Transmission changing noise> 1st to 2nd

[Jason James]

Talking automatics, especially the Ford E-series 4 spd and any BW box.. Older Taxis used to make a "wheeeeUP" noise from 1 >>> 2nd changes. Is this normal ?

My ED makes a quieter, shorter version of this noise once its hot.
One day I asked a taxi owner about his EF making this noise, and he claimed it was normal. New Falcons didnt IME.

Jason

[Noddy]

On 30/12/14 9:20 AM, Jason James wrote:

> Talking automatics, especially the Ford E-series 4 spd and any BW
> box.. Older Taxis used to make a "wheeeeUP" noise from 1 >>> 2nd
> changes. Is this normal ?

Depending on the box it is, yes.

> My ED makes a quieter, shorter version of this noise once its hot.
> One day I asked a taxi owner about his EF making this noise, and he
> claimed it was normal. New Falcons didnt IME.

It's probably getting a little slack in the planetary, which is normal.



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Bob Milutinovic]

"Jason James" <h6tg...@outlook.com> wrote in message
news:bf371a05-6563-420d...@googlegroups.com...

My XC (back in the '80s) had those noises for a few weeks, before it became
very hesitant to shift from first to second.

Then on the day I was driving it in to trade in for a newer car, it decided
it simply didn't want to shift out of first. Not that it was any longer a
concern of mine, but it was a pain driving from the Eastern Suburbs to
Cabramatta in first.

--
Bob Milutinovic
Cognicom

[Jason James]

Especially in traffic with a bogan following behind :-) My V8 Val used to do the same thing if you failed to put it into neutral then back to Drive at the lights. Eventually I had the 727 box recoed, and stuff me if it still had the problem. The guy apologised and threw in a new valve-body [where the hydraulic "brain" is]. Apparently it was a sticking piston which diverted fluid from one port to another to actuate 2nd gear-shift.

One fellow at work, took on fixing his HR Powerslide trans. It'd stick in 1st [2 spd trans] More guts than I :-) His used to come good when it heated up. Replaced seals he said, refit and see if it worked. 3 times he had it out before it came good.

Jason

[Jason James]

On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 9:28:30 AM UTC+11, Noddy wrote:
> On 30/12/14 9:20 AM, Jason James wrote:
>
> > Talking automatics, especially the Ford E-series 4 spd and any BW
> > box.. Older Taxis used to make a "wheeeeUP" noise from 1 >>> 2nd
> > changes. Is this normal ?
>
> Depending on the box it is, yes.

To me it sounded like the load shifting from one gear-set to the next, was not happening fast enough hence the extended "wheeeee" noise followed by the change completing, giving the "Up" sound at the end. This was due to worn bands and clutches which due decreased friction-material, introduced the slow-change as clearances were increased between the mating surfaces. Adjustment had run out. Just a theory, which is wrong :-)

> > My ED makes a quieter, shorter version of this noise once its hot.
> > One day I asked a taxi owner about his EF making this noise, and he
> > claimed it was normal. New Falcons didnt IME.
>
> It's probably getting a little slack in the planetary, which is normal.

My old man loved autos after owning pomme manuals. He drove his HR for over 25 years. The times I drove it in the '70s, the 2 spds meant you could leave a lot of cars behind off the lights. Overtaking was another story :-)

Jason

[Noddy]

On 30/12/14 10:35 AM, Jason James wrote:

>
> To me it sounded like the load shifting from one gear-set to the
> next, was not happening fast enough hence the extended "wheeeee"
> noise followed by the change completing, giving the "Up" sound at the
> end. This was due to worn bands and clutches which due decreased
> friction-material, introduced the slow-change as clearances were
> increased between the mating surfaces. Adjustment had run out. Just a
> theory, which is wrong :-)

No, not at all. I may have misunderstood you.

Initially it sounded like you were describing the sound some autos make
in first gear as a part of their normal (or near normal) function, but
now it sounds like you're describing a trans that flares between gear
changes and that definitely is *not* normal at all.

If your car is doing it then it may need a fluid change. Falcon 4 speed
autos takes a particular fluid, and if the wrong type is used flaring
between shifts is common.

> My old man loved autos after owning pomme manuals. He drove his HR
> for over 25 years. The times I drove it in the '70s, the 2 spds meant
> you could leave a lot of cars behind off the lights. Overtaking was
> another story :-)

I had a HR Premier with a turbo'd 202 and powerglide and it would almost
run to 70mph in low gear :)



--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[D Walford]

My 307 HK would do that but it wasn't so good for the fuel economy:-)

--
Daryl

[Noddy]

On 30/12/14 7:01 PM, D Walford wrote:

> My 307 HK would do that but it wasn't so good for the fuel economy:-)

I'll bet :)




--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Xeno]

On 30/12/2014 10:35 AM, Jason James wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 9:28:30 AM UTC+11, Noddy wrote:
>> On 30/12/14 9:20 AM, Jason James wrote:
>>
>>> Talking automatics, especially the Ford E-series 4 spd and any BW
>>> box.. Older Taxis used to make a "wheeeeUP" noise from 1 >>> 2nd
>>> changes. Is this normal ?
>>
>> Depending on the box it is, yes.
>
> To me it sounded like the load shifting from one gear-set to the next,
> was not happening fast enough hence the extended "wheeeee" noise
> followed by the change completing, giving the "Up" sound at the end.
> This was due to worn bands and clutches which due decreased
> friction-material, introduced the slow-change as clearances were
> increased between the mating surfaces. Adjustment had run out.
> Just a theory, which is wrong :-)
>

The auto in your car is a BTR 4 speed. It is a compound planetary
gearset much like that in a BW35. If the planetary gearset is anything
like that in the BW35, don't expect it to have a very long life. They
have long and short pinions with helical cut gears. The helical cut
gears create an axial loading on the pinions. This has a tendency to
wear out the thrust washers on the long pinions with the result that the
pinions start wearing away the housing. The long pinions suffer the
worst as they are twice as long as the short pinions hence double the
loading. An expensive repair!

Here's an interesting treatise on rebuilding a BW35 with multiple pages.
http://tinyurl.com/pr2d5ge
About a third of the way down the page you will see just how bad these
can get. The BW35 in my wife's car was like that at 60 or 70 thousand
kilometres. As well, the reverse band was knackered because the car had
been used by the previous owner to tow a trailer and it involved
reversing up a steep driveway loaded. The servo seal popped out and got
a bit sliced due the adjustment being way out. Slow shifts into reverse
until eventually reverse was no longer available.

Back to your BTR 4 speed...

http://tinyurl.com/qzjjlvw

Go to page 4 for the power flow...

The C2 clutch is the equivalent of the front clutch in the BW35. It is
on in all forward gears so it isn't causing you grief. In drive 1, the
other two active components are the one way clutches, OWC1 and OWC2. In
manual first the rear band is also applied but I'm presuming you are
talking about Drive 1 rather than Lock 1. To move to 2nd gear, the front
band is applied as is the C4 clutch. OWC1 freewheels but OWC2 remains
locked. There are two timing possibilities then, B1 and C4.

It helps to have a better power flow diagram and a better chart of
active/passive devices. I have a full manual for the BTR on my PC but it
is 21 Meg PDF, a bit large to email. Note that the Ssangyong Musso had
the same or similar trans so you might find a manual for the BTR under
that Marque.

Anyway, one of the significant differences between the BW35 and the BTR
4 speed is that the 4th speed is an overdrive. In the BW35, the
planetary carrier assembly is locked in 3rd (top) gear. That means the
planetary elements, pinions etc. are not rotating. In the BTR 4 Spd the
same applies. I 3rd gear, the planetary carrier is locked the same as
the BW35. The DIFFERENCE is that 3rd on the BTR is not top gear. That
role is taken by 4th gear which is an overdrive gear.

What's the significance of this you might ask? Well, in the BW35, if you
spend most of your drive time in 3rd (top), you will see very little
wear on the planetary carrier elements and if you drive reasonably
gently, you will get an exceptionally long life from your trans.
Remember that light throttle acceleration will see early upshifts so you
will be in 3rd sooner.

The BTR, on the other hand will spend pretty well most of its life
attempting to wear out the planetary gearset. If your car has a towbar,
that will be even more loading on those poor planetaries.... That's
because its top gear is 4th where the planetaries are working all the
time.

>
>>> My ED makes a quieter, shorter version of this noise once its hot.

Hmmm, when the oil is thinner... hmmmm

>>> One day I asked a taxi owner about his EF making this noise, and he
>>> claimed it was normal.

A taxi is a very bad example to use as a benchmark for this.

> New Falcons didnt IME.

They shouldn't as there is no wear and apply/release timings would be
spot on. Remember that there are other factors that can cause incorrect
shift timings, prime among them being low pressures and servo leakage.

>>
>> It's probably getting a little slack in the planetary, which is normal.

Some get slacker sooner than others...

>
> My old man loved autos after owning pomme manuals.

Column shift Pommy manuals were a pain.

> He drove his HR for over 25 years.
> The times I drove it in the '70s, the 2 spds
> meant you could leave a lot of cars behind off the lights.
> Overtaking was another story :-)
>
> Jason
>

It was OK for the era. Most of your 4 cylinder modern cars would blow it
off the road nowadays. You don't realise just how bad they really were
until you drop back to one after being in something late model for a while.

--

Xeno.

[Jason James]

On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 9:07:01 PM UTC+11, Xeno wrote:
> On 30/12/2014 10:35 AM, Jason James wrote:


> The auto in your car is a BTR 4 speed. It is a compound planetary
> gearset much like that in a BW35. If the planetary gearset is anything
> like that in the BW35, don't expect it to have a very long life.

By compound, do you mean the metal used ?

They
> have long and short pinions with helical cut gears. The helical cut
> gears create an axial loading on the pinions. This has a tendency to
> wear out the thrust washers on the long pinions with the result that the
> pinions start wearing away the housing. The long pinions suffer the
> worst as they are twice as long as the short pinions hence double the
> loading. An expensive repair!

I get the theory, but wouldn't all boxes use helical gears ?

>
> Here's an interesting treatise on rebuilding a BW35 with multiple pages.
> http://tinyurl.com/pr2d5ge
> About a third of the way down the page you will see just how bad these
> can get. The BW35 in my wife's car was like that at 60 or 70 thousand
> kilometres. As well, the reverse band was knackered because the car had
> been used by the previous owner to tow a trailer and it involved
> reversing up a steep driveway loaded. The servo seal popped out and got
> a bit sliced due the adjustment being way out. Slow shifts into reverse
> until eventually reverse was no longer available.

Real handy :-)

>
> Back to your BTR 4 speed...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/qzjjlvw
>
> Go to page 4 for the power flow...
>
> The C2 clutch is the equivalent of the front clutch in the BW35. It is
> on in all forward gears so it isn't causing you grief. In drive 1, the
> other two active components are the one way clutches, OWC1 and OWC2. In
> manual first the rear band is also applied but I'm presuming you are
> talking about Drive 1 rather than Lock 1. To move to 2nd gear, the front
> band is applied as is the C4 clutch. OWC1 freewheels but OWC2 remains
> locked. There are two timing possibilities then, B1 and C4.
>
> It helps to have a better power flow diagram and a better chart of
> active/passive devices. I have a full manual for the BTR on my PC but it
> is 21 Meg PDF, a bit large to email. Note that the Ssangyong Musso had
> the same or similar trans so you might find a manual for the BTR under
> that Marque.

Thanx,..but trying to fix an auto internally, is not something I would take on,..ever !

>
> Anyway, one of the significant differences between the BW35 and the BTR
> 4 speed is that the 4th speed is an overdrive. In the BW35, the
> planetary carrier assembly is locked in 3rd (top) gear. That means the
> planetary elements, pinions etc. are not rotating. In the BTR 4 Spd the
> same applies. I 3rd gear, the planetary carrier is locked the same as
> the BW35. The DIFFERENCE is that 3rd on the BTR is not top gear. That
> role is taken by 4th gear which is an overdrive gear.
>
> What's the significance of this you might ask? Well, in the BW35, if you
> spend most of your drive time in 3rd (top), you will see very little
> wear on the planetary carrier elements and if you drive reasonably
> gently, you will get an exceptionally long life from your trans.
> Remember that light throttle acceleration will see early upshifts so you
> will be in 3rd sooner.

Indeed,..I select "performance" [switch] to get the box to stay longer in lower gears, otherwise you're always at 1500 rpm with little torque, so it kicks back, something I prefer not to happen all the time.

> The BTR, on the other hand will spend pretty well most of its life
> attempting to wear out the planetary gearset. If your car has a towbar,
> that will be even more loading on those poor planetaries.... That's
> because its top gear is 4th where the planetaries are working all the
> time.

OK,..I havent heard any gear-noise in 4th. The OD must mean there is at least one gear-set in use I guess tho.

> >>> My ED makes a quieter, shorter version of this noise once its hot.
>
> Hmmm, when the oil is thinner... hmmmm
>
> >>> One day I asked a taxi owner about his EF making this noise, and he
> >>> claimed it was normal.
>
> A taxi is a very bad example to use as a benchmark for this.

I should have asked him how many Ks he can get outa one.

>
> > New Falcons didnt IME.
>
> They shouldn't as there is no wear and apply/release timings would be
> spot on. Remember that there are other factors that can cause incorrect
> shift timings, prime among them being low pressures and servo leakage.
> >>
> >> It's probably getting a little slack in the planetary, which is normal.
>
> Some get slacker sooner than others...
> >
> > My old man loved autos after owning pomme manuals.
>
> Column shift Pommy manuals were a pain.
>
> > He drove his HR for over 25 years.
> > The times I drove it in the '70s, the 2 spds
> > meant you could leave a lot of cars behind off the lights.
> > Overtaking was another story :-)
> >
> > Jason
> >
> It was OK for the era. Most of your 4 cylinder modern cars would blow it
> off the road nowadays. You don't realise just how bad they really were
> until you drop back to one after being in something late model for a while.

For sure. The NSW Police traffic branch were whinging about increased speeding fines this year,...but what can you expect when manufacturers are selling cars with 2,3 or more times the power of 30 years ago ?

Ta for the info and links. I find transmissioins a bit too esoteric for me! :-) I pay the money, if repairs needed, but in all the autos I had, only the BW35 seemed to fail or should I say slip. The Hemis would over-torque 2nd usually, giving "that" sound.

Jason

[Noddy]

On 31/12/14 8:33 AM, Jason James wrote:

> By compound, do you mean the metal used ?

He doesn't know what he means as he read it straight from Google :)

The gearset in the Ford 4 speed is no different from that of most other
autos.

> I get the theory, but wouldn't all boxes use helical gears ?

Most of them. As do most manuals use helical cut gears as well, and they
do so for noise reduction. Straight cut gears are as noisy as fuck, and
they've been using helically cut gears in autos since the days of the
Powerglide and before.

Doing so doesn't cause any intrinsic problems, despite what our resident
Dr. Google may suggest :)

> Real handy :-)

Yeah, real handy if you have a bw35, which incidentally would run half a
million km's in taxi service without too many issues. They're not a
particularly problematic transmission, but if you look hard enough
you'll find people having dramas with them.

Just like you will if you look for *anything*.

> Thanx,..but trying to fix an auto internally, is not something I
> would take on,..ever !

Not without the necessary tools at least.

> Indeed,..I select "performance" [switch] to get the box to stay
> longer in lower gears, otherwise you're always at 1500 rpm with
> little torque, so it kicks back, something I prefer not to happen all
> the time.

Then you're doing it the wrong way. With the switch in "Performance"
mode, it actually kicks back more often.

> OK,..I havent heard any gear-noise in 4th. The OD must mean there is
> at least one gear-set in use I guess tho.

Don't get confused by the bullshit this idiot is spinning. The planetary
gearset in any automatic transmission is always in constant operation in
*any* gear, and the transmission can't function if it isn't. The only
variation is whether the sun gear or the ring gear is moving or
stationary, but the planet gears spin all the time.

Here's a brief animation of a planetary gearset in action:

> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECljAo1q1RQ

I'm not trying to lob you into the middle of a personality clash here
Jason, but Krypsis is a fucking idiot who has no idea what he's talking
about. The planetary gearset in your auto operates whenever the vehicle
is moving, *just* like it does in any other auto.

There is nothing peculiar about yours that makes it problematic.

> I should have asked him how many Ks he can get outa one.

I've known taxi fleet operators for years, and 500k km's out of a
transmission isn't unheard of. The important point to bear in mind here
is that taxis always return high mileage on their mechanical components
because they're always at normal operating temperature.

Warm up is where all the mechanical wear occurs. Once normal operating
temperature is reached wear rates are negligible.


--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Xeno]

On 31/12/2014 9:38 AM, Noddy wrote:
> On 31/12/14 8:33 AM, Jason James wrote:
>
>> By compound, do you mean the metal used ?
>
> He doesn't know what he means as he read it straight from Google :)
>
> The gearset in the Ford 4 speed is no different from that of most other
> autos.
>

There are 6 different types of planetary gearsets used in autos...
These are;

Common Sun
Common Mainshaft
Tandem carrier
Two Speed Compound
Three Speed Compound
Bevel Gear Principle

So much for the gearset in the Ford being no different from that of most

other autos.
>
>> I get the theory, but wouldn't all boxes use helical gears ?

Yes....

>
> Most of them. As do most manuals use helical cut gears as well, and they
> do so for noise reduction. Straight cut gears are as noisy as fuck, and
> they've been using helically cut gears in autos since the days of the
> Powerglide and before.

And all of them cause axial thrust issues requiring some sort of thrust
bearing to take that loading. Auto trans are full of such devices, both
plain and needle roller types.

>
> Doing so doesn't cause any intrinsic problems,

Well, in actual fact, they do. You see, if you have a helical gear
driven camshaft in an engine, that creates an end thrust loading on the
camshaft AND the crankshaft. So, unless you have a chain or belt driven
camshaft, your crankshaft is always going to have an axial thrust
loading placed on it regardless of the clutch being depressed or not.

> despite what our resident Dr. Google may suggest :)

You use Dr. Google. I prefer to use my paper based texts. The ones I
currently have before me are;

Automatic Transmissions Simplified, 3rd Edition, Cedric Tate, 1982.
Automatic Transmissions, 2nd Edition, Mathias F Breschia, 1982

Both are a tad old now and don't cover the BTR 4 speed. The first text
however contains a very detail explanation of the workings of a BW35 -
mechanical and hydraulic.

>
>> Real handy :-)
>
> Yeah, real handy if you have a bw35, which incidentally would run half a
> million km's in taxi service without too many issues. They're not a
> particularly problematic transmission, but if you look hard enough
> you'll find people having dramas with them.
>
> Just like you will if you look for *anything*.
>
>> Thanx,..but trying to fix an auto internally, is not something I
>> would take on,..ever !
>
> Not without the necessary tools at least.

That much I am in agreement with you on... BW35 clutch packs are a very
good example of where you need the special tools to avoid damaging the
servo seal. For the rest of the BW35 however, very little in the way of
special tools is needed that you couldn't easily fabricate yourself.

>
>> Indeed,..I select "performance" [switch] to get the box to stay
>> longer in lower gears, otherwise you're always at 1500 rpm with
>> little torque, so it kicks back, something I prefer not to happen all
>> the time.
>
> Then you're doing it the wrong way. With the switch in "Performance"
> mode, it actually kicks back more often.
>
>> OK,..I havent heard any gear-noise in 4th. The OD must mean there is
>> at least one gear-set in use I guess tho.
>
> Don't get confused by the bullshit this idiot is spinning. The planetary
> gearset in any automatic transmission is always in constant operation in
> *any* gear, and the transmission can't function if it isn't. The only
> variation is whether the sun gear or the ring gear is moving or
> stationary, but the planet gears spin all the time.

Let me write out a section of my text with respect to planetary
operation entitled "Direct Drive".

In all of the examples so far described, one member has been held
stationary, the engine driving a second member and the output is taken
from a third member.
A planetary gearset can be used to function as a connection for direct
mechanical drive. This will occur when any two members are locked together.

There is a further description which relates to a diagram in the book
suffice to say that a clutch is being used to lock the sun gear (driving
member) with the planet carrier. Since the planet carrier is now locked
to the sun, there can be NO rotation of the pinions and the ring gear
will be driven at the same speed as the input shaft.

The opposite of this is when any two members are free from locking or
holding and a neutral condition will result.

>
> Here's a brief animation of a planetary gearset in action:
>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECljAo1q1RQ

Yes, a nice animation but we are NOT talking about a simple planetary
gearset here. We are talking about a "Ravigneaux Compound Planetary
Gearset" which is a whole different animal.

>
> I'm not trying to lob you into the middle of a personality clash here
> Jason,

Right, but feeding Jason absolute bullshit on your part is rather
disengenuous then...

> but Krypsis is a fucking idiot who has no idea what he's talking
> about.

Krypsis may not but I certainly have a very good idea of what I am
talking about. It is you who hasn't a clue about planetary gearsets
beyond a very simple understanding based on the animation you posted.

> The planetary gearset in your auto operates whenever the vehicle
> is moving, *just* like it does in any other auto.

Bzzzt Wrong, absolutely wrong. See above...

better still, for you Google addicts,

http://tinyurl.com/nuvjeju

or if you want to be really really daring

http://tinyurl.com/nd5yzy9

and this one at the 45 second mark

http://tinyurl.com/kbfymcl

>
> There is nothing peculiar about yours that makes it problematic.
>
>> I should have asked him how many Ks he can get outa one.
>
> I've known taxi fleet operators for years, and 500k km's out of a
> transmission isn't unheard of. The important point to bear in mind here
> is that taxis always return high mileage on their mechanical components
> because they're always at normal operating temperature.

You know a lot of things but it's quite obvious that planetary gearsets
is not featured very highly among them.

>
> Warm up is where all the mechanical wear occurs. Once normal operating
> temperature is reached wear rates are negligible.
>

That applies far more to engines than it does to trans.
The factors that increase wear on trans are lubrication failure and
heavy loadings. In the case of autos, trans oil temperature is critical
since trans oil breaks down and loses its lubrication properties if it
gets overheated. Of course, there is always the impact loadings that
hoons give to driveline components. ;-)





--

Xeno.

[Xeno]

On 31/12/2014 8:33 AM, Jason James wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 9:07:01 PM UTC+11, Xeno wrote:
>> On 30/12/2014 10:35 AM, Jason James wrote:
>
>
>> The auto in your car is a BTR 4 speed. It is a compound planetary
>> gearset much like that in a BW35. If the planetary gearset is anything
>> like that in the BW35, don't expect it to have a very long life.
>
> By compound, do you mean the metal used ?
>

No, I meant a compound planetary gearset....

http://tinyurl.com/neywvje

The above is the type used in your BTR 4 speed box.

> They
>> have long and short pinions with helical cut gears. The helical cut
>> gears create an axial loading on the pinions. This has a tendency to
>> wear out the thrust washers on the long pinions with the result that the
>> pinions start wearing away the housing. The long pinions suffer the
>> worst as they are twice as long as the short pinions hence double the
>> loading. An expensive repair!
>
> I get the theory, but wouldn't all boxes use helical gears ?
>

Yes... for noise. Straight cut bevel gears are bloody noisy. If you've
ever heard a performance car with straight cut gears you will know the
difference.

>
>>
>> Here's an interesting treatise on rebuilding a BW35 with multiple pages.
>> http://tinyurl.com/pr2d5ge
>> About a third of the way down the page you will see just how bad these
>> can get. The BW35 in my wife's car was like that at 60 or 70 thousand
>> kilometres. As well, the reverse band was knackered because the car had
>> been used by the previous owner to tow a trailer and it involved
>> reversing up a steep driveway loaded. The servo seal popped out and got
>> a bit sliced due the adjustment being way out. Slow shifts into reverse
>> until eventually reverse was no longer available.
>
> Real handy :-)
>

It wasn't... It cost me about $120 for the complete trans rebuild at the
time. That included an exchange torque converter. As luck would have it
the son of the owner of fluidrive was in class that week and he got me
all the parts we didn't have on hand, including the torque converter, at
a VERY cheap rate. The planetary carrier wasn't included as we had a
very good spare one laying around.

>
>>
>> Back to your BTR 4 speed...
>>
>> http://tinyurl.com/qzjjlvw
>>
>> Go to page 4 for the power flow...
>>
>> The C2 clutch is the equivalent of the front clutch in the BW35. It is
>> on in all forward gears so it isn't causing you grief. In drive 1, the
>> other two active components are the one way clutches, OWC1 and OWC2. In
>> manual first the rear band is also applied but I'm presuming you are
>> talking about Drive 1 rather than Lock 1. To move to 2nd gear, the front
>> band is applied as is the C4 clutch. OWC1 freewheels but OWC2 remains
>> locked. There are two timing possibilities then, B1 and C4.
>>
>> It helps to have a better power flow diagram and a better chart of
>> active/passive devices. I have a full manual for the BTR on my PC but it
>> is 21 Meg PDF, a bit large to email. Note that the Ssangyong Musso had
>> the same or similar trans so you might find a manual for the BTR under
>> that Marque.
>
> Thanx,..but trying to fix an auto internally, is not something I would take on,..ever !
>

I wasn't expecting you to. It does help if you have a clue on what is
going on behind the scenes so you have a better understanding of why
certain things stuff up and other things don't.

>
>>
>> Anyway, one of the significant differences between the BW35 and the BTR
>> 4 speed is that the 4th speed is an overdrive. In the BW35, the
>> planetary carrier assembly is locked in 3rd (top) gear. That means the
>> planetary elements, pinions etc. are not rotating. In the BTR 4 Spd the
>> same applies. I 3rd gear, the planetary carrier is locked the same as
>> the BW35. The DIFFERENCE is that 3rd on the BTR is not top gear. That
>> role is taken by 4th gear which is an overdrive gear.
>>
>> What's the significance of this you might ask? Well, in the BW35, if you
>> spend most of your drive time in 3rd (top), you will see very little
>> wear on the planetary carrier elements and if you drive reasonably
>> gently, you will get an exceptionally long life from your trans.
>> Remember that light throttle acceleration will see early upshifts so you
>> will be in 3rd sooner.
>
> Indeed,..I select "performance" [switch] to get the box to stay longer in lower gears, otherwise you're always at 1500 rpm with little torque, so it kicks back, something I prefer not to happen all the time.
>

I'm lazy these days. I leave that sort of thing on economy mode. Not
that my current car even has such a thing.

>
>
>> The BTR, on the other hand will spend pretty well most of its life
>> attempting to wear out the planetary gearset. If your car has a towbar,
>> that will be even more loading on those poor planetaries.... That's
>> because its top gear is 4th where the planetaries are working all the
>> time.
>
> OK,..I havent heard any gear-noise in 4th. The OD must mean there is at least one gear-set in use I guess tho.
>

two kinds of OD in autos... one is the gear train in overdrive ratio
(higher than direct) and the other is a lock up torque converter that
will give you a "simulation" of overdrive. It does this by locking the
driving and driven elements of the torque converter together. This cuts
down a lot of hydraulic friction which saves power and improves fuel
economy. It also drops engine revs slightly as torque converters always
have a slip factor of up to ~5%.

http://tinyurl.com/lwvd3u4

>
>>>>> My ED makes a quieter, shorter version of this noise once its hot.
>>
>> Hmmm, when the oil is thinner... hmmmm
>>
>>>>> One day I asked a taxi owner about his EF making this noise, and he
>>>>> claimed it was normal.
>>
>> A taxi is a very bad example to use as a benchmark for this.
>
> I should have asked him how many Ks he can get outa one.

So would I as a lot of fleet owners were having trouble getting much
more than 100k out of them. There was a "recall" on them due to a
bearing failure. They were covered by BTR/Ford for this up to 100k where
they would replace the trans. That would be a skew factor on BTR trans
reliability statistics I would think.

>
>
>>
>>> New Falcons didnt IME.
>>
>> They shouldn't as there is no wear and apply/release timings would be
>> spot on. Remember that there are other factors that can cause incorrect
>> shift timings, prime among them being low pressures and servo leakage.
>>>>

>>>> It's probably getting a little slack in the planetary, which is normal..

>>
>> Some get slacker sooner than others...
>>>
>>> My old man loved autos after owning pomme manuals.
>>
>> Column shift Pommy manuals were a pain.
>>
>>> He drove his HR for over 25 years.
>>> The times I drove it in the '70s, the 2 spds
>> > meant you could leave a lot of cars behind off the lights.
>> > Overtaking was another story :-)
>>>
>>> Jason
>>>
>> It was OK for the era. Most of your 4 cylinder modern cars would blow it
>> off the road nowadays. You don't realise just how bad they really were
>> until you drop back to one after being in something late model for a while.
>
> For sure. The NSW Police traffic branch were whinging about increased speeding fines this year,...but what can you expect when manufacturers are selling cars with 2,3 or more times the power of 30 years ago ?
>
> Ta for the info and links. I find transmissioins a bit too esoteric for me! :-) I pay the money, if repairs needed, but in all the autos I had, only the BW35 seemed to fail or should I say slip. The Hemis would over-torque 2nd usually, giving "that" sound.
>
> Jason
>

--

Xeno.

[Jason James]

On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 9:34:10 AM UTC+11, Noddy wrote:
> On 31/12/14 8:33 AM, Jason James wrote:
>
> > By compound, do you mean the metal used ?
>
> He doesn't know what he means as he read it straight from Google :)
>
> The gearset in the Ford 4 speed is no different from that of most other
> autos.

I've wondered how they get the OD. Is it a peripheral gear on its own, meaning not used in 1,2 & 3 ?

> > I get the theory, but wouldn't all boxes use helical gears ?
>
> Most of them. As do most manuals use helical cut gears as well, and they
> do so for noise reduction. Straight cut gears are as noisy as fuck, and
> they've been using helically cut gears in autos since the days of the
> Powerglide and before.

Dad's HR used to sing like blazes in neutral :-)

> Doing so doesn't cause any intrinsic problems, despite what our resident
> Dr. Google may suggest :)
>
> > Real handy :-)
>
> Yeah, real handy if you have a bw35, which incidentally would run half a
> million km's in taxi service without too many issues. They're not a
> particularly problematic transmission, but if you look hard enough
> you'll find people having dramas with them.
>
> Just like you will if you look for *anything*.

Yeah,.the first Val was a 318 with the 727 trans that the yanks used in their hipo Challenger and Charger. It had a buggered valve-body causing it to stay in 1st. Slipping it into N then back to D would clear it. One day the selectors were loose in the T-bar console. I slipped it into N as I rolled to a red-light and the fucking thing went into Reverse ! Must have been doing about 10 kph. The rears locked up with a squeal. I thought "I'm fucked now",...but she was jake.

>
> > Thanx,..but trying to fix an auto internally, is not something I
> > would take on,..ever !
>
> Not without the necessary tools at least.

Even then, I didnt know what anything was in a stripped box. All looked like a pile of junk to me !

> > Indeed,..I select "performance" [switch] to get the box to stay
> > longer in lower gears, otherwise you're always at 1500 rpm with
> > little torque, so it kicks back, something I prefer not to happen all
> > the time.
>
> Then you're doing it the wrong way. With the switch in "Performance"
> mode, it actually kicks back more often.

True,..I dont push the old girl,..it needs to stop up-shifting so soon.

>
> > OK,..I havent heard any gear-noise in 4th. The OD must mean there is
> > at least one gear-set in use I guess tho.
>
> Don't get confused by the bullshit this idiot is spinning. The planetary
> gearset in any automatic transmission is always in constant operation in
> *any* gear, and the transmission can't function if it isn't. The only
> variation is whether the sun gear or the ring gear is moving or
> stationary, but the planet gears spin all the time.
>
> Here's a brief animation of a planetary gearset in action:
>
> > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECljAo1q1RQ

Ta.

> I'm not trying to lob you into the middle of a personality clash here
> Jason, but Krypsis is a fucking idiot who has no idea what he's talking
> about. The planetary gearset in your auto operates whenever the vehicle
> is moving, *just* like it does in any other auto.
>
> There is nothing peculiar about yours that makes it problematic.

I haven't heard of any probs with them either. I drove X & E-series company Fords almost exclusively for 15+ yrs. The autos were good. I could get the ton out of a BTR in 3rd gear [rarely eg when OT B-double]slip it back to D without a noise or jerk. 3rd gear was very handy in those Fords.

Commodores weren't geared the same, I dont think. Used to leave them in D as they didnt have the same flexibility in 3.

> > I should have asked him how many Ks he can get outa one.
>
> I've known taxi fleet operators for years, and 500k km's out of a
> transmission isn't unheard of. The important point to bear in mind here
> is that taxis always return high mileage on their mechanical components
> because they're always at normal operating temperature.
>
> Warm up is where all the mechanical wear occurs. Once normal operating
> temperature is reached wear rates are negligible.

So they say. I just back off about 25% when the car is cold. My mad mate with the 3L Capri would not do the same. Hammer down, cold or hot. Seemed to get away with it too :-)

Ran into him about 6 yrs after he left, and his Capri did need an engine rebuild, but it was at 140,000 miles.

Jason

[Xeno]

On 31/12/2014 3:23 PM, Jason James wrote:
> On Wednesday, December 31, 2014 9:34:10 AM UTC+11, Noddy wrote:
>> On 31/12/14 8:33 AM, Jason James wrote:
>>
>>> By compound, do you mean the metal used ?
>>
>> He doesn't know what he means as he read it straight from Google :)
>>
>> The gearset in the Ford 4 speed is no different from that of most other
>> autos.

Torqueflight A-727 3 Spd - Compound Simpson planetary gearset.

C3, C4, C6 3 Spd - Compound Simpson planetary gearset

JATCO 3 Spd - Compound Simpson planetary gearset.

Ford FMX 3 Spd - Ravineaux Compound planetary gearset.

Ford AOD 4 Spd - Modified FMX to give an overdrive 4th with a ratio of
0.67:1 In 1980, this trans was the first in the industry to provide a
built in overdrive. 3rd gear is 1:1

BW 45 4 Spd - three simple planetary gearsets with the front 2 gearsets
having a common sun gear while the third gearset sun gear is integral
with the ring gear of the middle gear set. No bands....

Turbo Hydramatic 400 3 Spd - 2 simple planetary gearsets using a common
sun gear and a combination driven output shaft. 3rd gear is 1:1

Allison A.T. 540 4 Spd - 3 simple planetary gearsets with the front 2
gearsets having a common sun gear while the third gearset sun gear is
integral with the ring gear of the middle gear set. No bands. 4th gear
is 1:1

Allison 5 Spd M.T. 650 - 4 simple planetary gearsets, the first 3 being
the same as the above 540 with a 4th low gear set. No bands. 5th gear is 1:1

Hmm, seems like there is a lot of difference in gearsets. The above
doesn't cover all types.

>
> I've wondered how they get the OD. Is it a peripheral gear on its own, meaning not used in 1,2 & 3 ?
>

In the case of your BTR trans, there is no "peripheral" gearset. It's
just a matter of what component you're driving, what component you're
holding stationary and what component is the output. The Ravineaux
compound planetary gearset is adaptable for 3 and 4 speed applications
and is also used in the Ford FMX and others. In the three speed version,
you simply do not utilise the ability of the planetary gearset to
provide for an overdrive. On the 4 speed you do use that ability but it
requires a few extra components, notably 2 extra clutchpacks for a total
of 4 and an extra one way clutch for a total of 2. The BTR 4 Spd still
only has 2 bands however. The 3 speed BW35 gets away with 2 clutch
packs, a single one way clutch and 2 bands.

>
>
>>> I get the theory, but wouldn't all boxes use helical gears ?
>>
>> Most of them. As do most manuals use helical cut gears as well, and they
>> do so for noise reduction. Straight cut gears are as noisy as fuck, and
>> they've been using helically cut gears in autos since the days of the
>> Powerglide and before.
>
> Dad's HR used to sing like blazes in neutral :-)
>

Doesn't sound normal... all bands and clutches are released in neutral
so there's no loading on the gears.

>
>> Doing so doesn't cause any intrinsic problems, despite what our resident
>> Dr. Google may suggest :)

End thrust caused by the axial cut of the gears IS an intrinsic problem
and it requires attention. To counter the axial thrust loadings, various
forms of thrust bearings are used.

>>
>>> Real handy :-)
>>
>> Yeah, real handy if you have a bw35, which incidentally would run half a
>> million km's in taxi service without too many issues. They're not a
>> particularly problematic transmission, but if you look hard enough
>> you'll find people having dramas with them.
>>
>> Just like you will if you look for *anything*.
>
> Yeah,.the first Val was a 318 with the 727 trans that the yanks used in their hipo Challenger and Charger. It had a buggered valve-body causing it to stay in 1st. Slipping it into N then back to D would clear it. One day the selectors were loose in the T-bar console. I slipped it into N as I rolled to a red-light and the fucking thing went into Reverse ! Must have been doing about 10 kph. The rears locked up with a squeal. I thought "I'm fucked now",...but she was jake.
>

They have a compound planetary gearset but of the Simpson type.

>
>>
>>> Thanx,..but trying to fix an auto internally, is not something I
>>> would take on,..ever !
>>
>> Not without the necessary tools at least.
>
> Even then, I didnt know what anything was in a stripped box.
> All looked like a pile of junk to me !

That's why you need to be very methodical in your strip down and rebuild
processes. Lay out all parts on special trays on the bench in order of
removal and keep them that way until refit time.

>
>>> Indeed,..I select "performance" [switch] to get the box to stay
>>> longer in lower gears, otherwise you're always at 1500 rpm with
>>> little torque, so it kicks back, something I prefer not to happen all
>>> the time.
>>
>> Then you're doing it the wrong way. With the switch in "Performance"
>> mode, it actually kicks back more often.
>
> True,..I dont push the old girl,..it needs to stop up-shifting so soon.
>

The auto will time the upshift depending on a number of factors. Prime
among these is governor pressure and throttle pressure.
>
<snip>

> Jason
>


--

Xeno.

[Noddy]

On 31/12/14 3:23 PM, Jason James wrote:

> I've wondered how they get the OD. Is it a peripheral gear on its
> own, meaning not used in 1,2 & 3 ?

No, it's all part of the same planetary gearset. It's all connected to
the output shaft, and the ratios they're able to obtain by locking up
one part of the gearset and forcing another to spin. Make the planetary
gearsets more complex and add more of them and you get more ratios.

Like 6 speed auto's today being quite common, and some more upmarket
cars having 7 and 8 speed units.

> Dad's HR used to sing like blazes in neutral :-)

No doubt. I had an EH sedan with a Hydramatic that was as noisy as fuck,
and first gear was appallingly bad. You had to have the radio cranked to
near maximum before you couldn't hear it.

> Yeah,.the first Val was a 318 with the 727 trans that the yanks used
> in their hipo Challenger and Charger. It had a buggered valve-body
> causing it to stay in 1st. Slipping it into N then back to D would
> clear it. One day the selectors were loose in the T-bar console. I
> slipped it into N as I rolled to a red-light and the fucking thing
> went into Reverse ! Must have been doing about 10 kph. The rears
> locked up with a squeal. I thought "I'm fucked now",...but she was
> jake.

I used to do that on purpose with a Trimatic I had in a HR. Roll along
and slip it into "R" at about 20mph and then nail the throttle for a bit
of "Roger Rollback" action.

Stupid shit you do when you're young :)

> Even then, I didnt know what anything was in a stripped box. All
> looked like a pile of junk to me !

It would if you're not familiar.

> True,..I dont push the old girl,..it needs to stop up-shifting so
> soon.

If you want it to get decent mileage, then upshifting as soon as
possible is precisely what you *want* it to do. They make plenty of
torque, so having them lug along at low revs in top gear is fine.

You're not going to break the thing or have it wear out prematurely by
making it change gear. They're designed to do it.

> I haven't heard of any probs with them either. I drove X & E-series
> company Fords almost exclusively for 15+ yrs. The autos were good. I
> could get the ton out of a BTR in 3rd gear [rarely eg when OT
> B-double]slip it back to D without a noise or jerk. 3rd gear was very
> handy in those Fords.

The only one of the 4 speed autos that had any real issues was the BTR
85LE that came out in the series II EA Falcon. It was a very problematic
trans that had a habit of shifting into reverse at speed on it's own,
and when it did it finished the day with an oil pan full of scrap. The
transmission was a "rush job" that was supposed to be ready for the EA's
original release but testing showed it had heaps of issues. It was never
sorted in the 85LE model, and it wasn't until the 91LE arrived shortly
after the EB model was released that things were sorted.

For the most part anyway.

Your car being an ED will have a late 91LE, which has external band
adjusters like an earlier Borg Warner. The following 93LE of the EF/L
range doesn't have them.

> Commodores weren't geared the same, I dont think. Used to leave them
> in D as they didnt have the same flexibility in 3.

The Commodore's "Turbo 700" is a *vastly* superior transmission in any
of it's forms compared to *any* of the BTR offerings used in Falcons.

> So they say.

They do, and for very good reason.




--
--
Regards,
Noddy.

[Xeno]

On 1/01/2015 12:57 AM, Noddy wrote:
> On 31/12/14 3:23 PM, Jason James wrote:
>
>> I've wondered how they get the OD. Is it a peripheral gear on its
>> own, meaning not used in 1,2 & 3 ?
>
> No, it's all part of the same planetary gearset.

On some, not others. It depends on how they are connected. OD is a
natural function of a planetary gearset, as is lockup or 1:1 ratio.

> It's all connected to the output shaft,

Be a bit useless if they weren't connected to the output shaft, wouldn't
they?

> and the ratios they're able to obtain by locking up
> one part of the gearset and forcing another to spin.

You've been Googling again. Now, how do we get a 1:1 ratio again?

> Make the planetary gearsets more complex and add more of them
> and you get more ratios.

You have a penchant for stating the obvious. Now please care to explain
the way it's done.....

>
> Like 6 speed auto's today being quite common, and some more upmarket
> cars having 7 and 8 speed units.

ZF 8 speed - 4 planetary gearsets of which 2 will be a compound gearset
(common sun gear), two brakes, 3 clutches.

>
>> Dad's HR used to sing like blazes in neutral :-)
>
> No doubt. I had an EH sedan with a Hydramatic that was as noisy as fuck,
> and first gear was appallingly bad. You had to have the radio cranked to
> near maximum before you couldn't hear it.
>
>> Yeah,.the first Val was a 318 with the 727 trans that the yanks used
>> in their hipo Challenger and Charger. It had a buggered valve-body
>> causing it to stay in 1st. Slipping it into N then back to D would
>> clear it. One day the selectors were loose in the T-bar console. I
>> slipped it into N as I rolled to a red-light and the fucking thing
>> went into Reverse ! Must have been doing about 10 kph. The rears
>> locked up with a squeal. I thought "I'm fucked now",...but she was
>> jake.
>
> I used to do that on purpose with a Trimatic I had in a HR. Roll along
> and slip it into "R" at about 20mph and then nail the throttle for a bit
> of "Roger Rollback" action.
>
> Stupid shit you do when you're young :)

I never did that sort of shit when I was young. I had respect for the
mechanicals of the car. Besides, if something broke, I was the one who
got to fix it... and that applied to the rest of my family's cars as well.

>
>> Even then, I didnt know what anything was in a stripped box. All
>> looked like a pile of junk to me !
>
> It would if you're not familiar.
>
>> True,..I dont push the old girl,..it needs to stop up-shifting so
>> soon.
>
> If you want it to get decent mileage, then upshifting as soon as
> possible is precisely what you *want* it to do. They make plenty of
> torque, so having them lug along at low revs in top gear is fine.

Autos won't "lug" in top gear. The moment the engine lugs, it
downshifts... You can't lug the engine in an automatic. You can with a
manual gearbox however.

You see, you can only lug an engine if you accelerate from a low engine
speed in a high gear. It doesn't matter how much torque your engine has,
under acceleration at low speed, the auto will downshift.

>
> You're not going to break the thing or have it wear out prematurely by
> making it change gear. They're designed to do it.
>
>> I haven't heard of any probs with them either. I drove X & E-series
>> company Fords almost exclusively for 15+ yrs. The autos were good. I
>> could get the ton out of a BTR in 3rd gear [rarely eg when OT
>> B-double]slip it back to D without a noise or jerk. 3rd gear was very
>> handy in those Fords.
>
> The only one of the 4 speed autos that had any real issues was the BTR
> 85LE that came out in the series II EA Falcon. It was a very problematic
> trans that had a habit of shifting into reverse at speed on it's own,
> and when it did it finished the day with an oil pan full of scrap. The
> transmission was a "rush job" that was supposed to be ready for the EA's
> original release but testing showed it had heaps of issues. It was never
> sorted in the 85LE model, and it wasn't until the 91LE arrived shortly
> after the EB model was released that things were sorted.

That wasn't the only problem they had.. They had lots, including a major
recall and warranty replacement of the entire trans.

>
> For the most part anyway.
>
> Your car being an ED will have a late 91LE, which has external band
> adjusters like an earlier Borg Warner. The following 93LE of the EF/L
> range doesn't have them.
>
>> Commodores weren't geared the same, I dont think. Used to leave them
>> in D as they didnt have the same flexibility in 3.
>
> The Commodore's "Turbo 700" is a *vastly* superior transmission in any
> of it's forms compared to *any* of the BTR offerings used in Falcons.
>
>> So they say.
>
> They do, and for very good reason.
>
>
>
>


--

Xeno.

[Xeno]

On 31/12/2014 8:33 AM, Jason James wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 30, 2014 9:07:01 PM UTC+11, Xeno wrote:
>> On 30/12/2014 10:35 AM, Jason James wrote:
>

<snip>

>
>> Go to page 4 for the power flow...
>>
>> The C2 clutch is the equivalent of the front clutch in the BW35. It is
>> on in all forward gears so it isn't causing you grief. In drive 1, the
>> other two active components are the one way clutches, OWC1 and OWC2. In
>> manual first the rear band is also applied but I'm presuming you are
>> talking about Drive 1 rather than Lock 1. To move to 2nd gear, the front
>> band is applied as is the C4 clutch. OWC1 freewheels but OWC2 remains
>> locked. There are two timing possibilities then, B1 and C4.
>>
>> It helps to have a better power flow diagram and a better chart of
>> active/passive devices. I have a full manual for the BTR on my PC but it
>> is 21 Meg PDF, a bit large to email. Note that the Ssangyong Musso had
>> the same or similar trans so you might find a manual for the BTR under
>> that Marque.
>
> Thanx,..but trying to fix an auto internally, is not something I would take on,..ever !
>

One of the points I forgot to ask, is the shift from 3-4 similar to the
shift from 1-2? I ask because the front band is common in 2nd gear and
4th gear. if it's got an issue in the 1-2 shift, it follows that there
would be some sign of an issue in the 3-4 shift. It may not be the same
noise or even at the same frequency due to different operating
circumstances but I would expect that if the band is the problem, some
symptom would appear in a 3-4 shift as well. You also didn't mention if
the engine "flared" during the shift.

It is a "shift" band so the "how" and "when" of its engagement is
critical to smooth gearshifts. To that end, the apply pressure to the
front band is gradually increased in order to achieve a smooth shift.
This is achieved by the use of a variable pressure solenoid in
conjunction with the front band solenoid.
The servo for the front band is interesting in that it appears to be two
parts. When applying 2nd gear, only the outer section of the servo
piston is used to apply and hold the band. In 4th gear, both the inner
and outer sections of the servo piston are used giving a much higher
apply pressure to the band. That implies that the torque on the band
must be significantly greater in the higher (overdrive) gear. Normally,
in a manual trans, torque would be lower in the higher gears however
just by looking at what the compound planetary gearset is doing in this
circumstance, I can see how this wouldn't be the case in the auto.

Anyway, given that the band has variable pressures applied to it, your
issue could be caused by a number of issues that control or affect band
apply pressure and/or timing. it could be something as simple as a
faulty variable pressure solenoid or faulty inputs regarding vehicle
operating conditions. It could be related to hydraulic pressures in
general... or it could be wear in mechanical components, notably the
band. These aren't a cheap trans to fix and clutches and bands are the
most common points of failure.

<snip>


--

Xeno.