Audi Q7 fuel pump failure....

[XR8 Sprintless]

Place next door to where I work is a diesel injection repair specialist
and they rebuild fuel pumps etc.

Had a 2008 Audi dropped in today on a truck as it wouldn't go. Saw it
being loaded back on a tow truck late this afternoon and asked the
mechanic what the story was. Apparently the fuel pump shattered sending
fine shards of metal through the fuel lines to the injectors. The
estimated cost of repair will not see much change out of $10000. The
owner is now looking for a reasonable engine from a wrecker. It's a 3.0l
tdi with 160000km on the clock.

[D Walford]

That's the trouble with late model diesels, they are pretty reliable but
when they do fuck up they are very expensive to repair.
I was quoted $3700 to replace the Hilux injectors, it was idling a bit
rough and that's what they quoted to fix it, so far after a year it
hasn't gotten any worse so I'm not going to get them replaced unless it
gets a lot worse.
With a bit of research I found a place that will do it for half the
price quoted by Toyota.

--
Daryl

[Noddy]

On 23/03/16 9:06 PM, XR8 Sprintless wrote:

> Had a 2008 Audi dropped in today on a truck as it wouldn't go. Saw it
> being loaded back on a tow truck late this afternoon and asked the
> mechanic what the story was. Apparently the fuel pump shattered sending
> fine shards of metal through the fuel lines to the injectors. The
> estimated cost of repair will not see much change out of $10000. The
> owner is now looking for a reasonable engine from a wrecker. It's a 3.0l
> tdi with 160000km on the clock.

Another reason to be wary of European cars :)



--
--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[XR8 Sprintless]

Yep they are bloody expensive to repair. If I still had the diesel I
think I would be okay though as I have sorted out his injector tester
for him including adding in extra boards so he can now test all kinds of
injectors. He bought the thing from China and the manual was in Chinese
and the bloody thing didn't work from day one. Took a bit of sorting out
but as he is the landlord of the building we are in, I took it on as a
project and got it working for him. When he discovered the $30 large he
had spent didn't include the kit to test certain injectors he was pretty
pissed but a few grand more and some installation and wiring and it's
the bees knees. Mind you to buy a machine locally would have set him
back closer to $80 large...

Can only say that Google translate on the phone is bloody helpful when
trying to work out what an error message in chinese is, even though you
have set the language in English!

He's just about full time rebuilding pumps and testing injectors. Having
a machine to do the job and print out a report makes it a shit load
easier for him.

[Clocky]

Anything with common rail injection actually. They're great and all, but
when they fail, particularly when the pump goes south, it's a very
costly exercise regardless of manufacturer.

[Noddy]

On 24/03/16 12:52 PM, Clocky wrote:

>> Another reason to be wary of European cars :)
>
>
> Anything with common rail injection actually. They're great and all, but
> when they fail, particularly when the pump goes south, it's a very
> costly exercise regardless of manufacturer.

You say "when" as if it's a foregone conclusion. I'd also wager that
it'd be considerably cheaper to repair something from Asia that it would
something from Europe.

Particularly Germany.

[John McKenzie]

On 24/03/2016 3:46 PM, Noddy wrote:

> You say "when" as if it's a foregone conclusion. I'd also wager that
> it'd be considerably cheaper to repair something from Asia that it would
> something from Europe.
>
> Particularly Germany.

I agree, it'll be near impossible to repair Germany after letting in 1
million gang rapists (j/k, though only partly)


--
John McKenzie

[D Walford]

On 24/03/2016 7:04 PM, Blue Peeler wrote:

> Yeah but I call bullshit on this one.
>
> The engine in question, if my research is correct, has an ultra high
> pressure ccommon rail and the injectors are of the piezio, micro/multi
> orifice type. Any metal fragments large enough to do any damage to the
> engine would have simply blocked the injectors.
>
I was quoted $3700 just to replace my Hilux injectors so that much plus
whatever the pumps costs, plus maybe new fuel lines and a filter, $10k
might be too much but it could be getting up near there.
Injectors might be cleanable which would save quite a bit and it might
also be possible to clean the fuel lines, either way I don't think its
going to be a cheap repair.
I'm thinking that if my Hilux TD engine fully shits itself an LS2 V8
might just fit:-)
Buying a complete SH V8 and a fitting kit might be cheaper than fixing
the diesel.

--
Daryl

[XR8 Sprintless]

On 24/03/2016 8:04 PM, D Walford wrote:

> I was quoted $3700 just to replace my Hilux injectors so that much plus
> whatever the pumps costs, plus maybe new fuel lines and a filter, $10k
> might be too much but it could be getting up near there.
> Injectors might be cleanable which would save quite a bit and it might
> also be possible to clean the fuel lines, either way I don't think its
> going to be a cheap repair.
> I'm thinking that if my Hilux TD engine fully shits itself an LS2 V8
> might just fit:-)
> Buying a complete SH V8 and a fitting kit might be cheaper than fixing
> the diesel.
>

The fuel pump is around $2000. new Injectors around $3500. Cleaning out
the fuel tank and lines and new fuel filter, plus all the other work
needing doing to dismantle everything and it's not going to be cheap.

[Clocky]

On 24/03/2016 4:04 PM, Blue Peeler wrote:
> Clocky wrote:
>

> Yeah but I call bullshit on this one.
>
> The engine in question, if my research is correct, has an ultra high
> pressure ccommon rail and the injectors are of the piezio, micro/multi
> orifice type. Any metal fragments large enough to do any damage to the
> engine would have simply blocked the injectors.
>

Common rail injectors and pumps are expensive and I think the owner is
probably looking to buy the whole engine in the hope that a going engine
will be cheaper then replacing and/or overhauling the pump and injectors
whatever else as required plus there would probably be a significant
saving on the labor component as well.

It's not that the engine is knackered perse, but it's a cheaper way out
of his dilemma.

[Clocky]

Country of origin means diddly-squat.

[Clocky]

They've 'solved' these sort of problems before.

[D Walford]

On 24/03/2016 9:34 PM, Blue Peeler wrote:

> D Walford wrote:
>
>>>
>> I was quoted $3700 just to replace my Hilux injectors so that much
>> plus whatever the pumps costs, plus maybe new fuel lines and a
>> filter, $10k might be too much but it could be getting up near there.
>

> Darryl
>
> I know this is of no relevance whatsoever to the Audi, but Jeezuz the
> price you quote for yout toyota seems high.

That's what I thought, price was from the local Toyota dealer, I did
find a place not far from here that fits reco injectors for less than
half that.
>
>
> May I ask what engine it has?

1KD-FTV, not 100% sure if that's the correct engine designation, badge
on ute says D-4D, its a 3.0lt in a 2009 Hilux.
>
> The reason I ask is that a couple of years back, right after the intro
> of low suplhur fuel, the pump on my 2L-TE started leaking.
>
> Initial enquiries in Cairns seemed a bit expensive so I looked
> elsewhere.
>
> 4 brand new genuine injectors out of Saudi were less than $AU300 plus
> post. i could have bought just new nozzles for under $100, but of
> course I do not have the gear to set them up.

I found a set of 4 on ebay for $1550.00
>
> A local firm quoted me $1800 to rebuild the pump which compared poorly
> to $NZ440 for a brand new one, in Cairns in 24 hours out of
> Christchurch bye the way.

That's a big difference in price.
>
>
> Now anything for the 2L engine is likely to be cheaper than the later
> stuff, after all the 2L was the back-up on the Ark - but a Nippondenso
> Electronic pump is a Nippondenso electronic pump so it does occur to me
> then and now that there are some truly epic rip-offs in diesel parts.
>
>
> If you have a 1KZ or derivative I would expect the parts to be more
> expensive but they are available on fleabay brand new in the $400 to
> $450 range.
>
>
> The new rotary pumps piss me off because there are only 2 options for a
> "home mechanic" - pay someone to rebuild, or buy a new one. Back in the
> day of the old Toyota inline pumps I have rebuilt them myself on the
> kitchen table.
>
>

True but they are a very different animal operating at much higher
pressures.
Never heard of late model Hiluxes with pump problems but injector
problems are common enough.


--
Daryl

[Noddy]

On 25/03/16 1:34 AM, Clocky wrote:

> Common rail injectors and pumps are expensive and I think the owner is
> probably looking to buy the whole engine in the hope that a going engine
> will be cheaper then replacing and/or overhauling the pump and injectors
> whatever else as required plus there would probably be a significant
> saving on the labor component as well.
>
> It's not that the engine is knackered perse, but it's a cheaper way out
> of his dilemma.

Cheaper than the ridiculous price he's been quoted, anyway....

[Noddy]

On 25/03/16 2:11 AM, Clocky wrote:

>> You say "when" as if it's a foregone conclusion. I'd also wager that
>> it'd be considerably cheaper to repair something from Asia that it would
>> something from Europe.
>>
>> Particularly Germany.
>
> Country of origin means diddly-squat.

And if you genuinely believe that, then I have a bridge or 5 to sell you.

[Clocky]

So how much less then the 'ridiculous' price could you repair the whole
fuel system for?

[Clocky]

On 25/03/2016 8:09 AM, Noddy wrote:

Go and check the prices, it's not hard.

You'll see that there is quite a variance between them and country of
origin means nothing compared to the difference between models.

[Noddy]

On 25/03/16 12:53 PM, Clocky wrote:

> So how much less then the 'ridiculous' price could you repair the whole
> fuel system for?

Do you want me to give you an actual quote in which case you'll need to
provide me with some vehicle specifics, or are you just being a dickhead
and expect me to answer a question like that without notice?

Either way, I would advise you to have a read of Heeler's post in reply
to Daryl which highlights perfectly the *enormous* cost variations that
can be found in this area.

[John McKenzie]

They had to get an Austrian ring-in to orchestrate it though!

--
John McKenzie

[Clocky]

On 25/03/2016 11:24 AM, Noddy wrote:
> On 25/03/16 12:53 PM, Clocky wrote:
>
>> So how much less then the 'ridiculous' price could you repair the whole
>> fuel system for?
>
> Do you want me to give you an actual quote in which case you'll need to
> provide me with some vehicle specifics, or are you just being a dickhead
> and expect me to answer a question like that without notice?
>

You seem confident that the price is ridiculous.

> Either way, I would advise you to have a read of Heeler's post in reply
> to Daryl which highlights perfectly the *enormous* cost variations that
> can be found in this area.
>
>

Especially when you compare common rail vs anything else.

That doesn't change the fact that country of origin doesn't decide cost,
some of the Jap common rail stuff costs a small fortune to repair.

Toyota included.

[Noddy]

On 25/03/16 6:48 PM, Clocky wrote:

>> Do you want me to give you an actual quote in which case you'll need to
>> provide me with some vehicle specifics, or are you just being a dickhead
>> and expect me to answer a question like that without notice?
>>
> You seem confident that the price is ridiculous.

It certainly seems ridiculous, but you didn't answer the question. Did
you want a genuine quote or are you just being a dickhead?

>> Either way, I would advise you to have a read of Heeler's post in reply
>> to Daryl which highlights perfectly the *enormous* cost variations that
>> can be found in this area.
>
> Especially when you compare common rail vs anything else.
>
> That doesn't change the fact that country of origin doesn't decide cost,
> some of the Jap common rail stuff costs a small fortune to repair.
>
> Toyota included.

I don't think *any* of it is particularly cheap. However European
machinery is *not* generally known for it's price competitiveness.

[XR8 Sprintless]

On 25/03/2016 6:23 PM, Noddy wrote:
> On 25/03/16 6:48 PM, Clocky wrote:
>
>>> Do you want me to give you an actual quote in which case you'll need to
>>> provide me with some vehicle specifics, or are you just being a dickhead
>>> and expect me to answer a question like that without notice?
>>>
>> You seem confident that the price is ridiculous.
>
> It certainly seems ridiculous, but you didn't answer the question. Did
> you want a genuine quote or are you just being a dickhead?

Ok here's the go.

New Pump - Aftermarket at least $1600 +gst
Injectors - at least $500 each.
dismantling and cleaning out fuel lines, new fuel filter, common rails,
fuel tank and all associated pipes.

You guys work it out. The local car yard service crews are charging
between $120 and $160 an hour (thats Ford / Holden / Mazda) I have no
idea what the Audi dealer charges, but the guy was clearly told the bill
would top $10000 if he wanted it done there. I'm guessing they were
going to replace all the parts, not clean them out.

His father-in-law is a mechanic and is stripping it down to clean out as
much as he can himself to save the son in law some money.

There will be quite a few hours involved.

[Clocky]

On 25/03/2016 10:12 PM, XR8 Sprintless wrote:
> On 25/03/2016 6:23 PM, Noddy wrote:
>> On 25/03/16 6:48 PM, Clocky wrote:
>>
>>>> Do you want me to give you an actual quote in which case you'll need to
>>>> provide me with some vehicle specifics, or are you just being a
>>>> dickhead
>>>> and expect me to answer a question like that without notice?
>>>>
>>> You seem confident that the price is ridiculous.
>>
>> It certainly seems ridiculous, but you didn't answer the question. Did
>> you want a genuine quote or are you just being a dickhead?
>
> Ok here's the go.
>
> New Pump - Aftermarket at least $1600 +gst
> Injectors - at least $500 each.

Which is pretty consistent with any other common rail diesels, give or
take. The price of the pump seems quite reasonable but the injectors
make up for it.

> dismantling and cleaning out fuel lines, new fuel filter, common rails,
> fuel tank and all associated pipes.
>
> You guys work it out. The local car yard service crews are charging
> between $120 and $160 an hour (thats Ford / Holden / Mazda) I have no
> idea what the Audi dealer charges, but the guy was clearly told the bill
> would top $10000 if he wanted it done there. I'm guessing they were
> going to replace all the parts, not clean them out.
>

Some parts should probably be replaced like the injector pipes and if
it's done at an Audi dealer they will if that is the manufacturer's
recommendation. You don't want to risk a leak at the rail pressures they
run at or any possible contamination left in the pipe and in the context
of the whole job they are not that expensive.

There are also cheaper knock-off "genuine" pumps from China to be aware
of if you the plan is to source the parts on ebay or similar. Pays to be
aware.

> His father-in-law is a mechanic and is stripping it down to clean out as
> much as he can himself to save the son in law some money.
>
> There will be quite a few hours involved.

Indeed there will be. The labour component would be quite significant.

Always worth getting a second quote though.

[DBR]

May pay to add a 2nd fuel filter to the list. A lot of the common rail
systems are not filtered as well as is needed. It has a lot to do with
the toyota injector problems for a start. I have added a wix filter/
water trap to my 08 rodeo , Cost it about $90 as a kit and around $60
every 20 thousand Ks to change the filter. Cheaper than an injector.

[Noddy]

On 26/03/16 1:58 AM, Clocky wrote:

>> New Pump - Aftermarket at least $1600 +gst
>> Injectors - at least $500 each.
>
> Which is pretty consistent with any other common rail diesels, give or
> take. The price of the pump seems quite reasonable but the injectors
> make up for it.

Still think the 10 thousand buck price seems reasonable now, do you?

[Clocky]

Very much so. Filtration is paramount and on the Toyota's it has proven
itself inadequate given the problems seen. The common rail filter kits
I've fitted have been easy to fit and in the greater scheme of things
not expensive.

I have added a wix filter/
> water trap to my 08 rodeo , Cost it about $90 as a kit and around $60
> every 20 thousand Ks to change the filter. Cheaper than an injector.

Absolutely. I've fitted a few Fuel Manager common rail kits and they are
around the $200-$300 mark from memory. Still cheaper then a single injector.

[Clocky]

It's *typical* and country of origin has nothing to do with it which is
my point.

I don't think you fully appreciate what it means to a common rail system
when the pump disintegrates.

You do realise that the common rail injectors failures on the Audi can
damage the pistons and engine right?

How is that $10,000 quote look to you now?

[D Walford]

I haven't done any work on late model diesels but I have a had a good
look at mine and it doesn't really look all that difficult.
Even less so for someone who is experienced with them.
It shouldn't take more than 4hours to replace all the parts, pump
injectors, fuel lines and filter, it would take a lot longer if you try
to clean and reuse parts, it may even be possible to save the injectors.
Its possible the injectors may have filter screens that could of trapped
the worst of the rubbish, the only problem is that only diesel
specialists are likely to have the equipment to test them.
If you decide to clean out the fuel tank that might take another couple
of hours so I can't see it being more than 8hrs work total which adds up
to $1200 @ $150 per hour.

>
> Always worth getting a second quote though.
>
>
>

Always.



--
Daryl

[Noddy]

On 26/03/16 11:35 AM, Clocky wrote:

>> Still think the 10 thousand buck price seems reasonable now, do you?
>
> It's *typical* and country of origin has nothing to do with it which is
> my point.

So you keep saying, and so I keep not believing you.

> I don't think you fully appreciate what it means to a common rail system
> when the pump disintegrates.

Think whatever you like :)

> You do realise that the common rail injectors failures on the Audi can
> damage the pistons and engine right?

No, I don't. There was no suggestion in the original post of any engine
damage whatsoever.

> How is that $10,000 quote look to you now?

About as mythical as anything you've mentioned thus far, but I can see
how you'd swallow it being the dealership pigeon that you are.

[Clocky]

Mate, seriously...

We are talking about common rail diesels and an disintegrated high
pressure pump here. It possible the pistons have been obliterated.

[D Walford]

Certainly possible but for that to happen there needs to be a stuck
injector which pumped enough raw fuel into the cylinder to cause a
hydraulic lock, a compression test should be enough to find out if there
is any internal damage.
A CT would be the first thing I would do once I removed the injectors,
if the test showed no problems then I would continue, if there was a
problem with the test then the SH engine idea is looking like the best
option.
I've seen a faulty injector cause a major engine failure, it was in the
mid 70's on a brand new grader that was being unloaded off a truck, huge
bang and bits of piston and engine block went everywhere.
It was a Leyland diesel which had a different type of injector to the
Perkins engines I mostly worked on, its the only major failure I've seen
or heard of caused by a stuck injector, no doubt there are plenty more
instances but they are certainly not a common occurrence.

--
Daryl

[Clocky]

Quite possible given the pressures they run, the fact the pump
disintegrated and that the injectors are so sensitive to any kind of
fuel contamination where even the smallest particles can cause injector
leakage... at ~3000 to 29000 psi that can spell serious trouble.

> A CT would be the first thing I would do once I removed the injectors,
> if the test showed no problems then I would continue, if there was a
> problem with the test then the SH engine idea is looking like the best
> option.

It requires a strip-down and quote to know for sure, hence the quote for
$10,000 because it seems they haven't done that.

A second hand engine is almost certainly the cheaper option compared to
a worse case scenario but there will still be a significant cost
associated with cleaning the fuel system labour wise.

> I've seen a faulty injector cause a major engine failure, it was in the
> mid 70's on a brand new grader that was being unloaded off a truck, huge
> bang and bits of piston and engine block went everywhere.
> It was a Leyland diesel which had a different type of injector to the
> Perkins engines I mostly worked on, its the only major failure I've seen
> or heard of caused by a stuck injector, no doubt there are plenty more
> instances but they are certainly not a common occurrence.
>

Common rail diesels are a different kettle of fish, they run high rail
pressures and are particularly sensitive to any fuel contamination.

[Clocky]

How is that quote coming along, Mr. Dunning-Kruger?

[Noddy]

On 31/03/16 9:12 AM, Clocky wrote:

>> About as mythical as anything you've mentioned thus far, but I can see
>> how you'd swallow it being the dealership pigeon that you are.
>>
>
> How is that quote coming along, Mr. Dunning-Kruger?

So you *want* it now? I asked you *twice* before and you said nothing,
and now apparently because you're not getting any attention you'd like
to get one? Cool. Give me some details please. Make, model and exactly
what you're after.

And be *specific*. I don't play games with day-dreaming fuckwits.