a bit OT - car engines in boats.
jackbadger56
our boat as the twin SD33's are pretty tired. I was thinking (just
thinking!) that fitting modern twin 4cyl turbo-diesels would be worth
exploring. We've yet to get quotes on the Nissans but I'm sure it will
cost a fortune simply because it's for a marine application (diesel
fuel at all the marinas in Pittwater charge about $1.70 per litre, to
give you an idea of what they can get away with). If we were to use a
heat-exchanger set-up rather than pumping seawater through them, would
you really need to do a great deal of modification for marine use? The
'engine room' (wow, that sounds grand!) is pretty well sealed and
there is heaps of room, so maybe any computers etc can be located well
out of harms way. Two of the marine mechanics I've put this to seem to
think it should be OK in theory, but had never put any thought into
it, as they had never been asked. They weren't keen on the idea
basically, but couldn't really give me a reason why. Has anyone here
had experience in fitting stock car engines into boats? If so, do you
think this is feasible?
BTW I've looked for an 'Aus.Boats' to ask this, but am also interested
in what 'car-heads' think of this idea. Traditional boaties are just
too blinded by......well........tradition, and would be horrified at the
thought of doing this to a 60yo Halvorsen (despite the fact that it
currently has Nissan truck motors, which in turn replaced a pair of
Holden sixes!)
JD
There are and have been many "marine" engines that are just this -
conversions of car engines. The major changes are usually fitting a water
cooled exhaust manifold, which will usually have to be designed and made
for the specific engine, and a heat exchanger cooling system. If using a
turbo diesel as proposed, the water cooling would be downstream of the
turbo, and the presence of the turbocharger is likely to require some
thought as to cooling the engine space, possibly forced ventilation. Apart
from this and marrying the marine gearbox to the motor, the major concern
would be keeping the automotive electrics including the ecus dry in a
generally humid and salty atmosphere, but it could be done. Thought would
also be needed to ensure that the engine's lubrication will always be
functioning in heavy seas or, in the case of sailing vessels, when heeled.
The overall cost may well end up more than that that of a similar marine
engine, unless you are doing the work yourself using second hand car
engines.
JD
D Walford
wonder about it being cost effective.
The cost of purchasing and marinising two late model 4cyl TD's may not
be a hell of a lot cheaper than buying engines made for the job.
Have you shopped around for engine prices?
It may be possible to reuse your existing heat exchangers etc and if you
can do that then it may be cheaper to use car/truck engines.
Daryl
John McKenzie
If fuelling is the main issue, what sort of power are you in need of
(and what sort of rpm, or do you have propellor options? I've got to be
inclined to think that a pair of 'somethings' on lpg would have to run
cheaper. it's not too hard to rig up a trailer with the right fittings
so you can fill 2-4 tanks on it, then run it back and put them in the
boat, similar but on a larger scale than forklift tanks. I have nfi as
to the legality, but I'd be looking into it keenly. It's likely the
cheapest by double to run per km, of course the setup cost might not be
choice. Then again, you might get away with a pair of holdens again, or
something. Maybe a pair of older ford 6s, reasonable torque if not so
rev happy.
--
John McKenzie
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Blue Heeler
fitting a car engine to a boat.
Used to be a time honoured tradition - lots of Austin/Morris engines
had "marinising" kits available, and Vauxhaul side valve engines were
sold (with a few mods dealt with below) for years after they were no
longer fitted to cars.
Likewise Mercury has had car sourced 6 and 8 cyl engines in it's
"inboard" powerpacks in the past.
What do you need?
Depending on the engine (how much alloy is in the cooling circuit)
decided whether you use a closed circuit fresh water cooling system
with some sort of intercoolign arrangement, or just pump raw seawater
through it (perfectly safe with cast iron engines with cast iron water
pumps).
Next you need to make arrangements for getting oil out, a standpipe one
the side of the sump out of which you can suck the engine oil will
suffice, otherwise you get to let it all go into the bilge.
Water cooled exhaust manifold, these keep your exhaust temps down, and
also provide a ready source of hot water for distribution to internal
services like galleys and heads.
Modified flywheels to adapt to standard clutches etc for gear boxes.
Modified carb as the engine may well see attitudes it was never
intended to see in a car.
Ignition - the traiditon way was to fit a magneto, but this is probably
no longer necessery given that other forms of electronic ignition are
now more reliable.
anythgn else anyone?
--
Andy
I'm genuinely surprised no-one has suggested a 350 Chev on LPG :-)
Cheers,
Andy. (t'other Andy.)
bugalugs
I'd be very wary of gas. Any leaking into an enclosed space could build
up concentration levels to produce a mighty BOOM
Andy
> I'd be very wary of gas. Any leaking into an enclosed space could build
> up concentration levels to produce a mighty BOOM
Much like petrol and it's vapour.
Graham Fountain
"jackbadger56" <cast...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1172199633....@8g2000cwh.googlegroups.com...
a ski boat powered by a pair of turboed 13B rotaries. Went like the
proverbial shower of excrement.
Cyborg 0019
Yeah large capacity v8 is pretty common,always thought of building a
boat,but every time I thought of what might happen when I put a holden 6
into my row boat ,I found myself doing something more contructive to
pass the time.
Jason James
"D Walford" <wal...@iprimus.com.au> wrote in message
news:45de7304$0$500$61c6...@uq-127creek-reader-03.brisbane.pipenetworks.com.au...
> wonder about it being cost effective.
> The cost of purchasing and marinising two late model 4cyl TD's may not
> be a hell of a lot cheaper than buying engines made for the job.
> Have you shopped around for engine prices?
> It may be possible to reuse your existing heat exchangers etc and if you
> can do that then it may be cheaper to use car/truck engines.
Remember the stern-drive Valiant Hemi combo photos, used in advertising by I
think, the stern-drive company involved (Volvo?), back in the '70s? If it
has been done before, it can be done again.
Jason
D Walford
> I'd be very wary of gas. Any leaking into an enclosed space could build
> up concentration levels to produce a mighty BOOM
Thats the exact same reason I wouldn't have an inboard petrol engine in
a boat, petrol is no safer than gas.
Diesel is the only thing to use in that application.
Daryl
Fraser Johnston
"Cyborg 0019" <jjb...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:45de...@news.comindico.com.au...
> Yeah large capacity v8 is pretty common,always thought of building a boat,but
> every time I thought of what might happen when I put a holden 6 into my row
> boat ,I found myself doing something more contructive to pass the time.
Posting incomprehensible shit on usenet?
Fraser
Noddy
"Fraser Johnston" <fra...@jcis.com.au> wrote in message
news:5488o7F...@mid.individual.net...
> Posting incomprehensible shit on usenet?
Lol :)
I thought that was Atec's job :)
--
Regards,
Noddy.
Kev
this would be no harder than what has been done previously to your boat
and you can make a water intercooler as well
biggest expense would probably be the custom made stainless water cooled
exhaust
Kev
Cyborg 0019
Yeah, was actually building one of those really fast ones,think I
mentioned it on rec.boats.building about 3-4 years ago
Got somewhat of the way with a fibreglass half,then found out that I
needed a boat licence to drive it when completed and possibly a hole lot
of certification rubbish,so gave up,think it is still sitting in the
backyard of the house we had.
Gone are the days of setting sail on the high seas at 300kph.
Also found out there was a speed limit in the bay,killed all inspiration.
went back to usnet.
Scotty
why boaties dont run with auto gearboxs behind the motors instead of fixed
range boxes. I mean that once on place you could knock a gear or two up and
cruise at higher speeds without reviing the motor.
Im not boatie (only ever sailed or had outboards) so not sure about what the
reasons are/nt for this set up but Im curious.
JD
Basically, the resistance the boat has to face is pretty constant for a
given speed, so there is not much requirement for different ratios - there
are no hills to climb! The propeller function itself allows reasonable
efficiency over a wide range of speeds from stationary, so the need for
lower gears to start off is mimimal.
If different ratios are wanted, a variable pitch propeller is more useful
and simpler and probably cheaper.
JD
Noddy
"JD" <j...@spamlesstpgi.com.au> wrote in message
news:45df...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
> Basically, the resistance the boat has to face is pretty constant for a
> given speed, so there is not much requirement for different ratios - there
> are no hills to climb! The propeller function itself allows reasonable
> efficiency over a wide range of speeds from stationary, so the need for
> lower gears to start off is mimimal.
> If different ratios are wanted, a variable pitch propeller is more useful
> and simpler and probably cheaper.
I'm no boat expert, and while that all makes sense to me I have seen boats
with automatic transmissions fitted. Powerglides mainly, in large uber quick
speedboats/raceboats with 500+hp engines.
Apparently it gives them an acceleration edge, and makes maneuvering at very
low speeds a lot easier.
--
Regards,
Noddy.
JD
Yes, that would make sense, where you want to optimise acceleration for
boats with a very high power to weight ratio (and high top speed)- even
there, variable pitch propellers would be better, but for this sort of
power would be much more expensive and a lot harder to find than automotive
automatic transmissions. But a fairly limited application.
JD
eeviil inc.
engines as a base, obviously modified for marine use. And they have for
many years. So it wouldn't surprise me a bit if it was in fact a Volvo ad.
Nice way to repower a 2 series Volvo, with genuine Volvo V8 motivation :D
Getting OT I remember when I was quite young, a relative gave an old
yacht a new lease on life. Had a very old Perkins 4cyl diesel, and a
single speed slushbox. Turned out the bolt pattern on the Perkins was
identical to a Holden 6. I still wished I remembered more about the box,
as I still find it unusual. It appears it was a marine box, and the gear
selector had forward, neutral and reverse.
Adam
JD
had one of those myself forty years ago, except it was a three cylinder
Perkins. Box was a standard marine one, as you say, forward, neutral,
reverse by a small lever that actuated the hydraulic application of
epicyclic gears, giving a 2:1 reduction both forward and reverse. Probably
not very accurate to call it a slushbox as there was no torque converter.
Can't remember the brand of gearbox. Most marine applications need a
reduction gear for the propeller.
JD
Jason James
"eeviil inc." <im...@there.net> wrote in message
news:45e04d63$0$16556$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
Interesting idea using an auto. Easy drive reversal, and (speculating now)
maybe less cavitation if you also included a TConv for those quick launches?
The adjustable cav-plate wouldnt be necessary.
Jason
D Walford
> had one of those myself forty years ago, except it was a three cylinder
> Perkins. Box was a standard marine one, as you say, forward, neutral,
> reverse by a small lever that actuated the hydraulic application of
> epicyclic gears, giving a 2:1 reduction both forward and reverse. Probably
> not very accurate to call it a slushbox as there was no torque converter.
> Can't remember the brand of gearbox. Most marine applications need a
> reduction gear for the propeller.
I did my apprenticeship with a Perkins diesel dealership so I
occasionally got to do a bit of work on marine engines (I mostly worked
on tractors and machinery).
I can't remember ever putting a spanner on one of those transmissions
because nothing ever went wrong with them.
IMO replacing a diesel with a petrol engine in a yacht is crazy and
asking for trouble from dangerous petrol fumes.
Daryl
jackbadger56
My goal is not to do it cheaper, but to utilise better engines than
what is readily available from marine-engine manufacturers. Things
like common rail injection etc have yet to filter down to 'common'
marine diesels, I.E. the more affordable ones. I'd be very keen to do
some of it myself, but finding a marine mechanic who will look at the
end result and assess it on its merits rather than trying to find a
way of earning more for themselves is the hard part.
jackbadger56
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The current engines run happiest at about 1800rpm (7 knots), but I
suspect it's still fitted with propellers more suited to a 2500-3000
rpm cruise (again, an assumption that this is where Holden sixes would
be happy). I haven't really put much thought into gearbox's and would
like, if practical, to keep the current ones and change the propellers
so the new engines would also be able to cruise at <2000rpm.
jackbadger56
> John McKenzie wrote:
>
> fitting a car engine to a boat.
>
> Used to be a time honoured tradition - lots of Austin/Morris engines
> had "marinising" kits available, and Vauxhaul side valve engines were
> sold (with a few mods dealt with below) for years after they were no
> longer fitted to cars.
>
> Likewise Mercury has had car sourced 6 and 8 cyl engines in it's
> "inboard" powerpacks in the past.
>
> What do you need?
>
> Depending on the engine (how much alloy is in the cooling circuit)
> decided whether you use a closed circuit fresh water cooling system
> with some sort of intercoolign arrangement, or just pump raw seawater
> through it (perfectly safe with cast iron engines with cast iron water
> pumps).
I was thinking of using heat exchangers, which I'm guessing (doing a
lot of that, which is why I thought I'd post this) is an arrangement
where a sea water cooler cools a sealed freshwater system.
>
> Next you need to make arrangements for getting oil out, a standpipe one
> the side of the sump out of which you can suck the engine oil will
> suffice, otherwise you get to let it all go into the bilge.
Something I hadn't considered.....
>
> Water cooled exhaust manifold, these keep your exhaust temps down, and
> also provide a ready source of hot water for distribution to internal
> services like galleys and heads.
Another aspect I haven't even considered! Are the manifolds cooled in
their car applications?
D Walford
Hi tech isn't always better and I wonder how well they will do in a
harsh marine environment, there is probably good reason soem of the
newer technology hasn't been used.
An engine in a car or a truck is subjected to constantly changing loads
and rpm whereas a boat engine is mostly under constant load at constant
rpm so most likely all the hi tech is wasted.
Daryl
James
"Noddy" <dg4163@(nospam)dodo.com.au> wrote in message
news:45df645d$0$22078$c30e...@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...
Yes I have seen many too, as you say usually powerglides, jammed between a
blown big-block and a sterndrive, big massive pitch semisurfacing propellors
are hard to turn when the boat is stationary with the ass end almost
underwater and trying to pull up two skiiers :)
> --
> Regards,
> Noddy.
>
>
>
Noddy
"jackbadger56" <cast...@gmail.com> wrote in message
> Another aspect I haven't even considered! Are the manifolds cooled in
> their car applications?
Only by airflow.
Boat applications tend to be a bit more difficult in that regard, as no air
comes upward from the "road" to flow over the engine and cool the exhaust
manifold. You don't have to run water cooled manifolds if you don't want to,
as tubular steel "extractor" types will work just fine (apart from being
very noisy), and standard iron manifolds will survive (although they'll get
a lot hotter than they normally would in a car).
The best solution would depend largely on what you wanted to use the boat
for I expect. If it's to be run in fresh water, then marinised exhaust
manifolds will work well, and give to a supply of heated water to run
through the engine block. If it's going to be for salt water use, then I'd
personally not want to run that through an engine (it's quite corrosive),
and would use a dedicated cooling system which could be fabricated to take
up a minimal amount of space.
look at Forklifts. They rev their tits off all day long while getting no
airflow over the engine or through the radiator core. They survive by
running a physically small (but large capacity) radiator with a very good
fan, and that's all they need.
--
Regards,
Noddy.
John McKenzie
> The current engines run happiest at about 1800rpm (7 knots), but I
> suspect it's still fitted with propellers more suited to a 2500-3000
> rpm cruise (again, an assumption that this is where Holden sixes would
> be happy).
IS 7knots sufficient for your needs or would you have been running the
current motors higher (not knowing what gearing there is between crank
and prop, I guess I'm speculating a little here) to get to a reasonable
enough pace?
If it is the case that it's fine like that for 90% of duties, then it's
not a huge concern I suppose.
But if not, then perhaps another set of holdens (you'd get em for free!)
The reason I mentioned lpg is (aside from any buildup concerns which
shouldn't happen in an even remotely adequately vented engine space) is
that engine wear on lpg (with the exception of exhaust valve recession,
which is easily addressed with the use of hardened seats, which would
have been done as a matter of course for practically so long now with
engine reconditioners that you'd have to look reasonable hard to find a
head that doesn't feature them) so drastically low compared to petrol,
especially in marine apps, that it extends the life probably to double
or triple. Not sure how the average turbo diesel would last - as they
tend to be built for longer lifespans too, but it's worth a thought.
The reason is fairly simple. Gas is introduced (duh) as a gas, never as
a liquid fuel like petrol. this liquid fuel can, especially when the
engine is cold (as in startup, or particularly if cold seawater is used
as the coolant instead of a self contained setup) condense and it
dilutes the oil film protecting the bore walls/rings/pistons from wear.
Aside from it being immediately washed away and thereby setting it up
for accelerated wear, the petrol and the debris then end up in the oil,
and this causes the oil to deteriorate below whatever levels it needs to
be to do it's job far more quickly.).
on a motor that likely does most of it's starts after some time of
disuse, and sees low temperatures *(relatively, any morning on or near
water can be) has some real potential to exploit or improve with the
option of lpg. About the only thing you might consider is still running
a carb of some sort, and a reserve fuel tank for any situations, as
it'll generally be easier to do a makeshift at sea refuel or recovery
with liquid fuel.
I haven't really put much thought into gearbox's and would
> like, if practical, to keep the current ones and change the propellers
> so the new engines would also be able to cruise at <2000rpm.
I haven't had a hell of a lot to do with boats since my old man was
around, to be honest, but there was a fair few options back then that
weren't all that mega expensive (including some that would be considered
almost total diy, with components bought for cheap, vs paying a shitload
for someone else to put the same general setup together for you, so
definitely check around, perhaps even at the marina, look for some old
bloke that mutters a lot, and always has grease or grime on his hands :)
--
John McKenzie
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Kev
Not quite
to get the boat out of the hole and up on the plane takes quite a bit of
power
so using a larger pitch prop to get the speed you may find the engine
doesn't have enough power to get it up on the plane(mate's old steel
boat was one instance, with 4 of us on board and enough fuel and food
for an overnight run it would not get up there(150hp merc)
he ended up changing the prop which helped a lot but made the dismal
fuel economy even worse
a simple 2 speed box would be very useful, especially with diesel engines
Kev
eeviil inc.
I remember this box was pretty knackered, but he fixed it, or got it
fixed. It seemed to be slipping badly, to the point that if you grabbed
the uni joint it would stop spinning while in either gear. Mind you when
he bought the yacht it was sitting on the bottom of Rose Bay (in
Sydney), yes, on the bottom. So water would have well and truly
impregnated everything. I can't remember why he had bolted it to a
Holden 6, but the Perking copped a complete rebuild and went back in the
yacht along with the fixed box.
Adam
the_dawggie
> At some stage in the next few years we're going to have to re-power
> our boat as the twin SD33's are pretty tired. I was thinking (just
> thinking!) that fitting modern twin 4cyl turbo-diesels would be worth
> exploring. We've yet to get quotes on the Nissans but I'm sure it will
> cost a fortune simply because it's for a marine application (diesel
> fuel at all the marinas in Pittwater charge about $1.70 per litre, to
> give you an idea of what they can get away with). If we were to use a
> heat-exchanger set-up rather than pumping seawater through them, would
> you really need to do a great deal of modification for marine use? The
> 'engine room' (wow, that sounds grand!) is pretty well sealed and
> there is heaps of room, so maybe any computers etc can be located well
> out of harms way. Two of the marine mechanics I've put this to seem to
> think it should be OK in theory, but had never put any thought into
> it, as they had never been asked. They weren't keen on the idea
> basically, but couldn't really give me a reason why. Has anyone here
> had experience in fitting stock car engines into boats? If so, do you
> think this is feasible?
>
> BTW I've looked for an 'Aus.Boats' to ask this, but am also interested
> in what 'car-heads' think of this idea. Traditional boaties are just
> too blinded by......well........tradition, and would be horrified at the
> thought of doing this to a 60yo Halvorsen (despite the fact that it
> currently has Nissan truck motors, which in turn replaced a pair of
> Holden sixes!)
Ok, I've lived by the sea for all my life, and had a number
of boats.
That would range from outboards, to a yacht, to ...
nothing ATM (got shites with).
A friend had a largish boat at Pittwater IIRC with a
petrol engine in early 1990s. Don't even want to
go near how much petrol the thing needed - not
feasible these days. I had a Chrysler 130 HP outboard
I rebuilt for the boat I had too around then. It chewed
fuel like I don't now what. Fairly powerfull at the
times it actually worked though.
Diesel engine idea is good. Depending on what
you use, they are heavy engines.
What you have to figure on is getting the boat up
to speed on a plane, I think a diesel would be good
at it. A turbo diesel certainly would be.
Plough along with much water resistance, with
a petrol engine and yeah, you gunna use fuel.
In a diesel, I'm suspecting you are going to use
less fuel than a petrol guzzler.
... and there is the biodiesel option
Heck, ships use the biggest diesel engines (and
most powerfull) engines ever built in the world .. it's
gotta be all good.
I'd be wanting to consider salt conditions.
Car diesel engines should be generally good with it,
however some components might not like being in a
marine environment all the time, and *certainly* might
not like sea water as a coolant. Set up a radiator with
proper coolant arrangement would be better.
Unless a proper off the shelf kit of engine and parts
in mind for a boat, it would be a lot of work, and a
few oooops, "tweak that and this a bit" moments I
would think.
D Walford
"Twin Disc" is a common brand of boat transmission, they have been
around for a long time and I think that was the brand most commonly
fitted behind most Perkins marine engines.
I've overhauled quite a few Twin Disc torque converters that were fitted
to road graders but no boat stuff.
Being full of salt water doesn't usually do them a lot of good but if it
hadn't been under too long it would have been ok after a strip and rebuild.
Daryl
jackbadger56
True, it's a bit more complicated than first appears (e.g. the need
for manifold cooling). We've got some time up our sleeves so plenty of
time to consider options. I'm the only one of the 6 owners who seems
to want to consider doing anything other than showing up at a "boat
place" and and saying '2 new engines please; need it for the
weekend'!!
BTW I'd like to see a 60 year old, 40 foot Halvorsen on a plane.......