Bi-tron Products
Paul Williams
lubricants that are claimed to significantly reduce engine wear, friction
and improve fuel consumption. Also they have a product that prevents tyres
from going flat when punctured. Pls let me know your experiences.
PsYcHo
Snake oil,don't bother
Psycho
John Harvey
wrote:
>Has anyone heard of Bi-tron products ? They distribute a range of special
>lubricants that are claimed to significantly reduce engine wear, friction
>and improve fuel consumption. Also they have a product that prevents tyres
>from going flat when punctured. Pls let me know your experiences.
>
Judging by the frequency of the question - the snake oil merchants
must be busy!
Beware of putting liquids in tyres as it makes them impossible to
balance - any snake oil salesman that tells you otherwise is either a
liar or has a poor grasp of rotational dynamics, but I suppose if that
wasn't the case then he wouldn't be a snake oil salesman.
John H
Greg Stewart
Email me for details of my experence if you want, I have told my story here
too many times!!!!
Greg.
- My correct email address is, gregjs (at) ozemail (dot) com (dot) au
Paul Williams wrote:
> Has anyone heard of Bi-tron products ? They distribute a range of special
> lubricants that are claimed to significantly reduce engine wear, friction
> and improve fuel consumption. Also they have a product that prevents tyres
> from going flat when punctured. Pls let me know your experiences.
>
> Paul
> pa...@profess.com.au
Arnie
>Has anyone heard of Bi-tron products ? They distribute a range of special
>lubricants that are claimed to significantly reduce engine wear, friction
>and improve fuel consumption. Also they have a product that prevents tyres
>from going flat when punctured. Pls let me know your experiences.
Bitron's engine additives use chlorine as the "magic" ingredient. Chlorine
is very corrosive!
Arnie
D Walford
tyre sealing liquid into the tyres of all the cars they sell as a sales
gimmick. I've had no tyre balance problems.
Daryl
John Harvey wrote:
>
> On Thu, 3 Dec 1998 09:50:30 +1100, "Paul Williams" <p...@smart.net.au>
> wrote:
>
> >Has anyone heard of Bi-tron products ? They distribute a range of special
> >lubricants that are claimed to significantly reduce engine wear, friction
> >and improve fuel consumption. Also they have a product that prevents tyres
> >from going flat when punctured. Pls let me know your experiences.
> >
>
call...@comports.com
> Bitron's engine additives use chlorine as the "magic" ingredient. Chlorine
> is very corrosive!
Chlorine ?
Who told you THAT ? I never knew Chlorine was such a good lubricant...
Interestingly enough, Bi-Tron products provide incredible protection to your
engine from seizure: - After "bitronizing" my Ford Falcon XD (1982), I did
notice a slight improvement in the smoothness of the running of the engine
and the clunk in the auto- transmission gone. I could not measure the
improvement in fuel economy, but there was slightly better acceleration from
a standing start when compared to before adding the bitron stuff to the
engine, auto-transmission and diff.
Driving from Cairns to the Gold Coast, with a planned stop at Rockhampton, I
noticed a puff of smoke coming from under the bonnet about 65km out of
Mackay, outside temperature a humid 33 deg celsius. As my temperature gauge
on the Falcon takes the temp off the engine block and not the water, I
noticed only slight upwards movement of the temp gauge needle, and kept
driving at around 110km/h to 130km/h keeping a close eye on the temp gauge. A
further 200km of driving and the temp gauge needle edged only a notch higher,
I didn't think much of it and kept on driving the remainder to Rockhampton.
Pulling into our overnight stop at the David Motel at North Rockhampton, it
was time to check under the bonnet to see that fluid levels were correct.
There was no water in the radiator, and as it turned out, the bottom radiator
hose had burst with a rip almost two inches long. That must have explained
the puff of smoke. The car did not overheat for around 300km of driving at
high speed on a hot day, I'm sure that any car without water in the radiator
would overheat in next to no time, but not in this case. Whatever is in the
bi-tron products, it works , and I will keep on using the products!
----ROGER--->
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
Eric Sawabahdi
>driving at around 110km/h to 130km/h keeping a close eye on the temp gauge. A
>further 200km of driving and the temp gauge needle edged only a notch higher,
>I didn't think much of it and kept on driving the remainder to Rockhampton.
>
>hose had burst with a rip almost two inches long. That must have explained
>the puff of smoke. The car did not overheat for around 300km of driving at
>high speed on a hot day, I'm sure that any car without water in the radiator
>would overheat in next to no time, but not in this case.
I think the primary ingredient in this product is bullshit (the same
ingredient you have used in your post).
If the engine had no water it would have failed in a spectacular
fashion rather quickly. Just how is an engine supposed to rid itself
of the heat of the combustion process (let alone friction) without an
operational heat exchanger (i.e radiator). The engine would rapidly
reach a temperature sufficient to blister the paint on your bonnet,
vaporize fuel in your fuel lines, and generally cause a major fire.
What utter bullshit.
ERIC
John Harvey
>There was no water in the radiator, and as it turned out, the bottom radiator
>hose had burst with a rip almost two inches long. That must have explained
>the puff of smoke. The car did not overheat for around 300km of driving at
>high speed on a hot day, I'm sure that any car without water in the radiator
>would overheat in next to no time, but not in this case. Whatever is in the
>bi-tron products, it works , and I will keep on using the products!
>
>----ROGER--->
Transported by aliens with the engine stopped perhaps, probably didn't
use any fuel either!!!
It ain't the bi-tron mate - it's the hallucinogenic substance.
John H
forg
...
> Interestingly enough, Bi-Tron products provide incredible protection to your
> engine from seizure: - After "bitronizing" my Ford Falcon XD (1982), I did
> notice a slight improvement in the smoothness of the running of the engine
> and the clunk in the auto- transmission gone.
> Driving from Cairns to the Gold Coast, with a planned stop at Rockhampton, I
> noticed a puff of smoke coming from under the bonnet about 65km out of
> Mackay
> There was no water in the radiator, and as it turned out, the bottom radiator
> hose had burst with a rip almost two inches long. That must have explained
> the puff of smoke. The car did not overheat for around 300km of driving at
> high speed on a hot day
I think you either have some Bi-Tron to sell, or you are delusional.
Put simply, what you have described here is impossible. Were you aware
that the burning of fuel creates heat? Or does Bi-Tron magically convert
the combustion process to some other process that we are unaware of on
this planet?
--
Forg! -DUH#6=- (Y1)
"Flamin' heck; another Volvo Driver!"
"...
Another Turnip Boy;
A Forg stuck in the road
..."
[Greenday]
Arnie
>
>> Bitron's engine additives use chlorine as the "magic" ingredient.
Chlorine
>> is very corrosive!
>
>Chlorine ?
>Who told you THAT ?
The manufacturer.
"Chlorinated parrafin" - so they come up with the "petroleum based" tag and
then Bitron distributors then misinterpret that as being purely petroleum.
I have the email and fax from them. They even admit that the oil will test
positive for halogens!
>I never knew Chlorine was such a good lubricant...
It's actually good for extreme pressure and boundary layer protection, but
it will slowly eat your engine. You need to change the oil more frequently
to reduce it's harm - 2 steps forward and 3 steps back really.
Chlorine is commonly used in oil additives - eg. Duralube and Prolong.
Arnie
Jack Stands
Id say thats "Busted badly"
Guess we wont be seeing a lot of Bitron man around these parts.
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Hanns Paul
that was treated. It has however saved quite a few that had lost coolant. I
taxies it has increased engine life by around 200 000 kms. plus it DOES save a
lot of fuel!
Arnie schrieb:
call...@comports.com
eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Sawabahdi) wrote:
>
> I think the primary ingredient in this product is bullshit (the same
> ingredient you have used in your post).
>
> If the engine had no water it would have failed in a spectacular
> fashion rather quickly. Just how is an engine supposed to rid itself
> of the heat of the combustion process (let alone friction) without an
> operational heat exchanger (i.e radiator). The engine would rapidly
> reach a temperature sufficient to blister the paint on your bonnet,
> vaporize fuel in your fuel lines, and generally cause a major fire.
>
> What utter bullshit.
>
> ERIC
>
metal it is supposed to protect is too hot? The oil dissipates away (moves
away) from the area of extreme temperature.
I thought precisely what you are saying: Utter bull-shit. I ignored claims of
several Bi-Tron distributors until a friend of mine rocked up on my doorstep
with a trailer, which had a Holden 202 engine mounted on it. Several
demonstrations similar to those on the Bi-Tron product video showing a Dodge
engine, which involved the removal of the radiator and sump showing that an
engine will continue for quite some time at normal operating temperatures
without water or oil in the sump.
My favourite test that gets a retail sale of Bi-Tron each and every time
involves a stainless steel plate, a clamp to hold same in place, then you put
a droplet of regular oil, eg: Valvoline or Castrol GTX, onto the steel plate,
then get the oxy-torch and heat the living daylights out of the bottom of the
stainless steel plate right underneath the splotch of regular oil. At some
point, the temperature reaches a point at which the oil dissipates AWAY from
the overheated area. Exactly the same as in your engine when your coolant is
gone, and friction gets the better of things and the engine gets hotter and
hotter and hotter.
The situation is different when we mix 5% bi-tron and the rest Valvoline or
Castrol GTX. Heat the stainless steel plate again with the Oxy-torch, but whoa
what happens when you overheat the area right underneath the splotch of oil
mixed with bi-tron: It contracts and moves towards the area of extreme heat.
In your engine, with a loss of coolant, this could well mean the difference
between seizure of your engine (and an expensive repair bill), or a marginally
overheated engine at the worst (with no resultant damage).
Eric, want to put the product to the test? Money back guarantee in case of
bullshit !
Regards
---ROGER---
call...@comports.com
bullshit !!
call...@comports.com
>
> I think the primary ingredient in this product is bullshit (the same
> ingredient you have used in your post).
>
> If the engine had no water it would have failed in a spectacular
> fashion rather quickly. ... blah, blah, blah, crap, crap, crap-on... etc
> What utter bullshit.
As per another post about Bi-Tron products:
"in my experience (2 years) it has not had any negatve effects on any engine
that was treated. It has however saved quite a few that had lost coolant. I
taxies it has increased engine life by around 200 000 kms. plus it DOES save a
lot of fuel!"
Eric, try the stuff for yourself, with the money-back guarantee and
$5'000'000 public liability insurance policy on bi-tron products as peace of
mind, or stop waffling on. Put your money where your mouth is, if you're
interested, email em or call me....
--->ROGER<---
call...@comports.com
>
> Transported by aliens with the engine stopped perhaps, probably didn't
> use any fuel either!!!
>
> It ain't the bi-tron mate - it's the hallucinogenic substance.
>
That's all right mate, for every intelligent person there's half a dozen
brainless twits who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Fuel
and oil additives work, just about all of them do, however some work better
than others, not too many years ago, Slick50 was the best thing under the
sun, come to think of it, a 486DX2/66 CPU-based PC was state of the art back
then, now Bi-Tron appears to be one of the best products of its kind on the
market, and the PC industry has moved along in leaps and bounds in that time
too...`.... wonder how many people thought the processing power of todays
PII/300Mhz was impossible when the 486DX2/66 was state-of-the art ??
Might have been your aliens again, mate !
John Harvey
>In article <368c1794...@news.onthenet.com.au>, eric...@hotmail.com
>(Eric Sawabahdi) wrote (without knowing 'diddly-squat'):
>
>>
>> I think the primary ingredient in this product is bullshit (the same
>> ingredient you have used in your post).
>>
>> If the engine had no water it would have failed in a spectacular
>> fashion rather quickly. ... blah, blah, blah, crap, crap, crap-on... etc
And you're a lying maggot!
If you're going to quote him at least have the decency not to alter
what Eric actually said.
Somehow I don't think the vital ingredient has changed - it's still
bullshit - like your credibility.
John H
forg
> >
> > I think the primary ingredient in this product is bullshit (the same
> > ingredient you have used in your post).
> >
> > If the engine had no water it would have failed in a spectacular
> > of the heat of the combustion process (let alone friction) without an
> > operational heat exchanger (i.e radiator). The engine would rapidly
> > reach a temperature sufficient to blister the paint on your bonnet,
> > vaporize fuel in your fuel lines, and generally cause a major fire.
> That's what YOU think! WHAT happens to oil when the surface temperature of the
> metal it is supposed to protect is too hot? The oil dissipates away (moves
> away) from the area of extreme temperature.
[Snip irrelevant example of BiTron being atracted to heat]
...
Your story means nothing. The engine doesn't sieze purely because the
oil moves away from the metal surfaces. If you drive from Brisbane to
Sydney or whatever the example was, without dissipating any heat at all,
you ain't going to keep your engine running regardless of how good your
engine additive is. Things would have to melt, no doubt about it; your
engine is very well lubricated when it is a liquid itself.
forg
...
> Eric, try the stuff for yourself, with the money-back guarantee and
> $5'000'000 public liability insurance policy on bi-tron products as peace of
> mind, or stop waffling on. Put your money where your mouth is, if you're
> interested, email em or call me....
It's hard to prove whether snake oil has caused damage to your engine.
Just because I sell you water in a 600ml bottle at room temperatute for
$50 by saying it is better than the free stuff in the filtered cooler
next to you doesn't mean you should buy my $50 water. Sure, I'll give
you a total refund if my water hurts you!!
call...@comports.com
fo...@zip.com.au wrote:
[ snip ]
>
> Your story means nothing. The engine doesn't sieze purely because the
> oil moves away from the metal surfaces. If you drive from Brisbane to
> Sydney or whatever the example was, without dissipating any heat at all,
> you ain't going to keep your engine running regardless of how good your
> engine additive is. Things would have to melt, no doubt about it; your
> engine is very well lubricated when it is a liquid itself.
>
of driving on open road, approaching Rockhampton.
I was extremely skeptical, just as you are, when I heard of the promises made
about Bi-Tron products. Actually I thought the whole thing was mostly
bullshit. That was until a fellow stall-holder at Sydney's Paddy's Markets,
whom I got to know very well over several years of trading there myself until
October 1997 when we moved to Cairns. He tried to get me into his Amway
business several times, but failed in that attempt.
Anyhow, he rocked up with an engine mounted on a trailer, and did the same
demonstration on his 202 engine than N/A/T/O did on one of their Video tapes
promoting the products (which I thought was bullshit). The engine had 5%
Bi-Tron in its oil, ran for around 20 minutes at around 2500 RPM without the
radiator attached with no apparent ill effects. You might think this is a
load of bull. It aint. I've seen it, so have many others. Then he drained the
sump, removed it as well as the rocker cover, and again started the engine,
ran it at around 2500 RPM, occasionally revving it up to 3000 RPM, with no
apparent ill effects on the engine.
That convinced me that there was some merit in the Bi-Tron claims. Fact is
that I drove 65km after busting the bottom radiator hose of my Ford XD Falcon
into Rockhampton, with the temperature gauge (with an engine block sender
rather than a water temp sender) showing only a marginal increase in
temperature whilst driving at highway speeds (100km/h to 120km/h). Slowing
into the 80km/h and 60km/h zones of north Rockhampton, the temp gauge did
move upwards, and when we pulled into the David Motel at Nth Rockhampton to
check-in for a nights' stay, the temp gauge was up noticably, but nowhere
near the 'red'. A check underneath the bonnet did not reveal classic signs of
overheating, such as extreme heat and paint peeling off the engine block.
Getting another bottom hose from the local auto spares shop, and replacing
the busted one, re-filling and bleeding the cooling system, everything was
back to normal again.
Bi-Tron *WILL* provide protection for your engine in case of coolant or oil
pressure loss. There are enough testimonials floating around out there to
substantiate what you call utter bull-shit.
I've put some of the testimonials up on my website so that you can have a
look for yourself. I've sold quite a lot of the stuff over the year or so I
have become a distributor, and believe me, it ain't bullshit! You might not
be able to drive 800km from Brisbane to Sydney without oil in the sump, or
water in the radiator, actually any long drive, and this is not recommended.
However you should be able to get to the next service station or rest-stop
with shade, so that you can check things out before driving further.
Some testimonials can be found at http://www.rtsnet.nq.nu/bitron
Worth a look at.
Regards
ROGER A STOCKBURGER
Arnie
[snip]
>Eric, want to put the product to the test? Money back guarantee in case of
>bullshit !
Money back is not good enough. I want engine back guarantee!
Arnie
The M_Netter
snip.
>
>As per another post about Bi-Tron products:
>"in my experience (2 years) it has not had any negatve effects on any
engine
>that was treated.
Okeydokey...this is an advert, right??? So....you are hardly likely to
mention anything NEGATIVE about your superior product, are you?
> It has however saved quite a few that had lost coolant.
How come alI these engines using BiTron loose their coolant? I drove an old
VC Commy for 10 years or so and it never "lost its coolant"...or its
oil...at least not faster than a drip he he...
>taxies it has increased engine life by around 200 000 kms. plus it DOES
save a
>lot of fuel!"
Taxis huh? Taxis are not really an indicative test bed "Lots"....??? What is
meant by "Lots"
>
>Eric, try the stuff for yourself, with the money-back guarantee and
>$5'000'000 public liability insurance
Yeah and I can imagine that it is a real cakewalk trying to make any claim
against it....
>policy on bi-tron products as peace of
>mind, or stop waffling on. Put your money where your mouth is,
Err...hangon...dont you mean "Put your money in my wallet"? Have you ever
heard of Caveat Emptor???
See, here is the rub. While the product may have some benefitial affects, it
may also have some undesireable ones. I for one am not going to throw it in
my engine just "to see what happens"...good maintenance with good oils will
have to do. So unfortunately this sort of advertising dissappears into the
noise of voices of those who would relieve you of your hard earned.
Sorry
M_Netter
Andrew Janke
: In article <368c1794...@news.onthenet.com.au>,
: eric...@hotmail.com (Eric Sawabahdi) wrote:
: : <Chomp Bitron is good stuff>
: <Chomp Not it's not>
:
: Eric, want to put the product to the test? Money back guarantee in case of
: bullshit !
Ok I'll put it to the test. Drive your car to my place, (address supplied if
interested) then we'll wait a while, take off the sump, rip out the radiator and
go for a drive, No wait I'll be generous, we'll just drain the oil and the coolant.
I assume you have Bi-tron in your car?
If you can makes it home, I will personally promote Bi-Tron along side you
outside the Brisbane Motor Show.
rote -=DUH!#16=- (Y2)
Rotes Projects http://student.uq.edu.au/~s324570/index.html
aus.cars FAQ http://www.clubduh.com/index.html
additions to the FAQ to aus....@clubduh.com
John Harvey
>In article <36AB17FD...@zip.com.au>,
> fo...@zip.com.au wrote:
>[ snip ]
>>
>> Your story means nothing. The engine doesn't sieze purely because the
>> oil moves away from the metal surfaces. If you drive from Brisbane to
>> Sydney or whatever the example was, without dissipating any heat at all,
>> you ain't going to keep your engine running regardless of how good your
>> engine additive is. Things would have to melt, no doubt about it; your
>> engine is very well lubricated when it is a liquid itself.
>>
>
>Anyhow, he rocked up with an engine mounted on a trailer, and did the same
>demonstration on his 202 engine than N/A/T/O did on one of their Video tapes
>promoting the products (which I thought was bullshit). The engine had 5%
>Bi-Tron in its oil, ran for around 20 minutes at around 2500 RPM without the
>radiator attached with no apparent ill effects. You might think this is a
>load of bull. It aint. I've seen it, so have many others. Then he drained the
>sump, removed it as well as the rocker cover, and again started the engine,
>ran it at around 2500 RPM, occasionally revving it up to 3000 RPM, with no
>apparent ill effects on the engine.
>
You've still proved nothing.
Try it on a dyno with the engine loaded, just for a laugh. Oh and
don't forget to run a control (that's the one without the snake oil).
John H
John Harvey
>call...@comports.com wrote:
>...
>> Eric, try the stuff for yourself, with the money-back guarantee and
>> $5'000'000 public liability insurance policy on bi-tron products as peace of
>> mind, or stop waffling on. Put your money where your mouth is, if you're
>> interested, email em or call me....
>...
>
>It's hard to prove whether snake oil has caused damage to your engine.
And even if you did the $5M public liability isn't likely to help much
as it'll be the same policy every business has (including my own) as
protection against being sued for killing or injuring someone.
All Mr. Squat-Didly is offering is a money back guarantee if it stuffs
your engine.
Lies and deception are what's being peddled here!
John H
Nathan Wong
>That's all right mate, for every intelligent person there's half a dozen
>brainless twits who have absolutely no idea what they're talking about. Fuel
>and oil additives work, just about all of them do, however some work better
Just about all of them? What a load of crap. Best fuel you could get
was the old Formula One rocket fuels, which needed special lines etc
so they didnt melt em with all the chemicals in them. Why dont you
sell us some of that instead? Best oil is 100% synthetic, and theres
no additive you can add to it to make it any better.
>than others, not too many years ago, Slick50 was the best thing under the
Slick 50 has NEVER been the best thing under the sun. Maybe the best
thing out of someone's arse, but never under the sun. Slick 50
was/is/shall remain to be utter crap.
>then, now Bi-Tron appears to be one of the best products of its kind on the
APPEARS to be. But it isn't. How about you give me a cheque for $5000
to rebuildmy engine back to spec after I drive around with nothing but
BiTron in it?
Your HQ engine test is bullshit because the engine aint loaded, and
you have NO idea what damage was caused. You says it had not apparent
ill-effects. What about in a months time when the wear caused by
running it without oil etc means the engine blows a hole through the
block?
How about you take up Andrew's offer and drive to his place with no
oil or coolant, but only BiTron. Then drive home and then tear down
the engine and show us how theres no wear whatsoever.
--
Nathan Wong http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors
- Super Touring - Alfa Romeo -
Alfa...@pobox.com - Club Cars - Formula One -
- V8Supercars - CART -
call...@comports.com
johnh...@bigpond.com (John Harvey) wrote:
>
> You've still proved nothing.
>
> Try it on a dyno with the engine loaded, just for a laugh. Oh and
> don't forget to run a control (that's the one without the snake oil).
>
> John H
>
Just for a laugh:- http://www.rtsnet.nq.nu/bitron
A few testimonials, but got a dyno test on the bottom of the abovementioned
page. You can stop laughing, the stuff really works. Every dyno test result we
have here proves conclusively that there is some increase in engine power as a
result of BiTron being added to the engine oil.
You see, Bi-Tron improves lubrication and decreases friction, this is why most
people notice their engine running a little smoother, and many experience an
improvement in fuel economy to some degree.
No crap, no bull-shit, no snake oil. The stuff works and that's the bottom
line. If you feel it doesn't work, just return the empty bottles to the
company here in Australia, and they will send you a refund.
...And it will *NOT* cause damage to your engine. Actually, if it did that,
consumer affairs would have banned the stuff a long time ago.
---ROGER---
call...@comports.com
"The M_Netter" <leader of the Australian Skeptics society> contributed :
> snip.
Some testimonials and one of many dyno-tunes, http://www.rtsnet.nq.nu/bitron
is interesting reading.
> >
> >As per another post about Bi-Tron products:
> >"in my experience (2 years) it has not had any negatve effects on any
> engine
> >that was treated.
>
> Okeydokey...this is an advert, right??? So....you are hardly likely to
> mention anything NEGATIVE about your superior product, are you?
An 'informercial' might be a more apt description, but so far I've got
nothing negative to say, perhaps $100 for a 'value pack' consisting of Engine
Treatment additive, 2*4*6 metal treatment (for your power steering,
transmission and diff) and the Petrol (or Diesel) conditioner, sounds like a
lot of money, I would prefer if they charged $49.95 for the value pack, I'd
sell around five times as many of them !!
>
> > It has however saved quite a few that had lost coolant.
>
> How come alI these engines using BiTron loose their coolant? I drove an old
> VC Commy for 10 years or so and it never "lost its coolant"...or its
> oil...at least not faster than a drip he he...
>
You do something that most people do not: It's called *MAINTAINING* your
vehicle. You'd be surprised how people cut corners on their car maintenance -
most cars on the road are more than 10 years old, a friend of mine who is a
fully qualified mechanic at Jardine Shipping here in Cairns confirms my
assumption that an incredible number of people don't even check oil and water
regularly, and then scratch their heads when their car overheats on the side
of the road. Too many people do not get regular schedules servicing done,
which includes inspection and replacing of old radiator and heater hoses.
Often, it is those same people with older cars who purchase Bi-Tron, and "get
saved" by Bi-Tron in some degree, including not getting flat tyres anymore of
they got the tyre sealant in their tyres, not even a big nail will stop you !
> >taxies it has increased engine life by around 200 000 kms. plus it DOES
> save a
> >lot of fuel!"
>
> Taxis huh? Taxis are not really an indicative test bed "Lots"....??? What is
> meant by "Lots"
> >
Dunno, not my post. I do know a few taxis using Bi-Tron, as well as a major
bus company here in Queensland who confirm the running cost of their fleet of
(Diesel) buses has decreased considerable following the treatment of their
fleet with Bi-Tron products.
> >Eric, try the stuff for yourself, with the money-back guarantee and
> >$5'000'000 public liability insurance
>
> Yeah and I can imagine that it is a real cakewalk trying to make any claim
> against it....
>
Yeah, mate. A real cakewalk indeed! You've got to write a short paragraph
explaining that you 'installed' the Bi-Tron products as per the instructions
that came with it, and in your opinion the stuff does nothing you can notice,
and you would like a refund because it does not work as promised, ie:
smoother running engine, improved fuel economy. Then don't forget to put your
name and address on there, plus include the empty bottles, and send them
back. One of those red 'parcel post' bags from the post office is probably
the most convenient and cost-effective way. Hmmm. Simple!
> >policy on bi-tron products as peace of
> >mind, or stop waffling on. Put your money where your mouth is,
>
> Err...hangon...dont you mean "Put your money in my wallet"? Have you ever
> heard of Caveat Emptor???
>
> See, here is the rub. While the product may have some benefitial affects, it
> may also have some undesireable ones.
Name one. ...and provide some form of proof!
Bi-Tron has been around for years. Why then, if the stuff is supposed to be
corrosive (a load of crap), has some mechanic pulled apart an engine, and
provided some evidence that unusual corrosion that could possibly be caused by
Bi-Tron has occured?
Over the year and a bit since I've been a distributor of these products, I've
managed to convince what I would consider the biggest skeptics to try the
products, so far all I've had is praises and a couple of apologies with 'hmm,
the stuff ain't bad after all...'..
> I for one am not going to throw it in
> my engine just "to see what happens"...
Nobody will be forcing you to...
What will happen is that your engine will run smoother because of the improved
lubrication, and subsequently you will get improved fuel economy. How much
depends on your car, generally the older cars show a better improvement than,
for example, a VS commodore with a hi-tech ecotech engine, which are pretty
damn good by themselves, but still run better with a Bi-Tron oil treatment
thrown in...
> good maintenance with good oils will have to do.
As long as it's GOOD oils, such as major brand names like Helix, Castrol GTX,
Valvoline, Pennzoil, etc. *NOT* Home-Brand from Franklins or Woolworths !!
You'll always be one step ahead by using Bi-Tron, however. If you care about
the environment we live in, then you'll be interested to know that one
side-effect from using Bi-Tron in your car is lower emissions (and again, we
can back this up with emission tests!).
Cheers!
ROGER
call...@comports.com
s32...@student.uq.edu.au (Andrew Janke) wrote:
>
> Ok I'll put it to the test. Drive your car to my place, (address supplied if
> interested) then we'll wait a while, take off the sump, rip out the radiator
and
> go for a drive, No wait I'll be generous, we'll just drain the oil and the
coolant.
> I assume you have Bi-tron in your car?
>
Already did that twice with the Falcon XD - Drained oil and water, took a
potential client for a drive from Clifton Beach to Smithfield shopping centre
and back again (round trip about 10km or so), with no apparent ill effects to
my car -a marginally higher engine temp, but nothing critical.
This is not a recommended way of demonstrating the product, although
effective. One should not drive around without coolant or oil, but in case of
emergency it can however save you from being stranded, by allowing you to
drive to the next service station, or shopping area, without overheating.
Although I'm not so sure, I wouldn't be surprised that there would be some
harm to the engine over time if I drained the oil and water and go for a spin
around the block a few times to prove my point (and that of Bi-Tron) to every
skeptic who says 'I don't believe the stuff works'.
The engine on the trailer demonstration, however, is excellent, and I am
looking at setting up a trailer setup like that, as well as a pressure tester
like on the NATO (Bi-TRON) video, to demonstrate that even under extreme
pressure, you simply cannot seize two metals (one is a lever pushing a metal
bar onto a rotating spindle, that can also pick up oil from a little sump),
whereas with Castrol, Valvoline, Pennzoil and other regular untreated
lubricants overheat and seize quite easily.
=----ROGER----=
frenzy
things to 'em and they will still survive unlike say a Nissan V-Spec GTR
engine. Short of blowing a piston out of the sidewall of the block (been
there done that) its a bit hard to really damage a Q.
If he wants to put his money where his mouth is I'll try the stuff on the
dyno in the HQ racer at 14:1 compression in the presence of my engine
builder, dyno tuner and himself. If it stuffs my engine he is only up for a
new $4,500 race engine. We'll then take it down to the creek for a Friday
practice run. The dyno and the test run on the track will prove any
performance gains. If its any good you can stick signage on the car for the
season.
Rob.
Nathan Wong wrote in message wrote:
>
>Your HQ engine test is bullshit because the engine aint loaded, and
>you have NO idea what damage was caused. You says it had not apparent
>ill-effects. What about in a months time when the wear caused by
>running it without oil etc means the engine blows a hole through the
>block?
Matthew McDonald
>In article <36d004ff....@news.bigpond.com>,
> johnh...@bigpond.com (John Harvey) wrote:
>>
>> You've still proved nothing.
>>
>> Try it on a dyno with the engine loaded, just for a laugh. Oh and
>> don't forget to run a control (that's the one without the snake oil).
>>
>> John H
>>
>Hey, John :
>Just for a laugh:- http://www.rtsnet.nq.nu/bitron
>A few testimonials, but got a dyno test on the bottom of the abovementioned
>page. You can stop laughing, the stuff really works. Every dyno test result we
>have here proves conclusively that there is some increase in engine power as a
>result of BiTron being added to the engine oil.
>You see, Bi-Tron improves lubrication and decreases friction, this is why most
>people notice their engine running a little smoother,
A few FAKE testimonials. Bullshit dyno tests.
>and many experience an
>>improvement in fuel economy to some degree.
You were quoting 5 to 20 % before with a power increase.
>No crap, no bull-shit, no snake oil. The stuff works and that's the bottom
>line. If you feel it doesn't work, just return the empty bottles to the
>company here in Australia, and they will send you a refund.
Total crap.
>...And it will *NOT* cause damage to your engine. Actually, if it did that,
>consumer affairs would have banned the stuff a long time ago.
Bullshit. The people who buy this are the sort of people who don't
even know that Consumer Affairs exists.
And how can the average consumers PROVE that it was the shit they
added the week before?
Regards
Matthew
--
____________________________________________________________
Matthew McDonald
Editor
MobileWorld http://www.mobileworld.org/
Gold Coast, Australia_____________________________________
Pete!
>In article <78gsht$bpv$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
> s32...@student.uq.edu.au (Andrew Janke) wrote:
>Already did that twice with the Falcon XD - Drained oil and water, took a
>potential client for a drive from Clifton Beach to Smithfield shopping centre
>and back again (round trip about 10km or so), with no apparent ill effects to
>my car -a marginally higher engine temp, but nothing critical.
>
>This is not a recommended way of demonstrating the product, although
>effective. One should not drive around without coolant or oil, but in case of
>emergency it can however save you from being stranded, by allowing you to
>drive to the next service station, or shopping area, without overheating.
A very conflicting statement here -
"One should not drive around without coolant or oil"
followed up by "allowing you to drive to the next service station, or shopping
area, without overheating"
Now which is it?
If it does let you make it to the next servo without damage then why can't you
drive around normally with the stuff without causing damage?
>The engine on the trailer demonstration, however, is excellent, and I am
>looking at setting up a trailer setup like that, as well as a pressure tester
>like on the NATO (Bi-TRON) video, to demonstrate that even under extreme
>pressure, you simply cannot seize two metals (one is a lever pushing a metal
>bar onto a rotating spindle, that can also pick up oil from a little sump),
>whereas with Castrol, Valvoline, Pennzoil and other regular untreated
>lubricants overheat and seize quite easily.
I don't see this a relevant test to an car engine because car engines don't
seize "quite easily" like they do in your demo.
Snake Oil may be good for this particular test but may not work quite as well
in an engine. Much like Auto Tranny Fluid is perfect for an auto gearbox but
its useless in an engine - likewise engine oil is just as useless in an
auto gearbox even though it can keep a modern engine from seizing.
This Community Service Announcement by
Pete! -=DUH#1=- (FM)
"Free and Qualified Flame Advice"
"Snake Oil 50 - stops your Flames from seizing"
Disgruntled Postal Workers of Australia
**** By Order of the Large Black Dog ***
Founding Member - Secret Society of Alt-Tabbers
Arnie
[snip]
>>The engine on the trailer demonstration, however, is excellent, and I am
>>looking at setting up a trailer setup like that, as well as a pressure
tester
>>like on the NATO (Bi-TRON) video, to demonstrate that even under extreme
>>pressure, you simply cannot seize two metals (one is a lever pushing a
metal
>>bar onto a rotating spindle, that can also pick up oil from a little
sump),
>>whereas with Castrol, Valvoline, Pennzoil and other regular untreated
>>lubricants overheat and seize quite easily.
>
>I don't see this a relevant test to an car engine because car engines don't
>seize "quite easily" like they do in your demo.
Hey Pete, I remember that you tried to seize a stuffed engine way back. You
tried it without oil and water, had the revs up, and it took quite a while
didn't it?
Arnie
Pete!
It was a 245 Hemi VG Val that had snapped the fan belt and holed the radiator
(does that when you repeatedly ram other cars with it) and we got it bogged.
The oil light had started coming as well so we decided to see how long it took
to die - In gear, spinning the rears and bogged up to the sills we got about
3-4 mins with the old hemi singing at an estimated 6,000 before it decided to
crack test a conrod.
Andrew Janke
: In article <78gsht$bpv$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
: s32...@student.uq.edu.au (Andrew Janke) wrote:
: >
: > Ok I'll put it to the test. Drive your car to my place, (address supplied if
: > interested) then we'll wait a while, take off the sump, rip out the radiator
: and
: > go for a drive, No wait I'll be generous, we'll just drain the oil and the
: coolant.
: > I assume you have Bi-tron in your car?
:
: Already did that twice with the Falcon XD - Drained oil and water, took a
: potential client for a drive from Clifton Beach to Smithfield shopping centre
: and back again (round trip about 10km or so), with no apparent ill effects to
: my car -a marginally higher engine temp, but nothing critical.
<Roger the doger Screams and leaps around on his left foot after discovering
a gaping hole in his right>
Higher engine temp? and how pray tell did you measure this if there was no
friggin coolant in the engine?
Lying prick of a snake oil salesman!
: This is not a recommended way of demonstrating the product, although
: effective. One should not drive around without coolant or oil, but in case of
: emergency it can however save you from being stranded, by allowing you to
: drive to the next service station, or shopping area, without overheating.
Whoa neddy! I didn't suggest this test, YOU did a few posts ago. Put your
lying mouth in my suburb and I'll record the results.
: The engine on the trailer demonstration, however, is excellent, and I am
: looking at setting up a trailer setup like that, as well as a pressure tester
: like on the NATO (Bi-TRON) video, to demonstrate that even under extreme
: pressure, you simply cannot seize two metals (one is a lever pushing a metal
: bar onto a rotating spindle, that can also pick up oil from a little sump),
: whereas with Castrol, Valvoline, Pennzoil and other regular untreated
: lubricants overheat and seize quite easily.
Just like the old Slick-50 demonstrators.. (It proves nothing) I have an
old one in the back of the shed that I found at a dump if you want it.....
SIDE NOTE
---------
Pick up oil from a little sump.. reminds me of the old old old chev engines
with no cross drilling in the crank :) (REAL old timers will remember this
along with having to align the lill oil squirters to hit that pickup thingo
on the bottom of the rods...)
=========
HINT:- They used to use a torque wrench for a lever to show just how much
'pressure' a product could withstand. Wot a crock of shite, a good idea you
say.....
Andrew Janke
: Pete! wrote ::
: >I don't see this a relevant test to an car engine because car engines don't
: >seize "quite easily" like they do in your demo.
:
: Hey Pete, I remember that you tried to seize a stuffed engine way back. You
: tried it without oil and water, had the revs up, and it took quite a while
: didn't it?
Reminds me of the engine blows (mainly VW's) at FF&R jamboree's :)
<brick on accelerator>
p.t.r.
>
> Already did that twice with the Falcon XD - Drained oil and water, took a
> potential client for a drive from Clifton Beach to Smithfield shopping centre
> and back again (round trip about 10km or so), with no apparent ill effects to
> my car -a marginally higher engine temp, but nothing critical.
>
How did you measure the engine temperature? If you drained the coolant,
the reading your getting from the gauge is entirely bullshit, or maybe
just your story.
-pete
Matthew McDonald
He used the special BiTron stick on temp gauge that came with his
dealer kit.
It sticks to the dash and measures the temperature of the engine
through the "Slick 50 Air to Teflon Interface".
The temperature reading was amazingly the same as the ambient
temperature! How's that for an awesome product, keeping the engine as
cool as the outside temperature!
Greg Stewart
I blew a radiator hose of a work EA Falcon wagon once, lost all of the coolant,
pulled over when I heard the noise, to find lots of water pouring onto the road, I
though I would try to make it the local Ford dealer, dumb idea at the time, the
Dealer was about 12km away through many traffic lights and heavy traffic, the car
made it, was fitted with 2 new hoses and refilled, the car still ran fine at least
for another 30,000km, when it was replaced.
Admittantly it still had oil, but this engine was already hot (working temp) when
it lost the coolant!!! And it had no Die-tron or Slack 50.
So if an EA Falcon can do 12km with no coolant, starting at working temp, I see no
reason why the XD couldn't do 10km with no coolant or oil from a cold start!!
call...@comports.com wrote:
> In article <78gsht$bpv$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au>,
> s32...@student.uq.edu.au (Andrew Janke) wrote:
> >
> > Ok I'll put it to the test. Drive your car to my place, (address supplied if
> > interested) then we'll wait a while, take off the sump, rip out the radiator
> and
> > go for a drive, No wait I'll be generous, we'll just drain the oil and the
> coolant.
> > I assume you have Bi-tron in your car?
> >
>
> Already did that twice with the Falcon XD - Drained oil and water, took a
> potential client for a drive from Clifton Beach to Smithfield shopping centre
> and back again (round trip about 10km or so), with no apparent ill effects to
> my car -a marginally higher engine temp, but nothing critical.
>
> This is not a recommended way of demonstrating the product, although
> effective. One should not drive around without coolant or oil, but in case of
> emergency it can however save you from being stranded, by allowing you to
> drive to the next service station, or shopping area, without overheating.
>
> Although I'm not so sure, I wouldn't be surprised that there would be some
> harm to the engine over time if I drained the oil and water and go for a spin
> around the block a few times to prove my point (and that of Bi-Tron) to every
> skeptic who says 'I don't believe the stuff works'.
>
> The engine on the trailer demonstration, however, is excellent, and I am
> looking at setting up a trailer setup like that, as well as a pressure tester
> like on the NATO (Bi-TRON) video, to demonstrate that even under extreme
> pressure, you simply cannot seize two metals (one is a lever pushing a metal
> bar onto a rotating spindle, that can also pick up oil from a little sump),
> whereas with Castrol, Valvoline, Pennzoil and other regular untreated
> lubricants overheat and seize quite easily.
>
> =----ROGER----=
>
> -----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
--
Greg Stewart
Correct Email address - gregjs 'at' ozemail 'dot' com 'dot' au
John Harvey
>Hey, John :
>Just for a laugh:-
Well I'm prepared to put my money where my mouth is, so here's my
offer to you!
In your earlier post to this NG (below) you claimed to have driven
your XD Falcon 300km at 110-130kph after complete loss of coolant.
What's your XD worth? $1...2...$3,000... - you name it.
Here's the deal...
1. You and I each post a certified bank cheque for what your car's
worth, plus self addressed envelope, to someone we all trust. Say
Forg, if he's willing.
2. You submit the name of a commercial chassis dyno operator in
Cairns, or anywhere else in Aust for that matter, who isn't involved
with Bi-tron Products, for this NG's approval.
3. You book the dyno for a mutually acceptable date, on which your XD
will be run continuously for up to 300km at 120kph with, let's say,
50kW at the rear wheels. It can have the manufacturer's recommended
oil fill (plus bitron of course) but with *no coolant* and no
modification to its cooling or lubrication systems, with the ambient
temp to be at least 33°C.
4. Since you mentioned Australian Skeptics Inc, of which I do happen
to be a member, I'll contact them and ask if they'll provide an
adjudicator and someone to check for sleight of hand. Any other
spectators will be welcome of course, including the TV crew.
5. If your car's still running at the end of 300km, Forg posts you
both cheques. If it shits itself they come to me. Naturally I'll
also require a before and after oil sample from your car's sump.
You just can't lose. If it doesn't make it you'll still collect under
Bi-tron's $5M public risk insurance just as you've intimated. If it
does make it the sales boost will be worth millions and I'll even
publicly apologise on this NG for calling you a charlatan and a lying
maggot.
John H
>Driving from Cairns to the Gold Coast, with a planned stop at Rockhampton, I
>noticed a puff of smoke coming from under the bonnet about 65km out of
>Mackay, outside temperature a humid 33 deg celsius. As my temperature gauge
>on the Falcon takes the temp off the engine block and not the water, I
>noticed only slight upwards movement of the temp gauge needle, and kept
>driving at around 110km/h to 130km/h keeping a close eye on the temp gauge. A
>further 200km of driving and the temp gauge needle edged only a notch higher,
>I didn't think much of it and kept on driving the remainder to Rockhampton.
>
>Pulling into our overnight stop at the David Motel at North Rockhampton, it
>was time to check under the bonnet to see that fluid levels were correct.
>There was no water in the radiator, and as it turned out, the bottom radiator
>hose had burst with a rip almost two inches long. That must have explained
>the puff of smoke. The car did not overheat for around 300km of driving at
>high speed on a hot day, I'm sure that any car without water in the radiator
>would overheat in next to no time, but not in this case. Whatever is in the
>bi-tron products, it works , and I will keep on using the products!
call...@comports.com
> >How did you measure the engine temperature? If you drained the coolant,
> >the reading your getting from the gauge is entirely bullshit, or maybe
> >just your story.
Engine block temperature from an engine block sender, so we are measuring the
actual temperature of the engine block, NOT the coolant.
-ROGER-
Cam!
:...And it will *NOT* cause damage to your engine. Actually, if it did that,
:consumer affairs would have banned the stuff a long time ago.
Ahh yes.
The old "It's not illegal (yet), so it must be OK" arguement.
You still haven't convinced me.
_________________________________________________________________________
Cam! lo...@rocketmail.com
Matthew McDonald
>
>> >How did you measure the engine temperature? If you drained the coolant,
>> >the reading your getting from the gauge is entirely bullshit, or maybe
>> >just your story.
>
>Engine block temperature from an engine block sender, so we are measuring the
>actual temperature of the engine block, NOT the coolant.
Why no response "Roger" to the post that I made with all the
information on Slick 50?
Do you really have no response? I guess this proves it, your product
is shit and you have no defense for the truth.
Peter McMillan
>Engine block temperature from an engine block sender, so we are measuring the
>actual temperature of the engine block, NOT the coolant.
Measuring the block temp is a bit of a waste of time though, isn't it?
The heat is generated in the combustion chambers, and conducted away
through the cooling jacket. You may as well have measured the
temperature of the frigging bumper bars. By the time the block told
you that you had a problem, the head would have been a molten mess
puddling at your feet.
Cheers,
Peter! -=DUH#14=- (Y1)
"What does this button do? Oops .... flames. RUN!!"
To email me, change .com in my address to .au
Miklos Kovacs
and no I am not tryign to make fun of anyone...just seriously curious
sorry if the questions have been answered before
call...@comports.com wrote in message <78el62$cst$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>That's what YOU think! WHAT happens to oil when the surface temperature of the
>metal it is supposed to protect is too hot? The oil dissipates away (moves
>away) from the area of extreme temperature.
-Umm isn't that why the oil circulates around your engine? you know so it coats
the thing over and over and doesn't have to worry about sitting in one spot too
long?
>I thought precisely what you are saying: Utter bull-shit. I ignored claims of
>several Bi-Tron distributors until a friend of mine rocked up on my doorstep
>with a trailer, which had a Holden 202 engine mounted on it. Several
>demonstrations similar to those on the Bi-Tron product video showing a Dodge
>engine, which involved the removal of the radiator and sump showing that an
>engine will continue for quite some time at normal operating temperatures
>without water or oil in the sump.
-Is this the same test where they run it for a minute or so then whack it with a
hose and go "Look water isn't stopping it"? If so wouldn't the blast with the
hose cool the engine sufficiently to start the test again? I notice door hinges
work for a while too before needing re-oiling....
>My favourite test that gets a retail sale of Bi-Tron each and every time
>involves a stainless steel plate, a clamp to hold same in place, then you put
>a droplet of regular oil, eg: Valvoline or Castrol GTX, onto the steel plate,
>then get the oxy-torch and heat the living daylights out of the bottom of the
>stainless steel plate right underneath the splotch of regular oil. At some
>point, the temperature reaches a point at which the oil dissipates AWAY from
>the overheated area.
-See question above...and just how hot does it get inside your engine? hotter
than a direct blast from an oxy torch for however many seconds? why stainless
steel? my engine sure isn't made of stainless steel, does stainless have any
benefits over cast iron in cooling or conenctration of heat? well the test works
for stainless steel so if I got a stainless steel engine you'd be the first guy
I call.....
how hot does the top of the plate have to be before the oil dissipates? does it
get that hot in an engine?
> Exactly the same as in your engine when your coolant is
>gone, and friction gets the better of things and the engine gets hotter and
>hotter and hotter.
-It would take some time though wouldn't it considering the oil is moving about
and not staying in one place?
Also I was wondering how quicly does a car lose it's coolant? Ok if you have a
head on and crack the radiator etc...or if you have a cracked hose you will lose
some water at a steady rate...but is it enough to get rid of all water? and what
happens once you have no coolant and run the engine? Does the temp gauge go up
or down(I mean there is little water temp to measure no?)..I don't know I have
never had the problem, so I am asking
>The situation is different when we mix 5% bi-tron and the rest Valvoline or
>Castrol GTX. Heat the stainless steel plate again with the Oxy-torch, but whoa
>what happens when you overheat the area right underneath the splotch of oil
>mixed with bi-tron: It contracts and moves towards the area of extreme heat.
-does rapid heating of oil cause it to move away faster than if it is put onto a
moderately warm plate to begin with?
One more thing.....oil...how much does oil contribute to the cooling of your
engine? anyone? since the sump is at the bottom I think it would be plenty cool
no? so oil could provide cooling in an emergency situation(however ineffective)
couldn't it?
Mik
Chris Lee
>>No crap, no bull-shit, no snake oil. The stuff works and that's the bottom
>>line. If you feel it doesn't work, just return the empty bottles to the
>>company here in Australia, and they will send you a refund.
>
>Total crap.
>
>>...And it will *NOT* cause damage to your engine. Actually, if it did
that,
>>consumer affairs would have banned the stuff a long time ago.
>
>Bullshit. The people who buy this are the sort of people who don't
>even know that Consumer Affairs exists.
>
>And how can the average consumers PROVE that it was the shit they
>added the week before?
What I've always wanted to know about this stuff is if its so damn good, why
the hell do they have to resort to a Multi-level marketing scheme to sell
it?
I'm certainly no engine mechanic and wouldn't know my way around the
inside of an engine from the inside of the fridge :) But the way I see it,
engine cooling is engine cooling. It's there for a reason, I have a
Temperature
gauge in the instrument cluster for an equally important reason.
If you have a cooling failure, then schmick engine oil or no engine oil,
its going to do damage. The guage should provide you with plenty of
warning that something is amiss, and its up to you to pull over and find
out what it is and get it fixed. Thats just the way I see it.
Besides, it seems to be aimed more for people who want to do
everything on the cheap. As far as I'm concerned nothing, absolutely
nothing, beats regular maintenace at the manufacturers intervals or even
earlier. They were the guys who built the engine, so they would know how
long it was designed to run between maintenance. Nothing lasts forever
and so its obvious parts are going to *have* to be renewed eventually.
If cars were like aviation where an inspection had to be made every 100
hours, and the engine overhauled roughly every 1400-1800 hours, or you
lost your licence or were grounded, we certainly wouldn't have so many
unreliable, unroadworthy shitbox's on the roads that need to be filled up
with
snake oils to keep em going when their cooling systems fail because they
couldn't be bothered spending a few dollars keeping things properly
maintained in the first place.
Chris
Chris Lee
<78n6pr$grr$1...@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>...
>-It would take some time though wouldn't it considering the oil is moving
about
>and not staying in one place?
>Also I was wondering how quicly does a car lose it's coolant? Ok if you
have a
>head on and crack the radiator etc...or if you have a cracked hose you will
lose
>some water at a steady rate...but is it enough to get rid of all water? and
what
>happens once you have no coolant and run the engine? Does the temp gauge go
up
>or down(I mean there is little water temp to measure no?)..I don't know I
have
>never had the problem, so I am asking
I'm quite sure the temp gauge goes up. We were towing our boat up the
gillies
range (I dunno what it would weigh, maybe 1000kg's?) with the VP Commodore
ute, with the usual 3.8ltr V6 and auto tranny. Turns out the water pump had
just
about shit itself, which seems to be a bit of a common problem, we didn't
know
at the time it was the problem anyway, and about half way up the range
the temperature guage was deadly close to full on Hot, I had never seen a
guage
that high before esp in Commodores which seem to go about half way,
sometimes
3/4 when stopped at lights for a while after a hard run.
We stopped, lucky near a creek, and opened the bonnet. Sure enough the surge
tank was just about bone dry, and after using a bottle lying around to fill
it up with
some creek water(tm) we were on our way after letting the engine cool down a
bit,
and the gauge didn't reach for the high again.
However I'm only assuming the surge tank has something to do with the level
of
coolant in the car? We didn't have to open up the radiator cap and fill it
or anything,
just the surge tank and it seemed to clear up the problem.
Took the ute in for a service shortly after and mechanic found the water
pump to
be the problem, and no more problems.
However just the other day I popped the bonnet on the VP to have a quick
look
around as it hasn't been run for about 4 - 5 weeks. I notice underneath
where
the coolant tube from the radiator connects to the engine, which I think
contains
the thermostat for the temperature guage, I'm quite sure its the inlet for
the
cooling to the engine anyway... there is a little puddle of green cooling
fluid
by the looks of it sitting underneath that on the engine, in the cross-flow
head
I think it is on the engine or something, I'm not too sure what I'm looking
at,
maybe I'll get out that gregorys manual and see what it says.
Could this be a problem? Even after being left for so long surely it
shouldn't be
able to leak out no matter what? Anyway, its booked in for a service next
week
so I'll tell the mechanic and let them figure out whats wrong.
Chris
ChrisG
>What I've always wanted to know about this stuff is if its so damn good,
why
>the hell do they have to resort to a Multi-level marketing scheme to sell
>it?
Exactly :-)
Chris
Miklos Kovacs
Chris Lee wrote in message <78oo16$bt0$1...@news.mel.aone.net.au>...
>What I've always wanted to know about this stuff is if its so damn good, why
>the hell do they have to resort to a Multi-level marketing scheme to sell it?
-While I am in no position to comment on the quality of the stuff(hey I have no
idea if it works and am still waiting for answers to my questions) I can
probably do a quick explanation as to why MLM is utilised...Hope it's not
considered too off topic but heck I am writing a report on MLM :)
Basically look at it this way.....(this is in no way indicative of how Bi-Tron
does it)
Ok say it costs me 50 cents to make a fake turd...No wait....car newsgroup
Ok it costs me $1 to make gear knobs, that is material and all costs etc(not
going into variable costs, break even point etc)
Now I can advertise like hell and spend money making people aware I have quality
gear knobs for sale for $25(hehe small mark up) and maybe get a few sales....it
costs me money and the result could make me bankrupt
OR
I could go and start an MLM whereby people sell my knobs(huhu) for $30 and give
them $5 for their effort....dude am I losing money? no...i'm not wasting it on
advertising etc and I have a bunch of psychos out there trying to get rid of my
knobs while I sit in my office and watch sales soar :) I don't have to make sure
people know abou the knobs...If the person in the MLM wants a sale they know
what to do and that is sell the damn product...Hey wow they could make $50 for
selling 10 knobs...whoopee...didn't cost me a cent and i'm sittin pretty on
plenty of sales....
The theory is good however the company image may suffer slightly due to
involvmenet in MLM(because the whole industry has gotten a bad rap) but hey i'm
in Hawaii in my new HQ, we have salespeople Australia wide selling knobs yet I
have no expenses of a company that has even one shop or employee
That is why MLM is used to offload products :) It's a lot cheaper and in cases
such as quesitonable products it's always easier to go "Hey we(the company) do
not make that claim, it was the distributor etc" which is how you avoid the
government Trade Practices place....not companies fault(read the fine print in
any distributorship agreement)
Mik
call...@comports.com
"Chris Lee" <leecj@-nospam-topaz.cqu.edu.au> waffled on:
> >>No crap, no bull-shit, no snake oil. The stuff works and that's the bottom
> >>line. If you feel it doesn't work, just return the empty bottles to the
> >>company here in Australia, and they will send you a refund.
> >
> >Total crap.
But they do, because if they do not, they are in breach of the (NSW) Fair
Trading Act, 1974, which carries heavy and severe penalties if breached. I
know because I once worked for a computer company who did not live up to
their promises. NB: I quit when I found out the boss was a crook.
> >Bullshit. The people who buy this are the sort of people who don't
> >even know that Consumer Affairs exists.
Crap. Just ask "The Fixer" (Sunday Mail), - compared to 10 years ago, there is
a very good community awareness of the existence of Consumer Affairs
departments in each state. When the 'magic' Laundry disk re-appeared on the
marketplace, consumer trade authorities around the country were flooded with
calls enquiring about whether this product had any merit.
Sorry, Chris,- there are not as many stupid people as you think there are,
there may be a tiny minority who are unaware of consumer trade laws and how to
complain, you've got a better change at finding an honest politician than you
have finding one of them.
> >
> >And how can the average consumers PROVE that it was the shit they
> >added the week before?
Coating a metal with a protective layer of oil cannot contribute to excessive
wear or breakdown of the metal, so there is nothing to prove as neither Bi-
Tron, Slick 50 or Castrol GTX Magnetic will make ANY contribution to the
failure of any component in your engine. Yet, N/A/T/O still has a $5'000'000
public liability insurance scheme just in case some legal eagle finds a legal
loophole to try to discredit the product.
> What I've always wanted to know about this stuff is if its so damn good, why
> the hell do they have to resort to a Multi-level marketing scheme to sell
> it?
Multi-Level marketing schemes, particularly those with a Binary structure (as
opposed to a breakaway like Amway) is the best form of product distribution
there is, it shifts the opportunity of making profit from retailers and large
corporations to individuals like you and me (or at least those who actually DO
want to make extra income).
>
> I'm certainly no engine mechanic and wouldn't know my way around the
> inside of an engine from the inside of the fridge :) But the way I see it,
> engine cooling is engine cooling. It's there for a reason, I have a
> Temperature gauge in the instrument cluster for an equally important reason.
>
> If you have a cooling failure, then schmick engine oil or no engine oil,
> its going to do damage. The guage should provide you with plenty of
> warning that something is amiss, and its up to you to pull over and find
> out what it is and get it fixed. Thats just the way I see it.
You see it from the wrong angle - extra protection is extra protection, and
many people have had their engine saved from damage caused by overheating due
to coolant loss or oil pressure loss (or oil loss).
> Besides, it seems to be aimed more for people who want to do
> everything on the cheap. As far as I'm concerned nothing, absolutely
> nothing, beats regular maintenace at the manufacturers intervals or even
> earlier. They were the guys who built the engine, so they would know how
> long it was designed to run between maintenance. Nothing lasts forever
> and so its obvious parts are going to *have* to be renewed eventually.
Correct, nothing beats regular maintenance. Bi-Tron has never been touted as
a cure-all for your engine, nor is it designed to replace scheduled
maintenance. Just like products with similar properties, such as Castrol GTX
Magnetic, Bi- Tron is an additive to your oil that coats metal components
with a thin layer of oil, giving extra protection for your engine when it's
running, as well as starting it from cold, when there is virtually no oil on
the moving components. Ever thought why Taxi engines often to 750'000km, even
1 million km or more on their engines? Not because they all use Bi-Tron, many
do, most still do not, but the reason why their engines last so long is
because they avoid turning off their engines when possible, because starting
your engine is a real killer.
> If cars were like aviation where an inspection had to be made every 100
> hours, and the engine overhauled roughly every 1400-1800 hours, or you
> lost your licence or were grounded, we certainly wouldn't have so many
> unreliable, unroadworthy shitbox's on the roads that need to be filled up
> with snake oils to keep em going when their cooling systems fail because they
> couldn't be bothered spending a few dollars keeping things properly
> maintained in the first place.
So what's wrong with a little extra protection then? The reason why there are
so many shitboxes out there which are badly maintained is because, at least
here in QLD, there are no annual roadworthy tests at registration renewal
time, unlike in NSW, for example. The only time a vehicle has to get a
roadworthy is when it;s sold. Just like we don;t have "p" plates here in the
Banana republic state, this explains why there are so many idiot drivers up
here who do not have the faintest idea on how to use a roundabout, etc.
---ROGER---
John Harvey
<leecj@-nospam-topaz.cqu.edu.au> wrote:
>What I've always wanted to know about this stuff is if its so damn good, why
>the hell do they have to resort to a Multi-level marketing scheme to sell
>it?
Could it possibly be because an unpaid MLM salesman is in reality a
customer. It's been claimed that less than 15% of global amway sales
are made to those who are not themselves amway distributors.
And I wonder how much bitron Mandrake needs to sell before he claims
his car, telephone, computer, etc as business losses - a couple of
doses maybe.
John H
call...@comports.com
"Miklos Kovacs" <mko...@mpx.com.au> wrote:
> -Umm isn't that why the oil circulates around your engine? you know so it
> coats > the thing over and over and doesn't have to worry about sitting in
> one spot too long?
Correct, however whan you switch off your engine, the oil runs away leaving
bare metal. When you re-start your engine (cold start), it takes a short time
for the oil to be pumped back onto the moving parts. This is why taxis
commonly get 750'000km and beyond on their engines because they stop the
engine only when really necessary, ie: refuelling time. (Most taxi cabs run
all day and all night on rotating driver shifts). Products such as Bi-Tron
mixed with conventional engine oil, and apparently Castrol GTX Magnetic
ensure that metal parts remain coated with a thin film of oil even when the
engine is switched off, left until it is cold, and re-started again, thus
providing protection to such a point that your engine will actually last
longer by using these kinds of products. Bi-Tron has several advantages over
Castrol GTX Magnetic in that Bi- Tron also have an additive that does the
same with other Lubricants in your car, namely diff oil, auto (and manual)
transmissions and power steering reservoirs. Plus they have a 2 stroke
treatment and fuel additive for both Diesel and Petrol engines which has
excellent cleansing and anti-corrosion and anti-fungal properties. Plus
Bi-Tron products are backed with a full 30-day money-back guarantee, should
you believe that the products did not perform as expected- ie: smoother
running engine, some improvement in fuel economy, due to the fact that the
engine is better lubricated, thus reducing friction (we put Bi-Tron into a
Mazda 626 1984 yesterday, one thing that was immediately noticed was that the
idle revs increased marginally after driving around the block a few times
after treatment, this was due to the improved lubricating caused by the
addition of 10% Bi-Tron to existing oil that was there to begin with.
>
> -Is this the same test where they run it for a minute or so then whack it
> with a hose and go "Look water isn't stopping it"? If so wouldn't the blast
> with the hose cool the engine sufficiently to start the test again? I notice
> door hinges work for a while too before needing re-oiling....
I wouldn't hit a hot engine with water from a hose, you could crack the
engine block, nasty thing that. A good test that proves the superior
lubricating properties of conventional oils with Bi-Tron added is the
cross-axis machine, which shows that the point of seizure with Bi-Tron
treated oils to be far higher than just the conventional oils, and by adding
water and even sand to the sump does not make much difference as to where
seizure will occur. Same with Penetrating Lubricant (Bi-Tron) compared to,
say, WD40.
>
> -See question above...and just how hot does it get inside your engine? hotter
> than a direct blast from an oxy torch for however many seconds? why stainless
> steel? my engine sure isn't made of stainless steel, does stainless have any
> benefits over cast iron in cooling or conenctration of heat? well the test
> works for stainless steel so if I got a stainless steel engine you'd be the
> first guy I call.....
Firstly, I use stainless steel because it looks good, and usually use a
stainless steel ruler, as I always have one handy, or a 2mm stainless steel
plate, depending on the situation of the demonstration. The stainless steel
ruler demo even works with a good cigarette lighter that throws a decent
flame! You could just as well use Aluminium (discolours and looks ugly quite
quickly), Mild Steel (corrodes in time, and looks ugly after a while), or the
BBQ plate (too heavy). :-)
> how hot does the top of the plate have to be before the oil dissipates? does
> it get that hot in an engine?
If I were using mild steel, it would be pretty close to becoming red-hot. I
don't know what the actual temperature would be, as I haven't got the
equipment to measure temperatures that high. It would get that hot in your
engine, but really only if there was some malfunction causing such extremes
of temperature, such as coolant loss and/or loss of oil/oil pressure.
Normally you would risk seizure of your engine in such circumstances if you
kept driving, because of the tendency for the oil to clear away from the
overheated areas, yet oils treated with Bi-Tron ensure that lubrication is
maintained even in the extremest of temperatures (within reason, it is not
recommended to drive on, ignoring the problem, without oil or water,
eventually your engine will fail, but Bi-Tron will provide protection for far
longer than would be the case with 'untreated' oils, regardless of brand,
with the possible exception of Castrol GTX Magnetic.
>
> -It would take some time though wouldn't it considering the oil is moving
> about and not staying in one place?
Yes, but remember that this is a vicious circle, the more friction due to lack
of lubrication, the hotter these friction points get, the oil will dissipate
away from these areas to the extreme heat regardless, like the dog chasing its
tail.
> Also I was wondering how quickly does a car lose it's coolant? Ok if you have
> a head on and crack the radiator etc...or if you have a cracked hose you will
> lose some water at a steady rate...but is it enough to get rid of all water?
Remember the boiling point of water is 100'C. In your engine, the temperature
of your water goes beyond that because it is under pressure. If you have a
leak, you risk the water boiling rather than remaining a liquid under
pressure. Therefore any water leak can pose to be a major problem, especially
for anything more than a short drive.
> and what happens once you have no coolant and run the engine? Does the temp
> gauge go up or down( I mean there is little water temp to measure no?)..I
> don't know I have never had the problem, so I am asking
Don't know myself. I used to own a VW Kombi Campervan in the early 80's, they
use an air-cooled engine which means you are never really sure how hot the
darn thing really is, unless you've got a temp gauge that measures not the
water temperature, but the temperature of the engine block, using a different
sender and gauge. SO I got a engine block temp gauge sender and gauge. Since
then I had owned a variety of cars, mostly Fords and Holdens, and the first
thing I invested in was an engine block temperature sender and gauge. If
you're losing coolant, your water temp gauge reading will be only a vague
indication as to what is happening under your bonnet (although you should
probably realise something is wrong?), reading the temp of the engine block
is the perfect way of keeping tabs of what is going on, should something go
wrong, such as loss of coolant and oil...
>
> -does rapid heating of oil cause it to move away faster than if it is put
> onto a moderately warm plate to begin with?
The speed of heating does not really matter, when you do reach a certain
temperature, the untreated oil tends to dissipate away from the area of
extreme heat. If you're using moderate heat, you can sit and wait until the
cows come home, your oil won't go anywhere if the heat is insufficient to
cause it to dissipate away.
>
> One more thing.....oil...how much does oil contribute to the cooling of your
> engine? anyone? since the sump is at the bottom I think it would be plenty
> cool no?
Oil contributes plenty to the cooling of the engine, for it prevents the
friction (and overheating) that would occur if it wasn't there to begin with.
When your engine is running, a thin film of oil remains on the moving
components, such as pistons, thus providing lubrication. But when an engine
overheats, oil moves away from the area of extreme heat when same reaches a
certain temperature. Adding Bi-Tron dramatically raises this certain
temperature thus providing superior protection to your engine.
> so oil could provide cooling in an emergency situation(however ineffective)
> couldn't it?
Only until a certain point, then it becomes ineffective.
ROGER
Matthew McDonald
Ok Roger, enough of your crap.
Respond to the following post instead of ignoring it and sprouting
your crap.
Using Teflon(R) Additives - Not Very Smart
By James R.
Davis
I will admit at the outset that I have no experience whatever in using
Slick 50 (nor will I ever). Further, though much will be
said of Slick 50 in what follows, it is all generally true also of any
other synthetic additive containing Teflon(R).
Slick 50 is a PTFE related product (ie, a Teflon(R) powder suspended
in standard oil). Powder, you will note, is a SOLID. Your
oil filter is designed to remove solids and tests have shown that oil
filters clog substantially sooner when Slick 50 is used than if
using standard oils without it - naturally. Manufacturers claim that
the particle size of this powder is smaller than the pore size
of oil filters, implying that they will pass right through them, but
they do not also say that these particles expand rapidly when
exposed to heat - so that they may well pass thru when cold, but not
after they reach normal engine temperatures. Tests also
demonstrate that other oil passageways also tend to clog when PTFE is
used.
Tests? By whom? Are they credible? Answer: by organizations like NASA
Lewis Research, the University of Utah Engineering
Experiment Station, and even DuPont Chemical Corporation, the
corporation that invented PTFE (Teflon(R)) and that
provides PTFE to the manufacturers of these 'magic' oils.
Wait! They sell the PTFE to companies like those that make Slick 50
yet they argue that it clogs oil filters and other oil
passageways? Not exactly. In a statement issued about ten years ago,
DuPont's Fluoropolymers Division Product Specialist,
J.F. Imbalzano said,
"Teflon is not useful as an ingredient in oil additives or oils
used for internal combustion engines."
They went on and REFUSED to sell PTFE to anyone that intended to do
so!
Naturally, they were sued by, guess who, on grounds of 'restraint of
trade'. DuPont lost and have changed their position as
follows: DuPont now states that though they sell PTFE to oil additive
producers, they have "no proof of the validity of the
additive makers' claims." They further state that they have "no
knowledge of any advantage gained through the use of PTFE in
engine oil."
NASA Lewis Research also ran tests on PTFE additives and they
concluded that:
"In the types of bearing surface contact we have looked at, we
have seen no benefit. In some cases we have seen
detrimental effect. The solids in the oil tend to accumulate at
inlets and act as a dam, which simply blocks the oil from
entering. Instead of helping, it is actually depriving parts of
lubricant."
As to my earlier assertion that Teflon(R) cannot be made to bond to
engine parts, despite what Slick 50 says, the Chief Chemist
of Redline Synthetic Oil Company, Roy Howell, says:
"... to plate Teflon on a metal needs an absolutely clean, high
temperature surface, in a vacuum. Therefore, it is highly
unlikely that the Teflon in Slick 50 actually plates the metal
surface. In addition the Cf (Coefficient of friction) of Teflon
is actually greater than the Cf of an Oil Film on Steel. Also, if
the Teflon did fill in 'craters' in the steel, than it would
fill in the honing of the cylinder, and the oil would not seal
the piston rings."
Well, you get the picture. PTFE products like Slick 50 tend to clog
oil filters and passageways, resulting in faster ENGINE
WEAR. Further, Teflon(R) is NOT as slippery as an Oil Film on Steel.
Nobody is arguing that you won't get higher engine performance (power)
or better gas mileage if you use it. On the other hand,
if your engine wears out faster I wonder if that's worth it along with
the very much higher price.
If you find that you have to change your oil more often, and use this
pricey stuff in it each time, the effective cost is even
higher. If you decide that clogged oil filters and oil passageways are
something you'ld rather do without, how do you get rid of
it once you put it into your system? Well, in the case of your clutch,
by taking it apart and cleaning it! That's an expensive
additive 'cost'.
It is no wonder as far as I'm concerned that Slick 50 is often called
'snake oil'. You might not be stupid if you put it into your
motorcycle, but I would be.
-------
Following is a press release fron the Federal Trade Commission that
you will find interesting if anything I said above fails to be
persuasive - JRD
FOR RELEASE: JULY 23, 1997
------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUAKER STATE SUBSIDIARIES SETTLE FTC CHARGES AGAINST SLICK 50
Agreement Safeguards $10 Million in Redress to Consumers
Three subsidiaries of Quaker State Corp. have agreed to settle Federal
Trade Commission charges that ads for Quaker State's
Slick 50 Engine Treatment were false and unsubstantiated. Under the
terms of the settlement, the companies will be barred
from making certain claims and required to have substantiation for
claims about the performance, benefits, efficacy or
attributes of their engine lubricant products. In addition, the
settlement will preserve the Commission's option to seek
consumer redress if class action suits currently being litigated
against Quaker State and its subsidiaries result in less than $10
million in consumer redress.
The three Quaker State subsidiaries named in the settlement are Blue
Coral, Inc., Blue Coral-Slick 50, Inc., and Blue
Coral-Slick 50, Ltd. Blue Coral, Inc., is based in Cleveland, Ohio.
Since its 1978 introduction, Slick 50 has about 30 million
users world-wide and retails for about $18 a quart. The company claims
to have about 60% of the engine treatment market.
In July, 1996, the FTC issued a complaint against four now-defunct
Quaker State subsidiaries, which have been succeeded in
interest by the three subsidiaries named in the settlement. The FTC's
1996 complaint charged that ads for Slick 50 claiming
improved engine performance and reduced engine wear were deceptive.
According to the 1996 complaint, Quaker State's
subsidiaries aired television and radio commercials and published
brochures carrying claims such as:
--"Every time you cold start your car without Slick 50 protection,
metal grinds against metal in your engine";
--"With each turn of the ignition you do unseen damage, because at
cold start-up most of the oil is down in the pan. But Slick
50's unique chemistry bonds to engine parts. It reduces wear up to 50%
for 50,000 miles";
--"What makes Slick 50 Automotive Engine Formula different is an
advanced chemical support package designed to bond a
specially activated PTFE to the metal in your engine."
According to the FTC complaint, these claims and similar ones falsely
represented that without Slick 50, auto engines generally
have little or no protection from wear at start-up and commonly
experience premature failure caused by wear. In fact, the
complaint alleged, most automobile engines are adequately protected
from wear at start-up when they use motor oil as
recommended in the owner's manual. Moreover, it is uncommon for
engines to experience premature failure caused by wear,
whether they have been treated with Slick 50 or not, according to the
FTC. Finally, the FTC alleged that Slick 50 neither coats
engine parts with a layer of PTFE nor meets military specifications
for motor oil additives, as falsely claimed.
The FTC complaint also charged that Slick 50 lacked substantiation for
advertising claims that, compared to motor oil alone,
the product:
--reduces engine wear;
--reduces engine wear by more than 50%;
--reduces engine wear by up to 50%;
--reduces engine wear at start-up;
--extends the duration of engine life;
--lowers engine temperatures;
--reduces toxic emissions;
--increases gas mileage; and
--increases horsepower.
In addition, the complaint alleged that the company did not have
adequate substantiation for its advertising claims that one
treatment of Slick 50 continues to reduce wear for 50,000 miles and
that it has been used in a significant number of U.S.
Government vehicles.
Finally, the complaint challenged ads stating that "tests prove" the
engine wear reduction claims make by Slick 50. In fact,
according to the FTC complaint, tests do not prove that Slick 50
reduces engine wear at start up, or by 50%, or that one
treatment reduces engine wear for 50,000 miles.
The agreement to settle the FTC charges bars any claims that:
--engines lack protection from wear at start-up unless they have been
treated with Slick 50 or a similar PTFE product;
--engines commonly experience premature failure caused by wear unless
they are treated with Slick 50 or a similar PTFE
product; or,
--Slick 50 or a similar PTFE product coats engine parts with a layer
of PTFE.
In addition, the agreement will prohibit misrepresentations that Slick
50 or any engine lubricant meets the standards of any
organization and misrepresentations about tests or studies.
The settlement also prohibits any claims about the performance,
benefits, efficacy, attributes or use of engine lubricants unless
Quaker State's subsidiaries possess and rely on competent and reliable
evidence to substantiate the claims. In addition, it
prohibits the Quaker State subsidiaries from claiming that any other
Slick 50 motor vehicle lubricant reduces wear on a part,
extends the part's life, lowers engine temperature, reduces toxic
emissions, increases gas mileage or increases horsepower unless
they can substantiate the claim. The subsidiaries also will be
required to notify resellers of the product about the settlement
with the FTC and the restrictions on advertising claims.
Finally, the agreement holds open the option that the FTC may seek
consumer redress. If the private class action suits against
Slick 50 currently under litigation do not result in at least $10
million in redress to consumers, the agency reserves its right to
file its own federal district court action for consumer redress. In
addition, the FTC has reserved its right to seek to intervene in
any class action suit to oppose a settlement it believes is not in the
public interest.
The Commission vote to approve the proposed consent agreement was 5-0.
A summary of the agreement will be published in
the Federal Register shortly and will be subject to public comment for
60 days, after which the Commission will decide whether
to make it final. Comments should be addressed to the FTC, Office of
the Secretary, 6th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue,
N.W., Washington, D.C. 20580.
NOTE: A consent agreement is for settlement purposes only and does not
constitute an admission of a law violation. When the
Commission issues a consent order on a final basis, it carries the
force of law with respect to future actions. Each violation of
such an order may result in a civil penalty of $11,000.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Copies of the complaint, consent agreement, an analysis to aid public
comment and an FTC brochure, "Penny Wise or Pump
Fuelish" are available on the Internet at the FTC's World Wide Web
site at: http://www.ftc.gov and also from the FTC's Public
Reference Branch, Room 130, 6th Street and Pennsylvania Avenue, N.W.,
Washington, D.C. 20580; 202-326-2222; TTY for the
hearing impaired 202-326-2502. To find out the latest news as it is
announced, call the FTC NewsPhone recording at
202-326-2710.
Teflon(R) is a registered trademark of DuPont.
Matt Crichton
call...@comports.com wrote in message <78elnm$d8m$1...@nnrp1.dejanews.com>...
>In article <368c1794...@news.onthenet.com.au>, eric...@hotmail.com
>As per another post about Bi-Tron products:
>"in my experience (2 years) it has not had any negatve effects on any
engine
>that was treated. It has however saved quite a few that had lost coolant. I
>taxies it has increased engine life by around 200 000 kms. plus it DOES
save a
>lot of fuel!"
>
If it is so good and decreases fuel consumption which Maunfacturers recomend
or indeed use it as a standard product, after all one of the biggest selling
points of modern vehicles is fuel consumption figures.
Most manufacturers have large R&D departments so why havn't they all jumped
on the this stuff is fabulous bandwagon. Surely it's in their interest to
have their engines run smoother and have all that increased lubrication
Matt
John Harvey
>bare metal. When you re-start your engine (cold start), it takes a short time
>for the oil to be pumped back onto the moving parts. This is why taxis
>commonly get 750'000km and beyond on their engines because they stop the
>engine only when really necessary, ie: refuelling time. (Most taxi cabs run
>all day and all night on rotating driver shifts).
For someone who accuses others of knowing Didly Squat you sure are
ignorant yourself!
The absence of cold starts allows taxi engines to last so long going,
because that's when all the nasty corrosive combustion products are
formed. They're the ones which corrode the engine's internals (not
that fools or mechanics are able to see it). Has the same effect as
the chlorides in your Bi-tron probably.
And if you think that when an engine's stopped all the oil runs away
leaving bare metal, then you've never seen inside an engine!
But please keep posting because you're the best advertisement for not
using Bi-tron we've seen here yet.
John H
Matthew McDonald
>In article <78rkg5$qug$1...@pc1762.alcatel.com.au>,
> "Matt Crichton" <m...@mindless.com> wrote:
>>
>> If it is so good and decreases fuel consumption which Maunfacturers recomend
>> or indeed use it as a standard product, after all one of the biggest selling
>> points of modern vehicles is fuel consumption figures.
>
>No vehicle manufacturer endorses any product, whether it is an additive or
>not, unless they receive payment for this endorsement.
Bullshit.
If Ford could magically overnight drop fuel consumption by 10%,
increase power by 10% and decrease warranty claims 50% by adding a $10
additive to their car, don't you think they would!
They spend Million and Millions of dollars shaving off a few kilos
here and there, yet Slick 50 offers them much bigger savings for no
outlay.
They could package it in their own name and make the dealers put it in
each service.
So shut up with your stupid shit Roger and respond to the posts about
Slick 50 or F#$k off.
>> Most manufacturers have large R&D departments so why havn't they all jumped
>> on the this stuff is fabulous bandwagon. Surely it's in their interest to
>> have their engines run smoother and have all that increased lubrication
>Yes, but you don't see Holden recommending Castrol GTX2 or Valvoline as their
>preferred Lubricant, now do you? They try to shift their own generic brand oil
>through their retail outlets at major dealerships (such as the one on Victoria
>Road, Top Ryde).
>
>Bi-Tron's manufacturer, N/A/T/O will not stoop so low as to pay for their
>endorsements, and why should they? The whole concept of Network Marketing does
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA, they already sell snake oil don't they!
call...@comports.com
johnh...@bigpond.com (John Harvey) wrote:
> And if you think that when an engine's stopped all the oil runs away
> leaving bare metal, then you've never seen inside an engine!
I've never looked into an engine myself, as I am not a qualified mechanic or
engine rebuilder (I wouldn't know how to put the darn thing back together
again) :-) However, this is what I have been told by several highly qualified
mechanics and engine rebuilders, including one that works for Jardine
Shipping here, who maintains their fleet of forklifts, trucks, etc, including
rebuilding engines and the works, he says that when an engine is switched off
and left to cool down, most of the oil leaves the moving componentry, such as
cylinder walls, which is the main reason why the most wear and tear occurs
during engine starts from cold.
Maybe I am misinformed, but that does make sense when you think about it. Bi-
Tron and similar products leave a thin film of oil there, to protect the
engine during starting from excessive wear, that's one reason why they last
longer.
...ROGER...
John Harvey
>Bi-Tron's manufacturer, N/A/T/O will not stoop so low as to pay for their
>endorsements, and why should they? The whole concept of Network Marketing does
>this for them, kills two birds with the same stone, and gets their product out
>there into the marketplace without having to get into conventional methods of
>maketing. The same sort of thing is working fine for Amway, regardless as to
>what your opinions about Amway would be... - they're still a major company.
Anyone interested in that concept oughta read *Dangerous Persuaders -
An expose of gurus, personal development courses and cults, and how
they operate in Australia* by Louise Samways (Penguin Books). I'm
also told that the Chinese government banned Amway from operating in
their country last year.
John H
John Harvey
>In article <78rkg5$qug$1...@pc1762.alcatel.com.au>,
> "Matt Crichton" <m...@mindless.com> wrote:
>>
>> If it is so good and decreases fuel consumption which Maunfacturers recomend
>> or indeed use it as a standard product, after all one of the biggest selling
>> points of modern vehicles is fuel consumption figures.
>No vehicle manufacturer endorses any product, whether it is an additive or
>not, unless they receive payment for this endorsement.
>
Many manufacturers do indeed supply comprehensive lists of recommended
lubricants. Absolutely *none* I know of recommends Bi-tron though.
>> Most manufacturers have large R&D departments so why havn't they all jumped
>> on the this stuff is fabulous bandwagon. Surely it's in their interest to
>> have their engines run smoother and have all that increased lubrication
>Yes, but you don't see Holden recommending Castrol GTX2 or Valvoline as their
>preferred Lubricant, now do you? They try to shift their own generic brand oil
>through their retail outlets at major dealerships (such as the one on Victoria
>Road, Top Ryde).
My local Holden dealership uses Castrol and the Ford one uses Shell.
All dealerships use and sell whatever they like but I know of
absolutely *none* that uses or sells Bi-tron.
>Bi-Tron's manufacturer, N/A/T/O will not stoop so low as to pay for their
>endorsements, and why should they? The whole concept of Network Marketing does
>this for them, kills two birds with the same stone, and gets their product out
>there into the marketplace without having to get into conventional methods of
>maketing. The same sort of thing is working fine for Amway, regardless as to
>what your opinions about Amway would be... - they're still a major company.
Is the pot calling the kettle black?
In fact no major retailer stoops so low as to embrace MLM. You're not
likely to find Amway in Woolworths even though they sell just about
everything else, motor oils included.
John H
John Harvey
>In article <36cb5f11...@news.bigpond.com>,
> johnh...@bigpond.com (John Harvey) wrote:
>> And if you think that when an engine's stopped all the oil runs away
>> leaving bare metal, then you've never seen inside an engine!
>
>I've never looked into an engine myself, as I am not a qualified mechanic or
>engine rebuilder (I wouldn't know how to put the darn thing back together
>again) :-) However, this is what I have been told by several highly qualified
>mechanics and engine rebuilders, including one that works for Jardine
>Shipping here, who maintains their fleet of forklifts, trucks, etc, including
>rebuilding engines and the works, he says that when an engine is switched off
>and left to cool down, most of the oil leaves the moving componentry, such as
>cylinder walls, which is the main reason why the most wear and tear occurs
>during engine starts from cold.
>
>Maybe I am misinformed, but that does make sense when you think about it. Bi-
>Tron and similar products leave a thin film of oil there, to protect the
>engine during starting from excessive wear, that's one reason why they last
>longer.
You should ask your super mechanic how he thinks a high performance
2-stroke running on 50:1 pre-mix ever survives startup, let alone
being able to output well in excess of 100bhp per litre at 15,000rpm.
The reason is quite simple really...
Oils are formulated to provide efficient lubrication right down to a
molecular layer, and all the additives necessary to achieve this
marvelous feat are already there. It should also make you wonder just
what happens to an oil company's formulation (which only they are
privy to) when someone chucks in unknown compound x.
I'd liken it to tipping sewerage into a reservoir!
John H
ChrisG
John Harvey wrote in message <36b48cb...@news.bigpond.com>...
>On Sat, 30 Jan 1999 07:25:54 GMT, call...@comports.com wrote:
>
>>Bi-Tron's manufacturer, N/A/T/O will not stoop so low as to pay for their
>>endorsements, and why should they? The whole concept of Network Marketing
does
>>this for them, kills two birds with the same stone, and gets their product
out
>>there into the marketplace without having to get into conventional methods
of
>>maketing. The same sort of thing is working fine for Amway, regardless as
to
>>what your opinions about Amway would be... - they're still a major
company.
>
>
>An expose of gurus, personal development courses and cults, and how
>they operate in Australia* by Louise Samways (Penguin Books). I'm
>also told that the Chinese government banned Amway from operating in
>their country last year.
There's nothing wrong with Amway products, in fact, a good deal of their
products are better than their Target/K-Mart equivalents. Also, the Chinese
Government aren't exactly a country to follow with regards to banning things
eg. they used to ban Sky Channel, doesn't mean we should have.
Chris
>
>John H
Moron!
>
> In article <36cb5f11...@news.bigpond.com>,
> johnh...@bigpond.com (John Harvey) wrote:
> > And if you think that when an engine's stopped all the oil runs away
> > leaving bare metal, then you've never seen inside an engine!
>
> I've never looked into an engine myself, as I am not a qualified mechanic or
> engine rebuilder (I wouldn't know how to put the darn thing back together
> again) :-)
[snip]
Never looked inside an engine? And that makes you an?????
Oil will sit on the bores for, a long time, When you startup, within a few
years of stopping the oil will still be there, however oilpressure will not be.
A lot of things work well in theory. . . I don't usually make personal insults
but I'm afraid you are starting to sound like an academic.
Don't believe everything you hear. . .
--
Moron! -=DUH#20=- (Y3)
"You're embarassed? I was passed by a flaming 120Y"
aus.cars FAQ On-Line: http://www.clubduh.com/users/rotor/auscar/auscar.html
Anthea
>"You're embarassed? I was passed by a flaming 120Y"
..yet another reason why people should stop chucking cigarette butts out
their windows...
Ant! -=DUH#18=- (Y2)
Don't flame the Vitara!!!!
Pete!
mat...@mobileREMOVEworld.org (Matthew McDonald) wrote:
>On Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:41:15 GMT, call...@comports.com wrote:
>
>>
>>> >How did you measure the engine temperature? If you drained the coolant,
>>> >the reading your getting from the gauge is entirely bullshit, or maybe
>>> >just your story.
>>
the
>
>Why no response "Roger" to the post that I made with all the
>information on Slick 50?
>
>Do you really have no response? I guess this proves it, your product
>is shit and you have no defense for the truth.
>
>
>Regards
>Matthew
I wonder if BiCrud can cleanse your postings, coat your news reader AND reduce
the your hard disk speed?
P!
Pete!
>In article <78n6pr$grr$1...@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>,
> "Miklos Kovacs" <mko...@mpx.com.au> wrote:
>
>> -Umm isn't that why the oil circulates around your engine? you know so it
>> coats > the thing over and over and doesn't have to worry about sitting in
>> one spot too long?
>
>Correct, however whan you switch off your engine, the oil runs away leaving
>bare metal. When you re-start your engine (cold start), it takes a short time
Why is it then when I have pulled an engine down that there is still plenty of
oil over everything?
>for the oil to be pumped back onto the moving parts. This is why taxis
>commonly get 750'000km and beyond on their engines because they stop the
>engine only when really necessary, ie: refuelling time. (Most taxi cabs run
>all day and all night on rotating driver shifts). Products such as Bi-Tron
Cabs run LPG which doesn't "bore wash" like petrol. We have owned 450,000
engines that have been pulled down to reveal the factory hone marks in the
bores and not a whiff of Snake Oil ever went near the car.
P!
Andrew Janke
: In article <78n6pr$grr$1...@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>,
: "Miklos Kovacs" <mko...@mpx.com.au> wrote:
:
: > -Is this the same test where they run it for a minute or so then whack it
: > with a hose and go "Look water isn't stopping it"? If so wouldn't the blast
: > with the hose cool the engine sufficiently to start the test again? I notice
: > door hinges work for a while too before needing re-oiling....
:
: I wouldn't hit a hot engine with water from a hose, you could crack the
: engine block, nasty thing that.
Now I've always wondered about this.. I suppose you NEVER drive through puddles
either as the block might get splashed with cold water.. ooooh dangerous.
Granted it it not all that clever to hit a OVERHEATED block with a hose, but
I sometimes have my doubts as to normal conditions.
rote -=DUH!#16=- (Y2)
Rotes Projects http://student.uq.edu.au/~s324570/index.html
aus.cars FAQ http://www.clubduh.com/index.html
additions to the FAQ to aus....@clubduh.com
John Harvey
>Brisbane to Sydney is a long drive, approx. 800km? My example was around 65km
>of driving on open road, approaching Rockhampton.
No it wasn't - you claimed 300km
Here 'tis...
>Driving from Cairns to the Gold Coast, with a planned stop at Rockhampton, I
>noticed a puff of smoke coming from under the bonnet about 65km out of
>Mackay, outside temperature a humid 33 deg celsius. As my temperature gauge
>on the Falcon takes the temp off the engine block and not the water, I
>noticed only slight upwards movement of the temp gauge needle, and kept
>driving at around 110km/h to 130km/h keeping a close eye on the temp gauge. A
>further 200km of driving and the temp gauge needle edged only a notch higher,
>I didn't think much of it and kept on driving the remainder to Rockhampton.
>
>Pulling into our overnight stop at the David Motel at North Rockhampton, it
>was time to check under the bonnet to see that fluid levels were correct.
>There was no water in the radiator, and as it turned out, the bottom radiator
>hose had burst with a rip almost two inches long. That must have explained
>the puff of smoke. The car did not overheat for around 300km of driving at
>high speed on a hot day, I'm sure that any car without water in the radiator
>would overheat in next to no time, but not in this case. Whatever is in the
>bi-tron products, it works , and I will keep on using the products!
If it ever happened at all couldn't we reasonably expect your
recollections to be somewhat better?
After all you only posted it a month ago!
John H
Dennis Jensen
>In article <78rkg5$qug$1...@pc1762.alcatel.com.au>,
> "Matt Crichton" <m...@mindless.com> wrote:
>>
>> If it is so good and decreases fuel consumption which Maunfacturers
recomend
>> or indeed use it as a standard product, after all one of the biggest
selling
>> points of modern vehicles is fuel consumption figures.
>
>No vehicle manufacturer endorses any product, whether it is an additive or
>not, unless they receive payment for this endorsement.
>
>>
>> on the this stuff is fabulous bandwagon. Surely it's in their interest to
>> have their engines run smoother and have all that increased lubrication
>Yes, but you don't see Holden recommending Castrol GTX2 or Valvoline as their
>preferred Lubricant, now do you? They try to shift their own generic brand
oil
>through their retail outlets at major dealerships (such as the one on
Victoria
>Road, Top Ryde).
>
>endorsements, and why should they? The whole concept of Network Marketing
does
>this for them, kills two birds with the same stone, and gets their product
out
>there into the marketplace without having to get into conventional methods of
>maketing. The same sort of thing is working fine for Amway, regardless as to
>what your opinions about Amway would be... - they're still a major company.
>
Another load of crap. Mobil extensively advertises the fact that Chevvy uses
Mobil 1 as initial fill on Corvettes (same with Porsche). Shell advertises
that Ferrari use their synthetic as initial fill. Believe me, if Bi-Tron were
such an advance, the companies WOULD use it, and Bi-Tron could advertise the
fact.
Sorry, but you have no credibility whatsoever.
Dennis
Dennis Jensen
s32...@student.uq.edu.au (Andrew Janke) wrote:
>call...@comports.com babbled:
>: In article <78n6pr$grr$1...@reader1.reader.news.ozemail.net>,
>: "Miklos Kovacs" <mko...@mpx.com.au> wrote:
>:
>: > -Is this the same test where they run it for a minute or so then whack it
>: > with a hose and go "Look water isn't stopping it"? If so wouldn't the
blast
>: > with the hose cool the engine sufficiently to start the test again? I
notice
>: > door hinges work for a while too before needing re-oiling....
>:
>: I wouldn't hit a hot engine with water from a hose, you could crack the
>: engine block, nasty thing that.
>
puddles
>either as the block might get splashed with cold water.. ooooh dangerous.
>
>Granted it it not all that clever to hit a OVERHEATED block with a hose, but
>I sometimes have my doubts as to normal conditions.
>
Exactly. The outside of the engine block would be, at most, 100 degrees
(boiling point, plus it would be a little cooler (yeah, I know that increased
pressure means that the stuff boils hotter, but by and large the thermostat,
but you still won't get enough variation to crack the block.
Dennis
Pete!
John, if you read the label, you would be better informed -
"Use of Bi-onic Snake Oil 50 may cause temporal displacement"
Hence, 300km within the users point of reference but 800 within our mortal
frames of reference.
Bisexual Snake Oil 50 is so dense (due to the gravity field is generates in
order to reduce friction) that the acceleration it generates causes time to
slow and approached a condition much like a black hole which has been
theorises as a portal to another time.
It also generates a Tipler Cylinder within your engine so time lows down i.e a
10 year old engine is really a 2 year old engine.
So, by Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, you can't determine how much wear
will occur, only the probability that it has been reduced.
>John H
Very Emeritius Professor Pete! PhD, SMD, DUH!
Dennis Jensen
John, the other thing that he hasn't mentioned-he is obviously driving an AU
Falcon (temp sensor on block, not in water). Fact is, this idiot doesn't
realise that the engine is designed to be able to run without coolant! The
computer retards the ignition somewhat, and the engine runs on the front 3
cylinders for a few seconds (with the rear 3 effectively being air cooled),
and then switches to firing the rear 3 while the front 3 are being cooled. And
no, Ford does not specify using Bi-Tron to do this.
If this guy now tries to claim that it was not an AU Falcon, then he is really
full of it, as all previous Falcons measured the temperature from the coolant.
Dennis