Macpac News from NZ
Alan Hogg
____________________________________________
Macpac to manufacture offshore
About 150 staff at the Macpac manufacturing plant in Christchurch are to
lose their jobs, in a move the company says will save it from collapse.
From later this year Macpac, which sells outdoor equipment and clothing,
will have its products made by contractors in Asia.
The company's managing director, Bruce McIntyre, says Macpac has lost more
than a million dollars in the past 18 months, partly due to the rising New
Zealand dollar .
He says its impossible for it to remain viable while manufacturing here.
The company will continue to design and market its products from
Christchurch, with a staff of around 60 people.
Source: RNZ
____________________________________________
Pity to lose the skills of the people here.
Alan Hogg
Mike
news:alan.hogg-250...@ahogg.erth.waikato.ac.nz...
> Here is the latest on Macpac here in NZ:
>
> ____________________________________________
>
> Macpac to manufacture offshore
>
> About 150 staff at the Macpac manufacturing plant in Christchurch are to
> lose their jobs, in a move the company says will save it from collapse.
>
It's very hard for companies to stay afloat and compete in the global market
with the higher overheads we have in this part of the world.
Many other Australasian companies have already seen the writing on the wall
and made the move.
Do you think the gear quality of outdoor companies which manufactured in
Australasia previously has suffered as a result of the gear being made in
Asia?
All my primary gear (packs etc is Oz made).
Steve Reynolds
mjth...@xyz.com says...
> Do you think the gear quality of outdoor companies which manufactured in
> Australasia previously has suffered as a result of the gear being made in
> Asia?
It's not just a problem with outdoor companies moving manufacturing to
Asia it's all manufacturing.
As a general rule, if the label says made in an Asian country I don't
buy it if I can possibly avoid it. Made in Asia usually means "another
crap product" The "BIG" exception to this rule is made in Japan.
SR
David Springthorpe
>Here is the latest on Macpac here in NZ:
Longer story at
http://www.stuff.co.nz/stuff/0,2106,2580359a13,00.html
DS
Steve Reynolds
says...
> My recent tent purchase was a WE First Arrow, made in Vietnam. WE has moved
> all of their manufacture out to Vietnam, under their control with design,
> development and marketing still based in Australia. I can definitely say
> that the quality is not crap. The First Arrow is every bit as good as, in
> fact better than, the similar Macpac tents. Quality comes down to who
> controls production and what rules or standards they set, not what
> nationality they are.
Yeah right... So how's it going to feel, sitting out your next blizzard
in a Vietnamese POS?
I know what I'd rather be in!
SR
Roger Caffin
> > > As a general rule, if the label says made in an Asian country I don't
> > > buy it if I can possibly avoid it. Made in Asia usually means "another
> > > crap product" The "BIG" exception to this rule is made in Japan.
Hum. You're going to be a little short on gear then. As far as I know,
almost ALL gear sold in Australia is made overseas.
I think Summit in Katoomba may still be sewing packs there. I am still
making ultra-lightweight gear in Sydney, but that's hardly volume! Who else
is there manufacturing in Oz?
However, since the Asian market is VERY fiercely competitive, I am not sure
I would blame the Asians for any quality problems. I would check the
management from Australia. And I haven't seen any poor fabric gear from Asia
anyhow.
Cheers
Roger Caffin
Steve Reynolds
> Hum. You're going to be a little short on gear then. As far as I know,
> almost ALL gear sold in Australia is made overseas.
But I believe you can still buy gear that is made in the USA or the EU.
> However, since the Asian market is VERY fiercely competitive, I am not sure
> I would blame the Asians for any quality problems.
I would; I have a couple of friends who are buyers for Australian
companies who have gone off-shore. Quality control and honesty are not
concepts factories in Asia, particularly in China, are familiar with.
SR
David Springthorpe
>Hum. You're going to be a little short on gear then. As far as I know,
>almost ALL gear sold in Australia is made overseas.
>I think Summit in Katoomba may still be sewing packs there. I am still
>making ultra-lightweight gear in Sydney, but that's hardly volume! Who else
>is there manufacturing in Oz?
>
>However, since the Asian market is VERY fiercely competitive, I am not sure
>I would blame the Asians for any quality problems. I would check the
>management from Australia. And I haven't seen any poor fabric gear from Asia
>anyhow.
As someone said, the now Vietnam made WE gear is just as good as before because
the manufacturing is carefully supervised.....
DS
Allan Mikkelsen
>In article <3f24...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, r.ca...@tpg.com.au says...
>> However, since the Asian market is VERY fiercely competitive, I am not sure
>> I would blame the Asians for any quality problems.
>
>I would; I have a couple of friends who are buyers for Australian
>companies who have gone off-shore. Quality control and honesty are not
>concepts factories in Asia, particularly in China, are familiar with.
As in many walks of life, "What you get is what you pay for".
If you are willing to pay for quality and quality control, you will get it
from China.
If you order and pay for cheap and nasty, you get cheap and nasty.
Kelly's Supplies Pty Ltd
packs and Travel packs. In our store, we have often compared the attributes
of Macpac and One Planet, with only preferential 'style' differences being
the outcome. Hopefully, One Planet will continue to deliver their quality
products for years to come.
We have also encountered many brands made in Vietnam which are outstanding
value as well. I think with any goods carrying a 5/lifetime guarantee there
has to be a quality standard. If not, we would be seeing returns on packs
and gear daily. If you are concerned when buying an item made overseas, I
would check with the retailer who and where the wholesalers are, for any
future reference.
Michelle
"Roger Caffin" <r.ca...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3f24...@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
Peter Hains
--snip--
> Hum. You're going to be a little short on gear then. As far as I know,
> almost ALL gear sold in Australia is made overseas.
> I think Summit in Katoomba may still be sewing packs there. I am still
> making ultra-lightweight gear in Sydney, but that's hardly volume! Who else
> is there manufacturing in Oz?
Well I couldn't let this one go by unanswered. After much searching I
have found that several Australian companies make excellent gear hear
in Oz.
Here is my most complete list to date (no particular order):
One Planet: Backpacks/gaiters/sleeping bags (down only)
Wilderness Wear: An excellent range of outdoor gear, including socks
that have been discussed so much of late. (Order a catalogue, it's
more complete than the web site).
Roman: mainly sleeping bags (down and synthetic), some made in China
Aurora: Sleeping bags
Pitch Black: backpacks
Summit Gear: backpacks
Sea-to-Summit: Mostly imported, but do make some gear here
Paddy Pallin: mainly sleeping bags and some clothes made in Oz, rest
imported
There are also numerous companies that make boots for bushwalking in
Oz:
Steel Blue (excellent boots)
Redback
Rossi
Blundstone
and others that I've forgotten right now.
Oz companies now making OS:
Wilderness Equipment
White Mountain
Kathmandu
Mountain Designs
Black Wolf
The quality of all of these companies is as good, and in many cases
better than, the imported goods and the prices are competitive.
Compare the price of a WE pack to a One Planet pack, you'll find they
are very similar. I for one, am more than happy to buy Australian Made
whenever possible. Yes, they can be hard to track down on occasions,
but I am yet to be disappointed. Make the effort to buy from these
companies and support your local industry! I'll be happy to supply web
addresses to anyone that wants them, but a search should find most
companies (except Aurora, which doesn't seem to have a website).
My 2c worth,
Peter
Mike
"Peter Signorini" <pet...@alphalink.com.au> wrote in message
news:3f2786dc$1...@news.alphalink.com.au...
>
> "Steve Reynolds" <nu...@bitbucket.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.198fc5826...@61.9.191.5...
> > In article <3f24...@dnews.tpgi.com.au>, r.ca...@tpg.com.au says...
> > > Hum. You're going to be a little short on gear then. As far as I know,
> > > almost ALL gear sold in Australia is made overseas.
> >
> > But I believe you can still buy gear that is made in the USA or the EU.
>
> >
> > > However, since the Asian market is VERY fiercely competitive, I am not
> sure
> > > I would blame the Asians for any quality problems.
> >
> > I would; I have a couple of friends who are buyers for Australian
> > companies who have gone off-shore. Quality control and honesty are not
> > concepts factories in Asia, particularly in China, are familiar with.
>
>
> One day you'll come out of the 19th century and see the real world.
>
> Cheers
> Peter
> >
Onya Peter, I'm with ya.
Roger Caffin
> One Planet: Backpacks/gaiters/sleeping bags (down only)
Hum? Some of their gear is made here, but how much?
> Wilderness Wear: An excellent range of outdoor gear, including socks
> that have been discussed so much of late. (Order a catalogue, it's
> more complete than the web site).
OK
> Roman: mainly sleeping bags (down and synthetic), some made in China
> Aurora: Sleeping bags
?? web site??
> Pitch Black: backpacks
?? web site??
> Summit Gear: backpacks
Yes
> There are also numerous companies that make boots for bushwalking in Oz:
> Steel Blue (excellent boots)
?? web site??
> Redback
> Rossi
> Blundstone
> and others that I've forgotten right now.
Bunyip in Vic - quite good
> Oz companies now making OS:
> Wilderness Equipment
> White Mountain
> Kathmandu
> Mountain Designs
> Black Wolf
Mont (Fiji)
I guess I was referring mainly to packs, parks, bags and tents. It is good
to see survivors, but one wonders for how long? Sad.
Cheers
Roger Caffin
Steve Reynolds
says...
> > > Hum. You're going to be a little short on gear then. As far as I know,
> > > almost ALL gear sold in Australia is made overseas.
> >
> > But I believe you can still buy gear that is made in the USA or the EU.
>
An odd response... You obviously haven't visited these countries, and
have a very limited exposure to modern history if you think the work
force in those countries is exclusively, or even predominantly
Caucasian.
> > > However, since the Asian market is VERY fiercely competitive, I am not
> sure
> > > I would blame the Asians for any quality problems.
> >
> > I would; I have a couple of friends who are buyers for Australian
> > companies who have gone off-shore. Quality control and honesty are not
> > concepts factories in Asia, particularly in China, are familiar with.
>
> Not to mention they have slanty eyes, eh?
>
> One day you'll come out of the 19th century and see the real world.
The issues I mentioned have nothing to do with race and everything to do
with culture. If you recall, or care to read my earlier post, you will
see that I did mention that the exception was Japan, and the last time I
checked, the Japanese defiantly were not Caucasian.
As your debating skills improve you will discover that resorting to
insults, racism and crude innuendo diminishes and degrades your argument
rather than enhancing it.
PLONK
Steve Reynolds
says...
>
> "Steve Reynolds" <nu...@bitbucket.com> wrote in message
> news:MPG.198fc5826...@61.9.191.5...
> > > Hum. You're going to be a little short on gear then. As far as I know,
> > > almost ALL gear sold in Australia is made overseas.
> >
> > But I believe you can still buy gear that is made in the USA or the EU.
>
An odd response... You obviously haven't visited these countries, and
have a very limited exposure to modern history if you think the work
force in those countries is exclusively, or even predominantly
Caucasian.
> > > However, since the Asian market is VERY fiercely competitive, I am not
> sure
> > > I would blame the Asians for any quality problems.
> >
> > I would; I have a couple of friends who are buyers for Australian
> > companies who have gone off-shore. Quality control and honesty are not
> > concepts factories in Asia, particularly in China, are familiar with.
>
> Not to mention they have slanty eyes, eh?
>
> One day you'll come out of the 19th century and see the real world.
The issues I mentioned have nothing to do with race and everything to do
with culture. If you recall, or care to read my earlier post, you will
see that I did mention that the exception was Japan, and the last time I
checked, the Japanese defiantly were not Caucasian.
As your debating skills improve you will discover that resorting to
insults, racism and crude innuendo diminishes and degrades both you and
your argument.
PLONK
Peter Hains
to clarify...
> > One Planet: Backpacks/gaiters/sleeping bags (down only)
> Hum? Some of their gear is made here, but how much?
As far as I know all One Planet products are made in Oz. The website
(www.adventureone.com.au) refers to a Melbourne based workshop. All
products state the country of origin and I am yet to see one other
than "Australia."
> Bunyip in Vic - quite good
Didn't know about them, thanks.
> I guess I was referring mainly to packs, parks, bags and tents. It is good
> to see survivors, but one wonders for how long? Sad.
Agreed, I found it impossible to buy an Oz made tent for bushwalking,
so I did the next best thing and got a Second Arrow by WE. It turns
out my tent was actually Made in Oz, so I guess they didn't go
offshore too long ago. My sleeping bag, clothes and packs are all Oz
made. Not relly that hard to do, I have great equipment and feel good
about supporting local industry.
At the risk of harping on...
We can all help these companies survive by supporting them. If they
made junk, then they deserve to go out of business, but the simple
fact is the products are excellent.
Peter
Allan Mikkelsen
>Roger,
>
>to clarify...
>
>> > One Planet: Backpacks/gaiters/sleeping bags (down only)
>> Hum? Some of their gear is made here, but how much?
>
>As far as I know all One Planet products are made in Oz. The website
>(www.adventureone.com.au) refers to a Melbourne based workshop. All
>products state the country of origin and I am yet to see one other
>than "Australia."
AFAIK, bugger all One Planet products are made in Oz. They originally
taraded as J&H and made sleeping bags etc in a factory in factory in
Queanbeyan, after originnaly using their garage in Canberra.
They moved offshore (Fiji?) a few years ago, and also took over / merged
with / were taken over by anaother small local manufacturer (Aiking?).
I suspect that this part of the business is still done in Oz, but the J&H
part is long gone.
Cheers, Allan
Ken
news:i5ahiv0ud87ifoc8c...@4ax.com...
(except day packs) clearly says "Made in Australia".
S.Inkson
> I guess I was referring mainly to packs, parks, bags and tents. It is good
> to see survivors, but one wonders for how long? Sad.
> Cheers
> Roger Caffin
The 'Numero Uno' of One Planet was a guest of our club recently. He stated
with the way things were looking, five more years in Australia may be the
limit.
Their gear really does seem to be top shelf though and deserves patronage.
Simon
Allan Mikkelsen
>"Allan Mikkelsen" <amik...@pcug.org.au> wrote in message
>> They moved offshore (Fiji?) a few years ago, and also took over / merged
>> with / were taken over by anaother small local manufacturer (Aiking?).
>> I suspect that this part of the business is still done in Oz, but the J&H
>> part is long gone.
>>
>Just looked at their website and all the One Planet sleeping bags and packs
>(except day packs) clearly says "Made in Australia".
The "Company History" is at
http://www.adventureone.com.au/ma/ma-tech/ma-history.htm
This seems to indicate that they have moved back to Oz after having gone
offshore to NZ - "In January 1993, J & H opened a manufacturing base in
Christchurch, New Zealand, and soon after changed their name to One Planet "
Not very many manufacturers move back these days - even from NZ..
Cheers, Allan
Aaron Kearns
have made in Aus on them but are they.
"Peter Hains" <ha...@uow.edu.au> wrote in message
news:e9fbc028.03072...@posting.google.com...
Roger Caffin
> AFAIK, bugger all One Planet products are made in Oz. They originally
> taraded as J&H and made sleeping bags etc in a factory in factory in
> Queanbeyan, after originnaly using their garage in Canberra.
I think that is roughly correct. One Planet (I think), J&H and Aiking merged
to the present OP.
> They moved offshore (Fiji?) a few years ago,
You may be thinking of Mont, who are still in Queanbeyen. They have their
own factory with an Australian manager in Fiji. Some late-stage work is
still done in Q.
Cheers
Roger Caffin
David Morrison
Allan Mikkelsen <amik...@pcug.org.au> wrote:
If I remember correctly, the New Zealand move came about because of
Australian import duties. The duty on rolls of Goretex fabric was much,
much higher than the duty on made-up garments. This meant that their
gear was priced much higher than similar NZ-made gear.
It was a no-brainer to move manufacturing to NZ.
David
John Atkinson
"Steve Reynolds" <nu...@bitbucket.com> wrote ...
> The issues I mentioned have nothing to do with race and everything to do
> with culture. If you recall, or care to read my earlier post, you will
> see that I did mention that the exception was Japan, and the last time I
> checked, the Japanese defiantly were not Caucasian.
That's strange. I always thought that Japan was compliantly Caucasian --
it's just below Chechnya and to the right of Armenia, isn't it? And isn't
Elbrusyama the highest mountain in Japan?
John.
Peter Hains
"Aaron Kearns" <kear...@spamoptusnet.com.au> wrote in message news:<3f2a0b8e$0$31920$afc3...@news.optusnet.com.au>...
> Willing to put money on 50% or more of these being made overseas. They might
> have made in Aus on them but are they.
Even by my standards, you are a cynic. Government regulations are
quite clear about the labelling of goods as to their country of
manufacture. Whilst these regulations aren't watertight, consider Dick
Smith's "Dickhead" matches as an example, it would be difficult for
any bushwalking equipment to be labelled using similar loopholes. I
agree, some of the fabrics (if not all) come from OS, but the process
of making the items must be here is Aus. I fail to undestand why some
people consider it impossible that goods are made here. Yes some
companies use misleading labels such as "All Australian," or give it
some cliche Australian name, but a simple check of the country of
origin gets through the BS.
Whilst I'm at it (again), all of the One Planet goods are made in Oz.
Look at the most recent Wild Magazine Gear Survey (issue 89) and
you'll see the "Rucksacks" are made in Oz, the One Planet web site
clearly states all the gear is made in Oz AND the goods themselves say
they are Made in Oz. This includes the Daypacks, whilst the website
doesn't mention it for all their daypacks, the goods themselves are
labelled "Made in Australia." I know as I own two and check! No I
don't have an interest in One Planet, they have just been used to
illustrate a point.
Peter
Steve Cooke
at least until October 2002. I rang the factory last October to ask them
if they would make me a Dryloft sleeping bag (they had changed to Epic
by then) - which they did promptly. I also endorse the comments made by
a previous author in this thread - One Planet gear is world class and
the only way for such a company to survive in Australia is for people
like us to support them.
I believe Mountain Designs still make some of their top end sleeping
bags in Australia. I know the Col is made here, I bought one during
their Easter sale this year.
Steve Cooke.
David Springthorpe
wrote:
>I also can vouch for One Planet making their sleeping bags in Australia,
>at least until October 2002. I rang the factory last October to ask them
>if they would make me a Dryloft sleeping bag (they had changed to Epic
>by then) - which they did promptly. I also endorse the comments made by
>a previous author in this thread - One Planet gear is world class and
>the only way for such a company to survive in Australia is for people
>like us to support them.
May I ask, is Dryloft better than Epic in your / anyone else's evaluation ?
I have been evaluating 3-season sleeping bags lately, including the One Planet
line, with intention of possible purchase - where can I purchase an OP bag at a
usual discounted price (main supplier Snowgum doesn't offer discounts like other
stores, merely a rebate on future purchases) ?
DS
Steve Cooke
It gives a very good overview of sleeping bags; and the FAQ on shellwear
gives an excellent technical overview of the fabrics. I know the latter
is from a shellwear perspective, but the details may be extrapolated to
other products that use the same, or similar, fabrics.
My personal preference is Dryloft (as you can tell!), but it probably
makes little difference to a sleeping bag - except to the cost!
As far as OP retailers are concerned, Snowgum are the only boys on the
block here in Hobart.
Steve.
Roger
Allgoods in Launceston also sell One Planet, not sure if they do in Hobart.
Roger
"Steve Cooke" <stephe...@dpiwe.tas.gov.au> wrote in message
news:3F6682A4...@dpiwe.tas.gov.au...
Roger Caffin
> May I ask, is Dryloft better than Epic in your / anyone else's evaluation
?
And the answer is, of course, 'it depends'.
Thoughts: Dryloft is airtight. The bag CAN"T breath air. But Epic can breath
air. To me that suggests that Epic is the better fabric for a sleeping bag.
It is being used now in America for lightweight sleeping bags.
Cheers
Roger Caffin
David Springthorpe
>And the answer is, of course, 'it depends'.
>
>Thoughts: Dryloft is airtight. The bag CAN"T breath air. But Epic can breath
>air. To me that suggests that Epic is the better fabric for a sleeping bag.
>It is being used now in America for lightweight sleeping bags.
I've gotta read more of that FAQ.....!
DS
Roger Caffin
> Roger Caffin wrote:
> >Thoughts: Dryloft is airtight. The bag CAN"T breath air. But Epic can
breath
> >air. To me that suggests that Epic is the better fabric for a sleeping
bag.
> >It is being used now in America for lightweight sleeping bags.
> I've gotta read more of that FAQ.....!
As to sleeping bags: why would you want a *waterproof and airtight* Dryloft
sleeping bag shell?
It's no use as a bivy bag: water gets in at the stitching.
It's no use in hot weather: you will bake and sweat up the inside of the
bag.
It's of little use in cold weather: the cold air will likely cause
condensation on the inside of the shell.
It may be of some use when camping in a snow cave - but how often do you do
that?
Even the Epic fabric is a bit of an overkill imho. It does not breath very
well, so a lot of the above still applies. What you are seeing is a
marketing push for higher prices by selling 'features' which no-one has
explained or justified. In general these extra features mean higher weight
as well. You pay, you carry, you sucker.
So what do I think is suitable? A non-wetting fabric with airflow and no
waterproof layer is (imho) the best. This translates into a traditional
Pertex-style fabric, but with a good DWR. Many of the Pertex brand fabrics
are suitable (and are used of course). The new DP Airnet fabric is also very
good. These fabrics breath easily (and have specs stipulating how much
airflow they have) but water drops will roll off.
</soapbox> :-)
Cheers
Roger Caffin
Ed Huesers
Roger Caffin wrote:
> As to sleeping bags: why would you want a *waterproof and airtight* Dryloft
> sleeping bag shell?
> It may be of some use when camping in a snow cave
Well, I prefer a small tarp to wrap up over my feet so they don't get
wet when touching the walls. Tarps have more uses. I actually use what
we call a poncho.
> but how often do you do that?
Looks like not often enough, you guys do travel to the "big peaks"
and could use the experience.
> </soapbox> :-)
Heh, and we have another election coming up in one year in the USA.
Gads, the hoar.
Ed Huesers
Roger Caffin
> Roger Caffin wrote:
> > As to sleeping bags: why would you want a *waterproof and airtight*
Dryloft
> > sleeping bag shell?
> > It may be of some use when camping in a snow cave
> Well, I prefer a small tarp to wrap up over my feet so they don't get
> wet when touching the walls. Tarps have more uses. I actually use what
> we call a poncho.
Walls? In an igloo? Sir!
But seriously, a good point. I usually stack (waterproof) food bags and
other gear down the sides of the tent to avoid touching the inside walls. Of
course, with a double skin tent, you don't often get condensation on the
inside wall.
Cheers
Roger Caffin
Steve Cooke
I have to beg to differ with you re Dryloft. In my experience, it does
breathe. Not as well as my old taffeta bag, granted, but then it
doesn't get as damp on long walks. I stand by my original claim.
By the way, I apologise for the top-post.
Steve.
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:16:19 +1000, "Roger Caffin"
<r.ca...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
>> >Thoughts: Dryloft is airtight. The bag CAN"T breath air. But Epic can
>>breath
>
Roger Caffin
> I have to beg to differ with you re Dryloft. In my experience, it does
> breathe. Not as well as my old taffeta bag, granted, but then it
> doesn't get as damp on long walks. I stand by my original claim.
I am intrigued. What is the air flow through Dryloft?
Note: AIR flow, not water vapour transmission.
With a full Dryloft bag, would you know if there was dampness inside the
bag?
Anyhow, We air our bags when it is sunny on long trips. Works just fine.
> By the way, I apologise for the top-post.
don't apologise. It's fine.
Cheers
Roger Caffin
John Atkinson
"Roger Caffin" <r.ca...@tpg.com.au> wrote...
>
> With a full Dryloft bag, would you know if there was dampness inside the
> bag?
You may not be able to see or feel it, but it'd certainly make a difference
as far as keepng you warm was concerned.
> Anyhow, We air our bags when it is sunny on long trips. Works just fine.
I guess you've never walked in 14 days of continuous norwester (in NZ).
John.
Steve Cooke
I have no means of testing the AIR flow through the Dryloft membrane. I
suspect, after having done a simple search for such information as is
available on the WWW (see below), that if I were to ask Gore for that
information, and if they were willing to respond, they would say
something like "there is no air flow." So, how is the fabric supposed to
breathe?
In answer to that, I must say that I find some of the rhetoric
reasonable. I don't mean to second-guess your response, but people might
say "well, there goes another sucker - believing everything the
advertising gurus say!" I can only hold up my hands and say, "I've not
had any problems." Maybe I've not been in some of the environments where
Dryloft would fail - I'm thinking, here, of dry/cold, perhaps high level
moutaineering(?).
There appears to be no definitive, objective, advice when it comes to
sleeping bag shells. And there is some logic in that - different strokes
for different folks. Or, in this case, different fabrics for different
uses. The use I have of my sleeping bag is adequately met by its Dryloft
shell. I certainly thought long and hard about which type of shell would
be appropriate for the environs I would be subjecting myself and my bag to.
At the risk of outstaying my welcome, I'd like to ruminate a bit on some
of my reasoning - not all of it is strictly logical; in fact, a lot is
purely subjective:
There are a lot of claims made by the manufacturers of shell fabrics,
some reasonable, some maybe not so. And "innovation" in technical
fabrics is certainly continuing apace. This may be a result of market
imperative - each new season brings a "new" fabric, along with the new
season's offerings of tents, clothing and sleepware, all of which is
competing for market share. Some of that may also be due to
manufacturers of such items requiring continuous rationalisation of
their processes and costs.
An example may be that some fabrics probably cost more than others, and,
if a manufacturer can use a cheaper fabric that claims similar
properties to a more expensive fabric, then that will be used in
preference to the expensive one. No matter whether the performance meets
the bombast or not. In this case, the newer the fabric, the better; the
claims of the fabric manufacturer cannot be verified independently until
the fabric has been "tested" in the real world. Another example may be
found in Macpac's recent decision to move production offshore, in an
effort to reduce process costs.
Now, maybe I was a little cynical there. I do trust the claims
manufacturers of the brands I have had good experience with in the past,
make (does that make sense?). That is all I have to go on. No one can
offer truly independent, objective advise.
Macpac, Mountain Designs, Fairydown, One Planet. These are all companies
I have had experience with. I don't "blindly" trust them; I reserve the
right to be conservative, and catholic, in my choices. To that end, when
I was looking around for a new sleeping bag, Dryloft was the older, more
established shell fabric; Epic was the bold, brash "new boy on the
block." Every second bit of clothing was made from Epic; all "new"
sleeping bags were made from Epic (well, ok, some were Hydronaute, but
I'd not heard anything regarding the performance of Hydronaute at the
time - still haven't actually.) When it comes to the business end of a
transaction, we each have to make a judgment. Whether that judgment is a
good one, or not, is definitely subjective. "I KNOW that my purchase was
good because the item I've purchased has adequately met my
requirements." Passing that information on is one of the reasons forums
like this exist. I do not doubt that what you say has subjective truth,
but you must also take my word that my experiences also have subjective
truth.
I must confess, also, that confidence plays a big role in my choices of
equipment. I need to feel confident that the gear I shell out for is
going to survive whatever reasonable use I make of it. More confidence
equals less stress, and on a long walk the less energy spent on gear
worries the better. In fact, I would consider it dangerous to
participate in any activity, where survival may be jeopodised by
inappropriate or faulty gear, were I not confident that my gear was
capable of meeting the requirements of that activity.
Make of that what you will.
Steve.
------------------
References:
http://www.couloirmag.com/Gear/reviews/clothing/fabric_glos.asp
http://www.gore-tex.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ContentGView?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&productId=10405
http://www.thetechnicalcenter.com/pk/tm_list.cfm?Type=Alpha#G
...and for balance:
http://www.angelfire.com/ak4/HighIceAk/Tips.html
Roger Caffin
> Roger Caffin wrote
> > With a full Dryloft bag, would you know if there was dampness inside the
> > bag?
> You may not be able to see or feel it, but it'd certainly make a
difference
> as far as keepng you warm was concerned.
> > Anyhow, We air our bags when it is sunny on long trips. Works just fine.
> I guess you've never walked in 14 days of continuous norwester (in NZ).
Very true. But last summer in France was the wettest for 50 years, with rain
every day. It was a disaster for the tourist industry, and we spent 6 weeks
walking in it. Yes, we noticed our bags slowly getting damp, but we managed
to find time to dry them out. It made a lot of difference.
14 days? That would be the entire length of New Zealand, wouldn't it? :-)
Cheers
Roger Caffin
Roger Caffin
> I have no means of testing the AIR flow through the Dryloft membrane. I
> suspect, after having done a simple search for such information as is
> available on the WWW (see below), that if I were to ask Gore for that
> information, and if they were willing to respond, they would say
> something like "there is no air flow." So, how is the fabric supposed to
> breathe?
A good question. The answer lies in defining what they mean by 'breathe'.
When Gore use it they are talking about the transmission of water vapour
molecules, NOT of air in bulk. (Cunning people, those spin doctors.)
But fair enough, because the original application for Gore-Tex was parkas.
Promoting Dryloft ( a very light version) for sleeping bags is really a
marketing effort to find wider sales for a fabric. Fair enough if you want
the bag for snow caves: then the Dryloft could be quite useful. But not for
Australian conditions. As you said elsewhere: applications and conditions
vary.
> I can only hold up my hands and say, "I've not had any problems."
The final test.
> Maybe I've not been in some of the environments where
> Dryloft would fail - I'm thinking, here, of dry/cold, perhaps high level
> moutaineering(?).
Actually, dry cold conditions suit Dryloft, and Gore-Tex in general, much
better than the warm humid conditions here in Australia. The differential
between inside and outside is so much greater in dry cold conditions, and
that drives the vapour transmission. A Gore-Tex parka on Everest would be
good, but not in a humid Sydney summer storm.
> At the risk of outstaying my welcome, I'd like to ruminate a bit on some
> of my reasoning - not all of it is strictly logical; in fact, a lot is
> purely subjective:
Good Lord - we all do that! At length!
> There are a lot of claims made by the manufacturers of shell fabrics,
> some reasonable, some maybe not so. And "innovation" in technical
> fabrics is certainly continuing apace.
OK. I spent 27 years as a research scientist (physics, measurement
technology) in textile research. Someone in the industry once said to us
that there were no more great advances to be made in fabric technology. What
utter crap! Only now are we starting to see what I would call really
'engineered' fibres and fabrics. But, being 'engineered', they may be only
suited to the conditions they were engineered for.
> This may be a result of market imperative - each new season brings a "new"
fabric
No, I think there really are 'new' fabrics. I am using some of them. They
are great!
> along with the new
> season's offerings of tents, clothing and sleepware, all of which is
> competing for market share.
True, but the marketing aspect does not diminish the real techncial advances
being made. See the ultralight section in the FAQ for more comments on what
can be done to halve the weight of gear today.
> An example may be that some fabrics probably cost more than others, and,
> if a manufacturer can use a cheaper fabric that claims similar
> properties to a more expensive fabric, then that will be used in
> preference to the expensive one. No matter whether the performance meets
> the bombast or not. In this case, the newer the fabric, the better; the
> claims of the fabric manufacturer cannot be verified independently until
> the fabric has been "tested" in the real world.
Somehow, I doubt this, at least for the mainstream Australian manufacturers.
I know a lot of these guys (the owners of the companies), and they know this
market - and they are outdoors people. They know they would be crucified if
they tried to pull a swifty on the bushwalking community. In fact, their
conservatism is one of my complaints!
> Another example may be
> found in Macpac's recent decision to move production offshore, in an
> effort to reduce process costs.
Example of what? Of the global move to minimise manufacturing costs in ALL
industries - yes. Because their local competition has already done so,
because the Asian imports are just so much cheaper.
> I was looking around for a new sleeping bag, Dryloft was the older, more
> established shell fabric; Epic was the bold, brash "new boy on the
> block."
I have Dryloft gear (duvet shell - more or less justified there imho).
I have also made and used gear using Epic fabric. I know its limits (it sure
has them), but I also know its strengths.
> Whether that judgment is a
> good one, or not, is definitely subjective. "I KNOW that my purchase was
> good because the item I've purchased has adequately met my
> requirements."
Fair enough.
But maybe something else might be even better? (There speaks a true gear
freak!)
> Passing that information on is one of the reasons forums
> like this exist. I do not doubt that what you say has subjective truth,
> but you must also take my word that my experiences also have subjective
> truth.
More than that: your experiences are of interest to other readers who have
not yet tried out the gear you are talking about. How often have I run a
field test of some gear, only to find out that there were some factors I had
not considered beforehand!
> I must confess, also, that confidence plays a big role in my choices of
> equipment. I need to feel confident that the gear I shell out for is
> going to survive whatever reasonable use I make of it. More confidence
> equals less stress, and on a long walk the less energy spent on gear
> worries the better.
And we go walking for enjoyment.
My last trip (5 days planned) was with my ultralightweight gear (OK) and a
new ultra-lightweight pack under development. The shoulder straps on the
pack turned out to have dodgy anchors, which was a bit of a worry for a day
until I found a way of temporarily fixing them! All good fun - for me.
> In fact, I would consider it dangerous to
> participate in any activity, where survival may be jeopodised by
> inappropriate or faulty gear, were I not confident that my gear was
> capable of meeting the requirements of that activity.
Keep saying it. I'll do the chorus.
But the skills and experience of the person also count. An experienced
person usually knows his/her limits a lot better, and can run closer to
them.
</sermon>
Cheers
Roger Caffin
David Springthorpe
>14 days? That would be the entire length of New Zealand, wouldn't it? :-)
Have you been to NZ.....?
DS
David Springthorpe
>Cheers
>Roger Caffin
Maybe because it's because I've been out out, come home, had a couple of white
wines, but I'm confused about all this stuff about different sleeping bag covers
- SORRY I MENTIONED IT ORIGINALLY.....!
DS
Steve Cooke
is very healthy. Sorry for the confusion caused by it though.
I stand by my original reply to your post. Read the FAQ, "listen" to
what Roger says and also to other authors' experiences. It looks as
though the most important thing to do, when considering any new gear, is
to work out what your requirements are. This includes the intended use
and the environment within which the item will be *mostly* used. This
will get you a long way down the road to a decision.
Another important consideration is cost. I really do NOT mean to be
condescending or patronising here, but in my opinion, if the cost of the
item that most closely meets my requirements is more than I am willing
to pay/can afford, I'll put the purchase off until it is on special
somewhere, rather than buying an item that matches the size of my wallet
but is not quite what I was after. And I really should not be saying all
this - it is just commonsense.
Specifically, sleeping bag shells are made from a variety of fabrics.
Epic and Dryloft are just two such. Pertex, taffeta and Hydronaute are
other common shell fabrics, and there are others. Some fabrics may have
a DWR treatment, some might not. I have found that Dryloft meets my
needs adequately - I use my gear exclusively in Tasmania (high rainfall,
low temperatures, low humidity, snow (even in Summer), all of which are
notoriously unpredictable). If these are similar to the conditions that
you will be tackling then you might do worse than consider a Dryloft
bag. Roger, and others, may even concur with that! Other than that, I
cannot say. The FAQ is a good start though.
Hope this has reduced your confusion and helped you a little as well.
Steve Cooke.
David Springthorpe
>Hope this has reduced your confusion and helped you a little as well.
It was partially the two glasses of wine that caused my "confusion".....
DS
Roger Caffin
> Roger Caffin wrote:
> >14 days? That would be the entire length of New Zealand, wouldn't it? :-)
> Have you been to NZ.....?
Yes.
(Check smiley at end of line.)
Cheers
Roger Caffin
Cameron Lewis
<r.ca...@tpg.com.au> wrote:
I have one old (J&H Dandelion) sleeping bag which I use for everything
from summer at Arapiles to ski touring. The material is taffeta. For
snow or cold conditions I have a Goretex bivy bag to go over the top of
it. This is more a sleeping bag cover then a bivy bag. It has a light
rip-stop nylon outer laminate and "fluff" on the inside and a draw cord
rather than any poles or hoops.
This work very well. In wet conditions it keeps the bag dry and in cold
conditions it adds some warmth which I have found adequate for anywhere
I've been. It is also very flexible.
I find that I usually use a lighter bag than others I travel with and
that it stays considerably drier, and therefore maintains warmth, on
long trips. I think the Goretex layer keeps the outer layer of the bag
at a higher temperature and reduces condensation of perspiration
vapour. Including the bivy bag the 'package' weight would be similar to
what others carry.
I would have though that for a sleeping bag restricting, but no
stopping, airflow is desirable. Airflow allows convection which results
in heat loss. No airflow causes moisture to build up from perspiration.
A balance needs to be struck where you restrict as much airflow as you
can without causing a sweat problem.
Of course for those without a bivy bag the old trick of zipping up your
Goretex jacket and pulling it over the foot of your bag partly achieves
the same effect. Its the foot of the bag that tends to get the wettest
anyway.
Cameron Lewis
Marshall Wilkinson
> Of course for those without a bivy bag the old trick of zipping up your
> Goretex jacket and pulling it over the foot of your bag partly achieves
> the same effect. Its the foot of the bag that tends to get the wettest
> anyway.
>
>
> Cameron Lewis
Yep, this is something I do, but I got in trouble recently when I had
changed to a nylon jacket. Woke up the next morning with a surprisingly wet
foot section!
Marsh.
Cameron Lewis
Wilkinson <marsh...@ozemail.com.au> wrote:
Yep, a good way to demonstrate that Goretex does actually work. ;-)