Lowering a VL Commodore
Taryn Hauritz
I have a VL commodore with 14 inch wheels, 215 front and 225 back.
It has Monroe Formula Gti suspension on it at the moment. I want to lower
it down a few inches and I was wondering whether I have to replace the
suspension and shokies I have now or do I just need new springs?
I was also wondering about the legality of lowering and how low you can go
legally also how much does it cost to have it done. I imagine you would
need special spring compressors to do it yourself?
Justin
Tim McAlister
ch...@die.spambot.die (Chris) wrote:
>
>Don't go too low or you'll just have an uncomfortable ride and will increase
>suspension wear. Check the roads and traffic branch for legalities, but also
>make sure you check with your insurance company. I know NRMA (RACQ where you
>are?) can get pretty nervous when you say words like "lower" or "modify" even
>when sometimes it means "make safer".
>
>Chris.
Heyya, Guys!
I own a VL Turbo that I wanted to lower a little bit (not
ridiculously). NRMA were fairly helpful, and advised that the centre
of the headlights had to be AT LEAST 600mm from the ground, and that
the car could not be lowered more than 1/3 of it's original height. I
was able to lower mine by about 2 inches at the front, and have also
dropped the back by about an inch. I have also put in fairly thick
sway-bars, to which NRMA had no objection.
Hope this helps (and I hope your insurance mob is cool about it!)
Oh, the new springs cost - about - from memory - $130 a pair. Someone
else did the front springs for me (the "spring compressor" needed),
but the rear springs are a 20 minute job to fit.
Tim McAlister.
Marty Nash
I have a VL commodore that I lowered 1 1/2 half inches all round. As I
was fitting new shocks as well, I went for Koni Sports. Koni make
shorter shocks for lowered cars, because if you put the normal length
shocks in, they could 'bottom out' and get damaged and/or ruined. I put
these in the back, and in the front I put the normal Koni struts in the
front. These are quite ok for the amount being lowered.
If you choose to go lower than this you will need to get (at the least)
the front shocks limited, but be warned, for Koni's it's about 80
dollars a shock. I don't about the Monroe's, you would probably have to
ring them.
I chose 1 1/2 inches as the springs are sold over the counter, and do
not have to be made up. I've also heard that anything lower than this is
illegal (NSW). Maybe someone else can clarify this point.
If I were to put shorter springs in it again I would definitely go for
variable rate springs, for a smoother ride.
I've also read that commodores should not be lowered more than 2 inches
as it starts to affect the suspension and steering geometry. (Why you
would want lower than 2 inches for street use is beyond me, how do you
get up driveways and over speed humps etc etc., each to their own I
s'pose, but anyway I digress.)
I also fitted a 27mm front sway bar and a 20mm rear, and this improved
cornering a lot. I'm running 15 inch rims with 215's all round, with no
problems, and I wouldn't think you'd have trouble with the 225s.
--
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
| Marty Nash mar...@b202csl.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au |
| North Sydney College of TAFE http://www.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au |
| Guildford Model Railway Group |
| http://www.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au/ee/~martyn/gmrg.html |
|---------------------------------------------------------------------|
Adam F
In article <52faq5$b...@hercules.its.csiro.au>, ch...@die.spambot.die (Chris) says:
>
>In article <52cpqm$2...@hobyah.cc.uq.oz.au>, s32...@student.uq.edu.au (Taryn Hauritz) wrote:
>>I have a VL commodore with 14 inch wheels, 215 front and 225 back.
>>It has Monroe Formula Gti suspension on it at the moment. I want to lower
>>it down a few inches and I was wondering whether I have to replace the
>>suspension and shokies I have now or do I just need new springs?
>>I was also wondering about the legality of lowering and how low you can go
>>legally also how much does it cost to have it done. I imagine you would
>>need special spring compressors to do it yourself?
>
>
>Shocks are supposed to dampen the bouncing of the springs. If you put very
>stiff springs on then you will probably need to upgrade your shocks to
>compensate - otherwise you'll look like another one of those dicks in the
>lowered car that bounces around everywhere when they go over the tiniest of
>bumps.
A good rule of thumb is that you must be able to fit a 375ml can under
the car, including things like exhaust etc.
I have notcied most cars that are lowered pretty good but there is a hell
of a lot of VB/C/H/K Commodores around that have been lowered so much it
looks bad and must drive terible!
>Don't go too low or you'll just have an uncomfortable ride and will increase
>suspension wear. Check the roads and traffic branch for legalities, but also
>make sure you check with your insurance company. I know NRMA (RACQ where you
>are?) can get pretty nervous when you say words like "lower" or "modify" even
>when sometimes it means "make safer".
Its pretty anoying. Try insurance people that deal in hot cars, they are
usually not that expensive and alow basically all the usual not over the
top mods like exhausts, suspension etc.
--
Adam Fairbank // Email...... ad...@iaccess.com.au
Melbourne, Australia // Telephone.. +61-411-159-829
Mike Dunstall
Marty Nash says:
>
>I have a VL commodore that I lowered 1 1/2 half inches all round. As I
>was fitting new shocks as well, I went for Koni Sports. Koni make
>shorter shocks for lowered cars, because if you put the normal length
>shocks in, they could 'bottom out' and get damaged and/or ruined. I put
>these in the back, and in the front I put the normal Koni struts in the
>front. These are quite ok for the amount being lowered.
>
If you do not limit the travel (extension) of the shock the rear spring
can come out of its mounts when you jack up the car. This is because the
free length of the new spring is less than the one it replaced (naturaly).
At the front you will have to compress the spring to assemble the strut
and any problem there would be immediately obvious.
>I've also read that commodores should not be lowered more than 2 inches
>as it starts to affect the suspension and steering geometry. (Why you
>would want lower than 2 inches for street use is beyond me, how do you
>get up driveways and over speed humps etc etc., each to their own I
>s'pose, but anyway I digress.)
Going too low will give a lot of negative camber - to the point of being
a bit much of a good thing.
Mike
Chris
In article <324F30...@b202csl.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au>, mar...@b202csl.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au wrote:
>Taryn Hauritz wrote:
>>
>> I have a VL commodore with 14 inch wheels, 215 front and 225 back.
You haven't told us what width rim you use. Don't go the balloon and put
massive tyres on thin rims. I've talked to heaps of tyre specialists and they
recommend no more than 195 on 6" and 205-215 on 7". Anyone have any thoughts
on this?
Plus, if you're gonna get fatties, get good ones. The increased surface area
of the tyre will mean reduced traction and more chance of aquaplaning in the
wet, and the increased width may make steering heavier.
Chris.
Gavin Walker
Marty Nash wrote:
>
> was fitting new shocks as well, I went for Koni Sports. Koni make
> shorter shocks for lowered cars, because if you put the normal length
> shocks in, they could 'bottom out' and get damaged and/or ruined. I
The other reason for the shorter shock is keep your rear springs in.
My SD1 was lowered an inch with normal shocks. At full extension on
the rear end the rear springs would twang as they came off their
seating.
--
_--_|\ -|- Gavin Walker
/ \ |
\_.--.*/ <- Canberra, gavin....@dit.csiro.au
v Australia Phone +61-6-2167030 Fax +61-6-2167111
Nathan Wong
ch...@die.spambot.die (Chris) wrote:
>In article <324F30...@b202csl.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au>, mar...@b202csl.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au wrote:
>>Taryn Hauritz wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a VL commodore with 14 inch wheels, 215 front and 225 back.
>You haven't told us what width rim you use. Don't go the balloon and put
>massive tyres on thin rims. I've talked to heaps of tyre specialists and they
>recommend no more than 195 on 6" and 205-215 on 7". Anyone have any thoughts
>on this?
Commodores come with 205s on a 6" rim, and have done for years.
And a recommended replacement tyre for the old 185/75R14 tyres on the
early Falcs and Commodores is a 215/65R14, which would be on a 5.5"
rim. Not great for handling, but willride okay.
225 width are the max recommended for a 7" rim.
--
Nathan Wong Team Quadrifoglio
6th Outright/6th Handicap
Alfa...@nectar.com.au 1995 AROCA 6 Hour Relay Race
http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors/
Chris
Nathan Wong wrote:
>Commodores come with 205s on a 6" rim, and have done for years.
>And a recommended replacement tyre for the old 185/75R14 tyres on the
>early Falcs and Commodores is a 215/65R14, which would be on a 5.5"
>rim. Not great for handling, but willride okay.
>225 width are the max recommended for a 7" rim.
[sorry this is like, way late, but my newsreader hates me]
215 on a 5.5" rim?? Isn't that a tad dangerous? The tyre will be wobbling and
flexing all over the place which will cause heat build up.
Chris.
Chris Maunder (ch...@cbr.dwr.csiro.au)
CSIRO Canberra, Australia
[All views expressed herein are mine, not those of my employer.]
Peter Kootsookos
In article <53h8p5$3...@hercules.its.csiro.au> ch...@die.spambot.die (Chris) writes:
[sorry this is like, way late, but my newsreader hates me]
215 on a 5.5" rim?? Isn't that a tad dangerous? The tyre will be wobbling and
flexing all over the place which will cause heat build up.
I was advised that the widest I could go to with a 5.5" rim was 195s.
To go to 205s, I needed 6" wide wheels... 215 on 5.5" does sound a bit
precarious.
Ciao,
Peter K.
--
Peter J. Kootsookos, E-mail: Peter.Ko...@anu.edu.au
CRASys, Dept of Systems Engineering, Work Phone : +61 6 279 8618 (NEW)
ANU, ACT 0200, AUSTRALIA Fax : +61 6 279 8615 (NEW)
http://wwwsyseng.anu.edu.au/~pjk101 Mobile : +61 41 126 5982
Nathan Wong
ch...@die.spambot.die (Chris) wrote:
>[sorry this is like, way late, but my newsreader hates me]
>215 on a 5.5" rim?? Isn't that a tad dangerous? The tyre will be wobbling and
>flexing all over the place which will cause heat build up.
That's what I believed, but maybe for the suburban Commodore/Falcons
it might be alright, but for any performance driving, you'd best have
the tyre slightly stretched onto the rim.
E.g. 195 on a 7" rim.
Also Japanese tyres tend to be wider than European ones.
Our set of 195 Yokohamas are as wide as our set of 205
Pirellis....food for thought....
--
Nathan Wong Alfa...@nectar.com.au
Team Quadrifoglio http://www.nectar.com.au/~alfacors
6th Outright/Handicap Super Touring and Motorsport Links
Chris
In article <53k0r3$1...@news.mel.aone.net.au>, alfa...@nectar.com.au wrote:
>ch...@die.spambot.die (Chris) wrote:
>>
>>215 on a 5.5" rim?? Isn't that a tad dangerous? The tyre will be wobbling and
>>flexing all over the place which will cause heat build up.
>
>That's what I believed, but maybe for the suburban Commodore/Falcons
>it might be alright, but for any performance driving, you'd best have
>the tyre slightly stretched onto the rim.
>E.g. 195 on a 7" rim.
>Also Japanese tyres tend to be wider than European ones.
>Our set of 195 Yokohamas are as wide as our set of 205
>Pirellis....food for thought....
Yeah - I just bought some Yokos - and the salesman was going on about how
their tyres are 10mm wider than their competitors tyres - and I was thinking -
so why not just call them 205's instead of 195's?
It reminded me of Spinal Tap: "but this amp goes to eleven"
Marty Nash
Chris wrote:
> >>215 on a 5.5" rim?? Isn't that a tad dangerous? The tyre will be wobbling and
> >>flexing all over the place which will cause heat build up.
> >
> >That's what I believed, but maybe for the suburban Commodore/Falcons
> >it might be alright, but for any performance driving, you'd best have
> >the tyre slightly stretched onto the rim.
> >E.g. 195 on a 7" rim.
What are the advantages for street use in having a wider rim for the tyres?
Eg: I have 215's on 6" rims, would I get any advantage in putting these tyres on 7" rims
for street use. Would it make any difference and if so by how much?
Later, Marty
--
mar...@b202csl.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au
Nathan Wong
Marty Nash <mar...@b202csl.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au> wrote:
>What are the advantages for street use in having a wider rim for the tyres?
The only real advantage is with performance cars. Stretching the tyre
across the rim holds it firmer, and prevents the sidewalls from
flexing as much. Great for roadholding, not so great for the ride, and
even less great for idiots who park too close to kerbs
(scrrrrraaaaaattttccchhhh)
>Eg: I have 215's on 6" rims, would I get any advantage in putting these tyres on 7" rims
>for street use. Would it make any difference and if so by how much?
Your ride might get a little harsher, but the tyres will grip better,
and they won't "roll under" during hard cornering.
Even still, 215s are a pretty wide tyre, even on 7" rims.
Neil Gerace
: > >>215 on a 5.5" rim?? Isn't that a tad dangerous? The tyre will be
: > >>flexing all over the place which will cause heat build up.
: > >
: > >That's what I believed, but maybe for the suburban Commodore/Falcons
: > >it might be alright, but for any performance driving, you'd best have
: > >the tyre slightly stretched onto the rim.
: > >E.g. 195 on a 7" rim.
Friendly warning: tyres these days have a minimum and maximum legal rim
width stamped on the sidewall, something like this:
RIM WIDTH CODE MIN 5 MAX 7
Stay within these limits and your tyre's warranty is safe, all other
things being equal.
I think 5.5 is too narrow for 215, but I could be wrong, so check the
sidewall. Best to go wider if you can afford it (you have a better choice of
wheels in 6" and 7" anyway).
PS Performance driving means different things to different people. For
me, I love driving on gravel where wider tyres won't help at all. Better to
get some narrower tyres which will cut into and grip the road better (but
don't let the cops see your rally tyres, they're not generally legal).
----
Neil S. Gerace / ger...@perth.DIALix.oz.au / Belhus, Western Australia
Nathan Wong
Aardwolf <se1...@itis.com> wrote:
>Nathan Wong wrote:
>> Even still, 215s are a pretty wide tyre, even on 7" rims.
>Standard Stateside for our big barges with 15X7" wheels, since the '70's.
>At least performance oriented ones.
Those "performance oriented" barges are nothing compared to the Aussie
products like HSV Commodores and Tickford Falcons.
American cars tend to have lots of go in a straightline, but no
styling, and no handling and no brakes.
I remember reading about a Chev Monte Carlo SS, went like buggery, but
looked like something from the mi-80s and didnt handle worth a damn.
Chris
In article <54i4gj$g...@news.mel.aone.net.au>, alfa...@nectar.com.au wrote:
>Marty Nash <mar...@b202csl.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au> wrote:
>
>>What are the advantages for street use in having a wider rim for the tyres?
>>tyres on 7" rims for street use. Would it make any difference and if so by
>> how much?
>
>across the rim holds it firmer, and prevents the sidewalls from
215's on 7" is not stretching. 215's on 6" is ballooning. Tyres are just not
designed to work like this. If you put too wide a tyre on a rim, then I'm sure
the ballooning you get will mean that the tread will not be anywhere near as
effective as it sould be. See Neil Gerace's post.
Sidewall flex is bad. The steel in the steel radials bends and heats and can
cause blowouts if it heats too much. Going for a fatter tyre for a given rim
in order to have a softer ride is pretty dumb - just go for a smoother/softer
tyre if that's what you want.
I don't think the only advantage is with performance cars. I think going for
the correct wheel width for the given rim width is necessary for ALL cars.
Thing is, most people who upgrade to wider tyres enjoy driving their cars, and
so are going to push it a little harder than normal. It's especially important
to get your wheels and tyres correct in this case. The only thing holding you
onto the road is your four tyres, each with a footprint about as big as your
hand.
>Even still, 215s are a pretty wide tyre, even on 7" rims.
Have to agree on that one.
Just my thoughts - comments welcome.
Chris Maunder (ch...@cbr.dwr.csiro.au)
CSIRO Canberra, Australia
#include <disclaimer.h>
seg...@massey.ac.nz
Nathan wrote:
>American cars tend to have lots of go in a straightline, but no
>styling, and no handling and no brakes.
>I remember reading about a Chev Monte Carlo SS, went like buggery, but
>looked like something from the mi-80s and didnt handle worth a damn.
>
these embarrass plenty of Euro machinery.
Then theres the modified Camaros, Corvettes and Mustangs......
Not quite in the horror league as the true whales, but not ALL US cars
handle badly. Nor do they all have useless brakes.
Not all Euro machinery is that grouse at corners and stopping either....
Nathan Wong
seg...@massey.ac.nz wrote:
>Obviously you haven't seen a Viper or a new Camaro race (Classic cars here)
>these embarrass plenty of Euro machinery.
>Then theres the modified Camaros, Corvettes and Mustangs......
>Not quite in the horror league as the true whales, but not ALL US cars
>handle badly. Nor do they all have useless brakes.
Is that why Vipers don't have ABS? And why can't they make a Viper
with a decent exhaust note? :-)
Modified cars don't get a look in, coz we are talking about showroom
cars. I'm sure you can get any car to handle after you modify it.....
>Not all Euro machinery is that grouse at corners and stopping either....
There are heaps more Euro cars that handle compared to US cars. Even
run of the mill BMWs like their 528 and 328 are brilliant compared to
the equivalent US-made cars.
Nathan Wong
ch...@die.spambot.die (Chris) wrote:
>215's on 7" is not stretching. 215's on 6" is ballooning. Tyres are just not
>designed to work like this. If you put too wide a tyre on a rim, then I'm sure
>the ballooning you get will mean that the tread will not be anywhere near as
>effective as it sould be. See Neil Gerace's post.
I never said 215s on a 7" is stretching. 195s on a 7" rim is
stretching. Depending on the tyre, a 215 may not be ballooning as much
as you think. Japanese barnd tyres tend to be baggier than European
tyres (esp. Pirellis). A 205 Pirelli is only just as wide as a 195
yokohama. The standard 205 tyres on a Commodore are quite baggy (on a
6" rim) yet thats how it comes as standard.
>Sidewall flex is bad. The steel in the steel radials bends and heats and can
>cause blowouts if it heats too much. Going for a fatter tyre for a given rim
>in order to have a softer ride is pretty dumb - just go for a smoother/softer
>tyre if that's what you want.
Sidewall flex happens in every tyre, no matter how stretched. The more
its stretched, the less the flex. But not all cars need (or want) the
tyre stretched onto the rim. Yes it's good, but not always for all
cars.
>I don't think the only advantage is with performance cars. I think going for
>the correct wheel width for the given rim width is necessary for ALL cars.
>Thing is, most people who upgrade to wider tyres enjoy driving their cars, and
>so are going to push it a little harder than normal. It's especially important
>to get your wheels and tyres correct in this case. The only thing holding you
>onto the road is your four tyres, each with a footprint about as big as your
>hand.
people who go to wider tyres usually buy wider wheels to go with them.
otherwise they just buy better spec tyres.
Dennis Jensen
In article <54m9ik$8...@hercules.its.csiro.au>,
ch...@die.spambot.die (Chris) wrote:
>In article <54i4gj$g...@news.mel.aone.net.au>, alfa...@nectar.com.au wrote:
>>Marty Nash <mar...@b202csl.nsydtafe.nsw.edu.au> wrote:
>>
>>>What are the advantages for street use in having a wider rim for the tyres?
>>>Eg: I have 215's on 6" rims, would I get any advantage in putting these
>>>tyres on 7" rims for street use. Would it make any difference and if so by
>>> how much?
>>
>>The only real advantage is with performance cars. Stretching the tyre
>>across the rim holds it firmer, and prevents the sidewalls from
>>flexing as much. Great for roadholding, not so great for ride.
>
>designed to work like this. If you put too wide a tyre on a rim, then I'm
sure
>the ballooning you get will mean that the tread will not be anywhere near as
>effective as it sould be. See Neil Gerace's post.
>
>Sidewall flex is bad. The steel in the steel radials bends and heats and can
>cause blowouts if it heats too much.
Sorry, there is no steel in the sidewalls. The steel belts run around the
circumference of the tyre (i.e. the tread).
>Going for a fatter tyre for a given rim
>in order to have a softer ride is pretty dumb - just go for a smoother/softer
>tyre if that's what you want.
>
>I don't think the only advantage is with performance cars. I think going for
>the correct wheel width for the given rim width is necessary for ALL cars.
>Thing is, most people who upgrade to wider tyres enjoy driving their cars,
and
>so are going to push it a little harder than normal. It's especially
important
>to get your wheels and tyres correct in this case. The only thing holding you
>onto the road is your four tyres, each with a footprint about as big as your
>hand.
>
>>Even still, 215s are a pretty wide tyre, even on 7" rims.
>
>Have to agree on that one.
>
>Just my thoughts - comments welcome.
>
I would not say that 215's are pretty wide on 7 inch wheels. The widest wheel
recommended for 215's is 7.5 inches.
Dennis
Ian Donaldson
In article <54p63g$k...@manuel.anu.edu.au>,
smi...@mso.anu.edu.au (Jon Smillie) writes:
> 215's on a 6 inch rim are a pretty standard setup on Fords and Holdens
> these days.
>
> I ran 225's on my Ford's 6inch rims for three years with no ill effects.
> Did heaps of highway driving. It handled fine, no blowouts, and the tyres
> wore evenly right down to the treadwear indicators. And these were cheap
> Hankook tyres also.
Hmmmm, at least according to one magazine's test (was it _Motor_?), Hankooks
are a pretty good tyres, despite the cheap pricing. As I recall, they
did pretty well in performance, and came out number 1 for wear (lack of),
and number 3 overall.
Ian
Jon Smillie
215's on a 6 inch rim are a pretty standard setup on Fords and Holdens
these days.
I ran 225's on my Ford's 6inch rims for three years with no ill effects.
Did heaps of highway driving. It handled fine, no blowouts, and the tyres
wore evenly right down to the treadwear indicators. And these were cheap
Hankook tyres also.
Just my experiences...
Jon
Peter Gray
> Even still, 215s are a pretty wide tyre, even on 7" rims.
certainly don't look too narrow for the rim.
BTW how do I get around the problem of not being able to post when I
have more included text than new text?
Jon Smillie
In article <54pk6u$i...@mulga.cs.mu.OZ.AU>, i...@ecr.mu.oz.au (Ian Donaldson) writes:
|>
|> Hmmmm, at least according to one magazine's test (was it _Motor_?), Hankooks
|> are a pretty good tyres, despite the cheap pricing. As I recall, they
|> did pretty well in performance, and came out number 1 for wear (lack of),
|> and number 3 overall.
|>
I can vouch for that - cost about $90 each for 225/65x14 ( about 4 and a bit years
ago ) lasted over three years ( at least 60,000km ) and I couldn't find
any problems with their handling ( on my old Fairmont anyway ). Only
downsides were 1. they were a little noisy and 2. they tramlined a bit
( but 225's are fairly wide, and they were mounted on 6" rims )
Jon
Matthew McDonald
Peter Gray <syne...@actonline.com.au> wrote:
Another person with a screwy news server.. I cut down on spaces etc in
old text, plus ad a few more spaces at the end etc.. It's a real pain
in the butt, as sometimes you need to only ad a few lines and if you
delete the old text no-one knows what's going on :(
Regards
Matthew
|\ /|
--------------- \ / ---------------
Matthew McDonald \ / Email:
Tasmania Australia \ www.sv.net.au/~matthew / mat...@sv.net.au
+61 41 Matthew / GSM and Piazza Info \ Files etc:
+61 416 288 439 / \ matt...@netspace.net.au
_______________ / \ _______________
|/ \|
The man who can smile when things go wrong has thought of someone he can blame it on - Arthur Bloch
Marty Nash
> >Going for a fatter tyre for a given rim
> >in order to have a softer ride is pretty dumb - just go for a smoother/softer
> >tyre if that's what you want.
I did not choose this, this is the size of rims and tyres that came with
the car.
I wanted to see if I could improve the handling of my car by changing
the width of the rims.
> >I don't think the only advantage is with performance cars. I think going for
> >the correct wheel width for the given rim width is necessary for ALL cars.
> >Thing is, most people who upgrade to wider tyres enjoy driving their cars,
> and
> >so are going to push it a little harder than normal. It's especially
> important
> >to get your wheels and tyres correct in this case. The only thing holding you
> >onto the road is your four tyres, each with a footprint about as big as your
> >hand.
Thanks for the info, this is what I was asking about.