Clutch/Gearbox problems VX SS
Slattery (H0llyw00d H0gan)
I was at an intersection this morning waiting for traffic to clear. I turned
the corner and I changed from 1st to 2nd gear. It immediately kicked out to
neutral and locked me out of putting it into any gear at all.
I had to roll to the side of the road.
When I turned the engine off and depressed the clutch I could put it into
any gear, however as soon as I start the engine and depress the clutch i
cannot put it into any gear at all.
I had to tow it back home.
Any idea what has shit itself?
--
Slattery (H0llyw00d H0gan). Running on Bigpond Broadband Cable.
atec77
> I own a VX SS 2001 model Holden Commodore manual.
> I was at an intersection this morning waiting for traffic to clear. I
> turned the corner and I changed from 1st to 2nd gear. It immediately
> kicked out to neutral and locked me out of putting it into any gear at all.
> I had to roll to the side of the road.
> When I turned the engine off and depressed the clutch I could put it
> into any gear, however as soon as I start the engine and depress the
> clutch i cannot put it into any gear at all.
> I had to tow it back home.
> Any idea what has shit itself?
>
>
Knobdoodle
"Slattery (H0llyw00d H0gan)" <som...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_fIbk.17346$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>I own a VX SS 2001 model Holden Commodore manual.
> I was at an intersection this morning waiting for traffic to clear. I
> turned the corner and I changed from 1st to 2nd gear. It immediately
> kicked out to neutral and locked me out of putting it into any gear at
> all.
> I had to roll to the side of the road.
> When I turned the engine off and depressed the clutch I could put it into
> any gear, however as soon as I start the engine and depress the clutch i
> cannot put it into any gear at all.
> I had to tow it back home.
> Any idea what has shit itself?
>
disengaging.
Is the pedal "normal"?
If it's hydraulic check and bleed the fluid, if not adjust the cable/lever.
You can still drive it easy-enough; just turn off the engine, put it in
gear, then start it and it will move forward on the starter-motor.
To change up gears just feather the throttle so it's neither accelerating
nor decelerating and than slip the gear through.
To change down; do as above but only slip the gear to neutral than give it a
rev while applying pressure to the lever. What the revs match the gear will
slip in.
To stop just brake or turn off the key.
--
Knob
Scotty
"Knobdoodle" <knobd...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:BrJbk.17356$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
:
: "Slattery (H0llyw00d H0gan)" <som...@gmail.com> wrote in message
:
My work Hilux does that really well. Getting into 1st takes a little practice but it does get
there. I bet the apprentice the other day smoke that I could drive to the next job without using
the clutch. (Did the first stopped start via starter to show him then used the clutch for the rest
just so I didn't stuff the starter for the sake of a smoke.)
4th to 5th and back is very easy but the hardest is 3rd to second. Not sure if I need more practice
(for what I'm not really sure apart from free food!).
Unless I owned this vehicle (Fleet lease) I'd not be doing it at all unless out of sheer necessity.
Jason James
"Slattery (H0llyw00d H0gan)" <som...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_fIbk.17346$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> I was at an intersection this morning waiting for traffic to clear. I
turned
> the corner and I changed from 1st to 2nd gear. It immediately kicked out
to
> neutral and locked me out of putting it into any gear at all.
Fair bit of guesstimation:
Gear "lockout" is either the clutch is only partially disengaging, or the
selectors on the box are damaged. To test the clutch, with the engine
idling, depress clutch pedal to floor and attempt to select reverse. If the
clutch is stuffed, you'll hear a grating sound. If so,..do the standard
things: fluid up to par in clutch mastercylinder, check slave cylinder is
not loose, observe whether the fork is moving its full amount.
The thing where the gear-stick jumps into neutral is a newy,..but it may be
indicative the stick wasnt completely thru the gate into 1st/2nd. Just a
guess tho.
I'd drain the g/box oil and look for any metal parts like chewed up "C"
clips. Sometimes a box will lose a snapring which allows the gearin question
to have too much end-play causing the symptoms you mentioned.
Jason
Arky
"Slattery (H0llyw00d H0gan)" <som...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_fIbk.17346$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
sounds like the clutch is on the way out.
TT
"Slattery (H0llyw00d H0gan)" <som...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:_fIbk.17346$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
From what you have described it is a common problem. Being able to select
gears with the engine "OFF" means the selectors are all OK. Not being able
to select when the engine is running means it is the clutch that is not
disengaging.
The clutch set up on these is a POS! There is no external clutch adjustment
and they use a Luk self adjusting pressure plate. I won't go into details
but you are up for a new clutch assembly including flywheel, as these are
not machineable.
Note: Who ever fits it must follow the Holden pre-adjustment set up of the
pressure plate or you will be up for another clutch in less than 10,000kms.
Do not believe anyone that says the clutch pressure plate was pre-set at the
factory.
Cheers TT
OzOne
On the way out?
OzOne of the three twins
I welcome you to Crackerbox Palace.
Snapper
> Gear "lockout" is either the clutch is only partially disengaging, or the
> selectors on the box are damaged. To test the clutch, with the engine
> idling, depress clutch pedal to floor and attempt to select reverse. If the
> clutch is stuffed, you'll hear a grating sound. If so,..do the standard
When I had my SS I found that I could select reverse without any crunching while
still moving forward. Previous models wouldn't allow this, as reverse doesn't
have syncho.
Why would the Gen3's gearbox allow it to engage without any noise?
Slattery (H0llyw00d H0gan)
TT
"Snapper" <snap...@y7mail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:ub0274ptbi0lrtpdh...@yarwho.com...
> Jason James wrote...
>
>> Gear "lockout" is either the clutch is only partially disengaging, or the
>> selectors on the box are damaged. To test the clutch, with the engine
>> idling, depress clutch pedal to floor and attempt to select reverse. If
>> the
>> clutch is stuffed, you'll hear a grating sound. If so,..do the standard
>
> When I had my SS I found that I could select reverse without any crunching
> while
> still moving forward. Previous models wouldn't allow this, as reverse
> doesn't
> have syncho.
Yes they did.
>
> Why would the Gen3's gearbox allow it to engage without any noise?
>
Because it has a synchro.
http://www.ttcautomotive.com/English/products/T-56.asp
Read #7 dot point - "Constant mesh synchronized reverse"
Cheers TT
TT
between $400-$500. Don't forget the flywheel must be replaced because it is
not machineable.
Please remember who ever does the job *must* pre-set the pressure plate
adjustment before fitting.
Cheers TT
"Slattery (H0llyw00d H0gan)" <som...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:B0pck.17921$IK1....@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
atec77
TT
"atec77" <atec77...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:g4tt6j$o8u$1...@aioe.org...
The days of cheap clutches are long gone especially if they are sourced from
Europe (like the Commodore) ;-)
Even genuine Toyota Landcruiser or Hi-Lux clutch kits can still be bought
for around $550, except they do not include the flywheel as the Falcon one
you are referring to didn't either.
Cheers TT
atec77
perhaps you don't shop enough and I enquired about the clutch for the
holden , my supplier is much cheaper and we don't know if the flywheel
needs replacement until it is removed and inspected .
TT
**IF** it is OE quality then that is a good price.
> perhaps you don't shop enough
I will not use poor quality rubbish, only OE quality.
> and I enquired about the clutch for the holden , my
> supplier is much cheaper
I was going from memory based on RRP. A bit like comparing
RRP on an Intel CPU as compared with the 1,000 job lot price
that manufacturers get ;-)
> and we don't know if the flywheel needs replacement until
> it is removed and inspected .
The Gen 3 flywheels can not be machined therefore they must
be replaced when replacing the clutch.
Cheers TT
Dan---
>
> The Gen 3 flywheels can not be machined therefore they must be replaced
> when replacing the clutch.
I'm staggered that so many car manufacturers don't have machinable
flywheels. But seeing that most cars sold are now auto's it sort of makes
sense as well.
--
Regards
Dan
Noddy
"TT" <TTencerN...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:V6udnQkC9YbtJu_V...@westnet.com.au...
> **IF** it is OE quality then that is a good price.
OE items like clutches and brake pads are normally made by outside suppliers
anyway, and in our case that tends to be Bendix in East Bentleigh here in
Victoria.
If you buy them from Repco/Burson you're getting *exactly* the same item in
a different box. You'd have to be a complete numptie to buy genuine unless
you wanted to pay extra for the pretty packaging (in which case you'd be a
complete numptie).
> I will not use poor quality rubbish, only OE quality.
You don't have to buy OEM to get OEM quality :)
> The Gen 3 flywheels can not be machined therefore they must be replaced
> when replacing the clutch.
What is it specifically about the GenIII flywheel that makes machining
impossible? I've been machining them for near on 30 years and have yet to
come across one where the design prevented the running surface from being
cleaned up.
I expect the "theory" is one devised by Holden/GM purely to sell more
flywheels :)
--
Regards,
Noddy.
Noddy
"Dan---" <Noe...@needed.com> wrote in message
news:D4adnc_fg-n4IO_V...@posted.internode...
> I'm staggered that so many car manufacturers don't have machinable
> flywheels.
I'd be staggered if I ever saw one that had one :)
--
Regards,
Noddy.
TT
"Noddy" <m...@home.com> wrote in message
news:4872ccaa$0$10665$c30e...@lon-reader.news.telstra.net...
>
> "TT" <TTencerN...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:V6udnQkC9YbtJu_V...@westnet.com.au...
>
>> **IF** it is OE quality then that is a good price.
>
> OE items like clutches and brake pads are normally made by
> outside suppliers anyway, and in our case that tends to be
> Bendix in East Bentleigh here in Victoria.
Correct.
>
> If you buy them from Repco/Burson you're getting *exactly*
> the same item in a different box. You'd have to be a
> complete numptie to buy genuine unless you wanted to pay
> extra for the pretty packaging (in which case you'd be a
> complete numptie).
Correct.
>
>> I will not use poor quality rubbish, only OE quality.
>
> You don't have to buy OEM to get OEM quality :)
Correct again. You're making a habit of this ;-)
>
>> The Gen 3 flywheels can not be machined therefore they
>> must be replaced when replacing the clutch.
>
> What is it specifically about the GenIII flywheel that
> makes machining impossible? I've been machining them for
> near on 30 years and have yet to come across one where the
> design prevented the running surface from being cleaned
> up.
Three reasons:
1) They have a 5 degree tapper on the face. They are *NOT*
flat :-(
2) They are very thin to start with and I have heard that
they will warp when machined.
3) It is written all over them by Holden "Do Not Machine".
>
> I expect the "theory" is one devised by Holden/GM purely
> to sell more flywheels :)
You aint seen nufin' yet! The current trend is to a thing
called a "Dual Mass Flywheel". What this means is that the
clutch plate no longer has the damper springs fitted to but
they are inside the flywheel instead and there is 2 parts to
it - hence Dual Mass. These also can't be machined and or
serviced as the parts are not available and it will/can
affect the dynamic balance of the motor or at least cause
a clutch shudder. Prices for this type of flywheel can be
any where from $1,500 - $2,500 up!! Then you still need the
clutch plate, pressure plate and release bearing! Oh and a
bit of labour to stick it in.
Here is a link to the Luk site about them.
http://www.luk.com/content.luk.de/en/products/dampers/zms_sv/zms_sv.jsp
Anyone interested check out the prices for a current model
Transit van, Pajero, Audi A4 or even the common old
Commodore V6 and V8. These all have this type of clutch
arrangement.
Cheers TT
atec77
>
>> perhaps you don't shop enough
>
> I will not use poor quality rubbish, only OE quality.
how dare you assume I would , fact is it is oem in another box ,
toyota don't miss on parts prices
>
>> and I enquired about the clutch for the holden , my
>> supplier is much cheaper
>
> I was going from memory based on RRP. A bit like comparing
> RRP on an Intel CPU as compared with the 1,000 job lot price
> that manufacturers get ;-)
but I priced one ... please explain
>
>> and we don't know if the flywheel needs replacement until
>> it is removed and inspected .
>
> The Gen 3 flywheels can not be machined therefore they must
> be replaced when replacing the clutch.
bullshite , I went and asked the local bloke ( I maintain his office
machines) and he has the opinion of two clutches per wheel with normal
use and will not use the factory wheel , says he uses a replacement
wheel when required without a taper and the whole thing is very
affordable , this is holden who are again like all manufatures not cheap
on parts
>
> Cheers TT
>
>
Noddy
> 1) They have a 5 degree tapper on the face. They are *NOT* flat :-(
How do you think it got there in the first place? It was *machined*?
> 2) They are very thin to start with and I have heard that they will warp
> when machined.
If you take half an inch off maybe, but a light clean up won't do anything.
Just like the theories abound that you can't bore GenIII blocks because
they're very thin, and people are boring them just like anything else.
> 3) It is written all over them by Holden "Do Not Machine".
Again, I expect this is purposely done to sell more flywheels :)
> You aint seen nufin' yet! The current trend is to a thing called a "Dual
> Mass Flywheel". What this means is that the clutch plate no longer has
> the damper springs fitted to but they are inside the flywheel instead and
> there is 2 parts to it - hence Dual Mass. These also can't be machined
> and or serviced as the parts are not available and it will/can affect the
> dynamic balance of the motor or at least cause a clutch shudder. Prices
> for this type of flywheel can be any where from $1,500 - $2,500 up!! Then
> you still need the clutch plate, pressure plate and release bearing! Oh
> and a bit of labour to stick it in.
Here's a funny thing....
Usually anything that is produced by machining can be *repaired* by the same
type of machining. There are exceptions of course, like cracked cap
connecting rods for example, but being exceptions they're generally not the
rule. In the case of flywheels, be they dual mass or otherwise, the idea of
machining is to do nothing other than clean up the surface in preparation
for new friction material, and that generally involves removing less than 5
thousandths from the running face.
If doing that caused a balance problem in an engine with a dual mass
flywheel then I certainly wouldn't want to own one.
> Here is a link to the Luk site about them.
>
> http://www.luk.com/content.luk.de/en/products/dampers/zms_sv/zms_sv.jsp
Thanks.
> Anyone interested check out the prices for a current model Transit van,
> Pajero, Audi A4 or even the common old Commodore V6 and V8. These all
> have this type of clutch arrangement.
Interestingly, why companies need to resort to such complicated and
expensive arrangements when perfectly adequate clutches have existed for
decades without the need to be expensive is beyond me.
A clutch is one of the most simple devices you can get. They don't need to
be complicated and I thought only people like Ford could totally fuck them
up :)
--
Regards,
Noddy.
Dan---
Here another staggering news
A mate had to get his gearbox replaced on his Patrol needed a new clutch
and a "machined" flywheel all for a lump sum of $3000.
He wasn't happy.
--
Regards
Dan
OzOne
>
>"TT" <TTencerN...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
>news:h5WdnRAE0b-iSO_V...@westnet.com.au...
>
>> 1) They have a 5 degree tapper on the face. They are *NOT* flat :-(
>
>How do you think it got there in the first place? It was *machined*?
>
Yep and if you take it off the friction face, you take the same off
the mounting face for the clutch.
Noddy
> Here another staggering news
> A mate had to get his gearbox replaced on his Patrol needed a new clutch
> and a "machined" flywheel all for a lump sum of $3000.
>
> He wasn't happy.
Good enough reason not to ever own a fucking Patrol :)
--
Regards,
Noddy.
Dan---
They ain't too bad but fuck the 4800 6 cylinder models can drink like an
old slapper on his/her pension day. ;-)
--
Regards
Dan
TT
Yes the fuel is a problem. The clutch is a dual mass
flywheel type as well but there are conversion kits
available to convert them back to an earlier type.
Cheers TT
TT
Sorry atec but how do you get the above to mean I am saying
that you do???? It says that I don't, that's all.
> fact is it is oem in another box ,
As I said above.
> toyota don't miss on parts prices
>>
>>> and I enquired about the clutch for the holden , my
>>> supplier is much cheaper
>>
>> I was going from memory based on RRP. A bit like
>> comparing RRP on an Intel CPU as compared with the 1,000
>> job lot price that manufacturers get ;-)
> but I priced one ... please explain
>>
>>> and we don't know if the flywheel needs replacement
>>> until it is removed and inspected .
>>
>> The Gen 3 flywheels can not be machined therefore they
>> must be replaced when replacing the clutch.
> bullshite , I went and asked the local bloke ( I maintain
> his office machines) and he has the opinion of two
> clutches per wheel with normal use and will not use the
> factory wheel , says he uses a replacement wheel when
> required without a taper
Still means he has to replace the flywheel ;-) So perhaps
you would like to reconsider that "BS" remark of yours?
> and the whole thing is very affordable , this is holden
> who are again like all manufatures not cheap on parts
Yep, parts are going through the roof. Manufacturers are
giving cars away and are now making you spend an arm and leg
to maintain them :-(
Cheers TT
TT
>
> "TT" <TTencerN...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
> news:h5WdnRAE0b-iSO_V...@westnet.com.au...
>
>> 1) They have a 5 degree tapper on the face. They are
>> *NOT* flat :-(
>
> How do you think it got there in the first place? It was
> *machined*?
Now it has been "cooked" and hot spots and carbon
impregnation it must be sufaced ground. This now makes it a
little more difficult.
>
>> 2) They are very thin to start with and I have heard that
>> they will warp when machined.
>
> If you take half an inch off maybe, but a light clean up
> won't do anything.
I'm only relaying what my local machine shop has told me.
>
> Just like the theories abound that you can't bore GenIII
> blocks because they're very thin, and people are boring
> them just like anything else.
>
>> 3) It is written all over them by Holden "Do Not
>> Machine".
>
> Again, I expect this is purposely done to sell more
> flywheels :)
For a repairer to ignore this means if it fails he is
leaving himself open to litigation!!! Please tell me why
any repairer would risk being sued just to save a customer a
few bucks?
>
>> You aint seen nufin' yet! The current trend is to a
>> thing called a "Dual Mass Flywheel". What this means is
>> that the clutch plate no longer has the damper springs
>> fitted to but they are inside the flywheel instead and
>> there is 2 parts to it - hence Dual Mass. These also
>> can't be machined and or serviced as the parts are not
>> available and it will/can affect the dynamic balance of
>> the motor or at least cause a clutch shudder. Prices
>> for this type of flywheel can be any where from $1,500 -
>> $2,500 up!! Then you still need the clutch plate,
>> pressure plate and release bearing! Oh and a bit of
>> labour to stick it in.
>
> Here's a funny thing....
>
> Usually anything that is produced by machining can be
> *repaired* by the same type of machining.
See my comments abiove about surface grinding.
>There are exceptions of course, like cracked cap connecting
>rods for example, but being exceptions they're generally
>not the rule. In the case of flywheels, be they dual mass
>or otherwise, the idea of machining is to do nothing other
>than clean up the surface in preparation for new friction
>material, and that generally involves removing less than 5
>thousandths from the running face.
In the case of a dual mass flywheel it must be disassembled,
machined, re-assembled and new rivets, springs etc fitted.
Weighing up the total cost and possible problems why would
anyone do this.
>
> If doing that caused a balance problem in an engine with a
> dual mass flywheel then I certainly wouldn't want to own
> one.
Most manufactures are going this way so if you want a manual
then you will end up with one.
>
>> Here is a link to the Luk site about them.
>>
>> http://www.luk.com/content.luk.de/en/products/dampers/zms_sv/zms_sv.jsp
>
> Thanks.
>
>> Anyone interested check out the prices for a current
>> model Transit van, Pajero, Audi A4 or even the common old
>> Commodore V6 and V8. These all have this type of clutch
>> arrangement.
>
> Interestingly, why companies need to resort to such
> complicated and expensive arrangements when perfectly
> adequate clutches have existed for decades without the
> need to be expensive is beyond me.
To improve fuel economy and to reduce vibration and resonace
in vehicles because *YOU* the customer has demanded it ;-)
>
> A clutch is one of the most simple devices you can get.
Not any more ;-) There are huge changes coming in clutch
designs for modern manual gearboxes.
Have a look at this link on VW's DSG
http://cars.about.com/od/thingsyouneedtoknow/a/ag_howDSGworks.htm
One gear box with two clutches!
> They don't need to be complicated and I thought only
> people like Ford could totally fuck them up :)
Nah! Plenty of others are having a go now :-))
Cheers TT
atec77
>>>> and we don't know if the flywheel needs replacement
>>>> until it is removed and inspected .
>>> The Gen 3 flywheels can not be machined therefore they
>>> must be replaced when replacing the clutch.
>> bullshite , I went and asked the local bloke ( I maintain
>> his office machines) and he has the opinion of two
>> clutches per wheel with normal use and will not use the
>> factory wheel , says he uses a replacement wheel when
>> required without a taper
>
> Still means he has to replace the flywheel ;-) So perhaps
> you would like to reconsider that "BS" remark of yours?
>
>> and the whole thing is very affordable , this is holden
>> who are again like all manufatures not cheap on parts
>
> Yep, parts are going through the roof. Manufacturers are
> giving cars away and are now making you spend an arm and leg
> to maintain them :-(
pile ( which is why our v8 pushrod wagon is an auto)
>
> Cheers TT
>
>
>
Noddy
> Now it has been "cooked" and hot spots and carbon impregnation it must be
> sufaced ground. This now makes it a little more difficult.
Piss easy for a properly set up shop actually.
> I'm only relaying what my local machine shop has told me.
Fair enough, but I'm guessing your local machine shop has told you that
because they couldn't be bothered doing the job.
> For a repairer to ignore this means if it fails he is leaving himself open
> to litigation!!!
Crap :)
> Please tell me why any repairer would risk being sued just to save a
> customer a few bucks?
A repairer probably doesn't give a shit either way, and there's probably
some unscrupulous types who would charge for a new flywheel and just surface
the old one anyway. Usually whenever such "use once then throw away" parts
come into play a market exists to give them a new life.
That said, if someone bought a GenIII flywheel to me and asked me to machine
it, I would happily do so and charge them accordingly (more than a
conventional flywheel machine due to the specific setup required for the
job, but a shitload less than what a replacement costs).
I wouldn't have any qualms in doing so, would expect no problems and just
because Holden prints "do not machine" onto it doesn't mean it's *law*.
In the engine reconditioning business there is any number of regular
practices that manufacturers frown upon or flat out disagree with but that
doesn't mean they're wrong. It simply means the manufacturer gets to sell
less parts.
> See my comments abiove about surface grinding.
Yeah, I saw them.
> In the case of a dual mass flywheel it must be disassembled, machined,
> re-assembled and new rivets, springs etc fitted. Weighing up the total
> cost and possible problems why would anyone do this.
*if* you had to do all of that (and I'd bet your left testicle on the fact
that you wouldn't) it's still be cheaper than replacing the assembly.
What your saying is similar to asking why would you bother dismantling,
reconditioning and assembling a cylinder head when you can buy a brand new
assembly from the dealer.
> Most manufactures are going this way so if you want a manual then you will
> end up with one.
Luckily for me I prefer to drive auto's :)
> To improve fuel economy and to reduce vibration and resonace in vehicles
> because *YOU* the customer has demanded it ;-)
Um, not me. I've never asked a manufacturer for anything, and I dare say no
one else has either.
Such devices exist usually for one of two reasons: They're either cheap on
their own, or they're a cheap mask to solve a more complicated problem that
would otherwise cost a lot of time and money to fix by other means.
It generally has fuck all to do with it being a "better idea".
> Not any more ;-) There are huge changes coming in clutch designs for
> modern manual gearboxes.
Oh yay.
More homosexual colledge graduates who think they need to reinvent the
fucking wheel. Just what we need :)
> Nah! Plenty of others are having a go now :-))
Just as well I like to drive auto's :)
--
Regards,
Noddy.
Daryl Walford
> Genuine Holden kit from memory is approx.$1200-$1300 and labour should be
> between $400-$500. Don't forget the flywheel must be replaced because it is
> not machineable.
>
> Please remember who ever does the job *must* pre-set the pressure plate
> adjustment before fitting.
Do they commonly damage the flywheels?
Not all flywheels need machining at clutch replacement time.
Daryl
Daryl Walford
>
> The Gen 3 flywheels can not be machined therefore they must
> be replaced when replacing the clutch.
Why?
Daryl
Daryl Walford
replacing a clutch with first inspecting it unless there is something
wrong with Holden V8 clutches that makes them chew out flywheels.
Daryl
Noddy
"Daryl Walford" <dwal...@internode.on.net> wrote in message
news:5sednaY74t-y9-7V...@posted.internode...
> I'm staggered that someone thinks a flywheel has to be machined when
> replacing a clutch with first inspecting it unless there is something
> wrong with Holden V8 clutches that makes them chew out flywheels.
Yeah, they don't need to be changed or machined every time the clutch is
swapped.
--
Regards,
Noddy.
TT
as new condition you will not need to have a new or freshly machined
surface. When the clutch is worn out and has been slipping, that is another
matter entirely and you will need to address the surface ;-) Or suffer the
consequences.
Cheers TT
TT
> TT wrote:
>> Genuine Holden kit from memory is approx.$1200-$1300 and labour should be
>> between $400-$500. Don't forget the flywheel must be replaced because it
>> is not machineable.
>>
>> Please remember who ever does the job *must* pre-set the pressure plate
>> adjustment before fitting.
>
> Do they commonly damage the flywheels?
Yes.
> Not all flywheels need machining at clutch replacement time.
Yes they do.
Cheers TT
atec77
>
> Cheers TT
>
>
Jason James
Interesting subject. I found this>>
http://www.users.on.net/~nweber/commodore/vz/news-04.html
A dual-mass flywheel with torsional damper eliminates gear rattle and
driveline shudder in manual transmission applications.
Holden V6s, at least the ones up to VS that we had at work,..we went Ford
after the VS Commy, did have a low frequency shudder if you gave it some
stick on take-offs. Wasnt aware it was flywheel related,..live and learn.
Jason
atec77
it , the Capri v6 did it to a lessor extent
The Raven
Agreed, sounds like another manufacturer saying "replace" rather than
"repair" when it is perfectly practical to do so.
I recall a certain engine manufacturer saying to replace the crankshaft if
the wear exceeded 2thou on any bearing surface. The crank was from an
industrial engine and cost $14K to replace. Of course, the reconditioning
businesses all reground them and used undersized bearings (which obviously
weren't OEM). Those engines went on to last several more standard rebuild
cycles.
The Raven
news:4873baa1$0$1203$c30e...@pit-reader.telstra.net...
Given the 90degree design of the V6 (not perfect) and the balance shafts
they implemented, that would probably have a greater influence on any
shudder vibration than the flywheel design. I'm making the assumption that
the shudder you allude to wasn't due to poor clutch technique.
Daryl Walford
The hundreds I've replaced haven't all needed their flywheels machined
and I wouldn't assume it was needed until I inspected the particular clutch.
Next thing you will tell us is that machining disc rotors is the way to
solve a brake shudder problem.
Daryl
Daryl Walford
Seems they are using those flywheels to mask the real problem which is
crap gearboxes.
I've noticed Holden gearboxes with that problem over many models, even
my sons VU SS ute does it a bit, never noticed it on a Toyota or other
Jap car.
Daryl
Noddy
"TT" <TTence...@westnet.com.au> wrote in message
news:p8GdnRILXcN...@westnet.com.au...
> Yes.
And you know this how? From your machinist mate?
> Yes they do.
No, they *don't*.
Clearly you have no fucking idea.
--
Regards,
Noddy.
Noddy
> Yes, you are correct. Swapping a like new, perfectly operating clutch, in
> as new condition you will not need to have a new or freshly machined
> surface. When the clutch is worn out and has been slipping, that is
> another matter entirely and you will need to address the surface ;-) Or
> suffer the consequences.
No you don't.
The need to do something about the flywheel is totally dependent on it's
condition, and you don't change or machine them as a matter of course. *If*
the running surface of the flywheel is damaged in any way or is in less than
stellar condition then it would be advisable to do something about it,
however it's not a given that it will be and I've changed *plenty* of high
mileage clutches where the flywheel didn't need anything doing to it.
If you want to believe the tripe handed down by the manufacturers that you
"need to do this each time you do that" then car ownership is going to be a
very costly exercise for you.
--
Regards,
Noddy.
Noddy
"Jason James" <a...@peace.com> wrote in message
news:4873baa1$0$1203$c30e...@pit-reader.telstra.net...
> Interesting subject. I found this>>
>
> http://www.users.on.net/~nweber/commodore/vz/news-04.html
>
> A dual-mass flywheel with torsional damper eliminates gear rattle and
> driveline shudder in manual transmission applications.
>
> Holden V6s, at least the ones up to VS that we had at work,..we went Ford
> after the VS Commy, did have a low frequency shudder if you gave it some
> stick on take-offs. Wasnt aware it was flywheel related,..live and learn.
If they bothered to build their drivelines *without* ten miles of backlash
they wouldn't need to resort to "exotic" flywheels to hide the fact that
their components are made by the lowest priced bidder :)
--
Regards,
Noddy.
Noddy
"The Raven" <swils...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:4873f607$0$17507$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au...
> Agreed, sounds like another manufacturer saying "replace" rather than
> "repair" when it is perfectly practical to do so.
Absolutely.
> I recall a certain engine manufacturer saying to replace the crankshaft if
> the wear exceeded 2thou on any bearing surface. The crank was from an
> industrial engine and cost $14K to replace. Of course, the reconditioning
> businesses all reground them and used undersized bearings (which obviously
> weren't OEM). Those engines went on to last several more standard rebuild
> cycles.
Standard practice I'm afraid.
Manufacturers will always have their "limits" and advise on replacement
rather than repair as repairing doesn't earn them any dosh. The really funny
thing is that most times when it's under warranty and *they're* paying for
it they'll choose to repair almost every time :)
--
Regards,
Noddy.
TT
"pissing" contest with you either.
TT
Noddy
> Resorting to insults now eh?
Just stating the obvious.
> And I won't enter into a "pissing" contest with you either.
Whatever.
--
Regards,
Noddy.