Is Goretex really worth it?
Pete
Two pronged question...firstly, something for people to discuss ;-) and
secondly I'd genuinely like to hear some opinions.
(Hoping) to do a two-week walk in Tassie over summer (South Coast and Pt
Davey Tracks back-to-back). I've been told (by people who have done the
Overland) that my existing raingear is inadequate (which I would tend to
agree with -- though my Drizabone does indeed keep the rain off!), so am
looking at upgrading. My walking colleague has Goretex, and recommends
that I go down the same route, but I am struggling to see that it is
worth twice the price.
At the moment I am able to get a Macpac jacket (Copland style, Reflex
Taslan Fabric) on sale for ~$180, whereas anything Goretex (also on
sale) is double that price. The Macpac jacket certainly seems like a
strong and sturdy jacket, and while I'm sure that the Goretex is even
better, I'm struggling to justify to myself that it's worth the extra.
Another alternative would be to go for something less than 3-layer, in
which case the price of Goretex comes down; but I am likely to regret
not having a full 3-layer jacket? (Although I can also see that the
smaller and lighter 2-2.5 layer jackets would have some advantages).
I'd be interested to hear some opinions.
Many thanks.
Pete.
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: So what is everyone doing?
Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2007 14:14:33 +1000
From: Roger Caffin <r.ca...@tpg.com.au>
Newsgroups: aus.bushwalking
This place seems dead. Why?
Cheers
johns...@mbox.com.au
>I've been told (by people who have done the Overland) that my existing raingear >is inadequate.
>My walking colleague has Goretex, and recommends
>that I go down the same route, but I am struggling to see that it is
>worth twice the price.
I'll be doing the Overland for the first time just after Xmas. Unless
people tell me I'll die if I don't do otherwise, I'm planning to use
Rainbird breathable raingear (or similar). I own 2 sets of this type
of stuff. Cheap, lightweight. If it rains and you work up a sweat
you'll get wet from the inside anyway, irrespective of Goretex or any
other breathable fabric IMHO. What may reduce that effect (to a
degree) is a layer of clothing between the rainwear and base layer, eg
a polar fleece top. See the FAQ for details about this.
That said, I own a Gore windstopper softshell vest. I recently walked
about 15 km in it carrying a full pack in fairly continuous rain. It
seemed to stay fairly dry inside.
>Another alternative would be to go for something less than 3-layer, in
>which case the price of Goretex comes down; but I am likely to regret
>not having a full 3-layer jacket?
Don't know. I believe that the South Coast weather can be more severe
than the OT. In some respects I kind of regret not buying a 3 layer
Goretex jacket I spotted about 12 months ago for $100 at an end of
season sale. At that price it sounds like I missed an absolute
bargain.
Kind regards,
John W
(to reply change mbox to bigpond and remove .au)
Roger Caffin
> people tell me I'll die if I don't do otherwise, I'm planning to use
> Rainbird breathable raingear (or similar). I own 2 sets of this type
> of stuff. Cheap, lightweight. If it rains and you work up a sweat
> you'll get wet from the inside anyway, irrespective of Goretex or any
> other breathable fabric IMHO. What may reduce that effect (to a
> degree) is a layer of clothing between the rainwear and base layer, eg
> a polar fleece top. See the FAQ for details about this.
Cheers
Dz Nguyen
conditions. I was lucky to find a new pack and boots last weekend when they
were on sale. A new pack cover is still needed.
Dzung
"Pete" <pe...@dont.spam.me> wrote in message
news:xq2Ii.18$qJ3....@news.optus.net.au...
Robert Green
>
> Two pronged question...firstly, something for people to discuss ;-) and
> secondly I'd genuinely like to hear some opinions.
>
> (Hoping) to do a two-week walk in Tassie over summer (South Coast and Pt
> Davey Tracks back-to-back).
A mate and I did the Port Davey Track last December and took
Rainshield O2 gear.
But firstly some background. Pete and I have been getting our gear
lighter and lighter. We believe in the lightweight section of the
FAQ. My current weight, all up except food and water, is 6 kg. That
includes tent, pack, sleeping mat, wet weather gear, EPIRB. GPS and
everything else including spare clothes. Over the past couple of
years I have been trying different wet weather gear. I started with
Goretex (750 gm for the jacket alone) and went down in weight through
Rainbird (475 gm) to Go Lite and Rainshield O 2 gear.
The Rainshield O2 is superlight - virtually nothing. It, and all of
the relevant gear, is reviewed on the www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews
site. That site is mandatory viewing.
On the Port Davey Track Pete took the Rainshield overtrousers and the
Rainshield O2 jacket. I took the Go Lite Reed overtrousers and the
Rainshield O2 top.
Pete damaged the jacket and the trousers. I did not damage either.
On the Port Davey track, where the brush is close and a little
scratchy, I would recommend the Go Lite Reed trousers and the
equivalent Go Lite jacket.
The Rainshield gear, which the cyclists use and which we have used on
walks like the Light to Light, is fine on a track but not durable in
scratchy bush. The Go Lite gear is fine for all but Australia's
scratchiest conditions and is certainly good enough for the Port Davey
Track and the South Coast track.
The bottom line is that you do not buy Goretex. It is expensive and
heavy. Rainbird is OK but still too heavy. The Go Lite gear is
excellent and is fine for all Australian conditions. The Rainshield
O2 gear is superlight but should be used on tracks.
In terms of cost, the Rainshield gear is cheap - only - $40 US. The
Go Lite gear is about $150 US. Goretex is expensive and is not worth
the extra. It is also very heavy.
Buy all gear either direct from GoLite or through http://www.backcountrygear.com
which has an excellent service.
I hope that helps.
Cheers
Robert
mark.g...@gmail.com
The ultra-light stuff gets damaged in Tasmanian bush, as does the
heavy stuff if you are rough on it.
I currently use Hydronaute (Mont), because it was $125 cheaper and
supposed to be just as good. I don't think it is. It's waterproof and
windproof (although I'm not sure it's as good as GoreTex on the latter
there), but it doesn't breathe as well. I think the membrane is now
failing too, well before the same point in time at which the Gore-Tex
one did previously.
I know many people poo-poo Gore-Tex, but there must be a reason it
still sells. I have to say I have never felt so safe (water and wind
proof), and had such a sense of the breathability (some sort of
feeling of lightness - ok, weird but confirmed for me once you
exercised in it) as when wearing a new 3-layer Gore-Tex coat in a
howling, icy, wet, ridge-top wind. Over time it did deteriorate, but
it took some years (and then it carked rapidly and spectacularly), and
it breathed better than anything else, although not perfect. I will
probably shell out for another one next time. It's worth it when
you're on your own, miles from nowhere and the weather gets ugly. I
just don't want to rely on a cheap coat to keep me alive, when I'm
confident the expensive one will do so. I also want to be as
comfortable as possible in less extreme circumstances, and the GoreTex
coat seemed to give that. If you aren't going anywhere potentially
dangerous, it probably doesn't matter.
The South Coast Track can be pretty ordinary, but you can always set
off the EPIRB when you get tired, especially if you're from SA and not
used to the dampness, distance, hills, mud, remoteness, cold, lack of
hamburgers, lack of warm showers, missing the wife/hubby/other
etc.....Tassie operates a complimentary 'I don't like your silly/long/
muddy bushwalk" idiot-retrieval helicopter service, so just EPIRB away
people...;-)
And on the other walk, The Overland Track is packed with people
(Tasmanians, occasional sensible mainlanders, professional guides,
rangers, hut wardens, track workers, dozens of well-known wilderness
photographers) who will help you (yes, they will) if your cheap crappy
gear fails, so feel free to rely on someone else to sort out your
problems for you. :-( (Maybe hope it doesn't snow much that day or
something.) I recall the German git who had a go at me for carrying a
raincoat, jumper, etc in a backpack up Mt Ossa. He had a camera
besides his t-shirt and shorts, on a day with a very chilly breeze and
massive clouds approaching from the west, invisible from the climb.
Yes you can RUN the OT in a day, you can do it in sandshoes, without a
tent, even sometimes without a raincoat, if you're lucky. If you're
not, you may find it a little less hospitable.
Got to say, I'd love to see the list of gear, with weights/brands/
details, for walking Pt Davey to Cockle Creek, that only weighs 6kg
(plus food, understood) - please publish it somewhere.
Cheers, and happy walking...
Mark Huonvile Tas
Roger Caffin
> This debate probably cannot be resolved.
How very true! There are too many vested interests selling expensive gear
for that.
> I know many people poo-poo Gore-Tex, but there must be a reason it
> still sells.
Marketing, LOTs of marketing. Blindly assert something 20 times (without any
proof) and people start to believe it.
> I have to say I have never felt so safe (water and wind proof),
This actually is an important part of the whole thing. If you have
confidence in your gear, born of experience, then it WILL work for you. But
if you don't have the knowledge and experience to be able to properly
choose, use and trust your gear, then maybe the best thing to do is to buy
the one with the most blatantly confident advertising and the highest price.
"I paid $400 for it: it must be good."
> howling, icy, wet, ridge-top wind.
We were wearing ultralight silnylo ponchos in a sleet storm in the fog and
snow, and felt just as confident, and adequately warm too.
> I just don't want to rely on a cheap coat to keep me alive, when I'm
> confident the expensive one will do so.
Pure marketing psychology, as I said. But you have to pay the extra cost and
carry the extra weight. I don't mind.
> The South Coast Track can be pretty ordinary, but you can always set
> off the EPIRB when you get tired, especially if you're from SA and not
> used to the dampness, distance, hills, mud, remoteness, cold, lack of
> hamburgers, lack of warm showers, missing the wife/hubby/other
> etc.....
A trend towards dangerous incompetence which I deplore. It stinks.
> Tassie operates a complimentary 'I don't like your silly/long/
> muddy bushwalk" idiot-retrieval helicopter service, so just EPIRB away
> people...;-)
I seem to recall that the last party I heard about had to pay for their
retrieval from the South Coast. About time too.
> who will help you (yes, they will) if your cheap crappy
> gear fails, so feel free to rely on someone else to sort out your
> problems for you. :-(
I am starting to wonder whether this is all tongue-in-cheek? Am I being
taken for a ride here? Is this all a vast troll?
Cheers
Roger Caffin
JAM
> I am starting to wonder whether this is all tongue-in-cheek? Am I being
> taken for a ride here? Is this all a vast troll?
>
> Cheers
> Roger Caffin
Years ago I worked in a gear shop. We had some skis come in that
would have cost $95 a pair with the normal mark up. The manager said
there was no way anybody would buy skis for $95, so he priced them at
$190. I suspect Goretext works the same way - people buy it because
it's expensive. Sort of outdoor uniform - the fact that you are
prepared to spend $800 on a rain coat to take bushwalking means you
must be a SERIOUS BUSHWALKER.
I gave up Goretex in favor of a robust umbrella years ago because I
really didin't enjoy being wet. I also carry a cheap Rainbird light
weight coat if I expect to be scrub bashing or in extreme wind. (I
sweat in it, but hardly ever use it.) This combination would be ideal
for SWT / PDT. Use the umbrella as a walking stick when it's not
raining.
JAM
simon
"JAM" <plk...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1190365470.3...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
up in the heath.
I think saying Goretex is all hype or something similar is overly
simplistic. There's Goretex and there's Goretex.
Much can also depend on how you wear the jacket, whether it has a good
pitzip system and other factors, like whether you velcro off at the wrists
or let the sleeves stay loose to allow more air movement.
There's no easy answer.
Despite everything, each their own.
JAM
I cheerfully admit that mine is a eccentric perspective. 99% of
walkers on the South Coast Track will be carrying Goretex or
equivalent. But those 99% will be wishing the rail would stop.
JAM
Garth Coghlan
to be on its last legs. Great wind-proofness but I've never really
been impressed by its water-proofness or breathability, nor its weight
(650gm). So I'm looking for a replacement, although might try that
Atsko Sports Wash and Permanent Water Guard stuff first (tried some
other brand but didn't do much, prossibly because of that remnant
detergent aspect). Spent a month on expedition in Patagonia (on the
Pacific side) and my jacket just wasn't up to the task (nor was
anybody's elses, though). Throwing an ex-army poncho (cagool) over
the top worked like a charm, though!
What I'm wondering, is what difference is there between a Peter Storm
jacket (which I'd have to buy off the net) and a Rainbird jacket
(which I can try out in a shop). Both are PU-coated, correct? So are
they much the same? 'Cause I'm not partiuclarly impressed by what
I've seen of Rainbird, although I've never worn one ...
Garth Coghlan
enough in Patagonia!!! This is for Aus use. Think I'd need something
even more hardcore if I go back there ...
Roger Caffin
http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Clothing/Accessories/Atsko%20Sport%20Wash%20and%20Water%20Guard/
for reviews.
> Throwing an ex-army poncho (cagool) over the top worked like a charm,
> though!
Antique technology, ponchos ... except that we find they work better than
parkas for walking.
> What I'm wondering, is what difference is there between a Peter Storm
> jacket (which I'd have to buy off the net) and a Rainbird jacket
> (which I can try out in a shop). Both are PU-coated, correct?
Yep, both are light PU-coated nylon.
Peter Storm have their own MVT PU-coating, but I would be hard-pressed to
say how it is different from most any other PU-coating. I dare say Rainbird
feel their fabric is just as good.
Yes, I know both PS & R fabrics seem very light compared to GoreTex. They
are very light - but they are every bit as waterproof. Under the best
conditions the Gore fabrics may breathe a bit more - but you will still get
wet up the arms, down your front, across your back ... with both fabrics.
I have found that the GoreTex membrane is very susceptible to punctures, so
just because it is heavier does not mean it is more suitable for
scrub-bashing. I found that out the expensive way. :-) Strangely, I have
found that the very light fabrics slide off much more vegetation than I had
expected.
For our 3 months walking in France we took silnylon ponchos. This is a
really light fabric! You might think the ponchos would be fragile - but they
came back undamaged. We got a lot LESS wet under them than we would have
inside parkas - because the poncho went over the pack as well, and the
ventilation was miles better. And yes, we were wearing them in the snow in
sleet as well. (I will put some pics up somewhere eventually.)
My 2c.
Cheers
Roger Caffin
Obakesan
dreadfully sorry about the very tardy reply to this thread
In article <1190365470.3...@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, JAM
<plk...@yahoo.com.au> wrote:
>$190. I suspect Goretext works the same way - people buy it because
>it's expensive. Sort of outdoor uniform - the fact that you are
I'm presently in Finland for my 3rd year. When I lived in Oz, I thought
gore-tex was just marketing dribble. But I must say that here is is
just fantastic. I highly suspect that the combination of temperature and
humidity makes it different.
I took one of my jackets back to Australia on a trip last 'winter' and found
that (as always) it didn't work as well in Australia as here.
So, I suspect that its a europe thing
:-)
See Ya
(when bandwidth gets better ;-)
Chris Eastwood
Photographer, Programmer
Motorcyclist and dingbat
please remove undies for reply
Roger Caffin
> I'm presently in Finland for my 3rd year. When I lived in Oz, I thought
> gore-tex was just marketing dribble. But I must say that here is is
> just fantastic. I highly suspect that the combination of temperature and
> humidity makes it different.
> I took one of my jackets back to Australia on a trip last 'winter' and
> found
> that (as always) it didn't work as well in Australia as here.
You got it exactly. Low external temp and very low external humidity.
But you might find that some of the good PU-coatings and other fabrics like
eVent and EPIC might also work much better under those conditions.
Sydney is the PITS for rainwear!
As an aside:
Long ago I bought an HP plotter with an electrostatic paper hold-down. It
did not work very well in my lab in Sydney, so I complained to HP. After
some research, HP came back and explained that of all the cities around the
world, Sydney was the worst for humidity - for their plotters.
In places where there was even higher humidity - Asian capitals for
instance, the buildings were all fully airconditioned and had low humidity
inside. But the Australian government was of the opinion that there was
nothing the matter with Australian conditions and government offices were
not going to be airconditioned, so there. (Checked the inside of Parliament
House recently?)
So we shuffled things around and declared most of our offices to be
laboratories instead, because it was OK to have airconditioning in labs
.........
Cheers
Roger Caffin
louphi
office branded with a nice red logo with the tas devil.
used it 49 days in a row in tassie (overland, off-track,mt anne,
arthurs,offtrack to cockle creek). cost 40 I think (i asked rebate).
wind proof +- ok.
rain proof, well i'm less wet than without (on my fleece jumper)
not a single hole, am trust me when i jumped many times from cliffs
into the scrub meters below.
hard same kind of fabric for overpants (no pants under but polyprop
thermal long sleeve "underwear") and it was completely shredded, torn
apart in pieces, i repaired some holes with strong tape...didn't last
long in the rain-mud-scrub.
i'd say: better have a strong overpants in tassie, jacket kinda ok.
about the goretex and kinda like jacket.
I do believe they work (not much water in, some vapor out) but does it
make such a big difference not using goretex (the way you feel
inside)? i dunno.
I do think goretex and expensive fabrics are a must when you go in
freezing conditions (everest, poles etc...)
yes goretex is highly advertised (thus expensive) but if it wasn't
really working, we would know they lie.
My final opinion is:it does work but ew cannot feel much difference
between it and "normal" rain/wind clothes.
So difficult, you'd need to test both at the same time and under the
same conditions (that's what they do in the labs with fabrics but hey
impossible with people are we're all different and our moods/feel/
comfort is changing over time)
Porsche is more expensive than lada. both car run fine, but maybe we
cannot feel the quality as we're some kind of animals in the bush.
And hey, being wet is part of the game in Tassie. We don't wanna say:
i've been 3 weeks in tassie, rained 2 weeks, never got wet!
ziggy99
transmission and waterproofness. Oh, and of course durability (tear
and abrasion resistance) and long term degrade rates.
Not asking much ;-)
The only w/p garments I have which would allow any kind of comparison
are overpants on the motorbike. PU coated nylon doesn't breathe and
even in mild weather you end up damp inside. There's Reissa (sp?),
some kind of hydrophilic membrane I think, that is noticeably better
in this respect but once it's humid you still get damp. Finally an
old pair of J&H Goretex duds breathe better than Reissa (and being
large and red make me look like a clown).
On the bike, as well as on foot, nothing keeps all the water out when
it's p*issing down and the wind whipping around. But riding along in
Goretex you do dry out after a while.
Obakesan
In article
<4ffdc03d-0431-4b09...@d70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ziggy99
<rs...@westnet.com.au> wrote:
>Be good to see some comparative data on windproofing, water vapour
>transmission and waterproofness. Oh, and of course durability (tear
>and abrasion resistance) and long term degrade rates.
as far as I understand the membrane is actually copied quite succesfully on a
number of other fabrics. However to obtain the 'goretex' brand you must
satisfy the company that it meets the other standards for sealing at the seams
and construction. Some brands here (catmandoo comes to mind, as does Halti)
have their own 'patented' membrane and is about 1/2 the price of brands such
as Haglofs which use GoreTex. I end up buying the Swedish and Norwegian brands
anyway as the construction of the shell and zippers seems to be better.
worth a look is
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goretex
I'm not sure about the 'electro chemistry' on those boundaries where the
'pores' are in the streched areas visible in the micrograph.
walking around in the slush here in Finland I love my Colarado gore-tex boots
too, but found them to be just plastic bags in Australia (even in winter at
Girraween) in comparison to my trusty old Garmonts (which are leather fabric
hybrids).
Trying to buy some boots back at Oz last hear I noticed that bloody everything
seemed to be designed for North American / Nth European climates (with the
mindless salespesons trying to tell me how good gore tex running shoes were).
This year there has been so little snow due to temperature changes that
walking and camping has been a frustrating and cold experience. I'm hoping
that it'll at least be good prep for next year when we're planning to do the
overland track in Tassie (preferably in winter). Hmm ... maybe I should ask a
question on that.
Ken
wrote:
> Hi
>
> In article
> <4ffdc03d-0431-4b09...@d70g2000hsb.googlegroups.com>, ziggy99
> <rs...@westnet.com.au> wrote:
> >Be good to see some comparative data on windproofing, water vapour
> >transmission and waterproofness. Oh, and of course durability (tear
> >and abrasion resistance) and long term degrade rates.
>
> as far as I understand the membrane is actually copied quite succesfully on a
> number of other fabrics. However to obtain the 'goretex' brand you must
> satisfy the company that it meets the other standards for sealing at the
> seams
> and construction.
The patents have expired on the membrane so anyone can make a similar material
although I think they still have some patents on refinements to the process.
What they have is the trademark and this limits how other manufacturerers can
describe their own fabrics. You can't describe a fabric as Gore-Tex unless it is
Gore-Tex made by Gore.
Roger Caffin
> on a
> number of other fabrics.
> However to obtain the 'goretex' brand you must
> satisfy the company that it meets the other standards for sealing at the
> seams
> and construction.
Not quite correct. To be licensed to purchase Goretex fabric you have to
have your manufacturing process approved. This includes the seam sealing.
Nonetheless, it is possible to buy GoreTex fabric in small quantities.
> worth a look is
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goretex
I am sure Wikipedia is a wonderful idea, but the entry for Goretex is
inaccurate and in places misleading. The picture of the construction of
Goretex fabric is VERY misleading.
More information is available on the FAQ.
> Trying to buy some boots back at Oz last hear I noticed that bloody
> everything
> seemed to be designed for North American / Nth European climates (with the
> mindless salespesons trying to tell me how good gore tex running shoes
> were).
Snicker. With you there!
But GTX joggers are useful in the snow on snowshoes.
Cheers
Roger Caffin
www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/
waffl...@gmail.com
You have really great and helpful knowledge. It is disappointing that you seem to hold so much bitterness and passive aggression within you that you load your replies with condescension and smugness and seem to want to humiliate people, Not so much in this last post, but throughout this thread and others you really seem to want to be quite simply mean to people who you feel know less about the topic than you. The fact that they know is exactly why they come onto a site like this. Why not just offer help, rather than offloading with such superiority and passive-aggression?
anthon...@gmail.com
Yes, Goretex (or similar breathable rainproof material) is defintely worth paying a bit more for. I've done several 10 day trips in Tassie and NZ where there was a lot of rain and have stayed reasonably dry where I was covered by Goretex even in all-day rain.
Drizabones are probably fine if you're riding a horse or motor bike in the high country, but when you're exercising I think you'd get hot and sweat inside it - making you wet. So if the water doesn't come from outside it will get you from inside. Hence the need for a breathable fabric when hiking or riding a bicycle.
My original Goretex jacket finally stopped keeping me dry after about 20 years of service, so I bought a similar breathable non-goretex fabric for my next jacket, and that's been good too.
Also, having zips in the under arm area is a good idea with these jackets as it lets you perspire more easily. Also unless you're also getting goretex pants, I'd recommend a long jacket that would cover your shorts too.
Anthony.