Law on Driving with Foglights on in QLD
origin...@my-deja.com
"TONY" <x...@fun.com> wrote:
...
> does anyone know the law on driving
> with foglights on in Queensland.
>
> I have heard that only if you have
> your headlights on parkers only then
> you can have your foglights on.
...
Think about other drivers; they're going to be just as annoying whether
you've got your parkers on or your main beam on, aren't they?
Assuming that there are now uniform road rules, it's definitely illegal.
But even if it was legal, it'd be immoral.
-Forg (Elsewhere)
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Miffo
lot of cars driving in normal conditions with their front
and rear fog lights on.
These people probably think they are cool when to me they
are nothing but dickheads.
I believe there is a law which states that the fog lights
are only permitted to be turned on in foggy conditions. But
I doubt the Police do anything if they see cars with their
fog lights on in normal condition.
Miffo
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Spooky
"Miffo" <miffoN...@mbox.com.au.invalid> wrote in message
news:22d86bc4...@usw-ex0108-062.remarq.com...
> Now that more cars are fitted with foglights, I see quite a
> lot of cars driving in normal conditions with their front
> and rear fog lights on.
>
> These people probably think they are cool when to me they
> are nothing but dickheads.
>
> I believe there is a law which states that the fog lights
> are only permitted to be turned on in foggy conditions. But
> I doubt the Police do anything if they see cars with their
> fog lights on in normal condition.
In NSW you are only permitted to use these lights in Fog. Yes we do enforce
it. I have
handed out countless fines for inappropriate use of fog lamps. (we call
them wanka lights)
Incidently, the maximum wattage for front fog lights is no more than 7
watts. Anything over 7 watts and they are then considered driving lights.
Seperate offence under these circumstances ie : Not dip headlights.
Spooky
Jason LEE
The law states they are allowed to be used in fog, or poor weather
conditions.
So not a a clear night!
Jason.
"TONY" <x...@fun.com> writes:
>does anyone know the law on driving with foglights on in Queensland.
>I have heard that only if you have your headlights on parkers only then you
>can have your foglights on.
>Someone know the traffic act on this???
Mitchell Scott
conditions .. ie early morning and drizzling rain.. 30 buck fine .. could
not be bothered arguing with the cop who said that they were driving lights
not fog lights.
--
Mitchell Scott
"Don't adjust your mind ... The fault is with Reality"
mitchel...@mail.com
ICQ # 18881513
TONY
M@W8
TONY <x...@fun.com> wrote in message news:39a3b817@grissom...
Bernd had the answer to this several weeks ago. There is a law regarding it
but I can't remember the specifics. The best bet is to only use them when
there's a danger that you may not be seen by other vehicles due to fog or
rain.
The Taipan
?no points
WRX owner that I work with got fined for it last year...
SL
"TONY" <x...@fun.com> wrote in message news:39a3b817@grissom...
J
Spooky <spo...@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:RTYo5.9853$Xg.9...@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
Anything over 7 watts and they are then considered driving lights.
My dash lights are brighter!
J
AA
enforce
> it. I have
> handed out countless fines for inappropriate use of fog lamps. (we call
> them wanka lights)
> Incidently, the maximum wattage for front fog lights is no more than 7
lights.
> Seperate offence under these circumstances ie : Not dip headlights.
>
> Spooky
>
other day.
The Australian Road Rules (ARR) refer to fog lights in two places. 215(2)
states that "...a driver driving during the day in fog, or other hazardous
weather conditions causing reduced visibility, may drive without the
headlights of the driver's vehicle operating if the vehicle is fitted with
front fog lights and those lights are operating effectively and are clearly
visible."
217(1) refers specifically to rear fog lights and states that "The driver
of a vehicle fitted with a rear fog light must not operate the fog light
unless the driver is driving in fog or other hazardous weather conditions
causing reduced visibility."
There appears to be no restriction in the ARR to the use of front fog
lights, unless it is well hidden and I've missed it. However, individual
State laws may well be more restrictive as suggested by Spooky and I had
intended to ask what the NSW situation was (being in ACT I naturally spend
a lot of time in NSW).
But I am intrigued by the reference to 7 watts Spooky. Do you mean 70? 7
watts is barely more than a tail light. My car has factory fitted (front)
fog lights, as well as driving lights. Both are 55W. The driving lights are
linked to high beam automatically, the fogs are separately switched but
require the parkers on as a minimum. The car complies with ADRs, so I can't
see how you would classify the fog lights as driving lights by being over 7
W.
Bernd Felsche
>"Miffo" <miffoN...@mbox.com.au.invalid> wrote in message
>news:22d86bc4...@usw-ex0108-062.remarq.com...
>> Now that more cars are fitted with foglights, I see quite a
>> lot of cars driving in normal conditions with their front
>> and rear fog lights on.
>>
>> These people probably think they are cool when to me they
>> are nothing but dickheads.
>>
>> I believe there is a law which states that the fog lights
>> are only permitted to be turned on in foggy conditions. But
>> I doubt the Police do anything if they see cars with their
>> fog lights on in normal condition.
>In NSW you are only permitted to use these lights in Fog. Yes we
>do enforce it. I have handed out countless fines for inappropriate
>use of fog lamps. (we call them wanka lights) Incidently, the
>maximum wattage for front fog lights is no more than 7 watts.
>Anything over 7 watts and they are then considered driving lights.
You have got to be joking. 7 watts is PARKING lights.
It would be unsafe to move a vehicle at any speed at night with the
use of 7W lights.
Please check the ADR's, ECE standards and ARRs (which refer to
vehicle standards). Fog lamps tend to be around 55W.
Driving lights are aimed completely differently to fog lights. The
light dispersion characteristics of fog lights are vastly different
to those of driving lights.
Fog lights are completely useless as driving lights because the
illuminate the road immediately in front of the vehicle. At 5
metres, the centre of the beam is supposed to be aligned 100mm below
the height of the centre of the projecting light.
That means that the centre of the beam hits the road at between 10
and 15 metres in front of the car. At 50 metres, which is where
driving lights would start to be useful, there is negligible
illumination from fog lights.
A fog lamp would be useless as a fog lamp were is aimed like a
driving light. And a driving light is dangerous to use in fog
because you get NO visibility.
>Seperate offence under these circumstances ie : Not dip headlights.
--
Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning
Perth, Western Australia
Bernd Felsche
>> In NSW you are only permitted to use these lights in Fog. Yes we do enforce
>> it. I have
>> handed out countless fines for inappropriate use of fog lamps. (we call
>> them wanka lights)
>> Incidently, the maximum wattage for front fog lights is no more than 7
>> watts. Anything over 7 watts and they are then considered driving lights.
>> Seperate offence under these circumstances ie : Not dip headlights.
>Interesting that this has been raised, as I was thinking about this
>the other day.
>The Australian Road Rules (ARR) refer to fog lights in two places.
>215(2) states that "...a driver driving during the day in fog, or
>other hazardous weather conditions causing reduced visibility, may
>drive without the headlights of the driver's vehicle operating if
>the vehicle is fitted with front fog lights and those lights are
>operating effectively and are clearly visible."
>217(1) refers specifically to rear fog lights and states that "The
>driver of a vehicle fitted with a rear fog light must not operate
>the fog light unless the driver is driving in fog or other
>hazardous weather conditions causing reduced visibility."
Those are the only two explicit references to fog lights in the ARR
from my reading (and computer search). There's also a general
reference about dazzling other drivers, but front fogs don't do that
unless they're misaligned or just cresting a hill (in which case the
low beams would be much worse).
>There appears to be no restriction in the ARR to the use of front
>fog lights, unless it is well hidden and I've missed it. However,
>individual State laws may well be more restrictive as suggested by
>Spooky and I had intended to ask what the NSW situation was (being
>in ACT I naturally spend a lot of time in NSW).
Spooky
I can tell you that under the old "Schedule F", front fog lights were to be no more than 7 watts and
HAD to be white or yellow lights/lens'. Any greater and they were considered driving lights. I
assumed (possibly wrongly until I confirm it) that this would have carried over to the Australian
Road Rules.
Spooky
"Bernd Felsche" <ber...@innovative.iinet.net.au> wrote in message
news:8o29r3$ec0$1...@flywheel.innovative.iinet.net.au...
Ian
fog lights)
Its a riceboy thing to turn them on anyother time.
Ian
TONY wrote in message <39a3b817@grissom>...
lemon_tree
> It would be unsafe to move a vehicle at any speed at night with the
> use of 7W lights.
Park lights are 10W on stock systems, tail lights are 5W/21W, low beam is
55W.
> Please check the ADR's, ECE standards and ARRs (which refer to
> vehicle standards). Fog lamps tend to be around 55W.
Or 35W but not used in Australia.
lemon_tree
why) but in Division 3 Rule 84 Part (6)(b) states this.
"lemon_tree" <lemon_treeeeeeeeeee@lemon_treeeee.com> wrote in message
news:vy4p5.342$cr3....@ozemail.com.au...
> > You have got to be joking. 7 watts is PARKING lights.
> > It would be unsafe to move a vehicle at any speed at night with the
> > use of 7W lights.
>
> Park lights are 10W on stock systems, tail lights are 5W/21W, low beam is
> 55W.
>
> > Please check the ADR's, ECE standards and ARRs (which refer to
> > vehicle standards). Fog lamps tend to be around 55W.
>
lemon_tree
are trying to Unify the whole states to one common law) it did not specify
whether or not it was illegal or not so there is a loophole there in the
act. It mearly states that the lights on the car must not be used to dazzle
other road users (Section 219) and that you may use fog lights without low
beam when in foggy or adverse conditions (Section 215).
Rear fog lights on the other hand got a special mention and was deemed
illegal unless in foggy conditions. (Section 217)
Previously, the only state to allow WHITE fog lights was Victoria. Yellow
weren't allowed for some reason but every other state had a restriction on
them.
The link for the changed road rules are here below.
http://law.gov.au/aghome/legalpol/old/nrtc/
"The Taipan" <sim...@powerup.com.au> wrote in message
news:39a45dcd@grissom...
Christopher Smith
"Mitchell Scott" <mitchel...@mail.com> wrote in message
news:39a46506$0$784$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
> I got done in my subaru for having mine on in what I considered poor light
> conditions .. ie early morning and drizzling rain.. 30 buck fine .. could
> not be bothered arguing with the cop who said that they were driving
lights
> not fog lights.
They are driving lights on Subes aren't they ? They're frigging big for
foggies :).
Daryl Walford
I have never seen a fog lamp with less than a 55 Watt globe.
Anything less would be useless.
Daryl
The Taipan
I think Qld law refers to "extra" lights...
"Ian" <ian...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:8o1f3v$j6n$1...@sol.mincom.oz.au...
> To save confusion just use them when its foggy (thats why they are called
> fog lights)
>
> Its a riceboy thing to turn them on anyother time.
>
> Ian
>
> TONY wrote in message <39a3b817@grissom>...
Jeremy, Kathy & Clan
Christopher Smith <drsm...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:8o2o8o$d64$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
No sir, the Subaru lights are front fog lights. Look closely at the lens of
the light. Above the e/E mark (an e or E in a circle) will be the code
"02B" It is the "B" that gives the lamp approval for use a a front fog.
The marking "HR" in the same position indicates the lamp if a "driving
lamp".
Visit an auto store, notice the Hella and Narva (and other brands of course)
driving and fog lights. Notice the codes? Good point to remember.
Consumer protection from 'industry professionals who have no idea what they
are selling, try it.
K-Mart are selling "clear driving lights" which are coded front fog, yet,
the amber versions they sell - fog.
R.
Jeremy Pritchard
Motorists Advocate
jp...@wxc.com.au
Jeremy, Kathy & Clan
> Ok, until I get my copy back from Shane, I can't enlighten the situation.
> I can tell you that under the old "Schedule F", front fog lights were to
be no more than 7 watts and
> HAD to be white or yellow lights/lens'. Any greater and they were
considered driving lights. I
> assumed (possibly wrongly until I confirm it) that this would have carried
over to the Australian
> Road Rules.
Spooky - The old Schedule F never specified front fog lights at 7watts. I
have been dealing with lighting use and rules since 1986, in particular with
the Australian Road Rules. I am dealing with an error within the ARR
regarding the use of front fog lights at night and am seeking changes to NSW
law to reflect this. The ARR will be upgraded later.
Bernd Felsche comments are appropriate.
>
> Spooky
>
>
> "Bernd Felsche"
Jeremy, Kathy & Clan
> The road rules changed last year Decemeber and (well in NSW but I think
they
> are trying to Unify the whole states to one common law) it did not specify
> whether or not it was illegal or not so there is a loophole there in the
> act. It mearly states that the lights on the car must not be used to
dazzle
> other road users (Section 219) and that you may use fog lights without low
> beam when in foggy or adverse conditions (Section 215).
>
> Rear fog lights on the other hand got a special mention and was deemed
> illegal unless in foggy conditions. (Section 217)
>
> Previously, the only state to allow WHITE fog lights was Victoria. Yellow
> weren't allowed for some reason but every other state had a restriction on
> them.
>
Hi,
Consider this. A "maker" puts equipment on the car that complies with
"federal" rules - "The Australian Design Rules". These design rules apply
throughout Australia and are usually adopted in State and Territory law. (A
nation of sovereign states issue).
Front fog lights have been supplied in Australia on Mercedes Benz since
1963, they are 'white' and are legal to use, - for their intended purpose
throughout Australia and its Territories.
Please, if you know of anyone, or case, that has had any 'enforcement'
action on the basis of colour of the yellow/amber front fog light, let me
know.
I'd appreciate same where the person has been penalised regarding use of
same.
Regards,
Jeremy H. Pritchard
jp...@wxc.com.au
M@W8
Christopher Smith <drsm...@usa.net> wrote in message
news:8o2o8o$d64$1...@bunyip.cc.uq.edu.au...
>
> "Mitchell Scott" <mitchel...@mail.com> wrote in message
> news:39a46506$0$784$7f31...@news01.syd.optusnet.com.au...
> > I got done in my subaru for having mine on in what I considered poor
light
> > conditions .. ie early morning and drizzling rain.. 30 buck fine ..
could
> > not be bothered arguing with the cop who said that they were driving
> lights
> > not fog lights.
>
> They are driving lights on Subes aren't they ? They're frigging big for
> foggies :).
I don't think Subaru imports cars with driving lights. My mates 99 Liberty
RX has front fog lights and empty sockets where the driving lights would be.
The dealer told him that they can't fit them for some reason.
Jeremy, Kathy & Clan
Greetings M&W8,-
> I don't think Subaru imports cars with driving lights. My mates 99
Liberty
> RX has front fog lights and empty sockets where the driving lights would
be.
> The dealer told him that they can't fit them for some reason.
If those driving lights,- not on our Australian models, are E marked, (HR
above the 'mark') then the lamp itself will comply. However the 'placement'
is another matter. Here the Australian Design Rule ADR13 from memory comes
into play. ADR13 deals primarily with wiring, installation and fitment of
all other lighting ADR's.
If the driving lights are fitted to European models (for axample as an
option - instead of the front fog lights) they will be fitted in accodance
with Europes ECE rules. On that basis they could be used here, remember our
ADR's are UNECE - United Nations Economic Commission for Europe. Australia
has, of course some slight 'local' variance but generally this does not
apply to installation requirements and wiring requirements. The variance
will apply to 'cornering lamps, which are illegal in EU.
UNECE = ours, which are sourced from ECE.
It may be of course the 'sockets' you see are for the driving lights allowed
on Japenese models who's design rules are a little lapsy daisy. Japan is
changing though, its recently adopted UNECE rules and will continue to do
so. We will get future positive spin offs from this.
By the way,- your friends 99 Liberty has a single drivers side rear fog
lamp, complete with bulb. It just needs an activating switch. (and maybe a
length of wire). Might like to do so if he or she drives 'enough'. I
would.
I could give you a definitive answer on the drivng lamp issue.
Spooky
"Jeremy, Kathy & Clan" <jp...@wxc.com.au> wrote in message news:8o4eo6$afl$1...@merki.connect.com.au...
It most certainly did!
I have schedule F in front of me. Have a look at :-
Division 2 - Part 111 (Optional Lamps)
Front Fog Lamps
40. (a)
(1)
(11)
(b)
(1)
(11)
(111)
Even the draft copy of the ARR's mentioned a maximum wattage for front fog lamps
of 7 watts, for vehicles registered prior to a certain year. (1979?? or 89??)
However, the final release of the ARR's omitted the wattage restriction for Front Fog lamps
so you can therefore legally use ANY wattage fog lamps, as long as they comply with other
conditions. IE: Not less than 600mm apart, equidistant from the centreline of the vehicle etc...
Spooky !!!!
Spooky
"Jeremy, Kathy & Clan" <jp...@wxc.com.au> wrote in message news:8o4fat$bg3$1...@merki.connect.com.au...
It's quite clear in the ARR's and ADR's that forward facing fog lamps may have either
white or amber lens', so it's no an issue is it?
As far as being panalised for use of same? Well, yes, I have personally penalised many drivers for
"miss"use
of same. IE: having them on when there is no fog. The bright yellow ones especially are a
distraction to oncoming motorists on a clear night.
Spooky
Jeremy, Kathy & Clan
The Taipan <sim...@powerup.com.au> wrote in message news:39a5bca8@grissom...
> But what if the manufacturer calls them "driving lights"?
>
> I think Qld law refers to "extra" lights...
Hi Taipan,-
'Driving lights' - Often, the advertising agencies forget or omit details
from their clients brochures. Usually because of a breakdown in
communication between client and customer. Often individuals with the
manufacturing company don't know either and yet have the job of advising the
ad agency 'of what goes in ya know'.
Here, in your example, it is feasible that 'someone' assumes these are
'driving lights' simply because they have a clear lens. (Gee, it aint
yellow - must be driving lights) "Ignorance" we know. Your complaint is
appropriate. If the claim is from a salesman or saleswoman, -they are
wrong. Correcting them, particularly with male sales staff get up their
noses. Too bad.
Just remember to check the type of lamp by the 'approval' marking on the
lens. Driving light = HR. Front fog = 02B, here the 'B' or 'b' is the key.
(The 'H' or 'h' always means halogen, a 'p' or 'P' means the unit has a
plastic lens).
A front fog light, correctly aligned in accordance with the ADR's and the
Vehicle Standards can be of general driving benefit at night, though illegal
in clear conditions of course.
The Australian Road Rules has an operating error in relation to the use of
front fog lights at night. More later, about October 2000.
On 'Extra lights', QLD follows the ARR and the ADR's of course.
Knowing the codes allows you some consumer protection, it is a good lesson
for the police out there. Buy and use only approved lamps.
Regards,
Jeremy H. Pritchard
Motoriste Advocaat
jp...@wxc.com.au
Jeremy, Kathy & Clan
>
> "Jeremy, Kathy & Clan" <jp...@wxc.com.au> wrote in message
news:8o4fat$bg3$1...@merki.connect.com.au...
> >
> > lemon_tree <lemon_treeeeeeeeeee@lemon_treeeee.com> wrote in message
> > news:kO4p5.351$cr3....@ozemail.com.au...
> > > The road rules changed last year Decemeber and (well in NSW but I
think
> > they
> > > are trying to Unify the whole states to one common law) it did not
specify
> > > whether or not it was illegal or not so there is a loophole there in
the
> > > act. It mearly states that the lights on the car must not be used to
> > dazzle
> > > other road users (Section 219) and that you may use fog lights without
low
> > > beam when in foggy or adverse conditions (Section 215).
> > >
> > > Rear fog lights on the other hand got a special mention and was deemed
> > > illegal unless in foggy conditions. (Section 217)
> > >
> > > Previously, the only state to allow WHITE fog lights was Victoria.
(SPOOKY)
Hello Spooky,
No of course not, not at all. I was refering to the Victorian question and
was querying the possibility that drivers (in VIC) may have been penalised
for having yellow fog lights. You and I know this would not (likely)
happen. If the respondent said yes, I would merely point out the ADR front
fog requirement,- as a start of a defence. Again, as we know 'unlikely',
hence my questioning. (See 'SPOOKY' above to indicate where I am
discussing)
> As far as being panalised for use of same? Well, yes, I have personally
penalised many drivers for
> "miss"use
> of same. IE: having them on when there is no fog.
I am not disputing the enforcement of front fog light usage in law. (Except
an ARR error I am dealing with).
The bright yellow ones especially are a
> distraction to oncoming motorists on a clear night.
Agree. If the yellow fog light is 'aftermarket', is it 'E' or 'e' marked on
the lens? If not, it does not necessarily comply with the ADR's.
K-Mart sell for example 'fog lights' which have a yellow lens 'Tourismo' and
a single orange version - Pro?, both are not approved, exhibit excessive
glare and have inappropriate beam patterns. One is sold with 100watt bulbs.
These 'junk' lamps give the real McCoy a bad name. Lamps such as these are
the real 'glaries'.
Remember, the Design Rule limits this wattage to 55 watts for MA category.
(cars, 4wd etc) 75watts @24 volts, which is still the *same luminance level
as a 12 volt setup.
Spooky, take a close look at these E-markings on the lens. Simply again, an
aftermarket lamp without an E is not an approved lamp and should be avoided.
Unless it is specifically ADR marked, unlikely.
More later.
Spooky
"Jeremy, Kathy & Clan" <jp...@wxc.com.au> wrote in message news:8o4rul$p3d$1...@merki.connect.com.au...
Ok, yep, gotcha...
>
>
>
> > As far as being panalised for use of same? Well, yes, I have personally
> penalised many drivers for
> > "miss"use
> > of same. IE: having them on when there is no fog.
>
> I am not disputing the enforcement of front fog light usage in law. (Except
> an ARR error I am dealing with).
>
>
> The bright yellow ones especially are a
> > distraction to oncoming motorists on a clear night.
>
> Agree. If the yellow fog light is 'aftermarket', is it 'E' or 'e' marked on
> the lens? If not, it does not necessarily comply with the ADR's.
>
> K-Mart sell for example 'fog lights' which have a yellow lens 'Tourismo' and
> a single orange version - Pro?, both are not approved, exhibit excessive
> glare and have inappropriate beam patterns. One is sold with 100watt bulbs.
> These 'junk' lamps give the real McCoy a bad name. Lamps such as these are
> the real 'glaries'.
>
> Remember, the Design Rule limits this wattage to 55 watts for MA category.
> (cars, 4wd etc) 75watts @24 volts, which is still the *same luminance level
> as a 12 volt setup.
>
> Spooky, take a close look at these E-markings on the lens. Simply again, an
> aftermarket lamp without an E is not an approved lamp and should be avoided.
> Unless it is specifically ADR marked, unlikely.
Not sure where that makes us stand though...is it a defect? I would suggest it is. However, the
question will be,
"How come they sell them to us then?"..
:))))
Daryl Walford
which are brighter tham most driving lights.
The dickheads who shine them in my direction become aware of my dislike
for these things when the 2 130 watt driving lights on my Landcruiser
get turned on.
It would be much simpler if all fog lights were amber.
Daryl
Jeremy, Kathy & Clan
Spooky,
(Love to see this text again, it's been some time. The schedule F is of
course outdated now).
Sorry, I was referring to the 'old' NSW Motor Traffic Regulations - Division
4, 95 part (6) which read; "No person shall cause or permit:
(i) any fog lamp affixed to a motor vehicle upon a public street to be
lighted except in fog, mist or under other atmospheric conditions which
reduce visibility;
(ii) a single fog lamp affixed to the front of a motor vehicle, other than a
motor cycle, upon a public street, to be lighted unless two additional lamps
required under paragraph 40 (a) (ii) of Schedule F to these Regulations are
also lighted.
Here, the reference to the 'two additional lamps' refers to what we call
the 'sidelights', or as Aussies would say "parkers". Under the ADR at the
time and as now, these are set at 5 watts. The Schedule at this point I
recall specified 7watts as a safe 'margin'.
In any case you could read (i) to mean if you have your two front fog lights
on, you needn't use your sidelights. Except that of course, the ADR and its
'state' reinforcement legislation elsewhere dictates appropriately that the
sidelights must remain on. Again, (ii) is merely reinforcement of this
procedure.
I would venture to suggest the reference may be referring to the sidelights.
If there is direct NSW historical evidence that the front fog lights must
not be greater than 7 watts, the 'author' would be the laughing stock at the
annual meeting of the ECE Light and Light Signalling Experts. We can gather
from threads above, some are not impressed.
Doesn't really matter in any case now, but is of interesting historical
value. I remember back in 1994 a conversation with NRTC about wattages. I
pointed out that it is was surely not the purpose for the Road Rules to
specify wattages, merely usage, and that the agency responsible for Federal
Standards is FORS.
Spooky, again, if your able I'd appreciate the text for amusement.
Any queries or suggestions on lighting get to your Cmdr Ron S. The next NSW
Parliamentary Reg Review is set for Oct 9? After the Olympics.
The wattages are set by ADR requirement. An issue for you consider perhaps
is vis "Does a NSW officer enforce an ADR"? Consider that we have an
approved front fog light, yet excessive glare, the driver may have put 100
or 130watt bulbs in the unit.
A road safety concern you'll agree, glare, distortion of the beam for the
driver - a critical issue for a foglamp in fog, added distraction for
oncoming drivers etc. With a front fog lamp one needs to reduce glare, not
increase it in fog.
The reverse can apply to a driving light. Here the extra wattage and
resultant output can be of benefit, providing of course the driver is using
the lamp appropriately & legally. These lamps are 'approved' at 55 watts.
Strictly speaking, exceeding 55watts with these 'breaks' the approval. A
minor issue in this regard I suggest.
R.
Speak again,
Jeremy H. Pritchard
Motorist Advocate
jp...@wxc.com.au
Bernd Felsche
>Must be a bloody lot of fog in Japan if they need fog lamps that big
>which are brighter tham most driving lights.
They are AFAIK still only 55W. The lighting specialists will tell
you that the glare to oncoming traffic is reduced for oncoming
traffic is reduced with a larger emitting area for the same total
light output (same for other headlights). The larger lenses also mean
that the back-glare from fog is less.
>The dickheads who shine them in my direction become aware of my dislike
>for these things when the 2 130 watt driving lights on my Landcruiser
>get turned on.
Compliant, aligned fog lights will not shine into oncoming traffic.
>It would be much simpler if all fog lights were amber.
More confusing. The reason for the yellow tint is to reduce the
back-glare. Check out rec.autos.driving and read the postings by
Daniel Stern.
>Daryl
Spooky
"Jeremy, Kathy & Clan" <jp...@wxc.com.au> wrote in message news:8o56ig$c3b$1...@merki.connect.com.au...
>
> Spooky,
Replied to by email....jpg of relevent shedule F scan attached.
Jeremy, Kathy & Clan
Spooky,
> > Spooky, take a close look at these E-markings on the lens. Simply
again, an
> > aftermarket lamp without an E is not an approved lamp and should be
avoided.
> > Unless it is specifically ADR marked, unlikely.
>
> Not sure where that makes us stand though...is it a defect? I would
suggest it is. However, the
> question will be,
> "How come they sell them to us then?"..
> :))))
Agreed. The non approved lamps as far as I am concerned are a defect. Any
leniency for a vehicle where the 'fog' lamp is used, but is not 'approved'
lays, in the particular circumstance of the lamp concerned. For example,
the wattage may comply, the wiring, the mounting, may comply. But, the beam
pattern and 'glare' may be attrocious, hence your original action. Remember
also the anti glare Road Rule. No lamp shall cause undue glare.
You may wish to educate drivers to read the 'e' mark before buying, it will
help them avoid the pitfalls of sub standard units. (Study these markings
yourself first, you will see in the auto shops, mislabelled products, like
clear front fog lights sold as driving lights. Gee, a low 50 metre range
but a great wide beam pattern, I wonder why? etc) I doubt a 17 year old (or
any age for that matter) at K-Mart knows this stuff.
Some of these non approved aftermarket fog and driving lamps cost many
hundreds, yet are garbage performers and have ludicrous claims. For
example, "fog/spot lamp" or "fog/driving lamp" - where it is a single bulb
unit! A spot or driving light has of course very different characteristics
to an approved front 'fog lamp'. Legitimate combination fog and driving
lights exist, they have separate bulbs and obviously compartments. One
approved version has a light blue lens for effect (for the riceboys?).
Emits a white light of course, would not be approved ECE otherwise.
(UNECE).
The approval markings are a stamp of photometric quality. Companies pay
good money for the testing to ensure compliance.
The issue is a consumer affairs one that potentially obviously impacts road
safety. (Thats you) Two years ago I wrote to the Fair Trading Minster, who
forwarded it to the Police Minister W., then to the Minister for Transport.
Nothing heard for a while, received a letter, 'investigating' I suspect I
was too technical and will resubmit, on the other hand, my 'timing' in light
of the ARR (last 7 years) was not all appropriate.
You could say, as is the effect, light items on a vehicle must comply with
the ADR's and where applicable the Motor Vehicle Standards and act
accordingly. You might wan't to make representations to CMDR R. S to get a
confirmed course of action.
Sometimes it is legal to sell a product, yet not legal to use it. Refer
those that complain to Consumer Affairs, they may wish to return the lamps
to the place of purchase for a refund. They 'have' to be of merchandisable
quality.
Incidentially, and off topic, I think it is ADR 44 - 'special provisions',
that allows police and emergency vehicles to use a lamp designed for one
purpose, to use said lamp for 'another'. For example, Many ambulance
vehicles, SES, VRA units have rear fog lights wired and mounted at the
front - for use as 'flashers'.
The 'E' mark code here (rear fog) is F00. (Old units were B00)
Jeremy, Kathy & Clan
Daryl,-
> Must be a bloody lot of fog in Japan if they need fog lamps that big
> which are brighter tham most driving lights.
> The dickheads who shine them in my direction become aware of my dislike
> for these things when the 2 130 watt driving lights on my Landcruiser
> get turned on.
> It would be much simpler if all fog lights were amber.
The Hella handbook states 'that with a yellow lens the driver loses about
15% of luminance, as compared to a clear optic unit of same construction,
but, that yellow may be perceived as 'softer' to the approaching eye, which
does not however make up for the subjective loss of luminance offered by the
clear unit'.
Did the offending vehicle have the 'asia' only driving lights added, having
removed the 'original' clear fogs. In which case the driver probably used
the orignal fog wiring - a problem; or
The units were aligned 'up' in an attempt to achieve a 'driving light'.
I suspect alignment, consider a minor mishap - front end damage, do the
repairers align the lights? Not always. Come to think of it, do they
replace seat belts as the manufacturers say - no.
Merely a possibility.
Advise the driver to activate them with just the sidelights, thereby
reducing the low beam glare. Keep em' for rain, fog, snow or rural driving.
Cheers.
J
jp...@wxc.com.au
Daryl Walford
almost getting lost in heavy fog in the bush.
Funny thing is we haven't had any fog heavy enough since to warrant
their use.
I think we need an education campaign about correct use of lights.
When anyone can walk into any shop that sells auto parts and buy sub
standard lights its about time people became aware of the regulations.
Maybe the sellers of these products should have to display a sign about
correct fitment and use and the penalties for non compliance.
Daryl
"Jeremy, Kathy & Clan" wrote:
>
> Daryl,-
>
> > Must be a bloody lot of fog in Japan if they need fog lamps that big
> > which are brighter tham most driving lights.
> > The dickheads who shine them in my direction become aware of my dislike
> > for these things when the 2 130 watt driving lights on my Landcruiser
> > get turned on.
> > It would be much simpler if all fog lights were amber.
>
Jeremy, Kathy & Clan
Daryl Walford <wal...@primus.com.au> wrote in message
news:39A64355...@primus.com.au...
> I fitted yellow fog lamps to the Landcruiser several years ago after
> almost getting lost in heavy fog in the bush.
> Funny thing is we haven't had any fog heavy enough since to warrant
> their use.
It'll be back, hate the stuff. I'd rather have them (the lights) and not
have to use them.
> I think we need an education campaign about correct use of lights.
> When anyone can walk into any shop that sells auto parts and buy sub
> standard lights its about time people became aware of the regulations.
> Maybe the sellers of these products should have to display a sign about
> correct fitment and use and the penalties for non compliance.
D,-
Yes true. This ng helps. Remember the 'E' markings, good consumer
protection if you know. The sales 'experts' get it wrong on this stuff
daily. Test them, I do. (Fog light above the 'E' mark is a letter = B, eg
02B.).
You might like to consider the combined use of a rear fog light and hazard
warning lights on a Mitsubishi Pajero I saw on the F6 in heavy fog recently.
You see the rear fog before the hazard lights by at least 2-3 seconds.
Point is the driver should have kept the hazard lights off, yet it is legal.
The intention was/is to allow hazards as an alternative, where there is no
rear fog.
I'd like to kill that hazards allowance.
Regards again.
Jeremy Pritchard
jp...@wxc.com.au
Bernd Felsche
>> Must be a bloody lot of fog in Japan if they need fog lamps that big
>> which are brighter tham most driving lights.
>> The dickheads who shine them in my direction become aware of my dislike
>> for these things when the 2 130 watt driving lights on my Landcruiser
>> get turned on.
>> It would be much simpler if all fog lights were amber.
>The Hella handbook states 'that with a yellow lens the driver loses about
>15% of luminance, as compared to a clear optic unit of same construction,
>but, that yellow may be perceived as 'softer' to the approaching eye, which
>does not however make up for the subjective loss of luminance offered by the
>clear unit'.
>Did the offending vehicle have the 'asia' only driving lights added, having
>removed the 'original' clear fogs. In which case the driver probably used
>the orignal fog wiring - a problem; or
>The units were aligned 'up' in an attempt to achieve a 'driving light'.
>I suspect alignment, consider a minor mishap - front end damage, do the
>repairers align the lights? Not always. Come to think of it, do they
Not always? Hardly ever. They had my driving lights hooked up to the
parking light circuit when I picked up the car after repairs.
Apparently they have no qualms about putting an unroadworthy car
back into traffic. Took me all of 3 seconds to figure out that there
was a problem, but their 'sparkies' didn't notice for a week, even
though they'd completely mangled the harness, crossing colour-coded
wires, etc... The biggest insult was that I'd provided them with
the current flow diagrams for the correct wiring.
They also attempted to 'fix' a broken Hella projector fog light
housing with Silastic. (They get VERY hot after just a few minutes.)
Insurance job: Put the monkeys to work. e.g. They tried to charge a
new battery; without any acid in the battery.
I listed 3 pages of defects (60) after the "repairs". About a dozen
were safety-related. And they had the car for 9 weeks, to do about
60 hours of work...
I shudder at the thought of how most owners know so little about
their cars, that they just drive the cars off the forecourt with
defects built in due to sloppy repairs.
>replace seat belts as the manufacturers say - no.
I noticed and complained to the repairer when the seat belt wasn't
replaced. They referred me to the insurance company as the insurance
assessor refused to pay. I sent them a fax and they coughed up for
both front seat belts the next day; only the driver's was in use at
the time of the crash... sample letter follows.
>Merely a possibility.
>Advise the driver to activate them with just the sidelights,
>thereby reducing the low beam glare. Keep em' for rain, fog, snow
>or rural driving.
>Cheers.
>J
>jp...@wxc.com.au
Sample letter ... this may work for you ... Names changed.
TO: Chief Claims Assessor, Motor Vehicle Claims
DESTINATION: Stingy Insurance Company
CC: Dodgy Smash Repairs
SENT BY: Bernd Felsche
DATE: Tue Apr 29
=====================================================================
re: Claim xxxxxxxxxx - Volkswagen Golf
It has been brought to my attention by the repairer that you do
not wish to pay for a replacement driver's seat belt in my vehicle
which was involved in an accident on January 24th of this year.
I draw your attention to the following excerpt from the Australian
addendum of the vehicle owner's manual, especially the third-last
paragraph. The manufacturer does not accept any responsiblity for
the integrity of the safety device after an accident.
Your representative "examined" the seat belt and deemed it not to
be necessary to replace; therefore accepting liability for death
or injury which may be sustained as a result of dysfunction of the
restraint system in a future accident.
Should you wish to review your previous decision, please discuss
appropriate reimbursement with the repairer.
Please acknowledge receipt of this message by return fax within 24
hours.
Regards,
Bernd Felsche
>I fitted yellow fog lamps to the Landcruiser several years ago after
>almost getting lost in heavy fog in the bush.
>Funny thing is we haven't had any fog heavy enough since to warrant
>their use.
They work! Don't knock it. :-)
>I think we need an education campaign about correct use of lights.
>When anyone can walk into any shop that sells auto parts and buy sub
>standard lights its about time people became aware of the regulations.
>Maybe the sellers of these products should have to display a sign about
>correct fitment and use and the penalties for non compliance.
Informed customers are confused customers. Or non-customers as they
don't buy anything if they can't make up their mind.
It would be better to have the non-compliant lights labelled clearly
with "NOT FOR USE ON PUBLIC ROADS" and in smaller print below,
stating why - i.e. does not meet Australian Design Rule XX and in
smaller print "It's shit, mate!"
>Daryl
>"Jeremy, Kathy & Clan" wrote:
>>
>> Daryl,-
>>
>> > Must be a bloody lot of fog in Japan if they need fog lamps that big
>> > which are brighter tham most driving lights.
>> > The dickheads who shine them in my direction become aware of my dislike
>> > for these things when the 2 130 watt driving lights on my Landcruiser
>> > get turned on.
>> > It would be much simpler if all fog lights were amber.
>>
>> The Hella handbook states 'that with a yellow lens the driver loses about
>> 15% of luminance, as compared to a clear optic unit of same construction,
>> but, that yellow may be perceived as 'softer' to the approaching eye, which
>> does not however make up for the subjective loss of luminance offered by the
>> clear unit'.
>>
>> Did the offending vehicle have the 'asia' only driving lights added, having
>> removed the 'original' clear fogs. In which case the driver probably used
>> the orignal fog wiring - a problem; or
>>
>> The units were aligned 'up' in an attempt to achieve a 'driving light'.
>>
>> I suspect alignment, consider a minor mishap - front end damage, do the
>> repairers align the lights? Not always. Come to think of it, do they
>> replace seat belts as the manufacturers say - no.
>>
>> Merely a possibility.
>>
>> Advise the driver to activate them with just the sidelights, thereby
>> reducing the low beam glare. Keep em' for rain, fog, snow or rural driving.
>>
>> Cheers.
>> J
>> jp...@wxc.com.au
lemon_tree
(the Scandinavian countries and NZ from memory but pls correct me on this
one). This should certainly confuse things.
"Daryl Walford" <wal...@primus.com.au> wrote in message
news:39A60F47...@primus.com.au...
Martin Taylor
DW> I fitted yellow fog lamps to the Landcruiser several years ago after
DW> almost getting lost in heavy fog in the bush.
DW> Funny thing is we haven't had any fog heavy enough since to warrant
DW> their use.
I don't think that the purpose of fog lights is to allow you to see.
It's to allow other vehicles to see you. This shouldn't be a problem up
the bush...
DW> I think we need an education campaign about correct use of lights.
Hear, hear. People who use parkers while driving in marginal lighting
conditions, or who don't have any lights at all, particularly in fog, or
who run around with those useless auxillary lights thats like the
Commodore SS and WRXes have, switched on.
.. You can always tell luck from ability by its duration.
MJT
Take a "p" out of bigppond for an email reply
Gippsland, Victoria, Australia
Daryl Walford
The flat low beam from the fog lights is supposed to shine under the
fog.
The fog was so thick on the night I was refering to, one of us had to
walk in front of the car just to stay on the road.
Haven't seem fog like it since I fitted the lights so maybe I should
call them anti fog lights :-).
Daryl
Danny Rohr
> I think its both.
> The flat low beam from the fog lights is supposed to shine under the
> fog.
> The fog was so thick on the night I was refering to, one of us had to
> walk in front of the car just to stay on the road.
> Haven't seem fog like it since I fitted the lights so maybe I should
> call them anti fog lights :-).
I agree, the low wide spead beam really does help you see in the fog. You
need to turn off your headlights aswell. It doesn't exactly make it like
the fog is not there, but for the distance you can see, you can see well.
My fog lights are clear, but I hear the yellow ones are supposed to help by
not refecting as much light. You can now get "All Weather" 55w globes to
fit your clear foglights that are yellowish in colour if you are interested
in trying those. At least they don't look ugly when they are not on.
> Daryl
>
>
> Martin Taylor wrote:
> >
> > Daryl Walford said..
> > I don't think that the purpose of fog lights is to allow you to see.
> > It's to allow other vehicles to see you. This shouldn't be a problem up
> > the bush...
Rubbish, normal headlights could acheive that. You are thinking of the rear
foglight/s.
> > DW> I think we need an education campaign about correct use of lights.
> >
> > Hear, hear. People who use parkers while driving in marginal lighting
> > conditions, or who don't have any lights at all, particularly in fog, or
> > who run around with those useless auxillary lights thats like the
> > Commodore SS and WRXes have, switched on.
+ Lancer MR, + Pulsar SSS + heaps of cars today.
But your not really supposed to run the fog lights AND headlights at the
same time, that the idea.
Danny.
Martin Taylor
> > I don't think that the purpose of fog lights is to allow you to see.
> > It's to allow other vehicles to see you. This shouldn't be a problem up
> > the bush...
DR> Rubbish, normal headlights could acheive that. You are thinking of
DR> the rear foglight/s.
No, I'm thinking of normal headlights, and/or foglights. We had this
argument a while back, here, and all it achieved, I think was to have a
number of different opinions posted on the subject.
And as far as this chap's concerned with driving up the bush, on a 4WD
track, it wouldn't really matter what sort of lights he has on. Firstly,
the chances of meeting another vehicle coming the other way are slim,
And secondly, given the nature of off road tracks, particularly in
mountainous country, the lights would not provide much visibility. In
any case, it's safer to wait until the fog lifts. It's not pleasant,
missing a hairpin turn and ending up 300 metre down a ravine. Almost
been there, done that, once or twice. Mostly on trailbikes, but once with
a mate in his Landcruiser. Quite scary.
Suffice it to say, any form of light, other than parkers, is better than
no lights at all, in fog.
During winter, I go to work around 6.30am, when it's dark and usually
foggy. During spring, it's generally light, but still foggy. Therefore I
have a good deal of experience in driving, or riding the bike in fog.
I've never found any combination or style of light that allows me to see
any further into fog, during daylight hours, than having no lights on.
However, it does enhance my visibility to others in such conditions.
Lights on high beam merely produce enough reflection or glare back off
the fog so as to make the light useless. Yellow fog lights supposedly
make you more visible in fog. It's hard to say these days, as I've not
seen any cars fitted with yellow fog lamps.
I live in country Victoria. My driving in city conditions is minimal, in
such conditions. Therefore, I don't know what sort of fog Melbourne or
Sydney experiences, whether it's heavy or light, or that it lingers well
into the morning, like it does out here, at times.
DR> But your not really supposed to run the fog lights AND headlights at
DR> the same time, that the idea.
Yes, I know. But people do. Or they run them during daylight hours, in
perfect visibility, as running lights. I s'pose it makes them feel
safer. Dunno if it does anything, really. Lots of arguments for and
against "lights on" driving/riding.
.. Don't believe in miracles - rely on them