HG-HK-HT Monaro questions.
Forg
Hey all,
I was wondering if anyone had any info about the following;
How much a 308 Monaro weighs,
How feasible it is to fiddle with the body at the back to fit
Hydratrak
(I've seen IRS ones for $850, and if IRS is possible it'd be
nice),
What sort of cheap-ish front & rear brake swaps are possible,
Whether a Supra 6-speed is available here, and how much, and whether
it
fits in similar places to a 5-speed Supra box,
Whether you can make a Monaro handle at all
(Not race-car handling, but as good as, say, a slightly lowered
RS Liberty).
Ta to anyone who has any answers!
--
Forg! -DUH#6=- (Y1)
"...
And he eats your head.
And then you're in the man from Mars.
You go out at night eating cars. You eat Cadillacs,
Lincolns Too. Mercuries and
Subaru.
And you can't stop..."
("Rapture", Blondie, Nineteen seventy-something)
"A closed mouth catches no flame."
Jim Gurieff
> Whether you can make a Monaro handle at all
> (Not race-car handling, but as good as, say, a slightly lowered
> RS Liberty).
>
wise.....as opposed to a late 80's design like a Liberty.
Contact anyone you know that maintains or runs an appendix J race car. Its
easy to prescribe a variety of obvious solutions but anyone seriously
campaigning one of these will know what makes the MOST difference and
where.
In general, keep your tyre profiles low (with rigid carcass), your spring
rates relatively low, swaybar rates high and spend at least 50% of budget
on shocks.
Whiteline Automotive Suspension - Flat Out
See us at http://www.whiteline.com.au
R.J.
Forg wrote:
>
> Hey all,
>
> I was wondering if anyone had any info about the following;
>
> How much a 308 Monaro weighs,
HG GTS 350 (4 speed) weighs 1507 kg, I guess a 308 would not be too
different.
> How feasible it is to fiddle with the body at the back to fit
> Hydratrak (I've seen IRS ones for $850, and if IRS is possible it'd be
> nice),
:-0 WHY? Too much hassle I think.
> What sort of cheap-ish front & rear brake swaps are possible,
Go with HQ discs up front, HQ booster and master cylinder. And probably
(?) early Commodore discs could be made to fit the rear.
> Whether a Supra 6-speed is available here, and how much, and whether it fits in similar places to a 5-speed Supra box,
Don't know if the box is available. But Dellow (in VIC) make kits with
all the parts needed and instructions for where the holes all go etc. So
if they have the kit then the box will fit, or they should know if the 6
speed can be fitted with the 5 speed kit.
> Whether you can make a Monaro handle at all
> (Not race-car handling, but as good as, say, a slightly lowered RS Liberty).
The big problem you would have is the comfort, you can make it handle
like a race car but you'd shake your teeth out. A good set of not too
stiff gas shocks, lowered all round with a new front sway bar and
springs. ***A rear sway bar is a must as the body roll is BAD by 1990's
standards.***
Hope this helps
R.J.
--
***** To email me use: ra...@zip.net.au *****
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Silence does not need to be filled.
Paul Lancaster
Forg wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I was wondering if anyone had any info about the following;
>
> How much a 308 Monaro weighs,
Around 1500 kg.
> How feasible it is to fiddle with the body at the back to fit
> Hydratrak
The cost and mucking around just wouldnt be worth it.Just go for quality
shocks and tyres and dont forget those sway bars.
> (I've seen IRS ones for $850, and if IRS is possible it'd be
> nice),
I would think that to install any IRS would require some major
butchering of the rear pan, in an effort to get the car sitting low. Or
you could follow Holdens lead and retain the luggage area by lowering
the diff center to such an extent that the wheels lay in.
> What sort of cheap-ish front & rear brake swaps are possible,
If you want cheap then forget the rear and concentrate on the front.Go
venterlated disc's (HQ-HZ) and if you want to run wider front tyres
without them scrubbing the go P76 disc's and get a conversion kit from
Rod Hadfield (about $80). If you want to get the car lowered then you
can get lowered stub axles from Hadfield as well ($350), these retain
all suspension travel while lowering the front of the car by a few
inches. The good thing about Hadfield products is that most are
engineere approved.
> Whether a Supra 6-speed is available here, and how much, and
> whether
> it
> fits in similar places to a 5-speed Supra box,
Forget it, go top loader and if you want extra gears the a Doug Nash or
Tremec, but it will cost $$$$.
> Whether you can make a Monaro handle at all
> (Not race-car handling, but as good as, say, a slightly
> lowered
> RS Liberty).
Probably not (after all it is nearly 30 years old and IMO suspension and
handling is where most of the improvement have came over this time),
but you can get close. Due to age you will have to replace a lot of
components, including a full nylothane bush kit.
Cheers,
Paul
--
===========================================================
-||-----||- Paul Lancaster [Paul.La...@dsto.defence.gov.au]
\o/
|
< > Maribyrnong Victoria Australia
===========================================================
"The only way to stop this suicide wave is to make
it a capital offense, punishable by death."
Streaker
Always thought the HK-HT-HG Monaro's had 307's not 308,s
Streaker
"I haven't made a man cry like that since I was
4yrs old and washed my fathers Porsche with stones"
Ross from Freinds
John Littler
R.J. wrote:
>
> Forg wrote:
...snip...
>
> > Whether a Supra 6-speed is available here, and how much, and whether it fits in similar places to a 5-speed Supra box,
>
> all the parts needed and instructions for where the holes all go etc. So
> if they have the kit then the box will fit, or they should know if the 6
> speed can be fitted with the 5 speed kit.
>
Dellow are also in Sydney if that's where you are located.
Dellow Automotive Pty Ltd
37 Daisy St
Revesby
NSW 2212
(02) 9774 3873
Their supra conversion kits are pretty good, I've used one and a few
friends have also done so, no major dramas or fabrication work.
John
Forg
Streaker wrote:
> Always thought the HK-HT-HG Monaro's had 307's not 308,s
...
I am pretty sure the engine was introduced in that shape to replace the
less reliable, thirstier 307 & 327; but that they kept the 350 for a
while 'cos Ford had the 351?
Forg
Paul Lancaster wrote:
> Forg wrote:
> ...
> > Whether a Supra 6-speed is available here, and how much, and
> > whether
> > it
> > fits in similar places to a 5-speed Supra box,
>
> Forget it, go top loader and if you want extra gears the a Doug Nash or
> Tremec, but it will cost $$$$.
...
Why not the 6-speed? Or even the 5-speed? The 6-speed seems to be happy
copping 500hp and turbocharged torque, and seems a lot smoother than what
I've seen of crunchy, grindy top-loaders. This car isn't supposed to be a
race-car, it's supposed to be driveable; ie no need for over-the-top power,
but better suspension than standard would be required.
...
> > Whether you can make a Monaro handle at all
> > (Not race-car handling, but as good as, say, a slightly
> > lowered
> > RS Liberty).
>
> Probably not (after all it is nearly 30 years old and IMO suspension and
> handling is where most of the improvement have came over this time),
> but you can get close. Due to age you will have to replace a lot of
> components, including a full nylothane bush kit.
...
Yeah, that goes without saying. I was just thinking that, if the car was
stripped-out, it might be possible to stuff around with it enough to put
modern suspension in it somehow; and being fairly light to start with
(compared to a new Falcodore), it shouldn't be a really terrible handler.
R.J.
Forg wrote:
>
> Streaker wrote:
>
> > Always thought the HK-HT-HG Monaro's had 307's not 308,s
>
> ...
>
> I am pretty sure the engine was introduced in that shape to replace the
> less reliable, thirstier 307 & 327; but that they kept the 350 for a
> while 'cos Ford had the 351?
>
In the non-GTS (plain Monaro) they even had the red six.:-O
Debbie Marr
Paul Lancaster <paul.la...@dsto.defence.gov.au> wrote in article
<356A00BD...@dsto.defence.gov.au>...
I would think that to install any IRS would require some major
> butchering of the rear pan, in an effort to get the car sitting low. Or
> you could follow Holdens lead and retain the luggage area by lowering
> the diff center to such an extent that the wheels lay in.
Sorry, I think I've missed something here. I always thought that an IRS
had the diff centre mounted to the body/chassis and the drive shafts had a
flexible joint (uni's or cv's) at each end. The diff centre in this case
having no relation to the camber angle of the wheels. Camber gain as the
wheel goes up is related to roll angle's and heights etc to keep the wheel
at 90 deg to the road as the car rolls when cornering. Put more weight in
the back of the car, the wheels go up, you get more neg camber. Same thing
happens if the springs start to sag.
Regards
Peter Marr
Richard Fay
R.J. wrote:
>
> Forg wrote:
> >
> > Streaker wrote:
> >
> > > Always thought the HK-HT-HG Monaro's had 307's not 308,s
> >
> > ...
> >
> > I am pretty sure the engine was introduced in that shape to replace the
> > less reliable, thirstier 307 & 327; but that they kept the 350 for a
> > while 'cos Ford had the 351?
> >
> In the GTS's the HK had the 307 & 327, the HT & HG had 253, 308 and 350
> In the non-GTS (plain Monaro) they even had the red six.:-O
> R.J.
> --
Could have sworn my dad use to own a Monaro GTS 186S.
Gold with the twin stripes.
Got wise and traded it (in 1971) on a Mercedes 250 compact :)
Richard
Richard Fay
Debbie Marr wrote:
Camber gain as the
> wheel goes up is related to roll angle's and heights etc to keep the wheel
> at 90 deg to the road as the car rolls when cornering. Put more weight in
> the back of the car, the wheels go up, you get more neg camber. Same thing
> happens if the springs start to sag.
Depends on the IRS system used.
The sophisticated IRS systems of modern Mercs/BMWs/Audis are designed to
resist camber changes over the entire wheel travel.
The Commodore has a rather simple semitrailing arm IRS system.
AFAIK the car the VN-VS was modelled on (Mid 80's OPel Omega/Senator)
has a sports model that had an extra link in the rear suspension for
more control of camber changes.
Richard
William J Hoffmann
Richard Fay wrote in message <356B9A...@ozemail.com.au>...
>Could have sworn my dad use to own a Monaro GTS 186S.
>Gold with the twin stripes.
I'm sure you're right.
What was the 186S motor?
Was it the same as the XU1 motor,or something different?
My sister once had a boyfriend who had an HQ Monaro with the 202. At least
he could have taken the boot badge off to save the embarrassment.
WJH
Gavin Walker
Debbie Marr wrote:
>
> Paul Lancaster <paul.la...@dsto.defence.gov.au> wrote in article
> <356A00BD...@dsto.defence.gov.au>...
>
> I would think that to install any IRS would require some major
> > butchering of the rear pan, in an effort to get the car sitting low. Or
> > you could follow Holdens lead and retain the luggage area by lowering
> > the diff center to such an extent that the wheels lay in.
>
> Sorry, I think I've missed something here. I always thought that an IRS
> had the diff centre mounted to the body/chassis and the drive shafts had a
> flexible joint (uni's or cv's) at each end. The diff centre in this case
> having no relation to the camber angle of the wheels. Camber gain as the
Some types only have one uni joint on each shaft. Jag IRS is the
typical
sway because it's set up largely transverse.
--
_--_|\ -|- Gavin Walker
/ \ |
\_,--_*/ <- Canberra, gavin....@cmis.csiro.au
v Australia Phone +61-2-62167030 Fax +61-2-62167111
R.J.
Richard Fay wrote:
>
> R.J. wrote:
> >
> > Forg wrote:
> > >
> > > Streaker wrote:
> > >
> > > > Always thought the HK-HT-HG Monaro's had 307's not 308,s
> > >
> > > ...
> > >
> > > I am pretty sure the engine was introduced in that shape to replace the
> > > less reliable, thirstier 307 & 327; but that they kept the 350 for a
> > > while 'cos Ford had the 351?
> > >
> > In the GTS's the HK had the 307 & 327, the HT & HG had 253, 308 and 350
> > In the non-GTS (plain Monaro) they even had the red six.:-O
> > R.J.
> > --
>
> Gold with the twin stripes.
>
You're right, I just forgot.
R.J.
> >Gold with the twin stripes.
>
>
> What was the 186S motor?
>
> Was it the same as the XU1 motor,or something different?
Something different. It was the LC GTR motor. It had a 2 barrel down
draught Stromberg, (the same as was fitted to most 253's). You can
probably remember the round chrome air filter with the cut-out sides so
the the element could be seen.
The XU1 (LC 186 & LJ 202) had the triple side draught Strombergs.
Volker Rehbock
"R.J." <Ple...@fake.com.au> writes:
>Forg wrote:
>>
>> Streaker wrote:
>>
>> > Always thought the HK-HT-HG Monaro's had 307's not 308,s
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I am pretty sure the engine was introduced in that shape to replace the
>> less reliable, thirstier 307 & 327; but that they kept the 350 for a
>> while 'cos Ford had the 351?
>>
>In the GTS's the HK had the 307 & 327, the HT & HG had 253, 308 and 350
>In the non-GTS (plain Monaro) they even had the red six.:-O
>R.J.
Hang on, I'm sure I've seen a few HK/HT/HG shape GTS' with
a 186.
Volker.
Debbie Marr
Richard Fay <fa...@ozemail.com.au> wrote in article
<356B9B...@ozemail.com.au>...
> Debbie Marr wrote:
> Camber gain as the
> > wheel goes up is related to roll angle's and heights etc to keep the
wheel
> > at 90 deg to the road as the car rolls when cornering. Put more weight
in
> > the back of the car, the wheels go up, you get more neg camber. Same
thing
> > happens if the springs start to sag.
>
>
> Depends on the IRS system used.
Point taken.
I haven't had much to do with the cars listed below. I was commenting more
on why the Holden's wheels have neg camber and why the positioning of the
diff centre in the Holden has no bearing on the camber.
>
> The sophisticated IRS systems of modern Mercs/BMWs/Audis are designed to
> resist camber changes over the entire wheel travel.
>
> The Commodore has a rather simple semitrailing arm IRS system.
For simple you can also read cheap to build when compared to other
systems.The Holden system is also an old design. Datsun used it on the 1600
which was released in the sixties. The design was probably used on other
Euro cars before that as well. Then again Holden and Ford for that matter
have been slow to introduce a lot of designs in Australia. Toyota had
coil's on the rear of their Crown in 1964, also had windscreen washers,
heater demister as standard and electric o/drive as well.
Can't really blame Holden and Ford though as the car buying public in
Australia were happy to drive cars 10 years behind the rest of the world.
Regards
Peter Marr
R.J.
William J Hoffmann wrote:
>
> Richard Fay wrote in message <356B9A...@ozemail.com.au>...
>
> >Could have sworn my dad use to own a Monaro GTS 186S.
> >Gold with the twin stripes.
>
> I'm sure you're right.
>
> What was the 186S motor?
>
> Was it the same as the XU1 motor,or something different?
<snip>
Something different. It was similar to the LC GTR motor (different
size). It had a 2 barrel down draught Stromberg, (the same as was fitted
to most 253's). You can probably remember the round chrome air filter
with the cut-out sides so the the element could be seen.
The XU1 (LC 186 & LJ 202) had the triple side draught Strombergs.
The 186S is what the red six should of been like from the start.
Aardwolf
William J Hoffmann wrote:
> My sister once had a boyfriend who had an HQ Monaro with the 202. At least
> he could have taken the boot badge off to save the embarrassment.
New Zealand Rocket? ;-)
Aardwolf.
Paul Lancaster
Forg wrote:
> Streaker wrote:
>
> > Always thought the HK-HT-HG Monaro's had 307's not 308,s
>
> ...
>
> I am pretty sure the engine was introduced in that shape to replace
> the
> less reliable, thirstier 307 & 327
Two very reliable and strong motors.253 & 308 was introduced because
Holden wanted to run Aussie engines in their cars,
It would have looked bad if their performance car still used the US
engine.
HK had the 307,327
HT not quite sure but I think same as HG.
HG had the 253,308, 350.
Cheers,
Paul.
Richard Murray
In article <356CA76C...@dsto.defence.gov.au>, Paul Lancaster <paul.la...@dsto.defence.gov.au> wrote:
>Forg wrote:
>
>> Streaker wrote:
>>
>> > Always thought the HK-HT-HG Monaro's had 307's not 308,s
>>
>> ...
>>
>> I am pretty sure the engine was introduced in that shape to replace
>> the
>> less reliable, thirstier 307 & 327
>
>Two very reliable and strong motors.253 & 308 was introduced because
>Holden wanted to run Aussie engines in their cars,
>It would have looked bad if their performance car still used the US
>engine.
>
>HK had the 307,327
>HT not quite sure but I think same as HG.
>HG had the 253,308, 350.
>Cheers,
>Paul.
>
_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/_/
"Sorry for the Inconvenience."
Richard
Gavin Walker
Debbie Marr wrote:
>
> Can't really blame Holden and Ford though as the car buying public in
> Australia were happy to drive cars 10 years behind the rest of the world.
Also has to do with high tariff protection. The Aussie cars were
half the price of their better designed neighbours.
Forg
Paul Lancaster wrote:
> Forg wrote:
>
> > Streaker wrote:
> >
> > > Always thought the HK-HT-HG Monaro's had 307's not 308,s
> >
> > ...
> >
> > I am pretty sure the engine was introduced in that shape to replace
> > the
> > less reliable, thirstier 307 & 327
>
> Two very reliable and strong motors.
...
Everything I've ever read about buying a Monaro has said not to buy the 327,
because they have always given trouble!?!
Scott
There was nothing really flash about the 186S apart from the Add Onns.
Interestingly it did have thicker main bearing caps than the standard 186
but still used a standard crank. Had a different cam profile which did
provide a suprising amount of power when I bolted on a stage 3 head in
the one I rebuilt for my old Torry.
The original had a chrome rocker cover, with hex bolts holding it on for
looks. Also the factory headers. I don't know if there was anything
special about the casting etc. like high Nickel content? I doubt it.
Paul Lancaster
Forg wrote:
> Everything I've ever read about buying a Monaro has said not to buy
> the 327,
> because they have always given trouble!?!
>
What sort of trouble?
I've owned two (one in a hotrod and another in a HK Monaro) and they
never missed a beat.