
I have located one and it is at the panel shop, and has been for 3
months. My fault for saying that I would rather wait a while longer for
a good job than to get a rushed job with corners cut to make a deadline.
Considering the trouble I went to to find a good shell, I am seriously
considering getting another to put in storage)
> Ok, to give you the rundown, I can get a complete 13BT import engine
> conversion including gearbox, new microtech m4 computer, new fuel pump,
> surge tank, fuel lines, custom turbo manifold, increased boost, intake
> manifold modification, front mounted intercooler, mandrel piping, fitting
> and dyno tunning and 300hp at the engine for $4500 drive in drive out.
How much power does your mechanic estimate (or guarantee) the 12A with a
draw through turbo would make? and for how much?
City
> people are paying between $6000-$7000 for the same thing. So basically want
> I'm saying is no matter what I'm not spending anywhere near that. I'm
> already forking out $1200 for a modified gearbox, heavier tailshaft,
what gearbox are you planning on using?
> Looks like I'm going to leave it for now and try and find a 48mm weber, I
> haven't tried that hard yet. I know of a few places in bendigo I can try.
this is admittedly a long shot but try tate philip (automotive or
engineering - cant recall the complete name). He was involved in the
LJ's that raced back in the day. I read that peter brocks LJ at one time
have three 50mm webers - bolted to the triple stromberg manifold with
one barrel on each blocked off. I doubt that these particular items wont
be around, but if perhaps he could give you a lead since they must have
sourced them from somewhere
John McKenzie
John McKenzie
> >> >only be an issue without the proper filters - and they arent something
> >> >you should scrimp on.
> >>
> >> And what was wrong with three layers of stockings I ask you??? It stopped
> >> everything till I got it a filter. And the noise... grin factor.
> >
> >
> >you know the turbo spools up much faster since I removed that big rock
> >that was stuck in the compressor wheel
>
> There was a rock in there?
perhaps I should have put a smiley at the end I was just joking.
Shit there was no hole in the stockings. I
> checked every day it went out. I was pretty paranoid (despite how I act) The
> first time it started it had the stockings on.
I am using a K&N filter (one of three I had on a triple SUs on a holden
6)
I have made use of another one to make a breather where the oil fill
hole is in the rocker cover - a necessity since the breather hose going
to the manifold is no longer there
> Then it got a filter. Never
> changed pitch the whole time I had it?
so far if anything we tits up in the motor, we wouldnt know, its hard to
hear anything above the open exhaust, and the two idiots in the front
seats flying up the street yelling viking war cries.
oh except when the um engine died
> could that have spat something up (just wondering now)
in all seriousness, it is flawless.
John McKenzie
Shaddow Edge
John McKenzie wrote in message <3AF2A7...@alphalink.com.au>...
>>
>> There was a rock in there?
>
>perhaps I should have put a smiley at the end I was just joking.
Man that was cruel. My heart stop thinking you got something that was
flawed. GRRRRR! :)
>
>so far if anything we tits up in the motor, we wouldnt know, its hard to
>hear anything above the open exhaust, and the two idiots in the front
>seats flying up the street yelling viking war cries.
Oh the memories. Except add carby blowing fuel (that was a blow through
system first up) into the open exhaust no bonnet or anything and a little
flame thrower out the back of the turbo. HUGE GRIN FACTOR. One question,
when everything was open and off on my car it shook like some street racer
with an oversized camn in it. Did/does yours? Exhuast on and it stopped. I
was a little miffed.
>
>
> oh except when the um engine died
>> could that have spat something up (just wondering now)
>
>in all seriousness, it is flawless.
Thank god. Don't ever do that to me again. :)
Shaddow
John McKenzie
>
> Man that was cruel. My heart stop thinking you got something that was
> flawed. GRRRRR! :)
well the boost guage you gave - and I should point out to anyone
else reading this that Stephen gave it to me for nothing - bit the dust.
a couple of power runs and it started spinning a lottery wheel and read
whatever it wanted. after that, even withy the carb bonnet off so no
boost, it read up to 10 lbs. One thing I have changed, which way have
been the reason the wastegate was doing its own thing, is to plug the
wastegate actuator port on teh compressore housing, and run this hose
from the manifold. maybe under some conditions, the venturi effect that
it may have been subjected to in its original location could have
affected the pressure seen in the hose to the actuator.
> Oh the memories. Except add carby blowing fuel (that was a blow through
> system first up) into the open exhaust no bonnet or anything and a little
> flame thrower out the back of the turbo. HUGE GRIN FACTOR.
One time, I had to move a charger up teh drive way (up hill) it had no
carby on it, but I was too lazy to push it uphill. so I put it in
reverse and cranked it over on the starter. the steel fuel line was just
in front of the manifold carb hole.... the line allowed fuel to be
dumped straight into the manifold, and with no carb, it was like full
throttle open. the car fired into life, and launched backwards up the
driveway. I clicked instantly what had happened, but I was still too
lazy to stop and push, so let it roar up the driveway and killed the
ignition in the street. n for whatever reason, just before this it had a
backfire in the manifold so then I had an underbonnet fire, extinguisher
to the rescue.....my family are jinxed with car fires. I had one on the
corolla (bugger all damage though). My mum came home from the shops one
day when I was around 6. the car was almost completely gutted by fire.
It seems that the windscreen was on the right angle, that is set fire to
a few matches that fell out of the box on the seat - it was either this,
or possibly that they rubbed against the box as my mum got out of the
car to go to the shop. I guess we will never know the reason. She got
back to her car and someone had put a brick through the window and was
hosing the fire out. it was so stuffed, that she had to rub a small area
of windscreen to be able to see - it was covered in soot.
One question,
> when everything was open and off on my car it shook like some street racer
> with an oversized camn in it. Did/does yours?
With around 1 meter of ex pipe after the turbo, and no muffler, it is
louder than most cars at idle, and a full song, but nowhere near as loud
as a car with an open exhaust (non turbo). the motor idles and runs so
smoothly - with a holley no less, that most people would just think its
a stocky with a small hole in the muffler. we were planning on putting
WRX killer as a rear window sticker, but we figured either the WRX owner
would think its a joke and not race, or suspect its true nature, and not
race. We have considered gemini killer, since it is more likely that a
gemini driver would think that we were just overconfident and arrogant
and take the bait.
John McKenzie
Shaddow Edge
John McKenzie wrote in message <3AF3B7...@alphalink.com.au>...
>Shaddow Edge wrote:
>>
>
>> Man that was cruel. My heart stop thinking you got something that was
>> flawed. GRRRRR! :)
>
>well the boost guage you gave - and I should point out to anyone
>else reading this that Stephen gave it to me for nothing - bit the dust.
>a couple of power runs and it started spinning a lottery wheel and read
>whatever it wanted. after that, even withy the carb bonnet off so no
>boost, it read up to 10 lbs. One thing I have changed, which way have
>been the reason the wastegate was doing its own thing, is to plug the
>wastegate actuator port on teh compressore housing, and run this hose
>from the manifold. maybe under some conditions, the venturi effect that
>it may have been subjected to in its original location could have
>affected the pressure seen in the hose to the actuator.
I blame australia post. Least you got a couple runs out of it lol.
>
>> Oh the memories. Except add carby blowing fuel (that was a blow through
>> system first up) into the open exhaust no bonnet or anything and a little
>> flame thrower out the back of the turbo. HUGE GRIN FACTOR.
>
>
>One time, I had to move a charger up teh drive way (up hill) it had no
>carby on it, but I was too lazy to push it uphill. so I put it in
>reverse and cranked it over on the starter. the steel fuel line was just
>in front of the manifold carb hole.... the line allowed fuel to be
>dumped straight into the manifold, and with no carb, it was like full
>throttle open. the car fired into life, and launched backwards up the
>driveway. I clicked instantly what had happened, but I was still too
>lazy to stop and push, so let it roar up the driveway and killed the
>ignition in the street. n for whatever reason, just before this it had a
>backfire in the manifold so then I had an underbonnet fire, extinguisher
>to the rescue.....my family are jinxed with car fires. I had one on the
>corolla (bugger all damage though). My mum came home from the shops one
>day when I was around 6. the car was almost completely gutted by fire.
>It seems that the windscreen was on the right angle, that is set fire to
>a few matches that fell out of the box on the seat - it was either this,
>or possibly that they rubbed against the box as my mum got out of the
>car to go to the shop. I guess we will never know the reason. She got
>back to her car and someone had put a brick through the window and was
>hosing the fire out. it was so stuffed, that she had to rub a small area
>of windscreen to be able to see - it was covered in soot.
Please stay away from my cars.
>
>
> One question,
>> when everything was open and off on my car it shook like some street
racer
>> with an oversized camn in it. Did/does yours?
>
>With around 1 meter of ex pipe after the turbo, and no muffler, it is
>louder than most cars at idle, and a full song, but nowhere near as loud
>as a car with an open exhaust (non turbo). the motor idles and runs so
>smoothly - with a holley no less, that most people would just think its
>a stocky with a small hole in the muffler. we were planning on putting
>WRX killer as a rear window sticker, but we figured either the WRX owner
>would think its a joke and not race, or suspect its true nature, and not
>race. We have considered gemini killer, since it is more likely that a
>gemini driver would think that we were just overconfident and arrogant
>and take the bait.
how about just put a sticker on the back that says "Forced" nothing else
added. Some wouldn't understand and others would be lining up to see what it
could do.
Shaddow
Wight
Shaddow Edge <shadd...@kooee.com.au> wrote in message
news:3af3...@news.iprimus.com.au...
We have considered gemini killer, since it is more likely that a
> >gemini driver would think that we were just overconfident and arrogant
> >and take the bait.
> Shaddow
>
Nevo
> Nevo wrote:
> My 12A actually makes power to almost 8000rpm. Ideally he believes
> > the 48mm weber is the perfect setup and the SU's would be about the
> > equivalent of using a 45mm weber which he believes does make a
difference.
>
> how much BHP are you chasing? the twin strombergs are probably good for
> 300. A lot of people spin shit about the old holden garret kits. The
> limitations were the shithouse head/port design of the holden, combined
> with a too small turbo (exhaust housing and even compressor as
> supplied). So most of the kits, were making around 250-280. One of the
> best things in terms of single improvement was changing the compressor
> housing/wheel and also the exhaust. A lot of people claim more power
> (even up to 400 bhp) from twin strombergs, but I would wave the bullshit
> flag at those sort of claims.
There was an LJ torana in Street Machine a few years ago claiming 400bhp
from the setup you just mentioned. Actual proof of this power wasn't shown
though. If I was to really sort out the current setup with the n/a 12A I've
seen them produce a tad over 200hp at the engine, mines more realistically
around the 175hp mark depending on how you calculate rear wheel horse power
driveline loss. That's from a mild extend port, mild exhuast porting,
tweaking of the factory 4 barrel carby, bit of home port matching of the
intake manifold, large perry extractors and a 2.5inch straight through
exhaust. Just how much of a gain can be obtained from the turbo, not sure.
It may not be that much considering the engine doesn't have the lower
compression that the factory turbo engines do.With the exhaust turbo and
intake all coming from the one side of the engine heat may be a drama. What
are you thoughts on this? The holden setups you've worked with are obviously
off the same nature lacking a crossflow head design. Did you rebuild the
engine with lower compression, obviously intercooling can't play a part,
unless there was some sort of water injection or methanol?
>
> > So ideally at this stage I'm trying to find a 48mm side draft at this
time.
>
> What 48 weber is side draft? I thought the only 48s available were ide's
> (might have the letters wrong). I have heard of 50mm side draft webers,
> but as far as I know they ceased production like 25 years ago. Not sure
> on this one, and would appreciate anyone shedding light on this. the
> su's or strombergs arent drastically bigger (overall side) than the
> weber. The manifold(with carbs) is here, you are welcome to borrow it to
> see it it will fit.
You may be correct, my knowledge on webers isn't fantastic, I'll quiz him
further on this one.
> The oil injection works via a rod
> > connected to the carby which moves respectively to the throttle
position.
> > The weber carby is an ideal setup as the throttle can work from one side
of
> > it's shaft and the oil injection rod can work directly off the other
side if
> > the carb is mounted in the correct position. Not sure as to how easy
this
> > setup would work with twin SU's.
>
> you can get longer throtle shafts for them (new) this is usually done,
> and then there are is a spring steel linkage that can join the two from
> the left of one carb to the right of the other - so they rotate as one
> shaft (the spring steel has a little bit of give to allow for minute
> misalignments which could lead to premature shaft wear and worse still
> the throttles binding and sticking open. If you then followed this , on
> the opposite side of both these carbs, thae one that doesnt have the
> accelerator linkage/cable, you could use another longer than std
> throttle shaft, and mount the oil valve control to it. I the long run
Yes, sounds feasible. As long as there's some way to control the injection
system then it's a practical option. The rod itself doesn't require alot of
movement to travel to fully open, either way if any problems were to be
encountered I'm sure they'd be the similar no matter which carb setup was
used.
> just weigh up the pros and cons, space, cost and ease of fine tuning. If
> your guy has experience with the weber, and not with the strombergs and
> SUs or vice versa, then this would have to be a big consideration. From
> what you have posted, it would be a fair commnet that they guy has lots
> of experience with this sort of combination, and would know which is
> best, and I bet he would know the pros and cons, even with regard to
> price, and would be honest about it.
Yes, this is true. Ultimately he says the 13BT is the ideal setup but is of
course outweighed by cost. Next in line he believe the sides draft weber is
the best option and the one he's used most in the past and is very
experienced with. Although I do have my quesitons regarding the 48 ide etc
for him. He's mentioned the pro's and cons of such systems and it really
becomes a consideration to me. As it stands the current setup I have is very
reliable and nice to drive. It has a very effective choke system, runs
smoothly and is very reliable.
To vier off track a little the factory choke system is a very interesting
item indeed. You pull the choke out and it's electronically held in that
position and typically would hold the rotary at 2000rpm during warm up. The
choke then automatically disengares itself when the engine reaches a
signifcant operating temperature and you hear and see the choke knob on the
dash go thump as the solidnoid holding it realises and it pops back in.
Anyways, back to the topic, he seems to believe that this reliability can
only be matched by the EFI 13BT setup. At the same time he said a draw
through weber can be made to run very well, but at the end of the day isn't
comparable to my current setup or the 13BT in terms of trouble free
driveablilty. This brings me back to the question of how well can it be made
to run, or in this case, is the guy that will be doing the tunning good
enough to make it run as i'd expect. I guess I just have to take a gamble
with him based on prior experience.
a fellow torana owner:-).
>
> I don't suppose you know anyone with a good lc/lj 2 door shell?
> I have located one and it is at the panel shop, and has been for 3
> months. My fault for saying that I would rather wait a while longer for
> a good job than to get a rushed job with corners cut to make a deadline.
> Considering the trouble I went to to find a good shell, I am seriously
> considering getting another to put in storage)
Yeah, there's two old grannies around here with cars I'd be buying if I ever
saw a for sale in the window. One with an LJ two door that looks like it
just left the facotry and the other with a HG ( I think ) two door monaro
that's in similar condition. I can see the day when they finally update and
the salesman gives them $500 trade in while rubbing his hands together and
sniggering to himself.
> > Ok, to give you the rundown, I can get a complete 13BT import engine
> > conversion including gearbox, new microtech m4 computer, new fuel pump,
> > surge tank, fuel lines, custom turbo manifold, increased boost, intake
> > manifold modification, front mounted intercooler, mandrel piping,
fitting
> > and dyno tunning and 300hp at the engine for $4500 drive in drive out.
>
> How much power does your mechanic estimate (or guarantee) the 12A with a
> draw through turbo would make? and for how much?
This is where things become interesting, he beleives between 200-220
reliable hp at the engine with that setup. Makes me wonder if it's all
worthwhile or do I continue with the N/A setup, until the budget allows for
the 13BT.
> City
> > people are paying between $6000-$7000 for the same thing. So basically
want
> > I'm saying is no matter what I'm not spending anywhere near that. I'm
> > already forking out $1200 for a modified gearbox, heavier tailshaft,
>
> what gearbox are you planning on using?
It's going to be a Toyota Corona 5 spd. Don't laugh;-) Their a very popular
choice with rotaries. My mechanic makes an alloy adapter plate to mount the
box to an rx7 bell housing, I'll be fabricating a cross memeber and getting
the local tail shalft mob to tack a corona yoke onto one end of the
tailshaft.
> > Looks like I'm going to leave it for now and try and find a 48mm weber,
I
> > haven't tried that hard yet. I know of a few places in bendigo I can
try.
>
> this is admittedly a long shot but try tate philip (automotive or
> engineering - cant recall the complete name). He was involved in the
> LJ's that raced back in the day. I read that peter brocks LJ at one time
> have three 50mm webers - bolted to the triple stromberg manifold with
> one barrel on each blocked off. I doubt that these particular items wont
> be around, but if perhaps he could give you a lead since they must have
> sourced them from somewhere
Most interesting, I'll keep it all in mind. Makes for an interesting
conversation either way. This message is getting a little out of hand,
taking too long to type the damn thing:-)
Cheers,
Nevo
Oz1
>"John McKenzie" <jm...@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message
>news:3AF2A5...@alphalink.com.au...
>> Nevo wrote:
>> My 12A actually makes power to almost 8000rpm. Ideally he believes
>> > the 48mm weber is the perfect setup and the SU's would be about the
>> > equivalent of using a 45mm weber which he believes does make a
>difference.
Dellorto do a 48mm DHLA maybe that's the confusion.
Oz
Shaddow Edge
Shaddow
Wight wrote in message <3af5...@nap-ns1.netconnect.net.au>...
Wight
Shaddow Edge <shadd...@kooee.com.au> wrote in message
news:3af6...@news.iprimus.com.au...
Wight
Nevo <k...@netcon.net.au> wrote in message
news:3af6...@news.iprimus.com.au...
I was reading a weber book this morning and although as Oz1 posted, there is
a 48DHLA, there might also be a 48DCOE as well, I cant remember, might have
just been the dellorto.
>
> Yes, this is true. Ultimately he says the 13BT is the ideal setup but is
of
> course outweighed by cost. Next in line he believe the sides draft weber
is
> the best option and the one he's used most in the past and is very
> experienced with. Although I do have my quesitons regarding the 48 ide etc
> for him. He's mentioned the pro's and cons of such systems and it really
> becomes a consideration to me. As it stands the current setup I have is
very
> reliable and nice to drive. It has a very effective choke system, runs
> smoothly and is very reliable.
>
You should suggest to him the prospect of blowing through a 34/34
downdraught weber off a XE/XF falcon, they would have more than adequate
flow, mechanical secondaries, good choke (although a properly tuned carby
doesn't even need a choke), you just have to make an airbox to seal against
the lid of the carby (easily done) and then you can run an intercooler as
well. You can even run a blow off valve with a this setup. Should be good
for 300+ horsepower with the right turbo, what size are you going to use by
the way?
Its a more efficient set up, you dont have the problem of carb icing and
with the right manifold/plenum design, it should give as good as factory
mixture distribution. This is a big thing that you will loose out on with
the draw through setup. If he can tune a sidedraught weber, then he will
easily be able to tune a downdraught. They work on exaclty the same
principle, have all the same tunibility options (except emulsion tubes
aren't easily available) but you just tune with main and air corrector jets
anyway. And without an intercooler, you can still run water/methanol
injection.
> To vier off track a little the factory choke system is a very interesting
> item indeed. You pull the choke out and it's electronically held in that
> position and typically would hold the rotary at 2000rpm during warm up.
The
> choke then automatically disengares itself when the engine reaches a
> signifcant operating temperature and you hear and see the choke knob on
the
> dash go thump as the solidnoid holding it realises and it pops back in.
>
> Anyways, back to the topic, he seems to believe that this reliability can
> only be matched by the EFI 13BT setup. At the same time he said a draw
> through weber can be made to run very well, but at the end of the day
isn't
> comparable to my current setup or the 13BT in terms of trouble free
> driveablilty. This brings me back to the question of how well can it be
made
> to run, or in this case, is the guy that will be doing the tunning good
> enough to make it run as i'd expect. I guess I just have to take a gamble
> with him based on prior experience.
>
Stop worrying, it'll be awesome either way, just go get it
done..............whoosh!
> This is where things become interesting, he beleives between 200-220
> reliable hp at the engine with that setup. Makes me wonder if it's all
> worthwhile or do I continue with the N/A setup, until the budget allows
for
> the 13BT.
You should be able to get much more than that, once again, with the right
size turbo, if you want a low rpm zip-box that spools up quicker than you
can plant your foot, then 200's probably all you'll make.
> > > Looks like I'm going to leave it for now and try and find a 48mm
weber, I
> > > haven't tried that hard yet. I know of a few places in bendigo I can
> try.
> >
Did you consider a 45 with big chokes, like 40-42mm. Easier than finding a
48!
> Nevo
>
>
>
>
>
Shaddow Edge
Shaddow
Wight wrote in message <3af6...@nap-ns1.netconnect.net.au>...
John McKenzie
>
> I cant wait till I see my next corrola!!!!
any chance you are in melbourne?
John McKenzie
> There was an LJ torana in Street Machine a few years ago claiming 400bhp
> from the setup you just mentioned. Actual proof of this power wasn't shown
> though. If I was to really sort out the current setup with the n/a 12A I've
> seen them produce a tad over 200hp at the engine, mines more realistically
> around the 175hp mark depending on how you calculate rear wheel horse power
> driveline loss.
let say the above is spot on... 250 would be possible wihout question.
You would just be hovering around double digit boost (<10lbs). This is a
reasonably conservative estimate
> It may not be that much considering the engine doesn't have the lower
> compression that the factory turbo engines do.
lately a lot of people have been going overboard with compression.
you don't lost that much response by going lower - in a holden at least.
I really don't see the point in street car. If you do things
conservatively with regard to compression, you have a lot more room for
stuff ups with mixture and overboosting. How much would it cost to go
lower in compression? I don't have the slightest idea as to prices for
rotary stuff. I recal when one year of wrx STIs came out, thefre were
rumours of them melting pistons. people hypothesised that perhaps they
werent chipped to suit AUS fuel. Whatever the case may be, if a big
dollar car can do this, then it would make sense to err on the side of
caution. Going lower on compression wont kill you but may well save an
unecessary rebuild.
Apart from the drawthrough/blowthrough thing, the main difference
between shadow edges corolla and the one I have is the compression
ratio. He ran std (and had good reasons to - cost, work involved etc)
compression which is around 9:1 We are running 7.6:1 - and considered
going lower but head gasket sealing may be a problem with this. So far
it has held up ok, but time will tell.
With the exhaust turbo and
> intake all coming from the one side of the engine heat may be a drama. What
> are you thoughts on this?
my thoughts are do what you can - heat shielding can be made of scrap
sheetmetal. Although wrapping your exhaust in that asbestos tape will
cause less heat, and more power (more heat kept in pipes) I am told that
it causes the pipes to be eaten up by the extra heat. no personal
experience here.
The holden setups you've worked with are obviously
> off the same nature lacking a crossflow head design. Did you rebuild the
> engine with lower compression, obviously intercooling can't play a part,
> unless there was some sort of water injection or methanol?
I have been as low as 6.8:1 the current motor is 8:1 It has been run
like this withotu a turbo. the plan was to go a little lower with boost
and run it on lpg. I have run water injection, and it was pretty
agricultural by modern standards - instead of a spraying nozzle, it was
just a fitting with a .035 orfice - so it sprayed a jet of water - on
the strombergs it was pointed at one of the needles, on the holley it
was pointed at the centre of one of the primary barrels. It worked. not
much more to say on that.
Believe it or not, someone on a list I was on had a draw through setup
with an intercooler. I hope they never drive it anywhere near me.
nyways, back to the topic, he seems to believe that this reliability can
> only be matched by the EFI 13BT setup. At the same time he said a draw
> through weber can be made to run very well, but at the end of the day isn't
> comparable to my current setup or the 13BT in terms of trouble free
> driveablilty.
how much of this is due to the difference in compression ratio?
Don't get me wrong I agree with the above, but it doesnt rule out a much
cheaper, and not necessarily unreliable carb option.
de
> Yeah, there's two old grannies around here with cars I'd be buying if I ever
> saw a for sale in the window. One with an LJ two door that looks like it
address please, I wooud be happy to visit and make a serious offer.
> How much power does your mechanic estimate (or guarantee) the 12A
with a
> > draw through turbo would make? and for how much?
>
> This is where things become interesting, he beleives between 200-220
> reliable hp at the engine with that setup.
above you were saying around 175-200 NA? only 20 more with a turbo? Is
this with some sort of really low boost, standard compression option? If
this is the case, I would be looking into lowering the compression
ratio. big time. Is there any chance he is trying to push the more
expensive option. Jeez, its not unreaonable to expect anywhere from
50-100 percent increase in power (that represents about each end of the
realistic spectrum for a street car ). That represents 10-15%. doesnt
quite add up.
John McKenzie
vinc...@clubashfield.com.au
I have recently installed a draw through turbo setup on my standard Mitsubishi Sigma, using the standard gear off an original sigma turbo. The car is setup with a standard 2.0L engine, T04 turbo, two stromberg carbies CD175, standard non turbo dissy, standard non turbo spark plugs, tial wastage and standard mechanical fuel pump. The car is running about 8psi but looking to change the spring to lower it to 5 psi. I'm not after massive power but a nice car to drive with a little more power than a standard 2.0L. I have been having a few problems and was after any advice, Firstly the car has a massive flat spot, secondly the car is running lean as the spark plugs are white and lastly the car pings at high revs and high boost. Any knowledge about the setup would be grateful and if anyone has knowledge on stromberg carbie that also would be great because everyone i speak to is recommending changing the carbies to weber.
Thanks in advance.
Clocky
I would even have expected to hear of in 2017.
jonz@ nothere.com
The thread is 16yrs old tho. ;)
Noddy
tuning manual. It's quite old, but everything you want to know can be
found within it's pages:
> https://www.triumphwedgeowners.org/uploads/3/0/4/2/3042952/_zenith_stromberg_factory_tuning_manual_-_complete.pdf
If this post is genuine, then I'm surprised the engine is still together
considering that the standard 2 litre Sigma engine had a higher static
compression ratio than the turbo version, and the pinging you hear is
likely to be the engine screaming in agony as it teeters on the edge of
self destruction.
If you're going to make adjustments, make one at a time and then test so
you know what's affecting what. If you need to adjust the carbs, follow
the instructions in the book and do nothing else before you test the car
to see what effect the changes have made
If you want my advice, the first thing I'd be doing is changing the
spark plugs. The standard plug for an Astron is a BP6ES, and if ask me
that's way too hot for something making 8lbs of boost. The factory turbo
plug was one range colder with a BP7ES, and I'd even be thinking about
trying a BP8ES for shits and giggles just to see how it likes it. If
they carbon up heavily, then drop back to a 7 and see how it improves.
If the plugs don't go some way to sorting your problems, then I'd look
at the carbs next and make sure your mixture settings are within reason.
Your plugs will tell you, but only if they're within cooee of the right
temperature range.
I'd also make sure your ignition timing is on the money, and you're
pulling all of your advance in under 3000rpm.
Sounds to me like you need to look at your plugs, you need to look at
your boost, and you need to look at your fuel. But most of all you need
to look at why you'd want to stuff around with this thing when a 10 year
old Corolla would snot it senseless in every way and be 10 times more
reliable.
It's your money Ralph.
Oh, and just to clue you in, any moment now a bloke named "Xenolith"
will be along to give you an incredibly long winded and totally
irrelevant rant about the theory of engine operation which will do
absolutely jack shit for you, but make *him* feel fantastic :)
--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.
Xeno
than show off your Google prowess but made *you* feel fantastic? Nah, I
couldn't be bothered commenting on the original post since it doesn't
seem genuine. To comment on a point of yours however, the only way a 10
year old Corolla would snot a *real* 4G63T senseless would be in the
reliability stakes. The OP doesn't even have that, just an abortion of a
4G63. There is enough in the original post to indicate the OP hasn't a
clue and your Google skills will not be able to assist him one iota.
--
Xeno
First they ignore you,
Then they ridicule you,
Then they fight you,
Then you win.
Mahatma Ghandi
Clocky
Clocky
Still, here it is in 2017.
Noddy
>> I'd also make sure your ignition timing is on the money, and you're
>> pulling all of your advance in under 3000rpm.
>>
>> Sounds to me like you need to look at your plugs, you need to look at
>> your boost, and you need to look at your fuel.
>
> Oh look at you go you Google thing... :-)
regular gig now?
vinc...@clubashfield.com.au
Thanks for the tuning manual.....
I have ordered colder plugs and an electronic fuel pump. I will also cut down a spare spring to lower the boost to see if that makes a difference.
I will keep you posted on the results.
Thanks
Clocky
> On 28/02/17 2:56 AM, Clocky wrote:
>
>>> I'd also make sure your ignition timing is on the money, and you're
>>> pulling all of your advance in under 3000rpm.
>>>
>>> Sounds to me like you need to look at your plugs, you need to look at
>>> your boost, and you need to look at your fuel.
>>
>> Oh look at you go you Google thing... :-)
>
> Do you ever have any thing useful to add
Clocky
haven't done so already
http://www.sigma-galant.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3531&sid=a7332e648a8d2455fe6b9d4f53637107
or
https://tinyurl.com/jg3amd4
Noddy
Oh, and seriously, drive a Corolla. You'll be amazed :)
Noddy
>>>> Sounds to me like you need to look at your plugs, you need to look at
>>>> your boost, and you need to look at your fuel.
>>>
>>> Oh look at you go you Google thing... :-)
>>
>> Do you ever have any thing useful to add
>
> Obviously.
Carry on with your chest beating, Mr Important.
Xeno
> On 28/02/2017 6:04 AM, vinc...@clubashfield.com.au wrote:
>> Yes i am 100% genuine....
>
> In that case you might want to head over to the forums here if you
> haven't done so already
>
> http://www.sigma-galant.com/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=3531&sid=a7332e648a8d2455fe6b9d4f53637107
>
>
> or
>
> https://tinyurl.com/jg3amd4
>
*relevant* experience.
>
>> Thanks for the tuning manual.....
>> I have ordered colder plugs and an electronic fuel pump. I will also
>> cut down a spare spring to lower the boost to see if that makes a
>> difference.
>>
>> I will keep you posted on the results.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>
D Walford
to understand, he must enjoy a challenge:-)
--
Daryl
Clocky
"Noddy" <m...@home.com> wrote in message news:o92co6$1oo$2...@dont-email.me...
>
>>>>> Sounds to me like you need to look at your plugs, you need to look at
>>>>> your boost, and you need to look at your fuel.
>>>>
>>>> Oh look at you go you Google thing... :-)
>>>
>>> Do you ever have any thing useful to add
>>
>> Obviously.
>
> As usual, I must blink and miss them and I dare say I'm not the only one.
>
> Carry on with your chest beating, Mr Important.
>
Noddy
>> Good luck with it.
>>
>> Oh, and seriously, drive a Corolla. You'll be amazed :)
>>
>>
> LOL, agree, why anyone would waste their time on a Sigma its difficult
> to understand, he must enjoy a challenge:-)
"performance car", and why anyone would want to throw money at one today
seems a bit odd.
Takes all kinds to make the world go around I suppose. Some people might
think that fucking around with old Fords is a waste of time too, but
there's clearly something wrong with those cunts :)
Noddy
>> As usual, I must blink and miss them and I dare say I'm not the only one.
>
> Quick, reach for help.
notes on random cars in order to justify his existence.
Clocky
Clocky
> On 28/02/17 12:47 PM, Clocky wrote:
>
>>> As usual, I must blink and miss them and I dare say I'm not the only
>>> one.
>>
>> Quick, reach for help.
>
> I don't need to pal.
D Walford
that:-)
--
Daryl
D Walford
He might of had all the bits lying around so nothing much to lose to see
if he could make it work.
--
Daryl
Noddy
Is it possible for you to be any more ridiculous?
Noddy
>> Takes all kinds to make the world go around I suppose. Some people might
>> think that fucking around with old Fords is a waste of time too, but
>> there's clearly something wrong with those cunts :)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> LOL.
> He might of had all the bits lying around so nothing much to lose to see
> if he could make it work.
Clocky
vinc...@clubashfield.com.au
Nothing to lose but time
Noddy
> 100% correct.... everything was in the shed and the car was given to me.
> Nothing to lose but time
Jeßus
wrote:
>100% correct.... everything was in the shed and the car was given to me.
>Nothing to lose but time
Jeßus
>vinc...@clubashfield.com.au wrote:
>
>> 100% correct.... everything was in the shed and the car was given to me.
>> Nothing to lose but time
>
>
>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vm9oLzLwwDs
I suspect that isn't a stock standard Sigma.
Clocky
> On 28/02/17 1:10 PM, Clocky wrote:
>> On 28/02/2017 9:58 AM, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 28/02/17 12:47 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>>
>>>>> As usual, I must blink and miss them and I dare say I'm not the only
>>>>> one.
>>>>
>>>> Quick, reach for help.
>>>
>>> I don't need to pal.
>>
>> You feel compelled to.
>
> Know what I'm *feeling* now, do you?
different?
Noddy
>>> You feel compelled to.
>>
>> Know what I'm *feeling* now, do you?
>
> You're a narcissist and you do it all the time - why should today be any
> different?