More dubious Toyota quality

[Noddy]

Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
here like to get their knickers in, just thought I'd share another
little "Toyota Tidbit" I discovered yesterday.

I was doing a small love job on a 2011 Corolla that belongs to the
mother of the lady who washes my dog. It had a problem with the starter
that made a horrible noise when you cranked the engine and she'd been
quoted some stupid amount of money to have it replaced which she wasn't
keep on paying as she was selling the car soon and didn't want to fork
out on it unless she had to.

So I told her to bring it over and I'll take a peek. Long story short
when you cranked the engine it sounded like the starter pinion wasn't
retracting quick enough causing either a mesh or overspeed issue, and as
the starter on this particular model takes all of 10 minutes to get out
I thought I would take it out and have a look.

Turns out the starter was full of clutch dust and dry, hardened grease,
and after a quick dismantle and clean and some new grease it was put
back together and back in the car and it's all working as it should.

Anyway, onto the interesting bit.

This is the starter here. Nothing special:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MK7

This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG

The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of it
like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud and
jammed in place with the nut.

Not even with a washer :)

Pretty fucking pisseak I thought, so I wondered how many other starters
are like that? I have a few laying around here so I had a look.

Couple of Mazda ones here:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP

Nope, They both have soldered eyelets.

A Mitsubishi one:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKU

Nope. Crimped eyelet as well.

Even a dirty old Ford V8 starter:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKW

Yep. Crimped terminal there too.

Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making their
cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each Corolla by
not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.

Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
Oh, what a feeling :)





--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Clocky]

On 1/06/2022 9:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around

<snip irrelevant>

LOL, so you're making a big deal about something that neither affects
performance or longevity but failing timing chains and transmissions on
Nissans (and Ranger) get a free pass?

Your agenda is showing, dickhead.
--
keith on the 7 Oct 2021 wrote;
"He asserts that the claim is true, so, if
it is unproven, he is lying."

[alvey]

On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:02:11 +0800, Clocky wrote:

> On 1/06/2022 9:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>
>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
>
> <snip irrelevant>
>
> LOL, so you're making a big deal about something that neither affects
> performance or longevity but failing timing chains and transmissions on
> Nissans (and Ranger) get a free pass?
>
> Your agenda is showing, dickhead.

Showing that it's arse about. He's gone to this effort to try and score a
trivial point, but proving his Big Claims is below it?

And on this trivial point... How do you tell if the dodgy starter is Toyota
kit?



alvey

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Peter Jason]

>
>Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
>Oh, what a feeling :)

Perhaps, like batteries, they're meant to be consumables.

The RACV (Victoria) have specialist vans for starter motor
replacements and for batteries. I have used both.
The Man in the Van whizzes out and changes over the part in 15min and
invites a choice between Chinese & Toyota parts. There's a credit
for exchanging a genuine Toyota starter for a Chinese one.
For batteries there's a charger checkup too.

About $400 for the c. motor & service call.

I carry a length of water pipe behind the back seat to give the C
motor a good whack if necessary. So far good luck.

[Trevor Wilson]

**Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car has
never been worked on previously on that component?

[alvey]

Does this help?

https://parts.toyota.com/a/Toyota_2011_Corolla/69294639__6730963/STARTER/155460-1904.html

[Trevor Wilson]

**A little. Obviously, it is difficult to see any detail, but it appears
Toyota dropped the ball on this issue.

[Noddy]

Well, given that the owner has owned the car since it was new and this
is the first time a problem with the starter has developed, combined
with the fact that the starter itself has a nice shiny green "Toyota"
sticker on the side of it with the part number I would think it was a
fairly safe bet to suggest that this was how it left the factory.

I can't be 100% certain of course, but it's highly unlikely that it has
been modified before.

[Noddy]

On 2/06/2022 9:13 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 7:34 am, Trevor Wilson wrote:
>> On 1/06/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making
>>> their cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each
>>> Corolla by not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.
>>>
>>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is
>>> fantastic? Oh, what a feeling :)
>>>
>>
>> **Are you suggesting that you know, without any doubt, that the car
>> has never been worked on previously on that component?
>
> Well, given that the owner has owned the car since it was new and this
> is the first time a problem with the starter has developed, combined
> with the fact that the starter itself has a nice shiny green "Toyota"
> sticker on the side of it with the part number I would think it was a
> fairly safe bet to suggest that this was how it left the factory.

Correction: The Toyota starter has a *pink* label. One of the other
starters I picked up yesterday for comparison had a green label.

[Noddy]

It doesn't really. It's just a generic exploded drawing, and while it
identifies the key components of your average starter motor it doesn't
relate to this particular one specifically.

> Obviously, it is difficult to see any detail, but it appears
> Toyota dropped the ball on this issue.

Only if you consider deliberate cost cutting to be "ball dropping".

Toyota, like many other manufacturers, make very few of their own
electrical components and instead rely on 3rd party suppliers. In this
case the starter was made by Denso, who have a long history and
connection with Toyota. Toyota would be dictating terms to Denso as to
exactly what they wanted, including the price point they were prepared
to pay per unit. Denso, in response, would be cutting as many corners as
they could to meet that criteria. The result is what was seen in the
pictures.

As to whether Toyota specifically demanded that the starter be supplied
without a terminal attached to the field coil lead I can't say one way
or the other, but *someone* clearly decided that doing so was necessary
to meet the requirements and Toyota certainly approved it for use.

This is the actual starter in position with the original "factory" label
clearly visible:

> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3TI8

As can be seen it is the factory original starter, and it is highly
unlikely that it has ever been modified.

Hey Kryppy. You have a Corolla, right? Take a photo of yours and post it
here so we can see if this is a "one off" or whether Toyota really is
that much of a pack of penny pinching pricks that they have to resort to
bullshit practices like this in order to make their billions.

[Daryl]

Rough and cheap as that looks was it actually causing a problem?
Only starter that I have here not attached to a car is from a 2005
Diahatsu Charade, it has the same "twisted wire" as the Corolla starter.
I know it works because I started the engine to test it before removing
the engine, couldn't use it because it fits an auto and son's Mira is
manual.
I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into the
right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a terminal
so maybe there is another reason?




--
Daryl

[Yosemite Sam]

On 2/06/2022 6:16 am, alvey wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:02:11 +0800, Clocky wrote:
>
>> On 1/06/2022 9:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
>> <snip irrelevant>
>>
>> LOL, so you're making a big deal about something that neither affects
>> performance or longevity but failing timing chains and transmissions on
>> Nissans (and Ranger) get a free pass?
>>
>> Your agenda is showing, dickhead.
> Showing that it's arse about. He's gone to this effort to try and score a
> trivial point, but proving his Big Claims is below it?
>
> And on this trivial point... How do you tell if the dodgy starter is Toyota
> kit?
>

yes the default position for anything noddy says is that it's probably a lie


>
> alvey
>

--
https://tinyurl.com/Yosemite-Sam

"So some infantile nonsense and running away
again I see. Your standard MO."-Clocky on Keefy

FUCK PUTIN!!

[Yosemite Sam]

by twisting the cable the entire cable is in contact with the bolt and
nut so a greater capacity to pass more current than if a crimped on
connector were used

https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG  vs
https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP

[Yosemite Sam]

you have him blocked so you won't see it dumbass. unless one of your
minons 'echos' it for you of course.

[Noddy]

On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:

> On 1/6/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:

>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>
>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
>> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of
>> it like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud
>> and jammed in place with the nut.
>>
>> Not even with a washer :)
>
> Rough and cheap as that looks was it actually causing a problem?

Not that I'm aware of. According to the owner this is the first time the
car's had a starter problem since she bought it new 11 years ago, and
from what I can tell the problem that developed isn't related to the
lead connection.

However that doesn't remove the fact that the connection method itself
is pretty pissweak for a high current application. Most people would be
reluctant to have their battery leads secured in such a way....

> Only starter that I have here not attached to a car is from a 2005
> Diahatsu Charade, it has the same "twisted wire" as the Corolla starter.
> I know it works because I started the engine to test it before removing
> the engine, couldn't use it because it fits an auto and son's Mira is
> manual.

Is it a Denso starter by any chance? I wonder if that's their policy.

> I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into the
> right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a terminal
> so maybe there is another reason?

I can't imagine it would be any more difficult or time consuming to form
the bare wire into the required shape than it would be to crimp on a
terminal during the manufacturing process, so the differences in costs
relating to manufacturing processes would be negligible. However in
using the bare wire on it's own they are removing the terminal from the
picture altogether, and the only logical reason I can see why they would
possibly want to do that would be to reduce the manufacturing costs.

As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in any
way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to Toyota's
bank balance.

[alvey]

Hang on.
Who is "DENSO"? The 428000 is a DENSO part prefix for a starter.
https://www.denso.com.au/part-search

[jonz@ nothere.com]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Well, *that* got the chooks a'cluckin', and the wankers wankin'.....A little light entertainment never goes astray. :)))
I think *all* of the usual suspects participated as well. well done!!!!

[Noddy]

As expected.

There are one or two Dunning-Kruger poster childs here who insist that
Toyota make high end products which is nothing other than swallowing the
"unbreakable" bullshit of their marketing department.

The reality is that their stuff is no better than that of anyone else,
in in some cases it's quite inferior.

As in this example.

[Clocky]

On 2/06/2022 4:16 am, alvey wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:02:11 +0800, Clocky wrote:
>
>> On 1/06/2022 9:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
>>
>> <snip irrelevant>
>>
>> LOL, so you're making a big deal about something that neither affects
>> performance or longevity but failing timing chains and transmissions on
>> Nissans (and Ranger) get a free pass?
>>
>> Your agenda is showing, dickhead.
>
> Showing that it's arse about. He's gone to this effort to try and score a
> trivial point, but proving his Big Claims is below it?
>

Well it's easier to score trivial and meaningless points compared to
proving something you don't possess and haven't done as previously
claimed you had. It's a distraction but nothing more - just like his
'nah not proving I'm qualified but look I have cable ties, even if none
were multi-coloured in support of my claim' nonsense.

> And on this trivial point... How do you tell if the dodgy starter is Toyota
> kit?
>
>

The brand/model and other identifiers are usually a giveaway and these
are on a label on the starter motor. Neither are visible in the photo so
it's not a given that it's a Toyota starter. (that had crossed my mind)



>
> alvey

[Clocky]

What "issue"?

[Clocky]

Denso make starter motors for lots of manufacturers, Toyota included.
You can bet that any given manufacturer will have the same design on one
of their vehicles. Despite the frauds ridiculous nonsense, it's not even
a "Toyota" specific thing.

[Clocky]

Toyota don't make that starter and it's a non-issue.

The relevance deprived fraud just wants to show off that he's pretending
to be a mechanic whilst having a crack at Toyota over a non-issue for a
non-manufacturer specific design.

[Yosemite Sam]

On 2/06/2022 12:16 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:

except I provided a possible explanation of why it was done that way,
wheres you've 'contributed' nothing except your usual noddy butt kissing

[Yosemite Sam]

exactly. why assume it's an inferior way of doing it?

[Yosemite Sam]

On 2/06/2022 12:42 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 12:16 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 11:47:37 UTC+10, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:
>

<snip drivel>

> There are one or two Dunning-Kruger poster childs here who insist that
> Toyota make high end products which is nothing other than swallowing
> the "unbreakable" bullshit of their marketing department.
>
> The reality is that their stuff is no better than that of anyone else,
> in in some cases it's quite inferior.

have fun explaining why Toyota has a reputation for reliability and
longevity then

[Yosemite Sam]

yep

[Xeno]

Um, no it isn't. It seems quite clear that what you are looking at, and
failing to recognise, is a *Flemish eye splice*. That process makes the
wire into a *perfect eyelet*.

>
> Not even with a washer :)

How odd. I can clearly see a washer *on the stud*. As for a washer under
the nut, it will most likely have that *built into the nut* as is the
case with the nut immediately behind the splice.

>
> Pretty fucking pisseak I thought, so I wondered how many other starters
> are like that? I have a few laying around here so I had a look.
>
> Couple of Mazda ones here:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP
>
> Nope, They both have soldered eyelets.
>
> A Mitsubishi one:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKU
>
> Nope. Crimped eyelet as well.
>
> Even a dirty old Ford V8 starter:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKW
>
> Yep. Crimped terminal there too.

Crimped terminals are the cheap ones. And the ones more likely to cause
issues long term!

>
> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making their
> cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each Corolla by
> not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.

Well, let's analyse that, shall we. The Flemish eye splice is far from
being a cheap and nasty solution. In fact, it is more involved than
making the same thing with a *crimp connector*. It would involve
significantly more labour cost than a crimped eyelet, that much is
certain. What's more, it is a far more efficacious solution than a
crimped eyelet. Why? Because you are far more likely to get corrosion
build up in the crimp over time.

Now, take a look at that Flemish eyelet splice, see any galvanic
corrosion? See any signs of a poor connection? See any signs of
overheating as a result of a *high resistance* connection? As far as I
can see, the answer would be an emphatic *no* to all the above. In fact,
the connection looks to be as clean and solid as the day it was
installed at the factory. Kudos to Toyota for creating decent design
specifications for the OEM supplier, in this case *Denso*.

>
> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?

The Flemish eye splice is a perfect example of Toyota striving for
*reliability*.

> Oh, what a feeling :)

Did that splice cause an issue? No! Does it look likely to cause an
issue in the *next eleven years*? No! So Toyota gets a tick for
*enhanced reliability*.

*Reliability* is what Toyota are noted for Darren.

And *again* Darren shoots himself in the foot!

You're really making a habit of that Darren!

--
Xeno


Nothing astonishes Noddy so much as common sense and plain dealing.
(with apologies to Ralph Waldo Emerson)

[Xeno]

It isn't an inferior way of doing it and Darren's pics *prove it*.

[Yosemite Sam]

yes it's quite obvious that the cable has been formed into an eyelet. I
thought that was obvious to all.

yep. I already made the point that there's less resistance with this
method. and corrosion is avoided as you say.

>>
>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
>
> The Flemish eye splice is a perfect example of Toyota striving for
> *reliability*.
>
>> Oh, what a feeling :)
>
> Did that splice cause an issue? No! Does it look likely to cause an
> issue in the *next eleven years*? No! So Toyota gets a tick for
> *enhanced reliability*.
>
> *Reliability* is what Toyota are noted for Darren.
>
> And *again* Darren shoots himself in the foot!
>
> You're really making a habit of that Darren!
>

LOL

[Yosemite Sam]

I wasn't suggesting it was

[Yosemite Sam]

On 2/06/2022 4:34 pm, Xeno wrote:

hey jonzie echo this for your mentor please..

[Yosemite Sam]

On 2/06/2022 4:34 pm, Xeno wrote:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PMIDXWI_2g

[Xeno]

Darren was suggesting it was an inferior way of doing it, even in the
header. He was so so wrong! You might have noticed, he’s wrong a lot and
there’s good reason for that - he’s an idiot!

--
Xeno

[Clocky]

I should correct myself. Denso, if the manufacturer is owned by the
Toyota group, but Denso are the OEM for other manufacturers. There are
no problems with that design and I'm positive that it is used elsewhere
on other starter motors fitted to other makes.

Just to clarify.

[Clocky]

It's only an inferior way if he can show that it causes problems and he
can't.

Broken Navara and Pathfinder timing chains were a worldwide quality
issue that severely damaged the brand, as were Ford Powershit
transmissions and worse the way they tried to shaft customers by putting
the blame on them.

But here he is pointing at something that has never caused anyone ever a
problem as "dubious Toyota Quality".

Meanwhile, the cloth seats in my poverty pack Hilux with 345,000 km on
the clock have no tears :-)

[Clocky]

Indeed, and the crimp on a crimped terminal is another potential cause
of high resistance, corrosion and therefore failure. The Flemish eye
splice removes a potential point of failure out of the equation.

> Now, take a look at that Flemish eyelet splice, see any galvanic
> corrosion? See any signs of a poor connection? See any signs of
> overheating as a result of a *high resistance* connection? As far as I
> can see, the answer would be an emphatic *no* to all the above. In fact,
> the connection looks to be as clean and solid as the day it was
> installed at the factory. Kudos to Toyota for creating decent design
> specifications for the OEM supplier, in this case *Denso*.
>>

Heh, pretty much what I just said.

>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
>
> The Flemish eye splice is a perfect example of Toyota striving for
> *reliability*.
>
>> Oh, what a feeling :)
>
> Did that splice cause an issue? No! Does it look likely to cause an
> issue in the *next eleven years*? No! So Toyota gets a tick for
> *enhanced reliability*.
>
> *Reliability* is what Toyota are noted for Darren.
>
> And *again* Darren shoots himself in the foot!
>
> You're really making a habit of that Darren!
>

He's an incompetent clueless fucking idiot.

[Xeno]

Instead, he has pointed out, with his photo, why it is *superior quality*.

>
> Broken Navara and Pathfinder timing chains were a worldwide quality
> issue that severely damaged the brand, as were Ford Powershit
> transmissions and worse the way they tried to shaft customers by putting
> the blame on them.
>
> But here he is pointing at something that has never caused anyone ever a
> problem as "dubious Toyota Quality".

Well, his work on engines definitely ranks as *dubious quality*. On
second thought, and with Les' engine in mind, make that *shit quality*.

>
> Meanwhile, the cloth seats in my poverty pack Hilux with 345,000 km on
> the clock have no tears :-)
>

Jeez, Darren's Navara couldn't manage that, its seats were on the way
out at *70k klm*.

[Daryl]

On 2/6/2022 11:47 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:
>> On 1/6/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>>
>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>>
>>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
>>> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of
>>> it like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud
>>> and jammed in place with the nut.
>>>
>>> Not even with a washer :)
>>
>> Rough and cheap as that looks was it actually causing a problem?
>
> Not that I'm aware of. According to the owner this is the first time the
> car's had a starter problem since she bought it new 11 years ago, and
> from what I can tell the problem that developed isn't related to the
> lead connection.
>
> However that doesn't remove the fact that the connection method itself
> is pretty pissweak for a high current application. Most people would be
> reluctant to have their battery leads secured in such a way....
>
>> Only starter that I have here not attached to a car is from a 2005
>> Diahatsu Charade, it has the same "twisted wire" as the Corolla starter.
>> I know it works because I started the engine to test it before
>> removing the engine, couldn't use it because it fits an auto and son's
>> Mira is manual.
>
> Is it a Denso starter by any chance? I wonder if that's their policy.

Yes Denso made in Japan.

>
>> I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into
>> the right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a
>> terminal so maybe there is another reason?
>
> I can't imagine it would be any more difficult or time consuming to form
> the bare wire into the required shape than it would be to crimp on a
> terminal during the manufacturing process, so the differences in costs
> relating to manufacturing processes would be negligible. However in
> using the bare wire on it's own they are removing the terminal from the
> picture altogether, and the only logical reason I can see why they would
> possibly want to do that would be to reduce the manufacturing costs.
>
> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in any
> way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
> manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to Toyota's
> bank balance.
>
>

As well as saving the price of the terminal the wire that comes out of
the starter is also short so maybe by doing it that way they save on
terminals and wire, doesn't make much sense to people like us but maybe
it makes sense to Denso who make millions of the things.



--
Daryl

[Yosemite Sam]

which just shows how clueless you two are then because we've been
discussing why it does make sense. if you weren't so stupid and blocked
ppl you would know what was said and could learn something. even I knew
why it made sense to do it that way!

> but maybe it makes sense to Denso who make millions of the things.
>

--

[Xeno]

No, Denso will make a starter according to the *manufacturer's*
specification. Note, Daihatsu falls under the *Toyota family* umbrella!

>
> Yes Denso made in Japan.
>>
>>> I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into
>>> the right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a
>>> terminal so maybe there is another reason?

Yes, creating a Flemish eyelet splice takes longer and requires much
more effort than crimping a terminal but it creates a perfect strong
eyelet and a perfect *high current* electrical connection. Note, the
splice in the pic looks like an 8 strand eye splice in rope. As such, it
is not an easy thing to do, especially on a very tight splice on the
starter with *copper wire*.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOuYIZVExSQ

Just imagine doing that with *copper strands* and getting a real tight
splice as you see on the starter!

>>
>> I can't imagine it would be any more difficult or time consuming to
>> form the bare wire into the required shape than it would be to crimp
>> on a terminal during the manufacturing process, so the differences in
>> costs relating to manufacturing processes would be negligible. However
>> in using the bare wire on it's own they are removing the terminal from
>> the picture altogether, and the only logical reason I can see why they
>> would possibly want to do that would be to reduce the manufacturing
>> costs.
>>
>> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in
>> any way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
>> manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to
>> Toyota's bank balance.
>>
>>
>
> As well as saving the price of the terminal the wire that comes out of
> the starter is also short so maybe by doing it that way they save on
> terminals and wire, doesn't make much sense to people like us but maybe
> it makes sense to Denso who make millions of the things.
>

FFS, are you a clown or what? By getting rid of the *crimp terminal*,
they are *eliminating* a weak point. Have you ever seen wire eyelet
splicing done? It ain't simple! Ditto with rope splicing. What it does
do is make an extremely strong eyelet. What you have here is an eyelet
that isn't going to come off *ever* as long as the nut is on and tight.

[Xeno]

I don't think the word *clueless* cuts it when describing these two
clowns. It's assuming they could get a clue. The reality, they could be
in a field chock full of clues whilst liberally daubed with clue musk
and doing the clue mating dance, and still not get a clue!

[Noddy]

On 2/06/2022 6:57 pm, Daryl wrote:

They do. A few cents on one starter is nothing, but on a few million
it's a big deal.

It's *still* a dodgy way of wiring up a high current connection :)

[Xeno]

On 2/6/2022 9:33 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 6:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 2/6/2022 11:47 am, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in
>>> any way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
>>> manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to
>>> Toyota's bank balance.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> As well as saving the price of the terminal the wire that comes out of
>> the starter is also short so maybe by doing it that way they save on
>> terminals and wire, doesn't make much sense to people like us but
>> maybe it makes sense to Denso who make millions of the things.

FFS, the wire is *looped*. Can you not see that? It extends back from
the actual loop area and its ends are interspersed with the wire section
it is looped back on to. It does not save on wire length. In fact, it
uses *more wire*. You can see that from the pic you posted! You would
cut *more* of the wire off if you intended to put a crimp connector on it.

>
> They do. A few cents on one starter is nothing, but on a few million
> it's a big deal.

The Flemish eye splice is harder to do, uses more wire, takes more
effort by *people* and will cost a whole lot more than a crimp
connector. But if the company, in this case Toyota, put it in the *build
specs*, then they will be given an all inclusive price by the OEM and it
will be *more expensive* by a decent margin, not cheaper as you intimate
it will be. It will however be way more effective long term and
contribute to Toyota's reputation for *reliability*.

>
> It's *still* a dodgy way of wiring up a high current connection :)
>

It is the *best* way to create a perfect eyelet for a high current
connection. It is not in the least dodgy. Get your head out of your arse!

The only thing dodgy here is *you* and that's because you're a liar and
a fraud and this entire thread serves only to confirm that.

[Yosemite Sam]

he has a history of proving himself wrong when trying to prove himself
right, lol

[Yosemite Sam]

no

[Yosemite Sam]

On 2/06/2022 10:00 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 2/6/2022 9:33 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 2/06/2022 6:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 2/6/2022 11:47 am, Noddy wrote:
>>
>>>> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in
>>>> any way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
>>>> manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to
>>>> Toyota's bank balance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> As well as saving the price of the terminal the wire that comes out
>>> of the starter is also short so maybe by doing it that way they save
>>> on terminals and wire, doesn't make much sense to people like us but
>>> maybe it makes sense to Denso who make millions of the things.
>
> FFS, the wire is *looped*. Can you not see that? It extends back from
> the actual loop area and its ends are interspersed with the wire
> section it is looped back on to. It does not save on wire length. In
> fact, it uses *more wire*. You can see that from the pic you posted!
> You would cut *more* of the wire off if you intended to put a crimp
> connector on it.

of course.

>>
>> They do. A few cents on one starter is nothing, but on a few million
>> it's a big deal.
>
> The Flemish eye splice is harder to do, uses more wire, takes more
> effort by *people* and will cost a whole lot more than a crimp
> connector. But if the company, in this case Toyota, put it in the
> *build specs*, then they will be given an all inclusive price by the
> OEM and it will be *more expensive* by a decent margin, not cheaper as
> you intimate it will be. It will however be way more effective long
> term and contribute to Toyota's reputation for *reliability*.
>>
>> It's *still* a dodgy way of wiring up a high current connection :)
>>
> It is the *best* way to create a perfect eyelet for a high current
> connection.

exactly

> It is not in the least dodgy. Get your head out of your arse!
>
> The only thing dodgy here is *you* and that's because you're a liar
> and a fraud and this entire thread serves only to confirm that.
>
>

yep!

[Clocky]

Imagine the noise he would have created about "Toyota quality" had it
been the other way around.

He would have burst a vein.

[Xeno]

The seats in my Toy show no signs of wear or damage at 120k so I expect
they will be the same at double that. Toyota obviously use a much better
material quality than Nissan.

[jonz@ nothere.com]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`

Faaaark!, hold the front page....HAHAHA
You do realise the only reason the seat is not ripped, is coz a real lightweight (in all its forms) has been drivin' it.... <FBG>

[Noddy]

This is yet *another* perfect example of these fucking retards inventing
a bullshit argument to have something completely ridiculous to scream about.

I never once said that the seats in my Navara were ripped, and I
challenge any one of these ridiculous fuckwits to cite any post where I
ever said that they were. The seats in my Navara are not ripped and they
never have been. They're lovely heated leather seats in excellent
condition.

What I *did* say was that when I went to auctions looking for a ute
before I bought this one I found many ex tradie utes that had ripped
driver's seats, and it wasn't just Navaras. It was utes from all makes
and particularly those that had cloth seats.

What these fucking simpletons have done here is taken something I've
said and turned it into something it isn't, and they do this *all* the
time. They exist in this group for no reason other than to perpetuate
bullshit that never existed in the first place, all while trying to
portray themselves as pillars of honesty and integrity who0 do no wrong.

I was going to say that it's laughable, but it's way deeper than that.
it's genuine mental illness, and personally have to genuinely laugh out
loud at the fucking *imbecile* who once made a huge song and dance about
his ability to wire up a set of spotlights as if he was the only one who
could ever do so thinking that the cheap and nasty method of wrapping a
wire around a stud and jamming it in place with a nut is a perfectly
acceptable means of making a reliable connection.

All I get from that is that he would be the shonkiest cunt you could
ever let loose near a car, and it's no wonder the idiot is confined to
fitting mudflaps and side steps for a living.

"Shooting at pigeons over my back fence into neighbouring properties",
wasn't it Jerky? Something you completely invented and have been on the
bullshit crusade ever since.

You're a fucking idiot. Pure and simple.

[Xeno]

On 3/6/2022 12:23 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 3/06/2022 11:46 am, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 18:21:04 UTC+10, Clocky wrote:
>
>>> Broken Navara and Pathfinder timing chains were a worldwide quality
>>> issue that severely damaged the brand, as were Ford Powershit
>>> transmissions and worse the way they tried to shaft customers by putting
>>> the blame on them.
>>>
>>> But here he is pointing at something that has never caused anyone ever a
>>> problem as "dubious Toyota Quality".
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, the cloth seats in my poverty pack Hilux with 345,000 km on
>>> the clock have no tears :-)
>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
>>
>> Faaaark!, hold the front page....HAHAHA
>> You do realise the only reason the seat is not ripped, is coz a real
>> lightweight (in all its forms) has been drivin' it.... <FBG>
>
> This is yet *another* perfect example of these fucking retards inventing
> a bullshit argument to have something completely ridiculous to scream
> about.
>
> I never once said that the seats in my Navara were ripped, and I

You said your seat was *frayed*, or words to that effect, where you slid
into it. Frayed, ripped, it matters not, it's still poor quality
material if it is doing that at *70 k klm*.

<further Darren bullshit snipped>

[alvey]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:23:07 +1000, Noddy wrote:


"And in today's Bumhole news... Miraculously, no-one was injured in a major
toy-throwing incident on Liars Flat. A neighbor, Ms Effie McToothless,
witnessed the event. "Kerrist! It was fuckin' deafening! So much squealin',
gruntin' 'n snufflin'! I thought old Berts' pigs had gotten into the ice
lab at number 15 again. But fuck me! It was only that little twerp at
number 17. Turns out he was havin' a huge tanty cos his KFC wasn't served
the way he likes it. Fuck he's a dickhead".



alvey

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[alvey]

On Fri, 3 Jun 2022 12:23:07 +1000, Noddy wrote:

snip

One other thing Fraudster... You've gone straight to boil here because you
allege that someone claimed you said 'ripped' instead of 'worn'. Pause and
reflect for a moment on the abuse and lies you've heaped on many and how
some might react. I'd opine that you playing the victim is as sympathetic a
role as Anton Chigurh in 'No Country For Old Men'.

[Clocky]

On 3/06/2022 10:23 am, Noddy wrote:
> On 3/06/2022 11:46 am, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>> On Thursday, 2 June 2022 at 18:21:04 UTC+10, Clocky wrote:
>
>>> Broken Navara and Pathfinder timing chains were a worldwide quality
>>> issue that severely damaged the brand, as were Ford Powershit
>>> transmissions and worse the way they tried to shaft customers by putting
>>> the blame on them.
>>>
>>> But here he is pointing at something that has never caused anyone ever a
>>> problem as "dubious Toyota Quality".
>>>
>>> Meanwhile, the cloth seats in my poverty pack Hilux with 345,000 km on
>>> the clock have no tears :-)
>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~`
>>
>> Faaaark!, hold the front page....HAHAHA
>> You do realise the only reason the seat is not ripped, is coz a real
>> lightweight (in all its forms) has been drivin' it.... <FBG>
>
> This is yet *another* perfect example of these fucking retards inventing
> a bullshit argument to have something completely ridiculous to scream
> about.
>

Naw. Pulling the victim card are you, fraud?

You're screaming.

[Clocky]

I have to apologise to Noddy.
The tears are not in his seats but in his eyes.

:-)

[Xeno]

Yeah, he's not a happy chappie when a focus over which he has no control
puts the spotlight squarely on him and highlights a narrative he cannot
direct.

[Clocky]

Yep he does his 'nana but it doesn't change the fact that he's a proven
liar, massive hypocrite and a fraud!

Those are facts, not opinion :-)

[jonz@ nothere.com]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fuckin' sad eh. :)))

> >>>>
> >>>> I never once said that the seats in my Navara were ripped, and I
> >>>
> >>> You said your seat was *frayed*, or words to that effect, where you
> >>> slid into it. Frayed, ripped, it matters not, it's still poor quality
> >>> material if it is doing that at *70 k klm*.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Run the front page, just more spam from the sheltered workshop. :)))

> >>>
> >>> <further Darren bullshit snipped>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >> I have to apologise to Noddy.
> >> The tears are not in his seats but in his eyes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Hahaha, FFS. :)))

> >>
> >> :-)
> >>
> > Yeah, he's not a happy chappie when a focus over which he has no control
> > puts the spotlight squarely on him and highlights a narrative he cannot
> > direct.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
And the *word soup* comp. winner is Krypsis!!.......Just *Another* FFS moment.

[Noddy]

On 4/06/2022 12:07 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
> On Saturday, 4 June 2022 at 11:28:17 UTC+10, Clocky wrote:

>>>>> You said your seat was *frayed*, or words to that effect, where you
>>>>> slid into it. Frayed, ripped, it matters not, it's still poor quality
>>>>> material if it is doing that at *70 k klm*.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>
> Run the front page, just more spam from the sheltered workshop. :)))

Maying a useless lying cunt of himself yet *again*. I never said it as
ripped, or frayed, or "words to that effect", and *again* I invite him
to give himself a bit of credibility to cite the post which he is
referring to.

Unless, of course, he's now going to claim that I deleted that too :)

>>>> I have to apologise to Noddy.
>>>> The tears are not in his seats but in his eyes.

> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> Hahaha, FFS. :)))

Ridiculous, isn't it? They've been bitch slapped with their *own*
bullshit, but apparently *I'm* the one who's supposed to be upset about it.

Just goes to show how unhinged these mental midgets really are.

>>> Yeah, he's not a happy chappie when a focus over which he has no control
>>> puts the spotlight squarely on him and highlights a narrative he cannot
>>> direct.
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> And the *word soup* comp. winner is Krypsis!!.......Just *Another* FFS moment.

Ever notice how often he resorts to mindless waffle like this whenever
he's had his arse handed to him?

[Yosemite Sam]

On 4/06/2022 1:13 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 4/06/2022 12:07 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>> On Saturday, 4 June 2022 at 11:28:17 UTC+10, Clocky wrote:
>
>>>>>> You said your seat was *frayed*, or words to that effect, where you
>>>>>> slid into it. Frayed, ripped, it matters not, it's still poor
>>>>>> quality
>>>>>> material if it is doing that at *70 k klm*.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>
>> Run the front page, just more  spam from the sheltered workshop. :)))
>
> Maying a useless lying cunt of himself yet *again*. I never said it as
> ripped, or frayed, or "words to that effect", and *again* I invite him
> to give himself a bit of credibility to cite the post which he is
> referring to.

Xeno has plenty of credibility, but you have none, since you've been
'invited' a thousand times to give yourself some by posting evidence of
your claimed trade qualifications and haven't done so, so don't expect
anyone else to bow to your 'invitations'

>
> Unless, of course, he's now going to claim that I deleted that too :)
>
>
>>>>> I have to apologise to Noddy.
>>>>> The tears are not in his seats but in his eyes.
>
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>   Hahaha, FFS. :)))
>
> Ridiculous, isn't it? They've been bitch slapped with their *own*
> bullshit, but apparently *I'm* the one who's supposed to be upset
> about it.
>
> Just goes to show how unhinged these mental midgets really are.
>
>>>> Yeah, he's not a happy chappie when a focus over which he has no
>>>> control
>>>> puts the spotlight squarely on him and highlights a narrative he
>>>> cannot
>>>> direct.
>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>   And the *word soup* comp. winner is Krypsis!!.......Just *Another*
>> FFS moment.
>
> Ever notice how often he resorts to mindless waffle like this whenever
> he's had his arse handed to him?
>
>

--

[Clocky]

On 4/06/2022 11:30 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 4/06/2022 1:13 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 4/06/2022 12:07 pm, jonz@ nothere.com wrote:
>>> On Saturday, 4 June 2022 at 11:28:17 UTC+10, Clocky wrote:
>>
>>>>>>> You said your seat was *frayed*, or words to that effect, where you
>>>>>>> slid into it. Frayed, ripped, it matters not, it's still poor
>>>>>>> quality
>>>>>>> material if it is doing that at *70 k klm*.
>>> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
>>>
>>> Run the front page, just more  spam from the sheltered workshop. :)))
>>
>> Maying a useless lying cunt of himself yet *again*. I never said it as
>> ripped, or frayed, or "words to that effect", and *again* I invite him
>> to give himself a bit of credibility to cite the post which he is
>> referring to.
>
>
> Xeno has plenty of credibility, but you have none, since you've been
> 'invited' a thousand times to give yourself some by posting evidence of
> your claimed trade qualifications and haven't done so, so don't expect
> anyone else to bow to your 'invitations'
>
>

Exactly.

NoddyLiar has no credibility at all - it's lower than dogshit stuck to a
shoe.

Given his countless lies and failure to prove his claims nobody owes him
anything.

[Xeno]

Indeed, Darren owes *every aus.cars poster*, past and present, an
explanation of the questions that have arisen re his myriad *false* and
*frauduent* claims.

[alvey]

Said Fraudster, bravely and mindlessly from behind his mighty killfail.

Btw Fraudster, as none of your little playmates responded to Xenos' History
of the Flemish Eye, presumably because his assessment was more credible
than yours, here it is! Just so you can't pretend that you never saw it.

Um, no it isn't. It seems quite clear that what you are looking at, and
failing to recognise, is a *Flemish eye splice*. That process makes the
wire into a *perfect eyelet*.

>
> Not even with a washer :)

How odd. I can clearly see a washer *on the stud*. As for a washer under
the nut, it will most likely have that *built into the nut* as is the
case with the nut immediately behind the splice.

>
> Pretty fucking pisseak I thought, so I wondered how many other starters
> are like that? I have a few laying around here so I had a look.
>
> Couple of Mazda ones here:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP
>
> Nope, They both have soldered eyelets.
>
> A Mitsubishi one:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKU
>
> Nope. Crimped eyelet as well.
>
> Even a dirty old Ford V8 starter:
>
>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKW
>
> Yep. Crimped terminal there too.

Crimped terminals are the cheap ones. And the ones more likely to cause
issues long term!

>
> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making their
> cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each Corolla by
> not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.

Well, let's analyse that, shall we. The Flemish eye splice is far from
being a cheap and nasty solution. In fact, it is more involved than
making the same thing with a *crimp connector*. It would involve
significantly more labour cost than a crimped eyelet, that much is
certain. What's more, it is a far more efficacious solution than a
crimped eyelet. Why? Because you are far more likely to get corrosion
build up in the crimp over time.

Now, take a look at that Flemish eyelet splice, see any galvanic
corrosion? See any signs of a poor connection? See any signs of
overheating as a result of a *high resistance* connection? As far as I
can see, the answer would be an emphatic *no* to all the above. In fact,
the connection looks to be as clean and solid as the day it was
installed at the factory. Kudos to Toyota for creating decent design
specifications for the OEM supplier, in this case *Denso*.

>
> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?

The Flemish eye splice is a perfect example of Toyota striving for
*reliability*.

> Oh, what a feeling :)

Did that splice cause an issue? No! Does it look likely to cause an
issue in the *next eleven years*? No! So Toyota gets a tick for
*enhanced reliability*.

*Reliability* is what Toyota are noted for Darren.

And *again* Darren shoots himself in the foot!

You're really making a habit of that Darren!

--
Xeno
----------------------------------------------------


Happy Days

[Yosemite Sam]

plus all his insults, criticism, and abuse

[jonz@ nothere.com]

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Yep, *unfocussed* fixation...:)))

[Yosemite Sam]

anyone else besides me find this love affair between the fraudster and
the village idiot somewhat amusing? considering that at one time jonzie
was regarded by noddy as the dumbest person here.

[Yosemite Sam]

On 2/06/2022 6:16 am, alvey wrote:
> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:02:11 +0800, Clocky wrote:

>
>> On 1/06/2022 9:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around

>> <snip irrelevant>
>>
>> LOL, so you're making a big deal about something that neither affects
>> performance or longevity but failing timing chains and transmissions on
>> Nissans (and Ranger) get a free pass?
>>
>> Your agenda is showing, dickhead.
> Showing that it's arse about. He's gone to this effort to try and score a
> trivial point, but proving his Big Claims is below it?


I had a conversation with noddy recently. it went something like this..

n: did you know I have done three apprenticeships and have two trade
qualifications?

f: well that's impressive. can you post pics of the certificates then?

n: umm... btw I have lots of cable ties. lots.

f: good for you. can we see pics of your qualifications?

n: ok, I post a pic of the cable ties


:)


>
>
> alvey

[Clocky]

On 2/06/2022 7:33 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 6:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>> On 2/6/2022 11:47 am, Noddy wrote:
>
>>> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in
>>> any way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
>>> manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to
>>> Toyota's bank balance.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> As well as saving the price of the terminal the wire that comes out of
>> the starter is also short so maybe by doing it that way they save on
>> terminals and wire, doesn't make much sense to people like us but
>> maybe it makes sense to Denso who make millions of the things.
>

> They do. A few cents on one starter is nothing, but on a few million
> it's a big deal.
>

> It's *still* a dodgy way of wiring up a high current connection :)
>

As a qualified auto sparky and mechanic I know it isn't.

Are you a qualified auto sparky?
No.

Are you a qualified mechanic?
No.

Is your "village idiot" a qualified auto sparky?
No.

Is your "village idiot" a qualified mechanic?
No.

Can you or your "village idiot" show one instance where this connection
type has ever caused any problems on any starter motor?

[insert crickets here]

[Clocky]

On 2/06/2022 8:00 pm, Xeno wrote:

> On 2/6/2022 9:33 pm, Noddy wrote:
>> On 2/06/2022 6:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>> On 2/6/2022 11:47 am, Noddy wrote:
>>
>>>> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in
>>>> any way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
>>>> manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to
>>>> Toyota's bank balance.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> As well as saving the price of the terminal the wire that comes out
>>> of the starter is also short so maybe by doing it that way they save
>>> on terminals and wire, doesn't make much sense to people like us but
>>> maybe it makes sense to Denso who make millions of the things.
>

> FFS, the wire is *looped*.

Don't worry, the first thing he sacrifices is the truth when he's wrong,
again.

The clueless idiot just keeps barging through with clueless abandon
hoping people like his "village idiot" don't notice are too stupid to
see it.

[Calvin]

On Sun, 5 Jun 2022 11:55:55 +1000, Yosemite Sam wrote:

> On 2/06/2022 6:16 am, alvey wrote:
>> On Wed, 1 Jun 2022 22:02:11 +0800, Clocky wrote:
>>
>>> On 1/06/2022 9:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists around
>>> <snip irrelevant>
>>>
>>> LOL, so you're making a big deal about something that neither affects
>>> performance or longevity but failing timing chains and transmissions on
>>> Nissans (and Ranger) get a free pass?
>>>
>>> Your agenda is showing, dickhead.
>> Showing that it's arse about. He's gone to this effort to try and score a
>> trivial point, but proving his Big Claims is below it?
>
> I had a conversation with noddy recently. it went something like this..
>
> n: did you know I have done three apprenticeships and have two trade
> qualifications?
>
> f: well that's impressive. can you post pics of the certificates then?
>
> n: umm... btw I have lots of cable ties. lots.
>
> f: good for you. can we see pics of your qualifications?
>
> n: ok, I post a pic of the cable ties
>
> :)
>

Yep. He's a genius that Gibbens. I wouldn't fancy my chances against him in
chess. He has such incredible foresight.

[Yosemite Sam]

noddy shoots himself in the foot again..

[Yosemite Sam]

On 5/06/2022 12:22 pm, Clocky wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 8:00 pm, Xeno wrote:
>> On 2/6/2022 9:33 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 2/06/2022 6:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 2/6/2022 11:47 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>>>> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation
>>>>> in any way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to
>>>>> component manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than
>>>>> add to Toyota's bank balance.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As well as saving the price of the terminal the wire that comes out
>>>> of the starter is also short so maybe by doing it that way they
>>>> save on terminals and wire, doesn't make much sense to people like
>>>> us but maybe it makes sense to Denso who make millions of the things.
>>
>> FFS, the wire is *looped*.
>
> Don't worry, the first thing he sacrifices is the truth when he's
> wrong, again.
>
> The clueless idiot just keeps barging through with clueless abandon
> hoping people like his "village idiot" don't notice are too stupid to
> see it.
>
>
>
>

seems like deryl and noddy are ppl who should never be let loose near
any cars..

[Xeno]

On 5/6/2022 12:22 pm, Clocky wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 8:00 pm, Xeno wrote:
>> On 2/6/2022 9:33 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 2/06/2022 6:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 2/6/2022 11:47 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>>>> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation in
>>>>> any way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to component
>>>>> manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than add to
>>>>> Toyota's bank balance.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> As well as saving the price of the terminal the wire that comes out
>>>> of the starter is also short so maybe by doing it that way they save
>>>> on terminals and wire, doesn't make much sense to people like us but
>>>> maybe it makes sense to Denso who make millions of the things.
>>
>> FFS, the wire is *looped*.
>
> Don't worry, the first thing he sacrifices is the truth when he's wrong,
> again.
>
> The clueless idiot just keeps barging through with clueless abandon
> hoping people like his "village idiot" don't notice are too stupid to
> see it.
>

Yes, a clear case of a liar defended by idiots.

[Xeno]

On 5/6/2022 12:43 pm, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 5/06/2022 12:22 pm, Clocky wrote:
>> On 2/06/2022 8:00 pm, Xeno wrote:
>>> On 2/6/2022 9:33 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>> On 2/06/2022 6:57 pm, Daryl wrote:
>>>>> On 2/6/2022 11:47 am, Noddy wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> As I said it doesn't seem to have affected the starter operation
>>>>>> in any way, but it is *still* a cheap and nasty approach to
>>>>>> component manufacture that doesn't seem to do anything other than
>>>>>> add to Toyota's bank balance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> As well as saving the price of the terminal the wire that comes out
>>>>> of the starter is also short so maybe by doing it that way they
>>>>> save on terminals and wire, doesn't make much sense to people like
>>>>> us but maybe it makes sense to Denso who make millions of the things.
>>>
>>> FFS, the wire is *looped*.
>>
>> Don't worry, the first thing he sacrifices is the truth when he's
>> wrong, again.
>>
>> The clueless idiot just keeps barging through with clueless abandon
>> hoping people like his "village idiot" don't notice are too stupid to
>> see it.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> seems like deryl and noddy are ppl who should never be let loose near
> any cars..
>

Well, Daryl *self-isolated* for decades when he discovered his true
calling, cleaning, so that was a boon to the motor industry in Victoria.

[Xeno]

Yup, never seen a worse case of foot in mouth (FIM) disease before.

[Xeno]

Lots of crickets up on the Merrimu Mesa! ;-)

[Xeno]

Tragic is what it is.

[keithr0]

On 4/06/2022 4:24 pm, alvey wrote:
> On Sat, 4 Jun 2022 13:13:53 +1000, Noddy wrote:

>> Ever notice how often he resorts to mindless waffle like this whenever
>> he's had his arse handed to him?
>
> Said Fraudster, bravely and mindlessly from behind his mighty killfail.

Remember saying this alvey?


> It's not at all difficult to ignore or killfile
> posters you aren't interested in you know.
>
>
>
> alvey

[keithr0]

No second dumbest, he doesn't ask stupid questions

[keithr0]

On 2/06/2022 11:33 am, Yosemite Sam wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:

>> On 1/6/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists

>>> Not even with a washer :)
>>

>> Rough and cheap as that looks was it actually causing a problem?
>> Only starter that I have here not attached to a car is from a 2005
>> Diahatsu Charade, it has the same "twisted wire" as the Corolla starter.
>> I know it works because I started the engine to test it before
>> removing the engine, couldn't use it because it fits an auto and son's
>> Mira is manual.
>> I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into
>> the right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a
>> terminal so maybe there is another reason?
>>
>>
>
> by twisting the cable the entire cable is in contact with the bolt and
> nut so a greater capacity to pass more current than if a crimped on
> connector were used

Bullshit, there will be more area in contact to a correct size lug than
squashing the cable. Putting the cable between the nut and the base only
gives two points of contact, a correctly done crimp will contact the
entire circumference of the cable, and the log will have considerably
more contact area than this kludge.

[keithr0]

On 2/06/2022 7:34 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 2/6/2022 6:57 pm, Daryl wrote:

>> On 2/6/2022 11:47 am, Noddy wrote:
>>> On 2/06/2022 10:39 am, Daryl wrote:
>>>> On 1/6/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>>
>>>>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>>>>
>>>>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead
>>>>> of having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the
>>>>> end of it like most other starters this one is just wrapped around
>>>>> the stud and jammed in place with the nut.
>>>>>
>>>>> Not even with a washer :)
>>>>
>>>> Rough and cheap as that looks was it actually causing a problem?
>>>

>>> Not that I'm aware of. According to the owner this is the first time
>>> the car's had a starter problem since she bought it new 11 years ago,
>>> and from what I can tell the problem that developed isn't related to
>>> the lead connection.
>>>
>>> However that doesn't remove the fact that the connection method
>>> itself is pretty pissweak for a high current application. Most people
>>> would be reluctant to have their battery leads secured in such a way....

>>>
>>>> Only starter that I have here not attached to a car is from a 2005
>>>> Diahatsu Charade, it has the same "twisted wire" as the Corolla
>>>> starter.
>>>> I know it works because I started the engine to test it before
>>>> removing the engine, couldn't use it because it fits an auto and
>>>> son's Mira is manual.
>>>

>>> Is it a Denso starter by any chance? I wonder if that's their policy.
>
> No, Denso will make a starter according to the *manufacturer's*
> specification. Note, Daihatsu falls under the *Toyota family* umbrella!
>>
>> Yes Denso made in Japan.

>>>
>>>> I wonder if it is cheaper to do it that way, twisting the wire into
>>>> the right shape would take longer and more effort than crimping a
>>>> terminal so maybe there is another reason?
>

> Yes, creating a Flemish eyelet splice takes longer and requires much
> more effort than crimping a terminal but it creates a perfect strong
> eyelet and a perfect *high current* electrical connection. Note, the
> splice in the pic looks like an 8 strand eye splice in rope. As such, it
> is not an easy thing to do, especially on a very tight splice on the
> starter with *copper wire*.

The thing is that it isn't spliced, it's just twisted, and you can see
where the nut has dragged the eye round because they were too cheap to
put a 0.2c washer under the nut.

[keithr0]

As a qualified electronics tech who has fixed dozens of nasty
intermittent problems caused by bad connections, I say that this is a
cheap and nasty job, unfortunately typical of modern production
engineering. As for "has this connection type has ever caused any
problems on any starter motor", who knows, I'm sure that you don't.

[Xeno]

Looks spliced to me.

[Xeno]

TBH, the connection, after 11 years, still looks perfect and would stay
that way for another 11 years. Or more!

[keithr0]

On 2/06/2022 4:34 pm, Xeno wrote:
> On 1/6/2022 11:26 pm, Noddy wrote:
>>

>> Just because we all know how much of a knot the Toyota apologists
>> around here like to get their knickers in, just thought I'd share
>> another little "Toyota Tidbit" I discovered yesterday.
>>
>> I was doing a small love job on a 2011 Corolla that belongs to the
>> mother of the lady who washes my dog. It had a problem with the
>> starter that made a horrible noise when you cranked the engine and
>> she'd been quoted some stupid amount of money to have it replaced
>> which she wasn't keep on paying as she was selling the car soon and
>> didn't want to fork out on it unless she had to.
>>
>> So I told her to bring it over and I'll take a peek. Long story short
>> when you cranked the engine it sounded like the starter pinion wasn't
>> retracting quick enough causing either a mesh or overspeed issue, and
>> as the starter on this particular model takes all of 10 minutes to get
>> out I thought I would take it out and have a look.
>>
>> Turns out the starter was full of clutch dust and dry, hardened
>> grease, and after a quick dismantle and clean and some new grease it
>> was put back together and back in the car and it's all working as it
>> should.
>>
>> Anyway, onto the interesting bit.
>>
>> This is the starter here. Nothing special:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MK7
>>

>> This is what I found when I removed the solenoid:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG
>>
>> The field coil lead attaches directly to the solenoid, but instead of
>> having an eyelet or ring terminal soldered or crimped onto the end of
>> it like most other starters this one is just wrapped around the stud
>> and jammed in place with the nut.
>

> Um, no it isn't. It seems quite clear that what you are looking at, and
> failing to recognise, is a *Flemish eye splice*. That process makes the
> wire into a *perfect eyelet*.
>>

>> Not even with a washer :)
>

> How odd. I can clearly see a washer *on the stud*. As for a washer under
> the nut, it will most likely have that *built into the nut* as is the
> case with the nut immediately behind the splice.
>>
>> Pretty fucking pisseak I thought, so I wondered how many other
>> starters are like that? I have a few laying around here so I had a look.
>>
>> Couple of Mazda ones here:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKP
>>
>> Nope, They both have soldered eyelets.
>>
>> A Mitsubishi one:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKU
>>
>> Nope. Crimped eyelet as well.
>>
>> Even a dirty old Ford V8 starter:
>>
>>> https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKW
>>
>> Yep. Crimped terminal there too.
>
> Crimped terminals are the cheap ones. And the ones more likely to cause
> issues long term!

Not if it is done properly. You don't see this kind of stuff on
professional equipment.

>> Cool, huh? Looks like Toyota has been actively engaged in making their
>> cars as cheap as they possibly can by saving 4 cents on each Corolla
>> by not using a proper terminal on the starter coil wire.
>
> Well, let's analyse that, shall we. The Flemish eye splice is far from
> being a cheap and nasty solution. In fact, it is more involved than
> making the same thing with a *crimp connector*. It would involve
> significantly more labour cost than a crimped eyelet, that much is
> certain. What's more, it is a far more efficacious solution than a
> crimped eyelet. Why? Because you are far more likely to get corrosion
> build up in the crimp over time.

It ain't a Flemish splice, the wire is just twisted, and you're wrong
about the corrosion too.

> Now, take a look at that Flemish eyelet splice, see any galvanic
> corrosion? See any signs of a poor connection? See any signs of
> overheating as a result of a *high resistance* connection? As far as I
> can see, the answer would be an emphatic *no* to all the above. In fact,
> the connection looks to be as clean and solid as the day it was
> installed at the factory. Kudos to Toyota for creating decent design
> specifications for the OEM supplier, in this case *Denso*.

I doubt that Toyota really care as long as it works and keeps working
for the warranty period.

>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
>
> The Flemish eye splice is a perfect example of Toyota striving for
> *reliability*.

Maybe it would if it was a "Flemish splice".

>> Oh, what a feeling :)
>
> Did that splice cause an issue? No! Does it look likely to cause an
> issue in the *next eleven years*? No! So Toyota gets a tick for
> *enhanced reliability*.

Nope, and neither would a lug. *enhanced reliability*? No more than
you'd expect.

[keithr0]

https://balbirsinghandsons.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/flemish-eye.jpg

Now compare to

https://www.imagebam.com/view/MEB3MKG

Not the same thing at all is it?

[Xeno]

On 5/6/2022 2:42 pm, keithr0 wrote:

The washer, as I noted previously, is built into the nut. The wire
appears to have frayed a little on the undoing. Not a big issue in the
overall scheme of things.

Also, you can see the wire diameter at the splice is *larger* than that
at the loop, even after the loop area was flattened somewhat. That is
typical of a Flemish eye splice and I have seen similar things in steel
wire splices made by riggers. A simple twist would look quite different,
not to mention, lumpy! Also, a simple twist would not hold together as
well as that splice has.

[Noddy]

Absolutely. There is no reason whatsoever to resort to this rubbish than
it being a ridiculous cost cutting measure.

[Noddy]

The dumbest person in this group by a *very* long way is Felix. With 7
years of daylight between him and anyone running second...

[Noddy]

Yet another example of the hypocrisy on daily display.

[Xeno]

No but you picked the wrong Flemish eye splice, there are many many
varieties.

If you had ever done those on a hemp rope, you would know that the
ferrule is not needed in many (most?) cases as the free unravelled
strands, if properly placed, lock into the rope strands and provide a
very strong connection. Amazingly strong in fact. I have done such
splices in hemp ropes but not in wire ropes but the technique is much
the same. I would imagine doing one in relatively flexible copper wire
would be less difficult than doing one in wire rope. I would also
imagine that, in any factory producing those field coil sets, that there
would be a jig set up for the task.

[Xeno]

Toyota do care and their reputation for reliability is the end result.
What you see is an example of "kaizen".

>
>>> Remind me again why some people think everything they make is fantastic?
>>
>> The Flemish eye splice is a perfect example of Toyota striving for
>> *reliability*.
>
> Maybe it would if it was a "Flemish splice".
>
>>> Oh, what a feeling :)
>>
>> Did that splice cause an issue? No! Does it look likely to cause an
>> issue in the *next eleven years*? No! So Toyota gets a tick for
>> *enhanced reliability*.
>
> Nope, and neither would a lug. *enhanced reliability*? No more than
> you'd expect.
>
>> *Reliability* is what Toyota are noted for Darren.
>>
>> And *again* Darren shoots himself in the foot!
>>
>> You're really making a habit of that Darren!
>>
>

[Noddy]

This is a perfect example of how the "licensing system" in Western
Australia does *nothing* to remove the clueless woodducks from the trade.

What this brainless cretin's mantra seems to be that if it doesn't cause
a problem then it's acceptable practice. I see. So, if I walked up to
whatever heap of bunky shit he dives these days and took a wheel nut off
each wheel I presume he'd have no problem with that is it wouldn't cause
a problem either, right?

This bloke is a fucking idiot and you wouldn't let him work on your car
if someone held a gun to your head. He claims to be a qualified auto
electrician and sees this kind of cheap-arsed connection method as okay.
But I'll bet you *any* money you like if I'd installed a light bar on
someone's car and wired the relay straight to the battery by loosening
the nut on the positive battery terminal, stripping some insulation off
the wire, wrapping the bare wire around the bolt and jamming it tight
with the nut you would hear this fucking idiot and his mates screaming
from Mars about how rough it was despite it being not the slightest bit
different to what was shown in the photo.

As I've said before, there is a reason why this moron fits mudflaps and
snorkels for a living....

[Xeno]

Crimping a connector *without soldering* is the cheap way Darren. The
splice would require more effort but would be more effective long term.
That splice has already exceeded the design life of the car and would
easily double the current life span.

[Xeno]

Yes, your post certainly is hypocrisy on daily display Darren.

[Noddy]

Spot on. It wasn't spliced at all, it was just a straight length of
braided wire that was cut and wrapped around the stud, and it was
stretched around as the nut flattened it out and pulled it tight.

I have to genuinely laugh out loud at the claim of "Flemish Eyelet"
though, and wonder what on Earth could ever make anyone with a
functioning brain ever think how a process for making loops in the ends
of wire ropes and slings would have any relevance to electrical cable
connections.

Of course, I'm reminded of the fact that we're talking about someone
who's standard operating procedure is to make nonsensical crap up on the
fly to impress people like Felix.

[Xeno]

Well, you can't work in the trade in WA or in NSW so the licencing
system is doing its job in those states. If the VACC had their way in
Victoria, you'd be out on your arse in that state as well.

>
> What this brainless cretin's mantra seems to be that if it doesn't cause
> a problem then it's acceptable practice. I see. So, if I walked up to
> whatever heap of bunky shit he dives these days and took a wheel nut off
> each wheel I presume he'd have no problem with that is it wouldn't cause
> a problem either, right?

Your example shows you haven't a clue!

>
> This bloke is a fucking idiot and you wouldn't let him work on your car
> if someone held a gun to your head. He claims to be a qualified auto
> electrician and sees this kind of cheap-arsed connection method as okay.
> But I'll bet you *any* money you like if I'd installed a light bar on
> someone's car and wired the relay straight to the battery by loosening
> the nut on the positive battery terminal, stripping some insulation off
> the wire, wrapping the bare wire around the bolt and jamming it tight
> with the nut you would hear this fucking idiot and his mates screaming
> from Mars about how rough it was despite it being not the slightest bit
> different to what was shown in the photo.
>
> As I've said before, there is a reason why this moron fits mudflaps and
> snorkels for a living....
>

And there's a very good reason you could even get any apprenticeship
ever and had to bullshit about completing 2.

[Noddy]

On 5/06/2022 3:05 pm, keithr0 wrote:
> On 2/06/2022 4:34 pm, Xeno wrote:

>> Crimped terminals are the cheap ones. And the ones more likely to
>> cause issues long term!
>
> Not if it is done properly. You don't see this kind of stuff on
> professional equipment.

You don't see it on a lot of automotive equipment either.

Starter motors have had crimped or soldered connectors on their field
coil leads for decades, and it's never been a problem. It's not a
universally known problematic area of operation, and claiming that the
terminal type connections are the ones likely to cause issues is a
complete and utter nonsense.

>> Well, let's analyse that, shall we. The Flemish eye splice is far from
>> being a cheap and nasty solution. In fact, it is more involved than
>> making the same thing with a *crimp connector*. It would involve
>> significantly more labour cost than a crimped eyelet, that much is
>> certain. What's more, it is a far more efficacious solution than a
>> crimped eyelet. Why? Because you are far more likely to get corrosion
>> build up in the crimp over time.
>
> It ain't a Flemish splice, the wire is just twisted, and you're wrong
> about the corrosion too.

He's wrong about everything, as usual, and the "Flemish eye splice"
stuff is pure comedy gold. I reckon you could go from here to Jupiter
and not ever hear that term used in automotive electrics :)

>> Now, take a look at that Flemish eyelet splice, see any galvanic
>> corrosion? See any signs of a poor connection? See any signs of
>> overheating as a result of a *high resistance* connection? As far as I
>> can see, the answer would be an emphatic *no* to all the above. In
>> fact, the connection looks to be as clean and solid as the day it was
>> installed at the factory. Kudos to Toyota for creating decent design
>> specifications for the OEM supplier, in this case *Denso*.
>
> I doubt that Toyota really care as long as it works and keeps working
> for the warranty period.

As I said in an earlier post, Denso supplied the starter to Toyota and I
agree with you that Toyota couldn't care less how it was made as long as
could be demonstrated to meet the working requirement and the price point.

>> The Flemish eye splice is a perfect example of Toyota striving for
>> *reliability*.
>
> Maybe it would if it was a "Flemish splice".

ROTFL :) Seriously, how stupid *is* this bloke? "Striving for
reliability" with a component that has *already* demonstrated decades of
it?

Bwahahahahahaha :)

>> Did that splice cause an issue? No! Does it look likely to cause an
>> issue in the *next eleven years*? No! So Toyota gets a tick for
>> *enhanced reliability*.
>
> Nope, and neither would a lug. *enhanced reliability*? No more than
> you'd expect.

I'd happily bet the farm tomorrow that dispensing with the terminal and
resorting to wrapping the coil lead around the stud directly was nothing
other than a cost cutting venture designed to shave a few cents of the
unit price, with the idea that it was done to "improve reliability" to
be a complete and utter nonsense.

[Xeno]

On 5/6/2022 3:50 pm, Noddy wrote:
> On 5/06/2022 2:42 pm, keithr0 wrote:
>> On 2/06/2022 7:34 pm, Xeno wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Yes, creating a Flemish eyelet splice takes longer and requires much
>>> more effort than crimping a terminal but it creates a perfect strong
>>> eyelet and a perfect *high current* electrical connection. Note, the
>>> splice in the pic looks like an 8 strand eye splice in rope. As such,
>>> it is not an easy thing to do, especially on a very tight splice on
>>> the starter with *copper wire*.
>>
>> The thing is that it isn't spliced, it's just twisted, and you can see
>> where the nut has dragged the eye round because they were too cheap to
>> put a 0.2c washer under the nut.
>
> Spot on. It wasn't spliced at all, it was just a straight length of

You can see the splice Darren. BTW, thanks for the clear pic.

> braided wire that was cut and wrapped around the stud, and it was
> stretched around as the nut flattened it out and pulled it tight.

So please explain why the loop didn't just open up when you undid the
nut. After all, the pic you supplied shows that the nut applied quite
some considerable anti-clockwise force onto the loop but it didn't open
up. Nah, don't explain, it's obvious to anyone with functioning brain
cells that the loop is *spliced* and that is what prevented the eyelet
from opening up upon removal.

>
> I have to genuinely laugh out loud at the claim of "Flemish Eyelet"
> though, and wonder what on Earth could ever make anyone with a
> functioning brain ever think how a process for making loops in the ends
> of wire ropes and slings would have any relevance to electrical cable
> connections.

The Flemish Eye makes the strongest connection in braided ropes of any
type.

>
> Of course, I'm reminded of the fact that we're talking about someone
> who's standard operating procedure is to make nonsensical crap up on the
> fly to impress people like Felix.
>

It is a method of putting loops in braided wire or rope of *any type*.
The method of doing the splice is much the same regardless of the *rope
material used.

[Noddy]

On 5/06/2022 3:09 pm, keithr0 wrote:

Not even close.

A "flemish eye" is not a valid electrical connection. It is a means of
putting a permanent loop in the end of a wire rope or sling to be used
as a grab or hook point, and to suggest that it has been purposely done
in this instance is ridiculous.

But then we're talking about the FLC here, and "ridiculous" is their
main play.